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Welcome to Keith's night. 
Don't tread on anyone in the 

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libertarian Institute today. 
I am joined by the gentleman who

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run the brain in the vat YouTube
Channel, please check it out in 

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the description below. 
We have Mark, Oppenheimer and 

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dr. 
Jason wiebel off. 

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Mark, what is philosophy and why
is it important? 

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Well, I think philosophy is 
driven towards finding out. 

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What's true. 
I think it's a set of tools that

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people use to uncover reality. 
Both Jason and I are trainers 

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analytic philosophers, which 
means that we care about Clarity

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and we care about truth. 
I think it's different from the 

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rep that the public often have, 
you know, often people think 

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about philosophers. 
They think about someone like 

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Jacques Derrida or Jean-Paul 
Sartre. 

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They think about obfuscated 
language. 

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That's impenetrable. 
That's beyond them. 

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And the point of brain about 
really is to try and have 

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conversations with brilliant 
people in a way that's easy to 

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understand. 
So we try and burn as much 

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technical job. 
Then I'll show as possible and 

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we try and engage in issues that
are already fundamental. 

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So, we've talked about the 
existence of God. 

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We've talked about difficult, 
moral problems. 

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We've talked about the pandemic 
and use the whole range of 

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different, you know, moral 
principles along the way which 

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are, you know, derived from 
great for softball think is and,

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you know, some other areas to 
Jason. 

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Can you pronounce your last 
name? 

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For me? 
I knew the second I was saying 

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and I go, I've heard a lot. 
Lots of pronunciations but that 

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is new. 
It's were belief, horrible off. 

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I don't know what makes it rich 
any Russian surname, which now 

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all of a sudden is out of Vogue.
Okay, but we're gonna have to 

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cancel this recording. 
I have no clue your Russian. 

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Send me your bank info. 
I'm very much South African 

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Market as well. 
Okay. 

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Well my rule is three 
generations. 

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And then I stopped the 
punishment after that. 

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I like North Korea's World. 
Jason what is philosophy and why

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is it important? 
I think mocks definition is 

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right. 
It's truth-seeking. 

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So it's about trying to 
understand what is real in the 

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world. 
I think Aristotle had a nice 

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definition which is that it's 
about the pursuit of wisdom. 

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So it's not just about the 
pursuit of truth, but it's about

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the kinds of truths that could 
be applied in life in a certain 

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way. 
Way. 

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Now, a lot of modern philosophy 
is not like that. 

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You get modern philosophers, who
examined very, very kind of 

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abstract Fields, like, modal 
logic. 

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So, they'll talk about different
systems of modal, logic and 

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modal logic is about questions 
around would, and should and, 

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and necessity and possibility. 
And and those, those kind of 

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questions can get very abstract 
and it does feel like those 

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areas kind of get divorced from 
Them and just pursue truth 

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without wisdom. 
But for the most part in, at 

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least the kind of philosophy we 
like to do on our show. 

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It's about the pursuit of 
wisdom. 

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So to The Pursuit Of Truth there
can be applied in life. 

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You know, it, we were joking, of
course about, you know, you 

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being Russian but isn't it a 
little discouraging like in in 

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the English world at least 
there's so much talk about the 

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importance of not being racist 
or sexist and this is wrong 

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because your negatively 
generalizing something someone 

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based on an arbitrary 
characteristic. 

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Meanwhile, Russia's evil, Putin 
is Hitler. 

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So killing them is not really 
anything killing the people in 

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Yemen, well, more or less, they 
need to overthrow their 

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government and have regime 
change. 

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Same. 
In Iraq, it's so difficult that 

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people can come so far, but not 
apply their own principles. 

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Consistently, Mark. 
Do you think philosophy has made

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a great amount of progress, say,
since the days of Aristotle? 

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I suppose, it depends how you 
want to count progress. 

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I mean, one of the things that 
you lean at is this notion of 

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consistency and I think that if 
you are analytic philosopher 

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consistencies, really 
fundamental, you know, what 

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you're trying to do is lead a 
life as Jason says that seeks 

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wisdom. 
It means that your set of 

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principles must be totally 
coherent the method that we use 

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to do. 
That is something that we price 

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on the show, which is every 
episode we start with the 

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thought experiment. 
So, you're telling a little 

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story. 
The idea of that story is to try

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and understand your 
philosophical principles. 

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And then you want to see if 
those principles mesh with your 

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other principles. 
And so we create this Patchwork 

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quilt, along the way where we 
see can we have a moral system 

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for example, that strings 
together, all of our intuitions.

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That means that we have to bite 
a few bullets as possible. 

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So Jason's these two Terrian. 
He thinks that the right thing 

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to do is that which maximizes 
the good and it's an intuitively

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wonderful system, but it comes 
with a whole bunch of bull. 

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It's right. 
So one way to maximize, the good

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might be the killer of your 
innocent people along the way. 

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You got to ask, can we tolerate 
killing some innocent people 

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along the way and you know, then
we got a compared to the other 

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model systems and see what 
bullets, they make us B. 

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I think there's a sense in which
we have made progress. 

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If you, if you read Aristotle, 
you know, you'll see that it was

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assumed to be okay to own slaves
and that slavery was an ordinary

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part of Greek life and over 
time. 

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What we've done is we've 
expanded the Morel net. 

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And that we've started to say, 
well, it's not just me, who 

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matters or my family, or my 
tribe, it's Humanity at large 

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and for a long time. 
I think we moved in that 

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direction of saying that we need
to expand the net and you know 

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place was like Peter singer of 
said it's not just Humanity that

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matters. 
It's all beings have the 

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capacity to suffer. 
So the animal rights movement 

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comes out of singers work and 
out of moles work and bentham's 

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work, but we are starting to see
see some regress. 

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We're starting to see racial 
camps as you point out, people 

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who are obsessed with with 
racism have also become obsessed

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with racial identity. 
And there's a sense of saying 

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we're different from each other 
and we must have different rules

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for different races. 
That strikes me as very 

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regressive, and very dangerous, 
Jason thoughts on philosophical 

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progress since say the days of 
Aristotle's, when people start 

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giving philosophy, a lot of 
attention, I really like this 

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idea that Mark is raised about 
regression. 

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In that, we focusing so much now
and racial identities, and group

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identities. 
So, I think what was interesting

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about Aristotelian thought is 
that it was quite 

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individualistic. 
So it looked at an individual 

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and how that individual can live
a happy life. 

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So Aristotle talked about 
something called eudaimonia. 

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So you Dominica is kind of the 
set of Virtues that allows you 

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to live a happy fulfilled life 
full of well-being. 

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And of course, That life did 
include relating to other 

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people, but it was centered 
around the person, the 

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individual. 
And now it seems like we 

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becoming such group-oriented 
creatures. 

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That, it's a big problem. 
If you wanted to find yourself 

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today, you will often reference 
your race. 

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So I'm, I am a proud black woman
would be an identity. 

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That people will Proclaim, but 
my view and I imagine 

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Aristotle's as well. 
Is that a sentence like that? 

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I'm a proud black. 
Woman has no content. 

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In other words. 
It has nothing that actually 

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signifies a truth or falsity in 
the world. 

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It doesn't tell us anything 
about who you are. 

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It doesn't tell us anything of 
substance. 

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And I think this Focus around 
group identities is a big 

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problem. 
And let me just clarify when I 

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say, it has nothing of 
substance. 

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It's not because there's nothing
of substance to black woman. 

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It's because there's nothing of 
substance to any group identity 

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in my view. 
So I I just don't buy into any 

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of these group categories, 
including country categories, by

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the way, luck, National 
categories. 

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I watch the Ukraine, Russia 
Conflict at a distance. 

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And, and part of me gets very, 
very curious about what's really

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happening there. 
Like, what are these group had a

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chance to use? 
Is everyone who's a Russian, the

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same is everyone who's a 
Ukrainian the same. 

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When we make criticisms about 
Russians always saying anything 

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true. 
You know, it just it just seems 

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to me like these group claims 
are a problem and perhaps we're 

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worse off than we were in the 
days of Aristotle. 

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I'm sorry. 
If this is a boring question, 

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feel free to just ignore it, but
I never get to people from South

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Africa on Mark. 
Do you think Nelson Mandela was 

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a net positive or a net negative
with his actions and his 

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political activity in South 
Africa? 

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Yeah. 
I mean I think to kind of put 

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the question in perspective. 
You've got to have a sense of 

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what South Africa was like 
during apartheid, which is that 

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it was a very oppressive. 
Place Jason, and I both were 

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born in the sort of tail end of 
Apartheid, but, you know, our 

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parents had a sort of sense of 
what it was like. 

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So Africa was cut off from the 
rest of the world in a lot of 

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ways, heavily racially 
segregated. 

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So, you know, not just between 
black people and white people. 

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But also between different other
kinds of groups, there was an 

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obsession with group identity, 
and South Africa, and Incredibly

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restrictive. 
Place a lot of things were 

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banned, so there were lots of 
films. 

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Eames and music that was banned.
And so, really, with the release

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of Mandela in 1990 by FW de 
klerk. 

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You saw liberalization happen in
South Africa. 

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You saw us Embrace free markets,
be kind of welcome back into the

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global community and start 
engaging International Sports 

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competitions. 
There was a real sense for a 

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time of seeing ourselves as one 
United, South Africa. 

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And the sort of term of the 
rainbow nation, which means that

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you had Groups who were all part
of this diverse place with 

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different ideas, different 
worshipping, different gods with

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different different languages. 
That is 11 official languages in

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Africa, but there was a sense of
a nation building but also a 

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sense of a non-racial ISM. 
The idea that you shouldn't be 

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judged on the color of your 
skin, but on the content of your

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character and this is something 
that was entrenched in the 

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agency's freedom Charter. 
Now, Mandela was President for a

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period of five years for one 
term. 

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He could have done two terms, 
but decided to hand over power 

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early on to president Thabo 
mbeki and and Becky's rule. 

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You had quite a lot of economic 
growth, you know, South Africa, 

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counter. 
If you look at what our interest

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rates look like and what our GDP
look like, you know, the economy

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really boomed during Becky's 
years, but in Becky had a rather

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atrocious policy with regards to
HIV and AIDS. 

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And so, there's a view that 
about 300,000 people needlessly 

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died of AIDS because of Is 
denialism his view that using 

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enter retroviral, drugs would be
dangerous, that people should 

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use traditional remedies. 
So it depends on how you do. 

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We sort of see the cause, and 
their implications of Mandela's 

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rule. 
I mean, the successive rulers 

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and South Africa, have have been
pretty atrocious and that the 

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ANC has become a very pernicious
organization. 

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It's moved away from its liberal
values. 

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We forgotten about non 
racialism. 

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It's become a very 
race-conscious place place that 

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At whether the ruling party has 
members of the Communist Party 

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in it, and I'm very proud to 
call themselves Communists. 

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So there's been a lot of second 
order effects, you know, from 

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Mandela's rule. 
There's a famous saying, you 

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know, was the French Revolution,
a good idea or bad idea and the 

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viewers. 
It's too early to tell. 

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So, you know, there's some 
senses in, which if you want to 

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judge Mandela's conduct while he
was President, you know, I think

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it's fair to say that the The 
effects were overwhelmingly 

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positive, and really brought 
South Africa into the modern 

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world. 
The second order effects, more 

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complicated. 
Jason Mandela net positive or 

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negative. 
Well, this is where I start to 

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get a bit funny about these 
things because Mandela as the 

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world understands Mandela in 
South Africa understands Mandela

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is very much a social 
phenomenon. 

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So he's not just an individual, 
a comes with a certain role. 

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He was the president comes with 
Certain expectations, certain 

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value systems. 
And I just become very skeptical

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about all those associations. 
I think if we were to really sit

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Mandela down, although he's no 
longer with us. 

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But if one day we sat my Dillard
and we grilled him on his very 

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particular beliefs. 
They might be quite different 

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from the beliefs that people 
generally ascribed to him and 

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used him as a role model for. 
So, you know, what was Mandela's

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actual effect is a very tough 
metaphysical question. 

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So I call it a metaphysical 
question. 

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It's a question about what's 
real. 

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So what were his actual effects 
versus what were the effects of 

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the aura or their lack of social
expectations and Norms that 

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followed him around? 
It's, you know, good example is 

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when he was in his final years 
Mandela lost his his mind over 

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time and he died, many years 
after his mind died, but there 

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were organizations that 
continued in his name. 

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There's the Mandela foundation 
and there's various ins that 

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fought for what they believed 
his values were but a lot of 

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00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:41,400
people argue that those values 
that they were fighting for had 

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nothing in common with the 
values that he initially fought 

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for when he was imprisoned on 
Robben Island. 

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00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:49,600
So there's there's very 
difficult questions to be 

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00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,500
answered around. 
What is the impact of a socially

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00:13:52,500 --> 00:13:58,200
significant person or figure in 
history and how much is due to 

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00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,000
that? 
Figure versus all the 

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00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,100
projections that the people 
around them, throw onto him. 

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00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,200
So it's a very Unsatisfying 
answer to you because I don't 

259
00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:09,500
know the answer. 
I don't know what the effects of

260
00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:12,300
Nelson Mandela was. 
I just know what the, what the 

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00:14:12,300 --> 00:14:14,600
effect of which Market 
summarized very well of all the 

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00:14:14,608 --> 00:14:18,300
social expectations around, who 
he was that. 

263
00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:20,100
What did he actually do? 
I don't know. 

264
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:21,900
I don't know. 
Now. 

265
00:14:21,900 --> 00:14:24,700
I imagine he was very frustrated
at points because what he was 

266
00:14:24,700 --> 00:14:27,100
actually doing and what was 
results in could have been quite

267
00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:30,200
different. 
Mark, who was your favorite 

268
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,100
philosopher? 
And what is their greatest 

269
00:14:32,100 --> 00:14:37,100
contribution? 
I'm going to say John Stuart 

270
00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:39,900
Mill. 
I think most views on Free 

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00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:42,800
Speech, you know, still live 
with us today. 

272
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,400
I think they're still excellent 
justifications for why we should

273
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,800
protect the free exchange of 
ideas, even if those ideas 

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00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,500
strike us as dangerous or 
offensive, animal has this 

275
00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:55,700
wonderful line that we should be
free to swing our first, the 

276
00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:59,000
edge of each other's noses, but 
no further need to have mutually

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00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,400
compatible freedoms. 
And I think, you know, most work

278
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,900
is really In highly influential,
for building, a liberal 

279
00:15:07,900 --> 00:15:09,300
democracies that we see around 
the world. 

280
00:15:09,300 --> 00:15:12,000
I think we are starting to 
forget some of those principles,

281
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,300
you know, there's a, there's a 
famous quote that you don't win 

282
00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:17,500
Freedom. 
That the price of freedom is 

283
00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:20,500
eternal vigilance. 
And I think there is we've got 

284
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,600
the seeing what our complacency 
has resulted in. 

285
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:28,300
I think a lot of the freedoms 
that we take for granted are 

286
00:15:28,308 --> 00:15:31,100
being eroded and I think more 
would object. 

287
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:34,100
It's interesting analytic 
philosophers often. 

288
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,500
Don't talk about particular 
philosophical role models. 

289
00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:39,500
We often talk about streams of 
thought. 

290
00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:42,000
So we think about systems of 
ideas. 

291
00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:45,700
You often find that Continental 
lists, have a guru worship. 

292
00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:48,100
So they will say, I follow have 
a Mysore. 

293
00:15:48,100 --> 00:15:53,200
In a, I'm a big fan of Foucault.
And there's almost a sense of 

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00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,600
saying, you know, science. 
I remember chatting to one of my

295
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,500
purposes who's doing work on 
deliberative democracy and I 

296
00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:02,400
said, oh, you know, you should 
read our muscles work on that 

297
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,100
sin, and he said I couldn't 
possibly do that. 

298
00:16:04,700 --> 00:16:05,600
Yeah, I know. 
It's hard to read. 

299
00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,600
It's not the most Pleasant read,
but, you know, and it's another,

300
00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,200
that's not the reason he said, 
you know, one of my close 

301
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:11,500
friends had a fight with 
hardness. 

302
00:16:11,500 --> 00:16:14,600
And so therefore, I can't 
finally get to this work and I 

303
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,700
thought that's a weird reason. 
And so you do have this sort of 

304
00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:22,500
like Turf War stuff that that 
happens among certain academics.

305
00:16:23,300 --> 00:16:25,200
And I think you know analytic 
philosophers. 

306
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:30,000
We have this this line of all 
the ideas, any good and we 

307
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,000
rarely I mean like one of the 
things with our guests and we've

308
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,800
had close to 100 guests. 
We almost never ask them, 

309
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:39,000
anything personal, you know, we 
sort of go. 

310
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:40,100
What's the idea. 
Is there? 

311
00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:41,700
Are there any good? 
Doesn't even matter if it's 

312
00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:44,800
their idea. 
We just want someone to put the 

313
00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,900
idea out there so that we can 
coldly analyze it and see what 

314
00:16:47,900 --> 00:16:51,600
repercussions would have. 
And we think that that's a good 

315
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,600
way to find truth as opposed to 
having this personalization or 

316
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,300
on certain figures. 
Jason favorite philosopher, and 

317
00:16:59,300 --> 00:17:03,100
their greatest contribution. 
So, I saw the smoke on marks 

318
00:17:03,100 --> 00:17:06,800
face when he said, Jon Stewart 
mole because John Stuart Mill, 

319
00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,099
of course, was the originator of
utilitarianism and 

320
00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:13,500
utilitarianism is my pet Theory 
which Mark really dislikes. 

321
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:19,200
So he's taking a Jon Stewart, 
small John, Stuart Mill's Free 

322
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,200
Speech content without taking 
his utilitarianism. 

323
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:27,500
So, and my, I think one of the 
most significant Purrs, I really

324
00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:30,900
like John Stuart Mill as well, 
because of his is utilitarian 

325
00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:35,100
Roots. 
But but probably my favorite 

326
00:17:35,100 --> 00:17:37,200
philosopher would be Thomas 
Nagel. 

327
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:43,700
So Nagel wrote a little, a 
little article which really 

328
00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:46,000
changed philosophy called. 
What is it like to be a bat? 

329
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:52,700
And he asked the question. 
Could you in principle know what

330
00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:56,200
the phenomenology of a bat is? 
Like, what would, what would it 

331
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,600
be like to have? 
Upside down in a cave all day 

332
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,500
and use echolocation to work 
out. 

333
00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:02,800
What is going on around. 
You? 

334
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,800
Can we even imagine that? 
And then he said, well, we can't

335
00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:11,400
and he extended that and he 
said, well, if you can't 

336
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:15,200
understand what it's like to be 
a member of another species, do 

337
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:16,700
you think you can even know 
what? 

338
00:18:16,700 --> 00:18:18,400
It's like to be a member of your
own? 

339
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,800
Do you think you can know what? 
It's like to be someone else and

340
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:24,300
have their feelings, their 
mental States? 

341
00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:26,100
Their thoughts. 
Do you know what? 

342
00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:30,400
It's like to To be them. 
And he said, no, he said, you 

343
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,100
can't understand another person 
subject to the T. 

344
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:35,700
And this change philosophy in 
radical ways. 

345
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,600
It changed, especially 
philosophy of mind. 

346
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:43,100
So how we understand what the 
mind is and it really placed an 

347
00:18:43,100 --> 00:18:48,500
importance on again, the 
individual because his view at 

348
00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:51,500
least the original view is that 
there's no such thing as the 

349
00:18:51,500 --> 00:18:55,600
phenomenology of a group. 
There's nothing it is like to be

350
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,000
black or white or Male or 
female? 

351
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:00,900
There's only something. 
It is like to be you and 

352
00:19:00,900 --> 00:19:03,100
individual. 
And I think that's a very 

353
00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:08,000
powerful notion. 
Mark what is self-knowledge and 

354
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:13,500
why self-knowledge important? 
Hmm. 

355
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,400
I'm so glad marks getting these 
questions first. 

356
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:19,600
You know what, I didn't even 
plan it. 

357
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:25,100
I I'm gonna switch it up after. 
This is basically being the 

358
00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:28,200
story of our relationship, which
is that I think that heavy blows

359
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,700
first and then Jason relies on 
my coattails. 

360
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,100
I have two interesting since 
utility by hitting you as hard 

361
00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:37,300
as I can. 
Yeah, he loves watching me 

362
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:43,500
suffer. 
We've kept the ankle for nearly 

363
00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:46,900
a decade. 
So knowledge. 

364
00:19:46,900 --> 00:19:51,600
That's interesting question. 
I suppose it strikes me as the 

365
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,800
kind of thing that you can have 
some knowledge about yourself, 

366
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,600
but I think there's probably 
some things that we don't know 

367
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:03,500
about ourselves that, you know, 
we are rich mines. 

368
00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:07,000
And that I think through a 
process of introspection, we can

369
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,700
work out things that are hidden 
from us Jason's quite a bit. 

370
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:13,600
Fan of psychoanalysis and thinks
that this is a good method to 

371
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,600
try and uncover your 
unconscious, find out what it 

372
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,000
is. 
That, you know, we've debated 

373
00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:22,800
this quite a lot as to whether 
those things really are beneath 

374
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,000
the surface and can be Unearthed
or whether they are things being

375
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:30,800
implanted by an external person.
But yeah, I think that as I say 

376
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,500
this this method that we use 
called reflective equilibrium, 

377
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,800
which is that the idea that you,
you take a theoretical position 

378
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,400
and then you go and test it 
against World facts and you move

379
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,100
between these two spaces, you 
know, and you try and like tweak

380
00:20:46,100 --> 00:20:49,900
the one versus the other to try 
and know what you should do. 

381
00:20:49,900 --> 00:20:53,200
That's sort of similar to this 
introspective process where you 

382
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,200
think about position in the 
world and what you believe and 

383
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,600
you moderate. 
I think the people that struck 

384
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:03,400
me is very dangerous, are those 
that have no ability to do this.

385
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,000
In other words. 
They have imbibed a certain kind

386
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,700
of tonic. 
They believe it to be true and 

387
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:11,700
there is no evidence that could 
Never dislodge them, their 

388
00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:13,900
phonetics. 
There is no self knowledge. 

389
00:21:13,900 --> 00:21:18,200
There is just a fervor with them
and this can come in all sorts 

390
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,800
of shapes and sizes. 
You know, you couldn't, you 

391
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,000
could compute an ideological 
position to many people and they

392
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,000
just, you know, act like an 
automaton and, you know, carry 

393
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,300
out all the principles and 
that's, you know, a rather 

394
00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:31,000
dangerous thing and something to
be resisted. 

395
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,600
Jason. 
What is self-knowledge? 

396
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:39,400
And why is it important? 
Well, riding on Fox cartels. 

397
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,800
I I really like the idea of 
knowing yourself 

398
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,500
psychologically. 
So I like the idea that it's 

399
00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:50,400
important for a human being to 
know, what their personality is,

400
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,400
what their desires are 
philosophers. 

401
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,000
Don't really focus on that so 
much. 

402
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,500
We usually focus on what our 
beliefs are. 

403
00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:03,100
So I guess the ideal for lhasa 
fur doesn't Discover what their 

404
00:22:03,100 --> 00:22:07,000
beliefs are, their beliefs are 
supposed to track the truth, but

405
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,900
I don't think philosophers 
generally function that way. 

406
00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:17,400
So I think we're humans and we 
have certain underlying it kind 

407
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,100
of inclinations towards certain 
belief systems, Mark, mentioned 

408
00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:23,900
earlier that I'm a utilitarian. 
I think I'm drawn to 

409
00:22:23,900 --> 00:22:27,200
utilitarianism first and 
foremost because it's a very 

410
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:33,800
rebellious view, you know, Them 
seems very intuitive this idea 

411
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,200
that you should maximize 
happiness for society as a 

412
00:22:36,208 --> 00:22:37,900
whole. 
It sounds great. 

413
00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:41,300
But when you start to lose 
State, all the context, a that 

414
00:22:41,300 --> 00:22:43,500
it brings up there, pretty 
radical. 

415
00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:47,000
So one of them, for example, is 
that the thing that would 

416
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,500
maximize utility or happiness, 
for society? 

417
00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:53,500
As a whole is, if let's say you 
taking a walk in the park and 

418
00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:57,500
there's a very fit Runner who 
walked who runs by, you should 

419
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,000
grab him quickly, give them a 
painless potassium. 

420
00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:04,800
Injection, stopped his heart and
then distribute his organs to 

421
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,600
10, or 20, or 30, people, whose 
lives will be saved or vastly 

422
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,100
improved by killing one person. 
So strictly speaking. 

423
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:15,400
If you look at utilitarianism, 
it results in these very bizarre

424
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:20,200
count examples, which suggests 
highly immoral actions that 

425
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,200
utilitarianism is supposed to be
telling us what is moral so that

426
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,400
those kind of puzzles really 
intrigued me. 

427
00:23:27,500 --> 00:23:30,300
And so I lean towards 
utilitarianism. 

428
00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:33,500
And I probably have that 
leaning. 

429
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,300
I had that living before even 
considering whether the theory 

430
00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:39,400
was true or false. 
So in that sense, I think it is 

431
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,500
important for philosophers to 
understand, not just the 

432
00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:46,600
personality in the psychology 
and All Humans, not just 

433
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,500
philosophers, but specifically, 
for philosophers to understand 

434
00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:54,800
the belief inclinations, where 
they lean towards and why There 

435
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,600
was a book written by the school
of life. 

436
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,400
It's titled big ideas for 
curious minds on page. 112. 

437
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,200
They discuss the meaning of 
life. 

438
00:24:03,300 --> 00:24:07,800
They say the meaning of life is 
about what makes your life feel 

439
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,400
interesting and good. 
It's as simple as that. 

440
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,700
And you achieve this, what 
mainly counts is fixing things. 

441
00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:17,500
When you fix something, you 
solve a problem that matters to 

442
00:24:17,500 --> 00:24:18,600
you. 
What makes life? 

443
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,200
Bad is problems. 
So it makes a lot of sense that 

444
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,400
fixing problems is the thing. 
We To make life good and give it

445
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,300
meaning Jason. 
Do you have any thoughts on what

446
00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:32,500
the meaning of life is? 
Well, I think it's definitely 

447
00:24:32,500 --> 00:24:36,300
not that, that that sounds like 
nonsense to me. 

448
00:24:36,300 --> 00:24:38,000
So, I think they're just 
confusing. 

449
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,400
What the meaning of life is 
worth utility there. 

450
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,100
So meaning of life, it's a good 
question. 

451
00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:48,000
What it is, one of the 
Philosopher's on our show 

452
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,200
Thaddeus Max. 
He thinks the meaning of life is

453
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,400
the combination of three things.
It's the good, the beautiful, 

454
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,900
and the true. 
Now I think, what's our yes and 

455
00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:01,800
marks busy holding up right now,
the book that we wrote with that

456
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,500
on this. 
So so that's that theory of the 

457
00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:07,800
meaning of life is quite 
plausible. 

458
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,500
And that is that hizmet is one 
of the most he's sort of the 

459
00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:15,800
expert on the meaning of life, 
but there's other theories about

460
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:19,000
what the meaning of life is to 
the theory that you've just 

461
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,000
given. 
Seems to only encapsulate, the 

462
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,200
good, it ignores the beautiful 
and the true. 

463
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:29,000
That's that's the problem. 
I think I think it that's just 

464
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:35,900
confusing utility or the good or
happiness with meaning my 

465
00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:37,500
personal view. 
What is the meaning of life? 

466
00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:39,100
I don't think there is a meaning
of life. 

467
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,900
So I think that the concept the 
meaning of life is just not a 

468
00:25:43,908 --> 00:25:47,200
coherent concept and that we 
should do away with it and just 

469
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,700
talk about the component parts, 
that that discusses Parts. 

470
00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:52,100
Like the good beautiful and 
true. 

471
00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:54,200
What are those now? 
I don't think together. 

472
00:25:54,300 --> 00:25:56,800
They make up anything special 
called the meaning of life, 

473
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,800
Mark, thoughts on the meaning of
life. 

474
00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:04,900
Yeah, so I have different 
objections to the one given in 

475
00:26:04,900 --> 00:26:07,700
the book. 
Although I quite liked the 

476
00:26:07,700 --> 00:26:09,800
project that those guys have 
engaged in and I think a lot of 

477
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,900
the content they produce has 
really interesting. 

478
00:26:12,700 --> 00:26:16,400
I think my objection is that 
it's what we call a subjectivist

479
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,400
account of meaning. 
In other words. 

480
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,100
It's about you determining 
what's important and pursuing 

481
00:26:22,100 --> 00:26:24,200
that that has this really 
interesting. 

482
00:26:24,300 --> 00:26:27,200
Thing list of things we says. 
Imagine. 

483
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,800
Someone says the problem that 
I'm setting for myself, which 

484
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,000
I'm going to fix is to keep a 
very precise number of hairs on 

485
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:40,100
my head to ensure that I can't 
exactly eleven thousand. 

486
00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:43,100
Three hundred eighty four Blades
of grass on my lawn every day 

487
00:26:43,300 --> 00:26:46,500
and make sure that I do it very 
accurately to stand in queues 

488
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:50,900
for hours on end to re-watch 
episodes of Buffy the Vampire 

489
00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:54,700
Slayer, you know, and you can 
imagine making a Amount of it, 

490
00:26:54,700 --> 00:26:55,900
you know? 
So that you have to watch x 

491
00:26:55,900 --> 00:26:58,900
number of episodes a week or a 
day or a year, whatever it is 

492
00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:00,400
and then solve the problem 
through doing it. 

493
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:02,400
None of that would be 
meaningful. 

494
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,800
It might be very pleasurable for
the person who desert, but it 

495
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,900
would seem like a meaningless 
activity. 

496
00:27:08,300 --> 00:27:11,600
And so that's account. 
I suppose there's a sort of 

497
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,100
naming question as to whether 
you want to say that stuff is 

498
00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:15,700
about. 
Meaning, I'm inclined to say it 

499
00:27:15,700 --> 00:27:19,600
is, but I think when you're 
pursuing things that are 

500
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,600
objectively, good, you're doing 
something meaningful. 

501
00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:24,200
I think those those lists are 
good. 

502
00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:26,100
As the start, the true, the 
beautiful, and the good. 

503
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:30,500
And I think you have to do with 
the right disposition as well. 

504
00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:33,300
So it's not just a matter of 
doing the good things. 

505
00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:36,200
So you can imagine the nurse who
spends her days. 

506
00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:39,300
Caring for the sick in a commune
their bedpans, mopping, their 

507
00:27:39,300 --> 00:27:41,500
brows, but you hate every minute
of it. 

508
00:27:42,100 --> 00:27:44,100
She's undoubtedly tracking 
thing. 

509
00:27:44,100 --> 00:27:45,600
That is objectively. 
Good in the world. 

510
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,800
It is a meaningful activity, but
she doesn't drive any meaning 

511
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:51,200
from it because of a 
disposition. 

512
00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:53,700
So I think you have to recognize
that you're doing something 

513
00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:55,400
meaningful. 
In order for it to be meaningful

514
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,600
for you, but not anything that 
you think is Meaningful is 

515
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,500
actually meaningful. 
So you need those things to kind

516
00:28:00,500 --> 00:28:03,900
of track with each other, the 
book that Jason mentioned. 

517
00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:07,100
So one of the fun things we've 
done with the brand of a show, 

518
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:10,500
is to pick our favorite episodes
and turn them into books. 

519
00:28:10,700 --> 00:28:15,600
And so we've produced a set of 6
and the second person who writes

520
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,800
in this book, on meaning of life
is David Banner top and David 

521
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,000
Bennett are, I think very famous
for his views on antinatalism, 

522
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:28,100
the idea that it would be Better
narrative been born and he also 

523
00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:29,600
thinks about this question 
about. 

524
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,500
Well, what's, what is the 
meaning of life? 

525
00:28:32,500 --> 00:28:35,300
Not just in, what are the things
that make your life meaningful? 

526
00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:38,400
He thinks that the stuff that 
that tracks, their those things 

527
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,200
are meaningful, but he says, you
got to zoom out that just gives 

528
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,900
you the terrestrial perspective.
He says you've got to look at it

529
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:46,100
from the cosmic perspective and 
he says when you zoom out and 

530
00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:49,400
you see this pale blue.in the 
middle of nowhere, you realize 

531
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:54,100
that all of our efforts might as
well be you know, my name. 

532
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,100
What happened, you know, that 
from the perspective of the 

533
00:28:56,100 --> 00:28:57,900
universe, they're totally and 
utterly insignificant. 

534
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,800
And so, he thinks that when we 
have this perspective, that 

535
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,400
there is very, very little 
meaning in life. 

536
00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:10,500
And, and this is a further 
reason to drive Humanity into 

537
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:12,400
Extinction. 
Not through killing it. 

538
00:29:12,700 --> 00:29:14,800
But through ensuring, that there
are no new human beings. 

539
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,300
Oh, voluntary genocide. 
That's that. 

540
00:29:18,300 --> 00:29:21,000
That's a nice one. 
Jason. 

541
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,500
There's a thought experiment by 
Robert nozick called The 

542
00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:28,100
Experience machine in his 
attempt to refute Hedonism. 

543
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,700
He says imagine a machine that 
could give us whatever desirable

544
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,400
desirable or pleasurable 
experiences. 

545
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,400
We want in this thought. 
Experiment psychologists have 

546
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,100
figured out a way to stimulate a
person's brain to induce 

547
00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:45,000
pleasurable experiences that the
subject. 

548
00:29:45,100 --> 00:29:47,300
Could not distinguish from 
those. 

549
00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:49,000
He would have a part from the 
machine. 

550
00:29:49,300 --> 00:29:52,600
He then asks, if given the 
choice, would we prefer the 

551
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,800
machine to real life? 
Jason, would you plug in? 

552
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:58,800
Yes or no? 
No, I wouldn't. 

553
00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:03,800
So, what's interesting about the
thought experiment, which is a 

554
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:05,800
really fantastic thought 
experiment, and it's right up 

555
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:07,700
there with Thomas, nagle's, what
is it? 

556
00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:09,700
Like to be a bat? 
Is that? 

557
00:30:09,700 --> 00:30:12,500
It's meant to be a can't example
to Heaven, ISM, right? 

558
00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:17,000
So hypnotism is the view that 
what's good for you is, So the 

559
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,000
idea is, well, you've got 
infinite pleasure in the 

560
00:30:19,008 --> 00:30:21,100
machine. 
So surely, if what's good for 

561
00:30:21,100 --> 00:30:24,100
you is pleasure than you should 
plug into the machine that most 

562
00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:26,700
people said they wouldn't plug 
into the machine and so pleasure

563
00:30:26,700 --> 00:30:30,100
can't be what's good for you, 
but I don't think that the 

564
00:30:30,100 --> 00:30:34,600
argument is valid because it's 
not the case that just because 

565
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,400
Pleasures, what's good for you? 
That it's the only value that 

566
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,200
matters to us. 
So there's other values that 

567
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,800
matter to and some of the values
that nozick raises in his 

568
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:48,300
article are things like, 
authenticity or transcending 

569
00:30:48,300 --> 00:30:50,800
yourself. 
So he says, those are very 

570
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,700
important values and he says 
well that means that Hellenism 

571
00:30:53,700 --> 00:30:57,000
is false because the reason we 
don't apply again is we don't 

572
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:58,800
want to just be in our own heads
all the time. 

573
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,400
We want to transcend ourselves 
and we want to be authentic, we 

574
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,500
want to do things in the world 
that Real, not just simulated 

575
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:10,600
and he thinks that those things 
compete with head anism, for 

576
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:12,500
being theories of what is good 
for you. 

577
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,200
And so we should we should 
conclude that because we choose 

578
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,000
those overhead anism that had 
nizam is false. 

579
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,800
I just I don't think the can't 
example works because you can 

580
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,200
say that what is good for you, 
in the sense of makes you, happy

581
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,200
is heaven has mm, but at the 
same time, there's these other 

582
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,100
values that don't Not make you 
happy, but they provide you with

583
00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:37,200
other things, they provide you 
with authenticity. 

584
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:38,600
They provide you with 
Transcendence. 

585
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,300
Those are the values are 
important, alongside had an ism 

586
00:31:42,300 --> 00:31:46,000
and sometimes they'll Trump 
hypnotism as to what is the most

587
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,900
important value in your life, 
but it doesn't mean that they 

588
00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:51,400
make your life go. 
Well, what it means. 

589
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,800
They don't give you well-being. 
What they do is they just 

590
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,700
provide you with other values in
addition to well-being. 

591
00:31:56,900 --> 00:32:00,400
So no, I wouldn't plug-in but 
not because heading ISM or 

592
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:02,400
pleasure isn't what makes me 
happy. 

593
00:32:02,700 --> 00:32:05,300
Just because I want things in 
addition to happiness. 

594
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,200
I want authenticity and I want 
to be able to transcend myself. 

595
00:32:10,100 --> 00:32:14,300
Mark thoughts on nose experience
machine thought example, the 

596
00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:17,800
thought experiment. 
Yeah, so I think there's a 

597
00:32:17,808 --> 00:32:21,300
little trick that when this 
thing is taught is that the way 

598
00:32:21,300 --> 00:32:23,800
that the professor gives the 
experiment is exactly the way 

599
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,800
that you've done it is, you ask 
people to raise their hands, 

600
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,500
very people, raise their hands. 
Here's the way I said, which is,

601
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,400
hey guys. 
I've got some news for you. 

602
00:32:34,900 --> 00:32:37,300
None of you are in reality right
now. 

603
00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:39,500
You've all been plugged into an 
experience machine. 

604
00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:42,900
All of the joys, the 
relationships that everything 

605
00:32:42,900 --> 00:32:46,800
that you have right now, it's 
fake, it's simulated. 

606
00:32:47,900 --> 00:32:51,900
But if you take this little 
pull, we can put you into 

607
00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:55,100
reality but just a little heads 
up, you're going to be eating a 

608
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:57,500
lot of gruel and there's going 
to be a bunch of machines that 

609
00:32:57,500 --> 00:32:59,300
want to kill you. 
A lot of the Matrix, right? 

610
00:32:59,900 --> 00:33:03,300
And then the question is, do you
want to be plugged out of the 

611
00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:05,100
machine? 
I think it becomes a hard 

612
00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:06,200
question. 
You might say, well the 

613
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,000
intensity sounds very nice, but,
you know, stake in the Six 

614
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,200
tastes pretty good. 
So maybe maybe I'll Stick Around

615
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,300
in the simulation. 
You know, I think Jason's right 

616
00:33:17,300 --> 00:33:19,400
to say that when were talking 
about values. 

617
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,900
There's a range of values and I 
think any theory that said, 

618
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,700
pleasure means nothing would be 
a bad Theory and I think, you 

619
00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:28,900
know, we do care about 
authenticity authenticity. 

620
00:33:28,900 --> 00:33:32,100
I think it's an important value 
but there might be some point 

621
00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:34,200
where you say. 
Well, if on the other end of 

622
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,100
this, you know, of this machine,
there's going to be lots of 

623
00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:40,900
suffering, you know, and I can 
just have the In authentic 

624
00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:43,300
pleasure, and all these in 
authentic relationships. 

625
00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:47,100
I might pick that. 
Yeah, reference points matter, 

626
00:33:47,100 --> 00:33:49,000
right? 
So if your reference point is 

627
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,600
the experience in the machine, 
you might have a different 

628
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,800
answer from if your reference 
point is outside the machine 

629
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,800
reference points matter, but I 
agree with Mark the other reason

630
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,600
why I think it's important to 
phrase that way is I think it's 

631
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,200
quite hard for people to imagine
what it would be like to be put 

632
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,900
in an experience machine. 
You know, they imagine it's like

633
00:34:07,900 --> 00:34:09,500
sticking on a VR set of 
something. 

634
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,100
But if I say to you, it is as 
real as everything right now and

635
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:14,900
assume that we're in one right 
now. 

636
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,400
And by the way, there's a view, 
Elon Musk has put on this called

637
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,300
the Bostrom hypothesis, which is
that, in all likelihood. 

638
00:34:22,300 --> 00:34:25,699
We are in a simulation right now
and the claim is that 

639
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,900
statistical one, which is that, 
if there was the capacity to 

640
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,900
build a simulator and you 
wouldn't just run one 

641
00:34:32,900 --> 00:34:34,500
simulation. 
You would run hundreds of 

642
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:37,300
thousands of simulations and 
given that you've got a hundred 

643
00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:39,500
thousands of simulations. 
None of which are real. 

644
00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:42,100
And there's Only one reality, 
the odds are that you're in a 

645
00:34:42,107 --> 00:34:44,199
simulation as opposed to a real 
one right now. 

646
00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:49,600
Jason Brennan wrote a book 
called against democracy. 

647
00:34:49,900 --> 00:34:54,000
The reason that I think this is 
important as one of the main 

648
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,500
justifications from a lot of 
American politicians to blindly,

649
00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:02,400
take the side of Ukraine and 
zielinski, and put all power 

650
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,100
force and support behind him is,
they are more democratic the 

651
00:35:06,107 --> 00:35:07,200
Assumption being. 
Well. 

652
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:08,800
Yeah, Russia's technically a 
democracy. 

653
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,200
But if so many oligarchs 
poisoning, the well that Ukraine

654
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:15,100
is the real democracy. 
So he has a great book where he 

655
00:35:15,100 --> 00:35:17,700
questions. 
The legitimacy of democracy. 

656
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:23,800
He says, imagine you have five 
juries and they're all painted. 

657
00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:26,700
The first jury is ignorant. 
They don't even know what murder

658
00:35:26,700 --> 00:35:29,100
is. 
The second is a rational they, 

659
00:35:30,700 --> 00:35:36,700
they are not really able to 
analyze the evidence put in 

660
00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:39,300
front of them. 
The third is impaired. 

661
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,100
They almost can't even speak. 
The fourth is a moral. 

662
00:35:42,100 --> 00:35:44,900
They actually like murderers and
they're going to let murderers 

663
00:35:44,900 --> 00:35:47,000
go free. 
And the fifth is corrupt. 

664
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,600
They just that they interrupt 
the trial and say, whichever 

665
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,800
side pays us. 
More is the side we will side 

666
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,100
with. 
He says, we have no obligation 

667
00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:57,900
to obey the verdict that any of 
these jurors put forth. 

668
00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:03,100
Now all of those, apply to the 
populations of virtually every 

669
00:36:03,100 --> 00:36:05,500
country. 
Therefore, you don't have a 

670
00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:10,800
moral obligation to obey laws 
that exist as a result of 

671
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,300
democratic decision-making, or 
deliberative democracy, I think 

672
00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:18,300
is the term Jason, what are your
thoughts on the moral legitimacy

673
00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:20,800
of democracy? 
So I agree? 

674
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,700
It's not that you have no 
obligation to buy the state. 

675
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:26,500
Although my reasons for 
thinking. 

676
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,000
So different. 
Basically that that argument 

677
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:36,500
assumes that every government or
every state is systematically 

678
00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:43,100
flawed in some way that sounds 
plausible, but it's going to be 

679
00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:46,800
difficult to prove, right? 
So it's going to be difficult in

680
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,800
any given case to prove that. 
There's a systematic bias or 

681
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,200
flaw in this particular 
political party or this 

682
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,500
particular State. 
And if you speak to people who 

683
00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:57,900
are members of their political 
party, they're going to push 

684
00:36:57,900 --> 00:37:01,100
very hard for saying no no, no. 
No, we're not systematically 

685
00:37:01,100 --> 00:37:05,100
floor, Drew strategic, you know,
we make certain decisions that 

686
00:37:05,300 --> 00:37:08,600
may appear to be flawed or 
systematically biased, but we 

687
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,300
doing it for good reason. 
And there's a strategy or a game

688
00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:12,900
that needs to be played here at 
cetera. 

689
00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:15,600
So II. 
Don't I don't buy that. 

690
00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:19,100
At arguments going to convince 
anyone who's seriously in 

691
00:37:19,100 --> 00:37:22,100
support of any kind of political
system or political party. 

692
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,900
The reason why I think that we 
are not obligated to obey a 

693
00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:30,200
state is is more in line with 
Mike humors view. 

694
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:35,700
So Mike humor says, well, we 
never really have volunteered to

695
00:37:35,900 --> 00:37:39,100
to be part of ought to be 
subject to these systems. 

696
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,600
They're kind of arrived on your 
door and they say, well, we want

697
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,600
protection money, right? 
Called tax. 

698
00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:47,000
So, you know, You don't pay us. 
We're going to break your 

699
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:51,400
kneecaps and put you in prison. 
But if you pay us good for you, 

700
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,300
you know, good for you. 
You're an upstanding member of 

701
00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:55,200
society at, but you never made 
this choice, right? 

702
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,700
You never made the choice to, to
be in a situation where this mob

703
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:02,200
boss arrives at your door and 
says, give give me protection 

704
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,000
money. 
That's, you know, that just 

705
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:09,400
seems fundamentally unjust and 
and you don't owe them anything.

706
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:12,000
Of course, I do. 
I do follow laws. 

707
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:18,400
Mark is always very All of this 
that I'm, I'm one of the most 

708
00:38:18,500 --> 00:38:23,100
law-abiding anarchists, he knows
the reason why I follow laws is 

709
00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:24,800
because I think that 
self-serving. 

710
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,600
So, in other words, the mob boss
Hugh arrives on your door, does 

711
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,200
a really good job of making sure
that you pay that protection 

712
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,700
money and if you don't, you 
know, you get into trouble. 

713
00:38:33,700 --> 00:38:38,000
So I think it's self-serving. 
It's prudent to pay your taxes 

714
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,200
and it's prudent to Bay a bay 
most laws, but you certainly not

715
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,500
obligated to do. 
So, the only reason you should 

716
00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:49,000
do so is to protect yourself. 
Mark thoughts on the legitimacy 

717
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,600
of democracy and obeying the 
state. 

718
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,500
Yeah. 
So democracy is the worst system

719
00:38:54,900 --> 00:38:59,900
except for all others. 
So I think all those features 

720
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,700
that brand and identifies are 
clearly present, right? 

721
00:39:03,700 --> 00:39:05,300
There are many citizens. 
Who are, that way? 

722
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,200
I think the difficulty is that 
when you concentrate power in 

723
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:14,200
the hands of the few things, 
wind up, much worse, so I'm a 

724
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,000
classical liberal. 
I take the view that That 

725
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,900
absolute power corrupts. 
Absolutely. 

726
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:21,200
And that's, you know, people are
not to be trusted that people 

727
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,100
have very dark sides in the 
nature. 

728
00:39:23,100 --> 00:39:26,800
And one way to deal with that 
problem is to have lots of 

729
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,000
checks and balances and to 
reduce concentrations of power. 

730
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:34,300
So I think, for example, in 
South Africa, if we had a pure 

731
00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:37,400
majoritarian system, if you just
randomly Thing by a referendum, 

732
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,900
we would bring back the death 
penalty and we would ban gay 

733
00:39:41,900 --> 00:39:43,600
marriage. 
We wouldn't be particularly 

734
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,200
freedom-loving. 
I think a lot of People's 

735
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:50,300
instincts, you know, change 
quite dramatically over time as 

736
00:39:50,300 --> 00:39:52,400
well. 
They're sort of can be revved up

737
00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:56,400
and there's high levels of 
xenophobia in South Africa. 

738
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:00,000
I can you imagine if, if you 
took it to a popular vote, 

739
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,400
should we expel all zimbabweans 
from South Africa? 

740
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:04,500
Will be surprised if people 
said, yes. 

741
00:40:04,900 --> 00:40:06,900
And despite the suffering that 
it would, cause despite the 

742
00:40:06,908 --> 00:40:10,000
economic hardship would cause 
for other other South Africans 

743
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,300
in a furnace tend to be quite 
good for your country. 

744
00:40:14,100 --> 00:40:15,700
So we're a constitutional 
democracy. 

745
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,700
CC and the idea with 
constitutions is that you can 

746
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:20,900
place some sort of check on the 
majority. 

747
00:40:21,300 --> 00:40:23,400
And now, Constitutions are 
necessarily good. 

748
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,100
Depends, what you put in them. 
So, you know, I think ensuring 

749
00:40:27,100 --> 00:40:29,600
that, you know, your executive 
doesn't have too much power. 

750
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,800
It's pretty important that 
you've got lots of procedural 

751
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:34,200
barriers. 
In the way of people often 

752
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,700
complain about like gridlock in 
Congress. 

753
00:40:37,500 --> 00:40:39,900
I think it's a great thing. 
I think when politicians do 

754
00:40:39,900 --> 00:40:42,100
stuff, you want to make it 
really, really hard for them 

755
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,200
because often their instincts 
are negative. 

756
00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:52,200
They act, you know, for for, for
bad reasons and but there's a 

757
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,600
sort of I think there's a an 
amazing wisdom of crowds that 

758
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,400
can happen, which is over time. 
You have enough competing 

759
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,900
interests and you have the way 
that how much describes. 

760
00:41:02,900 --> 00:41:09,000
It is a reason to put forward 
your view in a manner, which 

761
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,300
seeks to be an interest of 
everyone. 

762
00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:14,300
So instead of something for a 
partisan position. 

763
00:41:14,300 --> 00:41:15,600
You're trying to convince 
everybody. 

764
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,400
So Have to cash out your 
arguments in the sense that this

765
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,400
would be good for everybody. 
And I think that's a useful way 

766
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,500
to get people on site. 
And it often will take away. 

767
00:41:24,500 --> 00:41:26,300
The more pernicious aspects of 
law. 

768
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,800
There's some interesting debates
about, you know, whether we 

769
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,100
should think of the state has 
any legitimacy, you know, the 

770
00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:37,100
kind of hobbesian argument is 
that if we didn't have a 

771
00:41:37,100 --> 00:41:40,600
leviathan, we'd have a life that
was nasty, brutish and short. 

772
00:41:41,300 --> 00:41:44,200
And that the advantage of having
a state with the Monopoly on 

773
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,300
violence, is that You know, 
we're all better off. 

774
00:41:48,100 --> 00:41:51,600
I do think it's this is the 
difficulty with revolutionary 

775
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,500
fervor is, you know, and you've 
seen a lot of it in America, 

776
00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:56,400
you've got lots of people, sort 
of saying, let's just burn the 

777
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,000
system down man, like fuck the 
government. 

778
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,100
Fuck the police, fuck the whole 
system and it's because all 

779
00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:07,700
those people have lived on The 
Spoils of, you know, a state 

780
00:42:07,700 --> 00:42:11,000
that provides them with 
protection a capitalist system 

781
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,800
that provides people with an 
unbelievable Bounty of goods, 

782
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,700
and services, you know, many of 
the Please describe themselves 

783
00:42:16,700 --> 00:42:19,700
as Communists. 
But if they spent a moment 

784
00:42:19,900 --> 00:42:22,100
sharing with someone, you know, 
who grown up in a Communist 

785
00:42:22,100 --> 00:42:24,800
Regime, they had realized the 
horrors that those systems bring

786
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,100
about and that those systems are
about concentrating power, in 

787
00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:30,800
the hands of the few. 
You know, communism is one of 

788
00:42:30,808 --> 00:42:32,700
those systems that's led to the 
death of a hundred million 

789
00:42:32,700 --> 00:42:35,800
people. 
You know, you had the Khmer 

790
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,700
Rouge in Cambodia who had to 
them on some wonderful ideas, 

791
00:42:39,700 --> 00:42:41,800
about how to start a society 
from a fresh to have a year 

792
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:44,600
zero, and they killed a third of
the population. 

793
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,400
The advantage of the democracy 
is that you can diffuse power, 

794
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:51,700
you can get a variety of 
interest in and you have a check

795
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,100
on a very small number of 
politicians. 

796
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,500
So I think it is the worst 
system except will others. 

797
00:42:58,900 --> 00:43:03,100
Jason, are you a lawyer as well?
No, so my training is in 

798
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:05,800
philosophy only. 
So I have a PhD in philosophy. 

799
00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:11,100
Mark provides the legal smarts. 
Okay, Mark, what would you say 

800
00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:13,200
is the purpose of a legal 
system? 

801
00:43:16,900 --> 00:43:20,600
I suppose. 
There's a there's a sense. 

802
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,100
There's an ambiguity in that, 
right? 

803
00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:25,900
So you can create a legal system
with all sorts of purposes, and 

804
00:43:25,900 --> 00:43:27,500
those purposes can be very 
pernicious. 

805
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:32,700
So, for example, the purpose of 
some of the legal system during 

806
00:43:32,700 --> 00:43:38,300
apartheid was, you know, to 
separate the races to oppress, 

807
00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:40,500
you know, people on the grounds 
of their s. 

808
00:43:40,500 --> 00:43:45,100
It's not a good purpose. 
So, there's a sense in which you

809
00:43:45,100 --> 00:43:48,100
might think what is, how did 
legal systems function and they 

810
00:43:48,100 --> 00:43:49,300
can function in all sorts of 
different. 

811
00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:51,900
That can maintain order, they 
can make it easier for 

812
00:43:51,900 --> 00:43:55,700
businesses to operate. 
They can provide certainty, you 

813
00:43:55,700 --> 00:43:58,600
know, but they can also function
to exclude people, you know, to 

814
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,600
make their lives worse off to 
add regulatory barriers. 

815
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,800
So I think there's a different 
question, which is what is a 

816
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,200
good purpose for a legal system.
You know, what are the things 

817
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:16,200
that we want our legal systems 
to do and I think to my mind we 

818
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,200
want to regulate a little as 
possible. 

819
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,000
You want to provide people with 
as much Freedom as possible and 

820
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,800
you want to be able to 
circumscribe Behavior, which is 

821
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,700
legitimately harmful. 
So as I said regarding Merle, 

822
00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:31,800
the idea that we're going to be 
free to swing our first edge of 

823
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,900
each other's noses. 
I think our legal system should 

824
00:44:34,900 --> 00:44:38,100
be able to punish people 
incarcerate them, arrest them, 

825
00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:39,700
when they perform genuine 
wrongs. 

826
00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:42,600
So if you go out and you murder 
and you rape, you know, I think 

827
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,000
there's a good reason for the 
state to get involved and arrest

828
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:48,200
you and incarcerate. 
You I think that's a legitimate 

829
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,600
role of the state. 
I start to get worried when the 

830
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,300
state sticks his nose in Private
Industry when it says well, you 

831
00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:57,500
know, we think things could be 
more competitive if we started 

832
00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:01,000
to like add these rules and 
regulations and you know, and if

833
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,800
we told you who you're allowed 
to employ and how much you're 

834
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,600
allowed to pay them, and those 
sorts of things, I'd much rather

835
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,800
see that, you know, regulated 
through competition in the 

836
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,200
marketplace. 
You know, I think that's a much 

837
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:15,700
better way to get efficient 
results. 

838
00:45:15,700 --> 00:45:18,500
And I think when the state 
starts the medal, it creates a 

839
00:45:18,500 --> 00:45:20,800
whole bunch of an equator. 
Consequences and then the state 

840
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:22,900
tries to renew their through 
more and more meddling. 

841
00:45:24,700 --> 00:45:30,100
So yeah, I'd say protecting 
citizens from each other is a 

842
00:45:30,107 --> 00:45:33,400
good place to start, but on a 
limited basis. 

843
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,400
Jason with your research in 
philosophy of you, come across 

844
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:42,500
any really good philosophical 
approaches to how people can 

845
00:45:42,500 --> 00:45:46,500
find happiness. 
That's a good question. 

846
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,100
So I think that there are good 
theories about what happiness 

847
00:45:52,100 --> 00:45:54,900
is. 
I think the best theory is one 

848
00:45:54,900 --> 00:45:56,900
that you raised earlier, which 
is hidden is mm. 

849
00:45:57,900 --> 00:46:01,300
I think the best way to achieve 
happiness is by seeking pleasure

850
00:46:01,300 --> 00:46:03,100
in your life and finding 
pleasure. 

851
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,200
I don't think all pleasures are 
equally good. 

852
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,200
I think there are some Pleasures
that are sort of categorically 

853
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,000
better than others, but they 
might not be the ones that we 

854
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,600
traditionally think. 
Categorically better. 

855
00:46:15,900 --> 00:46:20,500
So some people believe that, for
example, listening to back or 

856
00:46:20,500 --> 00:46:23,600
Beethoven is categorically 
better than the pleasure you get

857
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,200
from sex, but I think they might
have gotten that the wrong way 

858
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,600
around. 
So, I think that certain types 

859
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,500
of Pleasures, which have 
traditionally becomes been 

860
00:46:32,500 --> 00:46:35,800
considered base Pleasures, are 
actually very good for you. 

861
00:46:37,100 --> 00:46:38,800
But yeah, I think it's all about
pleasure. 

862
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,600
I, by the way, I am also very 
interested in eastern philosophy

863
00:46:43,700 --> 00:46:48,300
and I I think it adds certain 
texture to the discussion. 

864
00:46:48,300 --> 00:46:52,400
That Western philosophy doesn't 
so Eastern philosophers. 

865
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,500
They do have this notion of 
pleasure as being important, but

866
00:46:55,500 --> 00:46:58,200
they think that it's sort of 
like a Honey Trap. 

867
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:04,400
So yes, you can pursue pleasure 
but in so doing in the pursuit 

868
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:09,900
of pleasure you set up 
suffering, because once you find

869
00:47:09,900 --> 00:47:11,700
that pleasure, you don't want to
let it go. 

870
00:47:11,700 --> 00:47:14,400
But it inevitably will flee from
you. 

871
00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:16,200
You. 
And so the suffering in that, or

872
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,800
if you don't achieve the 
pleasure, then there's the 

873
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,400
suffering in wanting something 
that you don't get. 

874
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,000
So, they Eastern philosophy, 
specifically Buddhist 

875
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,100
philosophy. 
It's very much interested in 

876
00:47:27,100 --> 00:47:30,000
this notion of seeking pleasure.
But doing it in a very 

877
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:35,400
particular way. 
And I think that when you mailed

878
00:47:35,700 --> 00:47:39,700
that Eastern view of how to 
pursue pleasure with the Western

879
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:41,600
View that pleasure is what's 
important. 

880
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:43,800
I think you achieve a better 
theory of well-being or 

881
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,500
happiness. 
And Jason, what do you think? 

882
00:47:47,500 --> 00:47:50,500
Philosophy? 
Can teach us about the concept 

883
00:47:50,500 --> 00:47:54,000
of war and maybe help people see
things a little more. 

884
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,200
Clearly, with regards to being 
in a state of War. 

885
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,100
Mentally. 
Yeah. 

886
00:47:59,100 --> 00:48:00,800
It's a very good question and 
it's a question. 

887
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:02,400
I'm probably not equipped to 
answer. 

888
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,900
There's enormously complex 
debates amongst philosophers 

889
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,900
around the legitimacy of certain
actions in war. 

890
00:48:08,900 --> 00:48:10,500
There's lots of debates. 
For example, around 

891
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:14,200
proportionality. 
Are you allowed to act with? 

892
00:48:14,500 --> 00:48:18,700
Levels of Force, if your 
opponent's or the person you're 

893
00:48:18,700 --> 00:48:21,300
fighting against tax in certain 
ways against you first or 

894
00:48:21,300 --> 00:48:24,300
second. 
There's lots of debates around 

895
00:48:24,300 --> 00:48:27,300
when killing is legitimate or 
not legitimate in war. 

896
00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,000
These are fascinating questions 
their questions, which interest 

897
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:36,300
me, but they're not questions. 
I have answers to part of the 

898
00:48:36,300 --> 00:48:38,500
reason I don't have answers to 
these questions is. 

899
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:44,200
I worry that a lot of these 
debates are metaphysically bad. 

900
00:48:44,500 --> 00:48:48,100
So when we talk about war, we're
talking about the conflict 

901
00:48:48,100 --> 00:48:52,500
between two countries or two 
Nations, but I'm skeptical again

902
00:48:52,500 --> 00:48:55,200
about these group terms, like 
Nations or countries. 

903
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,100
Now, if you get rid of those 
terms and you say, okay, they're

904
00:48:58,100 --> 00:49:00,000
off the table. 
You can talk about Nations or 

905
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,400
countries, then what would a war
be, what would the content of 

906
00:49:03,408 --> 00:49:07,800
that, that term B and now go 
back into history? 

907
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,500
And look at what you mean. 
When you talk about particular 

908
00:49:10,500 --> 00:49:13,700
Wars, I think what you mean is a
series of events. 

909
00:49:13,700 --> 00:49:15,900
Where a whole lot. 
Individual shot at each other. 

910
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:19,600
Now, you might say that's like 
a, it's a watering down of what 

911
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,200
happened and it doesn't quite 
capture what went on, but I 

912
00:49:23,207 --> 00:49:27,000
think it captures, what went on 
much better than the social 

913
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:28,800
explanation. 
Why? 

914
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,100
Well, if you really look at what
happens in war, a lot of 

915
00:49:32,300 --> 00:49:34,700
soldiers, they shoot above the 
enemy. 

916
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,100
They don't even aim at the 
enemy. 

917
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:39,900
Now, if your, if your 
explanation for what's going on 

918
00:49:39,900 --> 00:49:44,100
during D-Day is that you've got 
one side shooting at the other. 

919
00:49:44,300 --> 00:49:46,100
Side, well, that's actually 
wrong. 

920
00:49:46,100 --> 00:49:47,500
There were whole lot of 
individuals. 

921
00:49:47,500 --> 00:49:50,500
The majority of individuals who 
just didn't they didn't aim at 

922
00:49:50,500 --> 00:49:52,100
the other side and they didn't 
shoot it them. 

923
00:49:52,100 --> 00:49:53,600
They didn't, they didn't Target 
them. 

924
00:49:54,100 --> 00:49:56,800
I think you get a much more 
accurate explanation of what's 

925
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,000
going on. 
When you look at the individual 

926
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,200
histories of each of those 
persons on that beach and you 

927
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,500
see how they acted to both 
towards each other and what 

928
00:50:05,500 --> 00:50:07,500
their thoughts and their 
emotions. 

929
00:50:07,500 --> 00:50:10,100
And their mental states were I 
think you get a much more 

930
00:50:10,100 --> 00:50:13,000
complete picture of what's going
on than just saying, well, there

931
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,500
was a war between this nation. 
This nation Mark. 

932
00:50:16,500 --> 00:50:23,500
I just I just I just watched 
Stanley Kubrick's Paths of 

933
00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:26,600
Glory. 
It's an absolutely outstanding 

934
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:31,700
from and I think it captures a 
lot of what Jason saying. 

935
00:50:31,700 --> 00:50:34,600
This idea that when we talk 
about it set in World War one. 

936
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,900
It's about a particular battle 
between the French and the 

937
00:50:37,900 --> 00:50:41,400
Germans. 
But what it does is it looks at 

938
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,600
a microcosm. 
It looks at a particular group 

939
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:48,800
of people of soldiers and how 
they behave and what you have is

940
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,200
two different generals Who start
off in the foam and the one 

941
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,900
tries to persuade the other two 
to mount this impossible, attack

942
00:50:58,100 --> 00:51:00,300
on What's called the anthill to 
capture it. 

943
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:05,100
It's sort of a few hundred feet 
away from the particular trench 

944
00:51:05,100 --> 00:51:07,700
there in. 
And you know, the first general 

945
00:51:07,700 --> 00:51:10,300
says well, it's impossible. 
I would be sending my shoulders 

946
00:51:10,300 --> 00:51:11,600
and to death and they don't 
deserve that. 

947
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,200
They've been brave and 
courageous and I would never do 

948
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:14,600
that. 
To them. 

949
00:51:15,100 --> 00:51:18,100
And the other one says, well, I 
know that you would never do 

950
00:51:18,100 --> 00:51:21,900
that to them. 
But there is the possibility of 

951
00:51:21,900 --> 00:51:25,800
you coming up for a promotion 
and getting an extra star and 

952
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,800
obviously, I, you know, wouldn't
want you to think that these two

953
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,700
things were tied with each other
and, and suddenly, you see the 

954
00:51:30,700 --> 00:51:33,400
other General change his mind 
and say, well, my men are very 

955
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:35,400
brave and maybe they could storm
the anthill. 

956
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:39,300
And so then instructed to go and
do this impossible thing and 

957
00:51:39,300 --> 00:51:41,200
what's interesting is, the way 
the different individual 

958
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,700
soldiers, react. 
So some of them run over and And

959
00:51:44,700 --> 00:51:48,400
you know, our immediately shot 
to death by the other soldiers, 

960
00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:52,000
some of them hunker down and 
they wait. 

961
00:51:53,100 --> 00:51:58,100
And they are then the, the 
general who had sort of 

962
00:51:58,100 --> 00:52:00,800
initially sort of said, I don't 
want to kill my soldiers seized 

963
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,100
this group of people hunkering 
down and he instructs his own, 

964
00:52:05,100 --> 00:52:07,800
bombardier's to bomb them, to 
encourage them to get out of the

965
00:52:07,808 --> 00:52:09,800
trenches, to run and there's a 
refusal. 

966
00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:13,200
So again, you have an individual
who says, you know, I'm going to

967
00:52:13,500 --> 00:52:15,500
use my own moral. 
Agency, and I'm not going to 

968
00:52:15,500 --> 00:52:18,900
abide by your orders. 
So when we Cloud this whole 

969
00:52:18,900 --> 00:52:20,800
thing, with the idea of the 
French version of the Germans 

970
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:27,200
who miss out on those nuances, 
but having said that, it might 

971
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,300
be the case that we can sort of 
look at individual behavior, and

972
00:52:30,300 --> 00:52:32,600
we should look at individual 
accountability. 

973
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,600
There's a trial that happens and
three of the soldiers are held 

974
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:40,200
up for cowardice, for refusing, 
to storm the storm until and 

975
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:41,800
there's individual stories of 
play. 

976
00:52:42,700 --> 00:52:44,200
And then, the film really is 
absolutely remarkable. 

977
00:52:44,300 --> 00:52:46,200
Markable for something that was 
meant as ago. 

978
00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:50,800
But I do think we can sensibly 
talk about some group Behavior. 

979
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,500
I think it might be that not all
actions. 

980
00:52:54,500 --> 00:52:58,000
Can be explained by using blunt 
terms, but I think we might be 

981
00:52:58,008 --> 00:53:02,100
able to sort of know enough. 
There's I think it's an 

982
00:53:02,100 --> 00:53:06,200
Aristotle line about, you know, 
when we're trying to work out. 

983
00:53:06,300 --> 00:53:10,800
You know, how precise is a right
angle in a the terms used by a 

984
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,200
geometrician and a carpenter are
different, you know, for the 

985
00:53:14,300 --> 00:53:17,200
Attrition, it must be exactly 90
degrees for the carpenter. 

986
00:53:17,500 --> 00:53:19,600
Well, 89-91. 
It's good enough, you know, 

987
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:20,800
we're trying to build a table 
here. 

988
00:53:21,900 --> 00:53:24,800
And so I think we've got to 
accept some degree of 

989
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,900
imperfection in our language. 
I think Jason Rebels against 

990
00:53:27,900 --> 00:53:29,800
that and I think it's important 
to be very precise in the 

991
00:53:29,808 --> 00:53:33,800
language and we should be as 
precise as needs be, but I'm 

992
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:38,700
worried about chucking some of 
our useful metaphysics in a way 

993
00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:40,700
that actually might leave us 
feeling. 

994
00:53:40,700 --> 00:53:43,800
Like we can say nothing, you 
know, and it is the case that 

995
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:45,600
the war. 
You're going on between Russia 

996
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:48,500
and Ukraine is leading to an 
enormous amount of suffering. 

997
00:53:48,700 --> 00:53:50,700
A lot of death. 
And I think we can pin some 

998
00:53:50,700 --> 00:53:54,500
responsibility on particular 
individuals and maybe we can 

999
00:53:54,500 --> 00:53:56,100
have some group responsibilities
as well. 

1000
00:53:57,300 --> 00:54:00,600
So my final question is going to
be asking each of you. 

1001
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,900
What is the most important 
logical fallacy, that people 

1002
00:54:04,900 --> 00:54:06,600
need to know about? 
So they can think. 

1003
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,900
Clearly I want to give you a 
second to think about it though.

1004
00:54:09,700 --> 00:54:12,400
I want to read my favorite. 
This is from a book titled, the 

1005
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,400
use and abuse of logic by Madsen
Prairie. 

1006
00:54:14,700 --> 00:54:19,200
He titles this fallacy 
unobtainable Perfection when the

1007
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,600
arguments for and against 
courses of action are assessed. 

1008
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:26,400
It is important to remember that
the choice has to be made from 

1009
00:54:26,500 --> 00:54:29,100
the available. 
No, Alternatives, all of them 

1010
00:54:29,100 --> 00:54:31,900
might be criticized for their 
imperfections as might the 

1011
00:54:31,900 --> 00:54:34,200
status quo. 
Unless one of the options is 

1012
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:36,600
perfect. 
The imperfections of the others 

1013
00:54:36,700 --> 00:54:39,100
are insufficient grounds for 
rejection. 

1014
00:54:39,300 --> 00:54:42,500
The fallacy of unobtainable 
perfection is committed when a 

1015
00:54:42,500 --> 00:54:47,200
lack of perfection is urged. 
As a basis for rejection, even 

1016
00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:49,800
though none of the Alternatives 
is perfect. 

1017
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:51,400
Either. 
Jason. 

1018
00:54:51,500 --> 00:54:53,700
What is the most important 
logical fallacy? 

1019
00:54:53,700 --> 00:54:57,900
People should know about? 
Well, the rebellious person in 

1020
00:54:57,900 --> 00:55:00,100
me wants to say, it's the 
fallacy fallacy. 

1021
00:55:00,700 --> 00:55:03,700
So it's the fact it's the 
fallacy that when you commit a 

1022
00:55:03,700 --> 00:55:07,900
fallacy that you definitely 
performed or at a bad arguments,

1023
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:14,100
by the way, a good portion of my
professional life is spent 

1024
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:18,000
teaching lawyers how to argue 
and I always start by giving 

1025
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,200
them a list of fallacies. 
So I say well these are, these 

1026
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:26,000
are the ways you shouldn't argue
and so it seems like Policies 

1027
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:29,300
are important to avoid and to 
point out in your opponent. 

1028
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:32,800
What's interesting though is, 
especially when you start doing 

1029
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:34,600
philosophy. 
You become quite obsessed with 

1030
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:38,600
fallacies and and pointing them 
out and avoiding them. 

1031
00:55:38,900 --> 00:55:43,400
And then later you start to 
question the texture of those 

1032
00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:45,200
fallacies. 
And, you know, when is that 

1033
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,900
fallacy operating a good 
example, is the ad hoc fallacy. 

1034
00:55:48,900 --> 00:55:53,000
So well, what is an ad? 
Hoc statement? 

1035
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,100
It's a statement that you add to
a theory. 

1036
00:55:55,500 --> 00:55:59,900
After the theory has received 
count, examples, or counter 

1037
00:55:59,900 --> 00:56:02,800
evidence and you add to the 
theory in order to accommodate 

1038
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,700
that evidence. 
But you weren't able to put that

1039
00:56:05,700 --> 00:56:08,400
into the theory before you 
receive the content evidence. 

1040
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,200
So that, the theory could 
predict that counter evidence to

1041
00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:13,100
begin with. 
So that sounds quite abstract, 

1042
00:56:13,100 --> 00:56:17,400
but I'll give you an example. 
So for example, the original 

1043
00:56:17,400 --> 00:56:20,300
creationist theory about how the
world was created. 

1044
00:56:20,900 --> 00:56:25,200
Is that it was created by God as
the Bible to set the world. 

1045
00:56:25,300 --> 00:56:28,200
Is created and was created a 
certain number of years ago, a 

1046
00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:33,700
few thousand years ago, but then
you scientists start digging in 

1047
00:56:33,700 --> 00:56:39,500
the sand and and and they find 
fossils is a fossil record that 

1048
00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:42,700
appears to be carbon dated back 
to millions and millions of 

1049
00:56:42,700 --> 00:56:45,400
years ago. 
So what does that mean? 

1050
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:47,700
Well, the creationist says, 
okay. 

1051
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:50,900
Here's my ad. 
Hoc addition to the Creations 

1052
00:56:50,900 --> 00:56:55,500
Theory, my ad hoc Edition. 
Is that God put those Those 

1053
00:56:55,500 --> 00:56:59,400
bones those fossils in the 
ground, with the apparent carbon

1054
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:03,600
dating of being millions of 
years old, as a test to your 

1055
00:57:03,600 --> 00:57:06,300
faith. 
The world is not millions of 

1056
00:57:06,300 --> 00:57:09,600
years old, but he puts them in 
the ground, so that you will 

1057
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:15,000
think your doubt God and will 
you come out the other side of 

1058
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,500
this Dart? 
So it's an ad-hoc addition to 

1059
00:57:17,500 --> 00:57:20,700
creationism. 
The original creationist Theory,

1060
00:57:20,700 --> 00:57:25,100
did not predict that will that 
will find the fossil record. 

1061
00:57:25,300 --> 00:57:28,600
Ground, so they added this off 
to the content evidence was 

1062
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:30,600
discovered. 
Now. 

1063
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:36,300
This is a good example because 
ad hoc ad hoc claims, although 

1064
00:57:36,300 --> 00:57:38,300
their ad hoc. 
And that's a fallacy. 

1065
00:57:38,300 --> 00:57:41,400
It's a phallus is fallacious to 
give at her claims. 

1066
00:57:41,700 --> 00:57:45,400
They could nevertheless be true.
It is possible that God did 

1067
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,900
this, right? 
It's unlikely but it's possible.

1068
00:57:49,300 --> 00:57:53,300
And so something that a lot of 
philosophers do as they progress

1069
00:57:53,300 --> 00:57:55,100
through their careers as they 
say, yes. 

1070
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:57,700
So this, this could be 
fallacious, but that doesn't 

1071
00:57:57,700 --> 00:58:00,400
necessarily rule out that. 
It's that it's correct. 

1072
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:04,100
So I quite like the fallacy 
fallacy, the fallacy. 

1073
00:58:04,100 --> 00:58:06,800
That just because something is 
fallacious, that it's 

1074
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:12,500
necessarily incorrect invalid. 
Wrong Mark, most important, 

1075
00:58:12,500 --> 00:58:14,500
logical, fallacy. 
People should know about. 

1076
00:58:16,300 --> 00:58:19,800
I'll give an obvious one, which 
is the ad hominem fallacy, that 

1077
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:23,600
idea that we should judge the 
quality of someone's argument 

1078
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:26,300
based on their identity. 
And I It's important because we 

1079
00:58:26,300 --> 00:58:29,600
see it all the time. 
So there's a lot of talk. 

1080
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:33,200
That so-and-so shouldn't be 
allowed to speak because of 

1081
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:38,200
their sex, or their race or 
their gender identity and their 

1082
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,100
view should be discounted on 
that basis. 

1083
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,600
That strikes me as really 
pernicious and dangerous. 

1084
00:58:45,300 --> 00:58:48,400
The one that I think is an 
interesting other one that 

1085
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:50,600
people might not be aware of is 
survivorship bias. 

1086
00:58:51,300 --> 00:58:56,300
So there's this, if you going 
And gather a whole bunch of the 

1087
00:58:56,308 --> 00:58:59,300
most successful CEOs of 
companies and you say to them, 

1088
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:01,000
you know, what's the one thing 
that you have in common? 

1089
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,500
Why did you prosper? 
And they'll say I took risks? 

1090
00:59:04,100 --> 00:59:06,500
So see, taking risks, make 
successful is successful. 

1091
00:59:06,500 --> 00:59:08,700
People took risks and look how 
rich they are. 

1092
00:59:09,500 --> 00:59:12,800
But you only look at the people 
who survived. 

1093
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,200
If you look in the graveyard and
you look at all those people who

1094
00:59:15,500 --> 00:59:18,900
took risks and are now bankrupt 
and you know, hearing from them 

1095
00:59:19,100 --> 00:59:21,500
and they'll say what's the one 
reason why you fuck out? 

1096
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:24,200
I took a lot of risks, man. 
And those wrists in payoff. 

1097
00:59:25,900 --> 00:59:30,200
So, I think when we're surveying
evidence, you want to work out? 

1098
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:34,800
What am I not seeing? 
There's a famous, give you a war

1099
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:39,800
example, during World War Two. 
There was a question about how 

1100
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:44,300
airplanes, or, to be redesigned.
And so they had a whole bunch of

1101
00:59:44,308 --> 00:59:46,300
bullet holes on the airplanes 
and they put up heat maps and 

1102
00:59:46,300 --> 00:59:48,800
they said, okay. 
Well, what we need to do is 

1103
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:51,000
these are the places where these
airplanes are getting fire. 

1104
00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:54,800
We should reinforce those parts 
of the airplane and the engineer

1105
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,500
said, Ed we should do the exact 
opposite. 

1106
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,100
He says, you're only looking at 
the planes that came back. 

1107
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:03,000
Those are clearly the places 
that can survive the bull 

1108
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,100
attacks. 
What you want to look at is the 

1109
01:00:05,100 --> 01:00:06,900
graveyard all the planes that 
sunk. 

1110
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,700
You know, they probably got shot
in places that aren't on the 

1111
01:00:09,700 --> 01:00:12,500
heat map. 
So we should reinforce those 

1112
01:00:12,500 --> 01:00:16,500
spots and that kind of lateral 
thinking I think is a is a 

1113
01:00:16,508 --> 01:00:18,000
clever way of getting to the 
truth. 

1114
01:00:18,900 --> 01:00:20,800
Jason. 
Did you say you guys have six 

1115
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:24,500
books published? 
Yes, so we've published six 

1116
01:00:24,500 --> 01:00:27,700
books Within Brandon of that 
Series. 

1117
01:00:27,700 --> 01:00:30,700
So basically every week we 
interview, another philosopher 

1118
01:00:31,100 --> 01:00:33,800
and we take our favorite 
episodes and we combined them 

1119
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:35,700
into books. 
So we have two episodes that are

1120
01:00:35,707 --> 01:00:39,500
transcribed and then worked on 
both by us and the philosopher. 

1121
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,400
So we transcribe it, we give it 
to an editor. 

1122
01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:47,400
Then that philosopher works on 
it and we pair that episode with

1123
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:50,700
another philosopher who talks 
about something similar, or the 

1124
01:00:50,700 --> 01:00:52,800
very same topic from the 
opposite perspective. 

1125
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:56,100
And in some of our books, what's
really nice is that At the two 

1126
01:00:56,100 --> 01:00:58,400
philosophers within the book, 
what they'll do is they'll argue

1127
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:00,800
back and forth at the end of the
book, they'll give objections 

1128
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:04,400
and responses and and that's 
quite rare in philosophy. 

1129
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,200
You do see it in journal 
articles that people sometimes 

1130
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,600
submit to a journal and then 
they'll be a back-and-forth, but

1131
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:13,100
it is rare. 
So to get that happening in the 

1132
01:01:13,100 --> 01:01:17,000
book, really, really is quite 
quite a unique offering. 

1133
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:19,600
So we have six of these on all 
sorts of topics. 

1134
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,600
Mark mentioned, one of them, the
meaning of Life Book, but we've 

1135
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:24,400
got others as well. 
We've got one in the philosophy 

1136
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:26,600
of science fiction. 
And we've got one with Raja 

1137
01:01:26,600 --> 01:01:29,000
helwani on the philosophy of 
love and sex. 

1138
01:01:29,600 --> 01:01:32,600
So we've got quite a quite a 
wide range of books and we 

1139
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:36,100
planning to do more and which 
one of those is your favorite. 

1140
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:40,800
It's the one that I'm the 
primary author of it's the 

1141
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:44,500
philosophy of science fiction 
and Mark, you guys have so many 

1142
01:01:44,500 --> 01:01:49,100
videos, if someone wants to get 
an introduction into your work. 

1143
01:01:49,100 --> 01:01:52,800
What is one introduction video 
that they should check out to 

1144
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:54,300
get a good idea of what you guys
do. 

1145
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,900
I suppose it's like saying you 
run a grocery store with a whole

1146
01:02:00,900 --> 01:02:03,400
bunch of different foods. 
What's the food people should 

1147
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:05,500
eat it? 
Sort of depends a little bit on 

1148
01:02:05,500 --> 01:02:08,200
their taste. 
I can tell you what our most 

1149
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:12,100
popular videos are one with 
David Bennett on meaning of life

1150
01:02:12,100 --> 01:02:15,000
is the most popular and David is
an unbelievable thinker. 

1151
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:17,300
We've had them on the show a 
couple of times and I think 

1152
01:02:17,300 --> 01:02:18,800
that's an excellent place to 
start. 

1153
01:02:20,300 --> 01:02:23,100
I think those that are 
interested in libertarianism, 

1154
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,300
then I would I would really 
recommend our episodes with with

1155
01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:30,200
Humor. 
If you're interested in hard 

1156
01:02:30,200 --> 01:02:35,200
moral problems, we have a pretty
famous utilitarian philosopher 

1157
01:02:35,300 --> 01:02:37,500
called Alice the Norcross on to 
talk about utilitarianism. 

1158
01:02:37,500 --> 01:02:40,900
And that's a really excellent 
introduction to that kind of 

1159
01:02:40,900 --> 01:02:43,900
moral theory. 
If you're looking for something 

1160
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,700
like a little bit contentious 
and there's two episodes that I 

1161
01:02:46,707 --> 01:02:49,900
would highly recommend. 
The one is with Rebecca to Val 

1162
01:02:49,900 --> 01:02:52,100
on trans rationalism. 
And the other one is with 

1163
01:02:52,100 --> 01:02:57,700
Kathleen stock on on gender and 
And on and on transgender 

1164
01:02:57,700 --> 01:03:00,300
issues. 
Thanks to everyone for watching.

1165
01:03:00,300 --> 01:03:02,800
Keith Knight, don't tread on 
anyone and the libertarian 

1166
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:06,200
Institute links to all of these 
things that we've discussed will

1167
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,500
be in the description below. 
Gentlemen. 

1168
01:03:08,500 --> 01:03:11,300
Thank you so much for your time.
Thank you for having us on the 

1169
01:03:11,308 --> 01:03:13,500
show. 
Absolute pleasure.