1 00:00:00,700 --> 00:00:04,400 I want to look at some of the people that are related to The 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,700 mises Institute that. I've certainly learned a lot 3 00:00:06,700 --> 00:00:09,900 from, I'm curious what you have learned from these people and 4 00:00:09,900 --> 00:00:14,000 what you think their greatest contribution is to economics 5 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,400 philosophy or history. What is the most important thing 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:19,600 you learned from our contribution of Hans Hoppa? 7 00:00:22,100 --> 00:00:28,000 Well, hop is interesting. I guess it is the application of 8 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:33,600 anarchist Theory to maybe its ultimate end point. 9 00:00:33,900 --> 00:00:39,000 I'm not sure there's a ton more to be done in libertarian theory 10 00:00:39,500 --> 00:00:43,200 in libertarian academic work. I think, you know, you can go 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:45,300 all the way back. You can go back to the 1600s. 12 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,100 You can go back to loud Sue and, you know, you can go back to the 13 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:52,300 levellers but You know, fast forward. 14 00:00:52,500 --> 00:00:55,900 Even in the 20th century. You had people like Morrison, 15 00:00:55,900 --> 00:00:58,800 Linda Tannehill. You had people like Albert, J. 16 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:04,500 Knock who was Anarchist, you had nozick Robert nozick the 17 00:01:04,500 --> 00:01:10,000 philosopher and then along comes rothbard and he takes all of 18 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:16,000 these influences and mixes them together and says, you know, Not 19 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,700 only is there a normative justification? 20 00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:21,200 Not merely a utilitarian justification for a lousy 21 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,200 forever economics. I think that can even be 22 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,100 extended to things that we always thought that the state 23 00:01:27,100 --> 00:01:29,300 had to provide namely National Defense. 24 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:34,800 Police Protective Services fight maybe fire services and also 25 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:36,600 courts. No, no. 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,400 No, we don't even need government for that. 27 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,700 Even these things can be provided privately. 28 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:46,800 So then hop a comes along. And says, well, you know, not 29 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:53,000 only do we not necessarily need a utilitarian justification for 30 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,200 laissez-faire or even a normative rothbard e and ethical 31 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,800 justification for laissez-faire, but just on pure logic alone 32 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,800 using our chip argumentation ethics, we can justify a private 33 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:11,300 or private property Society. You know, that's there are 34 00:02:11,300 --> 00:02:14,600 people in the in philosophy camps, who disagree Leslie with 35 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,700 Hobbes argumentation ethics and there are people in camps of 36 00:02:17,700 --> 00:02:20,800 philosophy and logic, who think it's really a Great Leap 37 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:23,500 Forward. So I'll leave that to people. 38 00:02:23,500 --> 00:02:27,700 But I think, you know, Hopper took anarcho-capitalism I think 39 00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:31,600 about as far as it could go in the conceptual or theoretical 40 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,300 academic realm. I think we sort of reached the 41 00:02:34,300 --> 00:02:35,800 endpoint. There's plenty to do it in 42 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,900 economics, but on pure libertarian Theory, I think 43 00:02:38,900 --> 00:02:40,700 that's about it. So what's far more interesting 44 00:02:40,700 --> 00:02:43,800 today to me are the potential applications? 45 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,200 Something like uber was anarchic in its outset. 46 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,000 They just sort of went into towns and didn't worry about the 47 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,000 taxi regulations and didn't get permits and didn't tell the city 48 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,400 council and just sort of did it. And before you knew it, people 49 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,100 like doober. And of course, Bitcoin is an 50 00:03:01,100 --> 00:03:05,800 example of Applied anarchism in the sense that people are trying 51 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,700 to create a currency completely outside of any state or Central 52 00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:12,700 Bank system. So, you know these applications 53 00:03:12,700 --> 00:03:15,800 really interest me, but that's that's what I've gotten from 54 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:17,600 Hop. I think is just the ultimate end 55 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,000 point of a private Law Society. Most important contribution from 56 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,400 rothbard. Oh boy, for me. 57 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:30,500 That's tough moment. For me. 58 00:03:30,500 --> 00:03:36,800 Personally, rothbard is where I as a lay person have have 59 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:40,000 learned the bulk of any monetary economics. 60 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,900 That I know, rothbard really demystified money for me, and I 61 00:03:42,900 --> 00:03:46,100 don't think you can do that. Purely by studying economics. 62 00:03:46,100 --> 00:03:48,400 I think you need a lot of history to understand money. 63 00:03:48,700 --> 00:03:51,100 You need to know the history of the gold standard. 64 00:03:51,100 --> 00:03:54,400 You need to know a history of Banks and set before sundra 65 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:55,700 Banks. And after you need to know the 66 00:03:55,700 --> 00:03:58,100 history of all those things, like, Bretton Woods and 67 00:03:58,100 --> 00:04:02,600 bimetallism, and you need to know the history, even before 68 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,800 that of kings, and monarchs and sovereigns and their debasement 69 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,800 of the currency. So, I would credit rothbard with 70 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,400 my understanding of money including value, including 71 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:16,100 interest rates. Because, yes, I've read Menger. 72 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:20,500 Yes. I've read bombard work, but it's 73 00:04:20,500 --> 00:04:24,300 rothbard who really interpreted that for me, so that I 74 00:04:24,300 --> 00:04:29,000 understand money and value and interest rates through really, 75 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:31,800 through rothbart. Most important thing, you 76 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:38,700 learned from Ludwig, von mises. Well, I think again, his work on 77 00:04:38,700 --> 00:04:44,900 money is probably the most seminal thing, but viewing 78 00:04:44,900 --> 00:04:51,800 economics as, as a proper social science, which is theoretical 79 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:57,600 rather than empirical in nature. And and praxeological in method. 80 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:02,900 I think that's, you know, nobody has done that better than me, 81 00:05:02,900 --> 00:05:05,700 says, I mean, mises praise. Rothbard's man economy and state 82 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,900 on the grounds that it had taken praxeology further than mises 83 00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:12,800 had. But my fundamental understanding 84 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:17,500 of that still comes from mises. And of course, the theory of 85 00:05:17,500 --> 00:05:20,800 money and credit which he wrote, you know, as a young guy not 86 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:27,000 even 30 and wrote it back and what came out in 1912 just such 87 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,000 a huge achievement, still, probably the best book on money 88 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,400 ever written. Still one that a lot of people 89 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,700 in. Free market and Austrian circles 90 00:05:36,700 --> 00:05:39,500 turn to. So, you know, money and 91 00:05:39,500 --> 00:05:43,900 praxeology are the two things. I've really enjoyed. 92 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,900 Reading about through mises, and can you explain the importance 93 00:05:47,900 --> 00:05:50,700 of having a theoretical understanding of Economics? 94 00:05:50,900 --> 00:05:54,600 Not just an empirical one, where you sort of rely on 95 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,600 peer-reviewed studies. Why is praxeology in the 96 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,900 understanding Of Human Action and its implications important 97 00:06:00,900 --> 00:06:03,900 for someone who wants to understand the economic world? 98 00:06:04,900 --> 00:06:08,700 Well, this is a huge dispute. And of course, I'm firmly on one 99 00:06:08,700 --> 00:06:12,000 side of it. I don't think empirical work. 100 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,500 Is what economics is? That's his debts data. 101 00:06:15,500 --> 00:06:19,200 That's his that's historic work. That's econometrics. 102 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,200 That's math. That's statistics. 103 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,700 That's all kinds of things. Other than what I would consider 104 00:06:24,700 --> 00:06:26,900 Pure or proper economics. And when you say what's, the 105 00:06:26,907 --> 00:06:31,600 importance of Theory, without Theory, you really have nothing, 106 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,500 you know, you can look at data and just see A jumble, I mean 107 00:06:36,500 --> 00:06:39,000 it's economics is a social science. 108 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,300 We have to start with that fundamental understanding and a 109 00:06:42,300 --> 00:06:45,300 lot of people are critical of social sciences via versus the 110 00:06:45,300 --> 00:06:47,500 physical or hard Sciences. I accept that critique. 111 00:06:47,500 --> 00:06:50,000 I think there's a lot of validity to that, but 112 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:51,600 nonetheless, it's a social science. 113 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,000 Social sciences are designed to help us understand the world. 114 00:06:56,300 --> 00:07:01,000 The goal of the social scientist is to help us see the Unseen as 115 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:02,100 best pasta. I would have it. 116 00:07:02,100 --> 00:07:04,700 In other words, you know, we locked down the country for 117 00:07:04,700 --> 00:07:08,300 covid-19, some of the Unseen effects of that. 118 00:07:08,300 --> 00:07:12,200 So, that's what economics is. It's not a matter of observing 119 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,300 data, like you might in a field somewhere, looking at birds and 120 00:07:15,300 --> 00:07:19,600 then, creating a hypothesis from that data. 121 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:21,800 And then going out and further, testing that hypothesis. 122 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:23,100 That's not how I cannot mix works. 123 00:07:23,100 --> 00:07:26,300 Or is supposed to work in my view, and I really like 124 00:07:26,300 --> 00:07:29,200 rothbart's and doubt. He said, what if you brought a 125 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:33,500 martian down to earth? Who had no context for 126 00:07:33,500 --> 00:07:38,800 understanding of Earth or humans at all and just plucked them. 127 00:07:38,900 --> 00:07:42,600 It plop them in the middle of Grand, Central Station in New 128 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:47,000 York City at rush hour, they'd say, well, you know, they all 129 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,100 these human beings are just rushing around because they're 130 00:07:49,100 --> 00:07:51,900 crazy, and they're bumping into each other in there in a hurry. 131 00:07:51,900 --> 00:07:54,300 This would be like, some sort of crazed ant colony. 132 00:07:54,900 --> 00:07:56,800 So if the Martian didn't understand that what they were 133 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,100 doing, was catching a train home from work or whatever, right? 134 00:08:01,300 --> 00:08:05,100 That they have motivations that they have a psychology that they 135 00:08:05,100 --> 00:08:09,600 have axiomatic preferences. Then that Martian wouldn't 136 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,800 really know all that much about Humanity from observing that. 137 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,500 So, you know, I think there's just a fundamental disagreements 138 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:20,100 among economists. Whether this is truly a social 139 00:08:20,100 --> 00:08:24,400 science and and therefore, within the realm of social 140 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:28,700 science method Or whether it's an empirical or data-driven 141 00:08:28,700 --> 00:08:32,100 science, and I'm I'm sure that from my own small perch. 142 00:08:32,100 --> 00:08:34,400 I'm not going to convince the empiricists. 143 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,900 What is the most important thing you learned from? 144 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:40,500 I always get this name wrong. I think it's you again. 145 00:08:40,500 --> 00:08:44,500 Bomba Virg. Yeah, he's he really took 146 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,300 mangers work to the next level. He was more aggressive than 147 00:08:49,300 --> 00:08:51,800 anger. He really went about building an 148 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,600 Austrian School in Vienna. He was more systematic. 149 00:08:55,900 --> 00:08:57,800 In his approach. And he also wrote more than 150 00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:01,500 mangrum anger was supposed to write another book on method 151 00:09:01,500 --> 00:09:02,800 later in his life. And he did. 152 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,000 Well, he was supposed to write more later in his life. 153 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,900 He did right on method, but he never really got depressed and 154 00:09:08,900 --> 00:09:12,200 despondent and didn't finish all of his work, but I'm very, very 155 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,800 clearly explains capital and interest to us. 156 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:20,100 He, in the second volume of his big, his best-known three-volume 157 00:09:20,100 --> 00:09:22,400 set, because you got to understand prior to the 158 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,700 austrians coming along, you know, nobody really understood 159 00:09:25,700 --> 00:09:28,900 me. Nobody really understood value 160 00:09:28,900 --> 00:09:30,900 and nobody really understood interest rates. 161 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,600 So that you know, the the Adam Smith types, the classical said 162 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:39,300 well, why does anyone pay interest? 163 00:09:39,700 --> 00:09:42,600 Well, that's sort of the the cost of capital. 164 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:46,000 You know, that's the that's the income thrown off from capital. 165 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,100 Okay, but that was a little unsatisfying and the Marxist 166 00:09:50,100 --> 00:09:54,300 conception of capita was, well, capitalist exploit people. 167 00:09:54,700 --> 00:09:57,000 That's how they get capital in the first place. 168 00:09:57,300 --> 00:10:03,100 They steal labor from workers. And with this labor that they're 169 00:10:03,100 --> 00:10:06,700 stealing, and skimming off the top, they turn around and loan 170 00:10:06,700 --> 00:10:10,600 that back to those same workers and charge them interest for it, 171 00:10:11,300 --> 00:10:14,800 you know, so the the Marxist explanation of capital, excuse 172 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,100 me, of Interest, charging interest is that this is pure 173 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,000 exploitation. And I haven't heard a Marxist at 174 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:23,800 dressed negative interest rates that we have today. 175 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,800 And I mean nominal, actual stated negative interest rates 176 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:30,200 on, for example, Euros, some Eurozone bonds. 177 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,000 It's like well, what's if If charging interest is 178 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,700 exploitation, what's what's negative interest rates? 179 00:10:35,700 --> 00:10:38,500 Is that capital is subsidizing people. 180 00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:41,300 I mean, this is this is interesting to me subsidizing 181 00:10:41,300 --> 00:10:44,700 borrowers. So Bob ever comes along and says 182 00:10:44,700 --> 00:10:48,800 no, no, no interest is is related to time and the idea 183 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,200 that we want something, we prefer present Goods to Future 184 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,100 goods. And that we have to sort of come 185 00:10:54,100 --> 00:10:58,900 together in terms of Savers and borrowers and figure out an 186 00:10:58,900 --> 00:11:04,300 agreed-upon price to get some To get future Goods today and to do 187 00:11:04,300 --> 00:11:06,100 that, some people have to put money away. 188 00:11:06,100 --> 00:11:10,800 They have to save, they have to produce more than they consume. 189 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:13,500 And that goes back to our earlier point, with Hapa and 190 00:11:13,500 --> 00:11:17,700 capital accumulation. So barbaric is is a really 191 00:11:17,700 --> 00:11:23,000 interesting cat and quite a character and Brilliant very 192 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:29,200 driven and probably the The least appreciated Austrian. 193 00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:35,500 And as far as Carl Menger goes, with his sort of a real 194 00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:38,800 contribution of applying subjective value, and 195 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,800 explaining, its implications. Why is subjective value and 196 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,700 important insight? Well, it explains everything 197 00:11:46,700 --> 00:11:49,200 really. And of course mises took that 198 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,100 subjectivity and applied it to money, which it, which is 199 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:57,900 something that mango didn't quite get easy to say, in 200 00:11:57,900 --> 00:12:02,600 hindsight, of course, but the idea that we value things on the 201 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:07,300 margin based upon how much of it we have and what an additional 202 00:12:07,300 --> 00:12:11,800 unit means to us is, is so, it seems so simple to us today, 203 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,900 but, you know, going back to the Is this was it was just 204 00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:18,400 conceptually a very different world, economics was not a 205 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,800 standalone discipline. It wasn't a field of study 206 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,100 really a standalone field of study until the 20th century. 207 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,500 I mean economics was just sort of bound up with logic and 208 00:12:29,500 --> 00:12:31,600 philosophy and history, and all kinds of things. 209 00:12:31,700 --> 00:12:34,100 And in many ways. It's probably better off bound 210 00:12:34,100 --> 00:12:36,000 up with those things. I think it was maybe a better 211 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,700 discipline. But so he comes along and says, 212 00:12:38,700 --> 00:12:42,300 you know, Nobody seems to understand value. 213 00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:47,700 Why is it that we would pay way more for a diamond ring? 214 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:49,400 Then we would have gallon of water. 215 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,100 Well, it turns out that depends the Diamond Water Paradox. 216 00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:55,900 It depends if we're in the middle of the desert. 217 00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:58,500 We haven't had anything to drink for two days. 218 00:12:58,500 --> 00:13:02,900 We would gladly give up our diamond ring for just a glass of 219 00:13:02,900 --> 00:13:08,500 water, much less a gallon of it. So, you know value depends on 220 00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:10,600 the individual circumstances. Circumstances, which is another 221 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:16,200 way just saying it's subjective. And so everybody values, things 222 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,500 differently value is something that a consumer of something 223 00:13:19,500 --> 00:13:21,900 experiences. It's not really something that a 224 00:13:21,900 --> 00:13:24,600 producer produces. This is a new understanding we 225 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,300 have now in entrepreneurship and that, you know, when we say, why 226 00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:31,100 does it an iPhone have value? Well, it has value because in 227 00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:33,900 the hands of the consumer there's an experience or a 228 00:13:33,900 --> 00:13:38,900 desire there. And so we don't understand how 229 00:13:38,900 --> 00:13:42,500 different people Value things, other than, in order, we don't, 230 00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:45,100 we can't assign Cardinal values to things. 231 00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:49,100 We can only say that I prefer, let's say a Honda to a Toyota 232 00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:52,000 because I looked at both and I bought a Honda okay, but we 233 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,500 can't say how much more I prefer, you know, XU tiles of 234 00:13:55,500 --> 00:13:57,600 haunted to why you tiles of Toyota. 235 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,700 That's just those kind of comparisons really don't work. 236 00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:03,900 And that's that's unfortunately, too much of what economics tries 237 00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:07,300 to do. So generally speaking, we know 238 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:09,300 that the more you have of something in the world. 239 00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:11,200 Plentiful. It is the less you tend to Value 240 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:13,900 it. So if somebody is dead broke and 241 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:17,700 struggling in life. And you give them a million 242 00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:20,900 dollars where they earn a million dollars, their life is 243 00:14:20,900 --> 00:14:23,800 radically changed. Because now they have a house, 244 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,100 they have food. They have future Security money 245 00:14:28,100 --> 00:14:30,700 to live off. They have health insurance. 246 00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:33,200 They have, if they have children, they now have 247 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,200 something to their children like college money or whatever. 248 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:36,200 It might be. Okay. 249 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,200 So from 0 to 1 million in net worth is a big deal. 250 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:46,500 But if you give if Bill Gates, wer to urn or to be given an 251 00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:49,200 additional million dollars today, his life would be largely 252 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,100 unchanged because he's a billionaire and so on the 253 00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:55,900 margins and additional million dollars, is he values? 254 00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:57,900 Far less. Presumably than most people do, 255 00:14:57,900 --> 00:15:01,600 we can't know how much less and there are some people who are 256 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:03,600 just wired that no matter how much they have a something. 257 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,500 They have ten houses. They, they work, you know, 258 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,400 morning till till, you know, Dusk to Dawn. 259 00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:14,200 Have an 11th house because they're just hyper competitive 260 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:15,500 and that's the kind of person they are. 261 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:21,600 But you know, these, what mango helped us understand along with 262 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,000 others in the in the 1880s. When the marginalist revolution 263 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,800 happened, along with Leon varis and William, Stanley jevons was 264 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,000 that, you know, value is subjective and therefore, 265 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,900 interpersonal comparisons of value or well-nigh impossible. 266 00:15:37,900 --> 00:15:40,600 And that was that's that was really groundbreaking. 267 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,700 Heady stuff at the time and it still is. 268 00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:45,200 I mean, conceptually, it's still fun to talk about. 269 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,900 What is the most important thing you learned from Frederic 270 00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:52,900 bastiat? Well, you know, the seen and the 271 00:15:52,900 --> 00:15:56,800 Unseen is something that goes through everything. 272 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,500 I mean, it's it, you see it every day. 273 00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:03,100 You've seen it so much in the last year with covid, you know, 274 00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:07,100 these politicians and these would be doctors and scientists 275 00:16:07,100 --> 00:16:09,800 making these pronouncements about how things are going to be 276 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,900 without any understanding of the Unseen. 277 00:16:12,900 --> 00:16:15,800 Right? I mean, you can say we're having 278 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:20,100 a mortgage and rent payment moratorium. 279 00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:22,600 No one. It can be evicted or foreclosed 280 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,500 upon and if they don't pay their rent or mortgage, you know, 281 00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:28,000 between now and X date. And that's been extended a few 282 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,500 times depending on which they were talking about. 283 00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:33,400 Well, what what seen what's easily visible to us is, hey, 284 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,500 there's that nice family down the street. 285 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,700 They have a couple little toddlers because of co-ed the 286 00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:42,200 husband or wife lost their job. And without this moratorium. 287 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,000 They would have stopped making mortgage or rent payments. 288 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,400 They be out. They'd have to go live on the 289 00:16:46,408 --> 00:16:48,300 streets or they'd have to go live with Grandma or they'd have 290 00:16:48,300 --> 00:16:51,400 to sleep on a friend's couch. And so And I could look at that 291 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,500 and that's the scene we said. Oh, well, you know this, this 292 00:16:56,300 --> 00:16:59,300 this very kind-hearted, compassionate government policy 293 00:16:59,300 --> 00:17:02,700 has made it possible for this lovely family down down the 294 00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:05,300 street, which I like to remain in their home. 295 00:17:05,700 --> 00:17:07,599 Okay? Well, that's good. 296 00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:09,900 It's good that they're in a home. 297 00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:13,500 We all get that. But what you can't see is spread 298 00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:16,599 out across Society is the cost of all these mortgage companies 299 00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:18,500 on these landlords not getting paid. 300 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,900 And that that She's not just in dollars and cents right here 301 00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:25,099 right now, a year after covid or whatever. 302 00:17:25,099 --> 00:17:29,000 I mean that will Ripple out through the economy in 303 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:34,600 unbelievably difficult ways to to Envision for years and years 304 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,600 to come. I mean, fewer and fewer people 305 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,700 will want to be landlords small landlords because they'll say 306 00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:44,300 what happens with the next pandemic, you know, I don't want 307 00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:47,400 to be in this business of owning apartment buildings or condos or 308 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,000 something. When my, when every time there's 309 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,300 some sort of emergency to It says my my tenants don't have to 310 00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:56,600 pay so that will shift a lot of housing ownership and a lot of 311 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,600 landlording to Big private Equity firms to venture capital 312 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:06,000 firms to you know, investment Banks, which are already buying 313 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:07,300 up. Lots and lots and lots of 314 00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:09,500 property because they figure they can get some of the stuff 315 00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:13,200 on the cheap and they can they have enough money on like a 316 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,600 small landlord to ride out the moratorium and then when the 317 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,900 moratoriums over and you know, they'll raise rents, right, you 318 00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:22,600 know, house Will be worth more and they'll make a ton of money. 319 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,300 So that's just the kind of unseen Distortion in. 320 00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:30,300 Just one little sliver of the housing market that that will 321 00:18:30,300 --> 00:18:34,300 result from covid. So, you know, bastiat told us 322 00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:37,200 and and some of our understanding Basquiat us 323 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,900 through the great Henry has it. We can't just look at the, you 324 00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:44,600 know, immediate effects of a policy on one group of people. 325 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,600 The immediate effect is that family down the street is not 326 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,400 tossed out. We have to look at the 327 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,800 long-term. Effects on everybody. 328 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,200 And the long-term effects of this moratorium are going to be 329 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,300 higher housing costs. And so that's going to be born 330 00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:02,500 by everybody and there's going to be some other family down the 331 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:06,600 road who's perhaps can't buy a house or rent a place because of 332 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,700 this. And so, that's how we have to 333 00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:12,300 look at things. We have to understand that every 334 00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:17,200 policy has ramifications. And frankly, if we hadn't had a 335 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:22,200 rent and mortgage moratoriums. It would not have been in 336 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,200 landlords interest in most cases. 337 00:19:24,700 --> 00:19:26,800 It would not have been in mortgage companies interest in 338 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:29,700 most cases just toss people, right out and go. 339 00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:33,300 I mean, you know in the middle of a covid lockdown, there's not 340 00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:37,600 necessarily a bunch of new people with with jobs meaning 341 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,800 credit worthy to move in. So it would have been in their 342 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,400 interest to perhaps negotiate maybe except half rent for a 343 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,900 while. Maybe quarter rent, maybe tack 344 00:19:46,900 --> 00:19:48,300 it onto the future, you know, whatever. 345 00:19:48,300 --> 00:19:50,400 It might be. They're they're men. 346 00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:52,100 In isms that this could have worked itself out. 347 00:19:52,100 --> 00:19:55,700 Not, I always thought that a great private approach would 348 00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:57,900 have been to have these worthless State Bar 349 00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:03,500 association's, which plagued all 50 states have all their 350 00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:05,800 lawyers. Do some free loitering and sit 351 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,700 down at, you know, local City Halls or malls or wherever 352 00:20:09,700 --> 00:20:12,300 people can get together and negotiate help. 353 00:20:12,300 --> 00:20:17,600 Negotiate, you know, Lisa's with people who were unable to pay. 354 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,300 But, you know, instead we had this moratorium, which is a 355 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,900 Heavy-handed one-size-fits-all government edict and you know, 356 00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:28,400 bastiat is going to be Vindicated once again, two more 357 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:29,700 questions for you. Mr. Dice. 358 00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:31,300 Thank you so much for being generous. 359 00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:33,800 So what with your time? Most important thing you learned 360 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,800 from Walter block? No Walter. 361 00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:39,100 Yes. Yep. 362 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,400 Walter irritates me. Sometimes with his endless 363 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,500 Lifeboat scenarios. What if, what if this and that I 364 00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:50,600 don't like that way of looking at libertarianism because I 365 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:54,900 think instead of trying to create a purely consequentialist 366 00:20:55,700 --> 00:20:57,400 system. That's got an answer for 367 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,900 everything. I think we ought to be a lot 368 00:20:59,900 --> 00:21:02,700 more humble in our libertarianism and say, you 369 00:21:02,700 --> 00:21:04,600 know, it's not perfect. It's just better. 370 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,700 We're not Utopia nests. We're simply muddling through 371 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,400 that's what human history is about. 372 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:14,200 It's about muddling through and rather than Grand ideological. 373 00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:22,100 Or statist or nationalist, you know Endeavors, we can simply 374 00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:26,300 allow cooperation through the marketplace to help us muddle 375 00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:30,700 through better in a Kinder and more efficient and fairer and 376 00:21:30,700 --> 00:21:34,000 more just way. So that's you know, where as 377 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,800 Walter is very much in the consequentialist end of 378 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,500 libertarianism and I've started to have some disagreements with 379 00:21:39,500 --> 00:21:44,200 him on the concept of harm. You know, what is harm? 380 00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:46,800 A Libertarian Society, I think in the digital age. 381 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,500 We have to change our thinking, a little bit of that on that. 382 00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:52,700 And that it's not just physical aggression or physical trespass 383 00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:56,700 on land or physical theft. I think in the digital era 384 00:21:56,700 --> 00:22:01,700 there, there are types of harm which ought to give rise to tort 385 00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:05,200 action in. You know, that that so comport 386 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,200 with libertarian legal Theory and I think Walter block very 387 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:10,900 strongly disagrees with this. But what I've learned I suppose 388 00:22:10,900 --> 00:22:16,000 from Walter is, you know, just Just the ability to make 389 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,700 Arguments for anything because that's that's his specialty and 390 00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:27,100 his privatization of everything is really incredibly intriguing 391 00:22:27,100 --> 00:22:29,100 to me. And so I do have my 392 00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:35,000 disagreements with him on open borders, on defamation to an 393 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,300 extent and on actionable. Tort, you know, what constitutes 394 00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:43,400 harm and a Libertarian legal Theory, but, you know, he's he's 395 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:44,900 like like hop. APPA. 396 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,200 He's taken it about as far as it can go. 397 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,500 And he's done us a huge service in that sense and that he has 398 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:58,800 forced us to sort of tease out and consider the implications of 399 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,100 the things we Advocate. And I think that's important. 400 00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:04,800 Final question. If you could recommend one book 401 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,900 for everyone in the world, to read you only get one. 402 00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:12,300 Everyone will read it. What book would you choose? 403 00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:16,200 Everyone in the world. I think it would have to be 404 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,000 Henry had since economics in one lesson because that book isn't 405 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,500 just economics. I mean it's couched as such, but 406 00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:25,100 its first of all it's very readable. 407 00:23:25,500 --> 00:23:28,600 Second of all, it's not ideological e heavy-handed so it 408 00:23:28,608 --> 00:23:29,900 wouldn't turn off a bunch of people. 409 00:23:29,900 --> 00:23:35,800 Necessarily third is that it has Standalone chapters, which if 410 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,800 read without reading the rest of the book would help people 411 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:45,700 understand minimum wage. Rent, control tariffs full 412 00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:49,700 employment, you know, so that's one of the great achievements of 413 00:23:49,708 --> 00:23:51,900 that book is that, you know, you don't have to read it cover to 414 00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:55,900 cover to benefit from it. And finally, he's a journalist. 415 00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:59,300 He's not an economist now, he's self-taught Economist and a 416 00:23:59,308 --> 00:24:01,500 great Economist, one of the great Economist the 20th 417 00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:05,300 century, but he's not an academically trained Economist 418 00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:09,700 and because he's a hellacious journalist who wrote it by his 419 00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:12,400 estimation, some like 10 million words in his lifetime. 420 00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:16,900 Yo, it's very very readable Lively Pros on every page. 421 00:24:16,900 --> 00:24:20,200 You're not plodding along and it's you know, it's very, very 422 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:21,800 short. You can read it and in a couple 423 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,300 hours so that if I had to choose one, that would be, it 424 00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:29,000 capitalism is essentially a system of mass production for 425 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,100 the satisfaction of the needs of the masses. 426 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,900 It pours, a Horn of Plenty, upon the common, man. 427 00:24:34,900 --> 00:24:37,800 It has raised the average standard of living to a height. 428 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,500 Never dreamed of an earlier ages. 429 00:24:39,700 --> 00:24:42,600 It is made accessible to millions of people enjoyment. 430 00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:46,800 A few Generations ago or only Within Reach of a small Elite. 431 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,400 Thank you to everyone for watching Keith Knight. 432 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,200 Don't tread on anyone in the libertarian Institute Mister 433 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:52,700 diced. Thank you so much for your time. 434 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:54,200 Keith. Thank you.