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Questions for you, a lot of 
criticism of the free market is 

2
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not unique to the free market. 
For example, there is greed, and

3
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there is dog-eat-dog competition
and it can disrupt and disorder.

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And there's no guarantee of my 
safety. 

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Well, that all applies tenfold 
to the state because you dance 

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data, funding them and they have
no competition. 

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Do you think there's anything 
that uniquely applies negatively

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to the free market? 
That justifies the existence of 

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a state? 
I really don't think there is a 

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really don't think there is I 
Sigh. 

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I'm I tend to believe that 
states are kind of inevitable in

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that. 
There's always going to be an 

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organization with a comparative 
advantage in violence, which is 

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kind of the way that my advisor 
to find a state when I was in 

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graduate school, but I don't 
think it's necessary. 

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So we're like this song in The 
Sound of Music with a girl 

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singing. 
Anything You Can Do, I Can Do 

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Better. 
I would say anything states, can

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do markets, do better and I 
don't think the state is 

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necessary for any of the 
Problems that we any of the 

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problems that we, that we, that 
we want to fix or any of the 

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problems that we want to solve. 
I think the last four years have

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been a really nice illustration 
of the difference between 

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between the market and the 
state. 

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When you consider the 
administration of Donald Trump 

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and a lot of people are 
horrified at Donald Trump. 

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As just it just a crass. 
Human being who is just as an 

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opportunist and assume for sake 
of the sake of argument that 

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everything everybody says about 
Trump is right. 

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It is right that he's he's the 
Worst of the worst? 

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Okay. 
Well, would you, would you 

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prefer a world in which he's 
doing suspect real estate deals 

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in New Jersey and New York. 
To a world in which he has his 

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finger on the nuclear button. 
And I think the answer is. 

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Yes, I would much rather Donald 
Trump be confined his confined 

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his efforts to, to trying to 
make money in the real estate 

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market rather than trying to 
make America great Again by 

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pursuing. 
All sorts of boneheaded 

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policies, like immigration, 
restrictions and tariffs. 

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Yeah. 
In your book, political 

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philosophy and introduction and 
in your book. 

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Why not capitalism, you 
mentioned this excellent book, 

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the problem of political 
Authority, and examination of 

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the right to coerce and the duty
to obey by Michael humor. 

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00:02:22,100 --> 00:02:25,100
Well, what is so important about
this book? 

46
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:27,100
Yeah. 
It is one of my favorite books. 

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So one of the main questions in 
political philosophy is what if 

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anything justifies government? 
And in particular, government's 

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00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:38,500
claim to have two special moral 
Powers, which That means they're

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different words and ones. 
He uses. 

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I call them legitimacy and 
Authority legitimacy refers to a

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00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,400
supposed governmental power to 
create and enforce rules within 

53
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over certain geographic area 
against certain people. 

54
00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:54,700
So, governments are a proper 
subset of a society, which 

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claimed the right to have 
Monopoly power in coercively 

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enforcing rules. 
That's what they are. 

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00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:02,400
So, what makes government 
legitimate? 

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If anything, why would it have 
the right to create these rules?

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00:03:05,300 --> 00:03:07,500
Why would it be allowed to 
enforce rules that others 

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cannot? 
Not Authority is another 

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purported power of government 
where to have authority, as to 

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have something like a power to 
impose. 

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Another is an obligation to 
obey. 

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So, if I say to you right now, 
you may not smoke marijuana. 

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You don't think you have any 
obligation to follow my orders, 

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right? 
I'm I order you. 

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Not to smoke pot. 
You're like, who are you? 

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00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,100
You don't have to listen to you,
but when governments order us, 

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not to smoke pot, most people 
believe that we acquire an 

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00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,700
obligation, not to do it in 
virtue of government, issuing, 

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that order. 
So, The perplexing, why would 

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government have legitimacy? 
Why would it have authority? 

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And what Mike doesn't that book 
is very carefully, goes through,

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00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,300
you know, a couple thousand 
years of arguments, trying to 

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show that governments have 
authority and legitimacy and 

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00:03:50,900 --> 00:03:52,800
it's amazing how bad these 
arguments are. 

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00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,400
It's like, basically, they all 
fail, you know, so the argument 

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00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,100
that you get in Heist, like in 
Middle School that your teachers

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00:03:58,100 --> 00:04:01,600
tell you is well government has 
Authority because you consent to

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00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,100
government and it's like, no. 
You don't. 

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00:04:03,108 --> 00:04:05,100
There's no interesting. 
There's no plausible. 

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00:04:05,100 --> 00:04:07,600
Interpretation of the 
relationship between you and 

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00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,300
your A government under which 
its consent, they'll make other 

84
00:04:11,300 --> 00:04:14,100
kinds of arguments as well. 
So my can Ferry carefully goes 

85
00:04:14,100 --> 00:04:16,200
through and shows that none of 
these arguments work. 

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00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:19,200
He then gives us a psychological
diagnosis about why we might 

87
00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,300
believe in government Authority 
even though we don't have any 

88
00:04:21,300 --> 00:04:23,900
good arguments on its behalf. 
And that's the first half the 

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00:04:23,907 --> 00:04:25,100
first half, you just basically 
shows. 

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00:04:25,100 --> 00:04:26,800
We don't have any reason to 
believe in Authority or 

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00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,500
legitimacy. 
The second half then asks is 

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00:04:30,500 --> 00:04:32,900
anarchism feasible. 
So if we don't have reasonably 

93
00:04:32,900 --> 00:04:35,500
even Authority or legitimacy, 
what about the alternative 

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00:04:35,500 --> 00:04:38,800
anarchism and Mike says look, we
don't With it would work. 

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00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,400
Maybe it would be a disaster. 
But he gives us some grounds for

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00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,200
thinking empirically, that it 
would work better than people 

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00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,200
think a lot of the things they 
think would happen under 

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00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,600
Anarchy. 
Just, it's not as bad as they 

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00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,900
think and some other books you 
might read on that you're 

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00:04:50,900 --> 00:04:53,100
interested in, in Turk is among 
there's a book called Anarchy 

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Unbound, which is a nice kind of
case study in how anarchism is 

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actually, I think the subtitle 
is why anarchism works better 

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00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,200
than you think. 
And another book by Edward 

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00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,500
string and called private 
governance, where he points out 

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00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:06,600
that. 
As a matter of fact, this is an 

106
00:05:06,608 --> 00:05:09,500
empirical claim. 
Most of the government are 

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governance, the rule enforcing 
that protects your rights in 

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00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,900
your own life is not done by 
government. 

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It's done through extra legal 
channels. 

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00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:23,900
It's incredible that he can be. 
So skeptical about market 

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failure, but doesn't hold those 
same principles to the state. 

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00:05:27,300 --> 00:05:30,600
So people don't have tons of 
information in the market. 

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So, they make bad decisions. 
What are people omniscient about

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00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,600
politics and politicians? 
Of course. 

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Well, there's greed in the 
Place, there's greed in 

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00:05:39,008 --> 00:05:42,000
politics. 
Do you see anything that 

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uniquely applies to the monitor?
The free market in a unique way 

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00:05:46,300 --> 00:05:50,700
that - and unique to the market 
that doesn't apply to the state 

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00:05:50,700 --> 00:05:52,900
tenfold? 
Considering you can't opt out of

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00:05:52,900 --> 00:05:54,900
funding them and they don't have
competitors. 

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00:05:55,900 --> 00:05:58,800
Well, let's see. 
It's a tough question. 

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00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,200
It's a good one. 
I'll, let me come back to that 

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00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,500
in just a minute. 
So mean, here's the way, was 

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very revealing to me about Paul 
Krugman. 

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Now, Tyler Cowen did an 
interview with him and Tyler. 

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Is able to actually ask him some
really hard questions about why?

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Exactly. 
Would you think the government 

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would do? 
Well, and here's the thing. 

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00:06:14,500 --> 00:06:18,400
Paul Krugman doesn't think the 
government's do, well, when you 

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00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:20,600
actually get them on on that 
topic. 

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So, yeah, this government really
screwed up royally screwed up. 

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And Tyler actually had what to 
me, is the million-dollar 

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question of like, you're like, 
you know, you're very partisan 

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00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:31,100
Paul. 
You're very you really hate the 

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00:06:31,100 --> 00:06:33,200
Republicans. 
You really like the Democrats 

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00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:36,600
and yet, if we look at a bunch 
of states, where they have one 

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00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:38,900
party Democratic rule. 
Happy with Ivan what they've 

138
00:06:38,900 --> 00:06:42,200
done. 
So dude, what gives right and 

139
00:06:42,300 --> 00:06:46,500
Paul did not Dodge the question.
He did have some thoughts that 

140
00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:49,800
were satisfactory, but he did 
acknowledge the issue and even 

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00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,700
went and said yeah, well, you 
know when like your one party 

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Democratic stage, they wind up 
getting a lot of good ol, boys, 

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club is basically and they're 
kind, they're corrupt and they 

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00:06:59,100 --> 00:07:01,000
don't really worry about 
pleasing voters anymore. 

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00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,500
And sometimes they'll get a 
pragmatic, Republican governor 

146
00:07:03,500 --> 00:07:07,000
in the Northeast and that works 
out kind of make it better, but 

147
00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,900
no, it's not quite so, Say that.
But that was the gist of it. 

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00:07:10,100 --> 00:07:14,700
So, you know, I mean to me, it 
really comes down to like at a 

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00:07:14,700 --> 00:07:16,600
core level. 
Can you just say? 

150
00:07:17,700 --> 00:07:21,900
I just think I just think the 
government is going to mess it 

151
00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:24,300
up or is it just a matter of 
it's messed up a bunch of times.

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00:07:24,300 --> 00:07:27,700
But there's no General lesson in
other words, like I think for 

153
00:07:27,700 --> 00:07:29,200
someone like Paul Krugman, he's 
happy to admit. 

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00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,500
The government is screwed a 
bunch of times but doesn't want 

155
00:07:31,500 --> 00:07:33,500
to draw the lesson of. 
We should expect government to 

156
00:07:33,500 --> 00:07:35,800
keep screwing up in similar ways
in the future. 

157
00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,100
So he wants to think of that as 
Sort of accidental Sonia for him

158
00:07:40,100 --> 00:07:41,300
government failures, more 
accidental. 

159
00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:42,800
It just happened. 
Where's market? 

160
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,900
Failure is systematic. 
It's the way the system works. 

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00:07:45,900 --> 00:07:47,300
And if you were say, yeah. 
Well, that's the way the 

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00:07:47,300 --> 00:07:50,900
government works to in a way 
would just be very hard for him 

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00:07:50,900 --> 00:07:54,400
to deal with that and he does 
Dodge that but he's not blind 

164
00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,600
till he's a super smart guy, 
right? 

165
00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,800
And again when you frame it in 
the right way, then he does 

166
00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,700
actually acknowledge things that
you might be surprised to see 

167
00:08:02,707 --> 00:08:04,600
colleges. 
Something that was one of my 

168
00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:07,700
favorites and counters from I 
mean, I wasn't there but your 

169
00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,000
Favorite expressions of his love
the way that he thinks in terms 

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00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,600
of problems that markets have, 
the government's don't have ten 

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00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:18,000
times over. 
Let's see, I guess then we have 

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00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:24,100
a like the the probably the best
answer is the problem of get it,

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of, of the transactions costs. 
So the key thing about markets 

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00:08:28,100 --> 00:08:29,800
is to make things happen. 
You've got to get people to 

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00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:34,500
agree, and sometimes that is so 
expensive that it's just, no way

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00:08:34,500 --> 00:08:38,000
to get it to accomplish it and 
government, basically, The 

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ability to pull out a gun and 
saying, you know, we're going to

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save a lot of money on a 
negotiation now guess we're just

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00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:45,500
going to do it my way. 
Shut up. 

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00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:48,300
All right. 
Now that head causes a bunch of 

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other problems, but it does save
on negotiation costs. 

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All right, I'll give that one to
you. 

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00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,900
But but for the same reason we 
wouldn't say, you know, 

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00:08:57,300 --> 00:09:00,000
negotiation costs are high. 
Therefore the Koch brothers have

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00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,600
the right to initiate 
aggression, against peaceful 

186
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,200
people to lower them. 
We shouldn't give it to Doug 

187
00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,600
Ducey or Donald Trump either. 
Yeah. 

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00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,200
I agree, but still kind of 
thing. 

189
00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,300
I would point to excellent. 
Thank you. 

190
00:09:12,300 --> 00:09:17,800
Thank you for I'll often ask 
people if I don't like what 

191
00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,900
Olive Garden's doing and I go 
there, can I stop working there,

192
00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:24,900
or going there or what? 
If I do the same with Walmart? 

193
00:09:24,900 --> 00:09:27,300
And people look at me and say, 
Obviously, of course, you have 

194
00:09:27,300 --> 00:09:29,800
the right to stop funding them. 
However, when it comes to 

195
00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,000
government services, people 
don't extend that same courtesy,

196
00:09:33,700 --> 00:09:40,000
how was it that people have been
tricked or people understand 

197
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:43,400
government, to be held to a 
total different moral standard 

198
00:09:43,500 --> 00:09:47,900
than All other organizations. 
Yeah, well in general, you know,

199
00:09:47,900 --> 00:09:51,000
I work a great length on 
political psychology and a lot 

200
00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,900
of my work is on thinking about 
what political psychology tells 

201
00:09:53,900 --> 00:09:57,000
us about the justification of 
democracy and voting behavior. 

202
00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,100
And in general, you what 
political psychologist find is 

203
00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:03,700
that most people don't really 
have an ideology. 

204
00:10:03,700 --> 00:10:05,500
They don't really have strong 
political beliefs. 

205
00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:07,400
And the people who do for most 
of them. 

206
00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,000
It's kind of a post-hoc 
rationalization. 

207
00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,700
Where the model is almost like 
this would be sort of personal. 

208
00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:15,500
To me. 
It's like you're an Irish guy 

209
00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:18,000
from northern, Massachusetts. 
Irish guys are more than 

210
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,800
Massachusetts. 
Tend to vote Democrat. 

211
00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,100
Not because there's anything 
special about the Democrats 

212
00:10:22,100 --> 00:10:24,700
helping them, but just because 
that's what people like us do in

213
00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:27,000
the same way that like you root 
for the Patriots. 

214
00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,600
If you're in from the Boston 
area, right? 

215
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,000
And then a small percentage of 
those people will then post hoc 

216
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,400
rationalization agree with the 
beliefs of their party. 

217
00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,400
So I think when you look at what
people believe about politics, 

218
00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,900
you can't really get too excited
by that. 

219
00:10:39,900 --> 00:10:44,100
It's not the purpose of as Robin
Hanson would say, the Piece of 

220
00:10:44,100 --> 00:10:47,600
politics is not policy. 
Politics is not about policy. 

221
00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,200
People's political beliefs are 
not about describing how they 

222
00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,100
think the world really works or 
should work. 

223
00:10:53,100 --> 00:10:55,400
It's rather we use our political
beliefs in the same way that we 

224
00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:57,800
use these t-shirts. 
It's a way of showing certain 

225
00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,500
people that I'm on their side 
and in part of their Coalition, 

226
00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,500
so, yeah, you know, the fact 
that there's an inconsistency in

227
00:11:03,500 --> 00:11:06,600
most people's beliefs is not 
surprising because they're not 

228
00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,700
using those beliefs to form a 
rational theory about the world.

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They're using them for another 
social purpose, but you're 

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right, there is there is a huge 
tension there in that the 

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reasons that people give on 
against monopolies against it 

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socially mandatory Monopoly. 
Why would it be bad? 

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If Walmart were the only 
retailer and you were be forced 

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to shop at Walmart? 
If there were no permission to 

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have competition, they're going 
to give you some account for 

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that. 
And if you ask them the same 

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question, well, why doesn't your
anti-monopoly argument apply to 

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government there? 
It's they're going to give you 

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their it's not clear how they 
overcome that. 

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The main thing that they're 
going to say, of course, is 

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well, we Have to have a monopoly
on violence. 

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Violence is different 
governments? 

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Enforce the rules with violence.
And if we had competition, what 

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that would mean is that we have 
warring factions on the street 

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constantly fighting place for 
say and police force B would be 

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shooting each other to try to 
maintain dominance. 

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And so, you know, is that true. 
Well again, I think you would 

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look at that book, Anarchy and 
bounds by a release and and Mike

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humors book, the problem of 
political authority to give you 

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an account of why, this view of 
Anarchy is probably not right 

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that and Our kids on would not 
mean just constant violence on 

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the streets between warring 
factions and gangs a lot of 

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criticism of the free market. 
You'll hear things like, well, 

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there's corruption and there's 
greed and people don't have a 

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lot of information, so they 
often get manipulated. 

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The problem with virtually all 
of these criticisms is they 

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apply tenfold to government 
intervention because you can't 

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opt out of it and they don't 
face competitors to which you 

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can go to. 
If you're not satisfied with the

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product or service. 
Do you see that? 

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There's Any unique criticism of 
the free market. 

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That doesn't also apply to 
Socialism or the state know, 

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what would that be? 
And I mean the the corruption 

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thing definitely. 
I mean if You have to go to 11 

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bureaucrats, to start a 
business, or get your permit or 

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license requirement. 
That's eleven bureaucrats, who 

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can force you to pay bribes to 
do it. 

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And that's one of the biggest 
problems in many poor countries.

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You know, when I go, when I'm 
being to Kenya, people tell me 

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in the slums that they have a 
saying that it's not safe to 

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carry cash around here, because 
there are too many policemen and

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the policemen. 
They see. 

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Oh, you got a store here, would 
be sad. 

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If something happened to that. 
I you Of a permit, right? 

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So just pay up. 
So the fewer restrictions and 

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00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,000
regulations the fewer 
opportunities for for 

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corruption. 
Well, is there anything unique 

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00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:44,700
you can say about the problems 
of a free markets that doesn't 

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00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:47,800
apply to it? 
They would have to be more. 

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00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:52,000
I think psychological. 
It would have to be something 

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00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:56,700
about Are we overwhelmed with 
Choice? 

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00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,200
Perhaps? 
We don't want as much Freedom as

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00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,700
we have in a more open economy, 
perhaps it's better if someone 

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tells us what to do and I think 
there are some intellectuals who

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00:14:09,900 --> 00:14:12,600
are trying to make make that 
argument. 

286
00:14:13,300 --> 00:14:16,600
Well, we have Cass sunstein who 
wrote the book not judge who 

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00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,100
says yeah, unfortunately people 
have too much choice and it's 

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00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:23,300
the role of the state to coerce 
them into doing otherwise, so, 

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00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,600
unfortunately, That is one. 
But for the same reason, I 

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00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,700
oppose the state forcibly 
stopping me. 

291
00:14:28,700 --> 00:14:31,800
I also oppose Walmart from 
stopping me and Amazon. 

292
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:33,500
So I just hold them to the same 
standard. 

293
00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:35,000
I told anyone else. 
Yeah. 

294
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,400
Choice is bad, but it doesn't 
give me the right to go around 

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00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,600
violently. 
Dominating Johan, Norberg. 

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00:14:40,700 --> 00:14:43,500
I'm going to need to see a copy 
of the book before I allow it to

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00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:46,600
be published because you have 
too many choices with what you 

298
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,900
want to write about. 
So that it's always the other 

299
00:14:49,900 --> 00:14:51,400
guys choices. 
That's a problem. 

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00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,700
Right? 
It's never your own have to be 

301
00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:55,600
restricted. 
Stood, of course.