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Welcome to Keith's night. 
Don't tread on anyone. 

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Andy, libertarian Institute 
today. 

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I am joined by. 
Dr. Chris Freeman. 

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He is a philosophy. 
Professor at William and Mary. 

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He's the author of why it's okay
to ignore politics and 

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unequivocal Justice. 
Dr. Freeman. 

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Thank you so much for your time.
Thanks for having me. 

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If you had to nail down the most
important lesson you learn from 

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the work of Robert nozick. 
One two, or three, what would 

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you say? 
That is? 

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I like the question. 
That's a good question. 

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Well, I don't know. 
So this might not be the 

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response that you're looking 
for. 

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Although this is what came to 
mind. 

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First this I learned. 
I don't know. 

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I think that the right way to 
kind of conduct your research as

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an academic. 
To pursue the arguments where 

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they lead and not worry so much 
about the kind of reaction that 

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you might get from your 
colleagues. 

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So knows their Grote Anarchy 
State and Utopia. 

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It's a great book. 
It's one of my favorites, but 

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from everything I've heard, his 
colleagues weren't in love with 

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it. 
And he actually suffered social 

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consequences as a result of it, 
but he, but he wrote the book. 

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And, you know, he taught the 
courses that, you know, he 

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taught the way he wanted to. 
And he was very Be courageous 

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and the way he went about his 
career. 

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And so that's something that I 
think is is worth emulating and 

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worth learning from now. 
I can maybe give you a more. 

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I don't know a response that is 
more directly connected to some 

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of his actual arguments. 
So I think maybe knows it's 

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great. 
Insight is a political 

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philosopher, Anarchy State, and 
Utopia, is that the sorts of 

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reasons that liberal egalitarian
is like, John, Rawls. 

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Give Are prioritizing civil or 
or political Liberty? 

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So things like freedom of 
speech, freedom of Association, 

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freedom of the press those sorts
of things and Democratic 

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freedoms, as well are also 
reasons to protect and 

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prioritize economic Liberties 
like the freedom to own 

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productive property, freedom of 
contact contract, freedom of 

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exchange and so on. 
And so I think really one way of

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thinking about what Noah's Ark 
is up to and Anarchy State and 

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Utopia is doing that a 
consistent liberalism leads to 

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libertarianism. 
What is philosophy and why do 

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you think it's important? 
He's a good question. 

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Well philosophy. 
I don't know. 

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I mean means love of wisdom. 
So that's that's a pretty good 

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start. 
I think one of the unique 

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features of philosophy and this 
also speaks to why I think it's 

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important is I think it's one of
the few disciplines that doesn't

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really let you take anything 
for. 

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Granted. 
You take a course in chemistry, 

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you can take for granted the 
existence of chemicals. 

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You take a philosophy. 
Words can't really take anything

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for granted. 
You take, you can't take for 

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granted that there's an external
world or anything like that. 

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You have to argue for it. 
You have to question your 

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assumptions. 
And so even if you don't become 

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a professional philosopher and 
you know, those jobs are pretty 

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scarce these days so it's maybe 
not the most promising career 

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path. 
I think you can learn something 

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from Philosophy by internalizing
this lesson that you know, don't

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take things for granted question
your assumptions things. 

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That might seem like common 
Common Sense, might turn out to 

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be false. 
I love these thought experiments

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you give one of them is, you 
know, you can ask people, is it 

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okay to kill one person to, you 
know, take their organs and then

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save the lives of seven people. 
But if you ask people, whether 

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or not, it's okay to vote, they 
will say unequivocally. 

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Yes. 
I'm not even having this 

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conversation now, but we don't 
usually run into this, where we 

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are talking to someone and say, 
should I kill them and harvest 

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their organs to save more lives?
Is one of the many great thought

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experiments in both of your 
books. 

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Links to both of which will be 
in the description below. 

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What is the importance of 
thought experiments? 

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If we never actually encounter 
these events in the real world? 

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Yeah, and I should say that, you
know, I wish I could take credit

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for that particular thought 
experiment about killing the one

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and harvesting their organs to 
say, five. 

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That's an old Chestnut. 
So if you haven't been talking 

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to a lot of people about these 
sorts of crazy scenarios, that 

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just tells me you need more 
philosophers on the show. 

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We've got, we've got a million 
of Of them. 

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But yeah, so I think these 
thought experiments can 

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illuminate basic moral 
principles. 

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So I'll just, so, I'll just run 
with the one that you've already

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brought up. 
So you have this scenario where 

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you say, look, maybe you have 
five patients, all of whom are 

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dying of organ failure. 
Each one needs a different organ

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to live and there are no 
volunteers offering up their 

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organs. 
And so these patients are going 

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to die. 
However, you know, there's an 

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innocent person. 
Who's a match for all five. 

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You can kill the one, we 
distribute their organs and save

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the five. 
Should you do this? 

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Now? 
You might say this is not really

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a scenario that the doctors 
frequently encounter. 

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So what's the point of 
considering it? 

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Well, the point is to test a 
principle that might say 

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something like perform the 
action that does the most good 

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or promotes the most welfare or 
seems the most lives. 

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And if you think that it's wrong
for the doctor to kill the one 

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to save the five, in that case, 
then you might not be tempted. 

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By this principle that says, you
know, always perform the action 

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that saves the most lives or 
does the most good. 

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Do you see any important 
insights in Plato's allegory of 

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the cave? 
I do that's a bit outside my, a 

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bit outside my wheelhouse. 
I haven't got, you know My 

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Philosophy tends to go to 1970 
and that's as far back as I go, 

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these days. 
But I do like the, the allegory 

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of the cave. 
I mean, I think there's this 

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kind of goes back to the idea 
that, you know, maybe it 

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shouldn't take common-sense for 
granted. 

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Don't think don't take the way 
that things appear as the final 

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word. 
And one thing that philosophy 

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can do is just sort of cast a 
new light. 

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These issues that have become 
very familiar to us and maybe we

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become complacent in the way 
that we think, or react. 

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And like I said, you just, you 
know, take things for granted, 

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you take people's word for it, 
but philosophy can, you know, 

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maybe helps you get out of the 
cave and see the sunlight for at

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least, for some cases? 
Perhaps at least. 

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That's the hope. 
That's the hope. 

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What is the thesis of your book?
Why it's okay to ignore 

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politics. 
Well, the thesis is it's okay to

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ignore politics. 
That's so that's the short 

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version. 
The slightly longer version is 

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that. 
It's morally better for most 

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people, maybe not everyone. 
But for most people, if you take

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the time and energy that you 
might allocate to politics to 

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something like preparing and 
casting a vote. 

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And you reallocate that to other
more effective forms of private 

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altruism. 
So my favorite example, is 

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something like earning extra 
money to donate to the against 

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malaria Foundation. 
This is perhaps the world's most

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efficient charity gives you sort
of the most bang for your buck 

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so to speak. 
So it's a dollar sent to this 

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charity is going to do more good
than a dollar sent anywhere 

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else. 
And so my argument is rather 

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than spend your time on politics
again for most people, which is 

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very Very unlikely to produce 
any good. 

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Spend that time doing something 
that that will produce good and 

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potentially a lot of good 
potentially saving lives. 

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How did you respond to the 
criticism that what the 

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individual does? 
When they're voting? 

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They realize that necessarily 
their vote doesn't change 

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anything but just as if I go 
into someone's house and steal 

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one item. 
I'm not changing the entire 

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direction of the rest of their 
life. 

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In fact, they might not even 
know the items gone. 

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What the voter is attempting to 
do, is harmonize their interest 

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with the interest of society, as
a whole, by participating in 

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participatory democracy. 
I forget what, what what the 

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term is, but that's what the 
voters actually doing. 

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They know they alone are not 
saving the world. 

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However, they are engaged in an 
activity, which on net will will

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do. 
So how do you respond to that? 

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I would draw a distinction 
between the claim that politics 

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one practice collectively has no
impact, which is, which is 

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false. 
Surely. 

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It does have an impact and an 
individual's participation in 

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politics, having an impact, 
which frequently it fails to 

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have an impact. 
And And more directly to your 

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question. 
I would say there are ways of 

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sort of promoting the goals that
you might promote via politics 

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more effectively via 
non-political mean. 

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So, just very simple example, 
could be something like food 

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insecurity. 
Maybe you participate in 

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politics because you're worried 
about food, insecurity, you're 

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worried that people aren't 
getting enough to eat one. 

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Option would be researching 
candidates their platforms, see 

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how well, they Answer this 
problem of food, insecurity and 

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then go out and cast a vote for 
the one that you think is best. 

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That's one way of doing it. 
But of course your vote is very 

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unlikely to make a difference to
whether or not that person could

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get selected for all practical 
purposes. 

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It's not going to make any 
difference. 

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The alternative is you spend the
time that you would have spent 

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on Politics on non-political 
forms of altruism? 

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And in particular non-political 
ways of addressing the problem 

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of food, insecurity, and there 
are various ways. 

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You could do this. 
Maybe this means, Learning to 

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donate to a food bank. 
Maybe this means volunteering at

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a food bank, you know, you can 
use your imagination. 

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But the idea here is that you 
could still contribute to that 

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goal that you think is 
important. 

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And that, you think other 
political participants are 

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contributing to say solving the 
problem of food insecurity. 

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But if you pursue it, via 
non-political means you'll 

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actually make a difference. 
You can actually help people get

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fed who otherwise wouldn't get 
fat. 

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Let's say a lot of people read 
this book and only the very 

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humble people are persuaded by 
the arguments. 

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Look, I don't have the 
information. 

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So I'm not going to do this. 
So I'm going to engage in 

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effective altruism in place of 
voting will. 

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All this does is open up a void 
for the most evil non people 

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without humility to fill this 
void. 

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Making things worse than that, 
than they, otherwise would have 

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been. 
What do you say? 

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To that response. 
Well, I in part, I love the 

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worried because you're assuming 
that my, you know, the most 

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rational and humble readers will
be persuaded by me. 

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I'm very flattered by this 
objection. 

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I like this objection, you know,
my basic response is I try to be

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realistic about my impact. 
So if it were the case that, you

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know, I like this book and I 
draw a ton of really Lee humble,

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rational people away from 
politics. 

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And like you said this, maybe 
there's this new void, that's, 

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that's being filled up by people
who are not rational, and 

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humbleness makes our politics 
much worse. 

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That would be bad. 
However, I I just don't think 

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I'm not influential. 
I'm happy to be wrong. 

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I'm happy to be more influential
than I think I am. 

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But I think you know, I don't 
know how many people I could 

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persuade with this book. 
I don't think it's enough to 

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make a difference to something 
like national scale. 

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Tex. 
But if you can, you know, if it 

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changes a few people's minds and
they really do shift their 

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attention away from politics and
toward effective altruism. 

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Then it won't actually have any 
meaningful impact on politics. 

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That's going to stay the same, 
but it could mean that some 

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lives get saved that otherwise 
wouldn't get saved. 

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And so I think that would be, 
that would be a win. 

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That would be, that would be a 
moral Improvement. 

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When it comes to, I believe the 
final chapter of the book you 

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talk about, not only is it bad 
in the aggregate. 

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When a bunch of ignorant, people
waste a bunch of time engaging 

230
00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:23,700
in political activity, but it's 
bad for you individually to 

231
00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:28,800
spend all this time watching the
news media and it's also bad for

232
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,900
your relationships. 
What evidence do you have that 

233
00:12:31,900 --> 00:12:33,900
engaging in political 
activities? 

234
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:39,300
Is bad for us, mentally and our 
The closest relationships in our

235
00:12:39,308 --> 00:12:40,400
life. 
Yeah. 

236
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,400
So there's a lot of evidence 
that suggests, it's bad for us 

237
00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,700
for our mental well-being. 
Particularly. 

238
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,500
So, you know, just casting your 
vote and getting on with your 

239
00:12:48,500 --> 00:12:51,600
life, is not a big deal, but 
it's really the constant 

240
00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,500
attention paid to politics. 
That's bad for us. 

241
00:12:54,700 --> 00:12:59,700
So constantly scanning social 
media is, you know, it causes 

242
00:12:59,700 --> 00:13:02,100
anxiety. 
It causes sleeplessness. 

243
00:13:02,100 --> 00:13:05,100
It actually can worsen our 
physical well-being. 

244
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And the thing is that, you know,
for what But you know, like I 

245
00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,800
said, it's not as though you can
use the information that you 

246
00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,600
will acquire, in this way to 
actually make a difference. 

247
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So we're making ourselves more 
stress, more anxious, Sleepless 

248
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for no further end. 
And I think that's an additional

249
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reason to disengage from 
politics. 

250
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:29,700
And in terms of relationships 
being bad for our relationships.

251
00:13:29,700 --> 00:13:32,800
I mean, there's a lot of 
evidence now that suggested that

252
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,400
an increasing number of people, 
simply refused to associate with

253
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,800
members of the other party. 
They won't date members of the 

254
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,000
other party. 
They don't want their children, 

255
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,500
dating members of the other 
party. 

256
00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:47,200
And so, you know, basically 
you're cutting yourself off 

257
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from, from half of the country 
for political reasons. 

258
00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:54,900
And you know, this clearly is 
going to have a negative impact 

259
00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:57,800
on on your relationship to other
people least other people in the

260
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,700
other party. 
Do you see this as a result of 

261
00:14:02,700 --> 00:14:05,000
the state? 
Well, not only existing but 

262
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,500
being so big like everything, it
touches it, then we then have to

263
00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:14,400
have a one-size-fits-all policy.
So it's not just some hobby that

264
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,400
you can have. 
It's like, look I want to be 

265
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,400
friends. 
But what if I'm an atheist and 

266
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,700
you're an Orthodox Christian and
we get to vote on what religion 

267
00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:23,900
everyone is? 
Okay. 

268
00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:26,600
Well, I wanted to be friends, 
but now I have to violently 

269
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:31,200
impose my will on you or I don't
get my way and Vice versa is 

270
00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,600
this just me engaged in seeing 
something. 

271
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,400
I already want to see where I 
pin this on big government. 

272
00:14:37,900 --> 00:14:40,300
I think that is part of it. 
I think that is part of it. 

273
00:14:40,300 --> 00:14:42,800
There's there's this great 
thought experiment from from a 

274
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,900
Georgetown Professor named John 
has Miss where he asks us to 

275
00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:50,000
imagine a world in which the 
choice of which car, you get to 

276
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,300
drive becomes politically 
determined like, you know, like 

277
00:14:55,300 --> 00:14:59,200
the whole country gets one type 
of car and we vote on it. 

278
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,600
And he says, well you could 
imagine very quickly. 

279
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:03,600
This becomes a hot political 
issue. 

280
00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,500
Like, you know, we've become 
politically divided over the 

281
00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:08,900
question of cars. 
Now, as things like we're 

282
00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:10,700
actually kind of a little too 
politically divided over the 

283
00:15:10,700 --> 00:15:15,400
crushed cars now, but imagine 
how Amplified that would be in a

284
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,100
world where car choices come 
under political control. 

285
00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:21,800
We have much more conflict over 
this issue, where there's not a 

286
00:15:21,808 --> 00:15:24,300
ton right now, but of course, 
this is what you see. 

287
00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:28,100
In other cases that are 
politicized, where you have 

288
00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:31,000
these choices that could be Two 
individuals or individual 

289
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,300
families. 
And we can kind of, you know, go

290
00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:35,500
our separate ways and we don't 
have to fight about it, but were

291
00:15:35,500 --> 00:15:39,800
drawn into these conflicts 
because the state really does 

292
00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:45,200
have such a wide range of things
that it influences these days. 

293
00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:52,100
People will frequently see 
watching the news and reading 

294
00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:56,000
the newspaper reading articles 
on these, you know, news sites 

295
00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:59,300
as the way that you can 
accurately. 

296
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:03,800
Get informed. 
Do you have any Superior ways of

297
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,800
let's say, well we're trying to 
get people to ignore politics. 

298
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,700
So maybe I should take a 
different direction here, if 

299
00:16:09,700 --> 00:16:13,400
someone really wants to be 
informed, because they simply 

300
00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,100
want to have an understanding of
what's going on. 

301
00:16:16,300 --> 00:16:18,500
The world. 
What approach would you tell 

302
00:16:18,500 --> 00:16:20,900
them to take it? 
What's up? 

303
00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:22,000
Right? 
So the first thing I would say 

304
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,100
is well, maybe let's take a step
back and ask if you really want 

305
00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:26,600
to do this. 
If this is how you want to spend

306
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,200
your time, but for argument's 
sake, let's say that you do. 

307
00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:32,700
So I do think that there are 
sources that are, that are less 

308
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:36,000
partisan than others. 
I think that's, that's a good 

309
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,600
start, but it's hard. 
It's hard. 

310
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,300
So, I think people have this 
idea that you can become well, 

311
00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:47,400
informed and unbiased or make. 
You know, have good political 

312
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:52,300
judgment simply by reading 
nonpartisan sources and I think 

313
00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:57,200
to some extent that can help, 
but but there's this further 

314
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,100
obstacle, which is interpreting 
the information in an unbiased 

315
00:17:01,100 --> 00:17:03,900
way. 
So you could get, you could just

316
00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:09,099
get you, no factual information.
That seems relevant to politics,

317
00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:12,900
but you might be biased in the 
way that you interpret it. 

318
00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:17,099
And so it's not enough to just 
know the facts about Politics. 

319
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,599
You actually have to be able to 
process it and interpret it in 

320
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:23,800
an unbiased way and that's 
really hard to do. 

321
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,800
And as far as I can tell, 
there's actually not a whole lot

322
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,700
of evidence based strategies for
D biasing ourselves. 

323
00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:34,200
So I think that there are there 
are ways to do it. 

324
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:39,800
That, that shows some promise 
but it's not clear how effective

325
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:41,100
they are going to turn out to 
be. 

326
00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:46,700
So for example, it turns out 
that if people were Reflect on 

327
00:17:46,700 --> 00:17:50,000
their own ignorance of the 
mechanics of policy. 

328
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,400
They become a little bit more 
humble. 

329
00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:57,300
So, in other words, you say, you
know, I've got this problem with

330
00:17:57,300 --> 00:17:59,400
Social Security, what, you know,
whatever it might be. 

331
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,800
I don't like Social Security and
then you, you have them reflect 

332
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:04,900
upon whether or not, they 
actually know how, you know, 

333
00:18:04,900 --> 00:18:08,900
Social Security Works. 
Maybe, I don't quite get it and 

334
00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:11,100
then they become a little bit 
more humble and can actually 

335
00:18:11,100 --> 00:18:14,100
sort of open them up to counter 
arguments, and, and things like 

336
00:18:14,100 --> 00:18:15,900
that. 
That might be one way to do it. 

337
00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,700
There are other, there are other
ways that are you might try 

338
00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:21,400
again. 
It's not, it's not quite clear 

339
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,400
how successful they are. 
But having sort of friendly 

340
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,400
conversations without party 
members about topics that you 

341
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:32,100
disagree with. 
But you kind of start out not 

342
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:35,700
with the disagreement but by 
discussing things that you do 

343
00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:37,500
agree about. 
So yeah, okay. 

344
00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:38,900
We're on the same page about 
this now. 

345
00:18:38,900 --> 00:18:41,900
Let's let's talk about that. 
This also seems to soften up our

346
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:43,900
bias a little bit. 
The thing is that's a lot of 

347
00:18:43,908 --> 00:18:45,500
work. 
There's a lot of work. 

348
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,300
It's Not clear how effective 
they are. 

349
00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:48,800
Look at it. 
There's there's some promise but

350
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,400
it's, you know, it remains to be
seen. 

351
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,600
I think exactly how how 
successful they'll be. 

352
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,900
You got to acquire all this 
information and the payoff is 

353
00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:58,000
very, very low. 
So maybe it means you have an 

354
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,200
informed and unbiased vote that 
won't make a difference. 

355
00:19:01,900 --> 00:19:05,000
And so my argument is don't 
spend your hours doing that. 

356
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:08,700
Spend your hours maybe learning 
to donate to the against malaria

357
00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:10,600
Foundation. 
You spend enough hours and you 

358
00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,200
learn enough to save a human 
life and that's a much better 

359
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:15,200
use of your time, morally 
speaking. 

360
00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:19,200
Then all of the Informing and D 
biasing work that you might do. 

361
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,500
You had mentioned that 
philosophy is about questioning 

362
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:26,400
a lot of assumptions that we 
have. 

363
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,500
Could you give us the biggest 
misconception, people on the 

364
00:19:30,500 --> 00:19:33,600
right have and the biggest 
misconception, people on the 

365
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,000
left have about the world in 
general? 

366
00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:39,000
That's good. 
Okay. 

367
00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:42,100
I don't know, maybe the biggest 
misconception. 

368
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:44,600
So this is obviously, you know, 
broad Strokes here. 

369
00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:48,100
People on the right, you know, I
think maybe their biggest 

370
00:19:48,100 --> 00:19:51,600
mistake is thinking that the 
cosmopolitanism or globalism is 

371
00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,600
bad. 
I think it's very, very good 

372
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,300
open borders, free trade, all of
these sorts of things. 

373
00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:02,700
I think are extremely good, 
their dynamic. 

374
00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:06,200
They lead to sort of more robust
and diverse societies at. 

375
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,300
Yeah, so I think if I could 
persuade the right of one thing,

376
00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:13,600
It's the cosmopolitanism is a 
good thing and should be 

377
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,500
embraced offer. 
The left. 

378
00:20:15,500 --> 00:20:17,500
I would say, can Embrace 
capitalism? 

379
00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:20,400
Capitalism is good in 
particular. 

380
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,300
It's good for the poor. 
Maybe that's that. 

381
00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:24,800
Maybe if I'm narrowing it down 
that that might be what I would 

382
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,900
try to persuade folks on. 
The left of is it capitalism is 

383
00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:32,900
not just good for the Elon 
musk's of the world. 

384
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,800
It's good for the rest of us. 
It's good for people who have 

385
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,500
cheaper products to buy who have
better products to buy. 

386
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:44,800
Why we have more Leisure Time 
and that probably capitalism is 

387
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:49,400
a much more effective way to 
reduce poverty than a lot of the

388
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,900
Regulatory and we distributive 
suggestions that people on the 

389
00:20:52,900 --> 00:21:00,000
left make and how do you know 
that the reduction in poverty or

390
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,800
the increase in standard of 
living exist? 

391
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,700
As a causal result of 
capitalism? 

392
00:21:07,300 --> 00:21:10,200
Yeah, so I think, in particular,
when we're talking about 

393
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,800
something like poverty 
reduction, my favorite sort of 

394
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,400
measure of this is the, the, the
time cost or time price of 

395
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,400
goods. 
So you say, for example, you 

396
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,200
know, what would it how many 
hours would the average American

397
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,700
have to work 100 years ago to 
buy a loaf of bread. 

398
00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:31,000
I don't know what it is. 
I'm making numbers out like 10 

399
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,800
hours or something like that and
now it's like to you know, 20 

400
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,300
minutes or something like that. 
You say well, okay. 

401
00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:40,400
Well Is that what is actually 
led to that reduction in the 

402
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,700
time price of that good and many
other Goods? 

403
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,900
It's like well, it's you know, 
it's the the sort of standard 

404
00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:48,600
story that we know about 
capitalism is that you have 

405
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,000
people competing for your 
business. 

406
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:52,900
They're trying to innovate if 
they can sell a better loaf of 

407
00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:55,800
bread or the lower price. 
They'll get more business. 

408
00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:59,800
And so this incentivizes higher 
quality Goods at lower at lower 

409
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:05,400
prices, and we just see this we 
don't really have an example of 

410
00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:11,800
List societies that have this 
impressive track record of 

411
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,600
poverty reduction in this. 
Maybe this is an additional 

412
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,700
comment that might relate to 
what I would try to persuade the

413
00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:23,200
left of countries like Sweden 
their capitalist countries in 

414
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,300
the sense that they do not have 
Collective ownership of the 

415
00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:28,800
means of production. 
They're not socialist countries 

416
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,600
their capitalist countries with 
a lot of redistribution. 

417
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:34,800
And, you know, we can, we can 
debate the merits of 

418
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,200
redistribution. 
But any country with a high 

419
00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:42,600
material, standard of living is 
going to be a capitalist 

420
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,000
country. 
So where the the ownership of 

421
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:50,100
productive property is is held 
in private hands, so there's not

422
00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:52,000
really a counterexample for 
this. 

423
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,100
It seems like you're not even 
necessarily taking away the 

424
00:22:57,900 --> 00:23:03,400
Socialist identity. 
If you say that you want private

425
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,100
ownership in the means of 
production. 

426
00:23:05,300 --> 00:23:07,800
Because if they say, well, I 
want the workers to own the 

427
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,100
means of production. 
Well, first of all, it's 

428
00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:12,000
assuming entrepreneurs don't do 
any work. 

429
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,800
So that's ridiculous. 
But second of all if you have 

430
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,800
what I think Mesa said one of 
the one of the things to look 

431
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:24,000
for to see if places capitalist 
or socialist is Not there was a 

432
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,500
stock market exchange because 
this means there is a free 

433
00:23:27,500 --> 00:23:32,500
market in capital ownership. 
That's a place where the 

434
00:23:32,500 --> 00:23:36,500
workers. 
So to speak, can enter the 

435
00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:39,500
capitalist Arena and own the 
factors of production. 

436
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,800
Not just the place. 
They work, they could be 

437
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,100
Diversified and own a few 
different places. 

438
00:23:46,100 --> 00:23:49,200
Is this a way that we could 
actually harmonize our interests

439
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,800
with that of the Jimmy doors 
Glenn greenwald's and Aaron maté

440
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,200
as of The world. 
So yeah, so I think that's an 

441
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,000
interesting and interesting 
point. 

442
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,400
I would also say in more 
directly. 

443
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,500
And so we're talking about 
nowzik early on, he had this 

444
00:24:03,500 --> 00:24:06,500
point, which I think is really 
insightful and underappreciated,

445
00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:09,200
which he says look under 
capitalism. 

446
00:24:09,900 --> 00:24:14,400
You can still Finance 
worker-owned Democratic coops, 

447
00:24:14,500 --> 00:24:18,200
if you ones and we have examples
of this, so he and particular 

448
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,200
was talking about, he said, you 
know, why don't you means I use 

449
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,600
some money from their treasury 
to finance. 

450
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,500
These sorts of Enterprises, 
another example of this would 

451
00:24:27,500 --> 00:24:29,100
be. 
I just looked it up recently, 

452
00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:32,000
but I forget what the number is.
But some the the amount of 

453
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,800
funding that the Democratic 
socialists of America have is 

454
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,700
quite a lot of money. 
They have quite a lot of money 

455
00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:40,800
and those it would say, look, 
you could take some of that 

456
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,900
money and fund worker-owned 
Democratic cooperatives. 

457
00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:49,000
If you want to do, there's 
nothing sort of formally 

458
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,100
stopping socialist from doing 
that. 

459
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,800
In a capitalist economy, but we 
don't we don't really see a 

460
00:24:54,808 --> 00:24:56,700
whole lot of that. 
I think one reason why we don't 

461
00:24:56,700 --> 00:24:59,800
see a whole lot of that is just 
because you know, it's not the 

462
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,800
case that everybody or perhaps 
even most people want to work in

463
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,600
a democratically run worker 
Cooperative. 

464
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,300
Maybe they just prefer to work 
for a steady wage and they don't

465
00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:13,400
want to have the risk and 
responsibility of a worker 

466
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:14,600
owner. 
They'd rather have the risk and 

467
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,200
responsibility of a wage earner.
Maybe that's just a preference 

468
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:21,100
that people have be a knows if 
we'll just say there is nothing.

469
00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:24,500
Within capitalism that prevents 
workers from establishing these 

470
00:25:24,500 --> 00:25:26,400
sorts of Enterprises on their 
own. 

471
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,600
But of course, the reverse is 
not true. 

472
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,800
So under social, so, under 
capitalism, you could collect 

473
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,700
devised the means of production 
if you want, but under 

474
00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:39,800
socialism, you cannot privatize,
the means of production. 

475
00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:44,200
And so this is a reason to think
that capitalism is going to end 

476
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,000
up being more respectful of 
people's values and preferences 

477
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:53,600
than socialism will be. 
One of the shortcomings of 

478
00:25:53,900 --> 00:25:56,200
Charity. 
Well, I don't that's unfair 

479
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,000
because it also applies to the 
state. 

480
00:25:58,100 --> 00:26:02,200
But when you think of well, what
people should do is donate to 

481
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,600
charitable causes assume that 
you have, you know, a lot of 

482
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,900
people who don't have a lot of 
Leverage in the labor market, 

483
00:26:08,900 --> 00:26:13,500
but they're in their suffering, 
unfortunately, and you want to 

484
00:26:13,500 --> 00:26:15,600
help them. 
Well, you could engage in 

485
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,200
charitable, practice one of the 
issues that arises as that. 

486
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:26,000
Well, I individually could give 
maybe five thousand dollars and 

487
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,700
that would make a big difference
in my life. 

488
00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:29,900
If I gave five thousand dollars 
away. 

489
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,900
And for all I know it's going to
be used at a cocktail reception 

490
00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:35,800
for even bigger donors. 
So I'm actually not just going 

491
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,800
to donate everyone else has the 
similar feeling. 

492
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,500
It's a big cost for me small 
cost in the aggregate. 

493
00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:46,100
So do you have any ideas on how 
we could almost harmonize this 

494
00:26:46,300 --> 00:26:49,200
individual interest and 
Collective interest? 

495
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,300
When it comes to Donating to 
charity to make it a much more 

496
00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:56,700
attractive option compared to 
the welfare state. 

497
00:26:57,100 --> 00:27:01,400
So is the worry that, you know, 
you'll donate to an organization

498
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:03,500
and it just won't be used very 
effectively. 

499
00:27:03,500 --> 00:27:06,400
It will end up helping any of 
the people that you're intending

500
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,200
to help. 
Is that the concern that you 

501
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,800
have? 
There's that surface level and 

502
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,800
then there's well, what do I get
out of this? 

503
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,800
I give them 5 grand? 
Okay, and then my bank account 

504
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,900
has five thousand dollars less. 
All right. 

505
00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:20,600
Now I'm done. 
So unless I can tweet this out. 

506
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,900
And put it on Facebook and Chris
Freeman says, hey Keith Knight 

507
00:27:23,900 --> 00:27:26,900
did a great thing the other day.
Let's give this guy a round of 

508
00:27:26,908 --> 00:27:29,000
applause. 
Please follow him unless I can 

509
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:30,700
do that. 
It's just not worth much. 

510
00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:32,700
That sounds pretty good though. 
I'll let you said. 

511
00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:35,900
Yeah, I'll retweet you if you if
you do that, which you know, 

512
00:27:35,900 --> 00:27:39,800
that is really a huge benefit I 
think but no seriously. 

513
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:41,100
Yeah. 
So good. 

514
00:27:41,100 --> 00:27:43,500
So a couple of things. 
So just on the first point about

515
00:27:43,500 --> 00:27:46,400
Effectiveness. 
I think this is a reason why you

516
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,600
need to do a little bit of 
homework before you donate to 

517
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,000
make sure that you're actually. 
Really donating to a charity. 

518
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,000
That's effective and there are 
effective Charities. 

519
00:27:54,500 --> 00:27:58,900
I would recommend give well, as 
an organization that just does a

520
00:27:58,900 --> 00:28:01,800
terrific job of evaluating the 
effectiveness of Charities and 

521
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,000
telling you the most efficient 
ones. 

522
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,100
So that's my remark on the first
point as in one. 

523
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:08,100
Yeah. 
I don't know. 

524
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,000
I mean, so you think about 
voting is it? 

525
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,700
What if people vote? 
There's all sorts of reasons why

526
00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:16,700
people vote but they love to get
the sticker. 

527
00:28:17,100 --> 00:28:20,200
The I voted sticker. 
Yes. 

528
00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:25,000
Yeah. 
Okay, you know, the people want 

529
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,100
out want to show off that they 
voted and they, you know, they 

530
00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:32,300
get some sort of, I don't know, 
some sort of psychological 

531
00:28:32,300 --> 00:28:36,200
reward as a result of showing 
off the sticker that, that tells

532
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,400
everyone that they voted. 
And I don't know, maybe maybe we

533
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:44,200
could harness that that sort of 
mindset for the case of Charity.

534
00:28:44,500 --> 00:28:47,300
So I don't know, an example of 
this, might be something like 

535
00:28:47,300 --> 00:28:50,100
these fundraisers that people 
run on Facebook. 

536
00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:51,800
For example, People for their 
birthday. 

537
00:28:52,100 --> 00:28:55,200
They say it's my birthday. 
I'm running a fundraiser. 

538
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,800
Let's say for for the against 
malaria foundation and say, 

539
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,300
okay, you know, somebody decides
to donate some amount to that 

540
00:29:03,300 --> 00:29:07,900
fundraiser and then it actually 
or at least you can allow other 

541
00:29:07,900 --> 00:29:12,200
people on Facebook to see that 
you've donated and, you know, 

542
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,500
I'm sort of a results person. 
I don't mind if your motivation 

543
00:29:16,500 --> 00:29:19,900
and donating is to get the 
publicity as long as you donate.

544
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,500
And So if that's what it takes, 
if it takes your Facebook 

545
00:29:23,500 --> 00:29:26,000
friends, being able to see that 
you donated to the against 

546
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,500
malaria Foundation. 
That's fine with me. 

547
00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:30,900
I'm not going to object as long 
as you donate. 

548
00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:37,300
I want to take is there anything
else I have on this? 

549
00:29:37,300 --> 00:29:42,500
No, okay, so when it comes to 
intentions, sometimes I just 

550
00:29:42,500 --> 00:29:45,700
want to say, you know, when 
we're talking about things like 

551
00:29:46,100 --> 00:29:50,300
well, yes, you know, what does 
turn out that the US has more or

552
00:29:50,300 --> 00:29:54,400
less formed an alliance with 
al-Qaeda in Syria to fight 

553
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,400
Assad, but you know what? 
People support this but they 

554
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,300
don't know what at least, their 
intentions are good. 

555
00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:03,100
I've been hearing that for so 
long that I'm at the Point with 

556
00:30:03,100 --> 00:30:05,700
this and a number of other 
issues where I say screw the 

557
00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:08,500
intentions, I'm done having that
conversation. 

558
00:30:08,900 --> 00:30:12,100
But if I really say that, then 
that means someone who 

559
00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:15,900
accidentally kills someone with 
the car and someone who 

560
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:19,200
intentionally kill someone with 
a car have engaged in the same 

561
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:20,800
action. 
The only difference is the 

562
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,400
intention in their head. 
How do you as a philosopher, 

563
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,800
determine how much weight we can
give someone's intention when 

564
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:32,200
they commit and when they engage
in an activity? 

565
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,200
Yeah, so we might care. 
So, you know to, you know, say 

566
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:40,000
just a little bit about my own 
views as a moral philosopher. 

567
00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:43,200
I'm pretty sympathetic to 
consequentialism which is just 

568
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,100
the idea that it what makes an 
action, right? 

569
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,100
Is a matter of its consequences 
and so, right? 

570
00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:51,800
So you do have this worry, you 
say, well, you could imagine two

571
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:56,100
acts that have the same outcome 
that have the same results. 

572
00:30:56,100 --> 00:30:59,700
But the intention of the actor 
is very different in the two 

573
00:30:59,700 --> 00:31:01,100
cases. 
And so what can you say about 

574
00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:02,600
that? 
I've been one thing you could A 

575
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,500
to sort of take the edge off, 
those cases is to separate the 

576
00:31:06,500 --> 00:31:09,500
way that we evaluate the action 
from the way that we evaluate 

577
00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:14,300
the act or so, you might say in 
the case where so, you know, 

578
00:31:14,300 --> 00:31:18,800
just let's take like an Adam 
smithian case where you have one

579
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,800
person who benefits another as a
result of a free exchange. 

580
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,600
They benefit the other person. 
Not really because they care 

581
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,400
about their well-being but 
because they want their money 

582
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,900
but they say, look I'm going to 
give you this product that you 

583
00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:32,000
want to, you're going to give me
the money that I want, and 

584
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,600
you're going to Be better off 
and we say, yeah, you made them 

585
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,900
better off but it was a kind of 
selfish intentions. 

586
00:31:36,900 --> 00:31:39,200
Yeah. 
Okay, like maybe the action was 

587
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,700
good, but we don't give a talk. 
Maybe we don't get a ton of 

588
00:31:41,708 --> 00:31:43,800
moral credit to that to the 
seller in that case. 

589
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:49,100
Maybe as opposed to somebody who
says, look I really care about 

590
00:31:49,100 --> 00:31:51,600
your well-being. 
I'm not in it for myself. 

591
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,900
I just want to make you better 
off and they benefit you same 

592
00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:57,300
action as the first case but 
different intention. 

593
00:31:57,500 --> 00:32:00,900
Maybe we give the second person 
more moral credit, but what I'm 

594
00:32:00,900 --> 00:32:03,800
inclined to say, is that those 
Actions is doing the actions 

595
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:05,700
themselves. 
It's like an identical benefit 

596
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:07,800
to the same person. 
So those actions are morally 

597
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,700
equivalent, but we might give 
more praise to the second person

598
00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:14,700
to the altruistic person and to 
the first person who's merely 

599
00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:19,700
acting out of self-interest. 
One of the thought experiments 

600
00:32:19,700 --> 00:32:24,700
that is frequently used against 
utilitarians. 

601
00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:31,300
Can go as follows people with 
high IQs, should more or less 

602
00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:35,500
enslave people with low IQs. 
Let's try it and see if it 

603
00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:38,100
works. 
Ten years, then goes by, there's

604
00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:40,400
a lot of bad in the world. 
So we need a program to 

605
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:42,400
restructure the enslavement 
methods. 

606
00:32:42,500 --> 00:32:46,600
Let's try these new ones and see
if they work, and that was then.

607
00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:49,500
And this Is now and things are 
totally different. 

608
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:54,300
So basically you've created an 
unlimited justification for why 

609
00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:58,400
the high IQ people can enslave 
the low IQ and you just keep 

610
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,900
moving the goal post, because 
you can always say, well, their 

611
00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:05,300
shortcomings in the world and 
the smart people need to have 

612
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,000
more leverage over the less 
wise. 

613
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:13,500
What would you as a utilitarian 
say in opposition or support of 

614
00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:16,800
something like this? 
So, the short version is that 

615
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,000
you You know, I would call that 
an abuse of utilitarianism 

616
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,500
rather than an appropriate use. 
So, so there is this worry. 

617
00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:26,700
And I think it's, I think it's a
legitimate where to have is that

618
00:33:26,700 --> 00:33:31,000
if you tell people look, just 
worried about producing the best

619
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:33,200
outcome. 
They're going to use that to 

620
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,000
rationalize a lot of bad stuff. 
I think, I think that's a fair 

621
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,700
worried, but we have to 
distinguish between what 

622
00:33:38,700 --> 00:33:43,700
utilitarianism actually implies 
and how people might abuse it. 

623
00:33:44,700 --> 00:33:48,600
And so the case that you If you 
feel like, that's not good. 

624
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:49,900
That's not going to lead to 
happiness. 

625
00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:52,500
That's not going to lead to 
social well-being and so 

626
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:57,100
utilitarian would oppose it. 
But, you know, utilitarianism 

627
00:33:57,100 --> 00:33:59,800
can be, you know, so he said, 
like, there's lots of really 

628
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,000
terrible things that have been 
done in the name of the greater 

629
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,600
good. 
But utilitarians going to say. 

630
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,600
Yeah, but they didn't actually 
lead to social happiness. 

631
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,900
That was an abuse of the 
principle in any moral theory. 

632
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,800
In principle can be abused and 
so I don't think that and you 

633
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,100
know that It's utilitarianism 
from other views that it could 

634
00:34:19,100 --> 00:34:24,000
be abused for bad purposes. 
And I also think, you know, one 

635
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,600
thing that utilitarian some 
utilitarian say that I'm 

636
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,500
sympathetic to is, you know, for
these sorts of reasons. 

637
00:34:29,500 --> 00:34:32,800
You don't really want people 
thinking like utilitarians in 

638
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,000
their day-to-day life. 
So you say something like look, 

639
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,900
let's just follow some. 
Some really sort of basic simple

640
00:34:38,900 --> 00:34:43,000
rules of morality, you know, you
no respect other people's 

641
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,199
freedom and their property. 
You know be charitable when you 

642
00:34:47,199 --> 00:34:50,500
can and so on and so forth, just
follow those basic rules. 

643
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:55,600
That's probably going to lead to
more societal happiness than 

644
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:57,600
everybody. 
Trying to calculate what will 

645
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:01,800
maximize societal a penis. 
I'm somewhat sympathetic to that

646
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,500
myself. 
So a simple analogy and support 

647
00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:08,900
of that view would be, you know 
the case of something like 

648
00:35:08,900 --> 00:35:12,100
traffic lights. 
So this is a very since we have 

649
00:35:12,100 --> 00:35:15,100
very simple rules for traffic, 
stop at the red light. 

650
00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:17,200
Go with the green light. 
Very, very simple. 

651
00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:21,500
You could imagine an alternate 
system that says, well, when I 

652
00:35:21,500 --> 00:35:24,200
like look around and whenever 
you think it's going to maximize

653
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:28,500
this Idol happiness, run the red
light and say that probably 

654
00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:31,500
paradoxically will not lead to 
the maximization of societal 

655
00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:34,200
happiness. 
If people take upon themselves 

656
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,900
to calculate the wisdom of 
stopping at a red light, every 

657
00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:38,600
time, it's gonna lead to 
accidents is going to be to 

658
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,200
uncertainty. 
It's going to be people going to

659
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:41,600
be use it all these sorts of 
things. 

660
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,400
Just follow the simple rule stop
at the red light. 

661
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,300
Go with the green light and I 
think utilitarianism is going to

662
00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:50,300
tell us something similar about 
moral rules. 

663
00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:53,400
That don't hurt. 
People, respect our property. 

664
00:35:53,700 --> 00:35:55,900
You know, how about when you can
these sorts of things? 

665
00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:58,900
Don't, don't try to, don't get 
out the spreadsheet and the 

666
00:35:58,908 --> 00:36:02,000
calculator and try to figure out
what's going to maximize this 

667
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,700
idle happiest because that has 
all sorts of problems. 

668
00:36:03,700 --> 00:36:05,500
Just follow the basic rules and 
we'll be fine. 

669
00:36:06,700 --> 00:36:10,500
I really enjoyed the book, but 
why it's okay to ignore 

670
00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:13,100
politics. 
It's part of a great series that

671
00:36:13,100 --> 00:36:16,300
Routledge Duds does the why it's
okay Sierra. 

672
00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:19,400
So I totally recommend it, but 
one of my favorite books 

673
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,000
probably ever because I reread 
it going over. 

674
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,000
My notes is unequivocal Justice.
How would you explain your 

675
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:30,000
thesis, or what? 
Your general aim is in 

676
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,600
unequivocal, Justice Link in the
description. 

677
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,700
Well, first of all, thank you 
for the kind words about the 

678
00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:37,900
book. 
Look, I would say the the short 

679
00:36:37,900 --> 00:36:43,000
version is so I kind of start 
with an Insight that public 

680
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,500
Choice. 
Economists have, you know, have 

681
00:36:45,500 --> 00:36:48,800
been promoting for a long time 
which is just you are the same 

682
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,200
person in politics that you are 
elsewhere. 

683
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,800
So, you know, when you're, you 
know, you know shopping for soup

684
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,200
that the at the supermarket 
that's the same person that you 

685
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:00,900
are. 
When you're, you know, shopping 

686
00:37:00,900 --> 00:37:03,600
quote on quote for a senator. 
You're like, you're the same 

687
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:08,500
person and so absent some Really
compelling evidence. 

688
00:37:09,500 --> 00:37:11,600
We should assume that people are
not better. 

689
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,400
They're not sort of wiser or 
more altruistic within the 

690
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,600
political Arena than outside the
political Arena. 

691
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:23,600
And I think if we consistently 
apply this principle, it has 

692
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,100
significant impacts for the 
sorts of politics. 

693
00:37:27,100 --> 00:37:32,600
We might want to see, so 
oftentimes sort of Government 

694
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:37,000
Solutions to problems start. 
From the assumption that people 

695
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,400
are bad or flawed or Limited in 
some way. 

696
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,000
So a simple case that I talk 
about in the book is something 

697
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:47,500
like carbon emissions and here 
this isn't even so much that 

698
00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:50,100
people are bad. 
It's just they face this 

699
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:53,300
Collective action problem. 
So you say look we have this 

700
00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:57,500
problem. 
We have, you know, too much air 

701
00:37:57,500 --> 00:38:01,700
pollution but no individual 
actually has an incentive to 

702
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:04,300
reduce how much they pollute 
because it's not it's not really

703
00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:06,600
going to make a difference. 
You say I could And a few extra 

704
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,500
thousand dollars in the hybrid, 
which will emit less carbon, but

705
00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:12,400
you know, that doesn't really 
make much of a difference to the

706
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,900
overall state of the atmosphere.
So I'm just going to go with the

707
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:16,700
cheaper car even though it 
pollutes more. 

708
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,000
And so everybody's thinking this
way and as a result, we have too

709
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,600
much air pollution. 
And so we say, okay well now 

710
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,500
this is a justification for some
sort of State regulation to 

711
00:38:27,500 --> 00:38:30,800
ensure that this the public good
of clean air is provided that 

712
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:35,700
could take a variety of forms, 
but the problem with this move 

713
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,500
Is that it ignores the way that 
the, the motivational problem 

714
00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:44,700
that gave rise to excessive air.
Pollution is also a problem that

715
00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:46,700
applies to the government 
solution as well. 

716
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:51,200
So you say look voting well, say
for really well-designed 

717
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,300
Environmental Policy is also a 
public goods problem. 

718
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:56,600
So they say look like this kind 
of goes back to what we were 

719
00:38:56,607 --> 00:38:58,700
discussing earlier. 
I could spend a lot of time 

720
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,500
researching different proposals 
from different candidates and 

721
00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:04,300
trying to be unbiased and all 
that sort of stuff and vote for 

722
00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:07,000
the candidate. 
Who's the most Mentally friendly

723
00:39:07,300 --> 00:39:11,300
and do it informed unbiased way.
But of course, you said, well, 

724
00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:13,100
why would I do that? 
Because that's not actually 

725
00:39:13,100 --> 00:39:14,800
going to make a difference in 
the same way that buying a 

726
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,900
hybrid car is not going to make 
a difference. 

727
00:39:18,100 --> 00:39:22,300
So if we consistently apply the 
motivational assumption that 

728
00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:25,200
sort of generated the need for 
the state solution. 

729
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:29,100
We're going to, you know, be a 
little less enthusiastic about 

730
00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:32,400
the the quality of the 
governmental solution itself. 

731
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,300
In the chapter is the state 
special. 

732
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,800
What, what, what are some of the
ways you communicate? 

733
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:45,200
The importance of this specialty
of the state, because people 

734
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,300
often see it yet special. 
It's the one institution we all 

735
00:39:49,300 --> 00:39:52,500
share and we can influence. 
How would you say the state is 

736
00:39:52,500 --> 00:39:57,500
special, you know, will. 
So I would say in probably the 

737
00:39:57,500 --> 00:39:59,900
two most important senses. 
It's not special. 

738
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,800
So it's not special in the sense
that, you know, I don't think 

739
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:08,100
People acting in the, in their 
role, as state actors or 

740
00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:12,900
political actors are in any sort
of significant sense, all that 

741
00:40:12,900 --> 00:40:16,000
different from how they are in 
their other roles. 

742
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,200
And this goes back to this idea 
that you're the same person in 

743
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,200
the supermarket that you are in 
the voting booth. 

744
00:40:20,207 --> 00:40:23,000
So that so economists, sometimes
called is behavioral symmetry 

745
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,400
you behave the same way, inside 
of politics that you do outside 

746
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,400
of politics. 
So in that sense, I don't think 

747
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:29,900
the state is special. 
I do, you know, I don't think 

748
00:40:29,900 --> 00:40:33,400
voters are public officials are 
particularly morally. 

749
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:39,200
Aunt than, you know, people are 
in other domains of life. 

750
00:40:39,500 --> 00:40:41,600
And then another way I so I 
don't really talk about this in 

751
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,300
the, in the book, but I think 
this is something that 

752
00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:48,700
Libertarians tend to agree upon 
that maybe distinguishes them 

753
00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:51,700
from a lot of other thinkers, is
that the state is not special, 

754
00:40:51,700 --> 00:40:55,500
in the sense that the state is 
more or less Bound by the same 

755
00:40:55,500 --> 00:40:58,300
moral principles as non-state 
actors. 

756
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,900
And so, the idea here is 
something like this. 

757
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:07,300
If it is not okay, in principle.
For me to do something to you as

758
00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:10,600
a private citizen. 
It would not be okay for me to 

759
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,100
do that thing to you. 
If I were acting in my capacity 

760
00:41:13,100 --> 00:41:17,500
as a government actor. 
So simply putting a badge on me,

761
00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:21,900
doesn't really change my moral 
status. 

762
00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:25,900
So so private actors and 
government actors are bound by 

763
00:41:25,900 --> 00:41:28,000
the same moral standards. 
I think that's a second way in 

764
00:41:28,008 --> 00:41:30,300
which I would say the state is 
not specialized in most 

765
00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:32,500
Libertarians would say, the 
state is not special other 

766
00:41:32,500 --> 00:41:35,200
people disagree. 
And they think there is a 

767
00:41:35,207 --> 00:41:39,600
difference, but I think this is 
a case where Libertarians tend 

768
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,800
to have very different views 
about the moral specialness of 

769
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:48,700
this state than other people do.
How would you explain John Rawls

770
00:41:48,700 --> 00:41:52,600
has original position? 
This, by the way, Michael humor 

771
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,500
makes the case that John Rawls 
is probably the most influential

772
00:41:56,500 --> 00:42:00,200
philosopher today and that's why
it's so important not just 

773
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,300
picking a person at random here.
This issue with the book is but 

774
00:42:03,300 --> 00:42:05,400
more or less dedicated to 
refuting. 

775
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,800
That's why I like it so much. 
What is John Rawls has original 

776
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:09,900
position? 
Yeah. 

777
00:42:09,900 --> 00:42:12,800
No, he's definitely the most 
influential political 

778
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,600
philosopher in recent memory. 
But right, so the original 

779
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,600
position, so we start thinking 
about this, this idea of the 

780
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,600
original position by asking 
ourselves. 

781
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:27,800
You know, how would we come up 
with, you know, a fair system of

782
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,500
Rights and Liberties and 
distribution of resources and 

783
00:42:31,500 --> 00:42:35,200
things like that. 
And so what option would just be

784
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,300
to sort of, you know, reflect on
what we actually believe. 

785
00:42:38,300 --> 00:42:39,800
So, you know, I'm just, I'm 
sitting here. 

786
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:40,300
I think. 
Okay. 

787
00:42:40,300 --> 00:42:42,900
Well, what would be a just 
distribution of income for 

788
00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:45,900
example, and whatever I come up 
with now, is it? 

789
00:42:46,100 --> 00:42:48,300
Good answer. 
But Rawls notices. 

790
00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:52,500
There's a problem with this 
namely, I might be biased in 

791
00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:55,500
certain ways, and it might not 
even be conscious. 

792
00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:57,600
It might be a form of 
non-conscious bias. 

793
00:42:57,700 --> 00:43:01,900
But just to take a really simple
example, if you're really 

794
00:43:01,900 --> 00:43:05,500
wealthy, you might be biased 
towards principles that benefit 

795
00:43:05,500 --> 00:43:09,200
the wealthy. 
And what we really want is a way

796
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,500
to think about Justice, which is
unbiased, which is fair and 

797
00:43:12,500 --> 00:43:15,800
impartial, and the original 
position enables us to think 

798
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,200
about Justice in this way, the 
basic idea here is imagine what 

799
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,700
sorts of principles of Justice? 
You would choose if you didn't 

800
00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:28,500
really have any information 
about yourself as an individual.

801
00:43:29,300 --> 00:43:32,800
So you don't know what race or 
gender or religion. 

802
00:43:34,100 --> 00:43:35,600
You are. 
You don't know what your income 

803
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:36,700
is. 
You don't know what your 

804
00:43:36,700 --> 00:43:38,000
profession is. 
You don't know what your 

805
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:39,600
education level is. 
You don't know any of this 

806
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,500
stuff. 
And so the question is not 

807
00:43:42,500 --> 00:43:43,900
knowing this. 
What would I choose? 

808
00:43:43,900 --> 00:43:47,100
And the idea is that in the 
original position behind what 

809
00:43:47,100 --> 00:43:50,700
Rawls calls, the veil of 
ignorance, you're forced to 

810
00:43:50,700 --> 00:43:52,800
choose principles that are good 
for everyone. 

811
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:56,700
It wouldn't make sense for you 
to choose biased principles. 

812
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,700
So, for example, maybe your 
deliberating in the original 

813
00:43:59,700 --> 00:44:03,100
position, think, okay. 
Well, what about a law that 

814
00:44:03,100 --> 00:44:05,200
discriminates against a 
particular religion? 

815
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,900
Should I endorse that the answer
is clearly? 

816
00:44:07,900 --> 00:44:10,500
No, you shouldn't endorse it 
because when the valve, 

817
00:44:10,700 --> 00:44:13,600
Ignorance is lifted. 
When you sort of are in the real

818
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,400
world, it could turn out that 
you're a member of that religion

819
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,900
and so would be a rationale for 
you to endorse a principle that 

820
00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:22,600
discriminates against. 
And so, the idea is that the 

821
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:27,000
original position forces us to 
choose principles of justice 

822
00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:31,300
that are fair or unbiased. 
And, you know, the basic 

823
00:44:31,300 --> 00:44:33,500
principles that Rawls then 
people would choose. 

824
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,400
He thinks we would choose the, 
you know, protection of basic 

825
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,000
Liberty, Liberty civil 
liberties, the sorts of stuff 

826
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:42,900
you see in the Bill of Rights. 
Equality of opportunity and what

827
00:44:42,900 --> 00:44:45,600
he calls the difference 
principle, which is basically 

828
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,300
that the just distribution of 
wealth. 

829
00:44:47,300 --> 00:44:50,500
And income is the one that 
maximizes the material 

830
00:44:50,500 --> 00:44:53,300
well-being of the poorest people
in their society. 

831
00:44:53,300 --> 00:44:54,900
In the idea. 
There is basically look. 

832
00:44:54,900 --> 00:44:56,900
If you didn't know, if you were 
going to be really rich a really

833
00:44:56,900 --> 00:45:00,800
poor, it makes sense to sort of 
cushion the blow as much as 

834
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,100
possible. 
If you turn out to be among the 

835
00:45:03,100 --> 00:45:08,200
poorest in your Society. 
Did they not have casinos in the

836
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:11,000
1970s when he was riding? 
Does he not know? 

837
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:13,700
People love taking big risks? 
Sometimes. 

838
00:45:13,700 --> 00:45:16,300
I mean, does he know what cave 
diving is? 

839
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,600
People go to the bottom of caves
and almost suffocate themselves 

840
00:45:19,700 --> 00:45:21,700
just for The Rush. 
What? 

841
00:45:21,700 --> 00:45:24,600
What how did he get away with 
something so ridiculous. 

842
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:28,400
Well, so I mean this is a 
criticism that people make is is

843
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,900
they say look Rose. 
You're being really risk-averse 

844
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:33,600
here. 
So particularly when we're 

845
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,100
talking about the difference 
principle. 

846
00:45:35,700 --> 00:45:39,300
Say what you want to do. 
So, he talks about maximin 

847
00:45:39,300 --> 00:45:41,900
reasoning. 
The it is, you maximize the 

848
00:45:41,900 --> 00:45:44,800
minimum. 
So you make the minimum income 

849
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,500
as high as possible. 
And this is a very low-risk 

850
00:45:48,800 --> 00:45:53,600
Choice as you say basically. 
So it doesn't really matter how 

851
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,700
much you can get if you're if 
you're sort of at the top of the

852
00:45:56,700 --> 00:45:59,900
income distribution or even, 
really, what the average is. 

853
00:46:00,300 --> 00:46:03,600
It just matters that. 
If you turn out to be in sort of

854
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,100
the at the bottom of the 
distribution, You have as much 

855
00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:08,500
as possible and it does look, 
this looks very risk-averse. 

856
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,800
So, I mean, what argument? 
Yeah, I mean, I'm sympathetic to

857
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,600
this objection that it's to 
risk. 

858
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,700
A, I mean, one thing that, you 
know, if you want to meet rolls 

859
00:46:20,700 --> 00:46:24,800
halfway, and I think this is 
essential sensible option, is 

860
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:30,300
you say, look, it makes sense to
want some kind of basic minimum.

861
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,700
So the idea is, you know, we 
want to make sure that nobody 

862
00:46:33,700 --> 00:46:36,300
Falls below. 
You know this, Amount of money 

863
00:46:36,300 --> 00:46:40,300
per year, but then above that, 
you know, maybe we do something 

864
00:46:40,300 --> 00:46:42,700
else. 
Maybe we maximize average income

865
00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:45,100
or something like that. 
That's a different Principle as 

866
00:46:45,107 --> 00:46:48,900
I make the make the lowest 
income as high as possible. 

867
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:50,700
It's just a look. 
There's a threshold. 

868
00:46:50,700 --> 00:46:52,200
We don't want people to fall 
below. 

869
00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:56,200
That makes a lot of sense but 
above that let's make societies 

870
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,500
which as we can. 
Like that strikes me that 

871
00:46:58,500 --> 00:47:02,000
strikes. 
Me is a better principal than 

872
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,300
rawls's but he you know, his 
basic view is look, If you don't

873
00:47:06,300 --> 00:47:08,600
know where you're going to end 
up? 

874
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:12,700
It makes sense to be really 
risk-averse. 

875
00:47:12,900 --> 00:47:15,800
Because this, he's having you 
imagine that you're choosing 

876
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:18,100
this principle, and you got to 
stick to it for the rest of your

877
00:47:18,100 --> 00:47:20,600
life. 
And so, maybe you are the, the, 

878
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,600
you know, the High Roller who 
says, all right, I could either 

879
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,300
be a billionaire or, you know, 
have nothing but I want to take 

880
00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:29,300
this risk. 
Well, says, well look, suppose 

881
00:47:29,300 --> 00:47:32,800
you take the risk and you lose. 
And you end up with nothing. 

882
00:47:32,900 --> 00:47:34,700
Once the veil of ignorance is 
lifted. 

883
00:47:34,900 --> 00:47:38,100
He thinks that's going to be 
extremely difficult for you to 

884
00:47:38,100 --> 00:47:41,800
stick with and live by. 
And so, this is why he thinks it

885
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,200
makes sense to, you know, be 
pretty cautious here, because we

886
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,300
want to make sure that people 
are actually able to live with 

887
00:47:48,300 --> 00:47:50,900
the outcomes that they would 
choose in the original position.

888
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,000
I still don't see how even if 
you want something like that. 

889
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,600
You would not choose a system 
where some people have the right

890
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:01,300
to initiate violence against 
others. 

891
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,900
And others have the obligation 
to obey. 

892
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,200
I mean, it did I I read justice 
as fairness. 

893
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:09,700
I have not read a theory of 
Justice. 

894
00:48:10,300 --> 00:48:12,500
How does Rawls Square this 
circle? 

895
00:48:12,700 --> 00:48:14,900
Where he says the quality is 
really important. 

896
00:48:14,900 --> 00:48:17,500
Also the state has the right to 
make demands. 

897
00:48:17,500 --> 00:48:20,800
Everyone else has the obligation
to obey wall. 

898
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,400
So someone rolls is view, you 
know, the state has the sort of 

899
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,900
has the the permission or the 
right to impose moral 

900
00:48:27,900 --> 00:48:31,700
obligations on people like for 
the sake of a quality. 

901
00:48:31,900 --> 00:48:35,500
As long as they don't infringe 
on people's basic Liberties and 

902
00:48:35,500 --> 00:48:38,900
that so this kind of goes to 
some of the nozik, Rawls 

903
00:48:38,900 --> 00:48:42,200
dispute. 
So Rawls is going to say, look, 

904
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:45,300
you know, the state can't bring 
about a quality by 

905
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,000
redistributing organs, for 
example, to return to that case.

906
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,600
So, like that would be one way 
of rectifying, a particular 

907
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,800
inequality is by redistributing 
organs, but he says, we can't do

908
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,900
that because that's going to 
violate people's basic, right? 

909
00:48:58,900 --> 00:49:01,200
To bodily autonomy. 
So that's ruled out. 

910
00:49:01,900 --> 00:49:04,900
But he did think that's a taxing
wealth and income. 

911
00:49:06,300 --> 00:49:10,300
Was a permissible way of 
realizing a quality because he 

912
00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:13,200
wanted to say look, people don't
have this this basic right to 

913
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,600
their property or at least like 
productive property in the way 

914
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,100
that maybe somebody like knows 
it thinks that they do. 

915
00:49:19,300 --> 00:49:22,700
So even though a lot of ways of 
realizing a quality or going to 

916
00:49:22,700 --> 00:49:25,100
be ruled out in the original 
position. 

917
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:27,800
There will still be permissible 
ways of doing it. 

918
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:31,000
Most notably through things like
regulation and redistribution. 

919
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,500
He doesn't think that that's an 
impermissible infringement on 

920
00:49:34,500 --> 00:49:36,700
people's Liberty. 
Okay. 

921
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,600
So let's give the Catholic 
Church, the unilateral right to 

922
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:41,800
regulate. 
And redistribute since this 

923
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,500
doesn't violate anyone's rights.
I'm sure everyone's going to be 

924
00:49:44,500 --> 00:49:46,000
happy. 
And they'll say, you know what, 

925
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,900
so long as I get to vote for the
pope once every four years, then

926
00:49:49,900 --> 00:49:51,900
everything they do is totally 
okay. 

927
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,300
Well, I would say you can't do 
that in the original position 

928
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:56,800
because it might not be 
Catholic. 

929
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:02,600
Well, I might not be a part of 
the government and in the rasa. 

930
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:05,300
It in the rawlsian world. 
Do you think? 

931
00:50:05,900 --> 00:50:10,900
Obviously, I'm just being 
ridiculous about this, but I 

932
00:50:10,900 --> 00:50:13,500
think it's really important 
because he doesn't seem to have 

933
00:50:14,100 --> 00:50:18,900
too high standards for for, for 
his own government supremacist 

934
00:50:18,900 --> 00:50:21,500
position. 
What I would call is, there. 

935
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,700
Are there any real intellectual 
contributions? 

936
00:50:24,700 --> 00:50:27,500
You think that I am not 
appreciating of people? 

937
00:50:27,500 --> 00:50:31,000
Like we're I mean, I like the 
original position. 

938
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,100
I think it's I think it's a 
really interesting and 

939
00:50:33,100 --> 00:50:37,300
Illuminating thought experiment.
I think that he, you know, with 

940
00:50:37,300 --> 00:50:41,700
a theory of justice and some of 
his work, you know, beyond that.

941
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:47,100
He really revitalized liberalism
in analytic political 

942
00:50:47,100 --> 00:50:49,000
philosophy. 
So, so yeah, I mean, I have 

943
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,100
many, many disagreements with 
Rawls. 

944
00:50:52,900 --> 00:50:55,600
Like you said that, the, the 
first book contains many of 

945
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,200
them, but I do think he, you 
know, he made, A lot of 

946
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,800
interesting contributions and 
let me you know, just say a 

947
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:04,300
little bit to you know, a part 
of my disagreement with Rawls in

948
00:51:04,300 --> 00:51:07,500
this is a you know, what I 
detail to some extent in that in

949
00:51:07,500 --> 00:51:10,000
the first book? 
Unequivocal Justice is he 

950
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:14,300
doesn't take seriously the 
possibility that state power is 

951
00:51:14,300 --> 00:51:19,300
going to be abused because he's 
doing what he so he's very 

952
00:51:19,300 --> 00:51:21,700
explicit about this. 
He's not you no denying that 

953
00:51:21,700 --> 00:51:25,600
he's doing this but he says 
look, you know, I'm doing ideal 

954
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:29,500
Theory which means I'm assuming 
that People are perfectly just 

955
00:51:29,500 --> 00:51:32,000
this is my project. 
My project is figuring out what 

956
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,800
a realistic Utopia would look 
like. 

957
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,100
So this means, you know, we 
can't just assume that people 

958
00:51:37,100 --> 00:51:41,300
can flap their arms and fly. 
That's not realistic. 

959
00:51:41,300 --> 00:51:43,400
But let's assume that people 
like are as good as humanly 

960
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,400
possible. 
There is just as humanly 

961
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:47,800
possible. 
Then what would it look like in 

962
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:49,600
that world? 
What would Justice or what would

963
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,700
what would a state look like in 
that world? 

964
00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:55,800
And now I think one issue with 
that is if you're assuming that 

965
00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,300
people are as good as humanly 
possible, then you And just kind

966
00:51:58,300 --> 00:52:03,400
of dismiss the possibility that 
state power will be abused, or 

967
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:05,500
used improperly for other sorts 
of reasons. 

968
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:10,200
And then, that, that sort of I 
think Stacks the deck against 

969
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,100
something like libertarianism 
from the start. 

970
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:16,400
Because a lot of libertarian 
concerns about state power, just

971
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:21,000
look if it were run by Angels or
even human beings is as good as 

972
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,800
we could, realistically be then 
we'd be maybe friendlier to a 

973
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:27,800
lot of a lot of the stuff that 
walls is to. 

974
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,500
I'm about but you know, the 
state is not run by Angels or 

975
00:52:32,500 --> 00:52:34,400
people as good as they possibly 
could be. 

976
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,600
And so that's a reason to keep 
its power pretty limited. 

977
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,700
And so he doesn't really take 
that sort of objection 

978
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,500
seriously, and I think that's 
not giving a fair shake to a lot

979
00:52:45,500 --> 00:52:50,600
of his critics. 
When it comes to his approach to

980
00:52:50,900 --> 00:52:56,700
Desert, he will say things like 
if you have a lot of money, 

981
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:01,100
well, you just happen to be born
in a society that allocates 

982
00:53:01,100 --> 00:53:04,500
money toward a thing. 
You happen to be good at and 

983
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,300
whether you know, let's say you 
don't work hard and you inherit 

984
00:53:07,300 --> 00:53:08,400
it. 
Well, you didn't earn it. 

985
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,600
Let's say you work hard and earn
it so to speak. 

986
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:16,100
Well, you didn't choose in this 
original position to have these 

987
00:53:16,100 --> 00:53:19,200
skills which give you The 
willingness to work hard. 

988
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:23,800
So therefore, basically you no 
one deserves anything up to and 

989
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:28,000
including I guess life itself. 
How do you as a philosopher 

990
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:32,400
approach moral desert and what 
people can just Lyon? 

991
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,300
And claimed as there's versus 
things. 

992
00:53:34,300 --> 00:53:37,500
They do not have claims on. 
I confess. 

993
00:53:37,500 --> 00:53:41,400
I'm actually sort of sympathetic
to that that argument from 

994
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:45,700
Rawls. 
However, I don't think that this

995
00:53:46,500 --> 00:53:49,700
this has the in Applications 
that he that he thinks it does. 

996
00:53:49,900 --> 00:53:53,600
So let's go back to knows it. 
For example, Noah's Ark is very 

997
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:59,100
explicit that he's not defending
libertarianism or free market 

998
00:53:59,100 --> 00:54:01,100
capitalism on the grounds of 
desert. 

999
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,300
So, he's perfectly willing to 
say that, there could be 

1000
00:54:05,300 --> 00:54:08,400
somebody who inherits a lot of 
money from their parents and 

1001
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,800
they don't deserve it. 
So, maybe maybe they're just a 

1002
00:54:10,808 --> 00:54:13,600
bad person. 
Maybe they were, you know, a 

1003
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,600
bad, a bad kid, like all this 
stuff like they do the whatever 

1004
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:17,400
standard you want. 
They do. 

1005
00:54:17,500 --> 00:54:20,300
Zuri knows it's going to say, 
you could still be entitled to 

1006
00:54:20,300 --> 00:54:23,800
it in virtue of the fact that it
was somebody's money and they 

1007
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,900
voluntarily transferred it to 
you. 

1008
00:54:26,100 --> 00:54:30,100
Now, you might say, there are 
cases of people acquiring money 

1009
00:54:30,100 --> 00:54:32,000
in a market system that aren't 
like that. 

1010
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,200
So they work hard and they 
produce something that people 

1011
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:36,600
value. 
When those people give them 

1012
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:38,500
their money. 
He said, look that person 

1013
00:54:38,500 --> 00:54:41,100
deserves their income like that.
That also makes sense to me. 

1014
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,800
You know, I don't know if we if 
we starting with it, you know, 

1015
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:45,900
the character that they had that
enable them to do this. 

1016
00:54:45,900 --> 00:54:49,000
They didn't really earn that. 
You know, I don't know. 

1017
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:51,600
I, you know, I'm not entirely 
sure what to think about that. 

1018
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:55,200
If it really is the case that 
you know, ultimately speaking. 

1019
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,900
Nobody deserves every nobody 
deserves anything. 

1020
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,900
I think I could be persuaded of 
that perhaps but I think, you 

1021
00:55:01,900 --> 00:55:04,800
know, knows it goes on stronger 
ground where he says look it's 

1022
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,800
not about dessert. 
It's about entitlement, 

1023
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,000
something can be yours. 
Even if he didn't learn it. 

1024
00:55:10,100 --> 00:55:13,200
So he says look you could you 
could it could be your kidney 

1025
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:14,700
due to be entitled to your 
kidney. 

1026
00:55:14,700 --> 00:55:17,400
I can't take your kidney even if
you didn't earn. 

1027
00:55:17,500 --> 00:55:20,100
Our kidney leaving really work 
for your Healthy kidney, but 

1028
00:55:20,100 --> 00:55:21,800
it's still yours. 
You're entitled to it. 

1029
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,700
And so this is kind of knows 
it's way of defending the 

1030
00:55:24,700 --> 00:55:27,800
Marquis like maybe a lot of it's
not deserved but you can still 

1031
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:32,000
be entitled to it. 
Yeah, I think one, one of the 

1032
00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:35,900
things I one of the methods of 
thinking that I learned in 

1033
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:40,500
unequivocal justice as taking 
this principle and honestly 

1034
00:55:40,500 --> 00:55:43,100
saying, well does this apply? 
And then saying well does it 

1035
00:55:43,100 --> 00:55:46,300
also apply to the state? 
Why does Congress have the right

1036
00:55:46,300 --> 00:55:48,700
to make laws? 
They just happen to be elected 

1037
00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:51,500
in an election. 
They happen to win with voters. 

1038
00:55:51,500 --> 00:55:54,400
That happen to live in a 
district that happened to vote 

1039
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:55,800
for them. 
Instead of the other crook. 

1040
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,300
They were running against. 
Oh, well, why should I have any 

1041
00:55:58,300 --> 00:56:01,700
obligation to them? 
So it's like Rawls and Company 

1042
00:56:01,700 --> 00:56:05,500
have the ultimate skepticism 
when it comes to anything, the 

1043
00:56:05,500 --> 00:56:08,000
average person wants to do and 
no skepticism. 

1044
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,100
When it comes to governments, 
which after all their histories 

1045
00:56:12,100 --> 00:56:14,500
of mass murder. 
He doesn't think it's worthy of 

1046
00:56:14,500 --> 00:56:18,900
a questioning whether or not 
they can be Jack to corruption. 

1047
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:21,800
I just think it's one of the 
most dangerous things not 

1048
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,400
because everyone, I know, reads 
Rawls, but because they put 

1049
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,600
these assumptions out there and 
then the average person gets 

1050
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:31,700
them and that's how they sort of
gain this, that this popularity.

1051
00:56:32,100 --> 00:56:36,600
And one thing I mentioned, just 
briefly in the book, but I hope 

1052
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:38,600
it's Illuminating. 
Is it a lot of people would 

1053
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:42,700
recognize how strange Rawls is 
move is if we applied it to the 

1054
00:56:42,700 --> 00:56:45,900
market rather than the state. 
So we say, we'll just imagine 

1055
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:49,000
like, here's how I'm Going to 
defend libertarianism and 

1056
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:51,500
capitalism. 
Assume that consumers are always

1057
00:56:51,500 --> 00:56:55,000
perfectly rational that they're 
perfectly, informed, that they 

1058
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:58,100
always make choices that are 
best for the community as a 

1059
00:56:58,100 --> 00:57:01,100
whole. 
And you know, the same is true 

1060
00:57:01,100 --> 00:57:04,700
of capitalist themselves and say
look what boom I've indicated 

1061
00:57:04,700 --> 00:57:07,100
libertarianism. 
Somebody would roll their eyes 

1062
00:57:07,100 --> 00:57:09,700
and they'll be like, come on 
like know you hat like maybe in 

1063
00:57:09,700 --> 00:57:12,500
this Lake really strange 
philosophical thought experiment

1064
00:57:12,500 --> 00:57:13,600
you have. 
But what does that have to do 

1065
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,200
with the real world? 
And I would say yeah like Point 

1066
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:17,900
well-taken. 
That's that's a Our point, I 

1067
00:57:17,908 --> 00:57:20,700
haven't really done a whole lot 
to vindicate it, but when we 

1068
00:57:20,700 --> 00:57:24,000
apply those assumptions to 
politics, for some reason, 

1069
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:25,600
people are just much more 
except. 

1070
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:27,700
Oh, yeah, I guess voter. 
Like, let's assume that voters 

1071
00:57:27,700 --> 00:57:30,400
are rational. 
Let's assume that they're voting

1072
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,100
for what's best for society. 
Let's assume that politicians 

1073
00:57:33,100 --> 00:57:35,000
are not out for their own 
self-interest. 

1074
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,600
Well, yeah, okay, like in that, 
in that case, I can understand 

1075
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:40,900
why you'd want a lot of, you 
know, government power. 

1076
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:42,800
But what does that really tell 
us about the real world? 

1077
00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,200
And my answer is not much if 
anything. 

1078
00:57:46,300 --> 00:57:48,000
Few more questions for you. 
Dr. Freeman. 

1079
00:57:48,000 --> 00:57:50,200
Thank you so much for being 
generous with your time. 

1080
00:57:50,700 --> 00:57:55,600
People will often say what 
matters is a sense of belonging 

1081
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:59,800
identity and Community, or what 
we should try for is equality of

1082
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,600
outcome or opportunity. 
Why is it that you put economic 

1083
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:07,900
freedom or freedom in general? 
So high on the list of what our 

1084
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:10,800
issues, why we should care about
something. 

1085
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:12,900
Why does freedom really matter? 
Yeah. 

1086
00:58:12,900 --> 00:58:16,200
I mean the short answer is 
because it works in the And some

1087
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:19,700
of, you know, making us better 
off, making us happier 

1088
00:58:20,100 --> 00:58:23,500
healthier, like more prosperous,
more peaceful. 

1089
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:27,300
And in terms of the. 
So, for example, again, you just

1090
00:58:27,300 --> 00:58:32,800
look at countries, where people 
have the rights protected, 

1091
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:36,000
where, you know, their high 
levels of material well-being, 

1092
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:39,900
high levels of subjective, 
well-being, their societies that

1093
00:58:40,500 --> 00:58:44,200
that, you know, are free that 
like by liberal standard liberal

1094
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:48,000
in the sense of like, Like this 
sorts of Liberties that we would

1095
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,300
see on the Bill of Rights and 
things like that. 

1096
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,800
So that's, that's the basic 
answer as to why I think freedom

1097
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:55,700
is so important. 
Because I think it's the most 

1098
00:58:55,700 --> 00:58:59,200
important part of creating a 
society that advances, our 

1099
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,900
well-being. 
And I would also say to with, 

1100
00:59:01,900 --> 00:59:05,700
with a quality. 
A lot of people, I think tend to

1101
00:59:05,700 --> 00:59:10,900
confuse a concern for inequality
with a concern for poverty. 

1102
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:15,100
So I think it would be strange 
to care about inequality as such

1103
00:59:15,100 --> 00:59:18,600
so you have Somebody who has ten
billion dollars and somebody 

1104
00:59:18,600 --> 00:59:21,900
with 1 billion dollars and say, 
oh what a huge inequality but 

1105
00:59:21,900 --> 00:59:25,200
who cares, they're billionaires 
their super-rich. 

1106
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,700
And I think when you present 
that kind of case to most people

1107
00:59:27,700 --> 00:59:29,900
say, yeah, I don't really care 
about that and say, okay. 

1108
00:59:29,900 --> 00:59:32,000
Well, what does that tell you, 
it tells you, you don't really 

1109
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,400
care about the gap between 
people. 

1110
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,200
What you care about is ensuring 
that the people have enough. 

1111
00:59:37,300 --> 00:59:40,500
What you really care about is 
poverty, not in a quality. 

1112
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,500
And so My Views, I don't care if
there are people out there who 

1113
00:59:43,500 --> 00:59:45,700
are making, you know, tens of 
millions of dollars. 

1114
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:47,700
Is like that, you know, that's 
great. 

1115
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,300
That's totally fine. 
What I care about is having a 

1116
00:59:51,308 --> 00:59:55,500
system that, you know, enables 
people to avoid poverty. 

1117
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:59,100
And it turns out that Society, 
like, for example, there's not a

1118
00:59:59,100 --> 01:00:01,700
society that's done, an 
effective job of addressing 

1119
01:00:01,700 --> 01:00:03,800
poverty. 
That doesn't have billionaires. 

1120
01:00:03,900 --> 01:00:07,200
For example, so, prosperous 
societies Prosper. 

1121
01:00:07,500 --> 01:00:10,100
Societies that do a good job of 
taking care of poverty, are 

1122
01:00:10,100 --> 01:00:11,700
societies, that allow 
billionaires. 

1123
01:00:12,300 --> 01:00:14,400
And so this tells us something 
about the capitalist system. 

1124
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:18,000
Like, it's good to allow people.
Accumulate wealth, if it's part 

1125
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:21,200
of a system that ultimately 
redounds to the benefit of 

1126
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,600
people who are in poverty and 
then just two more questions 

1127
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:29,200
about former guests on the show.
What is the most important thing

1128
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:33,000
you learned from or intellectual
contribution of Michael humor? 

1129
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:39,500
Well, I mean, he's great. 
It would be tough to list all of

1130
01:00:39,500 --> 01:00:43,100
them. 
I mean, I think is work and the 

1131
01:00:43,100 --> 01:00:46,200
problem of political Authority 
is just Excellent. 

1132
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,600
So, you know, I would 
wholeheartedly recommend that 

1133
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:51,600
people listening to this, read 
that book. 

1134
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,700
If they haven't already, you 
know, I'm always teaching a 

1135
01:00:55,700 --> 01:00:59,400
bunch of his work, his work on 
gun rights immigration, the drug

1136
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:03,000
war. 
So look up all those as well. 

1137
01:01:03,600 --> 01:01:06,400
And he also actually, I mean, 
yes, I'm just giving you a bunch

1138
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:10,500
of recommendations home. 
But yes, it's great piece and 

1139
01:01:10,500 --> 01:01:14,500
it's also on video why people 
are irrational about politics 

1140
01:01:15,500 --> 01:01:18,200
and That's worth a watch for 
sure. 

1141
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:21,800
It does a really great job of 
explaining, you know, why people

1142
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:24,100
are biased and uninformed about 
politics. 

1143
01:01:24,100 --> 01:01:26,200
And also what lessons to draw 
from this. 

1144
01:01:27,100 --> 01:01:31,000
And finally most important 
contribution of Jason Brennan 

1145
01:01:32,300 --> 01:01:34,500
here again, so much great stuff.
I mean, part of it. 

1146
01:01:34,500 --> 01:01:39,000
I think I mean one of his great 
contributions is kind of I don't

1147
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:43,200
know what you might call a deer 
romanticizing democratic theory.

1148
01:01:43,500 --> 01:01:46,200
So he says like one more time 
when we as Political 

1149
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,200
philosophers are talking about 
democracy. 

1150
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:52,600
Let's, let's talk about how 
democracy works in the real 

1151
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,200
world, with real people with 
their interests and their 

1152
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,800
biases, and all of these sorts 
of things and I think that's 

1153
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:01,400
been a huge contribution. 
But here again, you know, too 

1154
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:03,000
numerous to count, you know, 
he's done. 

1155
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:06,000
Terrific. 
Work on immigration on 

1156
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:09,800
libertarianism. 
Why not capitalism is a terrific

1157
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:11,600
book to where he talks about 
this. 

1158
01:02:11,700 --> 01:02:16,400
I mean, he really produces this 
great Insight which Is and this,

1159
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,000
this is something that, you 
know, I talked about his case 

1160
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:24,600
and unequivocal justice as well.
There's this tendency when 

1161
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:29,300
people are comparing socialism 
to capitalism to compare 

1162
01:02:29,300 --> 01:02:33,900
idealized, Flawless versions of 
socialism to real-world 

1163
01:02:33,900 --> 01:02:38,500
capitalism with all its flaws. 
And he says, this is not a fair 

1164
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:41,200
comparison. 
If you're comparing ideal, 

1165
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:45,000
socialism, to Ideal, capitalism,
then ideal capitalism. 

1166
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:47,400
Looks Any good. 
It looks better than ideal 

1167
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:49,900
socialism. 
If you're comparing real world, 

1168
01:02:49,900 --> 01:02:52,400
socialism to real-world 
capitalism capitalism. 

1169
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:56,800
Still comes out on top. 
And so you just have to be on 

1170
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:00,900
guard against this tendency of 
comparing idealized fictional 

1171
01:03:00,900 --> 01:03:04,200
socialism to realistic 
capitalism. 

1172
01:03:04,500 --> 01:03:06,900
What you want is the Apples to 
Apples comparison. 

1173
01:03:07,100 --> 01:03:09,900
So, again, you know, he's got a 
he's got a ton of contributions 

1174
01:03:09,900 --> 01:03:11,600
that I would recommend checking 
out as well. 

1175
01:03:12,700 --> 01:03:15,200
The books are unequivocal 
Justice. 

1176
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:18,600
And why? 
It's okay to ignore politics. 

1177
01:03:18,700 --> 01:03:20,400
Dr. Freeman. 
Thank you so much for your time,

1178
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:21,800
sir. 
Thanks for having me.