1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,640 Everybody, Tom Woods here, it's episode 26108 of the Tom Woods 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,760 show and I got all Keith Knight back here with us. 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,240 You might notice by the way, that this week there are, you 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,400 know, I, I used to do 5 episodes a week of the Tom Woods show and 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,600 then I thought, well, I'd rather do slightly longer ones that, 6 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:20,880 you know, but produce fewer of them. 7 00:00:21,240 --> 00:00:23,640 And because I just felt like that on balance was a better 8 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:25,960 mix. So I started to do that, but 9 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,120 last week I did only two. They're a long, long story. 10 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,320 And now I could have just moved on, You know, I had. 11 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:32,560 I've produced over 2600 of these. 12 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:34,200 No one's going to notice if I miss one. 13 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,480 But it's just the way I am. Keith, I'm doing 4 this week, 14 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:39,680 you know, to make up for it. So that on average, it's still 15 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:41,480 3A week. So in any case, anybody's 16 00:00:41,480 --> 00:00:44,960 confused about what's going on, it's because of your Tom Wood 17 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,880 show deficit last week that you have a surplus this week. 18 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:51,040 Anyway, Keith Knight is managing editor at the Libertarian 19 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:56,800 Institute, and I want to talk to him about, you know, one of our 20 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:01,320 most maligned and yet at the same time most beloved and 21 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,720 celebrated and accomplished and influential and important 22 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,480 figures. And that is Hans Herman Hapa, a 23 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,480 name you've probably heard whose books you probably, I mean, 24 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,120 you're just going on averages here, probably have not read, 25 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:17,080 but we all know them from the memes, basically. 26 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,720 But that's that's about it. Anyway, Keith, welcome back. 27 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,560 Great to have you. Tom, thanks so much for having 28 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,880 me and letting me on to talk about one of my intellectual 29 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,840 heroes. All right, so we're going to 30 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,160 talk a little bit about the the books now. 31 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,280 Hans Hapa is a is a polarizing figure polarizing. 32 00:01:35,960 --> 00:01:40,080 I got, I think I probably first met him about over 30 years ago 33 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,000 actually. And one of the great, one of the 34 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,520 great things about the in 2017, the one thousandth episode of 35 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,400 the Tom Woods Show, is that before I came out, we ran this 36 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:54,200 montage of congratulatory messages from people in our 37 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,840 movement. So we had Kane, you know, the 38 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,280 former wrestler Kane, Glenn Jacobs, we had Peter Schiff, we 39 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:04,880 had Judge Napolitano, we had Ron Paul, and we had Hans Hoppa. 40 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,880 We had others too, but Hans Hoppa was one of them. 41 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,560 And when Hans's face appeared on that screen, that room 42 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,800 absolutely erupted. And and he was congratulating me 43 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,440 on, you know, all the work I had done over the years and that I 44 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,640 should keep it up and keep smashing the enemy. 45 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,680 And when I when he said those words, they went even crazier. 46 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:31,920 So, you know, I did an episode on Hans Hoppa years ago with 47 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:34,120 Stefan Kinsella, who's a great student of Hans. 48 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,120 And I said at the beginning of that episode that Hans is in 49 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:43,640 some way, some ways like Karl Marx in that Karl Marx, his both 50 00:02:43,640 --> 00:02:46,800 his admirers and his detractors share one thing in common. 51 00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:48,240 They've never read a word he wrote. 52 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:51,600 You know, they're arguing what they've heard other people say 53 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,360 about him. They're arguing about what they 54 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,200 think he believes. But they, you know, he asked 55 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:58,840 what what was, you know, they at least they might know the names 56 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,000 of of Marx's books. You ask somebody, well. 57 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:02,840 What's? The name of of the most 58 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,480 influential Hans Hoffa book you know, you might have might as 59 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:07,520 well have asked them to, you know, to speak to you in 60 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,120 Chinese. So. 61 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,000 So let's talk about books, for instance, because first of all, 62 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:17,720 Hans is, he's an economist, but he's also a libertarian theorist 63 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:22,320 and philosopher. And he's written widely on a a a 64 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,840 variety of subjects in economics. 65 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:29,360 You know, everything from Keynesianism to public goods 66 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,320 theory. But he's also written about 67 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,280 theoretical questions in economics like, like the, in 68 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,360 other words, the theory behind economics, the method of 69 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,240 economics. So he's written, he's done work 70 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:48,120 on, on positivism in the social sciences and why the Austrian 71 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,640 method is to be preferred. So he's but, but he's also 72 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:55,080 written works of applying theory to history. 73 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,640 He's he's done an awful lot. But, but you say he's an 74 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,320 intellectual hero of yours. How did you get to use a British 75 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,920 expression? Stuck into his work? 76 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,000 It was. Probably just going about things 77 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:14,160 saying I am interested in, you know, just getting a lot of bang 78 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,600 for my buck, whether I agree or disagree with it. 79 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,680 I had come out of 12 years of government education and I was 80 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,160 just so bored. I said just at least give me 81 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,040 something to love or hate. Just stop wasting my time. 82 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:30,120 And when I came across how productive 1 short article, I 83 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,360 want to say it's like this four page article, I think he titled 84 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,920 it the ultimate justification for the private property ethic. 85 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,800 It's just completely lays out a totally coherent view of the 86 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:44,720 world, whether you agree or disagree with it. 87 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:48,400 And it's his intellectual explanation for argumentation 88 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:53,960 ethics, saying by using violence or by using argument, we can 89 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:58,280 extrapolate principles about how to act in, one, our everyday 90 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:02,200 life and two, what principles we should have for other people. 91 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:07,240 So I think I just wanted to read a bunch of, I wanted to look at 92 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,560 the smartest people I knew, see who they recommended. 93 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,960 I came across a bunch of names. But once I started reading some 94 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,160 of Hans Hapa's work, I said, I feel like I'm getting a lot of 95 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,160 bang for my buck. Every single page I hear an 96 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:24,520 argument that's totally new or learn a way of thinking or a 97 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,040 concept. I was going through my notes of 98 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:29,320 things that I wanted to bring up. 99 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,440 And this one just really stood out to me. 100 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,960 So right now you have a lot of progressives who for maybe the 101 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,200 last 1020 years of their life have been actively saying we 102 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,800 need to tack the rich more. The state needs to grow. 103 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:45,760 They need more regulatory powers. 104 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,080 And now this institution, which they have said needs more power 105 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,360 and money, they're accusing it of committing genocide in Gaza. 106 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,800 You'd think there'd be a little more moment of reflection about 107 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,400 the nature of the state that they've been advocating the 108 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:04,200 growth of for so long. They seem to think that there's, 109 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,800 you know, one point of view where the state is peaceful and 110 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:09,600 that's what they want. And then there's a violent 111 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,960 state, which they're against. My favorite Hans Hop, a quote if 112 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,600 I had to say is from economy, society and history. 113 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:20,280 He says 1st, we should recognize that institutions such as states 114 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:24,840 show a natural aggressiveness. The explanation is very simple. 115 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,240 If you have to fund your own aggressive adventures yourself 116 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:32,000 out of your own pocket, that will somewhat curtail your 117 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,360 natural inclination to fight other people because you have to 118 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,000 pay for it yourself. On the other hand, if you 119 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:41,960 imagine that if I want to fight some of you guys and I can tax 120 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,960 him or him or ask him to support me in my fighting endeavors, 121 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,880 then whatever my initial aggressive impulses might be are 122 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:55,560 certainly stimulated because I can externalize the cost of war 123 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,360 onto other people. I don't have to bear the cost 124 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,440 myself. Other people have to bear the 125 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,920 cost. This explains why institutions 126 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,320 that have the power to tax, and also institutions that have the 127 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:10,840 power to print money in later ages have financial abilities 128 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:14,000 that make it more likely that they will go to war. 129 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,400 Then you would go to war if the power to tax attacks was lacking 130 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,400 or the power to print money was lacking on your part. 131 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,960 Once I heard stuff like that, I'm just like, Oh well of course 132 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,680 all the fights we see are between big governments and it's 133 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,680 not Americans and Russians are really wanting to go to war with 134 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:34,240 each other, but the government's there to keep the peace, are 135 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,840 backing us away. It's always governments pushing 136 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:38,520 populations into these conflicts. 137 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,840 Brilliant ideas like that is what first made me come across 138 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,800 on Tapa and then get addicted to the stimulant. 139 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,560 Let me give away or let me say what I think people should do in 140 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,880 terms of, of reading and then I'll, I'll share a few thoughts 141 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,720 also. So the the first book to read is 142 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:58,960 a theory of socialism and capitalism. 143 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,440 The second book to read is the economics and ethics of private 144 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:04,400 property. I don't care how boring that 145 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,080 title sounds, the the contents of that book will just knock 146 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,360 your socks off because it, it explains the world. 147 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:13,960 I mean, it basically explains why the world is the way it is 148 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:17,240 and what the incentives are and why these what we see is the 149 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,360 natural outcome of that. And then what we might do about 150 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,240 it. And then the only thirdly, 151 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,240 democracy, the God that failed, even though that one is so juicy 152 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:27,560 and it's so full of controversial things and you 153 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,360 want to start there, But I say work your way up to that. 154 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,080 That's the dessert, the meal, you know, the, the meat and 155 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,559 potatoes is the other two books. But I will say in the democracy 156 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,960 book, there's an insight that that a lot of the sophisticated, 157 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,800 and I say that mockingly sophisticated libertarians 158 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,360 didn't like hearing and they they scoffed at. 159 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,520 But it's actually a great insight about democracy versus 160 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,400 monarchy. Now, Hans is not a monarch. 161 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:58,720 He's not and he doesn't support monarchy. 162 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,120 But his point was this, that what you have with a democracy, 163 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,880 think of it this way. What you have is a series of 164 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:11,160 caretakers, temporary caretakers who for four or eight-year terms 165 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:16,840 are in charge of, you know, the, the, the state apparatus with a 166 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,680 monarch. There's a, there's a, there's a, 167 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,840 a different series of incentives because the monarch can hand the 168 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:28,520 realm down to an heir. So in effect, he's like a 169 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,720 private property owner. So what would you expect to 170 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:33,720 happen? Now, it's true you can get some 171 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:37,400 crazy lunatic being the king, but as Hans says, you might also 172 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,840 get a a harmless dilettante, which you almost never do in a 173 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,320 modern democracy. You always get some sinister 174 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:47,400 person and and that person is presiding over a series of 175 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,200 interest groups that are at war with the the you know, the 176 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,040 general good and you can never seem to uproot any of them. 177 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,360 And it's you know, all all that. But that doesn't seem to happen 178 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,400 under as much under monarchs because they they have no 179 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,600 particular interest in destroying the country, saddling 180 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:11,200 it with unpayable debt, engaging in Total War that leads to 181 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:15,200 widespread debt, death and destruction, because then 182 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,360 they're leaving a basket case to their heir. 183 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,480 And so when you think about it that way, think about how would 184 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:23,320 you govern if you knew your son was going to take over the thing 185 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,160 someday versus how would you govern if you knew you had four 186 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:31,680 years only or eight years? And you want to do not 187 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:34,560 necessarily what's in the long term interests of the long term 188 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:38,480 capital value of the place, but you want to do short term things 189 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,080 that might, you know, benefit your political party, that might 190 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:44,360 make it more likely your political party gets votes. 191 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:46,560 What kinds of policies you expect to see. 192 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:48,240 And then he goes and does a comparison. 193 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,400 So well, let's look at some 19th century societies and let's 194 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,320 compare them. Let's compare them in terms of 195 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,400 size of the bureaucracy, size of the national debt. 196 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,600 And he goes down all and he says it's exactly how you would 197 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,680 expect it to be, that the incentives and of democracy and 198 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:08,480 the incentives of a monarch are not aligned because of this set 199 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,440 of interests. Now I, I know we're supposed 200 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:11,880 because we live in the United States. 201 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,720 Most people listening to this, so we laugh at how could people 202 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,600 have been so foolish as to believe in a monarchy? 203 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,200 Ha, ha, ha, ha. I get that. 204 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:19,840 But you got to get all that out of your head for a minute. 205 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:24,000 Just think about what, what are the incentives of somebody who 206 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,080 passes the realm down versus somebody who's just there on a 207 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:28,960 temporary basis? It's like with a rental car. 208 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,960 Nobody washes a rental car. Nobody gets an oil change for a 209 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:37,920 rental car, you know, and maybe you even very marginally Dr. the 210 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,920 rental car more recklessly, even without realizing it. 211 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:42,840 It's not yours. You don't have to deal with the 212 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,040 long term loss of the thing. But if that's your car, you're 213 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:49,480 darn right you're going to go over that speed bump carefully. 214 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,960 You're going to get that oil change at the regular at the 215 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,040 regular time. You're going to put the top 216 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:55,920 notch gasoline. And if it calls for that. 217 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,160 So that's that's that's just one of the many points that he makes 218 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,640 in that book. But that's a valuable point. 219 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:03,720 It really is. Doesn't mean you have to be a 220 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:05,200 monarch. It means you have to understand 221 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,560 it. It's it's good to understand 222 00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:10,400 democracy better. What immediately comes to mind 223 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,600 for a lot of people who at least try to address this is well, you 224 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,840 libertarians are always saying the free market's good because 225 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:22,280 there's a competition. Yet one of your guys is 226 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,800 advocating not the competition of democracy, he's advocating 227 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,160 monarchy. And you idiots just fell for 228 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:30,600 this. HOPPA of course addresses this 229 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:35,280 where he says what we want is competition in goods and not 230 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,240 competition in bads. So it's very good to have 231 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,800 competitions and who can make the best computer, who can serve 232 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:44,880 the best food, who can provide the best service, who can 233 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:46,680 provide the most fuel efficient car? 234 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,160 What's not good is to have competition in bads. 235 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,240 We do not want to have a competition. 236 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,560 And who can kidnap the most people? 237 00:12:54,560 --> 00:12:56,360 Let's have a competition on that. 238 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,520 That would be competition and bads in which you would 239 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,000 incentivize more bad things to happen. 240 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,920 He says. He he makes a very good point in 241 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:09,520 the book where he says the average person does not have the 242 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:15,160 time to get so involved in politics, to do all the research 243 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,360 and inform themselves on Ukraine, Gaza, antitrust, 244 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,960 minimum wage laws, agricultural subsidies, the truth about 245 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,560 Herbert Hoover's administration, that that's just too much. 246 00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:28,280 So what do they do? They listen to someone who can 247 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:32,120 sort of arouse the passions of the feeble minded, and that 248 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,800 tends to be the demagogues who promise ever more and more 249 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,240 increasing encroachments on the private property rights of other 250 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,480 people. They promise you more and more 251 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,480 and more. I mean, just I, I cannot imagine 252 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,760 that anyone today, looking at the current situation, I think 253 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,680 the government spent $6.27 trillion in 2022. 254 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,000 Their approach to this is the government doesn't have enough 255 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,760 money. And meanwhile we have someone 256 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:04,880 who for two years, President Biden didn't care to call 257 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:09,560 Vladimir Putin or Sergey Lavrov while waging A proxy war against 258 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,040 Russia, 6000 nukes, didn't care to call the other person. 259 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,400 These are people with such a high time preference. 260 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,240 I don't know how much they think about the next week or the next 261 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,040 month or the next year. You see this totally psychotic 262 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,360 behavior as a causal result of democracy. 263 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:28,480 One of my favorite quotes from the book. 264 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,600 There are those who recognize, correctly, that the problem lay 265 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,080 with monopoly, not with elites or nobility. 266 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,240 But they were far outnumbered by those who erroneously blamed it 267 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,800 on the elitist character of the rulers instead, and who 268 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,960 accordingly strove to maintain the monopoly of law and law 269 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,880 enforcement and merely replaced the king and the visible royal 270 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:57,840 pomp by the people and the presumed modesty and decency of 271 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:02,320 the common man. Hence the historic success of 272 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,160 democracy. So he says. 273 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,040 People thought the problem with kings is the crown and the 274 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,680 palace and the carelessness and the pomp. 275 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,960 The reality is they had a monopoly on the judicial system. 276 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,680 They were the final arbiter in all cases and all disputes, 277 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,040 including disputes with the crown itself. 278 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,560 So this is the problem that he's trying to bring to light. 279 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,600 I love that book. All right, let's let's talk 280 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,960 about now if you, if you, you know, I, I went back and 281 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,640 listened to this Stefan Kinsella episode and he corrected me in 282 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,160 an area where he shouldn't have corrected me. 283 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,200 I I now realize I was telling him that Hans is excellent on 284 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:38,960 the so-called public goods argument. 285 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,240 Now he agrees with me on that, of course, but there, there are 286 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,840 certain category, there's a certain category of goods that 287 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,680 can't be provided by the free market and they they satisfy 288 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,720 certain criteria. And that's how we can identify 289 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,640 them as as public goods. And, and Hans points out that 290 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,880 the whole model of that is just sloppy. 291 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,320 It's obviously just an after the fact rationalization of what the 292 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:04,480 state wants to do Anyway, there is actually no way to isolate 293 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:07,000 these particular goods as being public goods. 294 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:08,640 And he explains this whole thing. 295 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,840 But but that is so we were talking about the book a theory 296 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,120 of socialism and capitalism. And Stephen said, oh, well, 297 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:16,640 that's not in that book. That's in another book. 298 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:17,720 Wrong. Stephen. 299 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,760 Chapter 10 is on public goods. Hans is great on this. 300 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:27,120 You've never seen a treatment of public goods like Hans's in any, 301 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,680 you know, economics textbook that, that's for sure. 302 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,840 But let's say a brief thing, even though I've done an episode 303 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,200 on this and it is controversial and he does have critics on 304 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,080 this, but he also, you know, there are also responses to the 305 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,240 critics. We'll say just say a little 306 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,120 something about argumentation ethics, because the idea of that 307 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,680 stated very simply is if you and I are standing there arguing 308 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:53,520 about what the best, what you know, let's say what the best 309 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,320 social system is, and I'm arguing for a pure private 310 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,320 property society and you're arguing for some alternative. 311 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,760 Hans would say there's something, I hate to use the 312 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:08,720 word meta, but there's something fundamental about the framework 313 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,880 of of our very argument that speaks volumes. 314 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:15,720 He says, notice that we're not trying to resolve this matter by 315 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:17,119 clocking each other over the head. 316 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,560 What are we doing? We're standing here reasoning to 317 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,040 see who has the more persuasive argument, and indeed, in 318 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,119 standing there we are presuming that the opponent we're talking 319 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:31,960 to has the right to his body, which he's using, and his vocal 320 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:33,720 cords, which he's using to argue with. 321 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:35,640 This is presumed in the course of an argument. 322 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,680 If it weren't, it would be a physical altercation. 323 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:39,520 But it's not. We're not. 324 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:42,640 We understand that if we're having an argument that one 325 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:46,040 person has his bodily integrity and uses it to advance his 326 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:51,760 claims and is also entitled to standing room, can we presume 327 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:53,800 that this is with the consent of the owner? 328 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:59,000 But, but these these features of argumentation, he says, if we 329 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,400 extrapolate from the norms that we take for granted when we're 330 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,560 arguing, we realize that these are actually the norms of a 331 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:08,000 private property society and that we're implicitly agreeing 332 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,080 to them in the very course of arguing with each other. 333 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,600 Now there are people who've said, oh, well, I can't be that 334 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,960 simple, Hans. Oh yeah, I've got 27 caveats to 335 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:18,240 this. And I I don't mean to ridicule 336 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,320 everybody who's been a critic. I have dear friends who've been 337 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:26,840 a critic of Hans on this, but what Murray Rothbard loved about 338 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:31,480 it was it was just that was just a hardcore approach, he said. 339 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,560 He said. My old natural rights approach 340 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:38,560 seems positively wimpy compared to this robust assertion by by 341 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,880 Hans Hopp. Yeah, taking something that 342 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:47,160 people already engage in necessarily much like it seems 343 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,080 very highly motivated by Mises starting point with economics. 344 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,560 He's like, all right, before discussing gross domestic 345 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,400 product, let's start with the fact that humans act. 346 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,440 Can we at least agree on that? And you could say, no, humans 347 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,600 don't act, but you're engaged in a performative contradiction. 348 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,520 So by the very nature of engaging in argumentation, and 349 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:12,400 he refers to it as employing the scarce resources of 1's body 350 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,360 that they've rightly acquired through homesteading. 351 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,800 Not because I worked really hard to be born. 352 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,880 You could say you are the homesteader of your body, 353 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,560 therefore with regard to others, you have a better claim to it. 354 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,840 And he just takes that principle and extrapolates it. 355 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,400 This is very different than someone who just inherently 356 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,160 believes in democracy. And most people who believe in 357 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,440 democracy, that necessarily means that the vast majority of 358 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,440 governments that have ever existed are inherently 359 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,960 illegitimate. So they're almost with us in the 360 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,880 case against the state there. What I think is really important 361 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:50,040 in a theory of socialism and capitalism is when he defines 362 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,160 the terms that that he's going about. 363 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,720 So he says capitalism, a lot of people would just associate it. 364 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:01,240 Capitalism means a greed doggy dog and making a lot of money. 365 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,960 The problem with this immediately is, are politicians 366 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,360 and teachers a bunch of unpaid volunteers? 367 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:12,240 Are people in socialist societies totally equal in the 368 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,640 amount of social status and the amount of monetary assets that 369 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,440 they have with regard to their populations? 370 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,760 Of course not. There's inequality, there's 371 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,240 exploitation and all these socialist regimes. 372 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,000 So how can we actually define this? 373 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,920 He defines capitalism as a social system based on the 374 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,880 explicit recognition of private property and non aggressive 375 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,520 contractual exchanges with private property owners. 376 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,680 Communism is the abolition of private property, and socialism 377 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:44,800 is the degree of aggressiveness against the private property 378 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,360 ethic. He defines it. 379 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:49,680 I'm sorry, the institutionalized aggression against private 380 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:51,640 property. That's his brief explanation of 381 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:57,400 socialism. So this rightly addresses what 382 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,080 national socialism and democratic socialism have in 383 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,160 common. This is why they're immoral. 384 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,000 They have a certain degree of aggressiveness against private 385 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,600 property and contractual exchanges with private property 386 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,680 owners. So really getting a good 387 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:17,400 definition is what I really is, something that really helped me 388 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:22,000 see a lot of policies much more clearly than I otherwise would 389 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,520 have. And with this principled hatred 390 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:29,120 of the state, it makes it much more likely to get people on 391 00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:32,080 board, I think. Because as he says, you can 392 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:36,400 always say, well, that didn't work that time because that was 393 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,360 Castro's vision of it. Well, that was Stalin's vision 394 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:41,880 of it. Well, that was Napoleon's vision 395 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,480 of such a thing. But hating the state on the 396 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,000 principle that it's a naturally aggressive entity seeking to 397 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,160 maintain a monopoly on law and order, that's what makes it 398 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:52,520 immoral. That's what makes it 399 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,600 economically inefficient because it doesn't engage with the 400 00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:58,960 principle of contractual obligations with others. 401 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,320 You know, let. Me say a little something here 402 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:07,600 about Hans and his he has an article called Marxist and 403 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,240 Austrian Class Analysis. I'm almost sure that's the name 404 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:15,720 of it. And the, the gist of it is this 405 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:22,000 he, he says that that Marxist analysis is, is wrong because 406 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:27,400 it's, it pinpoints the wrong sources, the wrong source of, of 407 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,960 injustice. But it's not wrong in saying 408 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,760 that there's injustice. And you know, now in this day 409 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,960 and age where we have to deal with people who use this 410 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,480 ridiculous expression, the woke, right? 411 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,200 You're woke, right? If you say that, you know, 412 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,000 there, there are, you know, there are classes that are 413 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,400 antagonistic to each other or there are groups that are 414 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,000 antagonistic to each other or whatever because you're just 415 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,040 like Marx, OK. But you know what? 416 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,920 The classical liberals had class analysis before there was a Karl 417 00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,720 Marx. That was their idea. 418 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:05,200 But Hans's point would be to say that the relevant classes are 419 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,720 the oppressed proletariat and the oppressing bourgeoisie is 420 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,520 just block headed. What the classical liberals said 421 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:17,040 about class, which we know, and this is Ralph Rico has a great 422 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:18,960 study of this from the 19th century. 423 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:21,840 But they looked at it in terms of the your relationship with 424 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:26,160 the state. And so you had in effect what 425 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,160 John C Calhoun talked about the the tax consumer and the 426 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,000 taxpayer that there is. There's one group that is 427 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,080 getting benefits at the expense of another group, coerced 428 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,400 benefits at the expense of another group. 429 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,160 That is a, that is an abusive relationship. 430 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,480 That is an abusive class relationship. 431 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,440 That I belong to the class of taxpayer and you belong to the 432 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,080 class of tax consumer. So that the entire bureaucracy 433 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,240 that's sitting at around doing God knows what all day, they are 434 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,680 tax consumers. And if I'm going to think in 435 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,560 terms of classes, which is no, there's no inherent reason that 436 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,120 that should be bad. There's nothing wrong with 437 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,720 thinking that way as long as you identify the right ones. 438 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,040 You know, I mean, there's nothing wrong with thinking 439 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,600 about friends and enemies as long as you identify the right 440 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,160 people in each category. And so Hans says, look, there is 441 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,640 exploitation in the world. So Marx is right about that. 442 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,480 But he is silly to say that the exploitation is occurring when 443 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,720 the proletariat is employed for quote, less than the value of 444 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,200 their labor. And all that says, no, the the 445 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,920 capitalist serves a purpose. The capitalist advances them the 446 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,360 money that they get in their wages so they don't have to sit 447 00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:43,400 around and wait the six months for the goods they produce to 448 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,120 actually be sold to the end consumer. 449 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,760 They could do that. They could quit their jobs and 450 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,760 they could run their own business and they could sit 451 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,280 around and not have income until all their work is done and the 452 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:53,800 product sells to the general public. 453 00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:56,400 Most people would are a little bit more impatient than that. 454 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,920 So they would rather allow the capitalist a small premium in 455 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:02,400 exchange for being advanced the money. 456 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,520 Now that's simply time preference. 457 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,360 That's the economic principle of time preference. 458 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,040 I'd rather have that money that today than the same sum of money 459 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:12,960 at some point, the indefinite future. 460 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,800 And so yes, there is exploitation. 461 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,480 Marx is right to say that there's exploitation, but he's 462 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:23,080 wrong to to in in that he he's wrong in, in where he pinpoints 463 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,360 the the exploitation. The exploitation is the state 464 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,200 versus everybody else. The state exploits everybody 465 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,880 else by by interacting with everybody coercively and 466 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,560 expropriating people and taking property without their consent 467 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,680 or, you know, taking property violently in effect or with the 468 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,760 threat of violence. That's exploitation, not 469 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,400 voluntary labor contracts. Exploitation is when there is 470 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,840 there's no voluntary aspect to it whatsoever. 471 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,040 And so, so he continues to go through various layers of 472 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:59,040 Marxist analysis to say it's not that the analysis is absolutely 473 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,760 wrong, it's that in every single case, you can rely on this guy 474 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,640 to be so wrong headed that he gets the protagonists and 475 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,360 antagonists all wrong. So there's nothing wrong with 476 00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:09,960 that. There's nothing wrong. 477 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,640 There's nothing wrong with that. That, that I mean, that happens 478 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,840 to be, happens to be right. So, so that is a, that's a very 479 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:18,440 interesting fact. I have a friend who was a 480 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,280 recovering Marxist. I handed him this article by 481 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,880 Hans Hoffa and he's he really helped him. 482 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,200 It really helped us. All right, so there, you know, 483 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,600 I, I did sense something was wrong with the world. 484 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,680 Yes. And I was not wrong to sense 485 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:31,840 that something was wrong with the world. 486 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,480 And I was not wrong to sense that some groups are screwing 487 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,120 the hell out of other groups. I just misidentified them. 488 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,520 That was definitely one that really woke me up. 489 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:48,160 If you say that the problem is the people who are engaging 490 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,280 contractually and the people who are really on your side are the 491 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,840 proletarians who are ready to riot at any point of people like 492 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:01,200 Luigi who are willing to assassinate people, you need to 493 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,840 really alive with those people. Not businessmen who have 494 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,800 drastically decreased the cost of products and services and 495 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,560 given you access to more goods and services your grandparents 496 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,440 could have ever dreamed of. No, by offering you a product or 497 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,360 service, they are exploiting you. 498 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,400 That's the real villain in the world. 499 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,600 Well, if the problem is, well, they're taking your surplus 500 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,160 value, but it doesn't address the fact that it's voluntary. 501 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,800 By this metric, every stay at home mom is exploiting the 502 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,120 surplus value of her husband. If you work for a company that's 503 00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:38,800 not profitable, you're exploiting their surplus value 504 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,880 because they're not profiting off your labor, you're profiting 505 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,040 off them. It is just so absolutely 506 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,160 ridiculous that people ever fell for this. 507 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,920 And the ones making the case for egalitarianism and the 508 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,400 importance of equality and not having too much institutional 509 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,720 power with some people rather than others, well, I guess they 510 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,960 just hate the idea that there's a natural aristocracy, that some 511 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:04,400 people are just better than others. 512 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,320 Very few people can sing a song as good as Adele. 513 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,080 Very few people are as funny as Jerry Seinfeld. 514 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,080 Also, very few people are as brilliant as Jeff Bezos or Steve 515 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,760 Jobs and can run a company as efficiently that can produce so 516 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,440 much wealth for so many people. So I guess this hatred of 517 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,920 egalitarianism, which he has an interesting insight on, it might 518 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,760 have originally come from Lou Rockwell, but he summarizes it 519 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,840 great In getting libertarianism right, He says the egalitarian 520 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,120 doctrine achieved this status not because it is true, but 521 00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:40,240 because it provides the perfect intellectual cover for the drive 522 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,040 toward totalitarian social control by a ruling elite. 523 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,280 In other words, egalitarianism's impossible. 524 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,320 So at any point in history, so long as humans exist with a 525 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,360 natural inequality among man, there's always going to be 526 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,680 inequality, which means there will always be another 527 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,360 justification to grow the state. Would you have imagined 528 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,560 explaining to socialists like the George Bernard Shaw 529 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:08,680 Socialists of the world, hey, by the year 2024, the government is 530 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,120 going to be heavily democratic and it's going to spend 531 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,120 trillions of dollars a year in welfare. 532 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,400 He would have thought this was the fact that this is happening 533 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,680 in America, the evil capitalist, colonialist America. 534 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,400 What a victory. Turns out they are less grateful 535 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,560 than ever before. You never get thanked for paying 536 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,680 your taxes. To even talk about school choice 537 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,280 is to be so evil it you just want to defund schools. 538 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,280 They're so ungrateful in this strive towards egalitarianism 539 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,680 that you end up with massive inequality between the rulers 540 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,760 and the ruled, and they're not even happy about it. 541 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,360 So the fool's errand of egalitarianism, the idiocy of 542 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,720 Marxist exploitation theory of the world, I thought, is very 543 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,440 vitally important as well. It's interesting that you make 544 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,840 that point about egalitarianism being something that the state 545 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:06,040 apparatus and the people in it don't necessarily believe in. 546 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:11,160 It's just that that's an idea that empowers them to intervene 547 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,360 in in our lives forever because it the ideal, so-called will 548 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,160 never be reached because that was Sam Francis's view. 549 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,280 And Sam Francis is like a, an ancestor of the, of the, I don't 550 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,560 know, the new right or whatever a term it is. 551 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,200 He was a, a newspaper columnist who, you know, had, you know, 552 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,520 hard right positions. And he said his view was nobody 553 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:35,200 believes in egalitarianism like that. 554 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,120 Absolutely nobody would. This is all this is a charade. 555 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,320 They claim to believe in it, but they know it's false. 556 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:47,480 But it, it, it sure gives them sinecures and privilege and, you 557 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,720 know, positions of power. And some people weren't quite 558 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,640 sure they, some people thought, you know, I do think some people 559 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,240 do believe in egalitarianism. You know, some of them really do 560 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,640 believe in it. But others, no doubt, are 561 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,560 cynically manipulating, you know, others through this, this 562 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:04,640 idea. So. 563 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,760 So tell me, tell me what else you got in your notes, because I 564 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:08,560 don't want to let your notes go to waste. 565 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,560 I mean you, you put time into those notes. 566 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:16,280 Well, I loved his this quote from the Libertarian quest for a 567 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:20,800 grand historical narrative. So, he says, because the general 568 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,440 public is not used to or capable of abstract reasoning, high 569 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,360 theory and intellectual consistency, but forms its 570 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,120 political views and convictions on the basis of historical 571 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,120 narratives, IE of prevailing interpretations of past events. 572 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,160 It is upon those who want to change things for the better 573 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,200 liberal libertarian future to challenge and correct such 574 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:48,640 interpretations and propose and promote alternative revisionist 575 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,920 historical narratives. The guy who immediately comes to 576 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,920 mind is Burt Folsom. How he totally changed the way I 577 00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,040 saw all of history rather than, well, there were the rich and 578 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,400 the poor. You hear Elon Musk has been 579 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,520 called a robber Baron more times than I think I've ever heard 580 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,760 Vanderbilt called it, just in the last couple weeks. 581 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,640 Bezos, another robber Baron. And what makes them a robber 582 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,760 Baron when they're very rich and the rich or the bad group? 583 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:19,480 Folsom says we need to differentiate between market 584 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,400 entrepreneurs and political entrepreneurs, people who gain 585 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,480 their wealth causal result of contract lowering prices and 586 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,200 getting a bigger mass market for things. 587 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,840 This includes Henry Ford's work with the Model T, John D 588 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,520 Rockefeller drastically decreasing the price of oil, 589 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:40,000 Cornelius Vanderbilt giving people access to steamship and 590 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:45,520 railroad travel that only kings of the past had access to today. 591 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,600 People like Steve Jobs and Jeff Bezos who have gained in Sam 592 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,600 Walton, who have gained a lot of wealth and high status as a 593 00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,400 causal result of providing not yachts to billionaires, but 594 00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:01,480 products and services that everyone really appreciates and 595 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,160 are able to increase their material well-being. 596 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,120 So that that was another one, the importance of us having a 597 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:13,960 theory of history and a way to analyze historical events. 598 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,360 What do you recommend people do They they say, I understand this 599 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,320 Hans Hopper guy. Which of the first step they 600 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:25,440 take be actually, you know what, let's pause that question. 601 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,240 Well, we'll come back to that question right now. 602 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,400 The Libertarian Institute, which does great work. 603 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,960 It it published, among other things, my book Diary of a 604 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,320 Psychosis, and made my life a billion times easier thereby. 605 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,320 It's run by Scott Horton and several other people we all 606 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,600 love. Say a word about that and what's 607 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:47,040 going on there. And let's let's get back to 608 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,760 Hansop. Right now the Libertarian 609 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,680 Institute is having our 2025 fundraiser. 610 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,200 This allows us to have Scott Horton take two years to write 611 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,880 an 800 page book Provoked explaining the origins of the 612 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,160 current proxy war between the nuclear powers taking place in 613 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:12,719 Ukraine and Russia. Unfortunately, it unfortunately, 614 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,199 it takes about two years for something like that to get 615 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:18,400 written and we have to pay the bills in the meantime. 616 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,080 But it resulted in one of my favorite debates ever where 617 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,800 Scott Horton was able to get on the Piers Morgan Show and debate 618 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,639 General Wesley Clark and ask him about his seven countries and 619 00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:34,000 five years comment that he made on Democracy Now with Amy 620 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:35,639 Goodman. If you don't know what that is, 621 00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:39,280 check out the debate between Scott Horton and Wesley Clark. 622 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,400 What we're doing at the Libertarian Institute is trying 623 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:47,159 to bring people together and have a free educational archive 624 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,199 in one website on history, economics, philosophy and the 625 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:53,800 news of the day. Kyle Anzalone summarizes the 626 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,200 news in about 6 bullet points. Every single day we have people 627 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,840 like Joe Solis Mullins writing a book, The National Debt and you. 628 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,880 He also wrote the fake China threat. 629 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,040 We have Connor Freeman constantly analyzing the issues 630 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,800 going on with Ukraine, China, what's happening in Gaza, what's 631 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,080 happening in Israel. We want to provide a place where 632 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,840 anyone can go type in the name Winston Churchill, type in the 633 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,800 topic minimum wage and get the libertarian point of view in a 634 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,400 very short amount of time. We want to save people on 635 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,920 monetary cost and more importantly, opportunity cost. 636 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,600 You don't have to spend 50 grand a year for four years to learn 637 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,440 about these very important things. 638 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:39,440 They can be summarized in audio, video, and article and blog 639 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:42,080 format. So if you're interested in 640 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:43,840 helping people see the world clearly, 641 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,080 libertarianinstitute.org. And, and I'll just say before 642 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,080 you jump back into Hans Hapa, I sit on the board. 643 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,600 They're great people. Nobody's riding around in a 644 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,520 limousine with the money. It's I mean, believe me, I've 645 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,200 been to Scott Horton's house, OK? 646 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,960 He is not spending your money on luxurious living. 647 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,920 The, the money goes to the ideas that we believe in. 648 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,480 So, so, all right, so let's get back to 649 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,320 solibertarianinstitute.org/donate. Probably. 650 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,440 I, I think you said just go do that. 651 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,040 I, I love these people. They're hard, 1000% trustworthy. 652 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,320 We all love Scott. And these things don't run 653 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,520 automatically. So if you're in the market for 654 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,160 helping somewhere, that would be a great place to do it. 655 00:36:25,720 --> 00:36:26,960 So Scott. Scott. 656 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,000 Worked very hard to get us A5O1C3 status. 657 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,400 So you can write this off on your taxes too. 658 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,960 That's what makes it so great. You get to stick it to them just 659 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,840 a little bit. By donating to us every now and 660 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,480 then, you're able to find a little loophole in this evil 661 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,000 latticework of statism that allows us to fund things we 662 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,240 really like and write it off on our taxes. 663 00:36:49,240 --> 00:36:51,880 So yes, libertarianinstitute.org/donate, 664 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,240 thank you for letting me plug that. 665 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:54,720 Yeah. Oh, absolutely. 666 00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:57,680 All right, So what's your recommendation? 667 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,960 I want to I want to look into this hop a guy and not just, you 668 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,200 know, the the three sentences of his the the, you know, the, the, 669 00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:06,480 the demonic sentences that have been quoted to me. 670 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,040 I want to actually read the guy. What what would you recommend? 671 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:11,880 It doesn't have to be mine. You know what would you 672 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,560 recommend people start? If I had to pick if people want 673 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,480 to start somewhere, if you go to mises.org, there's a book titled 674 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:24,080 Hapo Unplugged and it's a very short book with just his biggest 675 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,880 quotes from someone, a gentleman who really admires his work. 676 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,560 That's a great place to start. The best book I would say is 677 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,600 titled The Great Fiction. It's a collection of Hoppa 678 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,160 essays, very wide-ranging. They could be read in any order. 679 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,680 I'd say Big Book is the Great Fiction inspired by Bastiat, 680 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,680 which Hoppa produced. And if you don't have much time, 681 00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,360 you're still on the fence, check out Hoppa Unplugged. 682 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:54,320 I think it's $3 at the Mises Institute store. 683 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,240 All right, so that is in fact I'll why don't I link to that 684 00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:02,360 also on the show notes page and and we'll need some videos of 685 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,360 tomwoods.com slash 26 O 8 will be where we'll we'll put that 686 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,120 and any final word here? Have you met Hunt before 687 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,680 yourself in person? No, I haven't. 688 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,080 Kinsella was nice enough to give him a copy of the Voluntarist 689 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,920 Handbook and he took a picture with it, but I I have not met 690 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,320 him. Very jealous though. 691 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,480 But I get to meet him every single day with all the books 692 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,520 I've acquired of his. Fair enough, fair enough, and 693 00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,920 and you never know when he'll make it back to the US. 694 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,880 So anyway, tomwoods.com slash 26 O 8 is the link. 695 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:41,120 libertarianinstitute.org/donate. Go help these guys. 696 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:42,760 They're great. They're not going to let you 697 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,320 down. They don't blow the money that 698 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,520 are these big foundations. You don't know what in heaven's 699 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,960 name is going on over there, but I can attest to the, the honesty 700 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,440 and, and, and, and decency of these folks over the Libertarian 701 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,120 Institute. So thank you, Keith Knight, for 702 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,240 joining us today, and also for the good work you do with the 703 00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:04,160 Libertarian Institute. Tom Woods, thanks so much for 704 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,400 having. Me and thank you, ladies and 705 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,840 gentlemen. Make yourself and those you love 706 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:14,360 less vulnerable to the regime, both mentally and physically. 707 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,640 Get more forbidden information at tomsfree-books.com and be 708 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,000 sure to subscribe to the show wherever you listen. 709 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:32,080 See you next time. Like the sound of the Tom Wood 710 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,120 Show? My audio production is provided 711 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,960 by Podsworth Media. Check them out at podsworth.com.