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Vaught has been written by 
Doctor Murray and Rothbard. 

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If you had to recommend one 
thing for people to read, what 

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would it be? 
And what is the lesson from this

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book or essay from Murray 
Rothbard that you'd like to 

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communicate to as many people as
we could? 

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Sure. 
So there's a lot. 

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Yeah, man. 
I mean, there's a lot of, I've 

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heard a lot of different people 
who recommend this book first or

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this book first or or whatever. 
I'm maybe I'm biased 'cause this

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is how I did it, But so I I so I
found Ron Paul and during the 

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Giuliani moment, which was in 
2007, Then I got obsessed with 

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like Googling him and looking 
him up. 

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And I found Tom Woods and Peter 
Schiff. 

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And so I started reading all of 
their books and watching all of 

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their videos and just like, 
obsessing over it. 

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And it was it wasn't. 
It was probably like at least a 

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year or two till I started 
reading Rothbart. 

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I just had heard Tom Woods 
mention Rothbart so many times 

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as like he's the guy that 
eventually I was like I got to 

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read this Murray Rothbart guy 
and I heard Tom Woods. 

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I think I'm trying to remember 
back. 

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I think it was that Tom Wood 
said to read these two essays. 

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I can't remember if that's 
right. 

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But the first two essays that I 
ever read, pamphlets, essays, 

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something the 1st 2 ones I ever 
read were Anatomy of the State 

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and War, Peace and the State. 
And those are the two that I 

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recommend to start with, because
it's just like to me, when I I 

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read those two, it was like it 
was game over. 

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Like there was I was really 
interested in this thing and had

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been interested in this thing 
for a while. 

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But once I read those two essays
now it was like, there's no 

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going back. 
Like I'm I'm here now. 

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And Anatomy of the State is just
like, I truly understood the 

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nature of the state after 
reading that. 

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And war, peace in the state. 
I truly understood the nature of

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war after that and nothing can 
it's it's almost like one of 

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these things that once you learn
it you can't unlearn it And so 

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that's what I would recommend to
people but there are other you 

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know there are other things that
other people recommend more you 

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know Rothbart has like some some
some economic like technical 

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writing that he's done that I 
I've also enjoyed. 

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I mean, I've read, man, Economy 
and State, and I did get a lot 

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out of that. 
And I know that, like, 

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economists will be like, that's 
the one you got to read. 

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But man, there's some, there's 
some Murray Rothbard writing 

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that just punches you in the 
stomach. 

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Like you just, I remember 
reading his stuff once. 

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I started getting obsessed with 
him. 

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Or you start like reading this 
stuff and I'd be reading it 

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alone in my studio apartment in 
Brooklyn, NY, where I was living

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at like 3:00 in the morning. 
Because I'm a weird person. 

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And I was just like doing stand 
up comedy and then coming home 

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to read Rothbard essays that I 
had printed out because I 

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couldn't because I couldn't like
afford books and shit. 

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But I remember just, like, 
reading stuff and putting it 

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down and almost like, looking 
around this apartment with no 

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one in it. 
Like, as if I was looking at 

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someone else. 
Be like, yo, dude, did you hear 

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what he just said? 
But, like the Do you hate the 

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state piece? 
Egalitarianism as a revolt 

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against nature, left right in 
the prospects for liberty? 

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Just like all of these pieces 
were just so powerful. 

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So just like like if you're 
really interested in these 

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ideas, you read that stuff and 
you're just like, yo, I'm never 

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gonna look at anything the same 
after this. 

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And so if you had to give the 
audience the bullet points for 

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anatomy in the state and war, 
peace in the state, what would 

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those bullet points be? 
OK. 

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So bullet points for anatomy of 
the state would be basically 

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it's, it's like what is the 
state Is the question, right. 

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And so you'd say this, what is 
the state? 

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What is the the state For the 
example, what is the federal 

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government in Washington, DC? 
And he would say like, OK, well,

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it's not the people. 
It's not just like everybody is 

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the government. 
The government is us. 

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That's ridiculous. 
If you believe that, then you'd 

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have to be believe that 
6,000,000 Jews committed suicide

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in Nazi Germany, right, If they 
are the government, right. 

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So clearly some people are or 
that, you know, black people 

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enslave themselves in the 18, 
early, 18, late 17, early 1800s 

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or I guess all 17 and early 
1800s, you you know. 

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So that's obviously not the 
case. 

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The government isn't like the 
hills and the land. 

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The government isn't your uncle 
and everyone you love. 

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It's not America. 
That's not what the government 

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is. 
And So what is the government? 

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And the government is a small 
group of people, a concentrated 

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group of people who have the 
legal authority to initiate 

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violence against the entire 
population. 

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And they're essentially a gang 
that completely won. 

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And he kind of goes through 
that, that It's like if if 

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imagine a gang moved in and 
tried to take over a block. 

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Well, now imagine they were more
successful and they took over a 

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neighborhood. 
Well, now imagine they were more

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successful and they took over a 
country. 

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What would it look like? 
The government? 

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That's what it would look like. 
They are the state that's and 

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and there's a lot more to that 
he gets into like the role of 

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intellectuals and the the idea 
of the state constraining itself

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and all of that. 
But I think that's essentially 

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the the argument. 
And then in war peace in the 

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state, basically it the the 
argument is like, OK, if if 

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someone aggressed against you, 
then you have a legitimate moral

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right to recoup that aggression 
or something like that. 

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So if person A violates the 
rights of person B, then they 

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have a right to to go see about 
person A or, you know, recoup 

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what they did. 
But if Person C, who had nothing

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to do with anything, is just 
their rights are violated in 

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that process, then obviously 
that's completely wrong because 

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they had nothing to do with that
And that war, by the very nature

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of war, it means innocent people
being destroyed over something 

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they had nothing to do with. 
And and he breaks it down so 

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much more brilliantly than that.
But to me, that's like kind of 

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the essence of it that you go 
there's no, there's kind of no 

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case where it's ever justified 
to just destroy the lives of 

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people who didn't do anything. 
So no matter what, no matter 

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what Saddam Hussein, this isn't 
in the essay, but this is just 

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me extrapolating from it. 
No matter what Saddam Hussein 

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did, you have no right to just 
incinerate Iraqi children over 

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that 'cause they were they, they
didn't do anything to anybody. 

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And so that's essentially I I 
think the crux of the argument. 

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What do you think is the 
greatest intellectual 

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contribution of Rothbard student
Hans Hermann Hapa? 

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I think his his greatest. 
You know, a lot of people will 

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will point to, you know, 
Democracy, The God That Failed, 

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which is his, his most popular 
book, and a lot of the the kind 

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of moving libertarianism into a 
culturally rightist direction. 

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I think there's a lot of value 
in a lot of that stuff. 

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But I, to me his biggest 
intellectual contribution. 

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And by the way, A Theory of 
Capitalism and Socialism is just

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a phenomenal book, phenomenal 
book. 

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No matter how much you've read 
about like Socialism versus 

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Capitalism, if you haven't read 
that book, you're like, it's 

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it's got some whole new angles 
and new insights that you have 

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to you have to check out. 
But to me, Argumentation Ethics 

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is the that's the one, that's 
the one. 

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And I, you know, OK so for 
people who don't know what 

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Argumentation Ethics is, I've 
talked about it several times on

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the show but basically it's OK. 
So in the in the same way that 

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Mises kind of like would would 
make his line of of 

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argumentation and and Rothbard 
also did this in several of of 

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his works he does this thing 
where he basically starts with 

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like an A priority truth and 
then logically deduces things 

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step by step from that. 
And anyway I I don't want to get

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like too like heady for anyone 
if if you don't know what the 

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the the terms mean. 
It's not like that complicated 

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and and a priori truth just 
means like something you can 

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logically deduce. 
You know like something 

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something that you don't get 
from empirical evidence you just

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get from thinking about it and 
realizing that that's true. 

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And so something like an A 
priori truth would be that two 

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objects cannot occupy the same 
space at the same time. 

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Right. 
So that's an A priori truth. 

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You you don't. 
We can all understand that and 

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just know it's true. 
We don't have to go start 

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testing it out. 
Like you don't have to go around

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and be like let me see if I can 
just force 2 objects together in

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the same space and they're well,
didn't work that time, didn't 

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work that we can logically 
understand that this is never 

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going to work right. 
And so Mises starts his great 

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peace, Human action, but by the 
a priori truth that human beings

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act with the intention for 
certain outcomes. 

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And what what Hapa does is he 
starts argumentation, ethics out

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with people argue. 
And basically where he goes from

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that is he, he has this 
beautiful, like string of 

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logical arguments that if you 
argue at all, you have, if you 

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argue and you're not a 
libertarian, you're 

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contradicting yourself at some 
point. 

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And so, so basically what what 
it is, is that. 

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And look, I'll say this, there 
are people who have tried to 

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poke holes in the logic of this 
and maybe they have 

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successfully. 
I I know Bob Murphy has has had 

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some things to say about this. 
And so I'm not even arguing that

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this is a perfect proof. 
If I'm being completely honest, 

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it's some of when people get 
into the arguments about whether

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he was completely right or wrong
about this, it's it stretches me

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to the limits of my intellectual
capacity. 

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Like, you know, you know, 
sometimes when you, you feel 

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that you ever listen to, like an
astrophysicist talk about 

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something really deep and you're
like, I'm almost ready to tap 

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out. 
Like, I think this might just be

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too, you know, I was listening 
to not an astrophysicist, but 

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just a physicist talking about 
like subatomic particles 

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recently. 
You you want to really have your

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mind blown, listen to some of 
that. 

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Like, this is crazy, Keith, I'll
get back to hapa in a second, I 

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promise. 
But have you seen. 

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OK, so this is a thing that's 
real, that's completely accepted

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amongst physicists, that 
subatomic particles move 

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differently when they're being 
observed first, when they're not

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being observed. 
Did you know that? 

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Have you heard that before? 
I am not familiar with that 

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thesis. 
This is how it can be falsified,

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but that isn't. 
No, no, no. 

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OK. 
So this is what's crazy is that 

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they have a whole way of 
falsifying it, is that they can 

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watch how subatomic particles 
move and kind of track how 

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they're moving, and then they 
can measure that they move 

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different when they're being 
observed versus when they're not

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being observed at. 
Now that that blows my fucking 

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mind. 
That is insane. 

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But when I'm when I'm listening 
to a physicist explain how they 

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know that I'm like, this has 
stretched me to, I'm at my 

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limit. 
I I am not smart enough to 

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00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:05,520
understand this. 
OK, so anyway, so I I'm not 

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claiming that argumentation 
ethics is a perfect proof. 

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00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:14,800
But there is something so 
beautiful about the idea that 

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I'm like, you know, there's 
really something to this. 

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And basically what it is, is he 
goes, OK, look, human beings 

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argue, and once you argue with 
someone, like any type of 

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argument, a political argument, 
it could be a, a, any, any other

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type of argument. 
But as soon as you're arguing 

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with someone and you're trying, 
you're trying to win the 

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argument. 
There are things that you are 

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implicitly accepting when you do
that. 

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And #1 what you're accepting is 
that you prefer non violence to 

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violence. 
You, you, you prefer to persuade

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this person then to just like, 
force them, 'cause if you 

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preferred violence, you would 
just, you wouldn't argue with 

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00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,800
them. 
You would just try to beat them 

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00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:09,560
over the head and and force them
to accept your point of view. 

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And then OK, there's other 
things you're accepting when 

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you're arguing. 
You're accepting that I own my 

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argument and like, I own my mind
and you own your mind because 

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I'm presenting an argument from 
my mind and you I'm. 

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I'm trying to persuade your 
mind. 

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And then from that, you know, 
and there's all these steps that

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he goes through and you real and
and that it's like, look the 

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what we're all accepting when we
do this is that we prefer peace 

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and and norms that allow for 
conflict resolution rather than 

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all at war. 
And then if you realize that I 

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own myself and you own yourself,
and you realize that we prefer 

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to not have conflict, first 
having conflict. 

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Well, then who? 
Hey, who should have control 

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over you? 
I mean, if you have control over

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you, there's no conflict. 
But if someone else has control 

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over you that you don't like, 
then there's a conflict there. 

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And so we prefer we already 
agreed that we prefer not to 

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have this conflict over having 
this conflict. 

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And OK, now also we're going to 
need property in order to live. 

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In order to live, we're going to
have to have some, you know, if 

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there's scarce means, excuse me,
if there's scarce resources and 

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there could be a conflict over 
who gets these resources, Well, 

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we've already agreed that we 
prefer a peaceful resolution to 

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this over a violent resolution 
to this. 

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So then there'd have to be some 
type of property rights where 

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things are assigned to one 
person and not to another 

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person. 
And that's the best way to to 

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resolve a conflict. 
And OK, how do we do that? 

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What's the most just way to do 
that? 

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And he takes it all the way 
through to be like this perfect 

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libertarian argument where like 
is once you start arguing with 

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someone, you're almost conceding
so much of what libertarians 

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believe in. 
And I just think it's the most 

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brilliant thing I've ever heard 
in my life. 

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And then I I I would say so 
that's number one. 

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And then like a close #2 is that
I think Hapa woke a lot of 

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libertarians up to the idea that
the the, the there's this 

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natural tendency that a lot of 
libertarians have that is like, 

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hey, we believe in the Non 
aggression Principle and 

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therefore if someone's not, you 
know, initiating violence 

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against a peaceful person, we 
shouldn't have anything to say 

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about what they do. 
And Hans, Hans Herman Hapa did a

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lot to really to say no. 
In fact, we can have lots of 

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opinions about what that 
person's doing. 

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And in fact, in a private 
property based society, in in a 

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true private law, free free 
society, the property owner gets

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to dictate what the rules are. 
And those rules in many cases 

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might be much harsher than what 
we have under government 

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control. 
And you can see this, I mean, 

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particularly today, I think this
lesson is so valuable where 

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you're like, oh, you know, if 
somebody almost has this kind of

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juvenile interpretation of what 
libertarianism is, which you see

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a lot of times when I talked, 
like I was just talking to 

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Dinesh D'souza the other day and
I talked to like some of these 

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kind of like more right wing 
guys. 

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And. 
And you can see where they'll 

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go. 
Yeah. 

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Well, libertarians say this and 
you're like, no, that's not what

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we're saying at all, where it's 
like, look, let's just say a lot

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00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:38,200
of libertarians have this idea 
that it's like, hey, if you're 

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not doing anything, you know, 
that violates the non Aggression

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Principle. 
You can do whatever you want to 

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do, which is like, OK, kind of 
that's kind of true. 

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But let me ask you this where, 
what's more loosey, goosey, the 

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streets of San Francisco or my 
house. 

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You know what I mean? 
Like, on the streets of San 

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Francisco, some homeless guy can
just be shooting up heroin. 

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But in my house, if you try to 
do that, I will shoot you, 

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00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,640
right? 
So actually, libertarianism can 

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be a thing where it's actually 
much stricter and and much more 

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like, no, you're not going to do
that thing, even though you 

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00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,839
could technically say that's not
violating the Non Aggression 

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Principle or something like 
that. 

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It's like, yeah, well, on my 
property it is. 

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And Hans Herman Hapa has done a 
better job than anyone of like 

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smacking libertarians in the 
face with that reality.