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Welcome to Keith's night. 
Don't tread on anyone today. 

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I'm honored to be speaking with 
a Waco Survivor David Thibodeau.

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You can check out his book Waco,
a survivor's story. 

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They just made a show about his 
book and another book by the FBI

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negotiator at the compound 
during The Siege David. 

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Thanks so much for your time. 
Sure. 

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You let me start off by saying 
by one of the FBI negotiators. 

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The other. 
Side is on because there was 

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twenty three different FBI 
negotiators during The Siege. 

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And they try to say in 
interviews, try to say that's 

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because, you know, 24 hours. 
We always wanted an agent 

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available. 
Well, the truth is whenever they

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had an FBI negotiator that was 
working well with David koresh 

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and or Steve Schneider and there
was a Harmony going. 

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They would take him off and put 
someone else on and sometimes it

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would be someone who was an 
atheist that it was it varied to

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their degree of Personality that
the particular FBI negotiator 

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that they would put on that was 
working with David, but it's 

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funny Gary Lesnar. 
He was the guy that was early on

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and was saying, you know, we 
shouldn't we shouldn't bring 

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David koresh's Vision to come to
pass. 

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We should maybe relieve the 
pressure put take pressure off 

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the situation instead of the 
Tactical commanders, putting 

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pressure on the people inside 
there, which actually, you know,

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in retrospect for me because 
obviously for years. 

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I didn't like anyone associated.
FBI. 

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But at least Gary had, I mean, I
thought that was he had the 

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proper way of looking at it. 
If they would people were coming

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out, kids were coming out at the
first week or so, and some of 

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the older people were coming 
out. 

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If they had had the foresight to
maybe listen to Gary and 

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continue to have that the 
harmony going between the two 

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parties. 
It may have ended very 

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differently. 
Now during the negotiations, 

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there was one episode where 
David koresh made a deal. 

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Hey put this video out and then 
we'll come out and David did go 

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back on that deal. 
Do you feel your David was 

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morally justified in doing so 
well. 

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It wasn't a video is a 60-minute
audio tape that he had made 

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revolving around the Seven 
Seals, but it wasn't really that

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detail. 
Personally. 

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I'd had studies. 
David that were far clearer than

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the 60 Minute tape. 
I mean, I pretty much understand

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his message where he was coming 
from and where he was going, and

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it made sense to me as a 
reasonable person. 

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The tape didn't so much. 
I, I wasn't too pleased with 

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tape or whatever. 
It's what it is. 

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He still actually did make a 
deal with them concerning that 

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60-minute audio. 
They did say originally that 

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they would play it nationally 
and they ended up only playing 

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it on a Christian radio station.
So, is that why he Come on, I 

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don't really know. 
I don't know what David's 

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reasoning was. 
He just said that he was told to

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not come out, but he's, we 
weren't going to come out yet 

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that something else had to be 
done first. 

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I don't even think he was sure 
what that was. 

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I don't think until later when 
James Tabor and fill Arnold 

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tools and theologians that had 
been monitoring the situation 

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through running Bowman's talk, 
show that we were listening to 

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on the inside as well when they 
said, you know, David actually 

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does. 
Of some kind of scriptural 

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reference in and relevance here 
and we would be interested in 

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his message. 
And looking at it, when Scholars

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actually said, that David took 
that very seriously because 

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before it was like the scholars 
didn't want anything to do with 

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what he had to say, or he never 
found the right scholar to talk 

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to. 
I think he would talk to people 

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that were running seminary 
schools and stuff, and they were

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you're very mad at him because a
lot of their students would 

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leave their seminary schools. 
Come and study with David. 

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That happened over and over and 
over again, but did you have 

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another question? 
Yeah, you look like. 

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Oh sure. 
Yeah, you know, I always ask 

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people what they think. 
The original justification was 

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for the February 28th raid. 
And I've actually never gotten 

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people to get the correct 
answer. 

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Now. 
I'm curious, what was their 

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justification for the first rate
on February, 28th. 

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And what do you think? 
The real reason was interesting?

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There's justification. 
Well, what they said that they 

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would Chris had fully automatic 
weapons. 

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I think, you know, he was taking
upper and lower receivers 

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putting them together. 
And making semi-automatics in 

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the fully automatics, of course,
the original justification. 

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Or there was a lot of people 
overseas that we're getting 

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upset with Dave because their 
families were leaving them and 

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coming to study and stay with 
David. 

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So there was a lot of but that 
that's not a legal reason, 

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obviously the legal reason, you 
know, David and especially I 

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think Paul fatter they had a, 
there were licensed firearm 

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dealers. 
They went to gun shows. 

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They bought and sold legally. 
We had yellow sheets on all the 

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Firearms. 
One of the interesting. 

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Things a few recently some of 
the ATF reports. 

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One of the report says that they
would crush was talking to one 

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of the undercover agents. 
And he said, look, I'm getting 

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upper receivers from one 
manufacturer lower receivers 

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from lower receivers from 
another manufacturer on putting 

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together and selling them. 
He goes, That's not illegal. 

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That's what he told. 
One of the ATF undercover guys. 

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And apparently the undercover 
guy said it was legal, but David

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koresh didn't realize that it 
was illegal, but it was and then

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he cites, of course, the the 
case law for that. 

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So the bottom line is, he would 
have had To pay a special tax on

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those upper and lower receivers,
I believe. 

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So basically they had a reason 
for an investigation but David 

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invited them to check out any of
the firearms that they wanted to

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check out through Henry McMahon,
who was the Firearms dealer? 

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Is it? 
Come on and I'll show you the 

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yellow sheets. 
They chose not to. 

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They didn't want to go about it 
that way. 

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David crash was the only person 
on that search and arrest 

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warrant. 
So let's see. 

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There's 130 people in the 
building and it's only David 

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koresh on the search and arrest 
warrants. 

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So they Really could have gotten
him, he dropped by the house. 

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They said he they said that 
publicly that he never went to 

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town or anything. 
Well again their reports prove 

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them to be Liars because in 
their own report few days before

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the raid David koresh and to of 
the undercover agents across the

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street, went to a firing range 
about a mile away from Mount 

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Carmel and they fired. 
They fired AR-15s together. 

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So let's think about that for a 
second. 

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One of the one of the undercover
guys for the ATF takes an AR-15 

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and shoots at a Target and then 
hands that firearm to David 

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koresh to shoot it the same 
Target and that just blows my 

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mind when I read that report. 
So they were at a firing range 

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with David. 
They could easily have gotten a 

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men. 
That's not how they wanted to do

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what they wanted a big raid and 
they wanted the big Ray, because

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what happened, Randy, Weaver and
Ruby Ridge, six months before. 

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And that is of course a federal 
Marshal shot Sammy Weaver in the

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back. 
Weaver was killed by an FBI 

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sniper. 
I mean, it was a big screw-up 

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and I know that the ATF there 
were worried about their budget 

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coming up in Congress, that they
were going to lose money and 

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maybe, you know, their budget 
meeting, their big budget 

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meeting was coming up and they 
needed, they wanted more money. 

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So they figured if they had this
big. 

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Here's our here's a group of 
religious guys, religious people

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who study and live by the Bible 
living, in the middle of 

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nowhere, Texas. 
So they go in the big attack 

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like this. 
There's not a chance. 

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Of civilians on the people 
inside the building being hurt. 

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They're easy to demonize because
they're a religious group, who 

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has firearms. 
And David koresh has a lot of 

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kids with different women. 
So obviously very easy to 

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demonize. 
There's one of my favorite 

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quotes throughout history of 
Senator Henry, Clay. 

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And the 1830s said, the device 
is of power and its minions are 

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the same in all countries. 
In an all ages. 

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It marks its victim and 
denounces it exciting, the 

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public hatred, so I can 
conceive. 

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It's on the pieces and 
encroachments. 

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So I obviously committed that 
little that little gem to 

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memory. 
So I thought is just so perfect,

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but it's exactly, that's exactly
it. 

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You know, if the rate of God, 
well, for them and they want to 

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showed a bunch of kids coming 
out of a building, and they were

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actually they rehearsed what to 
do. 

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The media consultant for the ATF
was saying. 

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Now, when you come out, make 
sure your backs are to the 

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camera. 
So everyone can see ATF and make

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sure your tender with the 
children, when you're bring 

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them, bringing them out. 
And when you bring out the 

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Firearms, hold them over your 
head to make sure that everyone 

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can see, you know, and so they 
literally they rehearsed this, 

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they rehearsed what they were 
going to do. 

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Unfortunately. 
The first thing they did was 

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when they came in, they shot the
dogs. 

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We had five Alaskan Malamutes or
penned up in an area. 

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Not have heard the agents. 
They were behind a fence and 

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there was a team of ATF people 
that went right over there to 

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shoot the dogs first and the 
trials in San Antonio. 

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One of the ATF agents indicated 
that the first shots were shot 

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at the dogs and that when the 
other agents heard the shots 

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from the team shooting the dogs.
They thought it was the people 

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inside them. 
They started shooting in the 

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front door, David koresh of the 
front door in his hand saying, 

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hold on. 
There's women and children here.

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Let's talk about this and boom. 
All these shots came out of and 

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he fell back from the velocity 
of the bullets. 

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Coming through that door. 
And then everyone heard Perry 

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Jones a seventy-year-old on our 
man screaming going down from a 

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bullet wound, from a bullet, a 
gunshot in his, in his stomach 

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from the outside forces and 
people that were with David at 

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the front door. 
I was not, but everyone tells 

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me. 
That's when people started to 

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shoot back. 
So one more thing to about that,

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incidentally the helicopters 
they had helicopters on the 

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scene and those helicopters are 
shooting in the building to its 

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shot Peter Jet on a tower shot. 
Winston Blake who was eating a 

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piece of French toast on his 
bunk bed went right through his 

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window and into his head. 
I actually saw his body and I 

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saw this trajectory of the 
bullet that went through a water

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tank that was in front of the 
window. 

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So I can see that the that 
bullet was shot from the air. 

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And I saw that personally, so, 
Those helicopters came in 

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firing. 
Now. 

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It is illegal to use helicopters
to get civilians in the United 

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States of America. 
Unless, under the Posse 

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Comitatus Act. 
Unless you can prove, there's a 

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drug Nexus of some kind. 
So, they said that the people 

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inside Mount Carmel, had a 
methamphetamine manufacturing 

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plant, which was a blatant 
total. 

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I we didn't we didn't even drink
we drank once every six months 

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and it was three beers maximum. 
So, haha. 

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That's what you do. 
When the when the Davidians have

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a party. 
That's it is three bears maximum

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eat. 
So it's like you're absolutely 

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were no drugs at Mount Carmel. 
I made you this, you know, 

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they're undercover guys. 
Robert Rodriguez came to came to

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know that the people pretty 
well. 

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Robert actually told his 
superiors. 

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Look, I've seen no signs of 
illegal activity. 

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We need to stop this raid from 
going forward and they chose to 

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anyway, that's what I love about
the government. 

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They don't even listen to their 
own people, the people they pay 

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and higher to go in and get the 
The damn information they don't 

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even listen to them. 
How as an agency to do. 

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You not listen to your people on
the ground when you have that 

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many lives at stake. 
How do you how serum these 

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people in okayed this rate? 
How do you okay, an attack on 

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women and children sitting in 
their beds and you shoot at them

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for 45 minutes? 
What kind of people are you 

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really? 
It makes me angry. 

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It's just ridiculous. 
It goes on and on and on with 

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these people and then they lie 
about it, they say, A all the 

229
00:11:50,708 --> 00:11:52,800
Davidians fired first, it was an
ambush. 

230
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,400
It wasn't an ambush. 
They know damn. 

231
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,800
Well, it wasn't an ambush and 
frankly after 25 years. 

232
00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,500
I'm sick of having to talk about
the same crap and have no result

233
00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:04,000
whatsoever. 
You know, it took, I took a six 

234
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,700
part series being made for 
people to finally turn around 

235
00:12:06,700 --> 00:12:08,800
and say, hey, maybe something 
else happened on Mount Carmel. 

236
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,700
And I'm not aware of, I've been 
talking about this stuff in 25 

237
00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:13,900
years, man. 
And you know, what all these 

238
00:12:13,900 --> 00:12:17,600
ATF, guys and FBI, guys, they 
get their pensions, they get to 

239
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:20,900
live their nice lives and get 
the vacation, anytime they On, 

240
00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:23,500
they're all retired. 
Now, instead of getting 

241
00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:25,900
punished. 
They got friggin raises and 

242
00:12:25,900 --> 00:12:28,700
promotions, you know what the 
people that survived here. 

243
00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:33,600
Got seven years in jail, most of
them on a weapons violation, the

244
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,400
jury throughout no less. 
I'm renting a little today. 

245
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:38,100
This is actually a fun day. 
I'm glad we did this in the 

246
00:12:38,108 --> 00:12:40,900
morning because for some reason,
I feel particularly good about 

247
00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:42,400
this. 
But to tell you the truth, I 

248
00:12:42,408 --> 00:12:44,100
don't seriously man. 
I mean, they got, you know, 

249
00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:47,500
seven years on weapons violation
that the jury throughout the 

250
00:12:47,500 --> 00:12:50,100
judge, came back in and said, 
oh, I'm gonna add the weapons. 

251
00:12:50,500 --> 00:12:53,300
Even back in and give these guys
40 years. 

252
00:12:54,500 --> 00:12:57,600
Finally, finally. 
It went to the Supreme Court. 

253
00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,000
It took seven years to get to 
the Supreme Court and the 

254
00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,000
Supreme Court unanimous decision
said it's one of the worst 

255
00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,000
rulings they've ever seen in all
their days. 

256
00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:07,800
That's Judge Walter Smith. 
I'll say the name. 

257
00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,200
Again, judge Walter Smith is 
guilty of one of the worst 

258
00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:13,600
rulings of all time. 
And it was in the Davidian case 

259
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,000
and he did it to protect the 
government. 

260
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,400
They've been protecting 
themselves from day one. 

261
00:13:18,500 --> 00:13:21,700
They shot into the building on 
the last And they will deny that

262
00:13:21,700 --> 00:13:24,500
to their dying day, but I got to
tell you all these agents out 

263
00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:26,000
there, if there's an ancient 
listen to this. 

264
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:27,600
Why don't you come to Mount 
Carmel? 

265
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,100
And talk to me and talk to some 
of the people out here and 

266
00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:32,600
apologize for what you did? 
Why don't you tell us? 

267
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,200
What really happened at the back
of the building? 

268
00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:36,500
If you're one of those forces if
you're one of the guys that 

269
00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:38,000
know, why don't you come 
forward? 

270
00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,100
You killed a bunch of kids. 
You guys, gassed a bunch of 

271
00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:44,500
women and children to death, 
that is gonna bother you. 

272
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:46,900
So if you guys, you know, if you
want, do the right thing and 

273
00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:49,100
come forward at this point in 
history and be on the right side

274
00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:51,100
of History, I highly. 
Recommend you do. 

275
00:13:51,100 --> 00:13:53,600
So because you know what really 
sucks is going to be being on 

276
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,500
your deathbed and thinking about
CS gassing a bunch of kids and 

277
00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:00,400
realizing what you really did. 
Why don't you have the once you 

278
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:04,100
have the nuts to stand up now 
and be a man and tell people 

279
00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:06,800
what you really did at Mount 
Carmel, because frankly, I'm 

280
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,100
sick of it dude. 
I'm sick of 25 years of everyone

281
00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:13,800
thinking that the people inside 
set that fire and that they shot

282
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,800
each other at the final stages. 
You know, what? 

283
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,600
Maybe some people worship, maybe
some people were trapped and 

284
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,300
they shot themselves to escape a
fire out. 

285
00:14:20,500 --> 00:14:23,200
Blame, the only reason I came 
out of the building is because I

286
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,200
didn't want to burn to death. 
I thought I figured the force is

287
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,000
shooting me would be a much 
better thing. 

288
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,800
But I'm telling you, I am pretty
sure there was fully automatic 

289
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,400
weapon, fire the back of that 
building, that was coming from 

290
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,200
the outside forces into the 
building. 

291
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,200
And I also on that infrared. 
I've noticed two explosions at 

292
00:14:39,208 --> 00:14:41,700
the back of the building and the
gym area were one of the fire 

293
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:44,600
begins with just the one of the 
Three Fires. 

294
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,000
Begin at the back of that 
building. 

295
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,300
Now, there were three we found 
for protecting devices and the 

296
00:14:50,500 --> 00:14:55,500
evidence Locker in Austin Texas,
the investigator Mike McNulty 

297
00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:58,200
who was doing the Rules of 
Engagement, which is an 

298
00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,600
excellent documentary. 
I highly recommended, it was 

299
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,100
nominated for an Oscar. 
It features the flare tape at 

300
00:15:04,100 --> 00:15:06,900
the end and you can see the 
fully automatic weapons fire, 

301
00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:09,700
which the government says, is 
sunlight reflection. 

302
00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:12,300
And to this day, they swear by 
it sunlight reflection. 

303
00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:14,500
When I see it. 
I see something very, very 

304
00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:16,200
different. 
It's much more Sinister. 

305
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:18,700
So okay, you know, that's my 
rant. 

306
00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:20,200
I will go back to the questions.
I got. 

307
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,000
We Basically, we just cover the 
entire thing in that one. 

308
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,400
Little question of yours. 
And again, I'm sorry, I slept 

309
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,600
really well last night. 
I feel like I'm on fire this 

310
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,100
morning. 
I'm glad we didn't do this last 

311
00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:32,800
night. 
No problem at all. 

312
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:36,300
So, I want to be clear, so they 
could. 

313
00:15:36,300 --> 00:15:39,300
So David was the only name on 
the arrest warrant, right? 

314
00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:42,700
Whatever arrested him while he 
was jogging, or while he was at 

315
00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:45,600
a bar named Chelsea's. 
You went through that on Mance 

316
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,000
rayder show. 
I don't want you have to go 

317
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,300
through that again. 
What I know about or how about 

318
00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:51,300
what he shooting guns with. 
The agents. 

319
00:15:51,700 --> 00:15:54,800
Yeah, pretty good story. 
That's a pretty good time to 

320
00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,200
rest him right there. 
Three guys alone them and I'm 

321
00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:01,500
firing range, shooting guns. 
They Canada, my gun, my friend, 

322
00:16:01,500 --> 00:16:03,000
not only did they not arrested 
him. 

323
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,300
Think about that. 
The ATF handed, the notorious 

324
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,100
the, the Criminal Mind that 
Mastermind even Crush, they 

325
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:12,200
handed him a firearm and shot 
with him. 

326
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,000
Think about that. 
This is guys are scared of. 

327
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,900
This is guys are investigating 
who has their enemy a gun. 

328
00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:22,300
I just it blows my mind when I 
sit down. 

329
00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:25,600
I think about that. 
So I just want to be clear 

330
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,600
according to a book. 
No more Waco's by David Capel 

331
00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,200
and Paul Blackman. 
They said David koresh. 

332
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,700
Invited the ATF agents into the 
compound. 

333
00:16:35,700 --> 00:16:40,100
Is that what happened? 
Okay, here's what hit look. 

334
00:16:40,700 --> 00:16:43,700
Kind of. 
Yes, actually, yes, because the 

335
00:16:43,700 --> 00:16:45,400
undercover agents came over 
every day. 

336
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,900
Robert Rodriguez came over every
day for about a month. 

337
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,300
Yeah, he got to know the people 
he said and done studies with 

338
00:16:51,300 --> 00:16:53,400
David. 
He often sat in the foyer 

339
00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:58,500
Rodriguez actually brought over 
a gun that he said he bought at 

340
00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:02,300
a okay. 
He said he bought it at a what 

341
00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:05,400
was it, a gun show and the David
put the gun in part. 

342
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,500
Took it apart and less than like
30 seconds right in front of 

343
00:17:08,700 --> 00:17:10,000
Great. 
I saw the look on his face. 

344
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,400
Was Ultimate surprise, David 
took this kind of party. 

345
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,400
I was telling her that he goes. 
Look at that there, Robert the, 

346
00:17:15,700 --> 00:17:18,099
the trigger here. 
I don't know. 

347
00:17:18,108 --> 00:17:19,500
I don't know. 
I don't know how guns. 

348
00:17:19,900 --> 00:17:23,099
Honestly, the inner workings of 
firearms, but he said, the 

349
00:17:23,099 --> 00:17:28,400
trigger here's been filed down. 
So that made a full auto. 

350
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,600
He was this an illegal firearm, 
Robert. 

351
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,200
And I wish you wouldn't bring 
that over to my house because 

352
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,700
that's illegal Firearms. 
So I hope you. 

353
00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:37,900
You should have known what you 
were getting here and I would 

354
00:17:37,900 --> 00:17:39,800
take that back. 
Because that's illegal motion of

355
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,100
the proper yellow sheet and he 
actually was schooling. 

356
00:17:42,100 --> 00:17:44,400
The ATF guy. 
So he was well aware of what was

357
00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,100
going on there and that Robert 
was trying to bait him 

358
00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:50,100
basically, but yes, the answer 
is yes, they were invited in and

359
00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:52,700
they did they were in the they 
came into Mount Carmel. 

360
00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:54,800
Several times. 
I can't even count the amount of

361
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:56,600
times. 
They weren't at Mount Carmel. 

362
00:17:57,500 --> 00:18:03,800
So in episode 3 of the show that
is based on your book, 20 

363
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,600
minutes in, it shows that 
there's a blockade of the 

364
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,800
compound after the February. 
The eighth grade and they 

365
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,300
actually shoot and kill one of 
the husband's trying to come in 

366
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:15,100
to see his wife. 
Did that happen? 

367
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,300
Yes, it did. 
That was Michael Schroeder. 

368
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:22,300
Michael Schroeder was working at
a another business that was 

369
00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:24,300
owned by David called the Mag 
Bag. 

370
00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:28,900
It was, you know, I was 
basically just a, it was a, an 

371
00:18:28,900 --> 00:18:31,500
auto kind of auto repair place. 
It was a garage. 

372
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,700
That's what I'm trying to say. 
And he was working there, of 

373
00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:37,600
course, you know, his wife, and 
his kids were in in Mount 

374
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:39,800
Carmel. 
So, which was trying to sneak 

375
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,000
back in that evening? 
And I guess there was, he was 

376
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:44,800
with two other people who are 
captured. 

377
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,700
But for some reason, when 
Michael was a firefight or at 

378
00:18:47,708 --> 00:18:52,900
least they shot him, but the 
bottom line is, he was his cap 

379
00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:55,000
that he had a cap on the cap 
disappeared. 

380
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,600
It wasn't into evidence and he 
was shot at close range. 

381
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:04,100
He was shot execution-style in 
the back of the head and the 

382
00:19:04,100 --> 00:19:07,800
autopsy report showed that there
was no gunpowder residue. 

383
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,900
So it couldn't have been. 
The short range is what they 

384
00:19:09,900 --> 00:19:11,900
tried to say, but his cap was 
missing. 

385
00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:14,000
I'm looking for this one. 
There's always something. 

386
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:19,700
Whenever all these experts, I 
swear to all these phds that 

387
00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:21,900
they all out. 
I call it piled higher and 

388
00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:25,200
deeper as what PhD stands for as
far as I'm concerned. 

389
00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:29,400
Because all these experts, they 
just have a much better way of 

390
00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:32,100
expressing. 
How a certain thing could not 

391
00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:34,500
have taken place. 
Yeah, if you're going to take 

392
00:19:34,500 --> 00:19:37,200
the guys cap off, of course, 
there's not going to be gun 

393
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,600
residue, you dumbass. 
Gasps sorry dude. 

394
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,900
But again, it's 25 years of this
crap, the cover up the that's 

395
00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:46,100
been going on here. 
They take the guys cap on when 

396
00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:47,800
they say. 
Oh, there's no gun residue. 

397
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,500
So therefore the ATF could have 
shot him at close range. 

398
00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:53,200
They did shoot him at close 
range and I am so sick of these 

399
00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:55,500
people covering their ass. 
That's all it is. 

400
00:19:55,500 --> 00:19:58,600
Is cover your ass cover, your 
ass, cover your ass, cover your 

401
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,900
ass. 
You know, these people are 

402
00:20:00,900 --> 00:20:07,000
commit, they shot 45 minutes, a 
bunch of women and children on 

403
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,100
the second story of the and 
that's I can't believe one of 

404
00:20:10,108 --> 00:20:14,000
the kids wasn't killed. 
That's a miracle in itself. 

405
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,900
Now, according to what this is, 
another tactic of smearing other

406
00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:21,800
people. 
There was like, the babies in 

407
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,500
incubators lie in the Gulf War. 
There was the babies on bayonets

408
00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:29,600
in World War one and Janet Reno 
has the baby's being beaten, 

409
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,400
which according to her 
testimony. 

410
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,300
She later. 
Redacted, according to the New 

411
00:20:34,300 --> 00:20:40,500
York Times was that the ultimate
justification Reno having those 

412
00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:44,200
words being able to go in on 
April 19th. 

413
00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:48,700
No, I mean, is it a 
justification? 

414
00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:50,400
Maybe for them? 
Oh, yeah. 

415
00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:53,000
Yeah, that's all the head. 
Well, that's like George Bush, 

416
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,000
saying there's weapons of mass 
destruction weapons of mass 

417
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,300
destruction. 
So we need to go invade Iraq, 

418
00:20:59,500 --> 00:21:05,900
you know their wow, you know, 
it's funny how America was 

419
00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:09,300
supposed to be so intelligent 
and so, I don't know, you know, 

420
00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:12,600
she must be so proud of our 
freedom, how we really like 

421
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,300
going to war. 
That's what it seems like 

422
00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:19,900
because we allow people People 
lie to us and allow an amazing 

423
00:21:19,900 --> 00:21:22,900
Force to go in and just wipe out
a bunch of friggin Farmers. 

424
00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:25,600
That's basically, you know, when
we're going into war, the 

425
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,800
majority of people were killing 
us civilians at this point, 

426
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,300
especially in something like 
Iraq, we defeat their military 

427
00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:34,100
forces very quickly and then 
it's just it's just chaos man. 

428
00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:37,500
It never it never ends this you 
know, as long as that we 

429
00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:40,700
shouldn't be going to other 
places killing people, but let's

430
00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:42,100
get back. 
I'm getting sidetracked. 

431
00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:45,500
Let's get back to the point 
Janet Reno know that, Wasn't a 

432
00:21:45,508 --> 00:21:47,300
justification as far as I'm 
concerned. 

433
00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:49,800
The kids weren't being beaten. 
Some of the kids were spanked 

434
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,400
and everyone knows that a lot of
religious groups, spare the rod 

435
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,700
spoil, the child, and spanking, 
the children for thousands and 

436
00:21:57,708 --> 00:22:00,700
thousands of years. 
It's a form of punishment. 

437
00:22:00,700 --> 00:22:03,200
Personally. 
I don't spank my kid. 

438
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,500
I don't want to terrorize my 
child and some people grab me, 

439
00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:09,400
some people don't, but a 
spanking is a spanking. 

440
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,300
I do, I would say that the kids 
here were incredibly 

441
00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:16,000
well-behaved, you could take him
out to They didn't act like 

442
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,900
little jerks running all over 
the place. 

443
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:20,900
They were incredibly 
well-behaved. 

444
00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:23,900
They were good kids. 
There were happy kids. 

445
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,200
They had home schooling. 
They went to school every day 

446
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,300
here. 
They played together. 

447
00:22:29,300 --> 00:22:33,300
They share together. 
They were, I saw just wonderful 

448
00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:34,900
children here. 
So okay. 

449
00:22:34,900 --> 00:22:37,800
I didn't think nothing. 
Nothing in there was no, I 

450
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:39,500
didn't see any child abuse over 
that way. 

451
00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:43,900
Okay, and I saw the evidence of 
the way, the parents were 

452
00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:46,300
raising the children. 
And It seemed to work here. 

453
00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:52,800
So that being said, the only 
people that beat the children 

454
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,200
was the federal government and 
they didn't beat the kids. 

455
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:02,200
They gassed, the kids. 
They use CS gas, which by its 

456
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,100
own manufacturer, is a riot 
control agent. 

457
00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:08,100
If you read them in the 
manufacturer's instructions, 

458
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:11,700
that's a riot control. 
Agent to only be used Outdoors, 

459
00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:15,000
never indoors. 
Never inside a building CS gas 

460
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,300
is Powder. 
The way that it spreads is 

461
00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:20,500
through methylene chloride. 
The delivery method is 

462
00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:23,000
methylene, chloride. 
Guess what's methylene chloride 

463
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,700
is used in paint thinner. 
Methylene chloride is flammable 

464
00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:30,800
folks and that's the delivery 
method for CS gas. 

465
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,600
Now, CS gas is a powder. 
What happens when you have 

466
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,300
subatomic particles floating 
through the air together. 

467
00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:39,300
It causes that. 
It's it can cause an explosion. 

468
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,500
I'll give you an example. 
A grain silo. 

469
00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:45,000
It's the some atomic particles 
of dust in a grain sauce. 

470
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,000
Silo. 
That can cause it to if it 

471
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,100
catches fire to go up like a 
fireball, it's the same thing 

472
00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:53,800
with cs gas. 
That's why whenever CS gas is 

473
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,500
used in the building. 
There's five or six different 

474
00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:58,600
examples. 
The building catches fire folks 

475
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,400
boy again. 
It's just yeah, you know, I know

476
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:03,800
a lot of people will probably 
your audience. 

477
00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:05,900
Some of them are younger and 
probably hearing this for the 

478
00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:09,500
first time. 
I just been saying it for 25 

479
00:24:09,500 --> 00:24:11,800
years. 
It's like it's cool. 

480
00:24:12,100 --> 00:24:15,400
The Cs gas. 
Right control agent only be used

481
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,500
indoors outdoors and they used a
two-day supply of Cs gas and six

482
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:21,600
hours. 
They were frustrated because of 

483
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,000
the high winds and we would open
the window. 

484
00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:27,800
And a lot of the high winds were
blowing, a lot of Cs gas out of 

485
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:29,900
the other window in the chapel 
are where I was. 

486
00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:33,400
I can only speak for my area. 
I don't know what's going on. 

487
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,600
The other area. 
I can tell you one thing though.

488
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,800
All the women and children were 
put in a the walk-in cooler, 

489
00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:42,000
which had survived the fire in 
the 50s. 

490
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,900
They were all put in there under
wet blankets to try to. 

491
00:24:45,100 --> 00:24:47,500
It was the only place they had 
to go, the one, the tanks went 

492
00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:49,400
through the building on April 
19th. 

493
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,400
They blocked off the The Escape 
that led to the underground bus.

494
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,900
They actually collapse the wall.
On top of that, they went 

495
00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:01,200
through the, where I was the 
chapel area and I saw the Tank 

496
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,100
come through the front doors and
move the doors backwards. 

497
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,400
I Can't Describe to your 
listeners. 

498
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:09,300
What? 
It's like. 

499
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,100
To watch your front door, come 
at you and have to jump out of 

500
00:25:14,108 --> 00:25:18,100
the way because the tank has 
come through your front door and

501
00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:22,300
moved it into the living area. 
I can't really describe what 

502
00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:25,000
that's like, but I got to tell 
you, it's absolutely horrifying.

503
00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:29,200
And then they went into the 
center of the building. 

504
00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:32,400
They put a big hole in the 
center of the building of all 

505
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,700
the way back to where the 
walk-in cooler was and I have 

506
00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:38,500
pictures of this at Mount Carmel
that I show towards groups that 

507
00:25:38,500 --> 00:25:41,900
come here. 
And so they went all the way 

508
00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:46,200
back to where the where the 
women and children were in the 

509
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,400
walk-in cooler. 
They put a turn in there and 

510
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,800
they delivered on a massive 
amount of Cs gas and actually 

511
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,700
the tank driver said that he 
delivered a massive amount of Cs

512
00:25:54,700 --> 00:25:57,300
gas in the walk-in cooler. 
That's where the women and kids 

513
00:25:57,300 --> 00:25:59,900
were they literally suffocated 
the kids too. 

514
00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:04,000
So CS gas, what's the fire 
started CS gas? 

515
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,400
When it burns off, it burns into
cyanide, believe it or not. 

516
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,400
You can everyone can look this 
up for themselves. 

517
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,000
If you don't believe me CS gas 
Burns in the cyanide. 

518
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:18,600
Some of the kids had such a high
high tracings of cyanide 

519
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,200
poisoning, their bloodstreams 
that had caused their, their 

520
00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:27,500
their muscles to contract and Bo
backwards and a couple of the 

521
00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:31,300
children autopsy report showed 
that Not only, let's talk about 

522
00:26:31,300 --> 00:26:33,400
the beatings again, you know, 
who else beat the kids? 

523
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,100
The tag, when the tank hit the 
top of the structure, some of 

524
00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:41,000
these huge chunks of concrete 
fell in on them and crush them 

525
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,800
to death. 
Some of the kids died of blunt 

526
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,700
force, trauma. 
The blunt force trauma is from 

527
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:48,300
chunks of concrete, hitting 
them. 

528
00:26:49,100 --> 00:26:51,900
When the report came out the 
justice department report came 

529
00:26:51,900 --> 00:26:55,500
out, they got on there, they get
on the national news and I 

530
00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:57,900
remember watching this again on 
the Nationals and they said our 

531
00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:01,500
report will find and the Moments
of the Branch Davidian 

532
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:05,400
conflagration, the Davidians 
beat, and stabbed their children

533
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,000
to death. 
They said that we beat our kids 

534
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,900
to death. 
That's how they spun. 

535
00:27:10,900 --> 00:27:13,900
It SP when they spun it, the 
spinner. 

536
00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:17,600
The the way that they win, the 
media war is my spin. 

537
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:22,000
We don't Spin and spin is lying 
when they're spinning something 

538
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,500
they're lying to you. 
So they will get you to agree to

539
00:27:26,500 --> 00:27:28,100
what they're doing. 
Again. 

540
00:27:28,500 --> 00:27:30,700
It's that. 
It's that the Sir Henry Clay 

541
00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:34,600
quote that the denounces it B 
victims, exciting, the public 

542
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,300
hatred so they can conceal their
own abuses encroachments. 

543
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,800
So they can conceal the evil 
that they've done to the place 

544
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,400
and the people here and they 
turn it all around and make the 

545
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,300
people here look like they're 
some kind of demons. 

546
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:48,700
Frankly. 
I'm sick of it. 

547
00:27:48,700 --> 00:27:49,900
The people that died at Mount 
Carmel. 

548
00:27:49,900 --> 00:27:53,000
Was some of the best people I've
ever known and they just didn't 

549
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,300
they didn't deserve the rap that
they've had for the last 25 

550
00:27:56,300 --> 00:27:58,300
years. 
So, you know what? 

551
00:27:58,300 --> 00:27:59,600
Yep. 
I'm sick of it. 

552
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:00,700
These people. 
Get away with it. 

553
00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:04,100
Is time for them to go to jail. 
If not, if they're not gonna go 

554
00:28:04,100 --> 00:28:05,000
to jail. 
They need to live with your 

555
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,000
conscience and they need to know
what they did. 

556
00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:10,600
You killed you gassed and killed
a bunch of kids way to go 

557
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,000
Federal forces way to go you 
tough guys. 

558
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,500
You guys have claimed that 
you're there to save people. 

559
00:28:15,700 --> 00:28:17,300
You guessed a bunch of kids to 
death of. 

560
00:28:17,308 --> 00:28:19,900
You're blaming it on us. 
I'm sick of it. 

561
00:28:19,900 --> 00:28:21,800
Shame on you. 
They're okay. 

562
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,500
I'm good. 
I'm off my soapbox know. 

563
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,200
Yeah. 
Well, Bill Clinton said Reno 

564
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,400
shouldn't resign just because 
some Some religious Fanatics 

565
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,600
decided to murder themselves. 
Yeah. 

566
00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:38,800
I'm I want you to go through 
some of the propaganda used to 

567
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,500
dehumanize, the Branch Davidians
II know you got into it there 

568
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,600
but is that the extent of it? 
Oh, no, they changed the wording

569
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,600
completely, you know, there's 
was that I was watching 

570
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,200
recently. 
Oh, I just watched the movie 

571
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,600
Vice about Dick Cheney, which is
very interesting because they 

572
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,500
did the same thing with them 
global warming. 

573
00:29:00,500 --> 00:29:02,800
They call it climate change 
instead of global warming 

574
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,400
because climate change sounds 
better, you know, these are kind

575
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:08,400
of things. 
These words that are in our 

576
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,900
vernacular. 
Now used over and over by the 

577
00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:13,200
media. 
On purpose, the directly use 

578
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,900
this so they can spin things in 
our case. 

579
00:29:16,700 --> 00:29:18,900
It wasn't a tank that was going 
through the front door, but it 

580
00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:23,200
was a CV because the tanks had 
to It's taken off and it was a 

581
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:24,600
cev. 
Well, guess what? 

582
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,600
Right here at Mount Carmel. 
You guys come check out Mount 

583
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,400
Carmel someday. 
I have a picture of a tank, a 

584
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,800
Bradley Fighting Vehicle with 
the turn on it in front of the 

585
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,700
burning building. 
So there were tanks here again. 

586
00:29:35,700 --> 00:29:39,700
Just another lie. 
So the tank was the cev, instead

587
00:29:39,700 --> 00:29:41,800
of a sniper. 
They didn't have a sniper to 

588
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,500
sniper position, but he was a 
forward Observer. 

589
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,600
So they call the sniper forward 
Observer. 

590
00:29:50,500 --> 00:29:55,500
What are some of the other ones?
Of course, Firearms, your 

591
00:29:55,500 --> 00:29:57,900
weapons. 
If it suits him, if it's had 

592
00:29:57,900 --> 00:29:59,900
some on the other side of their 
firearms. 

593
00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:03,900
One of my favorites is when they
throw a flashbang grenade in a 

594
00:30:03,900 --> 00:30:04,800
flashbang. 
Grenade. 

595
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:09,400
Doesn't explode. 
Okay, it performs a rapid 

596
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,500
expansion of gases. 
That's what they call an 

597
00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:14,700
explosion. 
In other words, pyrotechnic 

598
00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:17,200
device. 
It doesn't explode, but it 

599
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,100
performs a rapid expansion of 
gases. 

600
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:21,900
That's literally how ridiculous 
it gets. 

601
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,800
Goes on and on. 
Now, in the show. 

602
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,000
They say that you married. 
David's wife. 

603
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,600
Did that happen? 
It actually didn't happen. 

604
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,800
I'm pretty on the book. 
I talk about this pretty 

605
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,000
succinctly. 
It was kind of mentioned. 

606
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,200
That we should get married to 
try to kind of keep the forces 

607
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,300
at Bay for a little while 
longer, while he was working on 

608
00:30:48,300 --> 00:30:50,700
some stuff. 
And who asked, frankly, you 

609
00:30:50,708 --> 00:30:54,600
know, Dave was very, very deep 
individual and I learned a lot 

610
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,700
of things from him. 
I learned the Seven Seals from 

611
00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:59,900
him, but that's the one thing in
my two years of knowing the guy 

612
00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:03,100
that he asked me to do that. 
I never felt right about and I 

613
00:31:03,108 --> 00:31:04,700
did it just because it was my 
group. 

614
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,300
I want to protect the group and 
I want to protect Michelle and 

615
00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:11,100
serenity. 
So yeah, we said we were married

616
00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:14,800
but we didn't have the wasn't 
actually Yeah, they call it. 

617
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,600
There wasn't a ceremony. 
Yep. 

618
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,000
There wasn't a ceremony. 
It was nothing. 

619
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,200
Like it was in the film and the 
film that made, it was this big 

620
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,800
ceremony and we had, you know, 
we had parties like that where 

621
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,500
everyone got together and dance,
but it wasn't the sir. 

622
00:31:27,500 --> 00:31:30,500
I wasn't like a wedding ceremony
or anything like that, but it's 

623
00:31:30,500 --> 00:31:34,500
just kind of how it worked out 
and was that because she was 

624
00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:36,900
underage when he was first with 
her. 

625
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:38,900
Yes. 
Okay. 

626
00:31:40,500 --> 00:31:44,500
There is a really interesting 
part in the Documentary, where 

627
00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:49,000
the lawyers actually come in and
they say, look at that door. 

628
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,100
Look at that ceiling. 
You guys have a great case, talk

629
00:31:52,100 --> 00:31:54,800
to me about what it was. 
Like when the lawyers came into 

630
00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:57,900
the compound during this 51-day 
Siege. 

631
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,300
Well, for me is actually very 
exciting to have people that, I 

632
00:32:02,300 --> 00:32:04,900
guess our representatives of the
system, even though they're your

633
00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:08,300
defense attorneys. 
They're still, we are Ward's of 

634
00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:11,900
the Court there, still people 
that are I guess, look, highly 

635
00:32:11,900 --> 00:32:15,100
upon There are testimonies, 
especially zags, Jack's 

636
00:32:15,100 --> 00:32:20,400
Zimmerman. 
Who was a he was a, he was a 

637
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:21,600
veteran. 
He was a veteran. 

638
00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:25,000
I'm not sure. 
I can't remember what brand she 

639
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,800
was in. 
But you know, these people saw 

640
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,800
the evidence is that we had been
talking about. 

641
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:31,700
They were able to cooperate that
with us. 

642
00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:34,400
That was great. 
I remember feeling feeling very 

643
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,000
hopeful that they had come in 
and I'm surprised actually that 

644
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,800
more wasn't done. 
I am at that point. 

645
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,000
I wish David would have listened
to them and said, okay, we got a

646
00:32:44,008 --> 00:32:45,800
good case. 
We should take it, take it 

647
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:50,600
there, and I'm really hard on. 
Government did did here because 

648
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,800
yes, they gasp kids and they 
blame it on us. 

649
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:54,200
They're the ones against the 
kids. 

650
00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:58,000
But you know what? 
I in doing the research for my 

651
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,400
book and being an honest, 
rational thoughtful individual, 

652
00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:03,900
I have to say David koresh made 
some mistakes. 

653
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:05,500
He made some mistakes along the 
way. 

654
00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:09,000
Absolutely. 
I think at the point that the 

655
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,800
attorneys came in. 
He should have considered going 

656
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:13,600
out more. 
I know that he wanted to wait 

657
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,200
until the Seven Seals were 
written down. 

658
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,500
I get that and that's a plan 
that came after the attorneys 

659
00:33:18,500 --> 00:33:20,800
and come in. 
In but I felt very hopeful with 

660
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,300
the attorneys testimony and 
telling us that we had a pretty 

661
00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:26,500
good case that we should go that
route. 

662
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,400
And I think I think Steve did as
well. 

663
00:33:31,300 --> 00:33:33,900
Anyway, David chose not to go 
that route. 

664
00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:37,300
I wish he would have I consider 
that a mistake on his part 

665
00:33:37,300 --> 00:33:40,300
frankly. 
Now when I watch Rules of 

666
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:45,600
Engagement, they said that the 
front door of the compound that 

667
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,600
was brought into evidence is 
still missing. 

668
00:33:49,100 --> 00:33:50,900
Is that true? 
Yeah. 

669
00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:53,100
Oh, yeah, there's two double 
doors. 

670
00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:56,200
And there were metal doors. 
The one with the most bullet 

671
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,400
wounds coming from the outside 
in. 

672
00:33:58,500 --> 00:34:01,400
And you could see clearly that 
there was that all those bullets

673
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,400
were coming from the outside. 
And that's one of the things 

674
00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:08,100
dick deguerin testified to I 
think at the Congressional 

675
00:34:08,100 --> 00:34:09,800
hearings. 
They were asked for those doors 

676
00:34:10,100 --> 00:34:11,600
or knows. 
I'm sorry, excuse me. 

677
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,500
No. 
Yawning early morning on the two

678
00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:17,300
doors. 
One of them was entered into 

679
00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:19,900
evidence and the other one was 
Isn't and when they were, they 

680
00:34:19,900 --> 00:34:21,600
were asked where that second 
door, was. 

681
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:23,300
That was the door that all the 
bullet holes in it. 

682
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,199
The FBI said, oh, that must have
disintegrated in the fire, a 

683
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:29,600
metal door. 
Its twin door. 

684
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,199
Was there entered into evidence?
The other door wasn't so it it 

685
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:34,400
didn't disintegrate. 
The fire. 

686
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,100
It was hidden. 
It was, you know, I always think

687
00:34:38,100 --> 00:34:40,500
of that scene. 
I always think about her. 

688
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:44,900
Sorry, guys. 
Can you still hear me? 

689
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:47,000
Yes, I can. 
Sorry. 

690
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,699
I had a call coming. 
I was thinking Scene in Raiders 

691
00:34:49,699 --> 00:34:51,900
of the Lost Ark that last scene 
where they're taking the Ark of 

692
00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:54,900
the Covenant, put it in some big
Warehouse in the middle of 

693
00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:58,600
nowhere, you know, some giant 
huge government Warehouse. 

694
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,700
That's probably not the case, 
but that's just the kind of a 

695
00:35:00,707 --> 00:35:03,600
funny little visual. 
So yeah, you know, I mean, I'd 

696
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,800
love to go to that warehouse 
where all this stuff is hidden. 

697
00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:09,700
But yeah, definitely I think 
they yeah, they hit it that that

698
00:35:09,700 --> 00:35:12,100
door didn't disintegrate in a 
fire is ridiculous. 

699
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:15,400
Yeah, because as the guy was 
saying in Rules of Engagement, 

700
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,500
if that's where the shooting 
started. 

701
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,000
And there's He's only shooting 
going in. 

702
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,400
Well, then that's pretty much 
against their case, and it made 

703
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,700
it seem like, that's what the 
lawyers were saying in the show.

704
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,800
Yes. 
Now, one thing that I learned in

705
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,800
this is that 23 people actually 
left the compound during The 

706
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,900
Siege. 
Another words far from being 

707
00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:41,900
held down against their will. 
There were 23 people who left 

708
00:35:41,900 --> 00:35:46,300
now, if I'm looking at this as 
an observer, I say, okay, right.

709
00:35:46,300 --> 00:35:48,200
Or wrong ATF. 
It doesn't matter. 

710
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,300
Just come out. 
And this could have ended 

711
00:35:50,300 --> 00:35:53,200
peacefully, how do you respond 
to people who say that? 

712
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,500
Jamie just come out or yes. 
Some people did come out during 

713
00:35:57,500 --> 00:35:59,900
the Seas. 
Like you said Cromwell that is 

714
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,100
what other people people would 
be coming out and then they 

715
00:36:04,100 --> 00:36:06,300
would put the pressure on. 
Okay now we got some, let's get 

716
00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:08,600
them all. 
Bring them all out an hour or 

717
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,500
there's going to be a 
consequence and our attitude was

718
00:36:11,500 --> 00:36:15,500
like, listen people are coming 
out, negotiating's are going 

719
00:36:15,500 --> 00:36:17,800
harmoniously. 
Why are you putting the pressure

720
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,600
for everyone to come on? 
Not everyone's going to come out

721
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,000
now and you're scaring us and 
then they'll be like a will show

722
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,800
you and the tanks. 
One of the property and run over

723
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,900
one of the vehicles or they 
would tip over the 500 gallon 

724
00:36:30,900 --> 00:36:35,000
gas tanks that we had on tripods
near the building. 

725
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,100
They would tip those override 
sit there and watched the fuel 

726
00:36:38,100 --> 00:36:40,300
pour out onto the ground. 
Next to the building. 

727
00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:43,100
I saw that happen. 
So it's just amazing. 

728
00:36:43,100 --> 00:36:46,700
I mean, this is this their 
forces that every time, things 

729
00:36:46,700 --> 00:36:49,500
will go harmoniously, they would
put pressure on and that would 

730
00:36:49,500 --> 00:36:51,700
cause a mistrust and people 
would back off. 

731
00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:53,300
People didn't want to go out to 
that. 

732
00:36:54,100 --> 00:36:55,600
Nobody. 
Want to go out that that kind of

733
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,500
aggression, you know, the agents
would sit on the tanks and moon 

734
00:36:58,500 --> 00:37:00,900
us and they would give us the 
finger and moon us. 

735
00:37:00,900 --> 00:37:05,400
And these are the kind of forces
that are asking us to come out. 

736
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:09,200
No. 
It's just, it's ridiculous. 

737
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,300
And it's something that people 
understand every day during the 

738
00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:16,500
scenes. 
There was a There was a press 

739
00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:20,200
conference and during the press 
conference has, sorry. 

740
00:37:20,300 --> 00:37:23,800
I need to drink water during the
press conference has the 

741
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,500
government would be like, oh, 
the cult this, the cult that 

742
00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:29,900
David koresh is just Bible 
Babble and God's talking, all 

743
00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:33,900
they did was demonize the people
inside instead of saying, oh, we

744
00:37:33,900 --> 00:37:37,400
had a really, you know, really 
good conversation with David and

745
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,400
treating him as a person. 
Treating the people, there's 

746
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,300
people, they kept calling us, 
this called, this cult is 

747
00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:44,100
called, that's called, that's 
called, that's called over and 

748
00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:46,900
over, and over. 
So it's like they're just 

749
00:37:46,900 --> 00:37:48,600
painting the picture for the 
American public. 

750
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,300
They want to paint while trying 
to tell us that they have our 

751
00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:55,500
best interests. 
Can you imagine that their town,

752
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,300
you imagine someone telling you 
that they really want to help 

753
00:37:58,300 --> 00:38:00,700
you and they want to make sure 
all you guys get out. 

754
00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:03,800
Okay, and that, you know, 
they're here to help you. 

755
00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:06,700
And then that same person goes, 
it doesn't press conferences. 

756
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:08,600
All these, these cult members, 
and they're really being 

757
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,500
unreasonable. 
They're saying, oh you guys are 

758
00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:12,600
just come out. 
We really want to help you. 

759
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:16,500
Hey, these this cult here these 
Guys are a cult and this cult on

760
00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:19,700
the cult and the divinium call 
him David crush, the co-leader 

761
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:23,300
over and over and over again. 
So, they would say one thing to 

762
00:38:23,300 --> 00:38:26,100
us, and then they would say the 
on Direct opposite or another, 

763
00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:28,900
think the American public that 
one on, for 51 days. 

764
00:38:28,900 --> 00:38:30,900
Guess what? 
Guys that's going to cause a 

765
00:38:30,900 --> 00:38:34,600
massive amount of distrust. 
Let me give you a bottom line. 

766
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,100
Okay, if you don't mind, I 
think. 

767
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,900
I got to be careful here. 
No one wants to look at it this 

768
00:38:43,900 --> 00:38:46,700
way, but I'm going to throw it 
out there. 

769
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:55,300
I think that spiritual things 
took place here and everything. 

770
00:38:55,300 --> 00:38:58,100
David said was going to happen 
came to pass. 

771
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,000
Now. 
He told he said to me, six 

772
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,200
months before this raid and this
is member. 

773
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:08,700
This is 93 tanks and helicopters
had never been used against 

774
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,500
American citizens before my 
father. 

775
00:39:11,700 --> 00:39:16,700
As a history teacher retired. 
So history has been in my life. 

776
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,700
I have studied the Constitution.
I have studied the the 

777
00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:26,000
Revolutionary War, the Civil 
War, the causes thus for both 

778
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,800
Vietnam World War One, World War
Two. 

779
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,800
I'm pretty good understanding of
this stuff. 

780
00:39:33,900 --> 00:39:36,800
Even at a young age. 
I was on a roof with David and 

781
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,700
he said, what are you gonna do 
tips when their tanks running up

782
00:39:39,700 --> 00:39:43,700
and down the W Ranch Road? 
I said David, I don't care what 

783
00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:46,400
you're doing or what you think 
you're doing or how bad you 

784
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:48,900
think you are. 
Or what the government the big 

785
00:39:48,900 --> 00:39:51,600
bad government is going to come 
in on us because you're teaching

786
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,700
the Seven Seals. 
And that's the way that he 

787
00:39:53,707 --> 00:39:56,800
looked at it but because he was 
teaching the Seven Seals. 

788
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,300
The message will be fought 
against and destroyed. 

789
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,700
I said, they're never going to 
use tanks on this property again

790
00:40:02,700 --> 00:40:05,100
citizens. 
Six months later. 

791
00:40:05,100 --> 00:40:07,000
I'm watching. 
Tanks, go up and down the W 

792
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,600
Ranch Road. 
He told Kathy Schroeder. 

793
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,500
Kathy. 
What are you gonna do? 

794
00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:13,300
When? 
There's helicopters buzzing the 

795
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:15,600
building? 
Kathy Schroeder said the same 

796
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,800
thing. 
Dave, they are never going to 

797
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,100
use helicopters against this 
group of people. 

798
00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:21,900
It's not how it's done here in 
America. 

799
00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:25,100
Six months later. 
There are helicopters, buzzing 

800
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,000
the building. 
As a matter of fact. 

801
00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:36,700
The worst case of my PTSD was 
after everything happened. 

802
00:40:36,700 --> 00:40:39,100
I got back to me and I would 
hear a helicopter. 

803
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,700
And next thing I know I would 
wake up and I would be under the

804
00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:44,600
bed. 
Every time I heard a helicopter.

805
00:40:44,900 --> 00:40:47,900
I would kind of blackout and I 
would open my eyes and I would 

806
00:40:47,900 --> 00:40:52,800
be under the bed. 
So for some reason that was the 

807
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,300
triggering thing was a 
helicopter helicopter. 

808
00:40:55,300 --> 00:40:58,200
Always made me hit the floor and
look for cover. 

809
00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:01,100
That was just a very weird 
reaction, but it happened to me 

810
00:41:01,107 --> 00:41:03,500
a couple times before I get used
to the fact that okay. 

811
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,600
That's just a civilian 
helicopter, and I'm not in a war

812
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:12,000
zone anymore. 
Yeah, so your question. 

813
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,500
Absolutely absolutely. 
So I didn't notice that I'm 

814
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:18,700
going on for these tangents that
I don't know if I'm actually 

815
00:41:18,700 --> 00:41:21,600
answering your questions. 
Well, yeah. 

816
00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:27,500
So, um, I have a source that 
says after the fire and ATF 

817
00:41:27,500 --> 00:41:31,900
agent put the ATF flag on the 
Branch Davidian. 

818
00:41:31,900 --> 00:41:35,800
Pull did that happen? 
Yeah, but it wasn't just the ATF

819
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:37,900
flag. 
It was the ATF flag and then 

820
00:41:37,900 --> 00:41:40,800
above that. 
As the Texas state flag and 

821
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,400
above. 
That was the American flags. 

822
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,000
They put three flags on the 
pole. 

823
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,300
Like he'll they'd want a war. 
Yes. 

824
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:54,100
So, here is episode 5 of the of 
the Waco show. 

825
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,400
Now, you're watching it. 
And you're like, okay, if you 

826
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,500
didn't have any history, why are
they obsessing over these 

827
00:42:00,500 --> 00:42:01,600
people? 
All right. 

828
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,300
There was a firefight that, but 
whatever, just move on. 

829
00:42:04,300 --> 00:42:05,800
Why are you spending all this 
time? 

830
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:08,900
And all this energy and here's 
and money. 

831
00:42:08,900 --> 00:42:11,000
Yeah. 
And here's what. 

832
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,800
Here's what the show says. 
The FBI agent goes five thousand

833
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,800
to On those are the odds against
us. 5,000 people to everyone 

834
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,400
officer of the law. 
You know, how we keep order with

835
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,800
those eyes because people 
believe we're more powerful than

836
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,100
we are. 
We project strength and the 

837
00:42:29,100 --> 00:42:32,200
people believe in that strength,
when we sit outside a place like

838
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,200
this for weeks on end, waiting 
for them to Tire. 

839
00:42:35,500 --> 00:42:38,300
We look weak in front of the 
west of the world and every a 

840
00:42:38,300 --> 00:42:40,900
hole with a bomb kit, starts 
getting ideas. 

841
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,300
This is more than a situation. 
Now, Gary. 

842
00:42:43,500 --> 00:42:46,500
This is a symbol. 
Are we the kind of agency that 

843
00:42:46,500 --> 00:42:49,900
cottle's Cop killers. 
Do you think that is the 

844
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:53,700
mentality that was included into
them which allowed them to 

845
00:42:53,700 --> 00:42:56,900
justify the atrocities that took
place at Mount Carmel. 

846
00:42:57,500 --> 00:43:01,100
Certainly sounds, right. 
I mean, it has a ring of truth. 

847
00:43:01,300 --> 00:43:07,500
I hear certain things that has 
that ring of Truth or that or 

848
00:43:07,500 --> 00:43:10,900
that flat sound that rings to be
not true. 

849
00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:12,800
That has a ring of truth to it 
to me. 

850
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,100
Yes. 
It wasn't for sure. 

851
00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:19,500
No, I don't know for sure. 
But the attitude that I get from

852
00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:25,600
these guys, is a lot of them 
were very good. 

853
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:28,900
Football players in college. 
That didn't make the pros in a 

854
00:43:28,908 --> 00:43:33,400
really pissed off about it. 
They're just a bunch of Macho 

855
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:37,200
guys that want to use their toys
and they got an excuse and 

856
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,700
they're taking a going to take 
full advantage of it. 

857
00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:42,900
That was the attitude when 
you're on a tank and you know, 

858
00:43:42,900 --> 00:43:45,500
there's a bunch of women and a 
bunch of old ladies and a bunch 

859
00:43:45,500 --> 00:43:48,600
of kids in the building. 
And you pull your pants down, 

860
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:53,000
spread your butt cheeks apart. 
That's the kind of mentality, 

861
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,000
you know, man. 
That's not a professional. 

862
00:43:56,300 --> 00:44:01,000
That's not professional guys. 
You're the FBI and I don't care.

863
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,500
If you're the leader of the FBI 
or a hostage Rescue Team, guy or

864
00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:06,700
negotiator. 
There's a certain amount of 

865
00:44:06,700 --> 00:44:10,900
professionalism and probably 
mooning a bunch of kids and 

866
00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:13,600
giving him the fingers and the 
most professional thing you can 

867
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,400
do. 
You look like a disgruntled 

868
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,400
College. 
You look like an idiot when you 

869
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,000
do crap, like that. 
And you need to be called on it.

870
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,600
So here, I'm going to call you. 
I saw it. 

871
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,900
I'll call you on it. 
You did it, you guys? 

872
00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:30,200
Yeah, it just makes me crazy. 
These are the forces. 

873
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:31,600
These are the people that we 
look to. 

874
00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:34,000
And that's the thing. 
You know, the FBI, they're good 

875
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,700
at what they do when it comes to
getting bank robbers. 

876
00:44:36,700 --> 00:44:40,600
And, you know, they have 
protected the American people on

877
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,100
many occasions from some 
disasters that could have taken 

878
00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:46,200
place. 
So it's not like they're not 

879
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,700
good at their job. 
Jobs, but they're really good at

880
00:44:48,700 --> 00:44:51,100
their jobs. 
So when little brother screws 

881
00:44:51,100 --> 00:44:55,200
up, big brother knows how to use
the words to justify the actions

882
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,500
of little brother and I think 
that's kind of what has happened

883
00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:00,200
here. 
Sure. 

884
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,500
Um, yeah, I just thought that 
was an interesting insight into 

885
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,900
the mindset of, oh, that's what 
the average that's what's going 

886
00:45:08,900 --> 00:45:12,200
through their minds. 
Because it's rough to, you know,

887
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,500
sympathize with, you know, with 
them during this thing. 

888
00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:17,800
What were your overall? 
Thoughts during the 

889
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,100
negotiations. 
Were you happy? 

890
00:45:21,100 --> 00:45:23,700
Did you think one side was 
getting wrong? 

891
00:45:23,700 --> 00:45:25,400
Did you think they were 
stubborn? 

892
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:27,200
People? 
Did you think there was a really

893
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,300
good thing that could have 
happened but didn't follow 

894
00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:32,300
through. 
What were your general thoughts 

895
00:45:32,300 --> 00:45:35,200
during the negotiations? 
Yeah, there were times of 

896
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,500
negotiators. 
Negotiations were going. 

897
00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:40,500
Well. 
I think that we worked well with

898
00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:43,500
Gary and maybe I think there's 
one or two other negotiators. 

899
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:47,200
That David actually liked but 
they would often they would Take

900
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,500
like I said there would take 
them off and put someone else on

901
00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:51,500
you. 
No didn't work. 

902
00:45:51,500 --> 00:45:54,800
So well with David or maybe it 
was more confrontational and 

903
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,400
they were trying different 
things and I wondered why they 

904
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,200
would I always wonder why would 
they do that? 

905
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,100
Why would they take the person? 
That was working? 

906
00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:06,000
Well with us off the case, 
unless they wanted the place, 

907
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,300
the outcome that they ended up 
getting, which is Place burning 

908
00:46:09,300 --> 00:46:11,400
to the ground. 
Let's face it. 

909
00:46:11,500 --> 00:46:13,700
The government benefited from 
the place, burning to the 

910
00:46:13,707 --> 00:46:15,700
ground. 
I'm sorry, but they benefited 

911
00:46:15,700 --> 00:46:19,400
from it all the Wounds in the 
ceiling from the helicopters, 

912
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,800
the bullet holes in the doors 
and you know, who's not to say 

913
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:24,700
that this evidence wouldn't have
still disappeared. 

914
00:46:24,700 --> 00:46:27,000
The problem will still 
disappeared even if the place 

915
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,300
had stood, but it would have 
been better for us at the place,

916
00:46:30,300 --> 00:46:32,300
stood. 
At a definitely benefited the 

917
00:46:32,300 --> 00:46:34,500
government for the place not 
standing and burning to the 

918
00:46:34,500 --> 00:46:36,800
ground. 
So, I mean, you know, I think 

919
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,400
that's true. 
That's a true statement. 

920
00:46:38,500 --> 00:46:42,900
Absolutely. 
Now, here is from episode 6 of 

921
00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:46,600
the series of Radio broadcasters
as the FBI and branch. 

922
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,200
And each claim the other started
the fire, and we may never know 

923
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,100
the truth. 
Now, before that Bill Clinton is

924
00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:56,000
the one that was him, who said, 
just because some religious 

925
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,100
Fanatics decided to murder 
themselves, Reno should not 

926
00:46:59,100 --> 00:47:03,300
resign the guy in the show. 
Then says we may never know the 

927
00:47:03,300 --> 00:47:05,100
truth. 
So instead let's talk about what

928
00:47:05,100 --> 00:47:09,700
we do, know fact, Fresno, 
California 1973, a standoff with

929
00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:13,600
law enforcement ends, when tear 
gas turns to fire killing those 

930
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:19,700
inside fact, Los Angeles. 
For standoff between SLA and law

931
00:47:19,700 --> 00:47:22,800
enforcement ends, when tear gas 
turns to fire killing those 

932
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,600
inside West Fork. 
AR Arkansas, 1981 a standoff. 

933
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:31,500
Tear gas fire, Death 1983, 
Smithfield, Arkansas. 1985, 

934
00:47:31,500 --> 00:47:35,800
Philadelphia, 1987's. 
Ganado, California, all of them,

935
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,500
standoff tear gas, fire Death. 
The FBI knows this and get made 

936
00:47:40,500 --> 00:47:46,200
no plan to put out the fire. 
If it started, you think that 

937
00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:48,400
everyone inside Ed was murdered 
intentionally. 

938
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:56,900
Murdered intentionally. 
Okay, that's Wow, yes or no. 

939
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,900
Here's why I say that. 
I don't think that every FBI 

940
00:48:00,900 --> 00:48:04,000
agent one of the outcome of what
happened at Mount Carmel. 

941
00:48:08,500 --> 00:48:12,500
I think I think a lot of the 
agents on the ground had no idea

942
00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:15,200
what was going on. 
I think the agents on the 

943
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,200
ground, didn't know what CS gas 
to do a building if it was used 

944
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,300
inside. 
I could tell by the two FBI 

945
00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:24,900
agents that I came in contact 
with After exiting the building.

946
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:31,000
Doing when the place is burning.
And they're looking frantic and 

947
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,800
scared. 
And I see the fear in their eyes

948
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:39,700
from the place burning and the 
the kids literally dying that 

949
00:48:39,700 --> 00:48:41,900
they were horrified by that. 
I saw that. 

950
00:48:42,900 --> 00:48:46,900
So, you know, I don't think that
that that's the outcome that 

951
00:48:46,900 --> 00:48:50,900
they wanted but I think that the
people that were making the 

952
00:48:50,900 --> 00:48:53,600
decisions that they knew what 
was going to happen. 

953
00:48:54,500 --> 00:48:57,500
Why else would you put the huge 
holes in the building causing an

954
00:48:57,500 --> 00:49:01,200
oxygen flow system? 
But wrecking the building and 

955
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,800
having the tanks go through. 
They, that's what they did. 

956
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,400
They, that building was ready to
go up like a, like a pot-bellied

957
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,500
stove is some of the analogies 
that have been used. 

958
00:49:10,700 --> 00:49:13,400
The amount of Cs gas, use 
awesome. 

959
00:49:14,100 --> 00:49:17,600
Why would they have peritectic 
devices in their period? 

960
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,300
There were four pyrotechnic 
devices that were found if you 

961
00:49:21,300 --> 00:49:23,600
don't want that building to go 
up. 

962
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:29,100
Why would you what's the word 
invite the controversy by having

963
00:49:29,100 --> 00:49:30,600
Pirates? 
Devices in the round. 

964
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,400
As a matter of fact, they denied
it for years. 

965
00:49:33,900 --> 00:49:35,200
And then finally they had to 
say. 

966
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:36,800
Oh, yeah. 
Well, we did have pyrotechnic 

967
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,300
devices in there. 
But the Branch Davidian still 

968
00:49:39,300 --> 00:49:42,800
started the fire. 
Let's talk about one more thing 

969
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,400
to let's talk about the 
audiotapes of the people saying.

970
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,300
Spread the fire like this, put 
some there, put some there. 

971
00:49:50,300 --> 00:49:51,700
Do that. 
You've heard this. 

972
00:49:51,900 --> 00:49:55,900
Most people have heard, this has
been on was featured on the NPR 

973
00:49:56,100 --> 00:49:59,400
documentary about Ruby about 
Oklahoma City. 

974
00:49:59,900 --> 00:50:01,200
And that's when they brought 
that in. 

975
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,000
I don't that just blows my mind 
because when I they played those

976
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:09,800
tapes for me when I was sitting 
before the grand jury, and I 

977
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,000
couldn't tell what was being 
said and then they gave me 

978
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,900
something that they typed down 
that said, Start the Fire do 

979
00:50:15,900 --> 00:50:19,400
this through to put some here 
and there trying to tell me 

980
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,700
that, that's what's being said 
on the tapes and I'm like, 

981
00:50:21,700 --> 00:50:25,800
that's not what I heard. 
I heard cut the power, not like 

982
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,200
the fire when I listened to the 
tape. 

983
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,600
In the headphones, they're 
playing it for and then they 

984
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,000
would say well, why would they 
see cook the power and I'd say I

985
00:50:35,008 --> 00:50:37,700
don't know maybe because the 
Jenners did the generators. 

986
00:50:37,700 --> 00:50:39,600
I don't know. 
But that's what I hear. 

987
00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:41,300
Now. 
Here's what troubles me about to

988
00:50:41,308 --> 00:50:44,600
take. 
The FBI says that those tapes 

989
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:48,200
were taking at 6 a.m. 
The day of the fire that those 

990
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,400
recordings where they're saying 
spread some here. 

991
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:52,400
Put some here are taken at 6:00 
a.m. 

992
00:50:53,100 --> 00:50:55,100
If those tapes were taking the 6
a.m. 

993
00:50:55,100 --> 00:50:57,700
And why did the fire not start 
till six hours later? 

994
00:50:59,100 --> 00:51:01,500
12:00. 
So in the fire starter people 

995
00:51:01,500 --> 00:51:04,800
inside set that fire and those 
tapes prove that they set the 

996
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,900
fire, then why did it take six 
hours from the fire to start 

997
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,100
number one and they are. 
This is their own. 

998
00:51:11,100 --> 00:51:13,400
I mean, this is the FBI had 
never said. 

999
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:16,700
Those tapes are taken at 6 a.m. 
I think their case would have 

1000
00:51:16,700 --> 00:51:20,200
been more compelling but they 
said they say the tapes were 

1001
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,200
taken at 6 a.m. 
And then when they're asked, 

1002
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,300
well if you knew that the 
Davidians were spreading fuel. 

1003
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:27,600
Why did you go forward with the 
raid? 

1004
00:51:28,100 --> 00:51:31,000
And then they said, we didn't 
know that we couldn't hear what 

1005
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:35,200
was being said, until we got the
tapes back to our labs and 

1006
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:40,900
Virginia and scrubbed them. 
The FBI terms scrubbed. 

1007
00:51:40,900 --> 00:51:44,300
They had to scrub the tapes to 
find out what was being said. 

1008
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:48,200
Now, if anyone has seen, there's
movie that I think it's really 

1009
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,500
good. 
It's called Primal colors the 

1010
00:51:51,500 --> 00:51:54,900
world, John Travolta, and it's 
Loosely based on the Clinton 

1011
00:51:54,900 --> 00:51:58,000
campaign. 
There's a scene in there where 

1012
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,600
Basically, through audio 
manipulation. 

1013
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:06,300
They make Larry King. 
Sounds like he's hitting on 

1014
00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:09,500
hitting on a woman when he's 
just ordering a, when he's 

1015
00:52:09,500 --> 00:52:10,500
getting one. 
He's just calling. 

1016
00:52:10,500 --> 00:52:13,500
And getting a reservation. 
It's an interesting scene 

1017
00:52:13,500 --> 00:52:16,800
because it shows how easily 
audio tapes and cell phone 

1018
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:18,900
Communications can be 
manipulated. 

1019
00:52:19,100 --> 00:52:22,300
And that was back in the 90s 
that this movie came out. 

1020
00:52:22,300 --> 00:52:25,200
I believe was the 90s. 
So that was before all the kind 

1021
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,800
of Technology. 
We have. 

1022
00:52:27,800 --> 00:52:32,200
Today is very easy to manipulate
phone conversations and 

1023
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,100
recordings and things like that.
My accusing them of that. 

1024
00:52:36,100 --> 00:52:38,700
No, I think that it's entirely 
possible. 

1025
00:52:38,700 --> 00:52:41,600
However, I don't know for sure 
if that's what they did. 

1026
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,300
But they did say that they had 
to take their tapes, back to the

1027
00:52:44,300 --> 00:52:47,100
lab in the scrub them. 
That's their words, not mine. 

1028
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:53,500
So I think it's definitely 
important to get this message 

1029
00:52:53,500 --> 00:52:55,600
out. 
And as you said, it's been a 

1030
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:57,800
rough 20-something years doing 
it. 

1031
00:52:57,900 --> 00:53:01,400
I'm curious, you talk. 
I don't want to know if it's 

1032
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:02,700
not. 
I'm not sure if I should have it

1033
00:53:02,700 --> 00:53:07,000
coming from you, but I'm the 
average person does think ATF 

1034
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:10,700
just went in just walked in you 
guys started shooting. 

1035
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:14,400
There was a 51-day standoff and 
then when they came in, you 

1036
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,800
said, you know what? 
Before they get us, we're going 

1037
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:20,500
to light ourselves on fire. 
That's that is the general 

1038
00:53:20,700 --> 00:53:23,700
consensus. 
What is your elevator pitch to 

1039
00:53:23,700 --> 00:53:25,700
someone? 
Who has that idea? 

1040
00:53:25,900 --> 00:53:28,300
And you want them to think 
differently about what happened?

1041
00:53:29,900 --> 00:53:32,800
Just look at the facts, man. 
All you gotta do is do a little 

1042
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,800
research, find out, if half of 
think about it, half of the 

1043
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,700
things I've said in this 
interview a true, you guys 

1044
00:53:39,700 --> 00:53:43,200
should be scared out of your 
mind, you know, you guys should 

1045
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:48,200
really review the way, the 
things that you're that you That

1046
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,000
the media to the things you 
believe from your press and from

1047
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,800
your news agencies. 
You should be terrified because 

1048
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:57,700
you know what? 
You are being lied to hunt a 

1049
00:53:57,707 --> 00:54:00,700
daily basis. 
And if you don't see that, then 

1050
00:54:00,700 --> 00:54:02,800
you kind of deserve what you 
get, because you're living in 

1051
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:06,700
your ignorance, everything. 
I say to you, everything I've 

1052
00:54:06,700 --> 00:54:09,800
presented. 
I believe to be true, 100% 

1053
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,100
everything I presented. 
I present because I have 

1054
00:54:13,100 --> 00:54:15,300
pictures. 
I have the Audio. 

1055
00:54:15,500 --> 00:54:17,600
I thought about it. 
I've seen the things. 

1056
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,600
They say and I know what the 
truth is because I was there. 

1057
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,200
I'm not sick. 
Look, I'm not getting rich doing

1058
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:26,200
this guys. 
This is that I would much rather

1059
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,600
be playing drums with ab and 
then doing this and having to 

1060
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:33,100
talk about this. 
But I am just I got to tell you 

1061
00:54:33,100 --> 00:54:36,100
the older I get and the more 
these documentaries that I come 

1062
00:54:36,100 --> 00:54:39,200
up that I see on TV that don't 
get the story, right? 

1063
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,300
It makes me crazy when I see 
that a and a documentary and 

1064
00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:45,600
it's really good. 
They're interviewing David 

1065
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:48,900
koresh's Stepbrother. 
And he's talking about, you 

1066
00:54:48,900 --> 00:54:50,900
know, they're interviewing 
people that were involved and 

1067
00:54:50,900 --> 00:54:52,600
I'm like, oh my God, they're 
really getting the other side 

1068
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:54,100
here and then they get to the 
end. 

1069
00:54:54,500 --> 00:54:56,400
And at the end they say, well, 
it's too bad. 

1070
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,700
The people set the place on 
fire. 

1071
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,100
They're still, oh my God, 
they're pretending to be 

1072
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:07,300
unbiased but they're not, 
they're not talking about the 

1073
00:55:07,300 --> 00:55:09,500
fully automatic weapons. 
Fire at the back of the building

1074
00:55:09,500 --> 00:55:10,900
people being shot trying to 
escape. 

1075
00:55:10,900 --> 00:55:12,600
They're not talking about the 
explosions. 

1076
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:16,000
We have on infrared video tape 
from the sources of one of the 

1077
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:17,600
fires at the back of the 
building. 

1078
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:20,000
Don't mention that. 
What they say is the people 

1079
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,500
inside started the fire and it 
goes on and on, and on, and 

1080
00:55:23,500 --> 00:55:25,900
they're just not talking about 
the other side of, they're not 

1081
00:55:25,900 --> 00:55:28,900
talking about the reality of 
what really happened, and just 

1082
00:55:28,900 --> 00:55:32,300
blows my mind. 
It's it doesn't end to this day.

1083
00:55:32,300 --> 00:55:34,200
They're putting up till 
communication. 

1084
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,000
You know, it's really funny. 
I'm not actually that you 

1085
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,200
brought that up. 
I was thinking the other day 

1086
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,600
about Byron Sage, who was it? 
Who was interviewed in that 

1087
00:55:44,300 --> 00:55:48,100
documentary? 
And he said, you know that there

1088
00:55:48,100 --> 00:55:51,000
were during the fire. 
I don't understand why those 

1089
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:52,500
people didn't bring out the 
children. 

1090
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,300
One of the people brought out a 
dog, but not his own daughter 

1091
00:55:57,300 --> 00:56:01,100
who died in the fire. 
That was very, that's just 

1092
00:56:01,100 --> 00:56:04,600
malicious and unfair. 
He's talking about Clive Doyle. 

1093
00:56:05,300 --> 00:56:07,200
Now, Clyde goes from the nicest,
man. 

1094
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,000
You'll ever meet in your life. 
Climbed all came out of the same

1095
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:10,800
hole. 
I did. 

1096
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:12,300
He's in the same area of the 
building. 

1097
00:56:12,300 --> 00:56:15,400
I was in his daughter was in the
other, are in the building the 

1098
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:20,000
tanks, destroyed, any kind of 
Avenue of him getting to Cherry 

1099
00:56:20,300 --> 00:56:23,000
or me getting the serenity 
because I tried to and the tanks

1100
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:24,500
and Right. 
There was no way to get down the

1101
00:56:24,508 --> 00:56:26,900
hallway. 
It was impossible. 

1102
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:31,400
You couldn't do it. 
A dog, followed Clive Doyle out 

1103
00:56:31,400 --> 00:56:33,100
of the building and out of the 
fire. 

1104
00:56:33,300 --> 00:56:35,400
Clive didn't bring the dog out 
of the fire. 

1105
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,000
The dog was smart enough to get 
out and follow them and then 

1106
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,000
Byron's Sage to say that why 
didn't know one bring out any 

1107
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,700
children, you know, why Byron 
because you took a tank into the

1108
00:56:45,700 --> 00:56:48,800
front of the building and you 
gasps them to death. 

1109
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,300
You passed them to death, you 
gasps, those kids to death, 

1110
00:56:53,700 --> 00:56:57,000
shame on you. 
Your Everlasting contempt to sit

1111
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,600
there and lie to the American 
public the way you Did the kids 

1112
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:03,100
didn't come out because they 
couldn't, you guess them to 

1113
00:57:03,100 --> 00:57:06,000
death my friend and you blame us
for it. 

1114
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:08,700
Shame on. 
You Byron Sage. 

1115
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:11,800
Oh, and incidentally, we have 
two pictures hanging up right 

1116
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:15,000
now in the sanctuary here that 
show Byron Sage coming out and 

1117
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,800
posing for a picture while the 
buildings burning in the 

1118
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,600
background. 
Not one. 

1119
00:57:19,900 --> 00:57:22,900
He said on National Television. 
Once I wasn't posing for a 

1120
00:57:22,908 --> 00:57:26,000
trophy picture, I came out and 
someone took that picture. 

1121
00:57:26,300 --> 00:57:29,100
He was very offended that 
someone will call him on it. 

1122
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,900
I guess what we don't have one, 
but we have two pictures. 

1123
00:57:31,900 --> 00:57:36,500
We have a picture of the place. 
Burnt starting, I would say 

1124
00:57:36,500 --> 00:57:39,300
maybe five minutes in 10 minutes
into the burn, and then we have 

1125
00:57:39,300 --> 00:57:42,500
another picture of him posing in
a different area where the with 

1126
00:57:42,500 --> 00:57:45,100
a building in the background, 
totally burnt to the ground so 

1127
00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:48,500
he didn't pose once but twice 
and then he's going to sit there

1128
00:57:48,500 --> 00:57:51,500
and lie to me in light of the 
American public and say that he 

1129
00:57:51,508 --> 00:57:54,000
didn't pose for a picture. 
You want to play that game 

1130
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:55,200
buddy. 
We got the evidence. 

1131
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:57,500
You come to Mount Carmel. 
You can see it for yourself. 

1132
00:57:57,700 --> 00:58:01,300
I'm sick of them, lying. 
So, the American public just 

1133
00:58:01,300 --> 00:58:03,800
lying and then, you know, 
calling me a liar. 

1134
00:58:03,900 --> 00:58:05,100
Whatever. 
Dude, you can say what you want.

1135
00:58:05,100 --> 00:58:08,800
I got the truth on my side. 
I can live with myself buyer and

1136
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,700
Sage, all you hostage Rescue 
Team guys, you tough guys. 

1137
00:58:13,000 --> 00:58:15,000
I don't know how you can live 
with yourselves killing a bunch 

1138
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,400
of kids, killing women and 
children. 

1139
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:19,400
Whatever. 
I can I can look myself in the 

1140
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:24,100
mirror. 
Shame on you again. 

1141
00:58:24,100 --> 00:58:28,300
David's book is Waco. 
A survivor's Story by David 

1142
00:58:28,300 --> 00:58:32,000
Thibodeau. 
Last name spelled th ibe d.e.a. 

1143
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:35,600
You. 
I got to its Bo D. 

1144
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:40,300
Thi Bo D, Tau, B, 0 D, Tau, I'm 
sorry. 

1145
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,400
It's called. 
So to softballs for you. 

1146
00:58:43,900 --> 00:58:46,100
Who is your favorite drummer of 
all time? 

1147
00:58:47,100 --> 00:58:53,800
Whoo, I 3 i 4. 
Yeah, I okay. 

1148
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:58,600
I got did somebody Rich Neil 
Peart John Bonham and Akira 

1149
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:00,600
Jimbo probably not in that 
order. 

1150
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:02,700
But whatever. 
They're all pretty amazing. 

1151
00:59:03,100 --> 00:59:07,600
Have you seen Neil Peart live? 
Oh, yes twice as phenomenal and 

1152
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:09,200
I somebody Rich before he died, 
too. 

1153
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:11,400
Yeah. 
Absolutely. 

1154
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:14,100
Incredible. 
And what is your favorite Bible 

1155
00:59:14,100 --> 00:59:21,800
verse? 
Wow, dude, that's okay. 

1156
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:26,900
I wasn't prepared for that. 
My favorite Bible verse, okay. 

1157
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:31,700
I'm not going to be able to 
quote the source. 

1158
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:35,600
Yeah, I could, if I thought 
about it. 

1159
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,700
There's a, I have a favorite 
verse about. 

1160
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:42,300
The day will come when the 
children of God will be able to 

1161
00:59:42,300 --> 00:59:44,500
come to the Waters of life and 
they will be able to drink 

1162
00:59:44,500 --> 00:59:47,500
freely. 
And then that day when you can 

1163
00:59:47,500 --> 00:59:49,100
drink from the Waters of Life 
freely. 

1164
00:59:49,100 --> 00:59:52,400
It says God will take out your 
Stony heart and it will give you

1165
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:55,500
a heart of Flesh. 
And it says, once you have the 

1166
00:59:55,500 --> 00:59:58,700
heart of Flesh, you will weep 
for the person. 

1167
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:01,700
You were in the sight of God 
during your lifetime. 

1168
01:00:02,500 --> 01:00:05,100
And you will weeping, you will 
mourn like someone morning their

1169
01:00:05,100 --> 01:00:08,500
only child for what a sitz. 
I'm paraphrasing here for what a

1170
01:00:08,508 --> 01:00:10,400
scumbag. 
You were in the sight of God 

1171
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,700
just being a sinner and it says 
you will mourn so much. 

1172
01:00:13,700 --> 01:00:16,000
You won't even want to be called
by your name and I will give you

1173
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,900
a new name in that day. 
And that day, you will have a 

1174
01:00:18,900 --> 01:00:23,500
new name and you will have a new
heart and you'll be a new person

1175
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:28,400
and you'll be like, I said, I'm 
paraphrasing, but you'll be my 

1176
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:29,900
son. 
I'll be your father. 

1177
01:00:30,500 --> 01:00:33,300
Everything will be great. 
You'll be made new and it says 

1178
01:00:33,300 --> 01:00:36,400
it will be in pot as it's my 
favorite scripture. 

1179
01:00:36,700 --> 01:00:39,100
It'll be as impossible for you 
to sit in that. 

1180
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:41,800
Each day as it is for you to do 
righteousness. 

1181
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:44,800
Now and I think that's pretty 
awesome. 

1182
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,900
God's basically saying you're 
going to screw up, you're a 

1183
01:00:47,900 --> 01:00:51,300
sinner, you're a scumbag and 
there's nothing you can do about

1184
01:00:51,300 --> 01:00:55,600
it. 
And there will come the day when

1185
01:00:55,700 --> 01:00:58,800
I will make you deal when you 
won't be able to sin, and will 

1186
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,800
be as impossible for you to send
as it is for you to do 

1187
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,200
righteousness. 
Now, and I think that justifies 

1188
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,800
all of mankind. 
I think that's just an amazing 

1189
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:10,600
scripture. 
I think it's Jeremiah. 

1190
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,400
I'll have to look it up. 
Have you met? 

1191
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,800
But I promise is the final one. 
Have you ever heard someone as 

1192
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:20,100
good as let me turn my AC off. 
Give me just one second. 

1193
01:01:20,300 --> 01:01:23,900
Okay? 
Just want to let you know, you 

1194
01:01:23,900 --> 01:01:29,000
can find Waco, a Survivor Story 
by David Thibodeau in the link 

1195
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:33,300
below in the description. 
Either them to Amazon. 

1196
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:38,800
So, have you ever met someone as
good as David at conveying the 

1197
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:40,800
message? 
No, never never. 

1198
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,700
Actually, I'm glad you brought 
that up because I was super 

1199
01:01:44,700 --> 01:01:51,200
hyper aware of people that were 
teaching scripture, all the TV 

1200
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:53,600
preachers, I would Stem, as a 
kid. 

1201
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,300
And wonder why people didn't see
through them. 

1202
01:01:57,300 --> 01:01:59,700
I would watch them as a kid and 
go, how could people send these 

1203
01:01:59,700 --> 01:02:02,900
guys their money. 
That's just so fake. 

1204
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:05,000
And again, I hope I'm not 
offending. 

1205
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,700
People would have sent money to 
TV preachers, but to be 

1206
01:02:07,700 --> 01:02:10,800
interesting, very, very fake. 
When I were first moved to 

1207
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:13,600
Hollywood. 
I would pass my went to music 

1208
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,600
school out there in the 
Scientology building was right 

1209
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:19,700
on the corner of my school and I
would pass by every day and they

1210
01:02:19,700 --> 01:02:21,500
go free personality test for a 
test. 

1211
01:02:21,500 --> 01:02:23,900
Would you like a free? 
Test and was God, I won't I'll 

1212
01:02:23,900 --> 01:02:26,700
never forget him and I'd be 
like, no, I don't have a 

1213
01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:28,700
personality pal. 
You know, we got Snappy little 

1214
01:02:28,700 --> 01:02:33,000
things, we would say to them and
I just always saw through it. 

1215
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:35,900
A bunch of people showed up 
with, you know, like all the 

1216
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:39,000
girls had the same skirts on, on
the boys had the same shirts on 

1217
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,300
and the same pants and I'm just 
like, wow, that's just. 

1218
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:44,900
That's, you know, that's some 
kind of sect. 

1219
01:02:44,900 --> 01:02:45,900
I don't like to use the word 
help. 

1220
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,400
But the point is, I was hyper 
sensitive because I didn't want 

1221
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:52,100
to get involved in a cult or a 
group or religious. 

1222
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:55,100
And even the Hari krishna's 
anything, you know, any of those

1223
01:02:55,100 --> 01:02:56,900
groups. 
I just I didn't that wasn't my 

1224
01:02:56,900 --> 01:02:59,400
thing. 
And so what I meant David and 

1225
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:03,600
Steve at Guitar Center on Sunset
Boulevard after we talked a 

1226
01:03:03,607 --> 01:03:06,200
little bit, they just said that 
they had some knowledge about 

1227
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,000
the scripture. 
They didn't preach to me. 

1228
01:03:09,700 --> 01:03:13,900
They had ripped the Bible part 
from Genesis to Revelation. 

1229
01:03:13,900 --> 01:03:15,200
They really knew something about
it. 

1230
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:17,900
They treated it as a study and 
to me that's what was 

1231
01:03:17,900 --> 01:03:20,800
fascinating. 
They weren't saying just believe

1232
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,000
this or just believe that or you
have To believe me. 

1233
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:26,100
It's like what does it say? 
They just approached it 

1234
01:03:26,100 --> 01:03:28,200
differently, and I thought that 
was interesting. 

1235
01:03:28,700 --> 01:03:31,600
So, and they actually 
interviewed a bunch of my 

1236
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:35,100
friends went all of this first 
happened and they said, so did 

1237
01:03:35,100 --> 01:03:38,300
you ever see David David 
Thibodeau and a kalter in the 

1238
01:03:38,300 --> 01:03:41,800
group like this? 
And just about every one of the 

1239
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:43,800
people that they interviewed 
that knew me said, Dave 

1240
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:47,300
Thibodeau is the last person I 
ever saw ending up in a group 

1241
01:03:47,300 --> 01:03:49,200
like this. 
And that's kind of true. 

1242
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:51,100
You know, they like to make it 
sound like, oh, you're we were 

1243
01:03:51,100 --> 01:03:54,200
sheep and We had to be led and 
we were looking for a strong 

1244
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:57,000
leader. 
That's may be the case in a few 

1245
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:59,300
of the people, but certainly not
the majority. 

1246
01:03:59,700 --> 01:04:01,600
When Martin was a 
harvard-educated attorney, Steve

1247
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:03,700
Schneider top comparative, 
religions the University of 

1248
01:04:03,700 --> 01:04:06,500
Hawaii, you know, there were 
other people. 

1249
01:04:07,500 --> 01:04:09,300
Most of the people that I knew 
here, were very, very 

1250
01:04:09,300 --> 01:04:11,100
intelligent. 
Let me just put it that way and 

1251
01:04:11,100 --> 01:04:12,900
they didn't, they were not 
sheeple at all. 

1252
01:04:14,900 --> 01:04:18,600
Well, David, thank you so much 
for taking the time today. 

1253
01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:21,700
I really appreciate it. 
And thank you to everyone else 

1254
01:04:21,700 --> 01:04:24,200
for watching. 
Thanks, buddy. 

1255
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:25,900
Appreciate it, man. 
Take care.