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Welcome to Keith's night. 
Don't tread on anyone in the 

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libertarian Institute today. 
I am joined by Christopher J 

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coin. 
He is a economics. 

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Professor at George Mason 
University. 

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He's the author of the upcoming 
book in search of monsters to 

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destroy. 
He also co-authored 

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manufacturing militarism US 
Government propaganda in the war

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on terror. 
We're going to be talking about 

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the domestic costs of War today.
Dr. Cohen thank you. 

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So much for your time. 
Thank you for having me back 

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Keith. 
It's great to talk to you. 

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One of the great propaganda 
methods is to discuss, something

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only with the potential benefits
in mind. 

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Should we Liberate the sand? 
So country, should we defend 

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Taiwan, but the costs or the 
downsides, both in number of 

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lives and the amount of money is
rarely discussed. 

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Can you walk us through how we 
can measure the domestic cost of

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war? 
The cost of War to the Open 

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people when the US military 
intervenes anywhere. 

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Yeah. 
And so this is a great question 

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and important one because as you
point out correctly, rarely is 

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it discussed? 
And, and so, let's step back for

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a moment, the notion of cost the
way an economist think about it.

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The way, the way most people 
would think about the extent, 

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they do is monetary outlays. 
So your expenditures we spend x 

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amount and even there, the 
discussions related to war. 

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Typically terrible, very rarely 
do people even talk about the 

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monetary outlays and if they do,
they severely under State them. 

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I mean, let's not forget that 
members of the Bush 

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Administration and George w--. 
Bush himself were saying that o 

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Iraq will pay for itself in the 
oil will pay for it and it will 

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be greeted as liberators and it 
will be basically Costless to 

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the American population 
trillions of dollars later. 

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Not so much and so A good rule 
of thumb just on monetary 

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outlays. 
So explicit costs is whatever. 

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Politicians say they are 
severely understating it. 

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I don't know if multiple of 15 
or 20 or 30 is a Rule of thumb, 

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but they're understanding it, 
but the costs are even more 

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significant, why? 
Because costs are not just 

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monetary outlays, but also 
injuries and death to human 

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beings. 
Both Americans. 

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But also foreigners. 
Again, there's even to the 

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extent. 
People count injuries and 

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deaths. 
It tends to be focused on 

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Americans and other people don't
count as Tommy Franks, a member 

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of the US Military One, say we 
don't do body counts 

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representing the US. 
Moment when people are talking 

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about civilians being killed in 
Iraq and Afghanistan. 

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So there's those costs but 
there's a whole nother set of 

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cost, which is in order to 
operate the war Machinery. 

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I don't mean the literal 
Machinery. 

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I mean, the apparatus that 
carries out Warfare. 

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It takes a lot of resources to 
do. 

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Some of those are physical 
resources. 

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So steel has to be pulled from 
making buildings to making 

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tanks. 
Then it also redirects human 

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capital that is you need to 
redirect people's abilities, the

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alertness of entrepreneurs from 
satisfying, the wants of private

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consumers, which is what they do
in markets to satisfying their 

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political Masters. 
And so the cost of War are 

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severely understated just in 
monetary terms as we mentioned 

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their enormous. 
But when you add in these other 

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costs and there are enormous and
you can't measure them 

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completely Because there are 
certain aspects that you can't 

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monetize, so think about think 
about this. 

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You know, if you are born 
before, you know, like I was 

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born in the late 70s. 
So airport security for me was 

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walk through a metal detector. 
Put your bag down, it goes 

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through the X-ray machine, 
that's it 9/11 happens. 

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Now it's you take off your 
shoes, you get your hands wipe 

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for the explosives, you can get 
patted down for having a bead of

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sweat, on your forehead. 
Ed, which is some signal that 

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you might be a terrorist and so 
on and so forth. 

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You can be on watch lists, my 
kids who are young will never 

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know the pre 9/11 experience. 
So to them airport, security, 

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what it is today to, what 
appears to me and others who 

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experienced the prior is very 
different is obnoxious and what 

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government does, they'll never 
know that and that cost those 

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changes in freedoms and 
Liberties these Are not things 

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that you can just monetize. 
Like you can monetize a piece of

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a piece of plastic or metal that
you can purchase on a market. 

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And so those costs are are Broad
and significant. 

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When it comes to the Paul 
Krugman world view of the 

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economy in his book arguing with
zombies. 

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He says look all right we got a 
lot of spending in these 

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government sectors but the 
reality of the economy is my 

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spending is your income and your
spending is my income. 

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So even if you can say look this
or that sectors extremely 

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bloated to stop having such a 
sector is to advocate for More 

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or less an economic recession, 
because you're decreasing the 

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amount of people in the labor 
force. 

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Decreasing the amount of 
spending decreasing the amount 

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of monetary circulation. 
Therefore, when people like you,

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when people like Abigail Hall, 
advocate for decreasing 

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government spending, you're more
or less advocating for 

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recession. 
What if anything is wrong with 

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that logic? 
Well, for this, we need to turn 

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to Frederic bastiat. 
The the famous French Economist 

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and he made a wonderful point. 
It's very straightforward when 

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you realize it, but A lot of 
people fail to internalize it, 

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including those that adopt the 
the type of logic that you just 

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laid out for us and among other 
things. 

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Bastiat pointed out that there's
the seen and the Unseen. 

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So this is oftentimes discussed 
in terms of the broken window 

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fallacy that, you know, 
following a disaster or embossed

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Yachts example, window breaks 
ago, that's good. 

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So, it's bad. 
Of course for the person that 

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has to pay but it's good because
it stimulates economic activity.

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And you hear this after natural 
disasters? 

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You oftentimes Is here with 
more. 

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This is great, it will stimulate
spending, it will give people 

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income. 
Well what does that Overlook? 

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What bastia pointed out and then
of course, Henry hazlitt in 

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economics in one lesson took 
bastiat slesin on the seen and 

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the Unseen. 
And that's the central point, 

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which is another wonderful book 
is, well, wait a second, what 

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would have happened if the 
window had been broken? 

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What would have happened if we 
hadn't gone to War? 

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What would have happened if 
there was an earthquake that 

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destroyed things? 
Oh, we would have had stuff that

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we had prior. 
For was destroyed and we would 

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have had income to spend on 
other things. 

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So it's not like you either fund
war production or the resources 

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magically disappear, they get 
used in other things and so no 

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doubt. 
If you cut the military budget, 

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no doubt. 
If you reduced war production, 

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that people in those Industries,
the owners of firms. 

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The employees of firms 
stockholders of those of those 

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firms would suffer a loss 
because They would have less 

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business and government is their
main source of business. 

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But what that neglects is that 
those resources would be used 

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for other things. 
So, then it really comes down 

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to. 
Where does your confidence lie 

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with What entity has the best 
ability to make decisions about 

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how to spend scarce resources? 
Do you think private decision 

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makers in private competitive 
markets? 

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Are better placed to allocate 
scarce resources or do you think

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that government planners are I 
am of the position that the 

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former that is private economic 
actors or in a superior position

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to determine how to best 
allocate scarce resources. 

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But as you pointed out in your 
motivating question, there are a

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lot of people that are quite 
confident in the ability of 

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government to do so. 
So one more thing on this 

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because this is Cass. 
Sunstein's response to the 

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broken window fallacy he more or
less Embraces the fallacy and 

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attempts to flip it onto us. 
This is in a book titled 

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Conformity he says look there's 
so much trash that the idiot 

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masses waste their money on 
these BMWs. 

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When look if we had outlawed 
BMWs it's just a status symbol 

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it's not like people. 
Couldn't drive that the coolest 

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people in town would have liked 
Intrepid or whatever. 

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You know, let some some other 
sort of cars. 

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So this is really the stupid 
greed economy. 

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That is wasting all these 
resources, imagine what we could

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do, if we limited the amount of 
money that could be spent 

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privately and we combat it 
climate change and we combat it 

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all these authoritarian 
dictators across the world. 

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So sunstein says, yeah. 
I yeah, I agree with the broken 

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window. 
We'll see. 

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Every fallacy, every dollar 
that's spent in the greedy. 

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Private sector could be spent in
the public sector. 

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So when it comes to the mindset 
of public is for everyone, 

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private is for narrow few 
selected people. 

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How do you respond to that 
mentality? 

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Yeah, well I think that the 
underlying assumptions that you 

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just laid out quite nicely, 
you're doing a lot of work and 

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heroic work, the idea that if 
you just transfer these 

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resources that the government 
will do stuff for the people. 

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It's unclear to me why you would
think that would happen just to 

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highlight a couple other 
challenges before returning to 

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this. 
If people private people are too

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Goofy, too dumb to elitist. 
Too narrow focused to pick a car

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or for the nudge. 
People to pick a apple over a 

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Snickers bar, I don't know. 
In what world people think 

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they're going to be able to 
select politicians or Regulators

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that can tell them the best way 
to live. 

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So that's one thing. 
The second thing thing is to the

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extent, we take the status 
symbol logic. 

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And we embrace it will let's be 
consistent, I can't think of a 

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higher status position and 
telling other people how to live

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their life then telling other 
people what they should do for 

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their own good. 
That is the ultimate status 

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position. 
Its power over other human 

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beings and so I care much less 
about people driving a BMW 

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because they think it looks 
nice. 

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Driving down the street compared
you granting a Member of the 

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so-called Elite power to tell 
other people how to live their 

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lives, because then we have to 
focus on selection mechanisms, 

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which then leads us to things 
like fa Hayek's treatment of 

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selection of planners in the 
road to serfdom in the chapter 

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titled. 
Why the worst get on top which 

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is Hayek says, well what type of
people are going to tend to rise

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to the top in situations where 
you get to boss. 

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Other people around where you 
get to control them where you 

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have to rely on instruments of 
force, A threat thereof, which 

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is what the state is in order to
back your mandates, people that 

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feel comfortable doing those 
things. 

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And Hayek says, look quite 
often. 

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Those are not going to be the 
nicest people in society because

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nice people don't like to boss 
other people around. 

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Don't like to force them to do 
things and don't like to use 

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Force to back up their mandates.
But going back to your initial 

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question. 
I don't understand why we would 

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think that government has either
the knowledge or the incentives 

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to carry out these grandiose. 
Projects, they can do stuff, 

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people in government can spend 
money, no doubt. 

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But that is different than doing
things like ending, climate 

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change, creating wealth, ending 
poverty, and so you always have 

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to take into account two things.
Number one, the the knowledge 

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aspects. 
What knowledge is required to 

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do? 
What the the do-gooder say, they

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want to do and then on top of 
that the incentives, what 

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incentives do they face and 
oftentimes. 

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It's highly perverse incentives 
and then Course you know, as one

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writer worn long ago, be wary of
the humanitarian with the 

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guillotine and I think that's 
good advice because they might 

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state that they want to be to do
good, but if you're not careful 

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they'll behead you and that's a 
good warning. 

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I think in these kind of 
discussions and why is that? 

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Is it because the average 
constraint of I'm doing this for

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myself. 
Can sometimes be checked by 

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other people doing things? 
Things in there, you know, 

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explicit self-interest. 
We can say everything's in your 

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self-interest but when the 
humanitarian is oh well I'm 

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doing this on behalf of other 
people and so there's really no 

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stopping me. 
The more you fight me. 

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The more I want to allegedly 
helped these people. 

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As a matter of fact, I want to 
help say blacks so much that I 

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00:12:52,500 --> 00:12:55,200
don't care that the vast 
majority of them prefer school 

230
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choice compared to a districting
system. 

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00:12:58,200 --> 00:12:59,700
They don't even know what's good
for them. 

232
00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:01,800
I see that one all the time. 
Yeah. 

233
00:13:03,100 --> 00:13:05,400
Is that why it is there? 
An actual reason? 

234
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,600
Because they've said that they 
no longer have the constraint 

235
00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:10,200
of. 
I'm not selfish like these 

236
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,600
libertarian people. 
I'm doing this for others. 

237
00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,200
Let's go baby. 
Yeah, I think that's certainly 

238
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,100
part of it and the other part of
it is that genuine 

239
00:13:18,100 --> 00:13:20,800
humanitarianism doesn't require 
force. 

240
00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,900
And so I'm always quite 
skeptical when people say, you 

241
00:13:24,900 --> 00:13:29,000
know we're I'm here to help you 
and they're sticking a gun in 

242
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,900
your face. 
Something's amiss Or the or the,

243
00:13:31,900 --> 00:13:34,400
or the famous meme that went 
around, don't know if it's 

244
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,100
famous but it went around for a 
while back. 

245
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,400
This probably decade ago of 
member of the US, military kick 

246
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:40,800
in a door and Iraq and 
Afghanistan. 

247
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,900
Ends Afghanistan saying in the 
caption was, I'm here to bring 

248
00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:47,400
you democracy. 
There's something funky about 

249
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,400
this. 
In terms of the, the it doesn't 

250
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,000
pass the smell test. 
And whenever that's the case, I,

251
00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:55,800
you know, I makes me hesitant 
but then you take into account 

252
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,300
the kind of incentives you're 
talking about where you can 

253
00:13:58,300 --> 00:14:01,200
shift costs on the other people,
you're not incurring the full. 

254
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,800
Cost of your behavior, 
oftentimes other people are 

255
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:06,400
paying for it. 
So you're spending other 

256
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,800
people's money and when you take
all these things into account 

257
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,500
again, it doesn't mean you can't
do anything to help people. 

258
00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:15,800
But simply saying you want to 
help people and do good, doesn't

259
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:20,000
make it. 
So, and so again, notice the 

260
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,700
consistency in this argument, 
which I like, which is we don't 

261
00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:26,000
have to assume variation agent 
type and what I mean by that is 

262
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,900
we're not saying there's like 
good people and bad people, and 

263
00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:31,100
only bad people are in 
government and only good people 

264
00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:32,400
are In private, the private 
sector. 

265
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:33,600
That might be the case, by the 
way. 

266
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,700
But we don't need to assume that
that makes the argument easy 

267
00:14:36,700 --> 00:14:39,200
because the bad people do bad 
stuff, the good people do, good 

268
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,100
stuff. 
We can assume that in both 

269
00:14:42,100 --> 00:14:43,500
settings, there's good and bad 
people. 

270
00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:46,400
But the institutional 
environment, the incentives, 

271
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,800
they face are quite different. 
And so, the nice part in this 

272
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,200
goes back to Adam Smith and many
others have pointed out in 

273
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,100
markets, is you can be the most 
self-interested arrogant, 

274
00:14:56,100 --> 00:14:59,700
vainglorious person in the 
world, but in order to make 

275
00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:02,700
money in the market you need to 
To satisfy the wants of other 

276
00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:07,100
human beings in politics. 
You do not have to do that and 

277
00:15:07,100 --> 00:15:11,200
that in the more power you give 
to political actors, the more 

278
00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:17,700
space scale and scope you give 
them to exercise their power 

279
00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:20,700
over people. 
And so that's one of the the key

280
00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:25,600
differences to keep in mind, I 
think So what I have written 

281
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:30,100
down here, it seems like what 
you're saying, is the scam. 

282
00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:33,600
Sort of, you wrote a book on 
propaganda here, so I figured, 

283
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,300
you're probably the the best 
person to ask it almost seems 

284
00:15:37,300 --> 00:15:41,300
like the propaganda the 
mechanism is they take something

285
00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,900
that exists in human society, 
greed and ignorance any society 

286
00:15:45,900 --> 00:15:48,600
everywhere you could find some 
grade and some ignorance and 

287
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,200
then they pin it on the 
voluntary sector, never applying

288
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,800
it to their own sector. 
Is that the heart of the 

289
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,800
propaganda that the sunstein's 
of the world are pushing? 

290
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,000
Yeah. 
And I don't know if I, if you 

291
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,300
want to call propaganda. 
I think it's just a lack of 

292
00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:05,000
analytical consistency. 
So I don't know if it's a, I 

293
00:16:05,008 --> 00:16:07,500
don't know if it's an 
intentional misdirection or 

294
00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:10,800
misinformation, it might be, but
I just think people, I think 

295
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,600
people tend to associate the 
public sector with good. 

296
00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,200
And you were put it before in 
the private sector as Cutthroat 

297
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,500
competition, dog-eat-dog 
competition and I'm looking out 

298
00:16:20,500 --> 00:16:23,000
for number one at the expense of
everything. 

299
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,100
Everyone else. 
The public sector, it says 

300
00:16:25,100 --> 00:16:27,300
positive. 
Some, we all benefit and that's 

301
00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:30,500
just not true, you know. 
And, you know, as you pointed 

302
00:16:30,500 --> 00:16:34,900
out greed, is a social constant 
is existed with us forever. 

303
00:16:34,900 --> 00:16:37,800
I remember hearing I forget who 
said it but I like it. 

304
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,500
So I'm going to borrow it and I 
give credit to whoever came up 

305
00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:44,100
with it but using greed as an 
explanatory variable for 

306
00:16:44,100 --> 00:16:48,700
outcomes is the equivalent of 
using gravity to explain why a 

307
00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:51,600
plane crashes. 
If so, if a plane crashes, why 

308
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,600
the plane crashed gravity that 
doesn't explain? 

309
00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:55,900
Lane it because, of course, lots
of planes don't crash. 

310
00:16:56,100 --> 00:16:59,600
And so, there has to be some 
other explanatory factor or 

311
00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,000
factors that can help us explain
it. 

312
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,099
I think it's the the same logic 
here. 

313
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:10,900
The modern monetary theorist, 
Advocates will say that. 

314
00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:14,000
Look under our gold standard, we
had this constraint, you can 

315
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,400
only print so much. 
The thing was backed by a 

316
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,300
commodity, that was really 
horrible. 

317
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:20,900
The good thing. 
Now, is we don't even have to 

318
00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:22,900
print the money that we call 
printing. 

319
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:28,200
We can increase the number of 
digits in your account simply by

320
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,700
having the Federal Reserve enter
them, this allows people to 

321
00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:36,000
access things for free, we could
have free college for Housing 

322
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,300
free healthcare. 
What is wrong with this mindset?

323
00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:43,400
If anything that there's a cost 
to something that has money, we 

324
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,300
give the people the money and 
now it's free. 

325
00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:49,600
What, yes, that missing. 
I mean, the fundamental issue is

326
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,900
that you each when you, when you
print money or create money out 

327
00:17:53,900 --> 00:17:58,200
of thin air, as you nicely 
summarized it it devalues 

328
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:02,200
existing units of the money. 
And so it makes units that 

329
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,800
people are already holding 
worthless each and of Course the

330
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,000
people that tend to suffer the 
most under this type of system 

331
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,200
or those on a fixed income. 
So either relatively poor people

332
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,900
on a fixed income or elderly 
people who are either retired or

333
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:25,800
living off of some kind of nest 
egg that isn't growing, in terms

334
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,800
of earning more income, they 
could be earning interest or 

335
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,900
other returns, of course. 
So, that's the problem. 

336
00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:36,900
Now, the the mmt people, you 
know, look they say, Deficits. 

337
00:18:36,900 --> 00:18:39,600
Don't matter increase in the 
money supply. 

338
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,600
Is it matter. 
It's not that inflation. 

339
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,500
Can't happen, they say but we 
can tame it through regulations 

340
00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:49,900
and taxes and so they attribute 
a lot of inflationary causation 

341
00:18:49,900 --> 00:18:53,500
to greet to go back to our 
earlier conversation and 

342
00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:56,400
specifically, the greed of 
Corporations and windfall 

343
00:18:56,700 --> 00:18:59,600
supposed windfall profits. 
That's kind of language they 

344
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,300
use. 
And so what is the way you know?

345
00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:04,600
I think about this. 
Well we have the inflationary 

346
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,400
pressure in terms of Introducing
existing value of money. 

347
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,500
You have relative price 
distortions. 

348
00:19:10,700 --> 00:19:14,800
So what I mean by that is as 
Government prints money, it's 

349
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,900
presumably going to spend it. 
And when it's spends it it will 

350
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:22,400
influence prices. 
But in doing that it's changing 

351
00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,900
the structure of those prices 
that that which would emerge if 

352
00:19:25,900 --> 00:19:27,800
markets were left up to their 
own devices. 

353
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,700
And so, you know, if Government 
injects a lot of money into, I 

354
00:19:31,708 --> 00:19:35,300
don't know, pick something and 
it's gonna change the scarcity. 

355
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:37,900
Chance of that resource or 
resources and that's going to 

356
00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:40,400
have Ripple effects throughout 
the economic system in ways that

357
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,900
you and I don't know, you know, 
the beauty of a market economy, 

358
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,100
is that it operates? 
So efficiently, that you and I 

359
00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:50,400
don't need to know details as 
the, the Nobel prize-winning 

360
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,800
Economist. 
Fa Hayek said, like, look, if 

361
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,600
the price of 10 increases, you 
know, an economist would talk 

362
00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,500
about that is, okay. 
Let's think about supply and 

363
00:19:58,500 --> 00:20:00,200
demand, right? 
And we could draw supply and 

364
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,300
demand curves on the breadboard 
and talk about it. 

365
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,300
Ordinary People just walk around
and live their life. 

366
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,700
If they see the price of tin, go
up and they consume less 10 on 

367
00:20:08,700 --> 00:20:11,800
the margin because it's more 
expensive, which captures the 

368
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,100
relative, scarcity of 10. 
When government starts 

369
00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:19,100
intervening in the economy, it 
starts to stored in those 

370
00:20:19,100 --> 00:20:23,000
relative prices, so it might 
make 10 more scarce even though 

371
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,600
that's not reflecting genuine, 
underlying Market valuations to 

372
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,800
reflecting the valuations of 
government planners. 

373
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,700
And this going back to where we 
started, by the way, is why the 

374
00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:36,800
war economy is so devastating. 
It is It's simply the monetary 

375
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,800
outlays. 
It's a lot, you know, the US 

376
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,100
government is what heading 
towards a trillion-dollar base 

377
00:20:41,100 --> 00:20:42,500
budget. 
That's, that's the direction 

378
00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:44,400
it's heading for the Department 
of Defense. 

379
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,700
That's a lot of money in the Raw
meaning in itself, but when it 

380
00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:51,700
ends, when that money is both 
pulled out of the private sector

381
00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:55,100
or dead is issued, which means 
you got to pull it out later to 

382
00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:59,000
repay the debt or when 
government intervenes and 

383
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:04,800
markets to redirect resources, 
from producing private computers

384
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,400
to produce. 
And cute computers for f-35s 

385
00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:11,900
that has real effects on 
physical items. 

386
00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:16,700
In the economic system, it has 
effects on human capital and 

387
00:21:16,700 --> 00:21:19,500
laborers, it redirects. 
All these things and distorts, 

388
00:21:19,500 --> 00:21:23,900
all these markets in ways that 
you can't see, you can't see it.

389
00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:27,200
Because the market economy is so
complex, you can't see it 

390
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,600
because it's not something you 
can just easily measure and add 

391
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:37,000
up, and that's what makes it so,
Dangerous is the fact that it 

392
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,100
has these Ripple effects on the 
broader, dynamism of the market 

393
00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:43,900
economy, which are often times 
neglected, just because they're 

394
00:21:43,900 --> 00:21:46,900
so difficult for people to grasp
and went come back to our 

395
00:21:46,900 --> 00:21:51,500
comments earlier about the 
spending for spending sake, just

396
00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:54,200
to increase output. 
If you treat all of this stuff 

397
00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,300
is homogeneous. 
So the same you avoid this 

398
00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:01,000
problem because a dollar spent 
on an iPhone for private 

399
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:03,700
consumer is the same as the 
dollar spent by the government 

400
00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:05,900
on a drone in that. 
Framework. 

401
00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:08,500
A dollar is a dollar. 
In fact, some people say well 

402
00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:10,600
no, there's a multiplier. 
If we give a dollar to the 

403
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,400
Drone, then you get this 
multiplier effect, you get even 

404
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,200
more spending. 
Well, I think any ordinary 

405
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,400
person if you said to them as an
iPhone, the same as a droid 

406
00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:22,300
drone. 
They'd realize, no, it's not. 

407
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,200
And once you realize that you 
realize that spending has real 

408
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,300
effects because that dollar 
spent on the Drone, has to come 

409
00:22:28,300 --> 00:22:32,000
from somewhere else. 
It has to, you can print it but 

410
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:33,800
that has real economic effects 
as well. 

411
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,900
So there's no way to avoid Cos 
it's just one of those costs go 

412
00:22:37,900 --> 00:22:41,400
to look like and how good it, 
you are hiding them from 

413
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,200
Ordinary People because that's 
the shell game like can we move 

414
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,200
resources around enough, so 
people don't see what's 

415
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,400
happening and then they do see 
we just chalk it up. 

416
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,000
Either too greedy corporations 
or as in the case of the world 

417
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,800
wars we put out propaganda 
posters about sacrificing. 

418
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,100
So during WWII. 
What did you have Victory 

419
00:23:02,100 --> 00:23:03,200
Gardens? 
Right? 

420
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,200
Grow your own food talk about. 
Out demonstrating that war is 

421
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,800
destructive for development. 
Most people in wealthy societies

422
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,300
have Gardens for a hobby, not 
because it's their source of 

423
00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:15,300
food. 
We're in a wealthy Society, we 

424
00:23:15,300 --> 00:23:19,100
rely on other fellow human 
beings to produce food and then 

425
00:23:19,100 --> 00:23:22,900
we peacefully trade with them. 
What the Lord did was to 

426
00:23:22,900 --> 00:23:27,600
impoverish people, such that 
Government tried to make it 

427
00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:29,900
patriotic. 
And as part of the sacrifice to 

428
00:23:29,900 --> 00:23:33,800
grow your own food again, to 
literally return you to earlier 

429
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,800
stages of development. 
That is the destructive nature 

430
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,100
of warfare and then you take 
that and you spread it across a 

431
00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:44,200
whole host of different economic
activities because the US 

432
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:50,700
military sector is entangled 
with so many private sector 

433
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,500
Industries. 
We tend to think of the main 

434
00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:57,000
military contractors and those 
are key but you start looking at

435
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,500
military contractors, are firms,
that received, military 

436
00:24:00,500 --> 00:24:04,900
contracts, Healthcare Providers 
technology companies because of 

437
00:24:04,908 --> 00:24:09,300
course, You need people to run 
the apparatus, it literally 

438
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:15,100
infects it being the military, 
infects, all aspects of domestic

439
00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:19,400
life, and we take it for 
granted, we don't, most people 

440
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,700
don't even know about and care 
about it and we've been so 

441
00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:24,500
trained to think about it as 
well. 

442
00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:28,500
This is a necessary thing. 
It is patriotic to support this 

443
00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:30,300
that most people don't even 
question it. 

444
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,600
Yeah, I'm I'm not sure how how 
that lies started. 

445
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,800
We're just because you don't 
think something should be like, 

446
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,800
totally dominant, doesn't mean 
you don't appreciate it. 

447
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,900
The, the analogy that I use is 
it's like I don't believe 

448
00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:47,600
Farmers have a right to go 
around and boss, everyone 

449
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:51,000
around, and take their income 
with the threat of jailing them.

450
00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:53,700
That doesn't mean I'm not 
appreciative of farmers. 

451
00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:55,800
Same thing in the security 
sector. 

452
00:24:55,900 --> 00:25:00,900
The the lack of questioning. 
Surely, surely is one one of the

453
00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:06,100
Great Hurdles, we face when it 
comes to trying to decrease the 

454
00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:09,300
amount of spending. 
So so let's say we have a 

455
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,300
drastic decrease in the amount 
of people in the military. 

456
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,100
Well, first, I actually want to 
get to. 

457
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,400
Are you familiar with the term 
blowback? 

458
00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:18,100
Oh yeah. 
Oh yeah. 

459
00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:20,700
Can you explain what that means?
And what evidence? 

460
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,000
If any there is for such a 
theory? 

461
00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:27,100
Yeah, well the idea of blowback,
a lot of people think about it 

462
00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:31,300
kind of as an unintended 
consequence or or a foreign 

463
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:32,500
entity. 
Te T doing something. 

464
00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:35,100
Back to the United store. 
The intervening government. 

465
00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:37,000
So it's often. 
It was, it was a term coined by 

466
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:43,300
the CIA and it what it, what it 
entails is when you intervene in

467
00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:48,400
another society, when you engage
in foreign policy typically, or 

468
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,900
talking about either direct 
military operations are covert 

469
00:25:50,900 --> 00:25:56,200
operations. 
Blowback is when the recipients 

470
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,800
if you will or the targets of 
that action do things in 

471
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:04,300
response to The intervening 
country that's the in the 

472
00:26:04,300 --> 00:26:06,400
broadest sensor. 
The way I described it in plain 

473
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,200
English is if you poked a 
hornet's nest, you're going to 

474
00:26:09,208 --> 00:26:11,800
get stung. 
That's that's to me. 

475
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,800
Blowback, there's a wonderful 
political Scientist by the name 

476
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,500
of Chalmers Johnson, who wrote a
book called blowback. 

477
00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:20,100
So if people want to read more 
about this. 

478
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,300
But that's the idea it's that 
when you when you it's related 

479
00:26:24,300 --> 00:26:26,400
to foreign policy and foreign 
intervention. 

480
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,700
And again this isn't some 
conspiracy theory or libertarian

481
00:26:30,700 --> 00:26:34,000
concept. 
The CIA are the folks that 

482
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,300
coined the term. 
And again, it doesn't take a 

483
00:26:37,300 --> 00:26:40,500
rocket scientist to realize. 
This there's examples throughout

484
00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:44,600
human history of one group of 
people or one government 

485
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:49,800
intervening abroad, and those 
people being targeted 

486
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,900
retaliating against the 
intervening government. 

487
00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:58,700
And that's the risk again, the 
problem is this very rarely. 

488
00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:02,200
Does anyone make that connection
publicly Certainly not knowing 

489
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,500
in the in the public space that 
wants to keep their job. 

490
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,700
What they do is interventions 
are take undertaken. 

491
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:15,200
It generates a host of intended 
consequences and unintended 

492
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,400
consequences and then that 
necessitates subsequent 

493
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:25,000
interventions and those things 
are Justified based on the first

494
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,100
failure. 
So the need to intervene again 

495
00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:31,000
is because oh look, they're 
attacking us, very rarely does 

496
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,400
anyone. 
Never asked. 

497
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,100
Well why, right? 
And and of course, kind of the, 

498
00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:37,700
the famous moment in 
Contemporary American politics 

499
00:27:37,700 --> 00:27:42,900
is the great debate where on the
Republican platform, where Ron 

500
00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:48,100
Paul and Rudy Giuliani famously 
got into it because Ron, Paul 

501
00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:52,700
brought up this issue of 
blowback with that 9/11 attacks.

502
00:27:52,700 --> 00:27:56,700
And Giuliani said well how dare 
you blame America, how dare you 

503
00:27:56,700 --> 00:28:01,300
even say that, right? 
That the idea of even saying 

504
00:28:01,300 --> 00:28:03,800
that Intervening in another 
Society could have unintended 

505
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:09,900
consequences is off-limits. 
And so different people analysts

506
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:15,200
put different weight on blowback
as an explanatory variable, for 

507
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,200
different outcomes but I 
certainly think it's an 

508
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,900
important one and you know, if 
you go read you know like Andrew

509
00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:24,600
base of itches book on the 
Middle East, on the history of 

510
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,000
US intervention in the Middle 
East, it's just a wonderful 

511
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,000
example of this. 
There's a lot of other great 

512
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,600
history in there too but just A 
wonderful example and if you 

513
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,100
read it through this lens, you 
see, just one intervention 

514
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,700
leading to lead to another 
intervention, this kind of 

515
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:40,600
spiral effect. 
And then, as I mentioned, Chama 

516
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:44,600
Chama Johnson's book. 
Blowback has just wonderful 

517
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:50,200
examples of this logic as well. 
There is a book, titled Jihad 

518
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,100
Bin Laden in his own words, 
interviews speeches and 

519
00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:58,500
declarations and it's goes back 
to Bin Laden's, 1995 letter to 

520
00:28:58,500 --> 00:29:02,500
King fahd of Saudi Arabia, all 
the way up until I think. 2002 

521
00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:06,100
it records all this and it's 
very clear that Bin Laden's. 

522
00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:10,100
Biggest recruiting mechanism is 
the Americans occupy. 

523
00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:13,000
The land of the two, holy 
sanctuaries in a conspiracy. 

524
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,800
With the Saudi regime, which is 
now a legitimate and they use 

525
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:22,500
that to bomb people in Iraq, 
from after the first Gulf War 

526
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,900
and an axe sanctions which kill 
civilians, not to mention 

527
00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:29,400
support for Israel, which which 
of course he also mentions. 

528
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,500
So the fact that 911, the big 
justification for a big military

529
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,800
in my lifetime. 
People don't appreciate that. 

530
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,900
And one more example, which 
doesn't get nearly enough. 

531
00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:45,300
Attention here is a quote from 
the transcript of Omar. 

532
00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:49,400
Matine's 911 call. 
This is the murderer from the 

533
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,600
Pulse Nightclub in Orlando. 
Florida. 

534
00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:54,900
What Obama called the worst mass
shooting in American history 

535
00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:58,100
because he didn't want to admit.
That Wounded Knee was a lot 

536
00:29:58,100 --> 00:30:00,500
bigger. 
Omar Mateen says, you have to 

537
00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:02,900
tell America to Bombing Syria 
and Iraq. 

538
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,000
They are killing a lot of 
innocent people. 

539
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,700
What am I to do here? 
When my people are getting 

540
00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:11,000
killed over there, you have to 
tell the US government to stop 

541
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,500
bombing. 
They are killing too many 

542
00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:14,600
children. 
They are killing too many women.

543
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,100
Okay, you need to know that they
need to stop bombing Syria and 

544
00:30:19,100 --> 00:30:20,900
Iraq. 
The u.s. is collaborating with 

545
00:30:20,900 --> 00:30:24,200
Russia and they are killing 
innocent women and children, 

546
00:30:24,300 --> 00:30:26,900
okay. 
The airstrikes need to stop and 

547
00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:30,900
stop collaborating with Russia. 
Now you feel now you feel how it

548
00:30:30,900 --> 00:30:36,600
is Now, you feel how it is? 
That is an exact transcript from

549
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,300
the Pulse Nightclub murderer. 
So, of course, Donald Trump and 

550
00:30:40,300 --> 00:30:44,300
Barack Obama lie and say, well, 
he was just an Islamic homophobe

551
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,500
not I've read the transcript, 18
Pages, no homophobia. 

552
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:54,300
It's just that again, and again 
and again, anything else before 

553
00:30:54,300 --> 00:30:59,900
we move on on, non monetary cost
to a interventionist foreign 

554
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:02,800
policy. 
I think just to kind of close 

555
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,500
the circle on this. 
I think the main takeaway is 

556
00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:08,400
that the first one which is 
straightforward, is that the 

557
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,300
costs of War are always 
understated? 

558
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,500
Always, there always 
understated. 

559
00:31:13,500 --> 00:31:16,600
Both, as I mentioned earlier on 
the explicit monetary side, but 

560
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:20,000
all these other costs, which are
unseen, but have real effects on

561
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,700
human life are, are, are there 
and they are real? 

562
00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:28,100
And they are neglected and no 
one in the polity. 

563
00:31:28,100 --> 00:31:31,300
So no one in the public space 
who wants to advance. 

564
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,400
Since their career has any 
interest in revealing those 

565
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,700
costs or protecting them. 
You know, the interesting thing 

566
00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:39,800
about this blowback conversation
is that where these things 

567
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,500
happen? 
Like the perfect example, you 

568
00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:45,100
just read understand as a 
government, even for Defenders 

569
00:31:45,100 --> 00:31:47,600
of government doesn't matter 
what your ideological stripe is 

570
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,800
government is doing the opposite
of what they purport to do. 

571
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,500
So you know, people on the left 
people on the right people in 

572
00:31:54,508 --> 00:31:55,800
the middle. 
What do they say? 

573
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,800
Well most of them believe in 
government and they'll what they

574
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,000
want government do varies but 
almost All of them will say, 

575
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,300
well, government has to protect,
people has to protect their 

576
00:32:04,300 --> 00:32:05,500
freedoms. 
It has to protect their 

577
00:32:05,500 --> 00:32:08,200
Liberties, their rights, their 
person and property. 

578
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,800
Okay, that's nice. 
But as you pointed out, past 

579
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,300
actions are actually undermining
those things and that's one of 

580
00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:18,600
the costs of war. 
The reason they're understated 

581
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,300
is because they're long and 
variable and they often times 

582
00:32:23,300 --> 00:32:27,200
take decades to emerge. 
So you get the Espionage Act in 

583
00:32:27,208 --> 00:32:30,300
the early 1900's is another 
example of kind of the long and 

584
00:32:30,300 --> 00:32:33,700
variable affects of Of foreign 
policy, that's what I think 

585
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:38,200
1917, the presidential 
Administration that used the 

586
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,300
Espionage Act. 
Most was the Obama 

587
00:32:40,300 --> 00:32:43,600
Administration and they 
leveraged it against journalists

588
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:48,000
against leakers that was not the
original intent of the act at 

589
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,300
all. 
And so you can see how you 

590
00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:52,800
expand Government powers decades
ago. 

591
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,100
It sits idle. 
And then all of a sudden you 

592
00:32:56,100 --> 00:32:58,100
have the precedent for 
government to expand in the 

593
00:32:58,108 --> 00:33:02,800
future and so the weapons of War
II Just literally the weapons, 

594
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,700
the the instrument of war and 
violence is something that 

595
00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:09,800
should be wielded very carefully
yet, it's just the opposite in 

596
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,800
America, it is there's Unity 
around it in certainly 

597
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,100
Washington DC. 
But you know, if you look at 

598
00:33:16,100 --> 00:33:19,100
public opinion, polls, most 
Americans are highly supportive 

599
00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:21,200
of the US military. 
It's, I think it's the most 

600
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:26,300
trusted institution in the 
federal government, and that 

601
00:33:26,300 --> 00:33:30,300
gives a blindness to how that 
instrument is used by policy 

602
00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:34,700
makers and so So that's the kind
of takeaways from this. 

603
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:39,600
I think my colleague at the 
libertarian Institute, Laura 

604
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,600
Calhoun put puts forth a very 
convincing thesis. 

605
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,400
She says that when people, you 
know, are sort of looking for, 

606
00:33:49,100 --> 00:33:52,000
you know, how to do things 
because politicians are always 

607
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,600
on the television, they 
sometimes, you know, work the 

608
00:33:54,608 --> 00:33:57,900
politician into their 
personality and that sort of 

609
00:33:57,900 --> 00:34:00,700
builds the culture. 
And when the politicians are 

610
00:34:00,700 --> 00:34:04,100
constantly, Aang, we have an 
issue, let's use the police. 

611
00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:07,100
Let's use the military. 
Well, all these people in the 

612
00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:10,600
society are now much more likely
to use violence in their 

613
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,300
everyday lives and you see it 
all the time. 

614
00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:17,199
Like any time, someone has like 
a, a friendly joke, and they're 

615
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:20,500
filming it on YouTube, get away,
or I'm going to call the police,

616
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,500
call the police. 
I mean, it's it's now in their 

617
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,800
mental chip and it's their go to
and she says, it goes up to, and

618
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,500
including things like, you know,
They're called Mass Shooters 

619
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,199
Mass murderers. 
Who use guns do you think 

620
00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:40,300
there's actually a cultural 
effect that going to war has to 

621
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:43,600
the domestic population? 
Oh I certainly do. 

622
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,300
I certainly do that even, you 
know, you have to I don't even 

623
00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:50,400
think you have to be a 
psychologist Jew to understand 

624
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:51,400
this. 
I mean, just look at the 

625
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,300
history. 
You don't go back that far. 

626
00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:55,300
Just look back to certainly to 
the world wars. 

627
00:34:55,500 --> 00:34:59,600
Every major war, the United 
States has fought, what has the 

628
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:01,200
government done. 
It takes. 

629
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:02,700
Goes back to the propaganda 
point. 

630
00:35:02,700 --> 00:35:07,900
They take active steps to 
cultivate a culture of unity of 

631
00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:10,900
sacrifice of patriotism. 
All, in the name of the war 

632
00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:14,600
effort, they work to disarm 
descent. 

633
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,800
Sometimes through persuasion, 
sometimes through covert 

634
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,300
operations. 
Like, when the CIA FBI NSA were 

635
00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:28,800
surveilling, infiltrating and 
the anti-war movement during 

636
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,200
Vietnam War. 
And so So it certainly has a 

637
00:35:32,207 --> 00:35:39,300
cultural effect on top of that. 
It certainly in America other 

638
00:35:39,300 --> 00:35:41,700
countries to perhaps by no 
America the best. 

639
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:47,100
From a very young age kids are 
indoctrinated into the idea that

640
00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:51,100
the state and the military are 
necessary to protect us. 

641
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,800
The whole idea about thanking 
members of the military for 

642
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,400
their service, irregardless of 
knowing anything about them. 

643
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:03,500
What they've done. 
You know, meaning that a lot of 

644
00:36:03,500 --> 00:36:07,200
people in the military are not 
on the front lines of combat, 

645
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:10,200
they're sitting in an office and
that might be fine and well for 

646
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,700
what they do. 
But it's weird to thank them for

647
00:36:12,700 --> 00:36:14,900
their service. 
Like somehow they're doing 

648
00:36:14,900 --> 00:36:20,100
something heroic, but we do that
and and for a country that is 

649
00:36:20,100 --> 00:36:25,300
built on skepticism of 
government on patriotism, not in

650
00:36:25,300 --> 00:36:29,300
terms of worshipping the state. 
But in terms of the ideas of 

651
00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:32,900
individual, liberty and freedom,
To my way of thinking, that's 

652
00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:38,000
quite an odd practice. 
And so certainly, I think there 

653
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,800
is a cultural, a culture that is
both necessary for government to

654
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,800
operate its militaristic 
activities. 

655
00:36:45,100 --> 00:36:49,000
But it also cultivates those 
very things and it cultivates 

656
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,500
them through education, formal 
education, it cultivates them 

657
00:36:53,500 --> 00:36:57,100
through media and Partnerships 
with the media. 

658
00:36:57,700 --> 00:37:00,200
Again, if you think this is some
kind of conspiracy theory just 

659
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,000
look up Ation Mockingbird which 
was a major government operation

660
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,800
to partner with journalists and 
through Hollywood. 

661
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,700
And so a lot of people and Abby.
And I talked about this in 

662
00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:14,300
manufacturing militarism, you 
know, a lot of people don't 

663
00:37:14,300 --> 00:37:18,700
realize that many Hollywood 
films partner with the 

664
00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:21,500
Department of Defense that has a
department that is focused on 

665
00:37:21,500 --> 00:37:24,300
entertainment. 
The government subsidizes them, 

666
00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:28,700
by providing them resources and 
access to military facilities, 

667
00:37:29,300 --> 00:37:33,800
but they get to review the 
script and make suggestions for 

668
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,700
changes. 
One of the most justified 

669
00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:42,900
unquestionable Wars that America
has been involved in, in my 

670
00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:48,400
lifetime was Afghanistan. 
What are the major lessons we 

671
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,300
could learn from us intervention
in Afghanistan? 

672
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:53,500
Yeah. 
Well, the main one, I don't mean

673
00:37:53,500 --> 00:37:55,400
to sound flippant, but don't do 
it. 

674
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:01,000
I mean, you know, I, I'm, I was 
amazed 5, not really, that's too

675
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,500
strong. 
But when the Afghanistan papers 

676
00:38:03,500 --> 00:38:06,100
came out. 
So the Afghanistan Papers are 

677
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,300
there. 
Most of them are publicly 

678
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:11,200
available already or at least 
the the reports by the Inspector

679
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,800
General for the Afghanistan 
reconstruction where but the 

680
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:16,800
Afghanistan papers are a series 
of Lessons Learned reports from 

681
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,400
cigar. 
That's the special Inspector 

682
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,700
General for the Afghan 
reconstruction and a bunch of 

683
00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:24,400
what are called snowflake memos.
They're short memo still like 

684
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,900
one page or call paragraph memos
from Donald Rumsfeld or to 

685
00:38:27,900 --> 00:38:31,300
Rumsfeld and Craig Whitlock. 
I believe is a journalist named 

686
00:38:31,300 --> 00:38:34,400
who foiled these and got these 
and they released them there on 

687
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,000
the watch. 
Post website and then he wrote a

688
00:38:36,008 --> 00:38:38,900
book called Afghanistan papers 
that weaves them together into a

689
00:38:38,908 --> 00:38:41,600
narrative. 
Go read that book for those 

690
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,900
interested and Page after page, 
what do you see, exactly what 

691
00:38:46,900 --> 00:38:49,200
any skeptic of government would 
expect? 

692
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,200
Perhaps even worse perverse 
incentives. 

693
00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:55,700
So you have corruption not just 
in Afghanistan, but domestically

694
00:38:55,900 --> 00:39:00,000
because you have money flying 
around with no checks and people

695
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,200
are just trying to grab it as 
quickly as they can. 

696
00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:04,700
What else do you have 
dysfunction? 

697
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,800
From top to bottom both in the 
US government in foreign 

698
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,200
operations and foreign relations
with other governments, just 

699
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,200
massive dysfunction. 
It's not like, there's a couple 

700
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,400
mistakes made. 
So a lot of people like to say, 

701
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,500
well, what did we learn? 
And then, they'll say things 

702
00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:21,900
like, well, we need to do this 
better. 

703
00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:24,500
We need to plan better. 
We need more resources. 

704
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:30,100
Well, not really my reading of 
the Afghanistan papers is that 

705
00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:37,700
there are systemic features of 
the Military apparatus both 

706
00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:41,400
domestically and 
internationally, which prevents 

707
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,200
it from doing those things that 
proponents of that apparatus 

708
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:48,200
claim, it can do. 
And so when that's the case, 

709
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,800
it's not a, it's not a matter of
just, well, if we had better 

710
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,900
people planning, we had lots of 
people planning. 

711
00:39:53,900 --> 00:39:56,900
We had bipartisan, we had 
multiple administration's 

712
00:39:57,100 --> 00:40:00,400
planning in Afghanistan. 
It's not a matter of resources. 

713
00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,700
We had lots of resources. 
It's a pure matter of State. 

714
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:12,500
Pathologies of a set of 
dysfunctions inherent in a 

715
00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:16,200
large-scale government operation
and those things cannot be 

716
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:22,700
fixed. 
That means that at a minimum 

717
00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:27,200
someone who advocates for these 
things I would hope would be 

718
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:31,200
extremely skeptical going 
forward for those of us who are 

719
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:36,900
skeptical going into Afghanistan
that My way of thinking provides

720
00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:42,600
a series of data points to 
illustrate the various concerns 

721
00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:46,500
that we have with the operation 
of that state apparatus and it 

722
00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:48,400
doesn't require cherry-picking. 
It's not like you're just 

723
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,000
picking out the bad stuff that 
happened. 

724
00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:53,100
I mean, the entire thing was a 
disaster, and you can even see 

725
00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:55,100
this in the points of success 
people race. 

726
00:40:55,300 --> 00:40:56,600
Like, what are the points of 
success? 

727
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,400
They race? 
Well, they typically 

728
00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:02,600
cherry-picked themselves and say
well women in this area got 

729
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,400
access to education. 
Well, number one, The argument 

730
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,900
for invading Afghanistan, was 
not, let's give some women 

731
00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:12,100
access to education. 
That only became the goal when 

732
00:41:12,100 --> 00:41:15,900
it became the goal. 
Second of all, they, it's Cherry

733
00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:19,100
Picked because those instances 
where they increased access, 

734
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:22,200
they exclude the rest of the 
country, where there was things 

735
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,300
got worse for women. 
Oftentimes driven by the 

736
00:41:25,300 --> 00:41:30,200
occupiers, by the way and of 
course the minute the u.s. left 

737
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,300
which itself was a disaster 
while they're still there, but 

738
00:41:32,300 --> 00:41:35,200
formally left. 
It all collapsed. 

739
00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:38,700
So none of it was sustainable. 
None of it was legitimate 

740
00:41:38,700 --> 00:41:40,700
nation-building or Society 
building. 

741
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,000
It was all just a dysfunctional 
shell game. 

742
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,800
And when I read this, I remember
thinking like, okay, this is a 

743
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:51,000
chance like people if they read 
this, they're really going to 

744
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:52,400
see. 
It's kind of pulled back the 

745
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,800
curtain on the operations of the
security State and then, of 

746
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,900
course, Russia and Ukraine 
happened not long after. 

747
00:41:58,900 --> 00:42:01,200
Now everyone again is like, 
well, now we need to double 

748
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,100
down. 
We need a bigger military 

749
00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:04,900
because of Russia. 
Because of China. 

750
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:11,100
And so the, the the very small 
opening in the window for a 

751
00:42:11,100 --> 00:42:15,900
critical discussion and critique
of not just Afghanistan but of 

752
00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:19,800
the security state in the 
military sector itself. 

753
00:42:20,300 --> 00:42:23,700
Slammed shut pretty quickly and 
that's disheartening. 

754
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:32,200
But also I think cause for dumb 
people like myself doubling down

755
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,900
because now, We need more than 
ever to make clear to people how

756
00:42:36,900 --> 00:42:41,500
this thing operates, especially 
because of the risks that are 

757
00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:44,400
posed by places like 
interactions with Russia and 

758
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,900
China where nuclear Wars on the 
table. 

759
00:42:48,100 --> 00:42:52,100
And and so it's the stakes for 
humankind now or even greater. 

760
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:54,300
If we go back to where we 
started talking about the cost 

761
00:42:54,300 --> 00:43:01,000
of War, Of course, yes. 
So nato in its entire history, 

762
00:43:01,500 --> 00:43:05,100
declares war declares Article 5 
for the first time and then 

763
00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:08,600
spends 20 years of an operation 
in Afghanistan and then the 

764
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:14,300
Taliban Takeover in 11 days and 
we have murder rates increasing 

765
00:43:14,300 --> 00:43:18,000
in places, like, Seattle, 
Chicago, all across America, a 

766
00:43:18,008 --> 00:43:22,900
lot of crime going up. 
And this is what Joe Biden 

767
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,500
actually says, on 60 Minutes. 
What? 

768
00:43:26,100 --> 00:43:32,000
Chinese president XI know about 
your commitment to Taiwan. 

769
00:43:32,100 --> 00:43:36,800
We agree with what we signed on 
do a long time ago and there's 

770
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,000
one China policy and Taiwan 
makes their own judgments about 

771
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,000
their independence. 
We are not moving, we're not 

772
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,600
encouraging, their being 
independent, we're not to let 

773
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:49,500
that's their decision but would 
US forces defend the island. 

774
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,400
Yes, if in fact, there was an 
unprecedented attack after our 

775
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,300
interview of White House, 
official told us US policy has 

776
00:43:57,300 --> 00:44:02,600
not changed officially the US 
will not say whether American 

777
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:07,300
forces would defend Taiwan, but 
the commander-in-chief had a 

778
00:44:07,300 --> 00:44:10,800
view of his own. 
So unlike Ukraine to be clear, 

779
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,900
sir US forces us. 
Men and women would defend 

780
00:44:14,900 --> 00:44:17,500
Taiwan in the event of a Chinese
Invasion. 

781
00:44:17,900 --> 00:44:22,200
Yes. 
What would be the potential? 

782
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:27,600
Downsides of the US intervening 
in a conflict between China and 

783
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,100
Taiwan. 
Clothespins, the biggest 

784
00:44:30,100 --> 00:44:33,400
downside would be a war of 
massive proportions that would 

785
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,800
kill Millions. 
Upon Millions upon millions of 

786
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:40,100
people nuclear war. 
Of course, would talk about 

787
00:44:40,100 --> 00:44:44,300
costs not just lead to immediate
Devastation of a significant 

788
00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:48,100
number of human lives. 
But have long-term effects due 

789
00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:51,800
to things like nuclear. 
Which, of course, the idea that 

790
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,700
it affects the atmosphere which 
then will affect the ability for

791
00:44:54,700 --> 00:45:01,600
things like crops to grow for 
other areas of life to function 

792
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:03,900
because of the effects on the 
atmosphere. 

793
00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:08,900
And so, you know that clip is 
you kind of chuckle when you 

794
00:45:08,900 --> 00:45:11,200
hear, because it's like no one 
China and then two seconds 

795
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,100
later, it's like no, we're going
to, we're going to defend them 

796
00:45:13,100 --> 00:45:15,400
if we need to. 
And so it's somewhat funny, but 

797
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,500
it's also scary. 
It's scary. 

798
00:45:17,500 --> 00:45:19,900
Of course, the consequences, but
it's also scary. 

799
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,900
Because who's running this 
apparatus. 

800
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,800
So the president you know, is 
runs part of it. 

801
00:45:27,500 --> 00:45:31,300
And but it also an enormous 
apparatus, you know, people 

802
00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:33,900
refer to as the Deep state but 
that's outside the president's 

803
00:45:33,900 --> 00:45:36,300
control. 
Again, people like to think 

804
00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:39,600
there's one person, but it's 
representative, I think of the 

805
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,900
dysfunction of it. 
And so, again, the issue is 

806
00:45:43,100 --> 00:45:46,800
people like to think of someone 
being in control, they'll say 

807
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,000
things like we need government 
because someone needs to create 

808
00:45:50,100 --> 00:45:52,400
Order someone needs to create 
stability absent. 

809
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:54,400
This we'd have chaos, we can't 
have chaos. 

810
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,000
We'll just listen to that clip. 
That's chaos. 

811
00:45:57,700 --> 00:45:59,800
Its orderly. 
In terms of, there's a sentence 

812
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,900
being said, in a certain 
structure, that's the order, but

813
00:46:02,900 --> 00:46:05,000
it's chaos. 
In terms of simultaneously, you 

814
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:10,400
have the head of the most 
powerful military in the world 

815
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,600
saying No One China, we're not 
getting Ravine and then we're 

816
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:17,800
going to intervene to defend. 
And so you know, one of my big 

817
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,700
concerns and something. 
I've Tried to push in my own 

818
00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:25,400
writing is, you know, a lot of 
people frame international 

819
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,300
relations like, no, we have to 
be tough. 

820
00:46:27,300 --> 00:46:30,500
We have to deter if we don't 
talk strong than other people 

821
00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:34,500
take over, maybe. 
But there's something to be said

822
00:46:34,500 --> 00:46:38,800
about when you talk tough, it 
also incentivizes other people 

823
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:44,100
to be tough as well. 
And so, often times the threat 

824
00:46:44,100 --> 00:46:46,700
of violence is endogenous, 
meaning internal to the 

825
00:46:46,700 --> 00:46:49,300
interactions between people. 
It's a response. 

826
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:52,900
You how you are behaving in the 
threat, they perceive. 

827
00:46:53,500 --> 00:46:57,300
And so, one of the things I 
think is really hard is to try 

828
00:46:57,300 --> 00:47:00,300
to think about from the 
perspective of other people, 

829
00:47:00,300 --> 00:47:03,500
non-americans how they might 
perceive statements, like the 

830
00:47:03,500 --> 00:47:07,100
one we just heard and if they 
feel threatened, they're going 

831
00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:08,700
to respond accordingly. 
And how are they going to 

832
00:47:08,700 --> 00:47:12,000
respond? 
Presumably by making military 

833
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:13,800
moves. 
But then that creates again is 

834
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,600
we're going back to what we 
talked about earlier that 

835
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,800
requires. 
Now the need for more military 

836
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,900
response because we need to be 
tough and it's just Is a spiral 

837
00:47:22,700 --> 00:47:27,700
and so emphasizing things like 
diplomacy emphasizing things 

838
00:47:27,700 --> 00:47:31,300
like, well, look, just like in 
your normal life. 

839
00:47:31,300 --> 00:47:33,900
You don't have to like everyone 
you interact with but we tend to

840
00:47:33,900 --> 00:47:36,700
say like look, you know, you 
live and Let Live I don't have 

841
00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:39,500
to like everyone I interact with
or everyone, I, whose path I 

842
00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:41,900
cross with but I need to find a 
way to live with them. 

843
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,400
And why don't we apply that 
logic to the to the 

844
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,800
International Space? 
You know, people will say, well 

845
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,000
that's naive. 
That's that, that's a, that's a,

846
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:55,100
that's the road to No, the road 
to Rune is pushing the most 

847
00:47:55,100 --> 00:47:57,800
powerful military in the world 
into conflict. 

848
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,800
That is a guaranteed road to 
ruin. 

849
00:48:00,300 --> 00:48:05,100
And so, you know, I it's we're 
in a precarious time right now 

850
00:48:05,100 --> 00:48:10,000
because of this stuff and, you 
know, I think the message and 

851
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,700
the topics were talking about 
here are of utmost importance 

852
00:48:12,700 --> 00:48:15,600
precisely for that reason, I 
love Brian. 

853
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,400
Kaplan's example, I, if I 
remember it correctly, it's so 

854
00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:25,000
you You start a new job and you 
walk into the office and you go 

855
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:27,100
up to everyone. 
No, just pull out a gun. 

856
00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:30,100
Just keep it at your side. 
And say anyone who screws with 

857
00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:32,500
me, you're going to be in a 
world of pain, just go around 

858
00:48:32,500 --> 00:48:35,000
and say that to everyone. 
Surely that's going to keep you 

859
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,200
really safe, you know? 
And everyone's going to like you

860
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,800
and respect you because you're 
really, you know, showing them 

861
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:43,400
how aggressive you can get or 
could maybe the exact opposite 

862
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:44,700
happened and everyone would 
hate. 

863
00:48:44,700 --> 00:48:48,000
You see you as a threat and want
you either gone or dead? 

864
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:52,000
It's like that is exactly. 
What happens when you put 

865
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:56,700
missiles in Turkey, to try to 
provoke the Soviets, or you 

866
00:48:56,700 --> 00:49:02,200
start sending javelins to the 
government in, in Ukraine and 

867
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,900
you expand NATO against James 
Baker's, promise to explicitly, 

868
00:49:06,100 --> 00:49:09,400
not expand NATO, and encircle 
Russia. 

869
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,500
After they just lost a ton of 
people in a world war so that 

870
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,800
that is so important and I did 
want to ask what are some 

871
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:19,900
examples of Industries in 
America. 

872
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:24,500
Gotta Wear a large percentage of
people worked in the past and 

873
00:49:24,500 --> 00:49:27,000
today we don't have as many 
because this could sort of 

874
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,400
service and example, of just 
because we have a lot of people 

875
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,600
working in this military 
industrial sector. 

876
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,600
Now means we can still have 
economic growth in the future 

877
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,900
without such a sector. 
What is an example in American 

878
00:49:38,900 --> 00:49:40,200
history? 
If there are any? 

879
00:49:40,300 --> 00:49:42,600
Yeah, yeah, there's plenty. 
I mean, one of them steel 

880
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:44,900
manufacturing. 
So at one point in time, there 

881
00:49:44,900 --> 00:49:47,900
is a significant portion of 
certain regions. 

882
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:53,400
So like the Rust Belt and For 
example, were involved in steel 

883
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,600
production and that went away 
Through Time, both due to 

884
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:04,200
Innovations in Technologies, 
globalization so international 

885
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,200
trade and so on. 
And, you know, there was a cost 

886
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,500
of transition. 
So if you look at a city like 

887
00:50:10,500 --> 00:50:13,400
Pittsburgh the Steel City, 
there's a reason it's called the

888
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:14,700
Steel City. 
There's a reason the football 

889
00:50:14,700 --> 00:50:17,700
teams called the Steelers. 
It's because steel dominated 

890
00:50:17,700 --> 00:50:20,700
that area. 
And so, when When the steel 

891
00:50:20,700 --> 00:50:23,700
industry was in Decline, 
Pittsburgh took a big hit and 

892
00:50:23,700 --> 00:50:29,600
for a while the city was in 
Decline but now Pittsburgh is a 

893
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:34,000
vibrant and Lively City. 
It focuses on technology, it 

894
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:37,600
focuses on health care and 
health Innovations. 

895
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:43,000
And so, that's one example 
manufacturing, you know, often 

896
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,100
times you hear people say like, 
well America doesn't make things

897
00:50:45,100 --> 00:50:47,700
any more America's they should 
manufacture more stuff. 

898
00:50:48,300 --> 00:50:50,800
The number we still do Extra 
stuff by the way. 

899
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:55,100
It's not as much as in the past 
and so that's okay too. 

900
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,800
Why don't we manufacturers much 
again, globalization and trade 

901
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:04,300
which is to my way of thinking a
good thing and productivity. 

902
00:51:04,500 --> 00:51:07,600
So due to increases in 
Machinery, we don't need as many

903
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:12,700
people involved in manufacturing
and from an economic standpoint,

904
00:51:12,700 --> 00:51:14,700
that is a good thing. 
I mean just do a simple thought 

905
00:51:14,700 --> 00:51:17,600
experiment, right? 
Like we have backhoes to dig 

906
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:19,800
ditches. 
So their backhoes dig ditches. 

907
00:51:19,900 --> 00:51:22,100
Has and you need one person to 
drive the backhoe. 

908
00:51:22,300 --> 00:51:26,200
You could say, like I want to 
create jobs, I'm going to ban 

909
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:31,300
backhoes and all ditches must be
Doug using teaspoons from now on

910
00:51:31,900 --> 00:51:34,900
and then you could have 500 
people digging a ditch with 

911
00:51:34,900 --> 00:51:39,200
teaspoons that would create 500 
jobs but it wouldn't create 

912
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:44,300
wealth wealth creation is using 
scarce resources to produce 

913
00:51:44,300 --> 00:51:48,500
things, people value that then 
frees up additional resources to

914
00:51:48,500 --> 00:51:51,100
do other things. 
So By having the back code that 

915
00:51:51,100 --> 00:51:54,900
only requires one driver. 
I can still get the ditch and it

916
00:51:54,900 --> 00:51:56,600
frees up. 
All the other laborers that 

917
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,400
would have been required to use 
shovels and they can do other 

918
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:01,600
things. 
And so given that we live in a 

919
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:05,400
world of scarcity, and we have 
unlimited wants, meaning human 

920
00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,000
beings. 
There's always new jobs to be 

921
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,900
had. 
There's always new things to be 

922
00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:13,600
done. 
And so, that's the way I think 

923
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:17,000
about the nature of economic 
activity and really the nature 

924
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:20,700
of wealth creation. 
One of the economic issues we 

925
00:52:20,700 --> 00:52:25,600
face when dealing with 
politicians or hate to use the 

926
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:27,200
term. 
Bureaucratic Feels Like Straw 

927
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:32,900
Manning, but members of the 
military industrial economy is 

928
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:37,000
the assumption that look, I work
in a totally different sector. 

929
00:52:37,100 --> 00:52:40,100
They work in this sector so they
probably know what they're 

930
00:52:40,100 --> 00:52:43,100
talking about. 
So when Marco Rubio and Lindsey 

931
00:52:43,100 --> 00:52:46,700
Graham, I mean two sources are 
telling me that Russia and China

932
00:52:46,700 --> 00:52:49,900
are people we need to, you know,
start Dealing with and getting 

933
00:52:49,900 --> 00:52:52,900
heavy handed with. 
I should trust them and it's not

934
00:52:52,908 --> 00:52:55,800
like, you know, we found that 
there, you know, heavily 

935
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,300
invested in, right? 
The honor Northrop Grumman so 

936
00:52:58,300 --> 00:52:59,700
therefore they don't have a real
interest. 

937
00:52:59,700 --> 00:53:03,200
However, the economist 
appreciates the concept of 

938
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,700
psychic profit meaning that all 
of these people are still 

939
00:53:06,700 --> 00:53:09,000
benefiting the second. 
They get in front of a 

940
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:13,200
microphone and they get another 
election and they have all these

941
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:17,200
people cheering their name, what
is psychic profit? 

942
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,000
And what are some lessons we can
appreciate. 

943
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,300
You ain't about it when trying 
to understand the potential 

944
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,700
ulterior motives for mode, for 
politicians trying to get us 

945
00:53:25,700 --> 00:53:28,800
into war. 
Yeah, so the concept of psychic 

946
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:34,200
profit the best, kind of 
exposition if listeners are 

947
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,200
interested in reading more as 
Murray rothbard man, economy and

948
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:38,700
state. 
He talks about this idea of 

949
00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:40,300
psychic profit but really what 
it is. 

950
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:42,500
I mean other people have talked 
about it too but I think it's a 

951
00:53:42,508 --> 00:53:45,400
very nice Exposition. 
He offers really what it is. 

952
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:48,300
Is you know, a lot of people 
again think of profit like early

953
00:53:48,300 --> 00:53:50,400
return our call Cost. 
We said monetary outlays. 

954
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,900
They think of profit is like 
money in the bank and that is 

955
00:53:54,500 --> 00:53:56,600
certainly one manifestation of 
profit. 

956
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:02,300
If your, if your revenues exceed
your costs but psychic profit is

957
00:54:02,300 --> 00:54:06,200
the idea that you and I are 
economic actors in general can 

958
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,900
benefit, we can gain 
satisfaction from doing things, 

959
00:54:09,900 --> 00:54:13,600
which don't necessarily show up 
in monetary outlays. 

960
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:15,700
They don't necessarily show up 
in a balance sheet. 

961
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,600
So, for a politician, that might
be something like, Effects, 

962
00:54:19,900 --> 00:54:21,600
right? 
If you have a, you want to have 

963
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,100
a legacy for being, a good 
leader, in a strong leader. 

964
00:54:24,900 --> 00:54:28,200
That's, that's, that's a 
reputation effect, it's not a 

965
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:32,100
concrete thing that it shows up 
in the bank account per se. 

966
00:54:32,900 --> 00:54:36,000
So why does that matter? 
Well, again, I think it comes, 

967
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,300
that's part of it, but I think 
it's a lot of this going back to

968
00:54:38,308 --> 00:54:41,700
your question about about 
politicians talking about 

969
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:45,700
foreign threats, goes back to 
just the logic of politics and 

970
00:54:45,700 --> 00:54:48,800
get an electoral politics and 
keeping people in check. 

971
00:54:48,900 --> 00:54:51,900
Check. 
And one of the best ways to keep

972
00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:55,600
the citizenry citizenry in. 
Check is to instill fear in 

973
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,100
them. 
There's, there's hobgoblins 

974
00:54:59,100 --> 00:55:02,600
around every corner and we are 
the only people that can protect

975
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,100
you from them. 
And again, we don't need to go 

976
00:55:05,100 --> 00:55:07,400
back that far. 
We could go back far in history 

977
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,100
but just go back to 9/11, all 
right? 

978
00:55:10,100 --> 00:55:13,200
And there's a political 
Scientist by the name of John 

979
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,400
Mueller and he did wonderful 
work on the nature of the war on

980
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,400
terror, from a variety of 
perspectives. 

981
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,100
And one of the Things he pointed
out just looking at statistics 

982
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:26,400
was the likelihood of an 
American being killed in a 

983
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:30,200
terrorist attack is miniscule. 
So you have a much higher 

984
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,400
likelihood of being killed, you 
know driving a car, getting a 

985
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:35,500
deer running across the street. 
While you're driving a car. 

986
00:55:35,500 --> 00:55:38,400
Getting hit by lightning 
drowning in a bathtub things 

987
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,100
that we take for granted on 
daily basis. 

988
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,600
We don't think twice about so he
was trying to get us to realize 

989
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,500
the threat was minimal but he 
also has other books where he 

990
00:55:48,508 --> 00:55:50,800
talks About and one books called
overblown. 

991
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:53,200
He talks about to terrorism 
industry and he says the 

992
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,800
terrorism in distress, the 
politicians, that's members of 

993
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:57,200
the media. 
That's the private sector, 

994
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,600
Consultants. 
They all have an incentive to 

995
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,400
overstate the threat. 
Why do they overstate the 

996
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:05,400
threat? 
Because the industry thrives on 

997
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,100
there, being a threat if there's
no terrorist threat, there's no 

998
00:56:08,100 --> 00:56:10,600
terrorist industry because who's
going to pay for a non threat 

999
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:14,600
just like most people don't pay 
for, you know, a consulting firm

1000
00:56:14,700 --> 00:56:18,000
when they worry about deer 
running across the street. 

1001
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:20,600
Happens. 
It's terrible when it happens 

1002
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:22,800
and people are harmed by it, but
it's a part of life. 

1003
00:56:23,500 --> 00:56:27,900
And so that's why I think most 
politicians do it because by 

1004
00:56:27,900 --> 00:56:33,600
doing it, they can secure more 
resources, more control, and 

1005
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,600
people fall in line. 
And then, once you anyone, who 

1006
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:38,900
tries to push back in politics, 
and this is one of the great 

1007
00:56:38,900 --> 00:56:41,900
challenges you then get 
pigeonholed as being soft and 

1008
00:56:41,900 --> 00:56:43,500
not caring about security and 
Liberties. 

1009
00:56:43,500 --> 00:56:48,100
Like, I am concerned for the 
people safety, and my opponent 

1010
00:56:48,100 --> 00:56:50,800
is wish She washe and week and 
they are okay with the 

1011
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,000
terrorists taking over. 
It's like, what are you talking 

1012
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:54,800
about? 
You know, this just isn't a 

1013
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:56,900
threat to worry about. 
So you came and have those 

1014
00:56:56,900 --> 00:56:58,900
conversations which is really 
troubling. 

1015
00:57:00,100 --> 00:57:05,000
I had once asked, what one of my
Jewish friends, I had said. 

1016
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,500
So you and I went to Temple for 
13 years. 

1017
00:57:07,500 --> 00:57:10,300
We were raised Jewish. 
And we're always told about the 

1018
00:57:10,300 --> 00:57:14,700
horrors of anti-Semitism and in 
20-something years have neither 

1019
00:57:14,700 --> 00:57:18,100
of us have faced, you know, any 
terrible anti-Semitism that 

1020
00:57:18,100 --> 00:57:20,000
we're always. 
Told us lurking around the 

1021
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:21,500
corner, I asked him, what do you
think? 

1022
00:57:21,500 --> 00:57:26,000
This is he goes now Zionism 
thrives on Jewish and security 

1023
00:57:26,500 --> 00:57:30,500
and in that moment I go well you
know what that is so interesting

1024
00:57:30,700 --> 00:57:34,600
that there is a power, grab to 
be had the more insecure. 

1025
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:38,600
This organization is the more 
organizations, like the ADL are 

1026
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:42,700
going to get attention. 
And you see that in every single

1027
00:57:42,700 --> 00:57:46,000
aspect of society, where the 
leaders have become now, a 

1028
00:57:46,008 --> 00:57:50,900
terrible exploiters, I've really
enjoyed this conversation. 

1029
00:57:50,900 --> 00:57:52,700
You have time for three more 
questions. 

1030
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:53,700
Sure. 
Yeah. 

1031
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:59,100
Now America was in a Great 
Depression then there was a 

1032
00:57:59,100 --> 00:58:02,300
second world war and then there 
was no longer a depression 

1033
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,500
therefore WWII got America out 
of the Great Depression. 

1034
00:58:05,700 --> 00:58:07,100
What if anything is wrong with 
that? 

1035
00:58:07,300 --> 00:58:11,700
Yeah, so so the this is a story 
that is widely accepted. 

1036
00:58:11,700 --> 00:58:15,300
It's taught in schools. 
Many people believe it. 

1037
00:58:15,300 --> 00:58:18,800
The idea that that World War Two
was the driving force. 

1038
00:58:18,900 --> 00:58:23,000
Behind getting the United States
economy out of the the the 

1039
00:58:23,000 --> 00:58:26,700
downturn it was stuck in the 
wake of the Great Depression and

1040
00:58:26,900 --> 00:58:31,200
the the best work on this from 
from, from my perspective, is by

1041
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,600
an economic historian by the 
name of Robert Hicks and Robert 

1042
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:38,200
Higgs wrote a series of papers 
and I'll highlight 14. 

1043
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:40,500
Now, in the what I'm talking, I 
forget the exact name but it 

1044
00:58:40,500 --> 00:58:47,400
came out in the early 90s and 
what Higgs did is he reexamined 

1045
00:58:47,700 --> 00:58:54,600
the data. 
On the war and some of the 

1046
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:58,000
common claims. 
So what are the common claims it

1047
00:58:58,300 --> 00:59:01,300
increased employment? 
The war being, it increased 

1048
00:59:01,300 --> 00:59:07,100
employment it led to more output
and it increased consumer 

1049
00:59:07,100 --> 00:59:09,700
spending. 
So Higgs is great on this, he 

1050
00:59:09,700 --> 00:59:12,800
takes the data is given and he 
says, well let's unpack this 

1051
00:59:13,100 --> 00:59:16,600
using economics. 
So let's start with output. 

1052
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:18,500
So output went up, of course, it
went up. 

1053
00:59:18,500 --> 00:59:20,900
Why did it go up? 
Because the government made more

1054
00:59:20,900 --> 00:59:23,200
stuff, that's the logical 
outcome. 

1055
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:26,000
If you spend more money on 
making tanks, you're gonna get 

1056
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:29,300
more output. 
But wait, a second Pig, says, 

1057
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:33,500
something's amiss. 
When we talk about output for 

1058
00:59:33,500 --> 00:59:37,000
human well-being, we think we 
talked about things that people 

1059
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,800
value, not just production for 
Productions sake. 

1060
00:59:40,900 --> 00:59:42,500
So then this goes back to what 
you and I are timeout. 

1061
00:59:42,500 --> 00:59:44,900
Earlier a dollar is not a dollar
making. 

1062
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:48,500
Drone is not the same as making 
an iPad, that allows someone to 

1063
00:59:48,500 --> 00:59:50,300
be more efficient in the private
sector. 

1064
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,200
It's true that both of those 
things are output and the 

1065
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:56,900
problem with aggregate output 
measures gross national product.

1066
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,000
For instance, is that it doesn't
differentiate between 

1067
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,800
value-added output and output. 
That's produced for output sake,

1068
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:08,100
the same mistake that economists
made with the Soviet Union that 

1069
01:00:08,100 --> 01:00:10,700
what was the mistake they made a
few look like Paul samuelson's 

1070
01:00:10,700 --> 01:00:13,900
textbook, he is GDP gross, 
domestic product figures. 

1071
01:00:13,900 --> 01:00:16,900
He's like Soviet Yoon's could 
have got a pet surpass. 

1072
01:00:17,100 --> 01:00:20,300
The capitalist systems, what was
the mistake? 

1073
01:00:20,300 --> 01:00:23,100
Well, there's a small number of 
economists warn Nutter. 

1074
01:00:23,500 --> 01:00:26,400
Paul Craig Roberts Murray 
rothbard, it said wait a second,

1075
01:00:26,500 --> 01:00:30,100
something's not right here. 
How can it be that you're 

1076
01:00:30,100 --> 01:00:33,200
claiming that the Soviet Union 
is going gangbusters with growth

1077
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,800
but people are waiting in line 
for basic items like bread and 

1078
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,200
meat things that we take for 
granted in developed and Wealthy

1079
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:42,400
societies. 
Well, because what we're 

1080
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,500
aggregate figures at counting in
addition, Some of them being 

1081
01:00:45,500 --> 01:00:48,200
made up whole things like 
military, expenditures 

1082
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:51,900
infrastructure, and so on those 
things don't improve human 

1083
01:00:51,900 --> 01:00:55,800
well-being. 
They don't improve the true 

1084
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,500
genuine wealth of the private 
citizenry. 

1085
01:00:58,500 --> 01:01:01,500
So that's number one. 
Big says look when you pull out 

1086
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:04,000
military spending which is what 
he does of those aggregate 

1087
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,300
figures, it didn't go up, it 
actually went down. 

1088
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,300
Okay, so that's myth. 
Number one, the idea that 

1089
01:01:10,300 --> 01:01:14,000
somehow the war increased output
it didn't it increased output. 

1090
01:01:14,100 --> 01:01:16,200
Sure. 
But it increased output in areas

1091
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:17,900
that didn't improve the 
well-being of people. 

1092
01:01:18,100 --> 01:01:21,500
Number two is labor. 
So it increased or excuse me, 

1093
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,000
increased employment or or 
decrease unemployment. 

1094
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:26,600
That's the second kind of common
claim. 

1095
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:30,800
Hague says, look what was going 
on during the war conscription 

1096
01:01:31,500 --> 01:01:35,700
and redirection of private 
people into war production. 

1097
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:39,700
So if government says, you know,
we're going to hire people to 

1098
01:01:39,700 --> 01:01:42,700
make typewriters and then it 
starts spending a lot of money, 

1099
01:01:42,700 --> 01:01:45,400
hiring people making typewriters
and then more people Both start 

1100
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:48,600
working on typewriters, it would
be weird to call that some glue,

1101
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:51,200
some major success. 
It's like government has distort

1102
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:54,100
spent money on distorting 
things, of course you're gonna 

1103
01:01:54,100 --> 01:01:55,600
get more outcome. 
Somewhat is Higgs. 

1104
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,500
Do he looks at Labor Statistics 
and he pulls out all the 

1105
01:01:59,500 --> 01:02:02,500
military people involved in. 
What do you see during an actual

1106
01:02:02,500 --> 01:02:07,000
private employment decreases? 
Then you get consumer spending 

1107
01:02:07,500 --> 01:02:09,800
and so what is Higgs do? 
He says well you need to adjust 

1108
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,400
for inflation because a dollar 
is not a dollar when the 

1109
01:02:12,400 --> 01:02:13,700
government is running the 
printing. 

1110
01:02:13,700 --> 01:02:18,200
Press he had He controls for 
What's called the inflation 

1111
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,400
deflator. 
So basically you're turning 

1112
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:24,000
nominal money into real income 
by controlling for inflation. 

1113
01:02:24,700 --> 01:02:28,300
The purchasing power of a dollar
in the face of inflation and 

1114
01:02:28,300 --> 01:02:30,600
consumer purchasing power didn't
increase. 

1115
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,900
So there you have it. 
He's using the data itself 

1116
01:02:33,900 --> 01:02:35,900
combined with the economic way 
of thinking that we've been 

1117
01:02:35,900 --> 01:02:38,800
discussing to demonstrate that, 
it wasn't the case that it 

1118
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:43,900
increased consumer well-being, 
the the well-being of concern of

1119
01:02:43,900 --> 01:02:47,400
private consumers in I could hug
says look, you had a centrally 

1120
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:49,500
planned economy you had 
rationing. 

1121
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:53,900
You had basic items that people 
previously were able to get 

1122
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:58,500
nylon rubber. 
They couldn't get, they weren't 

1123
01:02:58,500 --> 01:03:01,300
coffee coffee grounds, lots of 
things they were and they were 

1124
01:03:01,300 --> 01:03:03,000
encouraged. 
As we were talking about earlier

1125
01:03:03,300 --> 01:03:08,700
to impoverish themselves. 
Don't take trips, don't buy 

1126
01:03:08,700 --> 01:03:09,600
stuff. 
You don't need. 

1127
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:12,800
Eat all the food on your plate. 
Grow your own food. 

1128
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:16,600
These are all examples. 
Bowls of not wealth. 

1129
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,900
It is an example of the 
destruction of wealth of making 

1130
01:03:19,900 --> 01:03:24,400
people poorer, and it's quite a 
powerful narrative that he tells

1131
01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:30,200
and I find it quite convincing. 
One of the arguments against a 

1132
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:33,500
lot of what you're advocating 
is, what this does. 

1133
01:03:33,500 --> 01:03:37,000
Is it leads to hoarding hoarding
materials. 

1134
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:40,500
Hoarding money is really bad for
an economy. 

1135
01:03:40,700 --> 01:03:43,300
This is another word. 
This is the slander word for 

1136
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,700
savings. 
What are the potential benefits 

1137
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:51,100
of saving money or postponing 
consumption of resources in an 

1138
01:03:51,100 --> 01:03:52,800
economy? 
Yeah. 

1139
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,700
Well the first of it appear, Lee
Private level is its people's 

1140
01:03:55,700 --> 01:03:58,000
resources. 
So if they If they want to, if 

1141
01:03:58,000 --> 01:04:02,200
they want to forego consumption.
Now in order to have money for 

1142
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:05,300
consumption in the future, 
that's that's living in a 

1143
01:04:05,300 --> 01:04:09,000
society where people are free 
and and they control resources. 

1144
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:12,200
That's number one. 
But on top of that, you know, 

1145
01:04:12,500 --> 01:04:16,700
people view savings, as you put 
a quite correctly often times is

1146
01:04:16,700 --> 01:04:19,000
like I don't know if they think 
it's like buried under someone's

1147
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:23,500
mattress or whatever. 
What happens with with savings? 

1148
01:04:23,500 --> 01:04:27,900
Well, it gets invested that 
those resources get Invested. 

1149
01:04:27,900 --> 01:04:32,100
And in order to grow an economy 
in order to become wealthy, you 

1150
01:04:32,100 --> 01:04:35,700
have to forego consumption. 
You have to invest in What's 

1151
01:04:35,700 --> 01:04:37,500
called the structure of 
production, lengthening the 

1152
01:04:37,500 --> 01:04:40,500
structure of production. 
In other words, you know, go 

1153
01:04:40,500 --> 01:04:43,700
back to like a very rudimentary 
thought experiment, you're on an

1154
01:04:43,700 --> 01:04:47,000
island by yourself. 
You could fish with your hands 

1155
01:04:47,200 --> 01:04:50,200
and let's say you could catch 
five fish during the day because

1156
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:54,400
fish are difficult to catch with
your hands or you could forego 

1157
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:58,200
consumption for a day. 
So you could not The fish, but 

1158
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,300
you could work instead on 
spending your time on investing 

1159
01:05:01,300 --> 01:05:02,600
in capital. 
What could you do? 

1160
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:06,100
You're sewing a net, right? 
It take you a day to so Annette 

1161
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:09,400
and then tomorrow you can catch 
10 fish with the net. 

1162
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:13,200
So you for you for went 
consuming today, you invested 

1163
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:15,700
those resources and lengthening 
the structure production and you

1164
01:05:15,700 --> 01:05:17,300
become more productive in the 
future. 

1165
01:05:17,700 --> 01:05:22,200
That is what drives development 
tied up in that, of course, if 

1166
01:05:22,200 --> 01:05:25,300
things like entrepreneurship, 
so, entrepreneurship is the 

1167
01:05:25,300 --> 01:05:27,500
alertness to profit 
opportunities, but, You need 

1168
01:05:27,500 --> 01:05:30,400
resources to leverage that 
alertness. 

1169
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:33,100
So I have an idea that I think 
will generate some new 

1170
01:05:33,100 --> 01:05:36,400
innovation but I need resources.
Where do those resources come 

1171
01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:40,800
from people saving. 
And so the idea that somehow 

1172
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:47,100
saving is a bad or it harms, the
economy is a very peculiar view 

1173
01:05:47,100 --> 01:05:50,800
of what's happening. 
And certainly, I think neglects 

1174
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:54,900
the fact that in order to extend
the structure of production and 

1175
01:05:54,900 --> 01:05:58,500
to become wealthier Through 
Time, Foregoing consumption is 

1176
01:05:58,500 --> 01:06:01,300
necessary. 
Final question. 

1177
01:06:01,300 --> 01:06:05,600
Thank you so much for your time.
By the way, joined by Professor 

1178
01:06:05,700 --> 01:06:09,500
Chris, coin of George Mason 
University author of in search 

1179
01:06:09,500 --> 01:06:13,000
of monsters to destroy as well 
as manufacturing. 

1180
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,600
Militarism US Government 
propaganda in the war on terror.

1181
01:06:17,100 --> 01:06:20,800
A lot of people, even people who
don't agree with us, 

1182
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:23,900
economically are familiar with 
the concept of Adam Smith's 

1183
01:06:23,900 --> 01:06:27,000
invisible hand. 
Can you please explain what the 

1184
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:31,300
Implications are of the 
Invisible Hand and why it's 

1185
01:06:31,300 --> 01:06:33,100
important. 
Sure. 

1186
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:36,900
So the Invisible Hand 
interestingly Smith uses the 

1187
01:06:36,900 --> 01:06:39,500
term invisible hand once in The 
Wealth of Nations and then once 

1188
01:06:39,500 --> 01:06:40,700
in the theory of moral 
sentiments. 

1189
01:06:40,700 --> 01:06:44,500
So he's become known for this 
and it's a term that gets used a

1190
01:06:44,508 --> 01:06:48,200
lot, but it's not like Central 
to the his enormous books. 

1191
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:50,700
They're quite thick and dense 
and filled with insights. 

1192
01:06:50,700 --> 01:06:53,800
But in any case, you know, 
people typically, when they use 

1193
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:57,100
the term, invisible hand, what 
they mean are these? 

1194
01:06:57,200 --> 01:06:59,300
Self ordering processes of 
markets. 

1195
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:03,500
And so what they'll often times 
say is markets look like, or or 

1196
01:07:03,500 --> 01:07:07,600
act as if they're Guided by an 
invisible hand, that something 

1197
01:07:07,600 --> 01:07:11,700
that they're being controlled to
generate an orderly outcome. 

1198
01:07:13,000 --> 01:07:15,700
So that's fine. 
I think it's problematic from 

1199
01:07:15,700 --> 01:07:20,400
the standpoint that no we just 
need to be careful not to fall 

1200
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:25,100
prey to the idea that someone 
controls the economy because no 

1201
01:07:25,100 --> 01:07:27,800
one controls it. 
And that's why The economy 

1202
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:31,900
market economies are desirable 
and so just to say a little bit 

1203
01:07:31,900 --> 01:07:35,400
more briefly markets number one 
or interactions between human 

1204
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:37,200
beings. 
There's buyers and their 

1205
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:39,400
Cellars. 
So the idea that markets do 

1206
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:42,200
anything is a misnomer to start 
with markets, don't do anything,

1207
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:46,300
because markets don't exist 
absent individuals, interacting 

1208
01:07:46,300 --> 01:07:48,500
with each other. 
Any time you mess with the 

1209
01:07:48,508 --> 01:07:50,500
market, you're messing with 
human beings peacefully 

1210
01:07:50,500 --> 01:07:52,000
interacting with other human 
beings. 

1211
01:07:52,100 --> 01:07:54,400
That's the first thing. 
So then, why do we have 

1212
01:07:54,400 --> 01:07:57,400
confidence in markets? 
Well, because there's Is in 

1213
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:01,800
place, private property rights, 
I have ownership over my person 

1214
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:05,200
and over some resources and so 
do you without that, of course, 

1215
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:07,500
you can't have the exchange, 
because you can't trade, 

1216
01:08:07,500 --> 01:08:15,800
something you don't own, and so 
exchange requires either some 

1217
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:17,899
kind of property, right, 
recognition. 

1218
01:08:17,899 --> 01:08:21,700
That's a norm that is a Norms, a
set of traditions or beliefs. 

1219
01:08:21,700 --> 01:08:24,100
It doesn't have to be formally 
enforced, although it can be, 

1220
01:08:24,100 --> 01:08:27,200
you can have government 
enforced, property rights in All

1221
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:31,000
and empirically, they do that in
some cases but they don't have 

1222
01:08:31,000 --> 01:08:32,899
to be. 
And so you need those property 

1223
01:08:32,899 --> 01:08:35,100
rights. 
Then what happens then price is 

1224
01:08:35,100 --> 01:08:38,700
emerge through exchange with a 
monetary unit, those prices 

1225
01:08:38,700 --> 01:08:41,700
reflect scarcities that allows 
us to judge how to best. 

1226
01:08:41,700 --> 01:08:46,100
Use, scarce resources, should I 
use a scarce resource to make a 

1227
01:08:46,100 --> 01:08:50,899
phone or an iPad or computer or 
to leave the mitel that's an 

1228
01:08:50,899 --> 01:08:53,800
option as well? 
Well, I have to gauge what the 

1229
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:57,700
expected value of them and so I 
purchased resources Combining 

1230
01:08:57,700 --> 01:08:59,200
together. 
And then how do you judge? 

1231
01:08:59,200 --> 01:09:03,700
Whether you have made the 
correct forecast, profit loss in

1232
01:09:03,700 --> 01:09:06,399
a market, that's what profit and
loss does a profit indicates 

1233
01:09:06,399 --> 01:09:09,600
that you have produced things. 
That consumers value a loss 

1234
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:13,399
indicates that you have not and 
it's a incentive to stop doing 

1235
01:09:13,399 --> 01:09:16,399
that. 
So what people refer to how 

1236
01:09:16,399 --> 01:09:19,500
often times is the Invisible, 
Hand is this process because 

1237
01:09:19,500 --> 01:09:25,300
what happens in this process is 
order, emerges, order emerges, 

1238
01:09:25,300 --> 01:09:28,800
not through anyone's centrally. 
Planning it not through anyone, 

1239
01:09:28,800 --> 01:09:32,700
centrally controlling it, but 
through human beings pursuing, 

1240
01:09:32,700 --> 01:09:35,000
their own diverse ends 
peacefully, interacting with 

1241
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:37,100
other people and coordinating 
with them. 

1242
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:43,000
And it's a beautiful thing. 
Because when we step back and 

1243
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:46,100
appreciate it, which we often 
don't, we typically take it for 

1244
01:09:46,100 --> 01:09:48,500
granted. 
We say like we point out the bad

1245
01:09:48,500 --> 01:09:51,399
stuff or things that we think 
are bad things and we take for 

1246
01:09:51,399 --> 01:09:55,400
granted the fact that, you know,
we're able to get goods and 

1247
01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:59,900
services that People in the past
could only dream of and were 

1248
01:09:59,900 --> 01:10:03,400
able to get them relatively 
quickly and we are able to 

1249
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:05,800
Outsource almost all aspects of 
Our Lives. 

1250
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:10,600
We're able to have chefs, we're 
able to have access to medical 

1251
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:14,200
professionals. 
We're able to consume artwork 

1252
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:17,200
from around the world, and music
from around the world, and 

1253
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:20,200
entertainment from around the 
world, sitting at home. 

1254
01:10:21,100 --> 01:10:24,100
And those are all wonderful and 
beautiful things and they are 

1255
01:10:24,100 --> 01:10:26,500
the source of human, creativity 
and Ingenuity. 

1256
01:10:26,700 --> 01:10:31,500
And it is ultimately, the power 
of markets is they enable human 

1257
01:10:31,500 --> 01:10:33,600
beings to unleash, their 
creativity. 

1258
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:38,500
They enabled human beings to 
truly develop, you know, there's

1259
01:10:38,500 --> 01:10:40,700
a tendency to view development 
to some outcome. 

1260
01:10:40,700 --> 01:10:44,600
Like GDP measures our per capita
income, this goes back to your 

1261
01:10:44,800 --> 01:10:46,600
good question before about 
psychic income. 

1262
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:50,000
Let's take a broader view of 
development development is doing

1263
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:54,400
what you want to do. 
Maybe your goal isn't to earn as

1264
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:58,100
much monetary income as you can.
Perhaps, you have a Offer for a 

1265
01:10:58,100 --> 01:11:01,000
hundred thousand dollars, but 
you except the one for 75,000 

1266
01:11:01,000 --> 01:11:03,100
dollars and I say, well, that's 
crazy. 

1267
01:11:03,100 --> 01:11:04,200
I can't believe you gave the 
money. 

1268
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:07,300
You say no, actually, I can 
because I made the choice. 

1269
01:11:07,300 --> 01:11:09,100
Why? 
Because of psychic income 

1270
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:13,100
because the seventy five 
thousand dollar job brought you 

1271
01:11:13,100 --> 01:11:15,900
additional satisfaction. 
Maybe it was geographic 

1272
01:11:15,900 --> 01:11:19,100
location. 
Maybe it was the pride in the 

1273
01:11:19,100 --> 01:11:21,800
work that you valued the work 
you'd be doing even though your 

1274
01:11:21,800 --> 01:11:24,900
monetary salaries lower could be
a whole host of different 

1275
01:11:24,900 --> 01:11:26,300
things, maybe you like the 
people more? 

1276
01:11:26,500 --> 01:11:30,000
You like the the the mission of 
the organization, it can be a 

1277
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:34,000
whole host of things. 
And that is the beauty and power

1278
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:36,500
of markets. 
In terms of allowing people to 

1279
01:11:36,700 --> 01:11:41,200
flex their muscles of 
creativity, and true diversity. 

1280
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:44,000
Because to the extent, each of 
us is different. 

1281
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:47,200
And each of us views the world 
differently, markets and power 

1282
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:50,800
people to both nourish that 
diversity, but to act upon it, 

1283
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:52,700
as well. 
And that's just a few of the 

1284
01:11:52,700 --> 01:11:57,000
reasons that I find markets so 
attractive as a way of 

1285
01:11:57,700 --> 01:12:01,200
Organizing social interactions 
between people. 

1286
01:12:02,300 --> 01:12:05,400
I really appreciate that answer,
just because I had always seen 

1287
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:07,700
it. 
I'd previously seen the world as

1288
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:09,200
well. 
When you do something, you could

1289
01:12:09,200 --> 01:12:12,100
either do it for yourself or you
could do it for the greater 

1290
01:12:12,100 --> 01:12:13,500
good. 
What Smith does is? 

1291
01:12:13,500 --> 01:12:17,100
He shows that no such dichotomy.
What will exist? 

1292
01:12:17,100 --> 01:12:20,900
So long as you're engaged in 
voluntary exchanges with, with 

1293
01:12:20,900 --> 01:12:23,300
other people. 
So I really appreciate you 

1294
01:12:24,000 --> 01:12:27,000
bringing some research and 
background into that. 

1295
01:12:27,300 --> 01:12:31,500
Check out the links in the 
description will take you to dr.

1296
01:12:31,500 --> 01:12:36,300
Coins. 
Website CC o YN e.com again the 

1297
01:12:36,300 --> 01:12:38,600
book is manufacturing 
militarism. 

1298
01:12:38,600 --> 01:12:40,800
U.s. propaganda in the war on 
terror. 

1299
01:12:41,100 --> 01:12:44,200
I know you have another book on 
tyranny in the police state, but

1300
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:46,500
I don't see it on your website. 
What is that one called? 

1301
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:48,900
Yeah, that's called tyranny, 
comes home. 

1302
01:12:49,000 --> 01:12:52,300
It's under its on under another 
tab on their tyranny comes home.

1303
01:12:52,300 --> 01:12:55,400
The the domestic fate of u.s. 
militarism and that, that is 

1304
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:58,700
about how intervening abroad. 
You know, a lot of people act, 

1305
01:12:58,700 --> 01:13:00,900
like intervening abroad, 
protects Liberties and freedoms 

1306
01:13:00,900 --> 01:13:04,300
at home. 
They become integrated into 

1307
01:13:04,300 --> 01:13:06,200
American life. 
This goes back to your wonderful

1308
01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:08,600
question before about the 
culture, the domestic culture 

1309
01:13:08,900 --> 01:13:11,400
and you see things like the 
militarization of police, the 

1310
01:13:11,400 --> 01:13:15,100
surveillance State, all of those
things started abroad, and 

1311
01:13:15,100 --> 01:13:18,000
slowly integrate it into 
domestic life. 

1312
01:13:18,500 --> 01:13:21,500
And in the process eroded 
Liberties and freedoms and 

1313
01:13:21,500 --> 01:13:24,400
continue to do. 
So, thanks to everyone for 

1314
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:27,200
watching Keith and I don't write
on anyone and the libertarian 

1315
01:13:27,200 --> 01:13:29,100
Institute dr. 
Coin thanks so much for your 

1316
01:13:29,100 --> 01:13:30,100
time. 
Thank you again. 

1317
01:13:30,100 --> 01:13:30,500
Keith