1 00:00:00,700 --> 00:00:03,700 The murder of one person is called unrighteous and incurs 2 00:00:03,700 --> 00:00:06,100 one death penalty. Following this argument. 3 00:00:06,100 --> 00:00:10,000 The murder of 10 persons will be 10 times as unrighteous and 4 00:00:10,100 --> 00:00:11,900 there should be 10 death penalty's. 5 00:00:11,900 --> 00:00:15,600 The murder of 100 persons will be 100 times as unrighteous, and 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,600 there should be a hundred death penalties. 7 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,400 All the gentlemen of the world know that they should condemn 8 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:21,900 these things calling them on righteous. 9 00:00:22,100 --> 00:00:25,000 But when it comes to the great unrighteousness of States 10 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,900 attacking States, they do not know they should condemn it on 11 00:00:27,900 --> 00:00:29,600 the contrary. They applauded it. 12 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,400 Calling it. Just welcome to Keith's, my 13 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,200 don't tread on anyone. And the libertarian Institute 14 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,500 today. I have David Swanson author of 15 00:00:36,500 --> 00:00:39,400 leaving WWII behind. He's an author activist 16 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,000 journalist and radio host. He is the executive director of 17 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,100 world Beyond war and campaign coordinator for 18 00:00:46,100 --> 00:00:49,800 rootsaction.org., Mr. Swanson. Thank you so much for your time 19 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:51,900 today. Very glad to be here. 20 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,700 Very often people will say that everyone's anti-war. 21 00:00:56,900 --> 00:01:00,400 We some of us who prefer an interventionist policy. 22 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,900 See this as a verbing, a bigger war that would arise. 23 00:01:03,900 --> 00:01:05,400 If we stood back and did nothing. 24 00:01:05,700 --> 00:01:08,000 What is it mean to you to be anti-war? 25 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,800 Well, in terms of that quote and statistics, you opened with, I 26 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:18,300 think taking War seriously would mean, the exact opposite of 27 00:01:18,300 --> 00:01:20,900 killing ten people. If the war killed 10 people or 28 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,800 in the case of World War 2, killing. 60, 70 million people. 29 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,600 If the war killed, 70, very quickly. 30 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,500 You come to realize that an eye for an eye. 31 00:01:28,500 --> 00:01:32,700 Makes the world blind, but I think taking very seriously, the 32 00:01:32,700 --> 00:01:36,700 crime of war, the crime of big Wars and small Wars. 33 00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:41,100 As either way much larger than the crime of individual murder, 34 00:01:41,500 --> 00:01:45,300 is exactly what's needed, or were headed for catastrophe. 35 00:01:45,300 --> 00:01:47,600 We're headed for nuclear catastrophe, climate 36 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,700 catastrophe, and of course the budget catastrophe through which 37 00:01:51,700 --> 00:01:55,600 war actually, Kills, vastly more people through the diversion of 38 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,400 resources into it. Then, through the violence of 39 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:02,600 the wars thus far, at least until we get to bigger or 40 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:08,000 nuclear Wars. So this this idea that you can 41 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,700 fend off larger Wars by having smaller Wars. 42 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,500 I haven't seen any evidence for that. 43 00:02:14,900 --> 00:02:17,800 I mean, since Eisenhower, figured out how you could 44 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,600 overthrow governments with the CIA instead of Wars, we've seen 45 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,300 Back. We've seen these smaller actions 46 00:02:25,300 --> 00:02:28,600 result in. Larger actions Professor David 47 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,900 Vine from American University last year put out a book called 48 00:02:31,900 --> 00:02:36,500 the US state that the United States of War looking at foreign 49 00:02:36,500 --> 00:02:40,100 military bases and finding that where you put them you get more 50 00:02:40,100 --> 00:02:42,700 Wars. You don't eliminate more Wars. 51 00:02:43,300 --> 00:02:47,000 You can look at levels of military spending over the years 52 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,800 at the placement of troops at the propaganda and the threats. 53 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,500 It All Leads to more. More Wars, not away from them. 54 00:02:54,500 --> 00:02:57,600 You don't, you know, you don't build a bigger smarter military 55 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,900 and get more peace and fewer Wars. 56 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,300 You get what you're building and planning and training and arming 57 00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:08,300 people for more Wars before getting into the Second World 58 00:03:08,300 --> 00:03:10,900 War. I just want to summarize some 59 00:03:10,900 --> 00:03:12,200 information on the first, of course. 60 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:14,300 It's so difficult to find a starting point. 61 00:03:14,500 --> 00:03:18,700 We have a Britain declaring war on August, 4th 1914. 62 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,600 This was a causal result of Germany, invading Belgium. 63 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:26,700 In order to get to France in violation of an 1839 agreement 64 00:03:26,700 --> 00:03:31,300 between the UK, France, and Prussia the Treaty of London 65 00:03:31,700 --> 00:03:33,400 guaranteeing Belgium's neutrality. 66 00:03:33,700 --> 00:03:37,000 What are the lessons and big takeaways from the first world 67 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,200 war? Well, some of the lessons were 68 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,500 pretty well learned by a lot of people. 69 00:03:43,500 --> 00:03:47,300 Not enough, not enough to make it work to fend off the sequel. 70 00:03:47,300 --> 00:03:50,900 That was, you know, predicted by very smart people upon the 71 00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:54,700 conclusion of World War 1. So so one lesson is that having 72 00:03:54,700 --> 00:03:58,600 thousands of people Slaughter and poison and gun each other 73 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:04,700 down in lined up, trenches for no earthly reason for year after 74 00:04:04,700 --> 00:04:08,700 year is incredibly, stupid and horrific and tragic. 75 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:10,700 This was a lesson. A lot of people learned. 76 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:17,000 Another lesson is that you don't end the war with vicious 77 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:22,400 vengeful, you know, repercussions for one party. 78 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,500 Whew, if you're not going to expect that party to come back 79 00:04:26,500 --> 00:04:30,500 seeking Vengeance when it's able which is why you had very smart 80 00:04:30,500 --> 00:04:34,600 people upon the conclusion of the the Treaty of Versailles. 81 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,000 After World War 1 predicting, predicting WWII down down, 82 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:44,900 almost to the day. And it was, it was just an 83 00:04:44,900 --> 00:04:51,300 incredible failure of will of understanding of political force 84 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:56,300 and And quite possibly of government handling of a 85 00:04:56,300 --> 00:04:59,800 disease. Pandemic of very much like the 86 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,500 current one, which is a an interesting story. 87 00:05:03,500 --> 00:05:08,800 If you don't mind me throwing it in, you know, fit the doctors 88 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:13,300 like today where warning people not to not to mix and cough and 89 00:05:13,300 --> 00:05:17,500 sneeze all over each other. And the politicians were putting 90 00:05:17,500 --> 00:05:19,900 up signs that don't spit, don't sneeze. 91 00:05:19,900 --> 00:05:21,800 Don't cough. Everything will be fine. 92 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,100 And a If they had this big March and rally for the returns troops 93 00:05:27,100 --> 00:05:31,500 in Philadelphia, and these were US troops that had brought the 94 00:05:31,500 --> 00:05:34,900 so-called Spanish Flu to World War 1 and we're now bringing it 95 00:05:34,900 --> 00:05:38,200 home in larger numbers. And of course, it's spread 96 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,200 everywhere and among the people who got it was a guy named 97 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,000 Woodrow Wilson in The White House. 98 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,800 And while he was at Paris, France for the treaty 99 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:51,500 negotiations. He failed to stand up to 100 00:05:51,500 --> 00:05:54,900 Britain. To seek a peace without victory 101 00:05:54,900 --> 00:05:58,500 and Vengeance. And let the whole world down 102 00:05:58,500 --> 00:06:04,100 that believed his his rhetoric about, you know, a lot of it 103 00:06:04,100 --> 00:06:06,900 was, you know, just phony from top to bottom but some of it he 104 00:06:06,900 --> 00:06:10,600 may have actually meant that some point in any case he didn't 105 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,300 put up any fight for it, any of it. 106 00:06:13,700 --> 00:06:15,800 And you got this horrible treaty. 107 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,000 Well Wilson was you know, lying sick in bed, hacking away there 108 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,500 in Paris. So, you know, they're there. 109 00:06:22,700 --> 00:06:28,600 These freak incidents in history that could have so easily gone a 110 00:06:28,608 --> 00:06:31,900 different way that can have horrible consequences. 111 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,000 Ralph Reiko the historian, mostly yell focusing on the 112 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,600 world wars says that the greatest weapon was the blockade 113 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,300 instituted by Churchill. When he was first, Lord of the 114 00:06:45,300 --> 00:06:49,500 admiralty in 1914. There was also a large blockade 115 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:54,800 in the 90s that the US and un. Had on our rack with your 116 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:56,500 research. What do you think about the 117 00:06:56,700 --> 00:07:00,100 moral justification of things like blockades, or even 118 00:07:00,100 --> 00:07:02,500 sanctions and are they effective? 119 00:07:03,900 --> 00:07:07,600 Well, the blockade on Cuba has been going strong, without any 120 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:12,400 hint of even partial Victory on its own terms for, you know, 121 00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:20,400 well beyond my lifetime there does not seem to be any sign 122 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,900 that. That these sanctions, these 123 00:07:22,900 --> 00:07:27,000 blockades these immoral and illegal General punishments of 124 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,700 whole populations. In violation of the Geneva 125 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:32,300 conventions, work on their own terms. 126 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:35,900 I mean there, Can go back and say, well, the, you know, 127 00:07:35,900 --> 00:07:40,500 ancient Greece fell because they blocked the exit from the Black 128 00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:42,500 Sea, and they couldn't get anything to eat. 129 00:07:42,900 --> 00:07:47,400 And you can find cases where, you know, some, some sort of 130 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:52,600 international boycott had some impact on, you know, apartheid 131 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:59,500 South Africa, you know, some partial victory in terms of BDS 132 00:07:59,500 --> 00:08:03,300 on the Israeli government etcetera, but injector. 133 00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:05,800 All these sanctions do not work on their own terms. 134 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:11,500 At least as stated explicitly. If the plan is to weaken Nation 135 00:08:11,500 --> 00:08:16,000 prior to a war. If the plan is sadistic 136 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,700 punishment and the creation of suffering among men women and 137 00:08:19,700 --> 00:08:22,300 children. Well, then, yes, they work their 138 00:08:22,300 --> 00:08:26,700 their horrific and the United States has these sanctions. 139 00:08:26,700 --> 00:08:31,400 Punishing not just individuals, but whole populations of men 140 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,100 women and children to private. Mo food and Medicine in numerous 141 00:08:36,100 --> 00:08:42,299 countries all over the globe. Cuba, Iran and North Korea, it's 142 00:08:42,299 --> 00:08:46,200 Syria. Of course, it's something 143 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,300 that's, that's got to be dealt with and treated as part. 144 00:08:50,300 --> 00:08:55,300 And parcel of the crime of of War because it is, it is 145 00:08:55,300 --> 00:09:01,400 punishment of innocent people for the disputes of governments, 146 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,500 and it ought not to be Be tolerated. 147 00:09:05,100 --> 00:09:08,500 Excellent points out. The book is World War is leaving 148 00:09:08,500 --> 00:09:10,100 WWII behind. Sorry. 149 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:13,100 I was reading the back. As I said that let's get into 150 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,800 the second world war on September 3rd 1939 two days 151 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:22,100 after Germany invades Poland. The United Kingdom declares war, 152 00:09:22,100 --> 00:09:24,600 on Germany. France, declares war on the same 153 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,300 day, was the UK morally justified in declaring war on 154 00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:30,900 Germany as a cause of result of invading Poland. 155 00:09:31,700 --> 00:09:37,100 I don't think there can be a moral justification for 156 00:09:37,100 --> 00:09:40,300 launching a war, whether you declare it or not. 157 00:09:40,300 --> 00:09:43,800 And whether you fight it or not to here's a here's a case of 158 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,000 declaring it and not immediately fighting it. 159 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:51,000 I think if you go through I wrote a book called war is never 160 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,300 just going through all the theorizing of the just War 161 00:09:54,300 --> 00:09:57,900 Theory wrists as to what could justify a war and make it 162 00:09:57,900 --> 00:10:02,600 morally acceptable and somehow do more good than Or be 163 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,900 acceptable despite doing more evil than good. 164 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,800 And I couldn't find any way to do it. 165 00:10:08,300 --> 00:10:14,400 The criteria are all ether, just purely nonsensical rhetoric that 166 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,000 you can't go out and measure and find out whether it means 167 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,200 anything or not. You know, what's what's 168 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,300 proportional? Who knows they just pull a 169 00:10:21,308 --> 00:10:23,900 number out of the air or it's stuff. 170 00:10:23,900 --> 00:10:27,300 That is just simply a moral just has nothing to do with morality 171 00:10:27,300 --> 00:10:29,500 whatsoever. You know, is it is the war 172 00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:31,300 declared by the proper Authority? 173 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:36,100 If if Canada bombs you in the United States, are you gonna run 174 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:38,500 outside and Shout? Was it the prime minister or the 175 00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:39,800 parliament? If it was the parliament? 176 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,900 I like these bombs. If it was the Prime Minister 177 00:10:41,900 --> 00:10:43,300 goddamn him. Stop the bombs. 178 00:10:43,300 --> 00:10:47,100 You who cares? It's a crime, it's Mass killing. 179 00:10:47,300 --> 00:10:52,400 I don't care which authority is you know, and and when you you 180 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,500 talk about defense, I mean, this is one of the lessons I was 181 00:10:55,500 --> 00:10:58,800 going to mention and forgot in my haste on your world war. 182 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,300 One question. One of the lessons ought to have 183 00:11:01,300 --> 00:11:05,700 been And do not sign up to be required to join in somebody 184 00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:08,900 else's War. This is what NATO is right. 185 00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:13,200 When when England and France, both Centaur, Mina, warships to 186 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,400 some little island, some weeks back. 187 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,200 If they had actually gone to war. 188 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,200 Every other NATO member would have been required to attack 189 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,400 both of them, as well as each other. 190 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,500 As soon as any of them had attacked any NATO member, this 191 00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:30,800 was what world war one was a commitment to get into Wars 192 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:35,800 because buddy else got into Wars, very dumb idea and not a 193 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:41,900 moral idea when you look at at the results when you look at, 194 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:46,100 when you look at what led up to that situation, and the behavior 195 00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:49,300 of the United Kingdom and its support for armaments and its 196 00:11:49,300 --> 00:11:54,200 support for the rise of the Nazi government in Germany, you know, 197 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,600 as preferable to any possibility of communist influence in 198 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:04,200 Germany, and then the decision to Claire War and the horrific 199 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,800 results of that. The worst thing that Humanity 200 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,000 has ever done to itself in any short space of time. 201 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:14,800 It's hard to imagine a worse Choice than that declaration of 202 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,900 war. Some of the smartest people in 203 00:12:19,900 --> 00:12:23,700 the arena who were constantly. I mean, they've never met a war. 204 00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:26,200 They didn't like our the Council on Foreign Relations. 205 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,800 I want to quote from the president of the Council on 206 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:32,900 Foreign Relations is very vague and And he knows his audience. 207 00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:35,100 So he knows he doesn't really have to make a case here. 208 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,400 But this is what he wrote in World in disarray. 209 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,400 The second world war could not have been more different in its 210 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,000 Origins from the first not. Surprisingly. 211 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,500 The lessons to be learned are very different from those to be 212 00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:49,500 drawn from the run-up to World War 1, Germany and Japan Embrace 213 00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:53,400 goals in the 1930s, that could not be accommodated. 214 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,200 Within the existing International order both had 215 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,700 become Hostage to political systems at home that eliminated 216 00:12:59,700 --> 00:13:01,500 checks and balances on those Wheels. 217 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,400 Political power, both invested heavily in the means to wage 218 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,700 war. Both did their part to upset the 219 00:13:06,700 --> 00:13:08,600 balance of power that had developed. 220 00:13:08,700 --> 00:13:11,000 The result. Was that, whereas World War one 221 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,000 was, largely an accidental and avoidable War World, War 2 was 222 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,600 anything. But how do you respond to the 223 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,300 infinite wisdom of Richard haass? 224 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:25,600 I think it's infinitely wrong and not just myself, but people 225 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,600 I absolutely despise. I mean people like Winston 226 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:31,500 Churchill who had something to do with both of those. 227 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,000 Those Wars declared World War Two to have been the most of 228 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,300 avoidable war. And of course, one of the 229 00:13:38,300 --> 00:13:42,800 reasons for that is that it came directly out of, as we discussed 230 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,600 earlier how they ended World War 1 to say the origins were 231 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,200 completely different. Would require explaining how 232 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,200 what the heck was different about the origins of really a 233 00:13:53,200 --> 00:14:00,100 sequel to a first part of a pair of wars or or one long war is 234 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:03,200 very hard to see. And when you Are talking about. 235 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,600 Well, they were, they were imperialistic. 236 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,300 They wanted to upset the balance of power. 237 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,800 Well, how in the heck, is that different from World War one is 238 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,500 completely Beyond me? And when you start talking about 239 00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:18,100 abuses at home. Well, this is of course hinting 240 00:14:18,100 --> 00:14:20,500 that. Well, the Nazis were cruel to 241 00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:24,300 people within their own realm and the Japanese were cruel to 242 00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:28,900 people within Japan and this therefore somehow justifies 243 00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:32,800 bombing those people. Because if If someone is, you 244 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,200 know, locking people up in prison camps and torturing them 245 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,700 and murdering them, then bombing them is somehow Justified. 246 00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:44,200 Where, of course, the bombing killed, vastly more people than 247 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,600 the prison camps and the prison camps were absolutely 248 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,500 unnecessary and had nothing to do with the justifications for 249 00:14:51,500 --> 00:14:55,600 the war even in anyone's pretence until long after the 250 00:14:55,600 --> 00:15:00,000 war was over, in fact, the United States and its allies and 251 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,600 countries around the world. Illicitly refused to take the 252 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,000 future victim. Those camps out of Germany 253 00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:11,700 didn't want them didn't care had no interest for openly 254 00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:16,400 shamelessly anti-semitic and bigoted raisins and and it's the 255 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:21,300 burying of this history and the invention of this myth that 256 00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:25,700 somehow the domestic cruelty of the Nazis Justified. 257 00:15:25,700 --> 00:15:30,100 The war, When The War makers were were, you know, just 258 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:34,200 kicking the It's away from their offices who were demanding that 259 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,900 they stopped the war for a minute and take those people out 260 00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:38,500 of Germany and they wouldn't do it. 261 00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:44,600 This is this the this is I think the number one feet of Western 262 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,900 propaganda because it is such a it's such a reversal of the 263 00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:54,100 reality and it is such a powerful motivation of the most 264 00:15:54,100 --> 00:15:56,400 horrific evils in the name of good. 265 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,700 Because when I go and talk to a class of students or random 266 00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:06,300 people about ending all And I say why not 99.99% of the time. 267 00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:09,500 The reason is WWII and I say why. 268 00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:15,100 And 99.99% of the time the answer is Holocaust, right? 269 00:16:15,500 --> 00:16:19,000 This is this is the reason why we should put a trillion dollars 270 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,500 into war next year and should tolerate drone. 271 00:16:22,500 --> 00:16:25,900 Murders around the globe and fun little Wars like destroying 272 00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:30,600 Libya because Holocaust, because World War Two, And the fact that 273 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,100 that's absolutely Loot nonsense and just twist the facts. 274 00:16:34,100 --> 00:16:39,300 Absolutely upside down again. I think it's the most impressive 275 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:43,100 feat of propaganda. I'm aware of and we still see 276 00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:48,800 the propaganda all the time. It's like well we had to go into 277 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,200 the second world war because we were attacked. 278 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,400 Well, years later actually, it was because of the Holocaust 279 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,200 saddam's going to Nuke us any day now. 280 00:16:56,300 --> 00:16:58,400 Well, actually we're trying to spread democracy. 281 00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:00,800 The al-Qaeda is hiding in Afghanistan. 282 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,600 Well, the Band is actually really bad and we're actually 283 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,599 there for regime change. It's like, it's like they scare 284 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:08,800 you in. And then once they and then once 285 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,000 their lives have been refuted, they all of a sudden have this. 286 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,599 Moral compass of. Let's have democracy there. 287 00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:17,300 Even though, you know, they mainly spit in our face here 288 00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:21,000 whenever we try to, you know, alter the state arrangements or 289 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,500 anything. They have a constant of record 290 00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:27,200 of deception. I want to go to what you I 291 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,000 believe you called. This is the most common 292 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,600 justification for the war. The concept of the National 293 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:38,000 Socialist World takeover, Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia, Austria. 294 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,100 Poland Denmark Norway Belgium, the Netherlands, France Channel 295 00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:45,100 Islands of Britain. The Soviet Union and Italy. 296 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:50,200 After Mussolini had been imprisoned therefore by the 297 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,900 actions of that government. We could see they were 298 00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:55,400 attempting to take over large swaths. 299 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:59,700 Clearly, with no end in sight trying to take over the world. 300 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:01,400 Therefore, we were justified in end. 301 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,400 A board to stop a Nazi takeover. How do you respond? 302 00:18:06,300 --> 00:18:10,500 Well, I guess it would depend in part on who that we supposedly 303 00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:13,700 is one of the most abused words in the English language. 304 00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:16,400 We as a we were attacked in Pearl Harbor. 305 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,400 Well, wasn't the United States? Who's the? 306 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,500 We I mean, Hawaii was not a part of this Empire yet. 307 00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:28,900 And so if the Wii is some government or some population 308 00:18:28,900 --> 00:18:31,900 that wasn't itself bent on taking over the world. 309 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,300 I would love to know who that was, you know, there. 310 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,600 Was a book came out just last year from a professor at 311 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,500 Columbia University. Who works with this new Quincy 312 00:18:43,500 --> 00:18:48,200 Institute in Washington, about the decision being made in 313 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,800 foreign policy circles in the United States during World War 2 314 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:58,000 and write in the early stages of World War Two that the United 315 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:02,500 States really needed to take over the world and proceeded 316 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:06,400 accordingly. And so that all of the basis and 317 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,400 the land acquisition and the domination of other countries, 318 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:16,300 got a huge boost that's never let up for the United States and 319 00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:20,600 its Empire during WWII. So, I hope whoever is, you know, 320 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,400 denouncing the, the German Imperial Ambitions, which of 321 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:29,400 course, nobody would dispute it is, you know, is not engaged in, 322 00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:35,200 in wholesale hypocrisy, but but the question of whether to bomb 323 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:41,400 Is of millions of people to death, isn't actually a question 324 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,700 of the evil of some government against, whose name you're doing 325 00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:48,000 it. The question is, whether that 326 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,900 will bring about the best results for those people or not? 327 00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:58,400 And very clearly War brings about the worst possible results 328 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,500 for everybody involved. There isn't anything worse than 329 00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:06,900 it, you know, this new post WWII know, Notion that well, that's 330 00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:10,400 somewhat built on the false propaganda around World War 2, 331 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,400 the post-world, war to World War Two propaganda. 332 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,600 The, that that genocide is something worse than war, and 333 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:21,300 therefore, we must have wars to deal with genocide is just 334 00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:27,000 incredibly misleading. Genocide is a type of War comes 335 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,900 out. Of war is almost 336 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:31,600 indistinguishable from many wars. 337 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,200 And if we're going to get rid of War, we're going to get rid of 338 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,400 But we're not going to do it through war or through genocide. 339 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,500 That doesn't work. Erica chenoweth's new book 340 00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:47,700 called civil resistance. What everybody needs to know is 341 00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:53,700 just so well documented with the evidence that nonviolent action, 342 00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:56,900 even against invasions even against Coos, even against 343 00:20:56,900 --> 00:21:01,300 dictatorships is just so much more effective and those 344 00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:05,200 successes so much longer lasting than violence. 345 00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:10,100 Is that this notion that the evil of any enemy could somehow 346 00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:14,900 justify using violence or that you should resort to violence as 347 00:21:14,900 --> 00:21:18,200 the last resort as if it were somehow stronger or more likely 348 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,800 to succeed than something else. It's just getting the facts. 349 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,800 Wrong people, complain about climate denial or covid denial 350 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:32,800 or any rejection of, you know, widely accepted facts, but 351 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:38,400 non-violence denial. Is absolutely acceptable in 352 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,900 Washingtonian politics, but it is absolutely just as opposing 353 00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:45,600 to the facts. As any of these other cases. 354 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,800 The facts are very clear. Non-violence is more powerful 355 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:55,500 than violence, and what are some real-world nonviolent examples. 356 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,800 Well, there are hundreds and I'm not going to remember them all, 357 00:22:01,300 --> 00:22:05,100 but you can look at numerous countries. 358 00:22:05,300 --> 00:22:11,800 He's that in fact got rid of Soviet Empire without without 359 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,300 picking up a gun. Some of which look, you know, 360 00:22:15,300 --> 00:22:19,200 absolutely laughable and must have been dreamed up by some 361 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,800 hippie high on something very strange like the people of 362 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:27,500 Latvia throwing out the Soviet Union by singing songs, but they 363 00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:30,400 surrounded all of the government buildings singing these 364 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:36,500 nationalistic songs and shut the place down until The Soviets got 365 00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:42,200 out. If you look at, if you look at 366 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,900 places, if you look at the Arab Spring, for example where you 367 00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:50,300 had all of these failed violent revolutions across North Africa, 368 00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:55,100 and Southwest Asia, except in Tunisia, where they used, very 369 00:22:55,100 --> 00:23:00,400 strong and strategic nonviolent action and they were successful 370 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,600 at least up until now, everything's going to help 371 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:11,100 possibly in Tunisia. If if you look at if I mean, 372 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:17,700 there have been there have been successful overthrows of 373 00:23:17,700 --> 00:23:23,900 dictators on every continent. If you look at the Palestinian 374 00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:29,600 struggle against Israeli occupation, the first intifada, 375 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:34,300 which was almost entirely non-violent was far more 376 00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:36,700 effective. Predictable reasons. 377 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,800 Then the second or anything to come later. 378 00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:45,200 And you know, God forbid. I impose my advice on the 379 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,100 Palestinians. It's not my place and I and I 380 00:23:48,100 --> 00:23:51,200 offer no one wanted to advice to anyone who doesn't want it. 381 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,200 You know, I can't as somebody who's you know, supposedly 382 00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:59,400 identified with the US government, tell people the US 383 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:04,100 government is killing and and traumatizing how they should 384 00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:06,900 respond. But If anyone wants to know my 385 00:24:06,900 --> 00:24:13,600 honest answer, it is, you know, to look at the facts this and I 386 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,600 think the facts are pretty clear in various parts of what was 387 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:23,500 Yugoslavia in various countries in Latin America. 388 00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:29,500 Non-violence has just worked overwhelmingly better, which 389 00:24:29,500 --> 00:24:33,100 does not mean, it always works. It works about half the time, 390 00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:35,100 but violence doesn't work anymore. 391 00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:39,800 Are close to half the time and and when it works the successes 392 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:45,300 are very fragile and likely to be reversed because of the 393 00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:49,600 horrible resentment and Vengeance that comes out of the 394 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,300 violence. And you know, a lot of times 395 00:24:53,300 --> 00:24:57,200 nonviolent movements will accomplished a tremendous amount 396 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,100 and then somebody will turn violent and that's all anybody 397 00:25:01,100 --> 00:25:05,000 will remember is the violence that came at the end. 398 00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:10,300 Like the like the trick protests in Seattle, you know, in the 90s 399 00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:15,800 but the American Revolution over a period of years, people in the 400 00:25:15,808 --> 00:25:20,000 United States, had almost replaced, the British government 401 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:22,700 with alternative governments with Committees of 402 00:25:22,700 --> 00:25:26,800 Correspondence. They had engaged in nonviolent 403 00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:31,800 resistance, protests takeovers of courthouses, corporate 404 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,500 protests dumping T in the Harbor's. 405 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:40,500 They they had, you know, created these new structures of 406 00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:45,100 government and of economy in a very gandhian manner producing 407 00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:47,400 their own good. So as not to have to buy them 408 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,300 and pay the British taxes on them and it sort of the, the 409 00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:53,600 abstract of and the construct. If, you know before, Mohandas 410 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,200 Gandhi ever talked about any of this stuff, right? 411 00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,100 And you go back through history and you see the success of 412 00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:02,500 non-violence before? Anybody knew what they were 413 00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:04,900 doing? Or had any schools teaching it. 414 00:26:05,300 --> 00:26:09,700 It still worked so that even during World War Two, where 415 00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:13,200 non-violence was used against the Nazis, even in the heart of 416 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,100 Berlin. It was incredibly successful. 417 00:26:16,300 --> 00:26:19,700 And if people had known on how to follow through and escalate 418 00:26:19,700 --> 00:26:21,500 it, who knows, what would have happened? 419 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,400 Is there anything else you think we could learn from? 420 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,600 You know, Nelson Mandela Martin Luther King jr. 421 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,300 Rosa Parks, or Gandhi anything. I just really want to exhaust 422 00:26:33,300 --> 00:26:36,800 this as much as possible, so we can get as many ideas out there. 423 00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:40,700 Well, I still have a lot to learn from each of those people. 424 00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:45,200 I couldn't begin to exhaust it if we had hours and hours 425 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:52,300 because I don't know it, but I think that more and and more 426 00:26:52,300 --> 00:26:56,600 people are learning it and more and more people are using it. 427 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,700 And it's be and by it. I mean, the tools of nonviolent 428 00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:06,800 resistance, civil resistance that the tools of strikes and 429 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:13,600 sit-ins, and sit downs, and lions, and and nonviolent 430 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:20,900 creative artistic disruptions and and Street blockages. 431 00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:27,400 And Lobbying and petitioning and media creation, and substitute 432 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,100 government creation, and all the thousands and thousands of 433 00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:33,500 things that aren't violence, you know, all of the things you can 434 00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:34,900 use. Other than that, one little 435 00:27:34,900 --> 00:27:39,100 thing called violence are increasingly being studied, and 436 00:27:39,100 --> 00:27:44,100 understood and used and used for good and Ill used, you know, 437 00:27:44,100 --> 00:27:48,900 used for, you know, campaigns that are that are fueled and 438 00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:54,200 funded and supported by Corrupt oligarchies that want to 439 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:59,100 generate these AstroTurf movements to you know, gin up 440 00:27:59,100 --> 00:28:03,800 public support against the public good, as well as being 441 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:09,800 used by real popular movements that are based in a, in a 442 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,200 democratic popular, understanding of what's needed. 443 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,700 And so, you know, the fact that these tools can be used for evil 444 00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:20,300 ends, doesn't mean they're bad tools. 445 00:28:20,300 --> 00:28:24,900 And the fact that At these nonviolent tools, almost always 446 00:28:24,900 --> 00:28:28,100 result in violence, from the other side that has to be 447 00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:32,600 overcome and pushed through. Use it, some sort of Mark 448 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,900 against non-violence as a strategy. 449 00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:42,300 This is expected and understood from from the get-go, but I 450 00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:47,700 think you know, a lot of people believe that when there is a 451 00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:51,600 popular movement. It really almost always does. 452 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:57,000 Have major popular support and when foreign governments and 453 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,800 agencies and the CIA and the usaid jump in, you know, to 454 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:06,100 support somebody like Juan, why do in Venezuela, it actually 455 00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:09,100 tends to diminish their popular support and hurt them. 456 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,200 You know, I haven't studied enough cases in enough detail to 457 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,200 know if that's if that's really predictably true. 458 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,200 But if so, that would be that would be simply wonderful news. 459 00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:26,500 If I have come to understand that that foreign support can be 460 00:29:26,500 --> 00:29:30,800 identified and spotted and that it's a reason to back off and 461 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,500 get out of a popular movement. I mean this this would 462 00:29:34,500 --> 00:29:38,900 absolutely defang the, the CIA and the usaid. 463 00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:44,100 And you know, this this pattern of of coup facilitation that 464 00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:49,800 we've that we've seen for the past 70 years, final thing on 465 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:56,200 not Nonviolent resistance is your general theory that 466 00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,400 engaging in non-violence resistance, exposes the violence 467 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,700 of the opposition of, you know, whoever the evildoers are. 468 00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:08,100 Let's take the Rosa Parks case, being the American police. 469 00:30:08,100 --> 00:30:11,300 It exposes that. And that's what changes popular 470 00:30:11,300 --> 00:30:14,500 opinion. And that's what gets people to 471 00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:17,100 change policies. They otherwise might not even 472 00:30:17,100 --> 00:30:20,400 reconsider in many, many, many cases. 473 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:25,000 Yes, this How it works. And this is why Communications 474 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:31,100 is so incredibly important, you know, if I mean the the u.s. 475 00:30:31,100 --> 00:30:35,800 Civil Rights Movement, if the the, the northern and the 476 00:30:35,808 --> 00:30:40,800 national media, Outlets could not be counted upon to sometimes 477 00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:45,900 cover and show people, the horror the, the abuses, the the 478 00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:50,300 pushback, from the, the racist, Governors and sheriffs, and 479 00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:51,600 police Chiefs. Well, then it never. 480 00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:54,200 I have worked not the way that it was done. 481 00:30:54,900 --> 00:31:00,500 And this is the same thing that that we see in in cases around 482 00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:05,400 the world. The problem is how corrupt how 483 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,200 out of touch and on out of control, the major media Outlets 484 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:15,500 have become so that you do not get the same coverage of protest 485 00:31:15,500 --> 00:31:21,500 movements today that you got in the 1960s or of Wars horrible 486 00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:25,100 and Slanted as the US media coverage of the war on Vietnam, 487 00:31:25,100 --> 00:31:31,600 may have been and certainly was, you had footage of victims in 488 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,000 the war human beings. You saw the horror now and 489 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:41,400 again, this is, this is very rare, you know, and when you 490 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:46,900 have an instance where people in Gaza or Syria, or Iraq or 491 00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:51,500 Afghanistan, are or Yemen, are are presented and treated as 492 00:31:51,700 --> 00:31:57,900 Human beings and the crime of the horrific actions taken 493 00:31:57,900 --> 00:32:00,600 against them. As something regrettable. 494 00:32:00,700 --> 00:32:05,200 These are, you know, rare outstanding flukes in US media 495 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,300 coverage that everybody sends each other on social media, but 496 00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:12,900 they're not, they're not the bulk of the media coverage which 497 00:32:12,900 --> 00:32:17,800 dehumanizes and ignores and avoids showing the suffering. 498 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,800 And so this is why it's, you know, Such a difficult thing 499 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,500 globally but it's but it's a part. 500 00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:29,400 It's so much easier to use locally, especially when you can 501 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,900 generate media. And and this is why the ability 502 00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:37,800 of individuals to generate social media and small media is 503 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,600 so important. Yeah that that's an excellent 504 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:46,800 point and also it's just I want to say funny but it's more sad 505 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:50,300 to see how the media just throws away these stories once they 506 00:32:50,300 --> 00:32:54,100 don't fit the narrative. Assad is gassing his own people. 507 00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:57,700 Oh, it's actually a video from a gun range in Kentucky. 508 00:32:57,700 --> 00:32:59,700 Ask screw the Kurds. We never cared. 509 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,100 They haven't been brought up since Gaddafi's giving his 510 00:33:02,100 --> 00:33:06,100 troops Viagra for Mass rape. Well, then they go overthrow 511 00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:08,200 Gaddafi Gaddafi, and now their slave markets. 512 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,500 Haven't heard about Libya since of course, they never follow it 513 00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:13,100 up. They pull at your heartstrings, 514 00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:16,600 you justify the war and then they're on to Russia gate or 515 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,400 whatever their next. A horrible thing is want to get 516 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,500 back to the book leaving World War Two. 517 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,400 Find did the attack at Pearl Harbor. 518 00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:29,300 Justify the u.s. Responding by declaring war on 519 00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:35,200 Japan. Well, I not be repetitive but I 520 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,900 have to say, I don't think you can justify declaring or Waging 521 00:33:39,900 --> 00:33:46,600 War on anyone. And, you know, again, Hawaii was 522 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:52,700 not part of the United States. It's very telling that that day 523 00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:57,000 is now called now, thought of as Pearl Harbor day, or at the time 524 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,900 it wasn't right at the time. This is a story very well told, 525 00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:02,700 you know. Look of a couple years back 526 00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:07,200 called how to hide an Empire. The Japanese attacked numerous 527 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,900 countries on the same day including the Philippines where 528 00:34:10,900 --> 00:34:14,000 Douglas MacArthur left all the airplanes lined up on the runway 529 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,900 to be destroyed vastly more damage done than you know to a 530 00:34:17,900 --> 00:34:21,000 handful of ships at Pearl Harbor most of which were quickly put 531 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:25,500 back into use but the Philippines didn't have a lot of 532 00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:28,600 white people in it. Hawaii was thought of as some 533 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:34,100 more acceptable future state. As some more as, as a more 534 00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:38,000 plausible and appropriate place to pretend was part of the 535 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:42,199 United States and to treat the attack as on the United States 536 00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,600 as its treated to this day. And so the fact that the 537 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:49,900 Japanese attacked Guam and Alaska as well, and, and 538 00:34:49,900 --> 00:34:54,900 numerous Nations and Islands across the Pacific, most of 539 00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:58,800 which it invaded and occupied for some time, beginning that 540 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,400 day, including the Philippines with horrific results. 541 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:02,800 V. Whereas Pearl. 542 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,000 Harbor was this. This quick one-off bombing. 543 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:10,600 It doesn't matter because the narrative is about this story 544 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:16,200 about this sacred site where this evil dark-skinned nation of 545 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:21,600 lunatics, attacked the United States of God damn America, and 546 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,800 you know, the fact that it was, you know, an island country that 547 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,600 didn't want to be part of the United States and still wasn't 548 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,800 at that time. Doesn't matter the fact that the 549 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,700 United States States had been dead set on getting into a war 550 00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:38,300 with Japan for decades leading up. 551 00:35:38,300 --> 00:35:42,300 There had been a public arms race between the two there had 552 00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:44,500 been threats. There had been the base building 553 00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:47,600 around the Pacific by the United States. 554 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,300 The the provocative sanctions and blockades, cutting Japan off 555 00:35:52,300 --> 00:35:55,200 expecting reprisals and getting them. 556 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:59,600 The fact that one of the the judges at the tribunal in Tokyo, 557 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,700 after the war concluded that Fact the United States had 558 00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:06,800 provoked, the war the fact that in that the u.s. 559 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,300 Navy had been told the war was started prior to Pearl Harbor 560 00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:13,400 that Franklin Roosevelt. It started the draft prior to 561 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,900 Pearl Harbor that Franklin. Roosevelt had made the list of 562 00:36:15,900 --> 00:36:18,800 all the Japanese Americans to deal with prior to Pearl, 563 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:24,200 Harbor, Etc. You know, there's there's 564 00:36:24,900 --> 00:36:27,300 endless disputes over. Exactly. 565 00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:31,300 Who knew what at what our regarding the bombing of Pearl 566 00:36:31,300 --> 00:36:31,900 Harbor. Harbor. 567 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:38,300 But the fact that nothing was done to prevent the war. 568 00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:43,300 The fact that the United States government had a list of ways to 569 00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:46,800 provoke the war and had been ticking them off for months, 570 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,800 taking each step, the fact that the two governments wanted the 571 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,000 war and that the u.s. Government principally. 572 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,500 Wanted the war as a means of getting into the war in Europe 573 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,800 and that Roosevelt that night, drafted a Of war on Japan and 574 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,200 Germany until he was talked into taking Germany out of it, you 575 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,200 know, this, none of this stuff fits the narrative, but it's 576 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:16,100 indisputable fact. As far as I think the book came 577 00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:20,800 out in 1947 or 48, Georgia Morgenstern was quoting the 578 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:24,400 Secretary of War Henry Stimson at the time, saying, in this 579 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,600 guy's own diary. And I believe, November 29th 580 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,800 1941. He was saying, we had a meeting, 581 00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:34,100 we talked about doing everything, we could to get 582 00:37:34,100 --> 00:37:38,400 Japan to make the first move in order to justify the war, you 583 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:41,900 had Winston, Churchill and Franklin, Roosevelt and 584 00:37:41,900 --> 00:37:44,400 Newfoundland. According to the You got times 585 00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:46,500 or entry plans laid to Roosevelt. 586 00:37:46,500 --> 00:37:48,900 It. Explicitly said they're trying 587 00:37:48,900 --> 00:37:53,800 to provoke Germany at the time with the same submarine warfare 588 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:55,800 that they had with the Lusitania. 589 00:37:55,900 --> 00:38:00,200 But then they moved to Japan. You even had the McCullum memo 590 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:06,200 that Robert Stinnett published in 1999, which you mentioned in 591 00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,100 the book. So is there anything else about 592 00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:12,500 the Pearl Harbor controversy? I know John toland. 593 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,000 Also wrote a book. Book called infamy. 594 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,300 Is there any other pieces of evidence to show that far from 595 00:38:18,300 --> 00:38:21,300 being, you know, the official story America was this 596 00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:24,900 isolationist country that just mind its own business out of 597 00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:29,200 nowhere was attacked and that's why we can never listen to the 598 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,000 David Swanson's of the world because Pearl Harbors, a 9/11 599 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,400 happened. Well, you know, it's a pair of 600 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,900 lies in that myth, right? The United States wasn't an 601 00:38:38,900 --> 00:38:42,300 innocent bystander. The United States was building 602 00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:47,200 bases and Send putting ships in the Pacific and provoking Japan 603 00:38:47,300 --> 00:38:51,300 knowingly for decades on this. There was no secret about it and 604 00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:55,500 never has been. And there was no surprise, you 605 00:38:55,500 --> 00:38:59,400 have newspapers with headline, so you can go pull up, pull up 606 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,800 the newspapers and look at them, you know, Japan likely to attack 607 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,400 over the weekend. So the notion that it was out of 608 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,400 a clear blue sky and nobody had any indication the United States 609 00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:13,000 expected. This, there was a nearby Island 610 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:14,800 a Time. Tiny little island, a part of 611 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,600 Hawaii, that they thought Japan would land on first and then 612 00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,900 attack from there, and they had the owners of the island, get 613 00:39:22,900 --> 00:39:26,800 their Hawaiian workers to take mules, and plow the whole thing 614 00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,200 up, so that it would be so rough. 615 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,500 The Japanese couldn't land a plane on this little island. 616 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,000 And when one of the Japanese planes during the attack on 617 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,500 Pearl, Harbor, for which they didn't use the island, had to 618 00:39:39,500 --> 00:39:41,800 make an emergency landing on that island. 619 00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:44,900 They actually didn't have any Despite all the work of those 620 00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:51,500 mules and in plow, so it just was not a surprise. 621 00:39:51,900 --> 00:39:55,100 It was not defensible. It wasn't an act of kindness. 622 00:39:55,100 --> 00:39:58,600 It was a horrific unforgivable Act of mass murder for which the 623 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:03,400 Japanese showed up in Prosecuting in a fair court, but 624 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:09,400 it was, it was the culmination of the efforts of Trees. 625 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,600 Hoping the hostilities for years and months and weeks and the 626 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,200 u.s. Conscious deliberate effort to 627 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,400 make sure Japan could be depicted. 628 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:24,300 As having taken the first shot. I really like how you said it 629 00:40:24,300 --> 00:40:26,900 was a crime and we should recognize it as such and we 630 00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:28,900 should treat it. Like anyone else who will 631 00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:33,100 committed such an evil action would be treated because I, you 632 00:40:33,100 --> 00:40:36,900 know, get called this stupid pansy softy by everyone else. 633 00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:38,300 When they go. Oh, you're an time. 634 00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:42,000 Or you live in fantasy land. The reality is sometimes you got 635 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,300 to get your hands dirty to which I just follow up and say or 636 00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:46,900 they're big word. Is appeasement. 637 00:40:46,900 --> 00:40:50,500 You can engage in app easement to which I say, so I need to go 638 00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:53,800 murder Joe Biden. So he'll stop bombing people in 639 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,000 Somalia recently or Syria or Yemen. 640 00:40:57,300 --> 00:41:00,900 And I need to go start killing politicians and US soldiers 641 00:41:01,100 --> 00:41:02,800 because, you know, I can't talk to them. 642 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,000 I can't convince them. That would be a piece meant. 643 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,300 I can't ask officers to stop enforcing the drug. 644 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,500 Cause I need just just start opening fire on them. 645 00:41:11,500 --> 00:41:14,700 Is that what you're saying? And then all of a sudden, they 646 00:41:14,700 --> 00:41:18,500 turn immediately to our side and say well that is ridiculously 647 00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:20,500 barbaric. And actually it probably 648 00:41:20,500 --> 00:41:24,200 wouldn't even do anything remotely beneficial to the cause 649 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,300 at large. So all you have to do is take 650 00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:29,300 their own logic, flip it against them to when it's no longer 651 00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:32,300 convenient and then they're like on our side and like a matter of 652 00:41:32,300 --> 00:41:34,000 minutes. Yeah. 653 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,900 I really like that. Take them to court court idea 654 00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:40,900 have She not any large-scale examples of, I don't know 655 00:41:41,100 --> 00:41:43,100 terrorist attacks. Let's just call Pearl Harbor. 656 00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:48,800 An act of terrorism that where the people the culprits have 657 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:52,100 been taken to court prosecuted and a war has been avoided. 658 00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:56,600 That's an excellent question. And by the way, I would love to 659 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,600 get you in touch with people. I see where and t-shirts 660 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,600 proposing to murder Joe Biden. It's actually not that. 661 00:42:03,700 --> 00:42:07,800 Not that rare and opinion. I think rather dangerously 662 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:14,800 enough in this country, you know, that there were attacks on 663 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,300 the World Trade Center, prior to September 2001, that were 664 00:42:18,300 --> 00:42:20,600 treated as crimes and prosecuted. 665 00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:27,400 The crimes of That date Were Somehow magically transformed 666 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,200 from crimes to a war. And so nobody was to be 667 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:35,200 prosecuted. Somebody was to be bombed and 668 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,400 this was a choice by the United States government and the United 669 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,100 States media not had nothing to do with the actions of that day, 670 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,700 which were just a little larger and more successful than very 671 00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:51,000 similar actions. That were treated as crimes if 672 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,600 you look at the. If you look, At the terrorism, 673 00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:59,100 meaning essentially Poor Man's Wars, you know, Wars without 674 00:42:59,100 --> 00:43:04,100 giant budgets because there's nothing about the us or NATO 675 00:43:04,100 --> 00:43:07,700 Wars that isn't terrifying and terrorizing is there, they're 676 00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:10,800 just very well armed and well funded, so it's not terrorism. 677 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:16,300 If you look at the terrorism coming out of the war on 678 00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:18,400 terrorism, which for years and years. 679 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,900 Increased terrorism around the world. 680 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,200 Took this group that was living in, California. 681 00:43:23,300 --> 00:43:26,900 Lives in Afghanistan and spread it across dozens of countries. 682 00:43:28,500 --> 00:43:33,800 Some of the terrorism has been addressed by treating it as a 683 00:43:33,808 --> 00:43:38,900 crime and looking into its motivations and others other 684 00:43:38,900 --> 00:43:41,100 times. By treating it as somehow 685 00:43:41,100 --> 00:43:44,600 magically an act of war in need of balmy. 686 00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:48,900 So, you know, when someone put off a bomb in a Subway in 687 00:43:48,900 --> 00:43:53,800 London, that was an act of war. The UK needed to go by Bomb some 688 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,700 countries in Southwest Asia. And of course there were more 689 00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:02,000 bombs going off in London, when a bomb went off in Madrid, 690 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:06,800 Spain. This was treated as a crime in 691 00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,700 need of prosecution and a reason to elect a government that would 692 00:44:10,700 --> 00:44:19,200 take Spain out of these insane us UK LED Wars and there was 693 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,100 never an act of terrorism in Spain, at least. 694 00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:28,900 I mean, from outside of Spain from that day to this one and 695 00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:30,700 people would say well that's a piece moment. 696 00:44:30,700 --> 00:44:34,900 That's that's obeying. The wishes of the terrorists to 697 00:44:34,900 --> 00:44:39,700 stop bombing their women and children because they set off a 698 00:44:39,700 --> 00:44:44,300 bomb on a on a truck, you know, in in Spain your got that 699 00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:46,700 appeasement is just going to create endless bombings in 700 00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:48,700 Spain. But of course, the exact 701 00:44:48,700 --> 00:44:51,700 opposite is the reality. There hasn't been another 702 00:44:51,700 --> 00:44:53,900 bombing in Spain. Where, as the The terrorist 703 00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:59,600 threats and attacks on US troops and the troops of countries that 704 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,000 are that have continued their involvement. 705 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:08,500 In these idiotic Wars have gone on, you know, it's hard to. 706 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:13,500 It's hard to find cases of international crimes that have 707 00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:17,000 been prosecuted as the crimes they are, because there isn't 708 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,700 hardly any system of justice. There's an international 709 00:45:19,700 --> 00:45:23,200 criminal court that claims it can now prosecute the crime of 710 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,300 As a crime, they call it aggression. 711 00:45:25,300 --> 00:45:27,400 I call it War, but it hasn't done. 712 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,500 So. And it's it's an international 713 00:45:30,500 --> 00:45:33,100 criminal court, for Africans. I mean, you have to have done 714 00:45:33,100 --> 00:45:36,700 something horrible and you have to be African to get prosecuted. 715 00:45:36,700 --> 00:45:41,000 It's under the thumb as is the entire United Nations of the 716 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,800 five permanent members of the UN Security Council. 717 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:49,700 It's a it's a global institution that lacks democracy that you 718 00:45:49,700 --> 00:45:52,700 know runs around the world claiming to promote democracy. 719 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,900 That's given the five worst offenders veto power over 720 00:45:56,900 --> 00:45:59,600 anything. So it's, you know, it's got this 721 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,000 this weakness. So, yeah, I would like to see 722 00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:06,600 International crimes prosecuted as crimes. 723 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,200 I would like to see countries use Universal jurisdiction and 724 00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,000 prosecute, the crimes of other countries that are failing to 725 00:46:13,008 --> 00:46:15,900 prosecute their own crimes. I'd like to see the world court 726 00:46:15,900 --> 00:46:19,000 and the international criminal court prosecute crimes, but 727 00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:23,100 they'd have to be fair and Democratic to do. 728 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,800 Against the worst actors in the world, who are the most powerful 729 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:34,000 forces in the world and people like a mid Salim and ramzi, 730 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,500 Yousef. And Timothy McVeigh, would those 731 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,800 all count as examples of what could have what I mean? 732 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,600 If the Press had declared them terrorism in the politicians, 733 00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,700 followed, they all could have started Wars some way or another 734 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:49,600 was ramzi. Yousef. 735 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:56,200 The guy in 93 who was in court. You remember, I believe I'm 736 00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,800 sorry to just put that on you. I'm trying to think of an 737 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:01,900 example. Well, let's, let's take Timothy 738 00:47:01,900 --> 00:47:05,500 McVeigh first. I mean, here's here's a case. 739 00:47:05,500 --> 00:47:09,800 Where the media within minutes was telling everybody to look 740 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:15,400 for somebody Islamic or Muslim or dark-skinned, and then very 741 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:20,600 soon discovered that it was some white skinned US military 742 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,700 veteran of of the first the go. For on a wreck. 743 00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:30,000 And, and so it very quickly went from possible terrorism tune on 744 00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:35,400 terrorism in, I think the discourse of most or many be 745 00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:41,700 because of who was involved and so terrorism tens in the US 746 00:47:41,700 --> 00:47:46,400 media, I think decreasingly so but it's still tends to be not. 747 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,900 Just the poor guys will or but the foreign guys wore the 748 00:47:50,900 --> 00:47:55,700 dark-skinned guys War. And so, you know, the fact that 749 00:47:55,700 --> 00:47:59,500 most terrorism in the United States is committed by people 750 00:47:59,500 --> 00:48:03,600 from the United States is committed by what are called, 751 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:11,200 white men doesn't fit with people's notion of terrorism and 752 00:48:11,500 --> 00:48:19,000 you know, the the there are similar stories to mcveigh's 753 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:22,800 that are just not acceptable in the US media. 754 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,700 You Talk about the fact that mass shootings today are very 755 00:48:26,700 --> 00:48:30,800 disproportionately committed by Veterans of the US military. 756 00:48:31,300 --> 00:48:37,100 The second you do. So you have somehow insulted all 757 00:48:37,100 --> 00:48:41,300 the great Brave servicemen and women as being terrorists and 758 00:48:41,300 --> 00:48:44,600 mass Killers, even though you haven't right, even though it's 759 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,900 a teeny tiny, tiny, fraction of a percent of people who are mass 760 00:48:47,900 --> 00:48:50,100 Shooters. Almost, nobody is a mass 761 00:48:50,100 --> 00:48:54,600 shooter, but those who are are very Be disproportionately 762 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,200 military veterans, which ought not to be shocking. 763 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,600 People who have been trained and armed in mass shooting and 764 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:09,000 praised for it and then booted out and not given any clear path 765 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:13,200 to a to a good life. After this so-called service. 766 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,300 They've done. Why wouldn't they be? 767 00:49:15,500 --> 00:49:19,200 But you can't talk about that and you can't even talk about 768 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,100 the fact that McVeigh was a military veteran. 769 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,500 What impact that had on his action? 770 00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:31,800 I want to end the World War 2 discussion with the quote from 771 00:49:32,300 --> 00:49:35,400 Winston Churchill's preface and the Gathering storm. 772 00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,400 He said one day President Roosevelt told me that he was 773 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,400 asking publicly for suggestions about what the war should be 774 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:43,800 called. I said at once the unnecessary 775 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,200 War, there never was a war more easily to stop than that which 776 00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,100 is just wrecked. What was left of the world. 777 00:49:49,100 --> 00:49:53,800 From the previous struggle, the human tragedy reaches its Climax 778 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:57,800 in the fact that after all, the exertions and sacrifices of 779 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,400 hundreds of millions of people and the victories of the 780 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,000 righteous, cause we have still not found peace or security and 781 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:05,800 that we lie in the grip of even worse. 782 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,100 Perils than those. We have surmounted Winston. 783 00:50:09,100 --> 00:50:12,900 Churchill, 1948. What can we learn from that 784 00:50:12,900 --> 00:50:16,800 passage? Well, I think he's absolutely 785 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:22,600 right that WWII like every other war or every other major. 786 00:50:24,100 --> 00:50:27,300 Enterprise, that Humanity has produced could have been 787 00:50:27,300 --> 00:50:29,600 avoided. We could have chosen not to do 788 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:34,500 that. And I think if people would 789 00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:40,400 accept the reality of today, the risk of nuclear apocalypse the 790 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,900 incredible Financial expense the incredible damage to 791 00:50:43,900 --> 00:50:47,500 self-governance and government transparency the incredible 792 00:50:47,500 --> 00:50:51,700 environmental damage the fueling of racism and bigotry. 793 00:50:51,700 --> 00:50:56,100 All of the Astrophys that flow out of the military industrial 794 00:50:56,100 --> 00:51:00,600 complex and oppose it, and understand that we could never 795 00:51:00,700 --> 00:51:02,900 have a justifiable war going forward. 796 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,400 Then I wouldn't care what they thought about World War Two. 797 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,500 They could just love the heck out of WWII. 798 00:51:07,500 --> 00:51:10,100 What would I care if they agreed with me going forward? 799 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,200 But it doesn't work that way. They all loved military spending 800 00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,800 and Military Adventures because of World War Two, and the 801 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,900 saturation. Infotainment propaganda. 802 00:51:21,900 --> 00:51:24,900 The Hollywood. The cartoons, the history books 803 00:51:25,100 --> 00:51:29,800 about World War 2, and this is why I think we have to go after 804 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,400 World War 2. And, and in some very weird ways 805 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,500 that seem tangential, right? We have to explain to people 806 00:51:36,500 --> 00:51:39,700 that the Nordic race and the Eugenics came out of the United 807 00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:43,500 States and California that the that the segregation laws were 808 00:51:43,500 --> 00:51:47,000 learned by the Nazis, when they came to study them in the United 809 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:50,700 States, that the practice of genocide in the concentration 810 00:51:50,700 --> 00:51:53,600 camps was a europe-wide and you U.s. 811 00:51:54,500 --> 00:51:58,200 LED Enterprise that it didn't, it didn't originate in Nazi 812 00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:03,900 Germany and this stuff weirdly enough eats away at the WWII 813 00:52:03,900 --> 00:52:08,200 mythology that bizarrely enough supports the military 814 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,000 Enterprise. We're dealing with today. 815 00:52:11,100 --> 00:52:15,700 Did you have an elevator pitch to Veterans when you meet them 816 00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,800 with regard to the anti-war message? 817 00:52:18,500 --> 00:52:20,200 Hi. I'm an associate member of 818 00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,000 Veterans for peace because it is a wonderful. 819 00:52:23,100 --> 00:52:26,400 Ization that let me join even though I'm not a veteran and I 820 00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,800 highly recommend you join them and get to know them or I could 821 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,100 say the same thing with Iraq veterans against the war now 822 00:52:32,100 --> 00:52:37,300 called about face, another wonderful organization, but I 823 00:52:37,300 --> 00:52:43,000 tell them, you know, look, I appreciate what you've been 824 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:44,200 through. I appreciate that. 825 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,100 It's not what I've been through and that, you know, things and 826 00:52:47,100 --> 00:52:48,900 have experienced things that I haven't. 827 00:52:48,900 --> 00:52:55,100 But, let's talk about what you went through and whether it was 828 00:52:55,500 --> 00:53:00,600 worthwhile and whether you would recommend it to kids going 829 00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:04,700 forward because there are veterans even veterans who have 830 00:53:04,700 --> 00:53:09,300 some pride and sense of comradeship with their veteran 831 00:53:09,300 --> 00:53:13,800 status, who think the very most important thing to do is to stop 832 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:19,800 producing more veterans and I agree with them because we need 833 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,000 bravery and solidarity and Brotherhood and Sack. 834 00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:26,400 If ice, if we don't have those, we're not going to survive 835 00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,200 disease. Pandemics forest, fires, Mast 836 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:33,700 floodings and all the catastrophes that we have. 837 00:53:33,700 --> 00:53:39,100 No choice about having to deal with but to have, you know, 838 00:53:39,300 --> 00:53:43,600 heroism and bravery perverted into going out in ginning up 839 00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,500 dangers and catastrophes that we don't have any need of. 840 00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,400 Well, you know, this is a recipe for disaster. 841 00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,900 So maybe let's stop doing that going for us. 842 00:53:53,100 --> 00:53:55,900 Okay, the elevators through the roof by now, but you get the 843 00:53:55,900 --> 00:53:58,100 idea. Final question. 844 00:53:58,100 --> 00:54:00,600 You wrote a book called war is a lie. 845 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:02,900 What is the thesis of your book? War is a lie. 846 00:54:04,100 --> 00:54:07,600 Well, a lot of it is related to what you brought up earlier. 847 00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:11,400 That that they tell you different lies in the middle of 848 00:54:11,408 --> 00:54:14,600 the war and after the war from what they told you before the 849 00:54:14,607 --> 00:54:17,100 war. And so I started out thinking, 850 00:54:17,100 --> 00:54:20,700 well, well I started out, let me try to find an honest War. 851 00:54:20,900 --> 00:54:23,000 Let me try to find a war. That was based. 852 00:54:23,100 --> 00:54:26,400 On straightforward Truth by anybody doesn't have to be my 853 00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:27,800 country. My Century. 854 00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,300 Let me look around. I couldn't find one, couldn't 855 00:54:30,300 --> 00:54:31,800 find one. And well, okay. 856 00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:35,800 Well, let me document all the lies for all the big Wars. 857 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,600 Well, it was gonna be a million page book. 858 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:43,400 So I said, okay, let me do this. Let me give themes of the types 859 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,700 of Lies they tell and some of them are lies. 860 00:54:45,700 --> 00:54:49,000 They tell before Wars. Some are during Wars, some are 861 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,900 escalating War, some are after Wars, and you can have, you can 862 00:54:52,900 --> 00:54:55,300 have Have completely contradictory lies. 863 00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,300 Even at the same stage in a war, right? 864 00:54:58,300 --> 00:55:02,200 We need to go bomb this country because we need to go kill every 865 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,800 last dirt Iranian their evil. We hate them. 866 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:09,300 They're not human or. Let's go bomb Iran for democracy 867 00:55:09,300 --> 00:55:11,200 for the benefit of the good Iranian. 868 00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,400 People are brothers who who deserve our bombs just as much 869 00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,000 as anybody else around the world. 870 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:19,100 You can have those simultaneously and different 871 00:55:19,100 --> 00:55:22,000 sections of the population falling for each one. 872 00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:27,700 And so because we have this history in recent Decades of 873 00:55:27,700 --> 00:55:32,100 pollsters, finding Strong majorities saying award. 874 00:55:32,100 --> 00:55:34,900 Never should have been fought within about a year of it 875 00:55:34,900 --> 00:55:38,700 getting started and then saying that for decades more as it 876 00:55:38,700 --> 00:55:41,900 rolls on, I wanted faster reactions. 877 00:55:41,900 --> 00:55:45,900 I want people prepared to spot the lies more quickly, right? 878 00:55:45,900 --> 00:55:48,700 And, and so, instead of waiting for a Freedom of Information 879 00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:53,600 Act, request decades later to discover that, Ins weren't 880 00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:58,800 there, maybe develop the ability to recognize that weapons. 881 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,100 Being somewhere doesn't justify a war, no matter what. 882 00:56:02,100 --> 00:56:06,300 Even if it's true, if having weapons Justified, getting 883 00:56:06,300 --> 00:56:08,700 bombed, the United States should be bombed, right? 884 00:56:08,700 --> 00:56:13,100 This is insanity. And so it's a guidebook to 885 00:56:13,100 --> 00:56:17,500 spotting the lies immediately without any need for detailed 886 00:56:17,500 --> 00:56:21,800 facts and to confront them immediately and say, no, this is 887 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,800 a fraudulent case. For war, when it might actually 888 00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:29,500 have some impact. As we saw in 2013 on Syria, 889 00:56:29,500 --> 00:56:35,700 2015, on Iran, as we tend to see increasingly people able to spot 890 00:56:35,700 --> 00:56:40,500 War lies and say no, when it matters, not another Iraq, you 891 00:56:40,500 --> 00:56:44,400 know. And and so it's debunking the 892 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:48,600 old war lies like Iraq that helps confront. 893 00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:52,200 The new war lies like Syria because he got Congress members 894 00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:56,300 not wanting to, To be that jerk who falls for another Iraq. 895 00:56:56,700 --> 00:56:59,100 So it's important that we confront the old ones. 896 00:56:59,100 --> 00:57:03,800 Even the big glorious old ones like World War Two but it's also 897 00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:08,000 important that we be able to spot the new ones faster and 898 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:12,500 that that was the idea. The book is leaving WWII behind. 899 00:57:12,500 --> 00:57:16,900 It's been endorsed by Nicholson Baker, author of human smoke 900 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:18,800 Scott. Horton, of course, is called mr. 901 00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:20,700 Swanson. One of the most important peace 902 00:57:20,700 --> 00:57:24,500 activists in the world, please. Check out the book description, 903 00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:27,000 and mr. Swanson's website will be in the 904 00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:28,700 description below. Mr. Swanson. 905 00:57:28,700 --> 00:57:30,000 Thank you so much for your time, sir. 906 00:57:30,500 --> 00:57:32,300 Thank you very much. Appreciate it.