1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,000 Welcome to Keith's night. Don't try it on anyone. 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,700 Today. We'll be talking with Stephen 3 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,700 Kushner. He is a distinguished teaching 4 00:00:07,700 --> 00:00:09,700 professor in the philosophy department. 5 00:00:09,700 --> 00:00:13,200 At the State University of New York at Fredonia. 6 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,400 He is also an attorney, mr. Kirchner. 7 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,600 Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for having me. 8 00:00:20,300 --> 00:00:23,800 What do you think is the value of thought experiments in 9 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,700 philosophy? So I think what thought 10 00:00:26,700 --> 00:00:29,700 experiments do is that the isolate, the relevant factors, 11 00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:33,100 so we need to have sort of the method of difference. 12 00:00:33,300 --> 00:00:36,700 Whereby we hold everything else, fixed but change one factor and 13 00:00:36,700 --> 00:00:39,800 see what effect it has. So I view that thought 14 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,700 experiments similar to what goes on in science. 15 00:00:43,100 --> 00:00:48,200 We use it to try and identify which are the elements that are 16 00:00:48,300 --> 00:00:53,500 going to making a difference. Now, can you please explain the 17 00:00:53,500 --> 00:00:56,400 trolley problem? I have had a number of different 18 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,700 explanations given to me. How do you understand the 19 00:00:59,700 --> 00:01:03,800 trolley problem? So the kind of traditional 20 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:08,800 trolley problem is twofold on one version. 21 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,400 You have a trolley going down the tracks and it's going to run 22 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,700 over five people. But if you switch the track, I 23 00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:19,900 think to the right. Then you there's a person on the 24 00:01:19,900 --> 00:01:21,400 right track. Then you're going to kill one 25 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:23,900 person. If you don't switch is going to 26 00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:27,200 run over 5, and the question is, is it okay to engage in a 27 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:32,800 killing which occurs when you switch the trolley or a We're 28 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,400 letting die which is where more people died. 29 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,500 And so, it's an issue. That is a killing permissible or 30 00:01:40,500 --> 00:01:45,200 is it more or should we are, we Amanda obligated to have a 31 00:01:45,208 --> 00:01:48,300 letting die? Second version has again, the 32 00:01:48,300 --> 00:01:51,600 trolleys going down, the track, towards five individuals, but 33 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,800 there's a very large man on a track. 34 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,500 And we can push him in front of the trolley, which will slow the 35 00:01:57,500 --> 00:02:01,900 trolley down. So the five can escape and so, 36 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:06,300 That's another killing versus letting die issue but they are 37 00:02:06,300 --> 00:02:10,199 killing a large man. Is the means by which we save 38 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:12,700 the five. So this seems to be a difference 39 00:02:12,700 --> 00:02:17,400 in the way in which we view, the one individual, when we turn the 40 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:22,900 trolley. It's a foreseen side effect. 41 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,800 When we push the fat man or the large man, we're using him as a 42 00:02:25,808 --> 00:02:31,200 means by which to save the five. So yeah, so to the question, 43 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,000 whether it's the same Case was a different case. 44 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,300 And also what we should do in both cases. 45 00:02:36,300 --> 00:02:42,600 So Michael sandel of Harvard says that it's not really that 46 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,000 different or he uses the thought experiment to say, well what if 47 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,200 there's a guy who comes to the doctors just for a checkup and 48 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:54,800 he has the ability to, you know, have seven of his organs 49 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,300 harvested to save the lives of seven others. 50 00:02:57,700 --> 00:03:01,800 How is it different in principle to kill one person to harvest 51 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,900 their organs to save Seven Lives versus pulling the lever on? 52 00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:10,700 The trolley to kill one person in order to save the others in. 53 00:03:10,700 --> 00:03:15,100 But in both cases, you are ending one life in order to save 54 00:03:15,100 --> 00:03:18,800 the others, right? So, I think the closer analogy 55 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,400 is with regard to the pushing the large man in front of the 56 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:26,500 trolley there. You are killing one as a means 57 00:03:26,500 --> 00:03:29,200 by which to save the five when you cut open the healthy 58 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,200 patient. What you're doing is you're 59 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,700 again killing the one to save, the five redistributing the 60 00:03:34,700 --> 00:03:38,100 organs or using individual slow down, the trolley seem to be 61 00:03:38,100 --> 00:03:42,000 morally similar. It depends on whether or not 62 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:45,700 these two differ from turning. The trolley depends on whether 63 00:03:45,700 --> 00:03:47,400 or not you think intention matters. 64 00:03:47,700 --> 00:03:51,500 That is, doesn't matter that when you turn the trolley, the 65 00:03:51,500 --> 00:03:55,600 person who dies on the side is not the means by which you save 66 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,200 the five. He's just a foreseen side 67 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,500 effect, whereas in the case of pushing the large man and 68 00:04:01,500 --> 00:04:06,700 cutting up the healthy, patient. The individual who is killed is 69 00:04:06,700 --> 00:04:09,500 used as a means by which to save the 5ms an issue. 70 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,800 Ooh, I'll because in both cases all three cases, you're doing 71 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,600 something which results in someone's death. 72 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:19,500 There's an issue as to whether or not what's going on in the 73 00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:23,200 agents had matters. Hmm, very interesting. 74 00:04:23,500 --> 00:04:27,400 So this book theory of Justice by John Rawls. 75 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,900 He says the principles of Justice are chosen behind a veil 76 00:04:30,900 --> 00:04:34,400 of ignorance. This ensures that no one is 77 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,100 advantage or disadvantage in the choice of principles by the 78 00:04:38,100 --> 00:04:41,300 outcome of natural. And or the contingency of social 79 00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:44,700 circumstances, this explains the propriety of the name justice, 80 00:04:44,700 --> 00:04:47,700 as fairness, it conveys. The idea that the principles of 81 00:04:47,700 --> 00:04:52,500 Justice are agreed to in initial in an initial situation. 82 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:54,800 That is fair. So he's saying in order for us 83 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,600 to realize what is just my understanding. 84 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,100 In order for us to realize what is just or unjust. 85 00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:02,900 We must first decide behind a veil of ignorance without 86 00:05:02,900 --> 00:05:05,400 knowing our future place in society. 87 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,000 What is just or unjust? Is this a valuable thought 88 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,300 experiment or way? To achieve the just Society. 89 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,700 Well, I mean, I think it's an interesting thought experiment. 90 00:05:14,700 --> 00:05:17,800 I mean, whether it's correct. As a side note, I made a 91 00:05:17,808 --> 00:05:22,000 separate issue. So I mean certainly it's one of 92 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,200 the most important developments in the history of political 93 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,000 philosophy and certainly in the late 20th century. 94 00:05:27,700 --> 00:05:30,700 It is, it is it the way to go? I'm not sure it's the way to go 95 00:05:30,700 --> 00:05:34,600 because I'm not sure that it allows us to respect rights. 96 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:40,700 So nor is it the way to maximize the good. 97 00:05:40,700 --> 00:05:44,600 So I'm not sure it it's helpful because that argue blocks the 98 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:48,800 two best ways that we should think about normative ethics. 99 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,700 So that's why I lamb I'm skeptical of it. 100 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,600 When I mean, what Rawls assuming is that things don't Come owned. 101 00:05:57,900 --> 00:06:01,100 So, in some sense the sock either they're on own or Society 102 00:06:01,100 --> 00:06:03,400 owns them and any case Society can just write head distribute 103 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,500 them. Whereas if you think that look 104 00:06:05,500 --> 00:06:09,400 objects, our own bodies around than the principles that you 105 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,500 might decide behind the veil of ignorance. 106 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:15,000 Might not be the principles that a correct in virtue of the fact 107 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,400 that things are already owned and then than not, not free for 108 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:25,600 the society to distribute. In Anarchy State and Utopia. 109 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,500 Robert nozick says, utilitarian. Theory is embarrassed by the 110 00:06:29,500 --> 00:06:33,600 possibility of utility monsters who get enormously greater gains 111 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:39,300 in utility from any sacrifice of others than these others lose 112 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:43,700 for unacceptably. The theory seems to require that 113 00:06:43,700 --> 00:06:48,400 we all be sacrificed in the monsters ma in order to increase 114 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,100 total utility. So what I get that Saying here 115 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:57,000 is we each get, you know, 10 units of utility by, you know, 116 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,100 eating food, but there's a certain monster that gets a 117 00:07:01,100 --> 00:07:04,700 million units of utility with no point of diminishing return. 118 00:07:04,900 --> 00:07:08,800 Therefore, if we care about increasing utility all efforts 119 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,500 should be geared towards pleasing this monster. 120 00:07:12,300 --> 00:07:15,100 Do you think there's any value in this thought experiment or 121 00:07:15,100 --> 00:07:16,900 its implications? Yes. 122 00:07:16,900 --> 00:07:18,700 I mean, I think it's really useful. 123 00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:22,300 I mean the way these arguments work is that You kind of roll 124 00:07:22,300 --> 00:07:25,100 up, pros and cons or, you know, costs and benefits of different 125 00:07:25,100 --> 00:07:27,100 theories. So I do think that's a 126 00:07:27,100 --> 00:07:29,600 counterintuitive feature of consequentialism. 127 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,400 Consequentialism says that the right maximize the good, that is 128 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:35,400 what we ought to do to maximize the good and utilitarian, add to 129 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,500 that that when deciding what it is. 130 00:07:37,500 --> 00:07:39,400 What's good? What it is. 131 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:42,300 We should be maximizing its utility or well-being. 132 00:07:43,100 --> 00:07:46,100 So I think it's a good point. I mean, it's not the only one. 133 00:07:46,100 --> 00:07:47,800 Right? Utilitarianism would tell us 134 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,400 that we should kill people who are depressed, if doing so, 135 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,500 Would increase total or average utility depending on which one 136 00:07:55,500 --> 00:07:59,400 which method you should have. It also tells you that you have 137 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,900 a duty to reproduce. So, for example, imagine a 138 00:08:02,900 --> 00:08:06,100 couple, they're both attorneys and they have two children and 139 00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:08,300 they could have five the ideas that they really did. 140 00:08:08,300 --> 00:08:11,400 Something wrong in virtue of the fact that they prevent to the 141 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,800 world, three happy people coming into the world. 142 00:08:13,900 --> 00:08:16,300 And that's perhaps worse than murdering someone. 143 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,000 Why? Because in murdering someone, 144 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,400 you taking away, one lifetime's worth of utility. 145 00:08:21,500 --> 00:08:26,900 Tails and having only two round 5 you're taking away 3, so 146 00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:30,200 they're going to be all sorts of Bizarro consequences of 147 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:31,600 utilitarianism. I'll give you just one more 148 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:33,299 example. Imagine. 149 00:08:33,299 --> 00:08:34,900 I have a friend. I don't friend. 150 00:08:34,900 --> 00:08:39,100 Jim and Jim is a really good guy if there is Heaven and Hell, 151 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:40,500 Jim's definitely going to heaven. 152 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,799 But if he's going to heaven and that Max is out the member of 153 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:45,700 utils. Then nothing we can do is going 154 00:08:45,700 --> 00:08:48,300 to make the world worse, Better, or Worse, hence. 155 00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:51,300 There's no limit to the amount of evil, we can engage in. 156 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:53,900 Because it won't affect the overall amount of well-being. 157 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,700 So, I mean, there's lots of Oddball consequences of Oddball, 158 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:01,600 results of eco-terrorism. That's one of them. 159 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,700 And there are others as well. Obviously fair, you know, 160 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,000 non-consequential is, impeccably rights Theory, which nowzik is a 161 00:09:09,008 --> 00:09:11,300 proponent and I think nose is great. 162 00:09:11,300 --> 00:09:13,600 I mean, I think is his book and his work in general is 163 00:09:13,608 --> 00:09:17,200 fantastic. But I mean, there are some huge 164 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,200 holes in the theory, you know, so I mean, utilitarian would 165 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,600 take Take too much similar shots at knows that and say well 166 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,900 that's embarrassing as well. So it cuts in both directions. 167 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,000 I gather you're a fan of knows it just because I see I know 168 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:33,700 this picture on your your Skype address. 169 00:09:33,900 --> 00:09:36,700 You know what I forget that it's there and I should probably 170 00:09:36,700 --> 00:09:40,900 change it to my logo, but I just needed something. 171 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:43,400 I just needed something a long time ago and I picked him 172 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,400 because I was really motivated by his work. 173 00:09:47,300 --> 00:09:50,400 Well, I mostly your moniker, you know, don't tread on anyone 174 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,000 that. Sounds that sounds very nosy key 175 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,800 and I hope so. Do you see that utilitarianism 176 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:02,000 is something that people kind of value in their current 177 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,900 circumstance, but don't value historically. 178 00:10:04,900 --> 00:10:08,100 Another words, they'll say racism, inherently evil. 179 00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:10,300 Don't bug me with the costs and benefits. 180 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,900 Don't, I'm gonna suspect you of being evil. 181 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:17,300 If you even tell me there's a benefit to racism or slavery or 182 00:10:17,300 --> 00:10:19,700 discrimination. But today, instead of thinking 183 00:10:19,700 --> 00:10:21,900 on principle, the biggest, August 14. 184 00:10:21,900 --> 00:10:24,600 Me is, you know, I think conscription is forced to labor 185 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,700 and the slavery against someone's will but they'll argue 186 00:10:28,700 --> 00:10:32,400 with me for 30 minutes about the pros and cons of conscription 187 00:10:32,700 --> 00:10:36,300 when historically there. So, okay, with saying slavery 188 00:10:36,300 --> 00:10:39,800 was inherently immoral racism is inherently immoral, but do you 189 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,700 see that disconnect or is that just something? 190 00:10:41,700 --> 00:10:44,100 I'm making, I agree with you about aside, Old Guard of 191 00:10:44,100 --> 00:10:47,100 conscription, do people care about consequences. 192 00:10:47,100 --> 00:10:49,700 And I absolutely, I think they do when they vote, right? 193 00:10:49,700 --> 00:10:52,700 One of the reasons they vote. Is not just on the basis of 194 00:10:52,700 --> 00:10:55,300 justice, but also on the basis of who's going to bring about 195 00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:59,400 the best results sometimes when people pick an economic theory, 196 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,200 right? Which economic theory they argue 197 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:06,900 for and they think in terms of consequentialism, so I think 198 00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:09,600 it's a fairly common way that people think. 199 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:14,500 I also think I also believe that it is it's tracking at least a 200 00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:17,500 important and important moral consideration whether it's the 201 00:11:17,500 --> 00:11:23,100 only one is a separate matter. Okay, final note on nozik. 202 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:27,200 He has something called The Experience machine Suppose. 203 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,000 There were an experience machine. 204 00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:30,600 That would give you any experience. 205 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:33,600 You desired super duper neuropsychologist, could 206 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,400 stimulate your brain. So that you could think and feel 207 00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:40,000 that you were writing a great novel or making a friend, or 208 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,400 reading an interesting book all the time. 209 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,300 You would be floating in a tank with electrodes attached to your 210 00:11:45,300 --> 00:11:47,700 brain. Should you plug into this 211 00:11:47,700 --> 00:11:51,100 machine for life? I mean, your life's experiences. 212 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,000 How would you respond to that? Would you plug in and why? 213 00:11:55,000 --> 00:12:00,000 Or why not? So I actually go back and forth 214 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,000 in that. I don't have a decided view that 215 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,500 strong intuitive you is that we would not plug-in and the reason 216 00:12:06,500 --> 00:12:09,200 knows it gives us three reasons. We don't want to plug in first. 217 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,000 He says we want to be a sort of a certain sort of person. 218 00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:15,000 We don't want to have the experience of being virtuous or 219 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,100 Brave or caring. You want actually be that sort 220 00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:19,700 of person second. We want to have agency. 221 00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:22,600 We want actually do things not just have the experience as if 222 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,000 we're doing things and the third reason he gives that we want to 223 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,100 contact with reality. You know you want to actually 224 00:12:28,100 --> 00:12:29,300 know things. We don't want to have the 225 00:12:29,300 --> 00:12:33,200 experience as if we know things and that's a fairly strong 226 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:39,400 intuition. On the other hand, in terms of 227 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,400 what's in my interest. I'm not sure there's something 228 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,500 in my interest other than pleasure and because the 229 00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:47,400 experience between gives you more pleasure than any other 230 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,200 option. It's not clear that we shouldn't 231 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,100 want to be hooked up to the experience machine for 232 00:12:52,100 --> 00:12:55,600 theoretical purposes, even though it seems intuitively 233 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,600 distasteful. There are factors which make the 234 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,700 experiment messy and among the factors that make it. 235 00:13:02,700 --> 00:13:06,600 Messy are the fact that we're worried about other people, 236 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,700 write not just what the effect in our self is. 237 00:13:08,700 --> 00:13:12,900 But what is the effect of our actions on others? 238 00:13:13,100 --> 00:13:14,500 And you might think, well, we're going to harm others. 239 00:13:14,500 --> 00:13:16,600 We hook open to the experience machine. 240 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,000 And also there's a risk factor, right? 241 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,300 If you if you're not controlling the experience machine and how 242 00:13:22,300 --> 00:13:24,200 do you know they're not just going to plug in, you know, one 243 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:29,900 nightmare after another. So I am torn on the experience 244 00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:34,400 machine for theoretical reasons. And if I was viewing making the 245 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,000 city, a land-based of self-interest, it seems that we 246 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,900 probably would want to be hooked up to the machine, on the other 247 00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:43,300 hand, intuitively seem not to and then they're just some some 248 00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:46,600 others and moral reason not to concern for others and then just 249 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,400 a risk factor. Mmm. 250 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:55,400 Yeah, there is a. I believe he was a professor of 251 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,100 Economics at the University of Nevada Las. 252 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:01,000 Las Vegas Hans Hermann, Hapa writes quite commonly as been 253 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,700 observed, that argumentation implies that a proposition 254 00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:10,200 claims Universal acceptability, or should it be a norm proposal 255 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,700 that is universalizability applied to Norms proposals. 256 00:14:13,900 --> 00:14:17,800 This is the idea as formulated in the golden rule of Ethics or 257 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,700 in the continent. Categorical imperative that only 258 00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:24,500 those Norms can be justified that can be formulated as 259 00:14:24,500 --> 00:14:27,000 general principles which are valid forever. 260 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:31,100 One without exception. So do you think universalizing 261 00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:33,900 something is key to knowing whether or not it's just or 262 00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:37,800 unjust. No, I think the problem 263 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:44,000 universalization is that it's their issues as to whether or 264 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,600 not there is a restriction on how you universalize things that 265 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,600 is standard accounting universalization as you plug in 266 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:56,000 a situation and then an action And so there's an issue. 267 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,800 You know, what, what are the limits the way you universalize 268 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,400 this on top of the fact, I'm not sure how universalization is 269 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,300 relevant. It seems to me what with 270 00:15:04,300 --> 00:15:05,200 relevant to things. Like. 271 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:06,500 Are you maximizing? Good? 272 00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:08,000 Are you respecting people's rights? 273 00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:11,100 You are you satisfying, what other, whatever other moral 274 00:15:11,100 --> 00:15:14,900 considerations are relevant, you know, perhaps a quality or 275 00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:19,700 exploitation or dessert, but I'm not sure how the 276 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:23,700 universalization is met on top of the fact that You can always 277 00:15:23,700 --> 00:15:25,200 sort of narrowly describe things. 278 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:31,000 So it's Universe Eliza below. So yeah, now in against 279 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,500 democracy, Jason Brennan gives the jury examples. 280 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,100 He says, imagine we have five juries. 281 00:15:38,300 --> 00:15:41,300 The first jury is ignorant. They just ignore the evidence. 282 00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:44,000 The second Jerry is irrational day. 283 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,100 They're just bias there. Non-scientific, the third jury 284 00:15:47,100 --> 00:15:49,500 is impaired. So even though they tried their 285 00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:52,800 just so uncommon incompetent that they can't. 286 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,000 Wise information. The fourth jury is a moral know, 287 00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:58,300 if you're black Jewish or republican. 288 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,000 They will convict you, regardless of the evidence and 289 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,500 the fifth jury is corrupt. Anyone who gives them 10 290 00:16:04,500 --> 00:16:06,600 thousand dollars. They will come up with that 291 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,800 verdict. He then asks, may we enforce the 292 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,100 jurors decisions in these cases. Should the defendant submit to 293 00:16:13,100 --> 00:16:16,000 their Authority. It seems not in each case, the 294 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,000 jury acts badly and everyone knows it intuitively. 295 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,500 It seems that these jury decisions lack Authority and 296 00:16:22,500 --> 00:16:25,900 legitimacy. His point is all of those five 297 00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:28,800 criteria, apply to voters in democracies. 298 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,300 Therefore we have no obligation to obey laws. 299 00:16:32,500 --> 00:16:35,900 That exist has a cause of result of democratic decision-making. 300 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,300 What do you think about that? Well, in general I think 301 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:40,400 Brandon's Works. Excellent. 302 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:46,100 I particularly liked that book. I'm sort of a little mixed on on 303 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:51,100 The View that given the failure of the voters in terms of to be 304 00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:53,100 informed and to think in a very clear manner. 305 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,600 Or the amount of authority you might think of the state as 306 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,600 Authority. It has it because we Valley 307 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,400 consent to it. And if we value the consent to 308 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,900 it, then we can send to it in terms of the flawed decision 309 00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:08,000 making on the other hand. If we don't valve the consent to 310 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,300 it, then it doesn't seem to be and it's hard to see why we 311 00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:14,700 should care whether or not the voters are well, informed or 312 00:17:14,700 --> 00:17:19,700 rational. So I'm not sure why valid 313 00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:21,300 consent doesn't preamp the issue. 314 00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:23,099 I mean, he makes a good point that democracy. 315 00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:26,200 It is a pretty flawed method of decision making. 316 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,300 And, you know, some people have argued. 317 00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:32,700 Well, look, there's an empirical issue as flawed. 318 00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:34,500 It is, is it better than other methods? 319 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,000 Other methods might involve no government? 320 00:17:37,700 --> 00:17:40,900 Or, you know, more of more conservation protection of 321 00:17:40,900 --> 00:17:43,800 Rights, or sort of non democratic means. 322 00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:46,600 So this kind of an empirical issue. 323 00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:52,700 So, I think it's a fairly messy issue, but I think before we get 324 00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:56,900 to that issue, there's an issue of state state legitimacy. 325 00:17:57,100 --> 00:18:01,800 That is does the state of right to coerce us and sort of related 326 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,300 notion. Do we have a duty to obey the 327 00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:09,300 state? I think that what we first have 328 00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:11,900 to adjust that issue before we have to address whether or not 329 00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:15,900 democracy is, is fatally flawed. But what's your view about 330 00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:20,500 democracy? I would say that democracy is 331 00:18:20,500 --> 00:18:25,300 morally justified in so far as the participants are engaging 332 00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:27,600 voluntarily. So I would say this is the 333 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,500 principal difference between a organization that is 334 00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:34,300 democratically run and they're constantly voting like a worker 335 00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:37,800 Cooperative versus a nation. Yes, they are very different in 336 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,600 size. But in one case you have people 337 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,400 voluntarily entering into contractual agreements. 338 00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:48,600 The other, I just really see as being subject to mob rule, 339 00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:53,100 wouldn't see it as any different whether a group called Congress 340 00:18:53,100 --> 00:18:57,800 is doing it. Or if Amazon says, You get to 341 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:02,900 vote for our CEO once every four years and you have to abide by 342 00:19:02,900 --> 00:19:05,000 our laws and we get to tax your income. 343 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,100 But if you want to change things, you can apply to work at 344 00:19:08,100 --> 00:19:10,000 Amazon. Maybe we'll hire you. 345 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,200 Maybe you could work your way up the ranks and change the system 346 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,300 from within I, just hold the state to the same standard as 347 00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:19,400 anyone else. So coercive democracy against 348 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,000 voluntary, democracy is, I think is fine, even though there's 349 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,800 still the shortcoming with the division of labor. 350 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,500 So, I mean I don't necessarily look at you know, the things I 351 00:19:30,508 --> 00:19:33,900 like like my iPad and say, God, I really wish more people had 352 00:19:33,900 --> 00:19:36,300 voted on how this was made. I'm like thank God. 353 00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:39,900 It was a small Elite of intellectuals that write the 354 00:19:39,900 --> 00:19:42,200 books that I love. Make the iPads that I like to 355 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,700 learn on. So, I'm not really that big of a 356 00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:50,100 fan of democracy. II mean, I heard you saying, I'm 357 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,800 So when you say voluntary democracy, does that mean people 358 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,300 can opt out at any one time? Yeah. 359 00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:01,200 Yeah, so it would, it would be very much like a worker 360 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:05,000 Cooperative, which a lot of people, you know, say is the 361 00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:08,700 great way of finally being liberated from the Bourgeois Z. 362 00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:13,400 I don't see it at all. If I wanted to opt out on Monday 363 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,500 and steal. My neighbor's car on Tuesday. 364 00:20:15,500 --> 00:20:20,300 I couldn't be prosecuted for it. Well, you would be prosecuted 365 00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:24,000 for stealing your neighbor's car, regardless of whether it 366 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,900 was part of a democratic decision or not. 367 00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:30,800 The very Act of stealing would still be taking property. 368 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,400 You haven't justly acquired. So I would see those as two 369 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,200 separate issues Farrah. I mean, I hear what you're 370 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,000 saying. I mean, it is interesting, 371 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,800 though that you think the criminal justice system exists 372 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,200 independent of state's Authority. 373 00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:49,500 I'm not sure that that's correct. 374 00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:51,400 When the state doesn't have authority over me. 375 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,700 It's unclear why I can tell me what to do or not. 376 00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:55,100 Do. Of course. 377 00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:58,300 My neighbor could call in the state to protect his Goods, but 378 00:20:58,300 --> 00:21:03,500 I'm not sure that the criminal justice system can operate if 379 00:21:03,500 --> 00:21:09,300 the state is illegitimate. Yeah, I read the work of Ed 380 00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:12,800 Stringham who had a book published by Oxford called 381 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:14,900 private governance in which he makes the case. 382 00:21:14,900 --> 00:21:18,900 That a lot of the reason we are secure is because of things 383 00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:22,000 like, you know, alarm systems in our house guns. 384 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:27,300 We have the discipline of repeated interactions that give 385 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:29,800 people an incentive to respect property rights. 386 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:34,900 He says that that happens more. So as a causal result of Market, 387 00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:38,500 It's as opposed to, you know, the state and certainly if you 388 00:21:38,500 --> 00:21:42,000 look at civil asset forfeiture, not to mention taxation, to the 389 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:46,500 tune of trillions or the wars that states initiate that maybe 390 00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:48,300 just from a cost-benefit analysis. 391 00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:51,800 It's not worth having, you know, maybe there's better ways to 392 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,600 protect your property, then the state stealing, 40 percent. 393 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,400 Annually. Sure. 394 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:57,900 I look, I'm highly sympathetic that. 395 00:21:57,900 --> 00:22:02,300 I mean, but my concern is that things like the civil court 396 00:22:02,300 --> 00:22:06,200 system. Unless we volunteered, you know, 397 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,900 to leave out of the consented to it beforehand. 398 00:22:09,100 --> 00:22:11,500 It's not clear, why? We should ban be bound by it. 399 00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:15,100 So some of these mechanisms. I'm a little worried. 400 00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:17,300 Again. They presuppose legitimacy. 401 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,100 I'm also a little more skeptical that in the state of nature. 402 00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:25,600 However, sophisticated that we would have. 403 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,900 Peace and and sort of, you know, clearly functioning markets, a, 404 00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:32,100 perhaps. We wouldn't, I would hope we 405 00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:34,700 would, but I'm just I'm not fully confident. 406 00:22:34,700 --> 00:22:38,200 That's the case. I'm not sure that we have 407 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:45,800 historical precedent for that, and I suspect there's reason to 408 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,000 doubt that things wouldn't to generate pretty quickly, but 409 00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:53,500 perhaps I'm wrong. I do I want to continue with us 410 00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:55,700 some of these thought, experiment experience. 411 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,500 I know that you have a written about abortion. 412 00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:03,300 There is a paper that I came across by Thompson, a defense of 413 00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:07,000 abortion and she has by far the most famous paper on the topic. 414 00:23:07,500 --> 00:23:09,700 See, I never heard of it until two days ago. 415 00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:15,200 So the the violinist is you wake up in the morning and find 416 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,800 yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist a 417 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,200 famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a 418 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:26,400 fatal kidney ailment and the Society of music lovers has 419 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,000 canvas all the available medical records and found that you alone 420 00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:33,800 have the right blood type to help they have therefore 421 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,000 kidnapped, you and last night, the violinist circulatory system 422 00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:41,400 was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to 423 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,100 extract poisons from his blood, as well as your own if he is 424 00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:48,300 unplugged from you. Now, he will die, but in nine 425 00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:51,900 months, he will have recovered from his Moment and can safely 426 00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:54,800 be unplugged from you. So I guess the question is, do 427 00:23:54,800 --> 00:24:00,000 you have a right to unplug? Can you explain why this was so 428 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,000 popular and why? This is an important thought 429 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,800 experiment and where you stand on it. 430 00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:08,900 So it's an enormously popular and an important thought 431 00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:10,900 experiment. This is one of if not the most 432 00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:14,200 widely read philosophy paper in the world. 433 00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:18,900 The reason it was so groundbreaking was that 434 00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:24,200 traditionally The debate over abortion was thought to rest on 435 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:30,200 whether or not the fetus has a right to life. but, What 436 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,900 Thompson was showing is even if you say that, you know, whether 437 00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:35,500 or not the fetus is a person with a full set of moral rights, 438 00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:41,600 what Thompson's move was it was to concede that the fetus is a 439 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,500 person. Just like you or me say that the 440 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:49,600 concede that the fetus has the same rights that you and I have. 441 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,600 But argue that still does not show that abortion is wrong in 442 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,000 particular. That's unjust. 443 00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:04,800 So what the violinist thought experiment shows is that you do 444 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:10,400 not have a duty to save someone, even if you have less at stake 445 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,500 and they do. So, in the case of the 446 00:25:12,508 --> 00:25:14,700 violinist, the violence is going to die. 447 00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:17,600 If you just disconnect yourself, nevertheless, because you didn't 448 00:25:18,300 --> 00:25:20,600 valve the consent to connect yourself to the violinist 449 00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:24,900 intuitively. It's just more proof that it's 450 00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:27,300 permissible to disconnect yourself. 451 00:25:27,900 --> 00:25:31,800 Even though this was going to result in the violinist death. 452 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:38,600 So, the more specific. Lesson that Thompson draws from 453 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,700 this is that the right to life does not entail a right to be 454 00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:45,700 saved. So merely because the violinist 455 00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:49,200 has a right to life, does not mean that the violinist has a 456 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,700 right to be saved. So I think in terms of thinking 457 00:25:51,700 --> 00:25:54,100 about the structure abortion, I think it's an incredibly helpful 458 00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:57,200 thought experiment, and I think that Thompson's work in general 459 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,900 is just groundbreaking and lots of different areas that said, in 460 00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:02,300 terms of thinking about abortion. 461 00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:06,000 I don't think, I think the example is not the central run, 462 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,700 we should focus. And the reason is because it's 463 00:26:07,700 --> 00:26:10,100 so letting die, right. So, if you disconnect yourself 464 00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:13,100 from a fetus, the person to disconnect themselves from the 465 00:26:13,100 --> 00:26:18,500 fetus and the person who does the stories about he is letting 466 00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:23,700 the, the violinist died in abortion. 467 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,400 The fetus is killed, right? It's not. 468 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:31,400 It's very in most cases leaving aside. 469 00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:33,800 The abortion pill. In most cases. 470 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,100 The abortion is killed. If the Portion is killed. 471 00:26:38,700 --> 00:26:43,400 Then we have to say okay then, you know, could you would it be 472 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:48,400 okay to let's say, cut the vinyl, listen half or is that 473 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:53,600 not the proper analogy? So, to your question, do I think 474 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,200 this is do? I think it's an important 475 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:57,900 thought experiment. That's incredibly important. 476 00:26:57,900 --> 00:26:59,700 Do I think it's extraordinary really helpful? 477 00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:00,900 Yeah. I think it's extremely helpful. 478 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:02,800 Do I think it's the one that's most on point now? 479 00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:05,600 And that's because the violence case involved, with letting die 480 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:11,200 and abortion and piles of Do you have a closer thought experiment 481 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,900 to understanding the root morality of the abortion 482 00:27:14,900 --> 00:27:16,600 argument? Yeah, I have to. 483 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:25,200 So one is imagine you're in prison and a person is, you 484 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,200 know, so if a weaker person committed, let's call him 485 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,000 Sheldon. And then you have a big powerful 486 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:32,900 individual. Let's call them big amp, right? 487 00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:36,500 So big, a has, you know, the 450 pound bench and you know, he's a 488 00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:39,800 sexual predator. Isn't he's also hemophiliac. 489 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:47,600 So the only way that Shelby can defend himself is to use a 490 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,200 prison knife. Let's call Shank to defend 491 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:56,600 himself against big am. And so the issue is, can he kill 492 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,600 began prevent began from sexually victimized him or 493 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,200 baguette was already sexualizing victim? 494 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,700 And can you kill him to make him stop? 495 00:28:06,100 --> 00:28:08,300 My intuition is, yes, I think most people most people's 496 00:28:08,300 --> 00:28:12,600 intuitions are yes, which shows that a bodily Invasion allows 497 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:17,400 for lethal Force. So, if the pro-choice sighs, I 498 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,900 can show that pregnancy is morally similar to a bottle 499 00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:24,700 Invasion. Then there's, at least an 500 00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:30,100 initial case to suggest that the woman can use lethal Force to 501 00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:32,400 either prevent the bottle The Invasion or to make it stop. 502 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,900 And what is the second thought? Experiment, you have thought 503 00:28:36,900 --> 00:28:39,100 experiment. And by the way, these are both. 504 00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:43,500 I have both he's in the boat for my book. 505 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,700 Does the pro-life view makes sense? 506 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,500 The second experiment, is we have a Nazi woman was in prison. 507 00:28:52,700 --> 00:28:55,700 Should not outside a Jewish woman who was in a Nazi death 508 00:28:55,700 --> 00:29:00,300 camp and the Nazi officers give her the following choice. 509 00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:02,700 You can either have sex or Nazi officer or you. 510 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,400 Can carry a Nazi couples fetus. The term? 511 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,800 and the question is, The first is going to be a case of rape, 512 00:29:13,100 --> 00:29:15,300 right? Because in essence, you know, 513 00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:18,100 the third option is death so you can be killed. 514 00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:21,200 He can, you know, we have sex with a mouse, a Nazi, officer 515 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,200 carry a Nazi couples fetus the term. 516 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:29,000 So Because we think that you can use lethal Force, prevent rape. 517 00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:32,100 It seems that you could use lethal Force to prevent that 518 00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:35,600 option. But if the third option that is 519 00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:44,000 tearing, the Nazi couples fetus to term if that were as much of 520 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,500 a an injustice or much of the right infringement as the sex, 521 00:29:47,500 --> 00:29:51,700 then that would suggest that that also warrants lethal force. 522 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:58,400 And I do in fact think that A Jewish woman in that situation, 523 00:29:59,500 --> 00:30:04,400 might have a hard time deciding which is worse and that, that 524 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,700 would be it in. There would be nothing wrong 525 00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:10,200 where she decide to decide that the sex is worse, than carrying 526 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:14,500 the the fetus term, which suggests that the bodily 527 00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:22,200 invasion of a fetus is severe. That is it is at least as severe 528 00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:28,200 as that of a rape and because rape, Warrants the use of lethal 529 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,800 force in self-defense. So does an unwanted pregnancy. 530 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,800 So here's the thought experiment, I use they rest on 531 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,900 the they assume that the fetus does not have a right to be 532 00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:42,500 inside the woman and that's going to require separate 533 00:30:42,500 --> 00:30:47,300 augmentation. S s says separate argument and 534 00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:51,700 do you see the difference between, you know, a woman being 535 00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:55,700 five months pregnant and not wanting the child versus having 536 00:30:55,700 --> 00:30:59,600 a five-year-old child and, you know, just deciding to not feed 537 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,300 it anymore and essentially starve. 538 00:31:01,300 --> 00:31:04,600 It is the difference between Not that the fetus, would be 539 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,100 considered a trespasser. Where's the five-year-old is 540 00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:12,500 alive and able to, you know, survive outside of the mother? 541 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,700 Therefore, she has an obligation to find a household for it. 542 00:31:16,900 --> 00:31:18,800 Do you see a difference? Believe you said, if I rolled, 543 00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:21,200 there's a big difference, just in terms of one, is a bodily 544 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,400 invade? Or the other is not. 545 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,700 So that, that's that's right. One involves our trust past. 546 00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:28,500 One doesn't in terms of what is the obligation, the woman. 547 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,800 You might think that she is validly consented to. 548 00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:36,000 Take care of the five-year-old and because she's done. 549 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,800 So she then has an obligation or at least she has to make sure 550 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,300 that someone's going to fulfill that obligation before she sees 551 00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:46,500 to do it. It's a little murky as to how we 552 00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:49,800 should think about that issue. But the that they're different 553 00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:51,900 is exactly for the reasons. You mentioned, one of the trust 554 00:31:51,900 --> 00:31:54,800 pass. The other is not okay. 555 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:01,300 There is a movie called, Don't breathe in, which a girl is 556 00:32:01,300 --> 00:32:04,300 driving drunk. And then, Kills another girl. 557 00:32:04,700 --> 00:32:09,300 So the father of the girl who died kidnaps, the girl, who 558 00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:14,700 killed his daughter and impregnates her so she can give 559 00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:17,800 him another child. Do you think? 560 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,600 Because that's the closest you can come to maybe just not 561 00:32:23,100 --> 00:32:25,400 retribution, but, you know, paying back. 562 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,700 Something that you took away. Do you think that that would be 563 00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:31,300 morally Justified under any circumstance? 564 00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:32,800 Forcing, someone to have a child? 565 00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:35,300 Old, because they killed your child. 566 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,900 So, I need some time to think through that. 567 00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:47,900 Thought experiment. My initial view would be, no, 568 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:55,400 because I'm worried about the way in which compensatory 569 00:32:55,400 --> 00:33:00,100 Justice Works in that instance. So, but we asked how I don't 570 00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:02,200 know the answer to that. I'd have to have to take some 571 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,100 time to thank for it. So I don't have the terminal 572 00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:07,100 thoughts on. The name of movies. 573 00:33:07,100 --> 00:33:08,900 Don't breathe. Correct. 574 00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:11,900 It's actually a horror movie, which I usually hate, but I 575 00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:14,500 loved this one. I thought this was great. 576 00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:15,900 I'm unfamiliar with that on this issue. 577 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:23,100 I mean, I have to think about the the mechanism of 578 00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:30,700 compensatory Justice. And yeah, so I'd have to think 579 00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:34,700 of it through it. Yeah, Michael humor a philosophy 580 00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:37,500 professor at University of Boulder. 581 00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:41,100 Colorado has the Starvin. Marvin thought exact thought 582 00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:43,100 experiment where he says Starvin? 583 00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:49,300 Marvin is going to the store but it's in a different town and in 584 00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:53,600 between towns, you stop him and say I don't want your kind being 585 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,800 in this town. You need to go back to your 586 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,700 house as a causal result of this. 587 00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:02,600 Marvin does not go to the store to get food and starve to death. 588 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,100 He says you were there for responsible for his death. 589 00:34:06,500 --> 00:34:10,900 He then says this is analogous to government's stopping people 590 00:34:10,900 --> 00:34:14,500 from immigrating into certain geographical areas. 591 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,500 And as a calls result of poor people, stay in poor countries 592 00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:19,900 and die. Do you think it is morally? 593 00:34:19,900 --> 00:34:24,400 Analogous for immigration? Restrictions to equal? 594 00:34:24,699 --> 00:34:28,600 You just saying, I'm going to murder you if you go to the 595 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,699 grocery store without my permission, right? 596 00:34:32,699 --> 00:34:37,500 So I as I don't on Michael humor is an outstanding philosopher. 597 00:34:37,500 --> 00:34:39,699 Just a real pleasure to read some breakthrough and all sorts 598 00:34:39,699 --> 00:34:42,900 of breakthroughs and all sorts of areas and just it just an 599 00:34:42,900 --> 00:34:49,300 intellectual giant. So, On this case though. 600 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:54,500 I don't agree with Michael humor. 601 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,000 You might think there's this Collective property. 602 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:03,200 So for example, you might think there's a difference between 603 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:08,200 going to the store where the store owner invites you in and 604 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,900 going on to people's property when it's owned by a collection 605 00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:16,800 and the collection Valley descends from a Allowing you on 606 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,800 to it or does not valid consent to allow you on to it. 607 00:35:20,100 --> 00:35:23,300 So for example, imagine there's a country club, a fancy Country 608 00:35:23,300 --> 00:35:27,500 Club in, in Westchester New York and the country club says look, 609 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,300 no one may enter here except for the members. 610 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:38,000 And so you have a bunch of, let's say A large group of just 611 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:43,500 has example, a group acts like a large group of paternity 612 00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:45,300 Brothers decide. They want to enter the 613 00:35:45,300 --> 00:35:47,000 fraternity. Are they want to enter the 614 00:35:47,008 --> 00:35:49,300 country club and use the facilities? 615 00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:52,000 Go swimming, eat the food playing, the tennis play, tennis 616 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,500 and Tennis Courts, you know, play golf and, you know, relax 617 00:35:56,500 --> 00:36:01,600 in the steam room and you might think well, they have not been 618 00:36:01,900 --> 00:36:06,400 given permission by the people who own the country club and 619 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:10,400 it's collectively owned. So they may not enter. 620 00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:14,000 This is true. Even if let's say instead of 621 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,100 turning Rose. Let's say it's a bunch of 622 00:36:15,107 --> 00:36:18,800 starving. And they want to break into the 623 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,600 country club and eat the food to stay alive. 624 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,100 Now. This might be permissible All 625 00:36:23,100 --> 00:36:25,800 Things Considered because their interest in staying alive, might 626 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:33,100 override the country club Owners rights, but It would still be 627 00:36:33,100 --> 00:36:36,100 unjust you would be case of overriding people's rights are 628 00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:40,200 case of Injustice, that was justified because of prevent a 629 00:36:40,207 --> 00:36:43,800 catastrophe. But it would not be just 630 00:36:44,100 --> 00:36:46,000 similarly. If you think, parts of the 631 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,500 United States, like our roads and certain certain benefits. 632 00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:53,900 We hand out, medical benefits, cool benefits for things like 633 00:36:53,900 --> 00:36:57,900 that are collectively owned. Then you might think that people 634 00:36:57,900 --> 00:37:03,300 may not enter and use Collective property even Doing so would 635 00:37:03,300 --> 00:37:07,000 have good results. As a side that I'm not sure what 636 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:13,500 have good results, but the there is an issue as, to whether or 637 00:37:13,500 --> 00:37:15,200 not, there's a property, right infringement. 638 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:21,800 I think there is so four humors example to work for humans 639 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,100 analogy to work. It would have to be the case 640 00:37:24,100 --> 00:37:28,000 that when the people came into this country without the 641 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,200 permission. In fact against the laws of the 642 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,100 country and started using the collective property and taking 643 00:37:34,100 --> 00:37:38,100 some of the resources. That this was not an 644 00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:39,900 infringement of anyone's Collective, right? 645 00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:44,400 I do not think that's correct. So again, I mean, I think it's I 646 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,600 think it's a great thought experiment and like I said, I 647 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,000 you know, I read lots of humors books. 648 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,500 I mean, he's a fantastic philosopher, but on this one, I 649 00:37:51,508 --> 00:37:55,200 don't agree that he's right. Also, there's an issue of at 650 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,800 what you know, so if you thought this were true, is there a limit 651 00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,500 as to how many people could enter the country. 652 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:02,600 So the US has what roughly 330 million. 653 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,800 People, imagine that a billion people from around the world, 654 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,400 went into the country. Is there any any point with you? 655 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,300 Hey, look, we don't want to Country. 656 00:38:11,900 --> 00:38:15,300 We have, you know, point three billion people today. 657 00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:20,000 We don't want a country of 1.3 billion could with a response. 658 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:21,800 Me. Well, look, you know, they're 659 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,500 not infringe on anyone's property rights. 660 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:28,000 So what's the objection? If they are infringing on 661 00:38:28,008 --> 00:38:31,000 someone's property rights for the same reason people to Billy 662 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,500 and you could keep that one. So, it seems to me as an issue 663 00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:38,600 as to, whether or not there's a property rights, what whether 664 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,100 there is a property, right? That's being infringed. 665 00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:45,200 I think there is and its Collective property, right? 666 00:38:45,300 --> 00:38:47,600 It's also the case that usually, when people come across the 667 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,500 border. They also across private 668 00:38:49,500 --> 00:38:52,500 property, which is another probably an individual property, 669 00:38:52,500 --> 00:38:55,700 right Invasion. So yeah. 670 00:38:57,700 --> 00:39:00,900 Thomas, E. Woods, Junior, a PhD from 671 00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:08,400 Columbia says that, imagine you have a society where Walmart, 672 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:12,200 controls the schooling system. They do this by taking a 673 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,600 percentage of the value of what they say. 674 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:20,200 The value of your property is and only some people are allowed 675 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,200 to opt out of this. It's compulsory to fund its 676 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,100 compulsory to attend. Some people can opt out. 677 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,300 Out. But you have to get Walmart's 678 00:39:28,300 --> 00:39:33,400 permission to opt out of the Walmart education system and you 679 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,300 spend a lot of time talking about the amazing 680 00:39:35,300 --> 00:39:37,800 accomplishments of the Walmart CEOs. 681 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,300 And there's rumors the First wall Mart CEO never told a lie, 682 00:39:42,300 --> 00:39:46,600 and without Walmart terrible. Things would happen. 683 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:53,200 Would this Society in any rational way be able to just lie 684 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,500 judge the actions of Walmart. He says, He says, well for the 685 00:39:57,500 --> 00:40:00,800 same reason, governments engaging in any sort of 686 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,500 Education funding especially coerced funding compulsory 687 00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:07,900 attended government schools makes it so though. 688 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,100 Well of democracy is so poisoned that it renders almost 689 00:40:12,100 --> 00:40:14,100 everything illegitimate. What do you think about this 690 00:40:14,100 --> 00:40:18,600 thought experiment? So this this kind of two 691 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:20,700 features to it. I'm not familiar with this one, 692 00:40:20,700 --> 00:40:26,300 but one feature of is would should Walmart be able to to 693 00:40:26,300 --> 00:40:30,300 coerce people. And this seems to be similar to 694 00:40:30,300 --> 00:40:33,300 the issue of Dewey Valley consent, the government. 695 00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:38,200 Now, there are three standard objections to the consent. 696 00:40:39,300 --> 00:40:41,500 To the notion that we justify the state. 697 00:40:41,500 --> 00:40:44,200 Through valid consent, one objection is that we simply 698 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,300 don't do something, right? The simply that it's not the 699 00:40:46,308 --> 00:40:47,300 case. We valid consent. 700 00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:49,500 If we don't take an eye out for an example, only at least many 701 00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:54,400 of us have not s, the claim is even if we did valve e-consent, 702 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:59,000 it would be involuntary to use David Humes example, it would be 703 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,400 like someone on a ship at Sea who was taken against his will 704 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,300 and put on a ship. The cap says, look if you don't 705 00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:07,600 like, you know, if you don't like my legitimate Authority, 706 00:41:07,900 --> 00:41:10,500 feel free to leave. Price would be too high to 707 00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:12,100 leave. Similarly. 708 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,300 The price is too high to leave the state. 709 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,000 Some people can't even leave the state. 710 00:41:16,100 --> 00:41:18,400 So the idea is that either, you can't descend to the price of 711 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,000 the Senate's, too high. The third objection, which comes 712 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:27,200 from a John Simmons, is that you need to give prior consent 713 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:32,800 before the state even Can give you this choice, right? 714 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,700 You have to consent that the state to put the same position 715 00:41:36,700 --> 00:41:41,300 by which can give you a choice. Either validate us through 716 00:41:41,300 --> 00:41:43,800 consent. You know, that we have the, we 717 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,700 have the standing by which to give you the choice that for 718 00:41:47,700 --> 00:41:50,100 this territory. You can either set the consent 719 00:41:50,100 --> 00:41:52,500 or descent. But what you can't do is you 720 00:41:52,508 --> 00:41:53,700 can't set up a separate government. 721 00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:55,800 You can't set up no government, those, your options. 722 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,100 So, there's an issue as to how you get around those. 723 00:41:59,700 --> 00:42:04,500 So leaving those aside, the notion that you couldn't 724 00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:10,900 criticize a government. I mean, I'm not sure why that 725 00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:13,800 would be the case. We do criticize the government. 726 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,100 The government said, the criticism of government has 727 00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:19,800 resulted in math changes of it. Some of these, I don't agree 728 00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:21,200 with. In fact, a lot of the changes, I 729 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:24,800 don't agree with but the fact of the matter is that we do 730 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,900 criticize it and we have mechanisms by which change it, 731 00:42:28,900 --> 00:42:31,300 there are parts of the Constitution that tell us how we 732 00:42:31,300 --> 00:42:35,300 can change the Constitution and through a change the government. 733 00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:39,000 We have elected representatives that can vote for changes. 734 00:42:39,900 --> 00:42:43,200 So I'm not sure why the structure doesn't laugh or 735 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,100 change. His argument might be that 736 00:42:46,100 --> 00:42:48,900 psychologically. It's very difficult to change. 737 00:42:48,900 --> 00:42:54,000 Once you have a group that's embedded in power and I don't 738 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:59,400 know enough about this. So I'm not sure that I see why 739 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,300 in theory, you can't change things in practice. 740 00:43:03,300 --> 00:43:05,300 I'm not sure. I know enough why. 741 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,500 You couldn't change the government. 742 00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,200 Now, these next couple are not necessarily thought experiments, 743 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:16,900 but just way of understanding concepts, John has Ness. 744 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,100 I forget where he works. I should have written it down, 745 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,200 but he wrote a paper called the myth of the rule of law. 746 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:26,400 And he says, before you travel to different states, you're able 747 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,800 to go to other states without having to read all the laws and 748 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,400 you're able to cooperate with people. 749 00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:33,700 You're even able to go to different countries where people 750 00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:36,400 speak different languages without Going to read all the 751 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,200 laws of every country even in America. 752 00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:43,000 The first amendment, when you read those words, you know, 753 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,800 freedom of speech. This still doesn't allow for 754 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:47,600 sharing secrets in Wartime screaming. 755 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,100 Fire in a crowded theater doesn't allow for you to 756 00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:51,800 Advocate violence against someone. 757 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:56,400 So there's no objective rule of law for us to delegate to all 758 00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:00,700 that could ever exist is the arbitrary more or less laws of 759 00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:02,800 some people. Do you agree with this? 760 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,300 I must had a jailhouse. Another excellent philosopher. 761 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:12,400 It's always worth reading. So do I agree with this? 762 00:44:14,100 --> 00:44:16,900 I mean this is going to get us into a deeper issue as to 763 00:44:16,900 --> 00:44:20,500 whether or not there is such a thing as law and also if there 764 00:44:20,500 --> 00:44:26,700 is do we have a duty to obey it? So, I mean, they're different 765 00:44:26,700 --> 00:44:29,800 theories out there of what law is on one Theory laws. 766 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:34,700 Just a collection of rules with a certain structure to it might 767 00:44:34,700 --> 00:44:37,000 is there's one rule which would validate the other rule. 768 00:44:37,000 --> 00:44:40,500 The rule that validates them can itself be validated that comes 769 00:44:40,500 --> 00:44:43,600 from HLA heart. Another theory which comes from 770 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,700 Ronald dworkin says the rule consists of some combination 771 00:44:46,700 --> 00:44:54,900 rules and principles and the. Yeah, so the The principles fit 772 00:44:54,900 --> 00:44:57,500 in have to fit both fit and justify the rules. 773 00:44:58,300 --> 00:45:02,400 So there's an issue as to whether or not either one of 774 00:45:02,408 --> 00:45:05,700 these things is an adequate description of what law is. 775 00:45:06,300 --> 00:45:09,300 And again, that's going to be a fairly complex issue. 776 00:45:10,500 --> 00:45:13,700 The separate issue is do we had a duty to obey the law? 777 00:45:13,700 --> 00:45:19,400 And I guess, I think that assuming that there is Law, and 778 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,200 if it is the case that the government has legitimate Ready, 779 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,200 and if it's further case, we have do to obey the government, 780 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,200 then it would seem that we have a duty to obey the law. 781 00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:33,300 Now you're right that when we cross into a new state, we don't 782 00:45:33,300 --> 00:45:36,300 look the laws up. Most people never know what the 783 00:45:36,300 --> 00:45:38,300 laws are at least in plenty of areas. 784 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,800 And for a lot of people, even if they did look it up, it would be 785 00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,600 in unreadable. The laws are you know, when you 786 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,500 actually read them, this surprisingly murky. 787 00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:55,600 So how can you be duty-bound to read to follow rules that you 788 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,400 don't understand? It's not clear that you 789 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:04,000 reasonably can understand them. So it's kind of an issue as to 790 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:09,400 whether or not you ought to do something, when it's not clear 791 00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,300 that you can know what it is that you want to do. 792 00:46:13,100 --> 00:46:17,300 So I think I think that it does raise a very interesting issue. 793 00:46:19,100 --> 00:46:20,700 Again, it's going to be a fairly complex here. 794 00:46:20,700 --> 00:46:24,100 There might be an issue ought you to obey the laws, and are 795 00:46:24,100 --> 00:46:26,500 you blame really for not doing so are those are separate 796 00:46:26,500 --> 00:46:28,800 issues. So again, I think it's going to 797 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:35,900 be fairly complex. My final question for you is, if 798 00:46:35,900 --> 00:46:40,000 you could recommend three books to anyone interested in 799 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,800 philosophy, they sort of have the love of wisdom. 800 00:46:43,900 --> 00:46:46,500 They want to be able to think rationally, see through the 801 00:46:46,500 --> 00:46:50,800 propaganda, not be manipulated and, you know, sort of have 802 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,600 self-knowledge. What's three books? 803 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:57,200 Would you recommend? Well, in terms of I mean, I 804 00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:02,100 think the best books in terms of introduction of philosophy, are 805 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,700 these sort of collection works because you see lots of 806 00:47:04,700 --> 00:47:08,800 different arguments. So in terms of someone who has 807 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,200 not seen a lot of philosophy, I would get an introduction of 808 00:47:12,207 --> 00:47:17,400 philosophy book, the ones I've enjoyed over the years teaching. 809 00:47:17,900 --> 00:47:21,600 Our this is not an, I don't know what version it's on. 810 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,300 Now, that's a lot of years ago, which is Joel, feinberg's 811 00:47:24,300 --> 00:47:25,200 reasons. Reasons. 812 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,900 I'm responsibility the lowest point man's quest for truth. 813 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,200 I find a piece that are really short and readable collection. 814 00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,700 In terms of political philosophy. 815 00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:38,700 You've cited, Anarchy, State, and Utopia. 816 00:47:38,700 --> 00:47:41,500 I find that just a fantastic font of ideas. 817 00:47:42,300 --> 00:47:45,500 So these sorts of these sorts of edited collections, I think of 818 00:47:45,500 --> 00:47:48,900 the best, the best entree into philosophy because they allow 819 00:47:48,900 --> 00:47:53,500 you to explore a lot of the great minds reason at work put 820 00:47:53,500 --> 00:47:56,300 forth by George shares, Stephen Kahn. 821 00:47:56,300 --> 00:48:00,200 If you get the other editors are so any of these edit editions, I 822 00:48:00,207 --> 00:48:02,100 think are an excellent entree into philosophy. 823 00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:05,600 Excellent. Well, mr. 824 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:07,700 Kirchner. Thank you so much for your time. 825 00:48:07,700 --> 00:48:10,500 I greatly appreciate it. Please, check out the 826 00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:13,600 description below to get access to mr. 827 00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,400 Kirchner's books, as well as his other work in philosophy, sir. 828 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,700 Thank you so much for your time. Well, thank you for having me. 829 00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:22,100 I really appreciate the interest and I appreciate the excellent 830 00:48:22,100 --> 00:48:24,100 question to ask, so it's been a real pleasure. 831 00:48:24,100 --> 00:48:24,600 Thank you.