1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,600 Welcome to Keith, and I don't tread on anyone in the 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:05,480 Libertarian Institute. Today I'm joined by Kyle 3 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,200 Anselone, news editor at the Libertarian Institute, to give a 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,560 summary and analysis of Scott Horton's book Provoked, How 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,080 Washington Started the new Cold War with Russia and the 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,120 Catastrophe in Ukraine. Kyle if people. 7 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:22,720 Want to find your work? Where is the best place for 8 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:25,080 people to go? Well, you know, just like the 9 00:00:25,080 --> 00:00:28,120 author of the but Scott Horton, the best place to find almost 10 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:30,800 all my work is the Libertarian Institute. 11 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:32,800 As you said, I'm the news editor. 12 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,800 So every day I'm putting out news stories and also a Daily 13 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,040 News roundup and my show Conflicts of Interest. 14 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,400 And then I also write op eds and viewpoints. 15 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,720 I actually have one up at the institute today. 16 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,480 Also, I have a brand new show, the Kyle Landslone show. 17 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:50,960 So everybody head on over to YouTube, subscribe. 18 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,640 Right now I'm putting out about one episode a week. 19 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:56,400 It's a pretty high production, high quality show. 20 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,960 I I'm really proud of it and that people seem to like it so 21 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,120 far. I just saw your video on Syria. 22 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:06,240 It's on my watch later list. I will get to that by today. 23 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,680 I love Kyle's conflicts of interest show. 24 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,320 So links to those will be in the description. 25 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:16,800 This book provoked is separated into sections based on 26 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,000 presidents of America starting at German reunification, Bush 27 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,720 senior. And then it ends with, well, the 28 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,200 election of President Trump in 2024. 29 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,280 Today we're going to be discussing Bush senior, Bill 30 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,520 Clinton and Bush junior. So starting with Bush junior, 31 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,240 Bush senior, what evidence does Scott provide that NATO made 32 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,280 commitments that the North Atlantic Trade Organization 33 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:46,320 would not move one inch E after German unification? 34 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,920 Yeah. Well, Scott has read all the, 35 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,120 you know, books from the people who were in the government at 36 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,080 that era, at that time, and also all the reporting that was, you 37 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,520 know, said at that time. And what he's able to really go 38 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,280 through and document. And also the national security 39 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,840 archives, which have released some of the documents about the, 40 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,199 you know, private correspondence, what Secretary 41 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:14,120 of State Baker said to Gorbachev or whatever other Soviet 42 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,000 official. And I think, Keith, what is 43 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,880 powerful in like maybe the 1st 10 to 15 pages of this book and, 44 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,160 and this is that section is where they're going through and, 45 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,720 and where Scott is going through and documenting all the 46 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,840 different levels of the promises that were made specifically to 47 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:36,040 not expand NATO eastward of a reunified Germany. 48 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,800 And initially they were even saying that, you know, we want 49 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:42,600 to reunify Germany, but we don't want to expand NATO to East 50 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,720 Germany. They, you know, realize how can 51 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,120 you have a state where half of it's in the alliance and half 52 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:49,280 isn't? And so, you know, ultimately 53 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:54,040 they do make, you know, the whole Germany a member of NATO, 54 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,600 but and it's not just from the American officials, you know. 55 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:02,240 Scott documents, I believe German, British, French 56 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,720 officials all reiterating the Baker the American pledge not to 57 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,240 expand NATO eastward of a reunified Germany. 58 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,720 And there's also what you know is explained in there isn't just 59 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,800 that they were pledging to do it, but why they were pledging 60 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,640 to do it. And it was that the Cold War was 61 00:03:20,640 --> 00:03:24,200 over and that there was no need to immediately provoke the 62 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,080 Russians by starting to absorb the Warsaw pad countries, by 63 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:33,520 starting to absorb the former states of the Soviet Union into 64 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,000 an alliance that is inherently anti Russian. 65 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,880 And so this is, you know, what was laid out early on and yet 66 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:46,280 they they did it anyways. That's the amazing thing that 67 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,680 Scott's sources are not like infowars.com. 68 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,120 His sources are George Kennan. His sources are Pat Buchanan, 69 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:57,920 William Perry. He has Ambassador William Burns. 70 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,520 He has Fiona Hill as his sources. 71 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,040 That's what's just so mind blowing about this book. 72 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,520 And, and, and the elected leaders themselves, this, you 73 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,040 know, Pat Buchanan, of course, is, is making the argument 74 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,160 against NATO expansion. But again, a lot of what's in 75 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,120 like the first dozen pages or so. 76 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,959 And look, I mean, everybody, this is a massive, massive book 77 00:04:20,959 --> 00:04:24,240 here. I'd, I recommend that you buy 2 78 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,800 copies, 1 you can make like a hideaway book, hollow it out and 79 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,200 put whatever goodies you don't want people to find in there. 80 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,400 And then the other copy you read yourself and read, I mean, the 81 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,840 first 10-15 pages, Keith, are absolutely, I mean, just it, 82 00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:41,360 it's so detailed and so meticulous. 83 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,680 And really I, I, I mean, knowing what we know now, if you just 84 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,480 know what's happened from 2022 onward or I guess really, you 85 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:50,640 know, 2014 onward or something like that. 86 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:55,120 If you read the first 10, 10 to to 15 pages, you go, oh, my God, 87 00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:58,680 the Americans knew what expanding NATO to Ukraine would 88 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,320 do, and yet they they did it anyways. 89 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,480 Here we have every American official saying they're not 90 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,280 going to do it. And they're telling their Soviet 91 00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:09,000 counterparts they're not going to do it. 92 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,480 They're telling the Europeans they're not going to do it. 93 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,080 They're telling the Europeans they're not going to do it. 94 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,000 They're telling the Soviets they're not going to do it. 95 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,440 And they're all saying this for very specific reasons, Keith, 96 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,360 that this would be too provocative. 97 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,600 It would start a new Cold War, essentially. 98 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,960 You know, they were saying that they were happy that the Iron 99 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,440 Curtain was gone, right? We no longer have a line drawn 100 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,040 across Europe. And there's, you know, one side 101 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,040 each. And there's a potential war 102 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:35,600 that's going to break out, right? 103 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,080 Europe was going to be the battlefield of a major war if 104 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,560 the US and the Soviet Union or NATO and the Soviet Union ever 105 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,040 went to war. And that was something that was 106 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:49,520 taken off the table when the Soviet Union collapsed. 107 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,480 And the American officials at the time were saying this is a 108 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,560 good thing. Let's not start expanding NATO 109 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,760 because, you know, then Russia's going to get anxious and they're 110 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,960 going to form some new alliance. And that's going to just create 111 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,080 a, a new Iron Curtain somewhere in Europe, right? 112 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,120 It won't be the Elbe River anymore. 113 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,640 It would be, you know, in the Baltic states or something like. 114 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,240 But they, they didn't want that to happen. 115 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,320 And and that's exactly what we ended up doing by expanding NATO 116 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:22,720 more and more eastward. So if you had to pick one piece 117 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:27,160 of evidence that verifies this claim, that the understanding 118 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,400 was that if Germany's allowed to peacefully reunify East and 119 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,720 West, then NATO would not expand eastward. 120 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:38,440 Is it that James Baker, Mikhail Gorbachev meeting is at the 121 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,080 meeting that Baker had with Helmut Kohl, the I believe, 122 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,640 Chancellor of West Germany or Genscher? 123 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,040 If you had to pick one, what would it be? 124 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,480 I mean, I would pick the Gorbachev one, but I, I think 125 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,560 the importance of provoked isn't that, you know, 'cause you could 126 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,600 learn that particular quote from anywhere, but when people, you 127 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:02,960 know, use that quote in an argument, you'll have a Bill 128 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:05,520 Kristol type or someone else try. 129 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:08,720 I had to explain it away and say, oh, well, you know, he was 130 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,720 really saying this and that and, and, and try to come up with all 131 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,120 these counter arguments. And what you have in provoked is 132 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:19,400 the totality of the statements made to Russia that, you know, 133 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,200 it was the number of guarantees at the different levels that 134 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,560 really expressed how much that that you can't take this back. 135 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:30,200 It wasn't, you know, someone off statement that was just floated 136 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,800 out there and Gorbachev happened to take it too seriously. 137 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,760 No, this was something that was re reiterated time and time 138 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,760 again from the Americans, from our allies to our Russian 139 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,680 counterparts. And it would, you know, it was 140 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:47,120 meant to reassure the Russians that we wouldn't go down the 141 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,560 road and while telling the Russians and speaking among 142 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:53,160 ourselves why this is a good idea. 143 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,960 And and again it just it it. It happens anyways. 144 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,560 So what is the problem with NATO expansion? 145 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:05,280 Don't countries join voluntarily this purely defensive alliance? 146 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,000 Yeah, well, I I mean you, you know, at the core of it Keith, 147 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,760 it's an anti Russian alliance. And so from the perspective of 148 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,080 Moscow, even if it you know, it's just defensive, you now 149 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,800 have an alliance as directly set up against you on your very 150 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:24,120 border. You know that be becomes highly 151 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,560 problematic. But of course, Keith is not just 152 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,040 a defensive alliance, it's a massive military machine. 153 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,760 You know, we could look at the wars in Afghanistan or Libya as 154 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,799 examples of, yes, NATO does go to war aggressively and has 155 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,480 really messed up the world in doing so. 156 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,040 I mean that the war in Libya has that massive repercussions, the 157 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,760 latest of which we just saw this weekend with the overthrow 158 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:52,760 Bashar al-Assad and Al Jolani. Keith, al Qaeda, the the guy who 159 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:57,320 founded al Qaeda in Syria, the AL Nusra Front is now the ruler 160 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:03,520 in Damascus, a Saudi jihadist is, is ruling Damascus. 161 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,200 I mean, this is this is Osama bin Laden's dream, and it's a 162 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,920 result of an aggressive war wagering by NATO. 163 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,800 And so, of course, there's a lot of reason that the Russians 164 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:17,640 would be very concerned and skeptical with NATO being that 165 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,720 this label is a defensive alliance when clearly it's 166 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,440 waging offensive wars. But there there's a lot of other 167 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,600 reasons, Keith. Whenever we expand NATO to a new 168 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,080 country, we start having what our first temporary and then 169 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,320 become permanent deployments of military equipment to these 170 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,160 countries, right? You know, now there's 4000 171 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,360 German troops stationed in Lithuania right before the war 172 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:45,760 in Ukraine broke out. American National Guardsmen were 173 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,280 in Ukraine on the front lines of the Ukrainian civil war, 174 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:53,120 training the Ukrainian soldiers on, on how to carry out about 175 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,120 operations. These are American Florida 176 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:58,960 National Guardsmen, right? And so the idea that Russia 177 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,560 would be concerned about NATO expansion is because it comes 178 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:06,800 with so much more than just the status of a defensive alliance, 179 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,720 right? It's not just a declaration that 180 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:14,960 if you attack Lithuania, then we're going to attack you back. 181 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:19,520 It's a a declaration that Lithuania is going to be made an 182 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,480 American military outpost right on Russia's border. 183 00:10:23,680 --> 00:10:27,120 They regularly carry out war games in the Baltic states 184 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,160 within 100 miles or so of the Russian border. 185 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,600 You know, preparing for a ground war with Russia right on the 186 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,640 Russian border. Or maybe keep the most 187 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,360 provocative they have every year and believe these are the 188 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:45,560 steadfast noon NATO war games where they conduct nuclear 189 00:10:45,560 --> 00:10:47,000 drill. So they, you know, take 190 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:51,000 airplanes, right, that could carry nuclear weapons and they 191 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,600 fly them within, I think, 15 miles or whatever the the 192 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,040 airspace line is of the Russian border and turn around to 193 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,640 simulate what it would be like for the nuclear air raids on 194 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,480 Moscow or Russian cities. And so these are huge 195 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,200 provocations. And yet it goes on time and time 196 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,920 and time again. And that's why Russia is so 197 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,440 opposed to NATO expansions, because it's not just some 198 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,160 defensive alliance. It's this massive military 199 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,560 machine that's constantly threatening and poking at 200 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:23,200 Russia's borders. It's amazing because people 201 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:28,120 don't really consider the fact that one a war guarantee to 202 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:34,000 Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia that puts obligations on all of 203 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,440 Americans to potentially get conscripted and pay for a 204 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,320 military conflict. If there's some border dispute 205 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,360 between any of these countries, it's a few politicians putting a 206 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,000 massive obligation on the domestic American population. 207 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:53,840 So the idea that it's voluntary is just like me saying Connor 208 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:57,080 Freeman and I had a discussion, Kyle, you're going to pay for 209 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:58,800 the bill when him and I go out to dinner. 210 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,760 Well, if it's voluntary between a few politicians in America and 211 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,120 a few politicians in Romania, you're still putting massive 212 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,040 obligations on tons of strangers, not to mention the 213 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,920 moral hazard it creates. It basically says to these 214 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,200 people, hey, here's a blank check, you can pick any fight 215 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,560 with any regime you'd like and you have the full force and 216 00:12:20,560 --> 00:12:24,760 backing of the US military. My gosh, think of the moral 217 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,280 hazard that creates. It's like every drunk guy at a 218 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,360 bar being best friends with the big bodybuilder in town. 219 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,480 Well, now you have reason to go around picking fights when you 220 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,880 otherwise had a incentive to be a little more humble and a 221 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,080 engage in a few more cost benefit analysis before picking 222 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,320 any fights. I want to go back to what you 223 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,720 said about Afghanistan. Afghanistan was NATO's first 224 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,440 ever declaration of war. Think it would have been around 225 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,040 48. So for like 50 or so years, 226 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,960 Eisenhower and Truman always thought it was going to be in 227 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,960 Berlin, that that's where the big conflict would take place. 228 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,520 Thankfully, Germany was able to reunify peacefully. 229 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,880 It's like you got this great deal and they still provoke an 230 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:13,200 issue on the European continent. But when it comes to lessons we 231 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,680 can learn from NATO's first ever declaration of war in 232 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:19,040 Afghanistan, what else is there before we move on to Clinton? 233 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,720 Well, Scott has a whole other book for that called Fool's 234 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,000 Errand Keith, where, you know, you could really learn of all 235 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,680 the consequences. But of course we saw during the 236 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:32,160 Biden administration it, it was a 20 plus year failure. 237 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,040 We wasted hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars. 238 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,000 We lost thousands of American lives. 239 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,800 We killed 10s of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands 240 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,920 of Afghans, mostly innocent civilians or just local fighters 241 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,280 who were opposing the American occupation of their country. 242 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,480 And the Taliban are in charge of Kabul now. 243 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,000 So, you know, what was it all for? 244 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,520 And it just it, you know, it kind of on its own face shows 245 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,240 what an absolute failure that the war in Afghanistan was. 246 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,320 Yeah. Well, I at, you know, some point 247 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:11,880 early in my political, you know, research project, I thought that 248 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,440 the Taliban and al Qaeda were more or less the same group. 249 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,040 And by being at war with the Taliban, we are at war with al 250 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,240 Qaeda. Was there any evidence? 251 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,080 Is this, you know, an organization that has a lot of 252 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:26,560 ties? Are these totally separate 253 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,960 groups or did they literally just declare war and start a 254 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,680 regime change operation against a totally irrelevant group? 255 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,480 Yeah, Well, I, I mean, keep the, the al Qaeda presence, the 256 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,600 jihadist presence, the, you know, international Islamic 257 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:45,520 fighting presence in Afghanistan is a legacy of the American 258 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,120 regime change operation, our dirty war against the Soviet 259 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,520 occupation in the the, the communist government of 260 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:56,960 Afghanistan and Kabul. And so, you know that the reason 261 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,720 that there's even these international jihadists in 262 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,240 Afghanistan is largely because the Americans put them there. 263 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:08,360 So anyway, when Osama bin Laden ends up in Afghanistan, he's not 264 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,640 necessarily welcomed by the Taliban in Kabul, but they also 265 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:17,920 say that they're not actively going to kill him before 911. 266 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,680 During the Clinton years, they had given American signals that 267 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:26,320 they are willing to let the US conduct air strikes to kill 268 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:30,520 Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan. You know, they indicated that he 269 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,600 was no longer under their protection, saying to the 270 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,880 Americans that you could you could do what you want to him. 271 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,800 And yet the Americans didn't take the opportunity to kill 272 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:42,520 Osama bin Laden then. So I think that, you know, kind 273 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,880 of shows, Keith, that this wasn't some close relationship 274 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,720 between the Taliban and al Qaeda. 275 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,320 The I think the Al Qaeda presence in in Afghanistan made 276 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,960 the Taliban very uneasy and they rather than be gone. 277 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,960 Certainly. I remember in Fool's Errand, he 278 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,880 cites an article from October 14th of 2001 from the Guardian 279 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,200 where Haji Abdul Kabir, the Deputy Prime Minister of 280 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,240 Afghanistan, member of the Taliban, basically said we'll 281 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,840 hand bin Laden over to any third country if the Americans provide 282 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:17,960 proof. It's like, well, this isn't just 283 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,200 me saying the Taliban are a bunch of good guys. 284 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,160 You can say they're as evil as you want. 285 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,240 They just don't want a war with the Americans. 286 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:27,840 They're domestic imperialists just like every other political 287 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,000 organization. They just didn't have a big 288 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:34,520 incentive to have a war with NATO or the United States. 289 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,960 And seeing that article when I read Fool's Errand was it's so 290 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,760 mind blowing I go they offered to make it so we didn't have to 291 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,880 have this war in the 1st place and Bush went along with the 292 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,520 operation anyways. Just sickening. 293 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,120 Let's move on to Clinton. Wait, I make one more point on 294 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,000 the the HW Bush chapter. And so like the first half of 295 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,960 that chapter I think does it and it goes all the way through the 296 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:00,720 chapter. But the first half is like 297 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:05,560 really just drilling you hard that Washington that our allies 298 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,480 made the promise not to have NATO expansion and the reason 299 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,000 they were making that promise to the Russians. 300 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,440 The second-half of that chapter starts to get into this was all 301 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:19,640 a ruse, right? Like, I guess before reading 302 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:24,440 this book, Keith, kind of my initial thought was that the HW 303 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,000 Bush administration made this promise. 304 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,880 And then it's kind of the dynamic of American politics, 305 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:32,480 right? Where every single president 306 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,680 ratchets, ratchets up the tensions in the situation a 307 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,160 little bit more. So Bush says we're not going to 308 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,320 expand, and then Clinton does it. 309 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,240 But it was clear that even in the Bush HW Bush administration 310 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:48,000 that they were planning to expand NATO and that they knew 311 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,760 that that they were leaning you, you know, leading the the 312 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,480 Soviets on to get them to believe that they were not going 313 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,920 to expand NATO in order to have the conditions in Eastern Europe 314 00:17:59,920 --> 00:18:01,720 so that they could span NATO, right. 315 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,400 Like, they didn't want a new Iron Curtain to come down. 316 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,000 They didn't want the Soviets to get anxious right away that the 317 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,360 situation in Europe was going to one day threaten Russia. 318 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,200 And So what they were telling Moscow was not only that we're 319 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:19,560 not going to expand NATO, but we're going to shift the whole 320 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:22,040 purpose of NATO. It's going to become a political 321 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,680 institution. And we're going to look at other 322 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,440 institutions to dominate the security landscape of of Europe 323 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,880 and that Russia and its former republics, the former Soviet 324 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,000 republics would be integrated into that security partnership. 325 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,560 Now this gets more explicit in the wise guy, I think more 326 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,680 nefarious under the Clinton administration. 327 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:45,160 We could get into that. But I just want to make it very 328 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,200 clear that that I think one of the things I learned in the 1st 329 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,760 chapter of this book, and you know, I'm somebody who has 330 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,560 worked the antiwar.com for five years, Keith. 331 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,520 And I was shocked by this is how explicit the Bush administration 332 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:03,880 was that this really was a ruse, that they were phrasing this in 333 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,600 a way, and that they were setting up a situation so that 334 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,160 they could sell this to the Soviets and at the same time 335 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,440 start plotting in the back rooms their NATO expansion. 336 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,800 That, I think is one of the great contributions that 337 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:23,880 libertarianism has to this, you know, entire discussion where 338 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:27,000 it's very typical to say, well, if you give someone something, 339 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,520 they're always going to want more. 340 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,080 And that almost always applies. Almost everyone is always 341 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,960 looking to increase the amount of resources they have access 342 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,960 to, the amount of social power they have, the amount of money 343 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,400 they have. But it's really only the free 344 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,440 market that has a true check and balance. 345 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,240 And by allowing you to disassociate with bad actors. 346 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,920 Could you imagine if they had to raise money for these wars 347 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:52,000 voluntarily, if they had totally volunteer armies who they could 348 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,360 negotiate with and people had the freedom to disassociate 349 00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:57,440 with? There's no way any of this 350 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:02,440 destruction could be that would be likely to occur if people 351 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,440 could just stop funding it if they don't want it. 352 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:07,840 I mean, people clearly say, look, we basically don't see 353 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,200 any, you know, reason to fight a war. 354 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,320 Over who rules the Donbass region? 355 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,920 Nope, send the ban to rights the long range missiles, says the 356 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,400 Biden administration. It's just so sickening. 357 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,960 So that's why I think libertarianism is so important. 358 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,560 The freedom to disassociate with bad actors, as opposed to states 359 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,120 who coerce you into funding things against your will. 360 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,480 Let's get into yes. Oh, I was just going to add a 361 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,360 lot of times, Keith, they have to actually. 362 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:36,480 It's not only that we had don't have an option. 363 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,240 They openly lied to us and all this is covert. 364 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:44,800 I mean, I guess the, the funding of in support for Ukraine was a 365 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,080 little bit more explicit, but for a long time, I think from 366 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:53,200 like 2013 until 2015, the Obama administration was running, no, 367 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,320 I think it went into the Trump administration, the CIA ground 368 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,640 branch was running an operation where they were bringing 369 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,120 Ukrainians into the United States of America. 370 00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:06,200 And I mean, knowing the number of neo Nazi fighters that are on 371 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,240 the ground in Ukraine, you have to wonder about if some of these 372 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,440 people were like why nationalist extremists were coming to the 373 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:16,440 United States and getting training from the CIA and then 374 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,120 ship that to Ukraine. If you look at you, you know, 375 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:23,240 the initial war in Syria, this was AUS dirty war. 376 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,400 It wasn't something that was open to the public. 377 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:31,240 The CIA was secretly shipping the weapons and from Gaddafi's 378 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,480 looted stockpiles and the jihadists from the Libyan 379 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:39,000 Islamic Fighting Group, the veterans of al Qaeda in Iraq to 380 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:42,400 Syria to carry out another regime change operation there. 381 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,320 And so there, you know, there's just so much of this, Keith, 382 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,880 that isn't even that we, we don't have the ability to object 383 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,360 that we don't even know about it. 384 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:54,360 They, they lied to our faces about it. 385 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,440 And then, then they carry out these essential apps for 386 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,680 treason. And that's what Operation Timber 387 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,600 Sycamore was. They got weapons from Libya, 388 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,920 took them to Turkey and then from Turkey they sent them into 389 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,600 the moderate rebels in Syria. Yeah. 390 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:17,360 OK, let's get on to Clinton. NATO expansion into Czech 391 00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:21,400 Republic, Hungary and Poland. What do we need to know about 392 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:27,080 NATO expansion under Clinton? What was the general response by 393 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,520 Russia at the time? Anything you have on what's 394 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,640 referred to as the fourth round of NATO expansion, because it's 395 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,360 usually started the first round, is back in 1952. 396 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,760 This was the first round of NATO expansion after German 397 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,960 unification and the fall of the Soviet Union. 398 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,840 Yeah. And, and so I think with the 399 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,920 Clinton administration, the, the thing I picked up most from 400 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:54,240 Scott's book, Keith, is just how much that the the Clinton 401 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,920 administration was really looking to deceive the Soviets. 402 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,320 As I said, there was some concern right that there a, a 403 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,640 new Iron Curtain would be drawn that the, that Moscow would get 404 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,880 really concerned if they they were explicit about their plan 405 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,760 to expand NATO all the way up to the Russian border and not 406 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,560 include NATO into the alliance and so. 407 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,720 And not include NATO into the alliance or. 408 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,040 Russia, Russia into the alliance. 409 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:22,040 It's. Excuse me there. 410 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,600 Yeah. According to According to Putin, 411 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:29,080 he did ask both Bill Clinton and Bush Junior for what they 412 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:31,240 thought about Russia joining NATO. 413 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,400 Right. Well, in, in even before that, 414 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,960 in like 1993, in the early Clinton administration, they're 415 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,880 talking to Yeltsin and the Russian government and they're 416 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,840 saying that, you know, we want to have a, a European security 417 00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,560 structure and implying to the Russians that NATO isn't meant 418 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,680 to be an exclusionary alliance, meaning, you know, week, not 419 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,680 that maybe one day that you could join. 420 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,120 And so the, the purpose of all of this, Keith, is so we could 421 00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:02,160 start adding countries like Poland and Hungary into the 422 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,600 alliance without the Russians thinking that this is an anti 423 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,160 Russian build up, which of course was a lie, right? 424 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,120 Because we continue to expand the alliance. 425 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,360 We tried to expand it into Ukraine. 426 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,400 And we make it clear to the Russians eventually that there's 427 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,800 no way that they would ever join the alliance. 428 00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:21,600 And so again, in the Clinton administration, you you have 429 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:26,080 this December where we're not really going to use NATO as a 430 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,080 defensive alliance is more a political stretcher. 431 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,120 It's going to be a European structure. 432 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,760 We're going to have the, you know, these other kind of 433 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,960 defense structures that are going to somewhat supplant NATO, 434 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,480 like the European Security Council, things like this that 435 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,320 were supposed to to at least what the US was saying, kind of 436 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:55,440 take over for NATO in what was the the security of Europe. 437 00:24:55,760 --> 00:25:00,240 And that was all likee that they never intended to do all that. 438 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,960 They just want to expand NATO, keep it as a military alliance 439 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,600 and keep it as an anti Russian military alliance. 440 00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:10,960 But at least, you know, for the 1st 15 years or so after the 441 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,720 Cold War, they didn't want the Russians to believe that this 442 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,120 was explicitly an anti Russian alliance. 443 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:22,040 It's really only, I think after like Bucharest in 2008, where we 444 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:27,800 make it very clear that we're going to expand NATO to Georgia 445 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,160 and Ukraine and have made it clear to Russia that they are 446 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,480 never going to be members of the alliance. 447 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,920 That Russia really understands that this is a alliance meant to 448 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,840 surround Russia. This is a anti Russian alliance 449 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,560 meant to surround Russia. And and that that's what the 450 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,120 Clinton administration is really trying to lie to to Yeltsin and 451 00:25:47,120 --> 00:25:51,720 the Russian leadership about. I want to play Gorbachev's 452 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,400 comments. It is a 2 minute clip. 453 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,640 So this is Gorbachev responding to NATO expansion to Czech 454 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,320 Republic, Hungary and Poland in the late 90s. 455 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,560 Ninety 7 or 99. I believe it's a mistake, it's a 456 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:16,240 bad mistake. And I'm not persuaded by the 457 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,760 assurances that we hear that Russia has nothing to worry 458 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:29,160 about, that that was abruptly suspended or terminated in 1990. 459 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:36,280 You cannot, you may not humiliate a nation, a people and 460 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:42,680 think that it'll have no consequences, no strategy. 461 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:51,520 So my question is, is this a new strategy? 462 00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:02,800 I feel that if I feel that if the same kind of games continue 463 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:08,000 to be played, if one country plays some card against the 464 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,640 other country, then all of those problems, all of those issues 465 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,840 that we've been mentioning today will be very difficult to 466 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:22,520 resolve last night, pre elections, political pluralism, 467 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,080 the problems of concern to you. If not, it'll be more difficult. 468 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,280 Thank you. So going back to the 90s, this 469 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,600 was still the issue. There were so many off ramps, 470 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,800 this was so avoidable. Anything more on NATO expansion 471 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,360 before we get into Bosnia, Kosovo and Chechnya? 472 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,640 I mean, yeah, there's so much more we could say, Keith, but I 473 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,640 think we can move on to Bosnia. Let's move on to Bosnia. 474 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,280 What do we need to know about Bosnia? 475 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:56,040 Well, Keith, I guess the first point to make is that, you know, 476 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,880 one of the surprising things to me is that there were a lot of 477 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,000 off ramps to this, you know, particular little incident here 478 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,840 where during the Bush administration, there was 479 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,160 something called the Lisbon Accords that would have resolved 480 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,360 the situation potentially without any fighting at all. 481 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,320 And it was the Bush administration that came in to 482 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:19,160 our allies in the the those were the Bosnian Muslims and kind of 483 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,920 told them, like, look, you really shouldn't this deal 484 00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:24,840 because maybe we're going to give you some more support. 485 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,240 And then there was something at the end of the Bush 486 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,440 administration that also could have resolved it. 487 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,680 I believe the fighting had began at that point. 488 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,160 And the Clinton administration basically hinted that, you know, 489 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,800 don't take any deal because we'll give you even more 490 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,600 support. And, you know, this just 491 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,280 continues throughout the conflict where we're constantly 492 00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,800 promising one side of this conflict that, you know, don't 493 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,880 take any of these ceasefire deals because you're going to 494 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,440 get something really big from the American side. 495 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,040 And of course, the Americans being the world empire, Keith, 496 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,760 and having this massive military force, they understand that even 497 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,000 if with with a little bit of action, we could have probably 498 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,640 hugely tipped a favor in their side. 499 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,400 So that's that's the one point I want to make is just how 500 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,280 avoidable it all was. The second point I think the 501 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:17,640 more relevant one to today is just how many of the, you know, 502 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:24,080 international jihadist militants post Afghan war post, you know, 503 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,240 kicking the Soviets out of Afghanistan. 504 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,520 They're kind of homeless, right? They, they can't necessarily go 505 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,520 back to their home nations because look, Saudi Arabia 506 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,120 doesn't want to love Osama bin Laden types coming home because 507 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,480 they might have aspirations on overthrowing the king and 508 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,480 installing, you know, a more jihadist style government. 509 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,760 And that's how a lot of you, you know, where Gaddafi was squashed 510 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,160 and had they gone back to Libya, Al Qaeda or Assad? 511 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,800 Had they gone back to serious the Dom, had they gone back to 512 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,640 Iraq? And so these people are 513 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,480 relatively homeless and their only skills, as explained in 514 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,200 Provoked Keith, is basically being a jihadist fighter. 515 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,240 And so now there's a Muslim cause to fight for in Europe. 516 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,680 And the Saudis are, you know, happy to ship them off there. 517 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,480 You know, the king doesn't want them coming home, but he doesn't 518 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,600 mind them waging this international Islamic Jihad 519 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,160 abroad. And so the Saudis are spending 520 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:24,840 hundreds of millions of dollars to ship and equip these jihadist 521 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:31,720 fight Al Qaeda linked fighters in in Bosnia in the mid 1990s. 522 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,520 And of course, you know, this is also important, Keith, because 523 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,960 maybe that that movement kind of ends up getting extinguished. 524 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,040 But rather you have a whole nother generation because of 525 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,960 course, you know, I think a couple of things that I've 526 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,880 learned from watching conflicts over the past 10 years is the 527 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,440 lunatics are the most effective fighters. 528 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,000 And so while it's nice to think you're going to have moderate 529 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:02,240 rebels in Libya and Syria and in Ukraine, you're not the, the 530 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,640 jihadist, the people who are willing to, you know, walk into 531 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,720 a crowd and blow themselves up. You know, the Islamic State 532 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,840 types, you know, the people who are really willing to go on 533 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:17,760 these very likely high death operations that are the ones 534 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,200 that that will do most of the fighting in the dying, who are 535 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:25,120 going to end up with the most power because they're going to 536 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,680 do very well on the battlefield, especially if they you, you 537 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,800 know, at the moments where they have relatively competent 538 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,800 military commanders or ample US support like they did in Libya 539 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,880 or Syria. So, you know, I think this is a 540 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,760 real problem and a real opportunity to have had that 541 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,080 movement essentially be extinguished. 542 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:50,320 But rather you have them going into Bosnia. 543 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:55,840 And I'm sure you know it. It creates legend and, you know, 544 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,240 news stories, right? Like, this is a whole nother 545 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,640 generation. And so you have people who get 546 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,960 interested in it like that that aren't even fighting there or 547 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,840 you meet fighters there. You develop new connections. 548 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,880 And all this, I think, really helps to propel al Qaeda into 549 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,480 its next major action, which is, of course, attacking the United 550 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,720 States on 9/11. Yeah, I always assumed there was 551 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,880 some selection process with every moderate rebel. 552 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:26,040 When you're trying to overthrow 1 regime and get people to, you 553 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,840 know, fill the power vacuum that comes through, I can't imagine 554 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,080 like you just go knocking around doors, people call, see if they 555 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,680 can get a couple weeks off work so they could take time and 556 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,280 overthrow the domestic government. 557 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,800 No, it's only going to be these crazy psychos. 558 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,280 On average. It's not just like there's every 559 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,160 Thomas Jefferson waiting to seize the throne of a former 560 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:47,520 Rock King George, Georgia or anything. 561 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:53,240 So in Bosnia, the NATO alliance was more or less on the side of 562 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,120 these jihadists, these Mujahideen fighters. 563 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,240 Who were they fighting against in Bosnia? 564 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,560 My my understanding is their main opposition was the the 565 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:09,080 Serbian, the Bosnian Serbs. And you know, essentially what 566 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:12,400 you have happened here, Keith, is just not a consistent enough 567 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,320 American policy. And so, you know, this is the 568 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:20,480 breakup of Czechoslovakia. And rather than allowing either 569 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,880 this to break up in a way where it like, fully breaks up and all 570 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,120 these different ethnic groups get their own states, it allows 571 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,600 certain states to break off initially, but then decides to 572 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,360 pump the brakes on it. And so when it starts pumping 573 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:38,880 the brakes, now people are asking, OK, so am I going to be 574 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,440 a minority group in a state that's ruled by a different 575 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,680 ethnicity, a different religion? And these were real questions 576 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,080 and things that people are willing to go to war over. 577 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:53,320 And so, you know, I think really it was the Lisbon agreement that 578 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,560 was squashed in the late Bush administration, the HW Bush 579 00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,920 administration that kind of, you know, provokes the fighting to 580 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,120 break out between the Muslims and, and the Bosnian Serbs. 581 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,520 And, and that's ultimately which leads to I, I, I think there, 582 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,520 you know, the statements of there's ethnic cleansing in 583 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,440 Bosnia and there's a genocide going on end up being a little 584 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,520 bit overstated, particularly by the US in order to sell the war 585 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,360 to the Americans, the American people. 586 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,719 But the same time you, you know, there is unnecessary killing of 587 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,360 civilians here, Keith, there is a lot of war and fighting going 588 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:29,719 on. And unfortunately a lot of 589 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,440 people dying. The US carries out fairly heavy 590 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,920 air strikes as well. When it comes to Kosovo, what 591 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,320 are the main lessons we can learn from the Kosovo section of 592 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,239 Provoked? Stay stay out of these 593 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:47,760 entanglements. I guess is is the main 1 Keith 594 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,040 the lessons right? I mean it's the same lesson that 595 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,920 you learn time and time again. I guess one of the things that 596 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,520 occurred to me as I've been reading provoked so far, Keith, 597 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:02,080 is just how evil the American side has been through all of 598 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,600 this, right? And it's no different between 599 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,320 what happened 30 years ago and them trying to lie to the 600 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,120 Soviets to convince them that, oh, NATO expansion isn't a big 601 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,360 deal to the same thing they're doing today in the Indo Pacific. 602 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,360 Building up all these alliances surrounding China and trying to 603 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,480 convince China that this isn't some kind of anti Beijing 604 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:24,880 policy. It's just it, it's simply 605 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,080 absurd. Are, you know, getting involved 606 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:31,680 in these little wars in Eastern Europe in or in Central Europe 607 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,960 and trying to break up these countries in the way that the 608 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,760 United States want it? It simply doesn't work. 609 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,800 Whenever you try to do this, it first creates violence. 610 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,600 It creates, you know, anti American sentiment in these 611 00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,240 countries. And then ultimately, a lot of 612 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,640 times it goes the exact opposite way that the Americans want, or 613 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,200 at least that the American people want. 614 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,840 Like, I, I think Washington is probably happy and that Gaddafi 615 00:35:54,840 --> 00:36:00,840 no longer rules Libya and that they prefer a weak Libya, like a 616 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,200 failed state where, you know, there's this migration crisis, 617 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,480 hundreds of thousands of people have died trying to get from 618 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,320 Africa to Europe. There's all these, you know, 619 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:13,880 slave trade going on. Just horrific situation in 620 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,280 Libya, right? The situation for the people of 621 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,280 the Libya and neighboring countries is significantly worse 622 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,400 because the US overthrew Moammar Gaddafi, right? 623 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,480 All, all that that's true. I think Washington prefers that 624 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,920 they, I'm sure they would say that they prefer Libya as a 625 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,480 flourishing democracy, but that's not an option. 626 00:36:34,720 --> 00:36:39,480 So if the options are Gaddafi or a failed state, they prefer a 627 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,760 failed state because Gaddafi can stand up to some of the things 628 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,840 that the US is trying to do in the region or Israel is trying 629 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,320 to do in the region in particular. 630 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,600 The same thing with Assad. I mean, it's absolutely too 631 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,200 absurd to say, Keith, you know, would you I prefer Bashar 632 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,400 al-Assad, a somewhat secular dictator who at least allows 633 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,360 Syria's Christian and other minority communities that live 634 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,120 in Syria? Or would you rather have Al 635 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:13,080 Jilani, a man who on 9/11 saw what Osama bin Laden did and was 636 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,240 inspired to fight on the side of the jihadist, not not the 637 00:37:17,240 --> 00:37:19,880 Americans, right? He wasn't like your neighbor who 638 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:24,560 saw 3000 people die on 9/11 and thought, I need a signed up for 639 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,760 the US military to protect America. 640 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,400 He saw that and thought, oh, we actually could fight the 641 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,840 Americans. I'm going to go and join al 642 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,760 Qaeda in Iraq. This is a man who was allied 643 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,800 with al Baghdadi, the, the, the leader of ISIS and the, there's 644 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,560 American pundits today, Keith, telling us that that is 645 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:47,160 preferable, that Jolani is preferable to Bashar al-Assad. 646 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,920 It, it's insanity. But this is this is what these 647 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:57,360 people do, and even prime. Minister of Israel A Hood Barack 648 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,920 is on camera explaining, well, Netanyahu actually has a plan to 649 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,680 start supporting the Muslim faction in Palestine, Hamas, 650 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,920 because this will weaken the Palestinian Liberation 651 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,880 Organization and the Black September fronts, you know, 652 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,600 responsible for the the Munich event in the terrorist operation 653 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:22,360 in the 80s or something. They constantly, I mean, when 654 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,840 you look at the eight years of Bush Junior, the assumption was 655 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,520 we need a big government because we got to be protected from 656 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,960 radical Islam. Forget the entire Cold War. 657 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,120 This is a new justification for why we need a big government, 658 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,640 radical Islam. It's been around since the year 659 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:46,240 600 AD, but 2001 is when we really need to step up the fight 660 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:49,280 against them. OK, even if you believe that, if 661 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,160 you believe that, you. Have to look at all these 662 00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:51,960 counter. Examples. 663 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,200 You have to be able to look at the Bosnia example and Libya. 664 00:38:55,720 --> 00:39:00,240 Not to mention Scott makes the case that the US was basically 665 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,400 the Air Force for Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula from what, 666 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,800 2015 to 2020 while fighting the Houthi regime and Lloyd 667 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,120 Austin's. Like, I got so mad I almost 668 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,240 wrote a letter that that that's the defiant spirit we have among 669 00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:20,120 the political elites today. Anything else on Clinton before 670 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,560 we go to Bush Junior? Yeah. 671 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,320 Again. You know, for anybody who's 672 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,240 reading the book, there's a million things that me and Keith 673 00:39:27,240 --> 00:39:29,960 are leaving out that's in here. However, I think it's going to 674 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,680 take Scott like a month to to actually do the audio book, to 675 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,760 read all these chapters. And so, you know, we can't get 676 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,960 into all of it, but. But there's so much more in 677 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:39,320 there. Yeah. 678 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,560 So so let's talk about the the Bush, the Bush blunders. 679 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,320 Who was George Bush? 'S first phone call when it 680 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,640 comes to major leaders after the attacks on September 11th. 681 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,960 Oh, Vladimir. So I mean, this is, this is so 682 00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,640 foundational to, to my worldview, Keith, because I, you 683 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,360 know, you were, I think just a couple years younger than me, 684 00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:04,680 but I was just old enough to kind of understand what was 685 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,520 happening on 9/11. I was 10 years old at the time. 686 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:12,240 And I remember everybody made a really big deal out of Vladimir 687 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,520 Putin being the 1st. World leader to call Bush after 688 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,920 the attacks and this is what supposed to signal what was 689 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,200 reinforced to me by Arnold Schwarzenegger in Terminator 2 690 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,840 which was that the Americans and the Russians were friends now 691 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,720 and so Russia was going to allow the Americans and I think they 692 00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:34,280 did to use Soviet bases in the you know former Soviet Central 693 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,960 Asian republics I think Uzbekistan and a couple other of 694 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:41,640 these countries they provided bases that allowed Americans to 695 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,280 get it their troops into to Afghanistan. 696 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:48,840 Now I don't know maybe Putin had some grand planned here Keith 697 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,840 where he was going to essentially transport the 698 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,560 Americans to their empire doom in Afghanistan and this was just 699 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,560 a law employed by him but I think in reality it was a real 700 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,400 effort by Putin and the Russians to signal going forward that we 701 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,240 do not want to be enemies with the Americans. 702 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,240 I think at that time, Putin was still very much interested in 703 00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:14,200 integrating Russia into kind of the Western world and the 704 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,040 Western world economy. There was. 705 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,240 There's a lot of benefits to Russia economically. 706 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,720 That's why they built the Nord Stream one and two pipelines and 707 00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:26,040 all these other pipelines that bring energy into Europe because 708 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,760 they wanted to be a part of the European economy and the 709 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,600 European order. And it was really Washington 710 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,360 that insisted that that cannot happen. 711 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:35,960 And so. Yeah. 712 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,200 Yeah. Keith, you know, that is a 713 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,720 really important point to constantly made to the American 714 00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:45,600 people, that Vladimir Putin the, the, the guy that we're now told 715 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,680 is Hitler was the guy who called and helped our president on 716 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,360 America's worst day. Oh. 717 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,760 Yeah, exactly. So when it comes to something 718 00:41:55,760 --> 00:42:00,280 like Nordstrom, I can just imagine explaining this to my 719 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:05,840 great grandfather who witnessed to Mass wars between the Germans 720 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:09,360 and the Russians. The fact that these people have 721 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,680 some sort of significant amount of trade making it in their 722 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,800 interest to not go to war with each other. 723 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,160 This would have been an absolute dream come true. 724 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:23,000 So the fact that there's like no investigation as opposed as to 725 00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,960 what actually happened when it comes to the blowing up of the 726 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,920 Nordstrom pipeline. Basically, I heard it was Putin 727 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,960 for a year and then Seymour Hersh said, well, it was 728 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,800 actually the Florida divers. And then the New York Times 729 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,520 comes out and says, well, it was actually the Ukrainians who was 730 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,920 behind Nordstrom. I got to. 731 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,040 Say of the the major narratives put out is certainly the one put 732 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,280 out by Seymour Hersh makes the most sense. 733 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,000 The one that's put forward by the Western intelligence 734 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:55,040 community is that some Ukrainians on a small yacht were 735 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,360 able to plant these explosives. It just seems like two major of 736 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:02,200 an operation and and Seymour Hersh is able to lay out a lot 737 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,280 more details and explain and how the Americans were able to get 738 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,560 it done. There's at least some evidence, 739 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:11,680 you know, the location of the ships, the timing of the war 740 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,960 games and things like that that do back up Seymour Hersh's 741 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:17,880 story. That being said, it hasn't been 742 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,480 confirmed in a way that I feel comfortable saying that that's 743 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,440 exactly what happened. I and Keith, this is something 744 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,440 that I was wrong about after the Nordstrom pipelines were bombed, 745 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,640 I really didn't think it was the Americans. 746 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:34,240 I it was I think the largest release of methane in the 747 00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:36,400 history of the world are something like, you know, this 748 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,840 is a a major environmental catastrophe, right? 749 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:45,320 This is an act of economic terrorism on on Russia, and the 750 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,720 idea that you would blow up some civilian infrastructure that 751 00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:52,720 brings natural gas into Europe into Russia, one of the core 752 00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:56,080 members of the NATO alliance just seemed too stupid to 753 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,120 believe. That being said, I never thought 754 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,520 the Russians did it either. But at this point, I think the 755 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,680 most compelling case is that the Biden administration was behind 756 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,240 it. So. 757 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:09,720 This is gas going from Russia to Germany, correct? 758 00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:12,280 Yes, yes. OK, I just want to make. 759 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,080 Sure. That that that's what I thought 760 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,160 it was. So briefly as far as NATO 761 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,960 expansion under Bush, we have expansion into Bulgaria, 762 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:24,560 Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia. 763 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,920 This is a whole section in provoked people can check out. 764 00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,840 One thing I wanted to ask you from this section in particular, 765 00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,320 what was the ABM treaty? Yeah. 766 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,800 So this is the. Anti ballistic missile Treaty 767 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,280 and it was essentially a a treaty that was set up to 768 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:44,360 guarantee that the US and the Soviet Union, this was during 769 00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:49,400 the Nitzen administration 1972 wouldn't build anti missile 770 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,240 systems. And the idea, Keith, is that 771 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,960 this ensures mutually insured destruction, right? 772 00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:59,880 That no one side could ever shoot down all the other side's 773 00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:03,520 incoming missiles and therefore would have the ability to carry 774 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,440 out a nuclear first strike on the other side. 775 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,720 So the Bush administration exited from this treaty. 776 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:14,120 I think really that the significance here, Keith, is 777 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:18,360 that the US takes after they exit from this treaty, they go 778 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:22,480 ahead and they start to put their Aegis ashore, anti air 779 00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,080 defense systems or they start to plan to under the Bush 780 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,000 administration in Poland and Romania. 781 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:33,440 Now the reason that this is so provocative is these systems 782 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:39,120 while they shoot could fire the Aegis ashore are the Aegis anti 783 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:44,000 missile systems, which are on the law of American destroyers 784 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,440 and other naval craft. They can also fire Tomahawk 785 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,920 missiles, which the US used to feel the variant of which could 786 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,520 fire a a nuclear weapon. And so we'll put a nuclear 787 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,720 armed, potentially a nuclear armed cruise missile launcher 788 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,360 within range of Moscow And and that was just too much for the 789 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,280 Russians to tolerate. And so I, I think that's the big 790 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,200 part of the US gain now the, and, and I'm sure that was a 791 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:09,880 part of the plan all along, right? 792 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,840 You know, we're, we're going to get out of this treaty and then 793 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,160 we're going to tell the Russians that we're going to build 794 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,960 missile defense systems in Eastern Europe. 795 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,720 But it has nothing to do with Russia. 796 00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:23,120 This isn't about the Russians, It's about the Iranians. 797 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,600 We have to make sure Iran, which doesn't have missiles with the 798 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:31,520 range to hit Europe or Poland or Romania, we have to make sure 799 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:34,760 that they're not going to fire a nuclear weapon which they do not 800 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,600 have at Poland or Romania. So it, it's just completely 801 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,040 absurd. It's absolutely obvious that 802 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,840 this isn't about Iran, it's about Russia. 803 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,600 And then they also tell the Russians, well, look, you know, 804 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,840 these are kind of minor missile defense system. 805 00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:53,120 So it's not like, you know, this could really prevent a nuclear 806 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,400 first strike or Russian nuclear strike on Europe. 807 00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:58,480 And So what are you so nervous about? 808 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,600 Why do you why do you care that, you know, we're we're developing 809 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:03,960 are we're putting these systems into Eastern Europe? 810 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:07,640 And the answer is, is because of the launchers, the MK41 811 00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,000 launchers that can fire the Tomahawk cruise missiles. 812 00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:15,160 And so, yes, that, you know, the US says this is a defensive 813 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,680 system, but it's just like a great the metaphor for the whole 814 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,200 alliance, Keith, right where, you know, we say it's defensive, 815 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,400 but really it's it's an offensive weapon because sealed 816 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,600 in a defensive package. This is from a section. 817 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:34,200 Titled Nyet means Nyet. The memos In February 2008, 818 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,760 Ambassador Burns William Burns, the US ambassador to Russia, 819 00:47:39,240 --> 00:47:42,840 wrote a memo for Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice titled 820 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:47,720 Nyet means Nyet. In the memo Burns wrote during 821 00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:51,720 his annual review of Russia's foreign policy, January 22nd to 822 00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:56,400 23rd, Foreign Minister Lavrov stressed that Russia had to view 823 00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:01,040 continued eastward expansion of NATO, particularly to Ukraine 824 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,960 and Georgia, as a potential military threat. 825 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,600 While Russia might believe statements from the West that 826 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:12,040 NATO was not directed against Russia, when 1 looked at recent 827 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:16,680 military activities in NATO countries, establishment of US 828 00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,560 forward operating locations, etcetera, they had to be 829 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:25,000 evaluated not by stated intentions, but by potential. 830 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:29,000 Lavrov stressed. That maintaining Russia's sphere 831 00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,840 of influence in the neighborhood was anachronistic and 832 00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,200 acknowledged that the US and Europe had legitimate interests 833 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,680 in the region. But, he argued, while countries 834 00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,320 were free to make their own decisions about their security 835 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:47,000 and which political military structures to join, they needed 836 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,920 to keep in mind the impact on their neighbors. 837 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:54,960 During a press briefing January 22nd in response to the question 838 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:59,800 about Ukraine's request for a MAP NATO Membership Action Plan, 839 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,840 the MFA said a radical new expansion of NATO may bring 840 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:08,040 about a serious political military shift that will 841 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,520 inevitably affect the security interests of Russia. 842 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,960 The spokesman went on to stress that Russia was bound with 843 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:21,360 Ukraine by bilateral obligations set forth in the 1997 Treaty on 844 00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,400 Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership Ownership, in which 845 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:29,400 both parties undertook to refrain from participation in or 846 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:34,600 support of any actions capable of prejudicing the security of 847 00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,000 the other side. The spokesman noted that 848 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:41,240 Ukraine's likely integration into NATO would seriously 849 00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:46,120 complicate the many sided Russian Ukrainian relations and 850 00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:49,120 that Russia would have to take appropriate measures. 851 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:54,760 The spokesman added one has the impression that the present 852 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:59,200 Ukrainian leadership regards rapprochement with NATO largely 853 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:03,120 as an alternative to good neighborly ties with the Russian 854 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:06,120 Federation. Ukraine and Georgia's NATO 855 00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,160 aspirations not only touch a raw nerve in Russia, they engender 856 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,880 serious concerns about the consequences for stability in 857 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,840 the region. Not only does Russia perceive 858 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,880 encirclement in efforts to undermine Russia's influence in 859 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:25,160 the region, but it also fears unpredictable and uncontrolled 860 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,480 consequences which would seriously affect Russian 861 00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,560 security interests. Experts tell us that Russia is 862 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:35,520 particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over 863 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:39,600 NATO membership, with much of the ethnic Russian community 864 00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:43,240 against membership, could lead to a major split involving 865 00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:45,400 violence or, at worst, civil war. 866 00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:49,880 In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to 867 00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,240 intervene, a decision Russia does not want to have to face. 868 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,640 For the last three sections of this book, I wanted to invite 869 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,680 Dave Decamp on. Dave Decamp is the news editor 870 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,840 of antiwar.com. He's also the host of Anti War 871 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,840 News with Dave Decamp. Check out the links in the 872 00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:10,520 description to his show on X for that. 873 00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:15,200 So Dave, the next chapter that we're looking at is the Obama 874 00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,120 chapter. What would what was the Maidan 875 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,360 Revolution? Yeah, so. 876 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,120 I mean this was the. Major turning point here for the 877 00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:24,920 current crisis, the current war that we're in. 878 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:29,280 I'm sure you went over the promises for NATO to join 879 00:51:29,720 --> 00:51:33,080 Ukraine, but that kind of, you know, went away for a little 880 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,480 while when Viktor Yanukovych was re elected. 881 00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:41,160 And the Maidan was this overthrow of Yanukovych that was 882 00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,640 totally backed by the US and other Western powers. 883 00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:47,480 And you know, they were completely, it was completely in 884 00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:49,240 your face, completely in Russia's face. 885 00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:52,120 You had these American politicians going over there and 886 00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,480 speaking to the protesters, Victoria Nuland bragging about 887 00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:59,480 all this funding that the US has given Ukraine, essentially 888 00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,480 funding the opposition, funding these Ng OS involved in these 889 00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:04,880 St. protests. And then you had kind of, you 890 00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:07,840 know, the extremist element of it, the the far right. 891 00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:11,520 I know that word has lost its meaning over the years, but when 892 00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:13,920 we're talking about Ukraine, you know, we mean it kind of in the 893 00:52:15,240 --> 00:52:16,240 traditional. Sense that you. 894 00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:20,160 Think of it far right, you know, Nazi sympathizers, the 895 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,200 descendants of the the collaborators with the Nazis 896 00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,320 during World War 2. They were kind of the, the, the, 897 00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,920 the muscle for the overthrow that ended up with Yanukovych 898 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:34,240 fleeing Russia under the threat of violence from these these 899 00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:37,520 gangs on the street. And it was successful. 900 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:41,720 It was a successful US backed overthrow of, of Yanukovych, of 901 00:52:41,720 --> 00:52:44,160 this more Russian friendly leader. 902 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:47,680 What was? Discussed on the phone call 903 00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,120 between. Victoria Nuland and Jeffrey 904 00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:51,880 Pyatt. Why is this important? 905 00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:54,040 Well, this was huge. I. 906 00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,280 Remember when this came? Out, you know, because there was 907 00:52:56,280 --> 00:53:00,520 all this talk about the US being involved in this, in these 908 00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,200 protests and, you know, clearly again, we saw the, the 909 00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,160 politicians speaking and everything, but you didn't 910 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,760 really know exactly the extent. At least I didn't at the time. 911 00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,720 I wasn't as into, and I'm sure Scott did at the time. 912 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,480 But and then this phone call came out and it's Victoria 913 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:19,400 Nuland, who's basically the American point man point woman 914 00:53:19,400 --> 00:53:24,680 on this coup at the time, talking to the US ambassador to 915 00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,760 Ukraine and and discussing who should be in the next government 916 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:30,320 and who they mentioned yachts Anuk. 917 00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:32,960 Yachts is the guy is kind of the famous line from that. 918 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:35,520 Well, F the EU is what everybody, you know, what kind 919 00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:36,960 of what the news media went with. 920 00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,400 But the big story there was they were discussing who should be in 921 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,640 the next Ukrainian government. And then yachts Anuk was the 922 00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:45,680 Prime Minister after the overthrow. 923 00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:50,120 How was did the? Maidan revolution split 924 00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:54,160 Ukrainians in the east and West, so you had. 925 00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,000 You know this more. Pro western government come in 926 00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,000 and western, you know, in the sense of Europe and the US, but 927 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:03,160 also in the sense of western Ukraine. 928 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,200 And they were very hostile to the Russian speakers and the 929 00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:11,080 ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, in Crimea. 930 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:15,800 And you know, the this gets into the the Donbass war and 931 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,200 everything in in Donetsk and Luhansk, the eastern oblast, 932 00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,000 where there was a, a civil war after. 933 00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,800 And, you know, they, they rejected this post coup 934 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,520 government and, and they had some at first, as I understand 935 00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:32,360 it, pretty simple demands that they wanted Russia to continue 936 00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,120 to be an official language. That was something that the post 937 00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,400 coup government wanted to get rid of. 938 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:40,120 They wanted their own control over, you know, who is their 939 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:41,880 governor and, and who was in power. 940 00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,800 And this led to the civil war, which I know we'll get into. 941 00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,400 So that was basically, you know, the split is that you have this 942 00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:54,240 openly hostile government coming into power in Kiev and the 943 00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:58,200 people in the east who are more aligned with Russia didn't like 944 00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:59,120 it. They rejected it. 945 00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,680 What was? The anti terrorist. 946 00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:06,520 Operation that Scott discusses on page 324. 947 00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:10,640 So this is the war, the start. Of the war in the Donbass, when 948 00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:14,080 you had these, you know, they call them separatists, but their 949 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:18,200 original thing that they wanted was more autonomy and again, 950 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,800 just respect for the Russian language. 951 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,120 Just just a big part of this thing. 952 00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,520 And Ukraine launched this so-called anti terrorism 953 00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:30,320 operation. And this was the start of the 954 00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,920 Donbass war that continued from 2014 to the Russian invasion 955 00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:36,480 that started the war we're in now. 956 00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:39,600 And you know, it was a stalemate for a while, but this was 957 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:41,240 unfinished. You know, it was a frozen 958 00:55:41,240 --> 00:55:45,160 conflict and it actually did ramp up before the invasion. 959 00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:48,480 That was a kind of another factor in the Russian invasion. 960 00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,640 But you know, what Scott gets into in the book, which is 961 00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:54,880 really important, which I didn't, you know, remember this 962 00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:59,120 I didn't realize was how the US was completely, you know, 963 00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:04,400 backing this encouraging Ukraine to launch this war instead of, 964 00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,480 you know, meet some of these demands from these Eastern 965 00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,520 Ukrainians. And also we we learned in very 966 00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:15,200 recently as well from the New York Times earlier this year 967 00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:20,440 that the CIA, you know, immediately was involved with 968 00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:23,680 the in this war, built up all these intelligence spaces. 969 00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:25,880 There was another report from the Washington Post that came 970 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,760 out last year that said how. That they got. 971 00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:33,160 To work right away building up Ukraine's intelligence agencies 972 00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:37,080 so they can, you know, commit assassinations behind enemy 973 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:38,360 lines. They can gather all this 974 00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:42,640 intelligence about the Dom Bass forces, which did have some 975 00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,440 support from Russia. You know, as Scott says, 976 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:47,800 deniable special forces were sent over there. 977 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,840 So it was a huge intelligence haul for the US And really, 978 00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:55,200 again, like it, you know, for someone like me who's critical 979 00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:58,520 of US intervention, when those reports came out, like I knew 980 00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:02,440 that the CIA was involved. But the extent it's really 981 00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:04,280 unbelievable. And and, you know, when we talk 982 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,160 about this, you always got to put the shoe on the other foot. 983 00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:10,560 It's like we can't even imagine a similar situation in the US on 984 00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:14,880 the Canadian border or something or on the Mexican border where 985 00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:19,200 you know, the the Russia intelligence is involved in in 986 00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,520 these wars. But anyway, it is this was just 987 00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:27,920 such a big provocation really, the US encouragement and US 988 00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:31,040 involvement in this war. What were the? 989 00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:34,800 Minsk peace deals. The Minsk deals were meant to 990 00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,160 end the. War and give these the the 991 00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,960 autonomous republics give them a bit of autonomy, but they were 992 00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,240 to remain part of Ukraine essentially they were going to 993 00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:50,560 agree to have their own elections and again give them 994 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:55,480 some sort of autonomy. And they were negotiated by they 995 00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:59,600 were brokered by France, Germany and and and Belarus. 996 00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:04,400 It took place in Belarus. And, you know, we've since 997 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,400 learned from basically all sides, Poroshenko, who's the 998 00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:11,040 president at the time, Merkel, who is the German Chancellor at 999 00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:15,320 the time, that their view of those agreements now is that the 1000 00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:19,200 purpose of them was to give Ukraine time to fight this war, 1001 00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,960 basically, essentially saying that they never intended to 1002 00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:25,880 completely fulfill those and end the war. 1003 00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:27,960 They wanted to get ready for a war with Russia. 1004 00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:31,800 Now, that could also be kind of a space saving thing for Merkel 1005 00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:34,720 and these other Western officials involved because they 1006 00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,840 received a lot of criticism, especially in from the Russia 1007 00:58:37,840 --> 00:58:40,720 Hawks in the US who didn't want anything to do with a peace 1008 00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:43,360 deal. But it is important, you know, 1009 00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:46,760 from Russia's perspective, if those deals were fulfilled, this 1010 00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,400 whole thing, and, and, you know, if NATO didn't get so entrenched 1011 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,600 in Ukraine that this whole thing could have been avoided. 1012 00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:55,840 Let's move on. To the Trump. 1013 00:58:55,840 --> 00:59:00,840 Section of the book Why is Russiagate relevant and what 1014 00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:04,960 were the Russiagate claims and were any of them founded, well, 1015 00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,360 Russiagate? I mean, man, there's so much to 1016 00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,920 get into it with Russiagate. And, you know, a big thing is 1017 00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:15,440 that it's very relevant because we don't know if if Trump would 1018 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,360 have been such a Russia hawk if not for Russiagate. 1019 00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,960 There's all these claims that, you know, the big claims were 1020 00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,640 that the Trump campaign colluded with Russia. 1021 00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:28,360 And then the other claim was that, you know, Russian 1022 00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:30,440 interference swayed the election. 1023 00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:35,160 And what they narrowed it down to was Facebook ads was about 1024 00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:38,480 like $100,000 in Facebook ads that some Russian troll farm 1025 00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,800 took out. And then the allegation that 1026 00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,840 Russia was behind the DNC emails that were published by 1027 00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:50,040 WikiLeaks, which never proven, you know, despite even though 1028 00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:53,680 that is out there now, if you ever read any mainstream 1029 00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:56,200 reporting that mentions that they they call it like the 1030 00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:59,960 Russian leak to the DNC. And Scott gets into all this in 1031 00:59:59,960 --> 01:00:01,800 in the book. But again, I think, you know, 1032 01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:06,360 the reason why it's so relevant, again, is because Trump did. 1033 01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,120 Kind of have some. Instinct to be less hawkish on 1034 01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:11,600 Russia. He ended up being very hawkish 1035 01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:15,640 on Russia. But if Russiagate didn't? 1036 01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:16,720 Happen. Would that have been the case? 1037 01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,440 You know, I guess we'll never know that answer, but I, I think 1038 01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:23,160 it played a big role in pushing him to take this harder line 1039 01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:25,440 against Russia to do things that Obama didn't do. 1040 01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:30,200 Sebastian Gorka. Claims that Russia that Trump 1041 01:00:30,200 --> 01:00:33,320 ordered the killing of like 300 Russians in Syria. 1042 01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:36,720 Probably like Wagner associates or something. 1043 01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,360 Do you know anything about this? Is that what you're referring 1044 01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:41,960 to? That's one of the things, yeah, 1045 01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:43,520 I mean that. Was in Syria that's something 1046 01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:45,840 that they like to brag about I mean, I, I haven't seen Trump 1047 01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,240 mention this but a lot of these Trump allies who are more 1048 01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:52,880 hawkish say, you know the number I've heard is 180 and they were 1049 01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:56,920 Wagner mercenaries in Syria. They were just kind of moving 1050 01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,440 toward AUS base and the US attacked them and bombed them 1051 01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,680 and killed a lot of them. And I mean, you know, that's 1052 01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:06,920 basically Russian forces. So yeah, you know, things like 1053 01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,320 that. Also tearing up the nuclear arms 1054 01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:13,680 control treaties and giving. Missiles to. 1055 01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:17,640 Ukraine, you know Trump saying, oh, Obama only sent them pillows 1056 01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:19,240 and blankets for the Donbass war? 1057 01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:22,600 Well. I just remember. 1058 01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:27,040 Russiagate being Hillary Clinton said on the debate stage, 17 1059 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:31,840 Intel agencies, civilian and military have confirmed that 1060 01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:33,920 Russia was the one who hacked my emails. 1061 01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:38,960 I know President Biden said 51 intelligence officials, 5 CIA 1062 01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,400 directors from both parties have confirmed that what he's 1063 01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:45,360 referring to my son's laptop is a Russian plan. 1064 01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:49,400 I know they said that Putin was ordering the assassination of 1065 01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,480 Americans in Afghanistan and paying the Taliban for this. 1066 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:55,920 I mean, this is just, they're just setting the stage for 1067 01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,440 creating the evil guy who it seemed like they wanted a regime 1068 01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:01,320 change war. Do you know anything about them 1069 01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:05,200 wanting a regime change war, or is it just to weaken Russia like 1070 01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:07,520 the Defense Planning Guidance memorandum said? 1071 01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:10,440 Just weaken all competitors so we could beat the dominant 1072 01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:12,040 force? Yeah. 1073 01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:13,880 You mean a regime change? War actually in. 1074 01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,800 Russia in Russia against Putin. Yeah, I. 1075 01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:21,120 Mean, I think that's kind of a. Maybe a dream of some of these 1076 01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:25,360 people, but I don't think they actually have plans for regime 1077 01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:28,040 change. I mean, unless, you know, you 1078 01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:30,920 never know. Some of them probably wish that. 1079 01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:35,640 But you know, I think the purpose is to really just hurt 1080 01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,440 Russia as much as possible, hurt its allies. 1081 01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:43,360 And right now, I mean, today you see Syria, Bashar al-Assad just 1082 01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:45,400 fell. One of the real big reasons why 1083 01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,640 Hillary and these people really wanted to go after Russia was 1084 01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,800 because Russia intervened on Assad's side in that war. 1085 01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:57,080 And Biden's speech that he gave after Assad fell, you know, he's 1086 01:02:57,080 --> 01:02:59,840 celebrating it even though these al Qaeda linked militants are 1087 01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:02,960 the ones who took power. He's saying, oh, this is the 1088 01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:08,320 first time ever that Russia couldn't defend this regime, You 1089 01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:11,480 know, gloating over the fact that you're crediting, crediting 1090 01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:14,760 Assad falling to the US support for Ukraine. 1091 01:03:14,760 --> 01:03:19,880 So it's all connected, you know, they're just, it's all, it's all 1092 01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:23,560 right if al Qaeda wins just so. Long as Putin feels bad to make 1093 01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:26,480 him humiliated, we can give Al Qaeda its own country. 1094 01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:29,680 Scott mentions War Games on page 480. 1095 01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:31,280 What are these? Why are they significant? 1096 01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:34,440 So he. Gets into this. 1097 01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:37,960 Report from Rand, which is a Pentagon funded think tank 1098 01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,640 called Extending Russia. And basically all these ways 1099 01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:43,840 that they could hurt Russia, put Russia under pressure. 1100 01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:47,240 And that includes war games. And one of the things that was 1101 01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:50,640 very provocative that NATO was doing in Ukraine was conducting 1102 01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:52,920 big war games. And whenever you see the press 1103 01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:56,720 releases them, they talk about these things like they're just 1104 01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:59,320 routine business, you know, nothing to worry about here, 1105 01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:01,400 these big war games. And they were actually doing 1106 01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:06,120 bombing runs in the Black Sea, like getting 12 miles off the 1107 01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:10,000 coast of Russia at one point not long before the invasion. 1108 01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:13,800 These are things we covered at antiwar.com, which a lot of 1109 01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:15,560 people might think were insignificant. 1110 01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:17,280 But again, you put the shoe on the other foot. 1111 01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:22,520 If Russia or China is doing big war games in Mexico and South 1112 01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:26,360 America, up in Canada, the US would not be happy about it. 1113 01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:31,760 And essentially, you know, that think tank Rand, the idea was to 1114 01:04:31,760 --> 01:04:34,480 kind of put the pressure on them to to make them nervous. 1115 01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:38,760 And this is definitely a big thing that that led to the 1116 01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:43,440 invasion, just this presence of US and NATO forces actually in 1117 01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:45,240 Ukraine and and in the Black Sea. 1118 01:04:45,240 --> 01:04:49,200 There was a big provocation. In 2021, a British warship 1119 01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,080 sailed 12 miles off the coast of Crimea. 1120 01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,440 And it was a big deal. Russia fired warning shots. 1121 01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:58,000 There is US surveillance planes kind of hovering above. 1122 01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:02,800 You know this was all meant to provoke, as the title of Scott's 1123 01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:06,600 book implies. What was the INF? 1124 01:05:06,840 --> 01:05:11,040 Treaty The INF Treaty was. A really important treaty that 1125 01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:14,720 got rid of intermediate range ballistic missiles that the US 1126 01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:18,320 and the Soviet Union both had deployed in Western and Eastern 1127 01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:19,720 Europe. And these were nuclear tipped 1128 01:05:19,720 --> 01:05:23,640 missiles that, you know, could reach Moscow and in minutes. 1129 01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:27,480 And the INF Treaty was signed in 87 and it got rid of these 1130 01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:29,160 missiles. It totally banned the 1131 01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:35,520 development of these short and intermediate range missiles and 1132 01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:37,760 the Trump administration pulled out of this in 2019. 1133 01:05:37,760 --> 01:05:40,240 And this is one of those examples of Trump being a Russia 1134 01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:42,640 hawk. They claimed Russia was 1135 01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:44,320 violating the treaty with one of its missiles. 1136 01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:47,160 And as far as I understand it, there were some real genuine 1137 01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:49,440 concerns there with this this Russian missile. 1138 01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:53,040 But Russia also had a a legitimate grievance with these 1139 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:56,840 anti ballistic missile systems that the US was installing in 1140 01:05:56,840 --> 01:06:00,120 Poland and Romania because they could fit Tomahawk missiles, 1141 01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:02,360 which are have a range of 1000 miles. 1142 01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,240 So any land based version of the Tomahawk would be banned under 1143 01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:07,600 the treaty. But instead of negotiating 1144 01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:10,400 anything, Trump pulled out of it essentially because they want to 1145 01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,720 deploy these missiles to Asia to encircle China. 1146 01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:15,640 And we're seeing that happen now. 1147 01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:19,160 They sent this new system to the Philippines, but the Biden 1148 01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:20,920 administration recently announced that they're going to 1149 01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:23,640 send these intermediate range missiles to Germany to station 1150 01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:27,840 them in Germany in 2026. And they announced that during 1151 01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:32,760 the recent NATO, NATO summit. And that was the thing from 1152 01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:35,400 reading all the Russian statements that the Russians 1153 01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:38,000 were the most angry about was the this announcement of these 1154 01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:42,520 missiles being sent over there. So the INF treaty that that's a 1155 01:06:42,520 --> 01:06:46,280 big deal that Trump got got rid of that because now this could 1156 01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:47,960 lead to just another missile build up. 1157 01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:52,680 And it's, you know, when the US and Russia are on this path and 1158 01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:55,160 there's barely anybody's talking, it's just it's not a 1159 01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:57,720 good thing. What was the? 1160 01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:01,320 Open Skies Treaty. So the Open Skies Treaty. 1161 01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,960 Was another Cold War era treaty that allowed unarmed 1162 01:07:04,960 --> 01:07:08,080 surveillance flights over each other's territory. 1163 01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:12,120 And these days it's not really necessary because you have 1164 01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:16,120 satellite images, you know, satellites can pick up anything 1165 01:07:16,120 --> 01:07:18,840 that really a plane, surveillance plane can now. 1166 01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:22,920 But again, it was, you know, a trust building thing. 1167 01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:25,680 And another one point I wanted to make with the INF that I 1168 01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:30,160 forgot is that Russia offered over and over again for a kind 1169 01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:33,480 of a unilateral deal with the US for just a moratorium on the 1170 01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:36,680 deployment of INF missiles in Europe because they both 1171 01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:38,360 actually wanted to deploy them in Asia. 1172 01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:44,000 But Open Skies was similar. Trump pulled out of it and 1173 01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:48,720 Russia offered to renew it with Biden and Biden. 1174 01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:52,080 When Trump pulled out of it, Biden really criticized Trump, 1175 01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:54,080 saying it was reckless. But then when the Biden 1176 01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:56,320 administration came in, they said, hey, Russia said, hey, 1177 01:07:56,320 --> 01:07:59,200 let's renew this treaty. It it didn't apply just to the 1178 01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:03,800 US and Russia, all the NATO countries, you know, and other 1179 01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:07,480 Russian allies. But the the Biden team said no. 1180 01:08:08,280 --> 01:08:11,120 So it was just another, you know, example of this just 1181 01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:15,440 crumbling arms control treaties you. 1182 01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:18,319 Mentioned that Trump. Actually gave missiles to 1183 01:08:18,319 --> 01:08:21,800 Ukraine where he said Obama only sent them pillows and blankets. 1184 01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:25,120 Anything else on the Trump administration before we move to 1185 01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:28,040 Biden? Yeah, I mean the Javelins. 1186 01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:31,600 That was a big escalation. Again, like Obama, even though 1187 01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:34,800 he backed this coup against Ukraine and, and they supported 1188 01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,800 and they set up all this Intel and eastern Ukraine and they 1189 01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:40,640 supported the war and encouraged them to to fight it. 1190 01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:45,080 He wouldn't, you know, go take this step of actually sending 1191 01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:47,680 them what's become known as lethal aid is what they call it 1192 01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:48,880 because they gave a military aid. 1193 01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:52,960 They gave him some vehicles and other stuff, but they wouldn't 1194 01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:57,040 send the missiles. So Trump came in and he sent the 1195 01:08:57,040 --> 01:08:58,920 missiles. He signed off on the first one 1196 01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:02,840 in at the end of 2017. And it went over there in 2018, 1197 01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:05,040 the first shipment. So that was a big escalation. 1198 01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:09,000 And he was encouraged by his, you know, hawkish allies like 1199 01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:11,920 Lindsey Graham. There's a famous video of 1200 01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:14,560 Lindsey Graham and John McCain talking to Ukrainian soldiers in 1201 01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:18,960 2016, in December, right before the new year, saying 2017 is 1202 01:09:18,960 --> 01:09:21,560 going to be the year of offense. We're going to go back to 1203 01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:24,160 Washington, and this is right before Trump's inaugurated. 1204 01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:27,000 And we're going to tell them why you need these weapons. 1205 01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:29,120 We're going to get you what you need. 1206 01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:32,160 And that's who Trump listened to when he took that step. 1207 01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:34,720 We're going to make the case against. 1208 01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:36,640 Russia. That's what he said when he's 1209 01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:39,000 going to go back to Washington. Sickening. 1210 01:09:39,560 --> 01:09:43,800 So in the Joe Biden chapter, I want to give you as much leeway 1211 01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:46,319 on this one just because there's so much to tackle. 1212 01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:50,439 Tucker Carlson's thesis is roughly, Russia said Ukraine 1213 01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:54,440 into NATO is a red line. Kamala Harris spoke at a NATO 1214 01:09:54,440 --> 01:09:56,600 summit, saying Ukraine will join NATO. 1215 01:09:56,840 --> 01:09:59,240 Putin finally invades days after. 1216 01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:02,840 Considering this had been a civil war going on for eight 1217 01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:07,040 years or so at the time, do you agree with this thesis that it 1218 01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:10,800 was as a causal result of NATO expansion and because of what 1219 01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:12,400 Kamala Harris said at the NATO summit? 1220 01:10:13,200 --> 01:10:16,720 Yeah, I mean, I agree. That it was NATO expansion. 1221 01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:19,120 It was very clear that that's what this was about. 1222 01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:23,920 And Kamala Harris's comments could have been the thing that 1223 01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:26,280 finally made him go ahead with it. 1224 01:10:26,280 --> 01:10:28,520 But there were other things happening at the time. 1225 01:10:28,840 --> 01:10:32,960 Again, in the Donbass. The war was really ramping up. 1226 01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:34,680 The attacks were really ramping up. 1227 01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:40,000 And there was, you know, there was negotiations for months 1228 01:10:40,000 --> 01:10:42,480 between the US and Russia before the actual invasion. 1229 01:10:43,040 --> 01:10:47,080 And the, and Russia gave them a list of security guarantees. 1230 01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:50,560 And the big one was NATO. They wanted to guarantee that 1231 01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:54,920 Ukraine would not join NATO. And Biden even said publicly in 1232 01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:57,640 2021, like, oh, you know, we'll, we'll be able to work that out. 1233 01:10:57,640 --> 01:11:00,240 Ukraine's not joining NATO anytime soon, saying they're too 1234 01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:04,040 corrupt, which is funny to hear Biden say that with his history 1235 01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:08,720 in the country, you know, and also, you know, he says that 1236 01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:10,640 they're too corrupt to join NATO, but they're not too 1237 01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:13,800 corrupt to send them billions and billions, 10s of billions of 1238 01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:17,760 dollars in weapons and direct financial aid. 1239 01:11:18,160 --> 01:11:22,080 But anyway, so they were negotiating and, and the US sent 1240 01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:25,120 back another long detail thing. And the only thing that they 1241 01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:28,640 were really willing to negotiate was missiles in Europe. 1242 01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:33,440 But they did not address this issue of NATO expansion. 1243 01:11:33,440 --> 01:11:35,280 They just wrote it off. They blew it off. 1244 01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:38,120 And there was a State Department official, I meant to double 1245 01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:41,600 check his name before we did this, but he did an interview 1246 01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:45,320 with the War on the Rocks and he was asked. 1247 01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:48,040 Did you guys you know? Negotiate, take this seriously, 1248 01:11:48,040 --> 01:11:51,680 this this issue of NATO, of giving Russia a guarantee. 1249 01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:53,880 And he said no, basically, Nope, we can. 1250 01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:55,840 We didn't even engage with that at all. 1251 01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:57,440 And again, that was the main thing. 1252 01:11:57,440 --> 01:12:01,520 And now we saw there were negotiations. 1253 01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:03,600 And really what I think should be the biggest scandal of the 1254 01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:07,120 Biden administration is discouraging, you know, 1255 01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:09,960 sabotaging the peace talks between Russia and Ukraine in 1256 01:12:09,960 --> 01:12:12,080 the beginning of the war because even Zelensky was saying that 1257 01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:15,360 they don't need NATO. And Ukrainian officials have 1258 01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:18,720 said since that Russia's main demand in those negotiations was 1259 01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:21,240 neutrality. All the other stuff was direct, 1260 01:12:21,240 --> 01:12:25,920 you know, about de nazification. That was all kind of minor 1261 01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:27,760 compared to neutrality was what they wanted. 1262 01:12:27,760 --> 01:12:29,680 They were willing to pull out of all the territory that they 1263 01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:33,880 captured at that point. But, you know, the US just 1264 01:12:33,880 --> 01:12:36,320 wouldn't. Biden wouldn't give them 1265 01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:39,240 anything on on that, even though, you know, he made it 1266 01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:41,640 clear that he could have, you know, in his kind of off the 1267 01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:45,360 cuff comments to the media. You. 1268 01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:49,120 Had a great post. On X, about how, you know, if 1269 01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:53,200 there's a nuclear exchange and millions of people die, at least 1270 01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:55,920 we will have fought the fight of who gets to rule. 1271 01:12:55,920 --> 01:12:58,160 Donniston, Luhansk, It was something like that. 1272 01:12:58,160 --> 01:13:01,840 But it was so brilliant that it's like, do you realize what? 1273 01:13:01,840 --> 01:13:07,280 This is over, actually. So when it comes to what Putin's 1274 01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:11,920 public justification was for invading, on page 516 to 519, 1275 01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:14,920 Scott goes over this. What is this war really over 1276 01:13:16,560 --> 01:13:17,040 again? It's. 1277 01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:21,680 It's over. NATO's presence in Ukraine, it's 1278 01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:27,760 over bringing this alliance to Russia's border and wanting to, 1279 01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:31,760 you know, he mentions in the, the, the what Scott covers of 1280 01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:35,200 Putin's justifications of, you know, talking about all of the, 1281 01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:37,640 the war games and the, the troops being there. 1282 01:13:37,640 --> 01:13:42,640 And it's, you know, it's about the US not letting Russia have 1283 01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:48,680 this small sphere of influence in Eastern Europe, in Western 1284 01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:53,160 Russia. And that's, you know, as Scott 1285 01:13:53,160 --> 01:13:54,840 makes this case. I mean, that's what this is 1286 01:13:54,840 --> 01:13:58,600 about about. And all the people, Ukrainians 1287 01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:01,920 and you know, have their own reasons to fight, I'm sure. 1288 01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:05,640 But they got caught in between two superpowers and and they've 1289 01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:12,960 paid the price, unfortunately. As far as deciding who rules 1290 01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:17,360 over this Donbass region in eastern Ukraine, isn't that also 1291 01:14:17,440 --> 01:14:20,040 relevant? Whether those people answer to 1292 01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:24,320 Kiev or they answer to Moscow, isn't that a significant factor 1293 01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:28,000 in deciding which territory is going to answer to which regime? 1294 01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:30,440 Yeah, well, I mean that is. What? 1295 01:14:30,440 --> 01:14:33,960 What the actual fighting is about now, it is that it's about 1296 01:14:33,960 --> 01:14:37,520 these territories and also Kherson and Zaparosia, which 1297 01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:40,840 Russia controls some of them, and Putin saying, you know, for 1298 01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:44,960 him to make peace, Ukraine has to withdraw from the territory 1299 01:14:44,960 --> 01:14:47,560 that it controls in those regions and those oblasts. 1300 01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:50,560 And that is what is going to happen. 1301 01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:52,640 You know, they're going to negotiate some kind of deal 1302 01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:57,920 eventually over who rules those territories, who who they answer 1303 01:14:57,920 --> 01:15:01,560 to Moscow or Kiev. And right now, Moscow has the 1304 01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:04,080 upper hand, has time on its side. 1305 01:15:05,240 --> 01:15:07,240 So I don't think they're going to be quick to, you know, if 1306 01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:10,840 Trump comes in and and like he promises, works to end the war, 1307 01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:14,040 Russia is not just. Going to accept any old. 1308 01:15:14,160 --> 01:15:17,120 Deal, you know, I, I, I think they have the upper hand here 1309 01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:19,680 and I think it probably it's going to end with Russia 1310 01:15:19,680 --> 01:15:22,920 controlling those territories. Maybe not the whole thing, not 1311 01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:27,640 the whole oblast, but whatever they control now, Dave Dekamp 1312 01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:28,600 is. The news. 1313 01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:33,120 Editor@antiwar.com. He's also the host of Anti War 1314 01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:37,080 News with Dave Dekamp on X. Today's book is Provoked, How 1315 01:15:37,080 --> 01:15:39,880 Washington started the new Cold War with Russia and the 1316 01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:42,640 Catastrophe in Ukraine by Scott Horton. 1317 01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:45,360 Dave Dekamp, thank you so much for your time, brother. 1318 01:15:45,960 --> 01:15:46,400 Thanks, Keith.