1
00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:03,800
Welcome to Keith's night. 
Don't tread on anyone. 

2
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:05,900
And the libertarian Institute 
today. 

3
00:00:05,900 --> 00:00:09,700
I am joined by Bob Spenser. 
He is a social studies teacher, 

4
00:00:09,900 --> 00:00:14,300
national teacher Hall of Fame 
class of 2020 to mr. 

5
00:00:14,300 --> 00:00:16,300
Fenster. 
Thank you so much for your time.

6
00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:18,200
Thanks so much for having me. 
Keith. 

7
00:00:19,100 --> 00:00:24,600
Why is history important? 
That's the big question for day.

8
00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,900
One. 
Pretty much of most most social 

9
00:00:27,900 --> 00:00:32,200
studies teachers classes and it 
was the question that in some 

10
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,800
ways. 
I used to ask my, my mother when

11
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,500
I would come home frustrated, 
why we had to learn about 

12
00:00:37,500 --> 00:00:41,000
ancient Mesopotamia, but there's
yeah, we can go to George. 

13
00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,700
Santa Anna's famous line about 
those who do not remember their 

14
00:00:44,700 --> 00:00:49,500
history are condemned to repeat,
it learning about the mistakes 

15
00:00:49,500 --> 00:00:54,400
of history is Really important. 
I don't really buy the fact that

16
00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,300
you know, history doesn't really
repeat itself. 

17
00:00:56,300 --> 00:01:00,800
But if we don't actually look at
the lessons of History, then we 

18
00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:03,700
can repeat aspects of it. 
So for me, that's the most 

19
00:01:03,700 --> 00:01:08,000
important piece of it and making
decisions about public policy 

20
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,000
and where we should go moving 
forward. 

21
00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,000
That should all be informed by 
our history. 

22
00:01:14,100 --> 00:01:17,600
What differentiates a good 
historian from a bad historian. 

23
00:01:19,100 --> 00:01:23,700
Well, first of all, of course, 
everything Should be rooted in 

24
00:01:23,700 --> 00:01:28,300
facts and evidence. 
Unfortunately, well, I'll tell 

25
00:01:28,300 --> 00:01:31,600
you a little something that I 
don't always I don't always 

26
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,300
share with people and I briefly 
thought about being a historian 

27
00:01:35,300 --> 00:01:40,600
myself, but my problem was 
figuring out, what, what 

28
00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:42,900
original thing I could bring to 
the table. 

29
00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,100
When I would do, when I was 
doing research on South Africa, 

30
00:01:47,100 --> 00:01:50,100
South African apartheid, and the
history of the, in the 20th 

31
00:01:50,100 --> 00:01:52,800
century. 
I wrote a 50-page Paper. 

32
00:01:53,100 --> 00:01:56,200
And my professor came back to me
and said, okay, you've 

33
00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,400
summarized all of the 
information that you found in 

34
00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,000
mostly secondary sources. 
What's the new thing? 

35
00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,000
What are you, what are you going
to add? 

36
00:02:05,300 --> 00:02:08,900
And I think the important thing 
for a good historian to be able 

37
00:02:08,900 --> 00:02:15,700
to do is is offer interpretation
that is rooted in facts and 

38
00:02:15,700 --> 00:02:18,800
rooted in the evidence that they
can provide. 

39
00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,900
But one thing that we need to 
Absolutely. 

40
00:02:22,900 --> 00:02:26,800
I need to absolutely stress is 
that history is always going to 

41
00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:31,600
be open to interpretation. 
And there's I would argue that 

42
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,200
there's there's like a spectrum 
of acceptable interpretation 

43
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,600
where you can say, okay? 
That's rooted deeply that's 

44
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:44,900
that's in trench to enough in 
the facts to provide that spin 

45
00:02:44,900 --> 00:02:50,000
or that that take on it as 
opposed to the reinvention and 

46
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,100
appropriation of history for 
political. 

47
00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:56,300
Says, which happens, I would 
say, all over the, the 

48
00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,500
multi-dimensional political 
Spectrum. 

49
00:02:59,500 --> 00:03:02,900
What is the difference between 
history and social studies? 

50
00:03:05,900 --> 00:03:10,100
Social studies encompasses a 
variety of fields, besides 

51
00:03:10,100 --> 00:03:14,400
history, political science, 
economics, sociology psychology,

52
00:03:15,500 --> 00:03:19,600
all of all in and more history 
is more. 

53
00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,300
The focus. 
Of course what happened and how 

54
00:03:22,300 --> 00:03:26,800
we interpret, what happens? 
When it comes to finding 

55
00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,400
accurate sources, of course, we 
might all agree that it's 

56
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,700
important to find accurate 
sources, but not agree on what 

57
00:03:33,700 --> 00:03:36,800
sources are accurate. 
How can we determine whether or 

58
00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:43,700
not a source is accurate? 
One of the, I think pushes in 

59
00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:50,700
recent pedagogy for educators, 
has been to do more with primary

60
00:03:50,700 --> 00:03:55,600
sources. 
Now, of course that can't be the

61
00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,700
solution and the direct answer 
to your question, because we 

62
00:03:59,700 --> 00:04:02,000
know that primary sources 
themselves are not always going 

63
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:05,000
to be reliable, particularly 
when it comes to people's 

64
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,000
journals. 
And you know what their their 

65
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,500
memory of what happened? 
Maybe Shaped in a particular 

66
00:04:11,500 --> 00:04:13,000
direction or not, but there are 
some things. 

67
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,500
There are some primary sources 
which are really going to be 

68
00:04:16,899 --> 00:04:21,700
there almost, wouldn't be in a 
reason to lie to fake when the 

69
00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:26,100
statistical data, you know, the 
census that sort of thing. 

70
00:04:26,100 --> 00:04:29,300
Of course, there can be a range 
of, you know, a margin of error 

71
00:04:29,300 --> 00:04:34,500
I suppose in data collection, 
but when we can, when we start, 

72
00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:38,500
they are, when we start with 
looking at the actual 

73
00:04:38,500 --> 00:04:41,900
documentation, we have and look.
Looking at what people at the in

74
00:04:41,900 --> 00:04:45,000
the time period said about it. 
Everything does have to be 

75
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:46,800
considered through a particular 
filter. 

76
00:04:47,100 --> 00:04:49,300
I mean, I think students have 
the hardest time. 

77
00:04:49,300 --> 00:04:52,500
Many students have a really 
difficult time with social 

78
00:04:52,500 --> 00:04:54,800
studies or with history and 
particular because unlike 

79
00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,100
science and math where there is 
a correct answer to a but you 

80
00:04:59,108 --> 00:05:01,200
know, it's you know, it's 
binary. 

81
00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:05,300
It's always going to be somewhat
difficult but getting back to 

82
00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:10,400
your question. 
I think there's there's a Not 

83
00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:12,300
that we have to do. 
And whether we're talking about 

84
00:05:12,300 --> 00:05:16,600
history or even current events 
to vet the sources that we use. 

85
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:19,800
There's there's a lot of things 
that we have to consider about 

86
00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,100
credibility and it's it's not 
easy. 

87
00:05:24,100 --> 00:05:27,500
Sometimes we are going to rely 
on short, you know, we don't all

88
00:05:27,500 --> 00:05:29,800
have the time to vet every 
single source. 

89
00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:35,500
So you rely on on things like 
the publisher or the the audio 

90
00:05:35,500 --> 00:05:38,200
of the actual author. 
Those are the shortcuts that 

91
00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:42,800
everybody's going to have to 
take and And ultimately, I mean,

92
00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,400
I would also say that normally 
the normal approach would be to 

93
00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,300
say, well, if if most of the 
sources are saying something, 

94
00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:53,200
then that's probably true. 
Unfortunately that often is not 

95
00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,800
the case and there are certain 
legends that get handed down 

96
00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,000
that become truisms. 
That are not either. 

97
00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,500
So I haven't really answered 
your question other than be 

98
00:06:01,500 --> 00:06:05,700
skeptical and and do the best 
you can to try to filter out the

99
00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:08,800
nonsense. 
What are some of the most 

100
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,400
misunderstood or Appreciated 
historical events. 

101
00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,800
That's a great question that 
ultimately will depend on on who

102
00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,100
were measuring. 
You know, who are we talking 

103
00:06:21,100 --> 00:06:23,900
about the American population, 
and we talking about the even 

104
00:06:23,900 --> 00:06:27,300
among the educated Elite. 
So, to speak, for me. 

105
00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:31,800
I would go right to my single 
favorite Topic in American 

106
00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,200
history, is reconstruction. 
And I think the conventional 

107
00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,300
wisdom on that, that or most 
people seem to think that 

108
00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:43,500
reconstruction was a failure, 
for example, and part of it. 

109
00:06:43,700 --> 00:06:47,700
Just in the phrasing for me. 
I don't think Reconstruction was

110
00:06:47,700 --> 00:06:49,500
a failure. 
I think Reconstruction was 

111
00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:54,300
derailed by mal-intent by 
cowardice. 

112
00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:57,600
And to some extent by practical 
reality on the part of you 

113
00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:02,400
couldn't get Northern 
Republicans to continue for more

114
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:05,300
than a dozen years, trying to 
support causes that were hurting

115
00:07:05,300 --> 00:07:10,200
them politically, but the spin 
that people have on that is, is 

116
00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,000
often just just flatly 
Incorrect. 

117
00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:17,400
And I think Has led to a lot of 
the problems that never fully 

118
00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,700
resolved in the Civil Rights 
Movement. 

119
00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,800
I mean, going back further. 
Obviously the Civil War, you 

120
00:07:22,808 --> 00:07:24,400
know, there's there's 
undoubtedly millions of 

121
00:07:24,407 --> 00:07:28,300
Americans who still interpret 
that as being about something 

122
00:07:28,300 --> 00:07:31,800
other than slavery. 
And that's like to me that, you 

123
00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,100
know, anybody who, I mean, I 
don't encounter those people, 

124
00:07:34,100 --> 00:07:36,100
very often. 
I'm happy to say that my 

125
00:07:36,100 --> 00:07:38,100
students. 
I don't I no longer have to 

126
00:07:38,108 --> 00:07:41,400
spend a great deal of time 
telling my students about 

127
00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,200
Columbus, you know, about the 
truth about You know, a more 

128
00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,900
balanced account of Columbus or 
the truth about the Civil War. 

129
00:07:48,900 --> 00:07:52,100
They, they've been taught that. 
So there has been some kind of 

130
00:07:52,100 --> 00:07:54,700
Correction made at least in New 
Jersey. 

131
00:07:55,300 --> 00:07:57,900
I can't, I can't and at least in
the town that I teach and I 

132
00:07:57,900 --> 00:08:00,300
can't speak to many other 
places. 

133
00:08:02,300 --> 00:08:07,000
So reconstruction, is that for 
American Elites or the average 

134
00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,200
American populace? 
Would you say I would say the 

135
00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,500
average person doesn't even know
what reconstruction is. 

136
00:08:12,500 --> 00:08:16,700
I mean, I'll be brutally honest.
I don't remember. 

137
00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,100
I don't remember ever learning 
about reconstruction myself as a

138
00:08:20,100 --> 00:08:23,600
student in New Jersey. 
We teach us history over the 

139
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:28,100
course of two years and the 
dividing line is usually the end

140
00:08:28,100 --> 00:08:31,200
of reconstruction, but I don't 
know what your experience was. 

141
00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:36,200
In high school, but US, history 
teachers are kind of notorious 

142
00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,200
for running out of time. 
And and the last thing that and 

143
00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,200
and at this time of year where 
we're in the waning days of the 

144
00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:47,400
school year, in New Jersey, it's
hot and nobody wants to be 

145
00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,400
there. 
They're looking out the window. 

146
00:08:49,900 --> 00:08:52,500
I don't know if I was taught and
didn't pay attention or they 

147
00:08:52,500 --> 00:08:56,700
never got to it in u.s. 
To just as a this this may be an

148
00:08:56,700 --> 00:08:59,100
apocryphal story. 
But it really it works. 

149
00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,300
I've been telling it for at 
every back-to-school night. 

150
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:07,100
For 29 years at the end of u.s. 
To my teacher said, oh, that's 

151
00:09:07,100 --> 00:09:09,300
how we won. 
World War 2 and there were two 

152
00:09:09,300 --> 00:09:11,300
more Wars after that, but don't 
worry about it. 

153
00:09:11,300 --> 00:09:15,200
It's not on the final. 
And so that's that was not very 

154
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:17,700
helpful to somebody who wanted 
to talk about politics and 

155
00:09:17,700 --> 00:09:22,400
government in the current day. 
Those are the things that, you 

156
00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,100
know, the that I. 
But what were the most 

157
00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:31,300
interesting to me as far as most
misunderstood historical events.

158
00:09:31,500 --> 00:09:34,900
We among the American Elite so 
to speak. 

159
00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,900
What would you say is? 
Are some of those events. 

160
00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:45,000
That's a good question. 
I don't know. 

161
00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,300
I don't know exactly. 
I bet I set up that exam. 

162
00:09:47,300 --> 00:09:48,900
I set up that dichotomy. 
I suppose. 

163
00:09:48,900 --> 00:09:51,300
I should have been prepared 
better prepared to answer it. 

164
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,400
My guess I would just lean on 
something that I think applies 

165
00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:59,000
to everybody, but also to those 
who are educated or well 

166
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,200
educated and attentive. 
I just think that's so much of 

167
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,300
our Reliance on are worshipping 
of the Founding Fathers. 

168
00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:12,400
As demigods is something that I 
just think it, frankly is 

169
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,500
childish. 
I think it's true of any. 

170
00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:18,100
I mean, I grew. 
I mean, I'm maybe I'm strange, 

171
00:10:18,100 --> 00:10:21,800
but I didn't have Heroes. 
I had people, I looked up to but

172
00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,900
I didn't have people who I 
worshipped wanted to put on a 

173
00:10:24,900 --> 00:10:28,500
pedestal and as a teacher, one 
of the things that I really 

174
00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:32,300
strive to do is humanize 
individuals, you know, and I'm 

175
00:10:32,308 --> 00:10:34,700
not just talking about, you 
know, Washington and Jefferson 

176
00:10:34,700 --> 00:10:39,500
owned slaves or enslave people, 
but I the, the flaws that they 

177
00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:43,100
had the mistakes that they made 
to me, actually make what they 

178
00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:45,300
do. 
The accomplishments that they 

179
00:10:45,300 --> 00:10:50,200
had better, that these are not 
Flawless human beings. 

180
00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:53,300
That these are flawed human 
beings who stepped up at a 

181
00:10:53,308 --> 00:10:56,700
moment, of Crisis and, and did 
some incredible things. 

182
00:10:57,700 --> 00:11:02,600
But the idea, for example, that 
the constitution was fully 

183
00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,700
realized. 
It's exactly what they wanted. 

184
00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,800
Nobody wanted. 
The Constitution, The Way It Was

185
00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,000
Written. 
It was a, it was no one. 

186
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,100
No one's been able to figure out
who actually said the line. 

187
00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:17,500
A bundle of compromise. 
Izes, but it has been clearly. 

188
00:11:17,500 --> 00:11:20,500
Nobody got what they wanted. 
And if nobody got what they 

189
00:11:20,500 --> 00:11:23,500
wanted, then they none of them 
had the perfect vision going in.

190
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,000
They accept that. 
You, they came up with something

191
00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,100
that enough people, not everyone
that enough people could accept 

192
00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,700
and it's worked pretty well, but
it's also not a Flawless 

193
00:11:34,700 --> 00:11:36,500
document made by Flawless 
people. 

194
00:11:37,900 --> 00:11:43,100
Do you think that Elites will 
generally sort of push myths? 

195
00:11:43,100 --> 00:11:47,000
So to speak in order to have a 
nation be able to Rally around 

196
00:11:47,100 --> 00:11:50,400
one core belief system? 
So they could have something in 

197
00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,200
common. 
So when they pledged their 

198
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,400
allegiance, they can recognize 
this guy. 

199
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,400
Joe Biden is the current 
president. 

200
00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,000
This is who we're going to more 
or less listen to for the next 

201
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:01,900
four years until the next 
person. 

202
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,300
Isn't that sort of how Nations 
will get people on the same page

203
00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:09,300
either by by getting them on the
same myth or having them 

204
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,000
identify with a certain set of 
events. 

205
00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:18,200
I think. 
Yes, and yes, but or yes, and I 

206
00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,500
really should say absolutely. 
I think that there is, there's 

207
00:12:21,500 --> 00:12:26,400
always a narrative that that is 
pushed by by whoever is in power

208
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,600
by the and and not even 
necessarily be elected power 

209
00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,300
people, the moneyed interests, 
whatever, whatever phrase you 

210
00:12:32,300 --> 00:12:35,700
want to use influential people. 
I also think there's a 

211
00:12:35,708 --> 00:12:37,900
benevolent. 
See to some extent. 

212
00:12:37,900 --> 00:12:42,600
It's that things align that way.
And people want to join the 

213
00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,600
team. 
I mean, I don't know, this is 

214
00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:50,000
far afield, but you know, I 
don't care who wins the 

215
00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:54,300
Olympics, I like sports. 
But why do I care that? 

216
00:12:54,300 --> 00:12:56,700
The United States is winning 
versus somebody else. 

217
00:12:56,700 --> 00:13:01,500
It doesn't? 
It II have not been given the 

218
00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:05,400
gene. 
I suppose or Fallen prey to the,

219
00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:07,700
we have to band behind. 
And this and this is this is 

220
00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:11,200
what brings us together. 
I'd rather ideals. 

221
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,800
And I, you know, of Liberty and 
freedom be the things that bring

222
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:19,000
us together rather than three 
colors and three letters. 

223
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,900
Is it maybe? 
Because understanding things 

224
00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:29,600
like ideals or any abstract 
concepts are just too costly for

225
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:34,200
330 million people to get on the
same page for you need something

226
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,300
almost immediately. 
Identifying that guys, waving 

227
00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:41,000
the flag Hills, guys, waved the 
same flag, or on the same team. 

228
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,200
And what do you think about 
rawls's theory of Justice? 

229
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,000
I mean, that would be a little 
difficult. 

230
00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:48,600
Is it? 
Maybe you need something? 

231
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,400
So, Important motive. 
I don't know something. 

232
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,900
So immediate that instantly 
identifies. 

233
00:13:55,100 --> 00:13:59,100
Good guys from the bad guys. 
I think you make a great 

234
00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:01,900
argument. 
I think to some extent, that's 

235
00:14:01,900 --> 00:14:05,400
true. 
I wish I wish we had a less anti

236
00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,500
intellectual culture. 
I mean, I'm I'm not pretending 

237
00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:13,500
that I'm, I don't have my own 
brainless activities that that, 

238
00:14:13,500 --> 00:14:19,100
you know, that that I connect 
to, I am a New York Yankees fan 

239
00:14:19,100 --> 00:14:22,500
because I'm From New Jersey, you
know, like it that there are 

240
00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:26,200
things that, you know, that that
we are not necessarily resistant

241
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,900
to, there are reasons why people
don't want to spend the time 

242
00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:35,000
reading philosophy and and it's 
simpler. 

243
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:36,800
And they can, they can find an 
enjoyment. 

244
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,900
We all root for somebody even if
it's not for, you know, whether 

245
00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:43,000
it's sports or anything out 
television shows, we find people

246
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,800
to root for. 
We found things to root for and 

247
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,200
so sure when there is a tide 
going in One Direction. 

248
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,100
It's I think it's very easy. 
For people to join that. 

249
00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:53,300
And I'm not saying these 
necessarily anything wrong with.

250
00:14:53,300 --> 00:14:57,300
It's just a matter of. 
I wish people were a little bit 

251
00:14:57,300 --> 00:15:01,600
more deliberate in their thought
processes, what differentiates a

252
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:08,700
good teacher from a bad teacher?
There are probably a hundred 

253
00:15:08,700 --> 00:15:09,900
ways. 
I could answer that question. 

254
00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:12,200
I mean there, there there's a 
lot of bad teeth. 

255
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,000
There's a lot of both. 
I would say, you know, 

256
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,700
obviously, the most obvious 
thing would be a bad teacher is 

257
00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:20,600
one who doesn't care about their
students. 

258
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:25,100
Who doesn't, who doesn't, you 
know, see, see them as 

259
00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:30,400
individuals who just comes in 
with a negative attitude about 

260
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:35,700
the kids these days and doesn't 
doesn't have any The flexibility

261
00:15:36,300 --> 00:15:40,100
for me. 
What I've always prided myself 

262
00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:44,800
on is to borrow a phrase, or to 
contort a phrase. 

263
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,100
I've always believed in building
the more perfect classroom where

264
00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:52,200
I want my students to, like, I 
never, I'm never satisfied with 

265
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,200
anything that I do constantly 
reworking it from from year to 

266
00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,300
year. 
And sometimes from the first 

267
00:15:58,300 --> 00:16:00,300
period that I taught something, 
and then teaching it later in 

268
00:16:00,308 --> 00:16:04,400
the day, making making 
adjustments because it lives in 

269
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,600
it. 
You know, it's a living thing 

270
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,400
that what I'm providing in the 
classroom. 

271
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,000
The other piece of that I would 
I would also make a quick note 

272
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,200
of, I mean there was an old. 
I mean you may not be familiar 

273
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,300
with the phrase or something 
audience might not be the sage 

274
00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:22,600
on the stage versus the guide on
the side. 

275
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,900
The sage on the stage was the 
teacher, who has all the 

276
00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:28,400
knowledge and just imparts their
wisdom to the class. 

277
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,700
Whereas the guide on the side, 
helps them find their way to to 

278
00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:38,500
their own understanding. 
Standing of the material and I 

279
00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:40,900
frankly, I think we're, we 
probably should be somewhere in 

280
00:16:40,900 --> 00:16:44,800
between because I've benefited 
pretty greatly from really good 

281
00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:49,000
teachers and college professors 
who have done the work and can 

282
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,300
actually you know, this nothing 
wrong with a really good lecture

283
00:16:51,300 --> 00:16:55,000
every once in a while as long as
it once again, we go back to 

284
00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:59,800
grounded and rooted in facts and
evidence, but I think that's 

285
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,200
that's it. 
It's ultimately comes down to 

286
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:06,000
caring about about what you do. 
And not just pulling up lesson 

287
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:07,800
plans from last year, this 
worked last year. 

288
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:12,099
Let me just do it again and not 
even think about One of your 

289
00:17:12,300 --> 00:17:15,200
former students was Nina 
jankowitz. 

290
00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:22,700
She has more or less gotten very
heavy-handed treatment from 

291
00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:26,400
people like Fox on Twitter. 
A lot of people were very upset 

292
00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,800
that this governance 
disinformation board was pushed 

293
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,900
by Homeland Security as big 
haters of George w-- Bush. 

294
00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:37,600
We hate the DHS and everything 
that comes from it. 

295
00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,600
Is there anything that has gone 
under appreciated? 

296
00:17:40,900 --> 00:17:45,700
From Miss jankowitz or the 
governance disinformation board.

297
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:52,800
The yes, quite a bit. 
I mean, I was not. 

298
00:17:53,100 --> 00:17:55,400
I knew that she had been 
appointed to be the head of the 

299
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,700
decision disinformation 
governance board, but I didn't. 

300
00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:01,400
And that it was newly created. 
And I didn't know what exactly 

301
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,300
it was. 
So I looked it up and it says 

302
00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:08,400
the board's function is to 
protect National Security by 

303
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:13,500
disseminating Guidance to DHS 
agencies on combating foreign 

304
00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:16,500
misinformation Mal information 
and disinformation. 

305
00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:22,300
Terrible name, terrible name, 
but a perfectly reasonable 

306
00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:26,600
Mission. 
Considering the sheer amount of 

307
00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:31,900
disinformation that was produced
in the last decade by countries 

308
00:18:31,900 --> 00:18:34,600
that are that are supposed to be
our enemies or that are, I 

309
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,400
should say that. 
That should be considered our 

310
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,600
enemies in many respects, 
Russia, and China, and Iran. 

311
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,500
And the other, the biggest 
thing, the most important thing 

312
00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:46,400
to note, and I mean, I looked at
the various. 

313
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,900
Politicians. 
I mean, they're the the hatred 

314
00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:52,200
on Twitter. 
I Stephen King actually tweeted 

315
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:56,700
out his support for Nina and I 
just I put a benign comment, 

316
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,900
which was simply that she's one 
of the one of the best people. 

317
00:18:59,900 --> 00:19:01,800
I know. 
And then I throw in the fact 

318
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,700
that I've been a huge fan of 
yours for 40 years. 

319
00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:12,100
I got 100 to 150 tweets about 
how much of a kiss-ass. 

320
00:19:12,100 --> 00:19:16,400
I must be, you know, a moron. 
I'm, you know, brown-noser. 

321
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,400
All of this stuff. 
And then just one thing after 

322
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,800
another attacking Nina, through 
me or just attacking me my 

323
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,600
handle. 
It's I forgot. 

324
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,400
My Twitter name is at HHS. 
Fenster. 

325
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,100
HHS is the school I teach at 
Hillsborough High School, but 

326
00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:36,300
the genius has assumed that I 
was a, I was working for Health 

327
00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:38,900
and Human Services, and I was, 
you know, just another 

328
00:19:38,900 --> 00:19:41,700
government. 
Lackey working for Joe Biden 

329
00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:44,200
defending her. 
All I actually, I didn't say a 

330
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,000
word about the disinformation. 
Governing board. 

331
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,400
All I said was she's one of the 
best people. 

332
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,100
I know, you know, she's a really
good person. 

333
00:19:51,900 --> 00:19:55,600
Now, the other thing that so 
then I actually looked at some 

334
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,800
politicians comments and they 
were way off base as well. 

335
00:19:59,500 --> 00:20:02,200
The Secretary of Homeland 
Security, said that the board 

336
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,800
would have no operational 
Authority. 

337
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,400
None. 
It would just collect best 

338
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:11,600
practices to give out to the 
other agencies and asserted that

339
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,500
the board would do no monitoring
of American citizens. 

340
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:21,600
This is strictly about Russian 
disinformation, you know, pick 

341
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,600
your country. 
China Etc, efforts by a foreign 

342
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:29,300
countries to interfere with our 
politics mean has actually 

343
00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:32,300
written a, you know, wrote a 
book about this was just why big

344
00:20:32,300 --> 00:20:35,500
reason why she was going going 
to be heading the governance 

345
00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:37,700
board, before she ultimately 
decided to resign. 

346
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,500
And in the book, lays out, just 
the sheer amount of of 

347
00:20:42,500 --> 00:20:45,300
interference through, you know, 
through the Twitter Bots and 

348
00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:47,300
face. 
Facebook fake Facebook accounts 

349
00:20:47,300 --> 00:20:51,800
that they have group, you know, 
fake, AstroTurf organizations, 

350
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,900
that they've that they created, 
the evidence is overwhelming, 

351
00:20:55,900 --> 00:20:59,200
but back to that issue of some 
people don't actually care about

352
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,000
evidence and just Twisted it to 
their own, I guess political 

353
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,400
game. 
I certainly get that there can 

354
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,500
be disinformation from the 
Kremlin or from Tehran or 

355
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:13,500
Beijing. 
I just think that it's important

356
00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:17,000
to have the same standard for 
the DHS. 

357
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,800
For example, Hillary Clinton 
falsely said, on the 

358
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,500
presidential debate stage that 
17 intelligence agencies 

359
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:29,100
confirmed that Russia interfered
in that Russia was behind the 

360
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:32,000
hacking of her emails. 
The New York Times retracted, 

361
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:37,000
that story June, 29th of 2017, 
Joe Biden on the debate, stage 

362
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:42,400
said that the hunter Biden 
laptop was a Russian plant that 

363
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,100
was confirmed by the New York 
Times. 

364
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:50,500
Earlier this year, along with 51
Intelligence Officers 5c for CIA

365
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:53,100
directors, from both parties. 
At also said that. 

366
00:21:53,100 --> 00:21:56,200
So, my problem is not that 
everything that Putin says is 

367
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,300
true. 
It's just this shortcoming in 

368
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,200
China. 
And Russia also applies to 

369
00:22:02,300 --> 00:22:03,700
America. 
Can you see why? 

370
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:07,100
A lot of citizens would not 
trust the government to be a 

371
00:22:07,300 --> 00:22:10,200
good Arbiter of truth from 
fiction. 

372
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,000
Well, again, I don't. 
The idea is it's not a fact, 

373
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,900
checking organization on 
American citizens or even 

374
00:22:17,900 --> 00:22:20,500
American politicians. 
It's not supposed to be a fact, 

375
00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:22,600
checking thing about the United 
States at all. 

376
00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:27,400
It's about what are the idea 
that this is would be based in 

377
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,900
homeland security. 
It's important that the 

378
00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:35,700
information that we get is able 
to be Be properly sourced and 

379
00:22:35,700 --> 00:22:38,500
identified. 
And so what they, what the idea 

380
00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:41,000
of this organization who knows 
if it's even going to exist 

381
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,200
because they did such a great 
job of the the enemies of the 

382
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:50,000
folks on the far right. 
Did such a wonderful job of you 

383
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,300
know of mischaracterizing this. 
But the idea would be that we 

384
00:22:54,300 --> 00:22:58,300
don't want foreign enemies 
manipulating our common 

385
00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:02,500
understanding of what the truth 
is and I have no problem. 

386
00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:05,000
I'll of fact-checking I think 
What you're getting back to your

387
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,400
an earlier question, you asked. 
I mean, there's several 

388
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,000
different independent 
fact-checking organizations that

389
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:15,300
do wonderful work that I consult
on a fairly regular basis when 

390
00:23:15,300 --> 00:23:18,200
I'm not sure about something, 
you know, just just as a quick 

391
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,400
example, you know, like 
pro-choice people are seeing all

392
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:27,600
over my feed, you know, saying 
that 191 Republicans voted 

393
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,400
against formula, you know, a 
providing formula to poor people

394
00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:36,500
and while There is a vote in 
which a hundred, I think 191 

395
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,300
they voted against a bill. 
That's not exactly what the bill

396
00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:42,700
was and and those in facts 
matter. 

397
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:47,600
And I I I bristle whatever when 
anybody, you know, right, left, 

398
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,300
libertarian, whatever they might
be, just finesses the facts to 

399
00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:54,800
their the way they want them to,
to try to get across to score 

400
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,700
political points, but this isn't
supposed to be about political 

401
00:23:57,700 --> 00:23:58,500
points. 
This is about. 

402
00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:02,400
Hey, let's make sure that we 
understand that they're trying 

403
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,200
to manipulate us. 
And let's not Let them do that 

404
00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:08,400
in a debate. 
I mean that's there's there 

405
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,400
several organizations that do 
live fact, checking and the 

406
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,300
truth usually comes out about 
about those sorts of things 

407
00:24:16,100 --> 00:24:20,600
until unfortunately the the last
president of the United States 

408
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,200
broke records with the amount of
just made up stuff that he would

409
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,400
say. 
And and then and then people who

410
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,600
supported him stop paying 
attention to the fact Checkers 

411
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,200
because the that was 
inconvenience. 

412
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,100
And so now those are, you know, 
those have been discredited in 

413
00:24:33,100 --> 00:24:35,900
their minds. 
And we end up with this weird 

414
00:24:35,900 --> 00:24:39,500
situation where people make up 
their own facts and then he cut 

415
00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:43,800
off the ability for the public 
to determine how many civilians 

416
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,900
are murdered in drone strikes. 
So yeah, this is like every 

417
00:24:47,900 --> 00:24:51,200
other thing. 
We we are getting it from from 

418
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,000
both sides. 
How would you determine if I was

419
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,500
informed or misinformed on 
politics in general? 

420
00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:05,800
I that's interested. 
Keep that I've listened to a few

421
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,000
of your shows. 
And you know, we we have some 

422
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,000
areas of agreement in some areas
of disagreement on politics and 

423
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:17,900
on philosophy, but I haven't I 
haven't caught you in anything 

424
00:25:17,900 --> 00:25:20,800
that I would say was a, you 
know, a flagrant Whopper of a 

425
00:25:20,808 --> 00:25:25,200
distortion of facts. 
You just, you know, you had you 

426
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,000
just had some it's a great 
tactic. 

427
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,800
I'm not suggesting you were you 
were not Accurate. 

428
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,400
But to throw in dates, you know,
it's she said this on this date 

429
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,200
and, you know, that's something 
that one could easily 

430
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,400
fact-check. 
So I mean, it's just a matter. 

431
00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:41,300
I don't. 
I mean it's not really my 

432
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:47,000
exactly my my job or my, you 
know, to sort those things out 

433
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:52,500
but I I think you matter of one 
of the biggest things is you 

434
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:54,700
know, when someone says 
something that sounds too good 

435
00:25:54,700 --> 00:25:57,700
to be true or sounds incredible.
Well, you gotta, you gotta check

436
00:25:57,700 --> 00:26:01,100
that fact and I I find more 
often. 

437
00:26:01,100 --> 00:26:05,100
I'm my engagement in political 
conversation, tends to happen 

438
00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:09,500
more digitally, you know, online
on Facebook and that least, then

439
00:26:09,500 --> 00:26:13,100
you have the opportunity to 
instead of live in the moment, 

440
00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:15,900
look up what the facts are. 
So when people will frequently, 

441
00:26:15,900 --> 00:26:19,700
distort things you can actually 
find out that that's true. 

442
00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:21,700
I will say not knowing you at 
all. 

443
00:26:21,700 --> 00:26:25,500
You do seem very well-read and 
very well informed, you know, if

444
00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:28,300
we were actually going to have a
debate of some kind, I would I'd

445
00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:31,400
have to bring my a game. 
Well, thank you for saying that,

446
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,300
and I wasn't necessarily using 
me as an example, even though I 

447
00:26:35,300 --> 00:26:37,800
specified myself. 
What I meant to say, was 

448
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:42,300
something like, a lot of people 
will say, gosh, you know, I'm 

449
00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:44,700
really informed. 
It's just those other idiots in 

450
00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:47,900
the world. 
So we're all saying that we're 

451
00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:51,100
the right side and are a puppet.
The world would be great if it 

452
00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:53,500
just wasn't for our stupid 
opponents. 

453
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,600
So how can we actually determine
who was informed and who is 

454
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,900
misinformed? 
And the reason I use myself as 

455
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,100
Say, is there something you 
would ask me? 

456
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,900
Is there something you would 
look to see if I knew about 

457
00:27:05,900 --> 00:27:08,200
this? 
If I understood that, if I had 

458
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,100
how much humility I had with 
regard to things. 

459
00:27:11,300 --> 00:27:15,300
I didn't know. 
So it was using myself as an 

460
00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:19,800
example of how individuals can 
talk to their loved ones or 

461
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,300
whoever they're fighting with 
and get a general idea of you 

462
00:27:23,300 --> 00:27:25,900
who was informed or misinformed 
in their life. 

463
00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:29,900
Considering this is like the 
root of, of all love so much. 

464
00:27:30,100 --> 00:27:32,200
Tension in the country at this 
time. 

465
00:27:32,300 --> 00:27:35,200
You have maybe a litmus test or 
maybe some criteria. 

466
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,400
Some people can actually ask 
them to ask others when they're 

467
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,900
in person to determine whose 
informed or misinformed. 

468
00:27:42,100 --> 00:27:44,800
I don't have a question, a 
specific litmus test or anything

469
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:46,800
like that. 
But one thing you said, which is

470
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,500
to me, that is sort of like, at 
least my online litmus test is 

471
00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:55,800
people not being 100% sure of 
everything that they say or 

472
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,800
being willing to say you made a 
good point. 

473
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,000
You know, I see your eyes. 
See your point or even, I can 

474
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,400
see that part of it, that 
argument was good. 

475
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,500
Let me back off. 
I overstated it. 

476
00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:10,300
Let me, you know, recalibrate 
that I mean, I think that is so 

477
00:28:10,300 --> 00:28:11,200
sorely. 
Missing. 

478
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,500
You know, I'm not a Libertarian 
but I have sympathy for someone 

479
00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:19,000
from any of the views of 
Libertarians and I'm I was 

480
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,200
excited to have this 
conversation with you and I hope

481
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,700
that at some point I can have 
you on my own podcast, you know,

482
00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:27,100
so we can talk about and we can 
actually talk about the 

483
00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:31,900
philosophy that you ascribe to. 
I think the exchange of ideas is

484
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,000
is hugely important related to 
that. 

485
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,500
I teach AP US Government Vance 
placement US government and on 

486
00:28:39,500 --> 00:28:42,600
the AP exam. 
There was a question where 

487
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,200
students are supposed to make. 
It's called the argument essay 

488
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,600
and they can have whatever 
argument they wanted, doesn't 

489
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,000
matter. 
Just they have to they have to 

490
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,600
root it in a one of the required
documents that they're provided.

491
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,100
But one way that they're graded 
is on whether they have a 

492
00:28:56,100 --> 00:29:02,800
rebuttal or a concession and And
I always tell my students. 

493
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,800
I don't care if it's easier to 
write a rebuttal. 

494
00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:08,900
What's do, you know what they're
looking for? 

495
00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:14,500
Is some lame, you know, like 
some some people say, such and 

496
00:29:14,500 --> 00:29:18,400
such, but they're wrong because 
this, it's childish, bad 

497
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,900
writing, that they learned in 
middle school about how to write

498
00:29:20,900 --> 00:29:22,000
a persuasive. 
Essay. 

499
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,200
Is you set up a straw man. 
You give him a terrible argument

500
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,300
and then you say that why the 
argument is wrong? 

501
00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:32,500
I tell them right. 
A Start your start, your thesis 

502
00:29:32,500 --> 00:29:36,700
statement with although give 
away something to the other side

503
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:39,100
or a different side. 
I should say. 

504
00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:41,700
I always want to be careful not 
to say there's two sides to it 

505
00:29:41,700 --> 00:29:44,100
to a different side. 
Although admittedly. 

506
00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:48,900
This is a problem on the whole. 
This is the position I hold. 

507
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:52,700
And so for me, that's the litmus
test is, can I can I talk to 

508
00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:55,900
somebody and may not be about 
being informed or not, but it's 

509
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:58,800
about, can I have a conversation
with somebody where an exchange 

510
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,600
of ideas can actually make Make 
both of us. 

511
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:06,000
Better off for it. 
So, I haven't looked at the 

512
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,200
population numbers in the 
countries that are generally 

513
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,700
mentioned when it comes to 
enemies of America. 

514
00:30:13,700 --> 00:30:18,400
But if it's Syria, North Korea, 
Iran, that sometimes China. 

515
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,200
But but certainly Russia, at a 
point like this with sanctions 

516
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:24,800
and everything. 
It's got to be something like 

517
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:29,100
1.5 billion people between all 
those countries. 

518
00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:33,600
Is it fair to say those 
countries are Knees of America 

519
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,900
or is it may be more accurate to
say the current ruling classes 

520
00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:40,600
of these countries are not on 
the same page, but we should 

521
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,600
still see populations in other 
countries as fellow human beings

522
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,200
who should be treated with 
dignity. 

523
00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:50,000
So we don't justify things like 
sanctions which killed a ton of 

524
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:56,700
kids in Iraq, in the 90s. 
Sorry, if that was leading it. 

525
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,500
I mean, I I have I'd certainly 
have sympathy for that position 

526
00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:04,400
for the general position. 
I I mean, obviously the human 

527
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,700
part of it is that there's no 
way to there's no way to 

528
00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:08,000
disagree with that answer. 
Of course. 

529
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,500
These are all human beings. 
Many of whom are victims of 

530
00:31:12,100 --> 00:31:17,600
circumstance of being powerless 
in a regime, where weather is 

531
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,400
brutal mistreatment of anybody 
who steps out of line. 

532
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,500
I mean to some extent you could 
make the same argument about 

533
00:31:23,500 --> 00:31:26,400
American about some Americans 
who have, you know, whatever 

534
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:31,500
your political ideology is, you 
know, you and I probably I vote.

535
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,700
Doesn't mean that I'm 
represented. 

536
00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:38,400
My Views are not usually rep are
often not represented. 

537
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,100
And you know, although I don't I
can't complain about. 

538
00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:47,200
I'm not living in North Korea, 
you know, I can certainly I do 

539
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,500
have sympathy for for those 
people sanctions. 

540
00:31:52,100 --> 00:31:54,000
That's a tough one. 
I mean, I don't know that 

541
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,700
sanctions. 
I mean, I'm no expert on foreign

542
00:31:56,700 --> 00:31:59,700
policy. 
I do know that sanctions were 

543
00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:01,700
pretty pretty effective in South
Africa. 

544
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,300
There certainly are 
ramifications and when the 

545
00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:09,800
ruling class what or the woman 
in this case a dictator has no 

546
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,400
heart whatsoever and doesn't 
care about his own people passes

547
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,600
the buck along to them and 
they're the ones who ultimately 

548
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,000
suffer. 
I mean, I think it's more, it's 

549
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,200
a complicated issue where your 
whether you're, you know, maybe 

550
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,700
you're trying to foment 
Revolution or you're trying to 

551
00:32:25,700 --> 00:32:29,400
Garner sympathy from from third 
parties that aren't even, you 

552
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,500
know, the ones that are directly
involved. 

553
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,200
My ultimate, I'm just not 
prepared to make a to, to 

554
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,000
completely agree with you, but I
understand and appreciate the 

555
00:32:41,008 --> 00:32:44,200
position. 
The reason is because there is 

556
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:49,000
an alternative view, even though
I did not lay out a, a very 

557
00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:53,500
unbiased position here. 
But people like, even on our 

558
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:57,300
side, a lot of us were ashamed 
to hear the head of the Ian Rand

559
00:32:57,300 --> 00:33:00,300
Institute, yaron Brook, talk 
about how you know, killing 

560
00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:02,400
civilians and Hiroshima and 
Nagasaki. 

561
00:33:02,700 --> 00:33:06,300
Look at what how evil emperor 
Hirohito was to. 

562
00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:09,900
Which we said the civilians are 
not Hideki. 

563
00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:13,300
Tojo or, you know the ruling 
class in Japan, he goes well, so

564
00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:16,900
what it's not like those people 
were working to overthrow the 

565
00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:19,100
current regime in Japan. 
They were more or less 

566
00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:23,700
co-conspirators by living there.
And basically, we were just 

567
00:33:23,700 --> 00:33:26,900
shocked to see him say this. 
And we're like, all right. 

568
00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:30,100
Let's give him the 48-hour rule.
He's going to apologize and 

569
00:33:30,100 --> 00:33:32,300
clarify and of course he doubled
down. 

570
00:33:32,500 --> 00:33:35,700
So when I hear something like 
that, come from my side, we're 

571
00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:38,800
all terribly ashamed. 
Because that is a point of view.

572
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,000
Let's go bomb, Iraq, let's bomb 
Afghanistan. 

573
00:33:42,300 --> 00:33:47,300
And if we generalize in those 
terms, were much less likely to 

574
00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:52,300
engage in a pollicis of a policy
that consists of humanity or 

575
00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:55,700
anything like that and much more
likely, I think to engage in an 

576
00:33:55,700 --> 00:33:59,200
aggressive policy that provokes 
other nations and creates more 

577
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,400
enemies than friends. 
Is that stupid. 

578
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,900
You've fairy tale land that I'm 
living in. 

579
00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:09,600
Or is there any any possibility 
that the you're on? 

580
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,300
Brooks of the world are 
incorrect? 

581
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:15,900
Well, I'll go with you as far as
saying that the yeah, that's an 

582
00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:19,100
awful statement. 
It reminded me like the store. 

583
00:34:19,100 --> 00:34:20,600
You just shared was the 
anecdote. 

584
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,600
You just shared reminds me of 
that that moment in I couldn't 

585
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:28,600
tell you what year 2012 2016 in 
a republican debate that when 

586
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,900
Ron Paul was running and he was 
asked to ask the loaded 

587
00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:34,500
question. 
About people without health 

588
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:35,100
insurance. 
Do we? 

589
00:34:35,107 --> 00:34:39,600
Let them die in the street and 
one person in the audience? 

590
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,800
You just heard him yell. 
Yeah. 

591
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:48,500
It's like, no, no, like that. 
That's not what any human being 

592
00:34:48,500 --> 00:34:53,300
should be saying, I mean, I 
think, obviously, we, there are 

593
00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:58,200
times where I guess, realpolitik
plays a role where the powers 

594
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:02,000
that be, you know, dropping the,
a bombs in the grand scheme of 

595
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,100
things. 
Be saved. 

596
00:35:03,100 --> 00:35:05,500
Human lives was a heart. 
I mean, the way the way to 

597
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:08,600
phrase that if you want to make 
the argument would be, that it's

598
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,900
a tragedy that these people died
but it's saved a million live or

599
00:35:11,908 --> 00:35:13,900
whatever. 
Not magical number, your magical

600
00:35:13,900 --> 00:35:15,500
thinking number, you're going to
come up with. 

601
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,200
I don't subscribe to that 
particular point of view, but I 

602
00:35:19,207 --> 00:35:22,400
think that there's a way for us 
to carve out and develop a 

603
00:35:22,408 --> 00:35:25,200
foreign policy. 
That's more Humane than drone 

604
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,800
strikes and assassinations and 
and indiscriminate bombings. 

605
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,300
That's that's kind of what 
Vladimir Owens doing right about

606
00:35:33,300 --> 00:35:37,200
now and that's that's we we 
should be condemning that just 

607
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,800
as we should be condemning it 
when our own government does it?

608
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,500
What were some of the biggest 
takeaways you learned from 

609
00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:47,000
studying apartheid in South 
Africa? 

610
00:35:51,100 --> 00:35:57,600
For me, the, the power of 
resistance and agency was was 

611
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,000
something that I learned before 
those words. 

612
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,300
Well, resistance was, what was 
obviously a word. 

613
00:36:02,300 --> 00:36:05,600
I didn't know the word agency in
the way that it is commonly used

614
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,400
today, where, you know, people 
are making decisions for 

615
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,200
themselves even oppressed people
and and for me, the as a 

616
00:36:13,207 --> 00:36:17,100
teacher, the thing that I've 
concentrated on the last several

617
00:36:17,100 --> 00:36:21,500
years has been trying to make 
sure that I talked about 

618
00:36:21,500 --> 00:36:24,600
marginalized people, whoever 
they are throughout American 

619
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,300
history. 
Obviously slavery is the most 

620
00:36:26,300 --> 00:36:29,400
obvious one, but there are 
plenty of other groups that you 

621
00:36:29,408 --> 00:36:34,400
can that you can look at as 
well, that any distance you just

622
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,000
going back to the Ian, Rand 
person. 

623
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,200
You mentioned, you know, that 
their co-conspirators, of 

624
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:41,500
course, they're not 
co-conspirators. 

625
00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:43,800
But if they were to stand up to 
the government, they would have 

626
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,200
got like, overtly they'd be shot
in the head and that's it. 

627
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,700
That's not a, that's not a 
viable option but instead. 

628
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:56,800
Ed of looking at people who are 
victimized as victims, to take a

629
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,500
closer look and see what, what 
did they do in their lives 

630
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:01,500
enslaved. 
People. 

631
00:37:01,500 --> 00:37:07,800
Obviously, some of them escaped.
Others sabotage, the, you know, 

632
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,100
the the processes in their 
Plantation or factory or 

633
00:37:11,107 --> 00:37:14,800
wherever they would be working. 
So I'm poisoned, you know, they 

634
00:37:15,300 --> 00:37:19,600
poisoned their and slavers 
others harmed themselves there 

635
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:24,400
was or they A culture that was 
they created a new culture out 

636
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,200
of whole cloth because that was 
the best way that they could 

637
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,600
kind of almost get revenge. 
Instead of conforming, they 

638
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:36,000
created something of their own. 
There's lots of different ways 

639
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,200
that that happened, and 
obviously, that something was 

640
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,000
happening in South Africa. 
And a brutally oppressive regime

641
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:47,700
where people were relocated to 
the word just every relocated 

642
00:37:47,700 --> 00:37:50,700
not allowed to leave their these
horrible fake. 

643
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:54,500
Lands forced to carry a pass if 
they were even given Furnishing 

644
00:37:54,500 --> 00:38:00,500
to go anywhere. 
Brutally murdered if they 

645
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:04,400
offered any kind of resistance. 
So, I mean that to me that was 

646
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,500
it was inspiring to see that 
this generation of leadership 

647
00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:12,000
that came of age in the 1950s 
led by Nelson Mandela, but many 

648
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,100
others like Oliver Tambo and 
Walter sisulu. 

649
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:20,700
They were they were people who 
again, not Heroes but heroic and

650
00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:24,800
and so that was something that I
certainly got out of that study.

651
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,000
So, what would you say, were the
main factors and taking South 

652
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,800
Africa, from apartheid state to 
where it is? 

653
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,200
Now? 
I know you mentioned sanctions 

654
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,900
earlier. 
What are some of the sanctions 

655
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,000
that you thought were most 
effective? 

656
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,100
Is that where the Beatles 
wouldn't go and play? 

657
00:38:41,300 --> 00:38:45,300
Or was that America? 
I think it was America under Jim

658
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:46,800
know. 
Now that I say it out loud. 

659
00:38:47,300 --> 00:38:49,400
Yeah, I'll be, they'll be a 
little earlier. 

660
00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:53,700
I mean, there was the, the 
boycott of of entertainment in 

661
00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:57,300
South Africa was for there. 
Las Vegas, like like resort 

662
00:38:57,300 --> 00:39:02,400
called Sun City. 
Where many performers decided to

663
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,200
that, you know that they weren't
going to play for the white. 

664
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,400
The rich white Elites who were, 
you know, getting there who are 

665
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:14,400
exploiting the 78% of the 
population to have to live the 

666
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,000
lives. 
They LED again. 

667
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,500
I like the my focus was more on 
the early part of that. 

668
00:39:20,500 --> 00:39:24,700
But I mean, my understanding was
Farhan pressure was a huge part 

669
00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:28,500
of it. 
It was just the the, it wasn't 

670
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:33,500
even sanctions. 
But the divestment was, it was 

671
00:39:33,500 --> 00:39:36,500
an immuno, huge part of the 
South it, South African economy 

672
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,800
involved, foreign investment and
so far. 

673
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,100
And so, Ronald Reagan, wanted 
what he referred to as 

674
00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:45,200
constructive engagement. 
He wanted more money to go into 

675
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,300
South Africa and say, Hey, you 
know, we're going to buy your 

676
00:39:48,300 --> 00:39:51,500
Goodwill and we're going to get 
you to change your philosophy, 

677
00:39:52,100 --> 00:39:55,600
but that didn't go over. 
Well, I would say based. 

678
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,100
Luckily for the from the 
American left and and instead 

679
00:40:00,100 --> 00:40:03,800
there was a movement to say, no,
let's take everything out and 

680
00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:06,500
you know, and demonstrate to 
them that it's going to, it's 

681
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:09,600
going to hurt their economy and 
then there were other over at 

682
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,600
sanctions. 
And again, I am brutally, 

683
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,800
brutally honest with you. 
Here economics is like my my 

684
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:19,000
Achilles heel as a social 
studies teacher. 

685
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:21,800
I hear the Flight of the 
Bumblebee in my head as soon as 

686
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,000
we start talking about 
economics, and I don't know, I 

687
00:40:24,008 --> 00:40:25,600
don't understand a great deal of
it. 

688
00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:27,600
It. 
I'm not I'm not suggesting that 

689
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,800
this was necessarily the right 
way to go, but we know that it 

690
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,300
happened. 
We know that It ultimately, the 

691
00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:39,100
National Party recognize the 
leader, FW de klerk recognize 

692
00:40:39,100 --> 00:40:45,400
that the economic recession, 
that was caused by a lot of. 

693
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,600
This was just not sustainable in
that country and that the time 

694
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:53,200
had come law, had long, since 
come for them to lift and 

695
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,800
obviously overt. 
A system of racism and 

696
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,200
separation. 
Let's say that I have arranged 

697
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,700
for you to be the speaker at the
conservative political action 

698
00:41:06,700 --> 00:41:10,200
committee. 
So you'll be talking to a ton of

699
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,400
Republicans, conservatives, and 
you have them as a captive 

700
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,900
audience. 
These are not just the average 

701
00:41:16,900 --> 00:41:18,300
ones. 
These are the ones who go out of

702
00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:21,400
their way to go to see pack. 
What do you say to those people?

703
00:41:26,700 --> 00:41:29,200
That's a great opportunity. 
I would stress. 

704
00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:34,400
You know, that we need to find a
way to talk to each other. 

705
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:41,000
Another former student of mine 
Yuval Levin who probably has 

706
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,300
spoken at CPAC, but he certainly
was a writer for. 

707
00:41:43,300 --> 00:41:46,100
He's a writer for these written 
for the National Review and many

708
00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:48,800
other organizations or 
Publications. 

709
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,600
His work. 
In recent years, has been 

710
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,000
specifically about that about 
his last book was called the 

711
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,800
time to build and trying to find
Bridges and between the Various 

712
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:06,100
camps, we have developed such a 
horrible hostility that it's 

713
00:42:06,100 --> 00:42:09,500
just as I indicated based on, 
you know, the the Twitter 

714
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,700
exchanges and so forth. 
It's just that if somebody 

715
00:42:12,700 --> 00:42:16,500
disagrees with you the devil and
unfortunately an organization 

716
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:19,600
like that, that's pretty much. 
I mean that's what that the red 

717
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,300
meat that they throw to the 
audience. 

718
00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:25,000
It's who can outdo each other 
about how, how, you know, 

719
00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:29,000
subhuman Democrats are or 
liberals or whatever. 

720
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:33,000
It might. 
B II bristle, when I hear people

721
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,900
do the the overt statements on 
the from the other side about 

722
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,000
all Republicans this and it's 
it's a little harder for me to 

723
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,500
do that too. 
For me to object-- when we're 

724
00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:49,200
talking about support for, you 
know, for the way the that 

725
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:53,200
political party has moved and 
has embraced to some extent lies

726
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:58,400
and ignorance as like, they're 
the watchword of what they do, 

727
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,700
but I also don't I don't want to
emphasize that because I think 

728
00:43:00,700 --> 00:43:04,500
there are plenty of good 
Republicans out there still who 

729
00:43:04,500 --> 00:43:08,100
are willing to listen and 
willing to talk and cooperate 

730
00:43:08,100 --> 00:43:13,900
and unfortunately, the bottom 
line of things like controlling 

731
00:43:13,900 --> 00:43:16,600
the Senate, so you can control 
who gets nominated to the 

732
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,300
Supreme Court, become has become
far more important than trying 

733
00:43:20,300 --> 00:43:22,800
to find solutions to problems 
that don't necessarily have to 

734
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,500
be partisan where we don't have 
to have winners and losers on 

735
00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:31,700
the basis of, you know, which 
party was To get their way, so I

736
00:43:31,707 --> 00:43:35,000
don't know how I would craft 
that speech, but I would, you 

737
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,100
know, I would, I'd probably be 
booed off the stage, no matter 

738
00:43:38,100 --> 00:43:41,500
what if I just, you know, 
encourage them to go find a 

739
00:43:41,508 --> 00:43:43,800
Democrat and have a decent, you 
have a convert, ask them 

740
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:45,700
questions instead of, you know, 
instead of telling them what you

741
00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:48,800
think, ask them questions and 
then ask them more questions and

742
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,500
see see what they have to say as
a teacher. 

743
00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:53,800
One of the things I'd like to do
in my government class actually 

744
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:58,200
in my history class 2 is give 
give give students a question or

745
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,300
tell them to Make an argument 
from a particular point of view 

746
00:44:01,300 --> 00:44:05,600
and sometimes it's a left-wing 
sometimes as right-wing other 

747
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,200
other points of view as well. 
And it's and and I'll 

748
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,400
occasionally get a kid come to 
me and say do I have to do? 

749
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,200
Can I say at the no, I want you 
to make the argument. 

750
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,000
If you can understand the other 
side's argument. 

751
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:16,400
You're not really understanding 
your own. 

752
00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:24,100
The reason that I think is much 
as it seems people are staunchly

753
00:44:24,300 --> 00:44:27,200
in one camp and have one set of 
ideas. 

754
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:32,200
We've seen a drastic shift from 
the free trade issue, you know, 

755
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,200
going from more laissez-faire to
more protection. 

756
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,900
It's in the Republicans. 
It's not front and center enough

757
00:44:37,900 --> 00:44:42,100
to really say that that's been 
an ideological shift, but when 

758
00:44:42,100 --> 00:44:45,900
it comes to support for 
something like the Iraq War you 

759
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:49,600
had People unapologetically 
saying you can almost never to 

760
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,800
question. 
The military is to commit 

761
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,300
treason under Bush that more or 
less literally is what 

762
00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:58,100
Republicans would have told you,
then you had Donald Trump in 

763
00:44:58,100 --> 00:45:02,900
South Carolina running for 
president saying they lied. 

764
00:45:02,900 --> 00:45:07,900
The Republican president lied us
into a war that killed civilians

765
00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:11,300
and caused a terrible crisis in 
the Middle East. 

766
00:45:11,300 --> 00:45:15,100
And it gave rise to the Islamic 
State of Iraq and Syria, so we 

767
00:45:15,100 --> 00:45:19,300
have the Republican being So to 
go from probe or to not just 

768
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,500
neutral to, not just anti-war 
to, this was a war that we were 

769
00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:27,600
lied into so because you can 
almost it so long as you're not 

770
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,500
stealing people's identity from 
them. 

771
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,600
You can say, here's your new 
identity. 

772
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,500
It's instead of pro-military. 
It's pro-military, but anti 

773
00:45:36,500 --> 00:45:39,100
Elite the poison in the military
at the time. 

774
00:45:39,300 --> 00:45:43,200
Was this elitist prick Bush him 
and his brothers and their, you 

775
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,600
know, Skull and Bones stuff. 
Screw them there in the past. 

776
00:45:46,700 --> 00:45:48,200
This is how we're moving 
forward. 

777
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:53,100
So when we understand that, when
we, you know, try to extract 

778
00:45:53,100 --> 00:45:54,700
lessons from something like 
that. 

779
00:45:54,800 --> 00:46:00,900
It does seem like this divide 
can be yielded or more or less. 

780
00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:06,500
Can this wound can be healed 
more or less when it comes to 

781
00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:10,900
maybe finding the source of the 
Divide between people. 

782
00:46:11,100 --> 00:46:15,700
Do you have any theories as to 
what the primary cause of this 

783
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,000
divided? 
It certainly seems like it's 

784
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,100
getting worse. 
But then again, there was a 

785
00:46:20,100 --> 00:46:23,300
Civil War in America. 
So maybe it's been worse before.

786
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:26,900
Yeah, that's one of those things
that we can do. 

787
00:46:26,900 --> 00:46:29,400
I keep saying articles about 
people trying to point to other 

788
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,600
times in history, where we were 
more polarized. 

789
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,000
Obviously. 
We were polarized based on one 

790
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:39,300
issue during the Civil War here.
It's it's much more than a 

791
00:46:39,300 --> 00:46:41,500
single issue. 
And I think you put your finger 

792
00:46:41,500 --> 00:46:42,600
on it. 
I think you put your finger on 

793
00:46:42,607 --> 00:46:46,800
something really important is 
that I don't know that the the 

794
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,600
ideology actually matters that 
much. 

795
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,600
I think it's it's ultimately 
it's sort of making an enemy. 

796
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,300
Demonizing The Other Side, the 
fact that you know, that you 

797
00:46:58,300 --> 00:47:02,900
could have the exact example you
gave about Trump coming up with 

798
00:47:02,900 --> 00:47:07,800
like a complete opposite 
position on on foreign policy on

799
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:13,400
the war in Iraq and not just 
shedding huge numbers of 

800
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,600
Republicans as a result of that 
indicated to me. 

801
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:18,900
That they didn't really care 
about that issue. 

802
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,600
I mean, there's a certain small 
segment of people who maybe 

803
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,200
were, you know, that maybe came 
back to the party who might have

804
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:30,300
left it because they were 
disgusted by neoconservative ISM

805
00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:35,100
in in the Bush Administration, 
but probably not that many. 

806
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,600
I think about a friend of mine 
who is a pastor, a very 

807
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:45,900
fundamentalist Christian Pastor,
who was utterly tortured by the 

808
00:47:45,900 --> 00:47:50,100
choice between Queen Trump and 
Clinton, I'm sure you believe 

809
00:47:50,100 --> 00:47:52,200
that he had more choices than 
that, but in his mind and you 

810
00:47:52,207 --> 00:47:54,500
know, the traditional I don't 
want to throw my vote away kind 

811
00:47:54,500 --> 00:47:57,100
of kind of argument. 
He he did not like Hillary 

812
00:47:57,100 --> 00:48:01,400
Clinton for a whole slew of 
reasons and I don't know exactly

813
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,100
how he voted. 
He's clearly a republican 

814
00:48:04,100 --> 00:48:06,700
attribute very much a 
traditional Republican, but 

815
00:48:06,700 --> 00:48:09,400
Donald Trump was utterly 
disgusting to him. 

816
00:48:09,500 --> 00:48:13,300
I mean just everything about the
man was just like anathema to 

817
00:48:13,300 --> 00:48:17,000
who this person was except. 
There's that nasty it You for 

818
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:22,500
him of abortion, which genuinely
believes that abortion is murder

819
00:48:22,500 --> 00:48:26,800
of children. 
And I suspect at least the first

820
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,700
time, he probably voted for 
Donald Trump, and obviously with

821
00:48:31,700 --> 00:48:35,400
the pending decision might have 
ultimately gotten the that goal 

822
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,900
realized. 
And would that for some people 

823
00:48:37,900 --> 00:48:41,500
would that be worth the price, 
probably. 

824
00:48:41,700 --> 00:48:43,200
But back to the question is 
that? 

825
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,600
I think it really comes down to 
any position. 

826
00:48:46,700 --> 00:48:49,900
Mission. 
I mean Joe Biden saying that 

827
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:54,300
it's really warm today. 
In New Jersey, the response. 

828
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,200
The response would ultimately be
by some Republicans after 

829
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,600
saying, let's go. 
Brandon would be you know, what 

830
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:02,100
a wuss. 
He can't take the heat, you 

831
00:49:02,107 --> 00:49:03,900
know, it's because he's old and 
crazy. 

832
00:49:03,900 --> 00:49:06,900
And it's just what is what is 
wrong with people? 

833
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:08,800
Yes, it's hot. 
Good point. 

834
00:49:08,900 --> 00:49:11,200
Every once in a while. 
I would take a moment to say 

835
00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:13,700
something that Donald Trump said
was genuinely funny. 

836
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:16,600
I didn't agree with almost 
anything. 

837
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,600
He ever said or did politically 
but I would occasionally say, 

838
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,200
you know, and and I have like 
friends who are liberals and 

839
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,600
Democrats who would be like no, 
no couldn't possibly be 

840
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,700
intentional. 
Like know he was making a joke 

841
00:49:29,900 --> 00:49:32,000
and you may find him Heart Like 
a horrible human being and 

842
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,200
disgusting but you know 
terrible. 

843
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,800
People can do funny things or 
even do good things 

844
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,000
occasionally, you know, it 
happens. 

845
00:49:39,700 --> 00:49:42,900
So let me use an analogy to 
explain what. 

846
00:49:42,900 --> 00:49:46,500
I think the source of this 
divide is and ice. 

847
00:49:46,700 --> 00:49:48,500
Specially think it's, an 
unnecessary divided. 

848
00:49:48,500 --> 00:49:52,100
So, if I'm a serial killer, and 
you're not a serial killer, my 

849
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,400
answer would not be well. 
Can we just get along? 

850
00:49:54,500 --> 00:49:58,300
It should be, you put me in a 
cage and shoot me if I resist. 

851
00:49:58,300 --> 00:50:00,100
So there are some genuine 
divides. 

852
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,500
What I'm referring here are 
false or arbitrary or 

853
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:11,600
unprincipled divides. 
Imagine if we had a national 

854
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:16,600
vote 330 million people every 
year to decide which religion, 

855
00:50:16,700 --> 00:50:20,500
Everyone should be. 
And if the Catholic Church winds

856
00:50:20,500 --> 00:50:24,000
were all Catholic and we all 
answer to the pope or maybe the 

857
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,000
Protestants win. 
And then we all have certain 

858
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:31,000
pastors that we've listened to 
in the 50 states whether you 

859
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,200
like the Church of Catholicism 
and protestantism. 

860
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,100
If they win, everyone has to pay
a percentage of their property 

861
00:50:38,300 --> 00:50:41,100
value and send it to the 
Catholic church. 

862
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:44,300
If the Catholic Church wages war
on Scientology. 

863
00:50:44,500 --> 00:50:45,800
They have the right to 
conscript. 

864
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,200
You and everyone. 
It has to chip in for this war 

865
00:50:48,300 --> 00:50:50,600
whether you like it or not. 
If you want a job, you have to 

866
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,900
make sure you get a license from
the Catholic church. 

867
00:50:53,900 --> 00:50:55,600
This way. 
They can keep you safe. 

868
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,200
And there's a new Catholic 
misinformation board that's 

869
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:03,000
going to decipher, false and 
accurate information. 

870
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,500
From other religions. 
Just as a way of letting people 

871
00:51:06,500 --> 00:51:08,200
know what is true, what is 
false? 

872
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,100
It doesn't have regulatory power
but more or less the Catholic 

873
00:51:12,100 --> 00:51:14,800
church in that case would then 
have the right to do things? 

874
00:51:14,900 --> 00:51:18,500
No one else would have the right
to You, I propose that this 

875
00:51:18,500 --> 00:51:21,600
would cause so much division. 
It would literally lead to a 

876
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:25,000
civil war after, I don't know, 
two or three rounds. 

877
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,800
But because we have freedom of 
religion, where I can say, I can

878
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:33,400
tell Bob Fenster, you're going 
to hell and I know it and you 

879
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:37,100
need to get baptized the fact 
that I don't have the right to 

880
00:51:37,100 --> 00:51:40,700
coercively impose that on you. 
I can do everything voluntary, 

881
00:51:40,700 --> 00:51:44,000
but I can't use coercion is what
allows us to have. 

882
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,500
I don't know what your religious
views are. 

883
00:51:45,500 --> 00:51:49,000
I'm an atheist. 
But the fact that my friends, I 

884
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,900
think two doors down. 
They think I'm going to hell in 

885
00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:54,500
my unbaptized kids are going to 
hell. 

886
00:51:54,700 --> 00:51:57,600
And I think they're delusional 
were able to trade or able to 

887
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,700
cooperate with been 20 years 
that we've lived next to each 

888
00:52:00,700 --> 00:52:02,400
other. 
Because this source of 

889
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:06,000
contention is not up for 
coercive decision-making. 

890
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,000
It's totally in the voluntary 
sector there for entering, in 

891
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,900
coercion or the state into this 
issue. 

892
00:52:12,900 --> 00:52:16,500
Is the source of divided. 
Am I wrong on that? 

893
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:21,600
Your well, certainly, your 
analogy Works fairly. 

894
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:26,800
Well, I think that I mean I 
would raise the question about 

895
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:31,400
why we are more divided now than
20 years ago or 30 years ago. 

896
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:36,100
When that's the state was still 
involved in plenty of coercive 

897
00:52:36,100 --> 00:52:41,100
acts, but I will say, just 
piggybacking onto my previous 

898
00:52:41,100 --> 00:52:46,200
answer, the son of the pastor 
who I mentioned was in my Debate

899
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,300
Club. 
This is probably 15 20 years 

900
00:52:48,300 --> 00:52:51,300
ago. 
And he was as right wing as they

901
00:52:51,300 --> 00:52:53,800
come. 
I mean just unapologetically 

902
00:52:53,800 --> 00:53:00,300
right wing and in a way that was
would be incredibly like we one 

903
00:53:00,300 --> 00:53:04,800
of our first issues was 
something about gay rights and 

904
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:09,200
he went up to make a speech and 
he delivered a blistering gays 

905
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,400
are going to hell kind of, you 
know, kind of terrible like 

906
00:53:13,300 --> 00:53:16,000
really what would be horribly 
inappropriate. 

907
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,000
Certainly would be Arbol 
inappropriate today was 

908
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,900
inappropriate then in terms of 
the context and so forth. 

909
00:53:20,900 --> 00:53:24,600
But over that that was what? 
So as a freshman over the next 

910
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:28,500
four years, he and I developed 
an affinity towards each other 

911
00:53:28,700 --> 00:53:30,100
me. 
Coming from one end of the 

912
00:53:30,107 --> 00:53:33,100
political Spectrum, him from 
another and often times. 

913
00:53:33,100 --> 00:53:37,600
We would be sequestered off to a
in a corner of the room. 

914
00:53:37,900 --> 00:53:41,200
And I remember distinctly him 
saying to me, something very 

915
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,500
similar to what words you just 
use where he was saying, you 

916
00:53:43,500 --> 00:53:46,300
want the government to control 
this and and forgot which issue 

917
00:53:46,300 --> 00:53:47,600
we were. 
Talking about and I was like, 

918
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:51,000
well, yeah, but you want the 
government to tell people this 

919
00:53:51,300 --> 00:53:54,600
and it was it was exactly both 
of us kind of found that moment 

920
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:59,200
where I was just like, huh? 
We are both talking about 

921
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:01,600
government coercion at the 
government, the government 

922
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:05,600
coercion that we liked. 
And I think we sort of found an 

923
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,600
affinity right then and there of
like, well, maybe maybe is the 

924
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:11,300
answer that the government 
shouldn't do either of those 

925
00:54:11,300 --> 00:54:13,600
things. 
And for, you know, there was a, 

926
00:54:13,700 --> 00:54:17,000
there was a sort of weird spark 
of libertarianism between us us 

927
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:18,900
about, you know, about that sort
of thing. 

928
00:54:18,900 --> 00:54:22,400
It's like, well, are we going to
be ideologically consistent? 

929
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:27,300
And that's the thing that I 
often disagree with with 

930
00:54:27,300 --> 00:54:31,900
Libertarians on various things 
and on basic philosophy, but I 

931
00:54:31,908 --> 00:54:34,800
got to take my hat off on the 
10th, on the, on the consistency

932
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,500
Democrats or Republicans are 
rarely consistent about their 

933
00:54:39,500 --> 00:54:41,800
philosophy. 
They have to bend over backwards

934
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:45,300
and twist themselves into knots 
to try to justify things and 

935
00:54:45,300 --> 00:54:48,500
often just ignore. 
The actual philosophy, 

936
00:54:48,500 --> 00:54:50,100
underlying it. 
That's why. 

937
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,900
Donald Trump could be a 
republican despite having bit 

938
00:54:53,900 --> 00:54:56,900
protectionist views, despite how
you know, the all of those 

939
00:54:56,900 --> 00:54:59,000
things. 
It's populism is what that 

940
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,900
ultimately amounts to not actual
philosophy. 

941
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,200
When it comes to we got about 
five minutes left, thank you so 

942
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:07,600
much for being generous with 
your time. 

943
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,000
By the way. 
What what were some of the 

944
00:55:11,008 --> 00:55:15,700
greatest traits that Nelson 
Mandela had as a leader and what

945
00:55:15,700 --> 00:55:22,800
can we learn from him? 
I think the resilience and 

946
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:30,400
seeing seeing the big picture. 
The Long Haul, My My My Mentor 

947
00:55:30,700 --> 00:55:33,500
in college was a labor studies 
professor. 

948
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:39,600
And one of the things that he 
always said to activists was 

949
00:55:39,600 --> 00:55:42,200
that you have to be in it for 
the long haul and that would be 

950
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,300
true. 
Whatever your political 

951
00:55:44,300 --> 00:55:47,600
philosophy is. 
I mean, it kind of somewhat 

952
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,600
lonely being a Libertarian. 
When you get Two percent of the 

953
00:55:50,600 --> 00:55:53,800
vote in many in many cases. 
And and like, how do you, how do

954
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:56,000
you keep it going? 
Well, you keep it going by 

955
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,900
looking at like this, not 
living, and dying by every 

956
00:55:59,900 --> 00:56:04,700
single Victory or defeat like 
being a manager of a baseball 

957
00:56:04,700 --> 00:56:08,700
team that plays 162 games. 
I would be terrible at it 

958
00:56:08,700 --> 00:56:13,000
because it's really hard for me.
Not to live and die by successes

959
00:56:13,500 --> 00:56:16,700
by the defeats in particular, 
and I think that's something I 

960
00:56:16,707 --> 00:56:19,200
meant in Mandela was, you know, 
he understood. 

961
00:56:19,300 --> 00:56:23,400
I mean obviously, Ali serving, 
27 years in prison, only to 

962
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:27,600
eventually emerge and be able to
have been kept his wits about 

963
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,200
him. 
Having been a leader within the 

964
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,100
Robben Island prison, and then 
being able to become president 

965
00:56:33,100 --> 00:56:36,100
of South Africa. 
That's a long, that's a long 

966
00:56:36,100 --> 00:56:37,300
haul. 
Philosophy of it certainly 

967
00:56:37,300 --> 00:56:39,400
worked out for the better. 
Not that. 

968
00:56:39,400 --> 00:56:41,700
Not that all the problems of 
South Africa, one away. 

969
00:56:41,700 --> 00:56:45,700
But at least the fundamental 
Liberties of, millions of people

970
00:56:45,700 --> 00:56:53,000
were restored as a consequence. 
Imagine you get one but one task

971
00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:56,400
as new education, Czar in 
America. 

972
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,900
And your first thing is, you're 
going to recommend a book that 

973
00:56:59,900 --> 00:57:03,000
everyone's going to read. 
What is the book that you would 

974
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:07,100
recommend for all Americans to 
read assume they have to do it 

975
00:57:07,100 --> 00:57:11,400
and they can't resist. 
What book would that be and why 

976
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,900
would you choose that book? 
Huh? 

977
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,200
You know what? 
I'm gonna give you a second to 

978
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,000
think because I didn't prep for 
that one. 

979
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:22,400
Mine would be there's a book by 
a guy named Madison Prairie. 

980
00:57:22,500 --> 00:57:25,800
He is from Britain and his book 
is titled. 

981
00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:29,300
The use and abuse of logic. 
This book. 

982
00:57:29,300 --> 00:57:34,700
Is that what essentially took me
away from now supporting Mitt 

983
00:57:34,700 --> 00:57:38,800
Romney or go or conservatism. 
This would have been around. 

984
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,100
Gosh. 
I guess just after the 2012 

985
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:45,100
election. 
So he takes probably 100 lat. 

986
00:57:45,300 --> 00:57:48,500
No, fallacies and says just 
because something is fallacious,

987
00:57:48,500 --> 00:57:51,400
doesn't mean it has its of no 
value. 

988
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:55,700
But please recognize that, there
can be times where you're doing 

989
00:57:55,700 --> 00:57:59,600
things for unjustified purposes 
that on the surface level seem 

990
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:03,000
good but actually are not 
justifications. 

991
00:58:03,100 --> 00:58:07,000
So each chapter is about a page 
and a half long and he just goes

992
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,800
through one logical fallacy 
after another. 

993
00:58:09,900 --> 00:58:12,700
The reason I'd recommend that 
book is because that would at 

994
00:58:12,700 --> 00:58:15,600
least get us talking on the same
page because so much So often 

995
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:18,800
it's like we're not even 
speaking the same language. 

996
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:20,400
It certainly seems on more 
topics. 

997
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:22,900
Just people, it's almost 
impossible to get people 

998
00:58:22,900 --> 00:58:26,400
divided. 
However, or it's impossible to 

999
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:29,900
get people on the same page. 
I saw a great experiment where 

1000
00:58:29,900 --> 00:58:33,900
someone with an opposing shirt 
would walk up to an event that 

1001
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:37,100
you know, the opposition was 
having and they'd say, oh guys I

1002
00:58:37,100 --> 00:58:39,500
lost my dog. 
Have you guys seen my dog and 

1003
00:58:39,500 --> 00:58:43,000
they be holding an empty leech 
of of course, there's no dog and

1004
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:46,700
then and then people would Oh, 
no, sorry, and then they talked 

1005
00:58:46,700 --> 00:58:49,000
for five minutes. 
And then when they brought up 

1006
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:52,600
politics, it was more or less. 
We can agree to disagree. 

1007
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:54,100
You have some good points. 
I have bad. 

1008
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,900
Just bringing in that human 
factor of. 

1009
00:58:57,100 --> 00:58:59,400
I'm going through a loss here. 
I'm real vulnerable. 

1010
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:03,100
This is so stressful on me that 
alone got people to sort of 

1011
00:59:03,100 --> 00:59:05,600
lower their swords just for a 
minute. 

1012
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,800
And I think this book, The use 
and abuse of logic by Madsen 

1013
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,800
Prairiewood would do that. 
Bob Fenster one book for every 

1014
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:16,900
American to read. 
It's a little dated, but I think

1015
00:59:16,900 --> 00:59:20,100
certainly people need to read. 
If they, if they're unaware of 

1016
00:59:20,100 --> 00:59:21,600
it. 
James lowens lies. 

1017
00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:25,600
My teacher told me and not even 
because of the specific. 

1018
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:28,200
I mean, there's a chapter on 
Columbus and all you know, and 

1019
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:32,900
and it did a survey he did 
surveys of American textbooks. 

1020
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:36,500
And again, this is 20 probably 
20 years old, American textbooks

1021
00:59:36,500 --> 00:59:40,200
from the previous decade and 
what what people were taught and

1022
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:44,600
again, I'm not it's pretty much 
a very I'd say left-wing. 

1023
00:59:45,300 --> 00:59:51,000
Of and I would not be presenting
it to you or anyone else as a 

1024
00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:53,900
necessarily by the politics of 
the book. 

1025
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:56,600
But understand that those myths 
that we talked about much 

1026
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,700
earlier, that become 
collectively, you know, 

1027
00:59:59,700 --> 01:00:05,700
Collective truths are things 
that need to be examined about. 

1028
01:00:05,700 --> 01:00:09,200
How did that happen? 
What we teach in the classroom. 

1029
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,500
I'm guilty of having taught 
things that were just not, not 

1030
01:00:13,500 --> 01:00:15,000
true, but it was something that 
I was taught. 

1031
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:19,300
Thought and so, you know, I just
would offer that as an idea just

1032
01:00:19,300 --> 01:00:25,200
to to see the Mecha nations of 
how of, how how reality our are 

1033
01:00:25,500 --> 01:00:27,800
supposed factual reality is 
created. 

1034
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,100
Who would chapter on John Brown?
One of my heroes? 

1035
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,500
Oh, gosh, you've done a terrible
disservice. 

1036
01:00:35,500 --> 01:00:37,100
Now. 
I have to restart now. 

1037
01:00:37,100 --> 01:00:40,800
I have to restart my Prime 
Membership because I I said I 

1038
01:00:40,808 --> 01:00:44,000
wasn't going to buy any books, 
but you've ruined that for me. 

1039
01:00:44,100 --> 01:00:46,200
Now I have to mr. 
Fenster. 

1040
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,500
Thank you so much for your time 
is Twitter. 

1041
01:00:49,500 --> 01:00:51,600
The best place for people to 
follow you? 

1042
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,300
Yeah, I think so. 
That would be at HHS fence 

1043
01:00:54,300 --> 01:00:55,500
turkey. 
Thank you so much. 

1044
01:00:55,500 --> 01:00:57,900
I really enjoyed this 
conversation and I definitely 

1045
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,600
Definitely want to have you on 
my own podcast, which is called 

1046
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:01,600
Bob's. 
Just asking. 

1047
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,800
There's my plug, which is a 
podcast about me talking to 

1048
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,300
people about subjects. 
I know, very little, but little 

1049
01:01:08,300 --> 01:01:10,900
about trying to get a better 
understanding of the world, not 

1050
01:01:10,900 --> 01:01:15,500
only for myself, but hopefully, 
for Curious listeners and thank 

1051
01:01:15,500 --> 01:01:18,900
you to everyone for watching the
libertarian Institute and Keith 

1052
01:01:18,900 --> 01:01:21,100
Knight. 
Don't tread on anyone. 

1053
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:21,900
Take care.