Welcome to Keith's night. Don't tread on anyone today.
I'm honored to be speaking with a Waco Survivor David Thibodeau.
You can check out his book Waco, a survivor's story.
They just made a show about his book and another book by the FBI
negotiator at the compound during The Siege David.
Thanks so much for your time. Sure.
You let me start off by saying by one of the FBI negotiators.
The other. Side is on because there was
twenty three different FBI negotiators during The Siege.
And they try to say in interviews, try to say that's
because, you know, 24 hours. We always wanted an agent
available. Well, the truth is whenever they
had an FBI negotiator that was working well with David koresh
and or Steve Schneider and there was a Harmony going.
They would take him off and put someone else on and sometimes it
would be someone who was an atheist that it was it varied to
their degree of Personality that the particular FBI negotiator
that they would put on that was working with David, but it's
funny Gary Lesnar. He was the guy that was early on
and was saying, you know, we shouldn't we shouldn't bring
David koresh's Vision to come to pass.
We should maybe relieve the pressure put take pressure off
the situation instead of the Tactical commanders, putting
pressure on the people inside there, which actually, you know,
in retrospect for me because obviously for years.
I didn't like anyone associated. FBI.
But at least Gary had, I mean, I thought that was he had the
proper way of looking at it. If they would people were coming
out, kids were coming out at the first week or so, and some of
the older people were coming out.
If they had had the foresight to maybe listen to Gary and
continue to have that the harmony going between the two
parties. It may have ended very
differently. Now during the negotiations,
there was one episode where David koresh made a deal.
Hey put this video out and then we'll come out and David did go
back on that deal. Do you feel your David was
morally justified in doing so well.
It wasn't a video is a 60-minute audio tape that he had made
revolving around the Seven Seals, but it wasn't really that
detail. Personally.
I'd had studies. David that were far clearer than
the 60 Minute tape. I mean, I pretty much understand
his message where he was coming from and where he was going, and
it made sense to me as a reasonable person.
The tape didn't so much. I, I wasn't too pleased with
tape or whatever. It's what it is.
He still actually did make a deal with them concerning that
60-minute audio. They did say originally that
they would play it nationally and they ended up only playing
it on a Christian radio station. So, is that why he Come on, I
don't really know. I don't know what David's
reasoning was. He just said that he was told to
not come out, but he's, we weren't going to come out yet
that something else had to be done first.
I don't even think he was sure what that was.
I don't think until later when James Tabor and fill Arnold
tools and theologians that had been monitoring the situation
through running Bowman's talk, show that we were listening to
on the inside as well when they said, you know, David actually
does. Of some kind of scriptural
reference in and relevance here and we would be interested in
his message. And looking at it, when Scholars
actually said, that David took that very seriously because
before it was like the scholars didn't want anything to do with
what he had to say, or he never found the right scholar to talk
to. I think he would talk to people
that were running seminary schools and stuff, and they were
you're very mad at him because a lot of their students would
leave their seminary schools. Come and study with David.
That happened over and over and over again, but did you have
another question? Yeah, you look like.
Oh sure. Yeah, you know, I always ask
people what they think. The original justification was
for the February 28th raid. And I've actually never gotten
people to get the correct answer.
Now. I'm curious, what was their
justification for the first rate on February, 28th.
And what do you think? The real reason was interesting?
There's justification. Well, what they said that they
would Chris had fully automatic weapons.
I think, you know, he was taking upper and lower receivers
putting them together. And making semi-automatics in
the fully automatics, of course, the original justification.
Or there was a lot of people overseas that we're getting
upset with Dave because their families were leaving them and
coming to study and stay with David.
So there was a lot of but that that's not a legal reason,
obviously the legal reason, you know, David and especially I
think Paul fatter they had a, there were licensed firearm
dealers. They went to gun shows.
They bought and sold legally. We had yellow sheets on all the
Firearms. One of the interesting.
Things a few recently some of the ATF reports.
One of the report says that they would crush was talking to one
of the undercover agents. And he said, look, I'm getting
upper receivers from one manufacturer lower receivers
from lower receivers from another manufacturer on putting
together and selling them. He goes, That's not illegal.
That's what he told. One of the ATF undercover guys.
And apparently the undercover guy said it was legal, but David
koresh didn't realize that it was illegal, but it was and then
he cites, of course, the the case law for that.
So the bottom line is, he would have had To pay a special tax on
those upper and lower receivers, I believe.
So basically they had a reason for an investigation but David
invited them to check out any of the firearms that they wanted to
check out through Henry McMahon, who was the Firearms dealer?
Is it? Come on and I'll show you the
yellow sheets. They chose not to.
They didn't want to go about it that way.
David crash was the only person on that search and arrest
warrant. So let's see.
There's 130 people in the building and it's only David
koresh on the search and arrest warrants.
So they Really could have gotten him, he dropped by the house.
They said he they said that publicly that he never went to
town or anything. Well again their reports prove
them to be Liars because in their own report few days before
the raid David koresh and to of the undercover agents across the
street, went to a firing range about a mile away from Mount
Carmel and they fired. They fired AR-15s together.
So let's think about that for a second.
One of the one of the undercover guys for the ATF takes an AR-15
and shoots at a Target and then hands that firearm to David
koresh to shoot it the same Target and that just blows my
mind when I read that report. So they were at a firing range
with David. They could easily have gotten a
men. That's not how they wanted to do
what they wanted a big raid and they wanted the big Ray, because
what happened, Randy, Weaver and Ruby Ridge, six months before.
And that is of course a federal Marshal shot Sammy Weaver in the
back. Weaver was killed by an FBI
sniper. I mean, it was a big screw-up
and I know that the ATF there were worried about their budget
coming up in Congress, that they were going to lose money and
maybe, you know, their budget meeting, their big budget
meeting was coming up and they needed, they wanted more money.
So they figured if they had this big.
Here's our here's a group of religious guys, religious people
who study and live by the Bible living, in the middle of
nowhere, Texas. So they go in the big attack
like this. There's not a chance.
Of civilians on the people inside the building being hurt.
They're easy to demonize because they're a religious group, who
has firearms. And David koresh has a lot of
kids with different women. So obviously very easy to
demonize. There's one of my favorite
quotes throughout history of Senator Henry, Clay.
And the 1830s said, the device is of power and its minions are
the same in all countries. In an all ages.
It marks its victim and denounces it exciting, the
public hatred, so I can conceive.
It's on the pieces and encroachments.
So I obviously committed that little that little gem to
memory. So I thought is just so perfect,
but it's exactly, that's exactly it.
You know, if the rate of God, well, for them and they want to
showed a bunch of kids coming out of a building, and they were
actually they rehearsed what to do.
The media consultant for the ATF was saying.
Now, when you come out, make sure your backs are to the
camera. So everyone can see ATF and make
sure your tender with the children, when you're bring
them, bringing them out. And when you bring out the
Firearms, hold them over your head to make sure that everyone
can see, you know, and so they literally they rehearsed this,
they rehearsed what they were going to do.
Unfortunately. The first thing they did was
when they came in, they shot the dogs.
We had five Alaskan Malamutes or penned up in an area.
Not have heard the agents. They were behind a fence and
there was a team of ATF people that went right over there to
shoot the dogs first and the trials in San Antonio.
One of the ATF agents indicated that the first shots were shot
at the dogs and that when the other agents heard the shots
from the team shooting the dogs. They thought it was the people
inside them. They started shooting in the
front door, David koresh of the front door in his hand saying,
hold on. There's women and children here.
Let's talk about this and boom. All these shots came out of and
he fell back from the velocity of the bullets.
Coming through that door. And then everyone heard Perry
Jones a seventy-year-old on our man screaming going down from a
bullet wound, from a bullet, a gunshot in his, in his stomach
from the outside forces and people that were with David at
the front door. I was not, but everyone tells
me. That's when people started to
shoot back. So one more thing to about that,
incidentally the helicopters they had helicopters on the
scene and those helicopters are shooting in the building to its
shot Peter Jet on a tower shot. Winston Blake who was eating a
piece of French toast on his bunk bed went right through his
window and into his head. I actually saw his body and I
saw this trajectory of the bullet that went through a water
tank that was in front of the window.
So I can see that the that bullet was shot from the air.
And I saw that personally, so, Those helicopters came in
firing. Now.
It is illegal to use helicopters to get civilians in the United
States of America. Unless, under the Posse
Comitatus Act. Unless you can prove, there's a
drug Nexus of some kind. So, they said that the people
inside Mount Carmel, had a methamphetamine manufacturing
plant, which was a blatant total.
I we didn't we didn't even drink we drank once every six months
and it was three beers maximum. So, haha.
That's what you do. When the when the Davidians have
a party. That's it is three bears maximum
eat. So it's like you're absolutely
were no drugs at Mount Carmel. I made you this, you know,
they're undercover guys. Robert Rodriguez came to came to
know that the people pretty well.
Robert actually told his superiors.
Look, I've seen no signs of illegal activity.
We need to stop this raid from going forward and they chose to
anyway, that's what I love about the government.
They don't even listen to their own people, the people they pay
and higher to go in and get the The damn information they don't
even listen to them. How as an agency to do.
You not listen to your people on the ground when you have that
many lives at stake. How do you how serum these
people in okayed this rate? How do you okay, an attack on
women and children sitting in their beds and you shoot at them
for 45 minutes? What kind of people are you
really? It makes me angry.
It's just ridiculous. It goes on and on and on with
these people and then they lie about it, they say, A all the
Davidians fired first, it was an ambush.
It wasn't an ambush. They know damn.
Well, it wasn't an ambush and frankly after 25 years.
I'm sick of having to talk about the same crap and have no result
whatsoever. You know, it took, I took a six
part series being made for people to finally turn around
and say, hey, maybe something else happened on Mount Carmel.
And I'm not aware of, I've been talking about this stuff in 25
years, man. And you know, what all these
ATF, guys and FBI, guys, they get their pensions, they get to
live their nice lives and get the vacation, anytime they On,
they're all retired. Now, instead of getting
punished. They got friggin raises and
promotions, you know what the people that survived here.
Got seven years in jail, most of them on a weapons violation, the
jury throughout no less. I'm renting a little today.
This is actually a fun day. I'm glad we did this in the
morning because for some reason, I feel particularly good about
this. But to tell you the truth, I
don't seriously man. I mean, they got, you know,
seven years on weapons violation that the jury throughout the
judge, came back in and said, oh, I'm gonna add the weapons.
Even back in and give these guys 40 years.
Finally, finally. It went to the Supreme Court.
It took seven years to get to the Supreme Court and the
Supreme Court unanimous decision said it's one of the worst
rulings they've ever seen in all their days.
That's Judge Walter Smith. I'll say the name.
Again, judge Walter Smith is guilty of one of the worst
rulings of all time. And it was in the Davidian case
and he did it to protect the government.
They've been protecting themselves from day one.
They shot into the building on the last And they will deny that
to their dying day, but I got to tell you all these agents out
there, if there's an ancient listen to this.
Why don't you come to Mount Carmel?
And talk to me and talk to some of the people out here and
apologize for what you did? Why don't you tell us?
What really happened at the back of the building?
If you're one of those forces if you're one of the guys that
know, why don't you come forward?
You killed a bunch of kids. You guys, gassed a bunch of
women and children to death, that is gonna bother you.
So if you guys, you know, if you want, do the right thing and
come forward at this point in history and be on the right side
of History, I highly. Recommend you do.
So because you know what really sucks is going to be being on
your deathbed and thinking about CS gassing a bunch of kids and
realizing what you really did. Why don't you have the once you
have the nuts to stand up now and be a man and tell people
what you really did at Mount Carmel, because frankly, I'm
sick of it dude. I'm sick of 25 years of everyone
thinking that the people inside set that fire and that they shot
each other at the final stages. You know, what?
Maybe some people worship, maybe some people were trapped and
they shot themselves to escape a fire out.
Blame, the only reason I came out of the building is because I
didn't want to burn to death. I thought I figured the force is
shooting me would be a much better thing.
But I'm telling you, I am pretty sure there was fully automatic
weapon, fire the back of that building, that was coming from
the outside forces into the building.
And I also on that infrared. I've noticed two explosions at
the back of the building and the gym area were one of the fire
begins with just the one of the Three Fires.
Begin at the back of that building.
Now, there were three we found for protecting devices and the
evidence Locker in Austin Texas, the investigator Mike McNulty
who was doing the Rules of Engagement, which is an
excellent documentary. I highly recommended, it was
nominated for an Oscar. It features the flare tape at
the end and you can see the fully automatic weapons fire,
which the government says, is sunlight reflection.
And to this day, they swear by it sunlight reflection.
When I see it. I see something very, very
different. It's much more Sinister.
So okay, you know, that's my rant.
I will go back to the questions. I got.
We Basically, we just cover the entire thing in that one.
Little question of yours. And again, I'm sorry, I slept
really well last night. I feel like I'm on fire this
morning. I'm glad we didn't do this last
night. No problem at all.
So, I want to be clear, so they could.
So David was the only name on the arrest warrant, right?
Whatever arrested him while he was jogging, or while he was at
a bar named Chelsea's. You went through that on Mance
rayder show. I don't want you have to go
through that again. What I know about or how about
what he shooting guns with. The agents.
Yeah, pretty good story. That's a pretty good time to
rest him right there. Three guys alone them and I'm
firing range, shooting guns. They Canada, my gun, my friend,
not only did they not arrested him.
Think about that. The ATF handed, the notorious
the, the Criminal Mind that Mastermind even Crush, they
handed him a firearm and shot with him.
Think about that. This is guys are scared of.
This is guys are investigating who has their enemy a gun.
I just it blows my mind when I sit down.
I think about that. So I just want to be clear
according to a book. No more Waco's by David Capel
and Paul Blackman. They said David koresh.
Invited the ATF agents into the compound.
Is that what happened? Okay, here's what hit look.
Kind of. Yes, actually, yes, because the
undercover agents came over every day.
Robert Rodriguez came over every day for about a month.
Yeah, he got to know the people he said and done studies with
David. He often sat in the foyer
Rodriguez actually brought over a gun that he said he bought at
a okay. He said he bought it at a what
was it, a gun show and the David put the gun in part.
Took it apart and less than like 30 seconds right in front of
Great. I saw the look on his face.
Was Ultimate surprise, David took this kind of party.
I was telling her that he goes. Look at that there, Robert the,
the trigger here. I don't know.
I don't know how guns.
Honestly, the inner workings of firearms, but he said, the
trigger here's been filed down. So that made a full auto.
He was this an illegal firearm, Robert.
And I wish you wouldn't bring that over to my house because
that's illegal Firearms. So I hope you.
You should have known what you were getting here and I would
take that back. Because that's illegal motion of
the proper yellow sheet and he actually was schooling.
The ATF guy. So he was well aware of what was
going on there and that Robert was trying to bait him
basically, but yes, the answer is yes, they were invited in and
they did they were in the they came into Mount Carmel.
Several times. I can't even count the amount of
times. They weren't at Mount Carmel.
So in episode 3 of the show that is based on your book, 20
minutes in, it shows that there's a blockade of the
compound after the February. The eighth grade and they
actually shoot and kill one of the husband's trying to come in
to see his wife. Did that happen?
Yes, it did. That was Michael Schroeder.
Michael Schroeder was working at a another business that was
owned by David called the Mag Bag.
It was, you know, I was basically just a, it was a, an
auto kind of auto repair place. It was a garage.
That's what I'm trying to say. And he was working there, of
course, you know, his wife, and his kids were in in Mount
Carmel. So, which was trying to sneak
back in that evening? And I guess there was, he was
with two other people who are captured.
But for some reason, when Michael was a firefight or at
least they shot him, but the bottom line is, he was his cap
that he had a cap on the cap disappeared.
It wasn't into evidence and he was shot at close range.
He was shot execution-style in the back of the head and the
autopsy report showed that there was no gunpowder residue.
So it couldn't have been. The short range is what they
tried to say, but his cap was missing.
I'm looking for this one. There's always something.
Whenever all these experts, I swear to all these phds that
they all out. I call it piled higher and
deeper as what PhD stands for as far as I'm concerned.
Because all these experts, they just have a much better way of
expressing. How a certain thing could not
have taken place. Yeah, if you're going to take
the guys cap off, of course, there's not going to be gun
residue, you dumbass. Gasps sorry dude.
But again, it's 25 years of this crap, the cover up the that's
been going on here. They take the guys cap on when
they say. Oh, there's no gun residue.
So therefore the ATF could have shot him at close range.
They did shoot him at close range and I am so sick of these
people covering their ass. That's all it is.
Is cover your ass cover, your ass, cover your ass, cover your
ass. You know, these people are
commit, they shot 45 minutes, a bunch of women and children on
the second story of the and that's I can't believe one of
the kids wasn't killed. That's a miracle in itself.
Now, according to what this is, another tactic of smearing other
people. There was like, the babies in
incubators lie in the Gulf War. There was the babies on bayonets
in World War one and Janet Reno has the baby's being beaten,
which according to her testimony.
She later. Redacted, according to the New
York Times was that the ultimate justification Reno having those
words being able to go in on April 19th.
No, I mean, is it a justification?
Maybe for them? Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that's all the head. Well, that's like George Bush,
saying there's weapons of mass destruction weapons of mass
destruction. So we need to go invade Iraq,
you know their wow, you know, it's funny how America was
supposed to be so intelligent and so, I don't know, you know,
she must be so proud of our freedom, how we really like
going to war. That's what it seems like
because we allow people People lie to us and allow an amazing
Force to go in and just wipe out a bunch of friggin Farmers.
That's basically, you know, when we're going into war, the
majority of people were killing us civilians at this point,
especially in something like Iraq, we defeat their military
forces very quickly and then it's just it's just chaos man.
It never it never ends this you know, as long as that we
shouldn't be going to other places killing people, but let's
get back. I'm getting sidetracked.
Let's get back to the point Janet Reno know that, Wasn't a
justification as far as I'm concerned.
The kids weren't being beaten. Some of the kids were spanked
and everyone knows that a lot of religious groups, spare the rod
spoil, the child, and spanking, the children for thousands and
thousands of years. It's a form of punishment.
Personally. I don't spank my kid.
I don't want to terrorize my child and some people grab me,
some people don't, but a spanking is a spanking.
I do, I would say that the kids here were incredibly
well-behaved, you could take him out to They didn't act like
little jerks running all over the place.
They were incredibly well-behaved.
They were good kids. There were happy kids.
They had home schooling. They went to school every day
here. They played together.
They share together. They were, I saw just wonderful
children here. So okay.
I didn't think nothing. Nothing in there was no, I
didn't see any child abuse over that way.
Okay, and I saw the evidence of the way, the parents were
raising the children. And It seemed to work here.
So that being said, the only people that beat the children
was the federal government and they didn't beat the kids.
They gassed, the kids. They use CS gas, which by its
own manufacturer, is a riot control agent.
If you read them in the manufacturer's instructions,
that's a riot control. Agent to only be used Outdoors,
never indoors. Never inside a building CS gas
is Powder. The way that it spreads is
through methylene chloride. The delivery method is
methylene, chloride. Guess what's methylene chloride
is used in paint thinner. Methylene chloride is flammable
folks and that's the delivery method for CS gas.
Now, CS gas is a powder. What happens when you have
subatomic particles floating through the air together.
It causes that. It's it can cause an explosion.
I'll give you an example. A grain silo.
It's the some atomic particles of dust in a grain sauce.
Silo. That can cause it to if it
catches fire to go up like a fireball, it's the same thing
with cs gas. That's why whenever CS gas is
used in the building. There's five or six different
examples. The building catches fire folks
boy again. It's just yeah, you know, I know
a lot of people will probably your audience.
Some of them are younger and probably hearing this for the
first time. I just been saying it for 25
years. It's like it's cool.
The Cs gas. Right control agent only be used
indoors outdoors and they used a two-day supply of Cs gas and six
hours. They were frustrated because of
the high winds and we would open the window.
And a lot of the high winds were blowing, a lot of Cs gas out of
the other window in the chapel are where I was.
I can only speak for my area. I don't know what's going on.
The other area. I can tell you one thing though.
All the women and children were put in a the walk-in cooler,
which had survived the fire in the 50s.
They were all put in there under wet blankets to try to.
It was the only place they had to go, the one, the tanks went
through the building on April 19th.
They blocked off the The Escape that led to the underground bus.
They actually collapse the wall. On top of that, they went
through the, where I was the chapel area and I saw the Tank
come through the front doors and move the doors backwards.
I Can't Describe to your listeners.
What? It's like.
To watch your front door, come at you and have to jump out of
the way because the tank has come through your front door and
moved it into the living area. I can't really describe what
that's like, but I got to tell you, it's absolutely horrifying.
And then they went into the center of the building.
They put a big hole in the center of the building of all
the way back to where the walk-in cooler was and I have
pictures of this at Mount Carmel that I show towards groups that
come here. And so they went all the way
back to where the where the women and children were in the
walk-in cooler. They put a turn in there and
they delivered on a massive amount of Cs gas and actually
the tank driver said that he delivered a massive amount of Cs
gas in the walk-in cooler. That's where the women and kids
were they literally suffocated the kids too.
So CS gas, what's the fire started CS gas?
When it burns off, it burns into cyanide, believe it or not.
You can everyone can look this up for themselves.
If you don't believe me CS gas Burns in the cyanide.
Some of the kids had such a high high tracings of cyanide
poisoning, their bloodstreams that had caused their, their
their muscles to contract and Bo backwards and a couple of the
children autopsy report showed that Not only, let's talk about
the beatings again, you know, who else beat the kids?
The tag, when the tank hit the top of the structure, some of
these huge chunks of concrete fell in on them and crush them
to death. Some of the kids died of blunt
force, trauma. The blunt force trauma is from
chunks of concrete, hitting them.
When the report came out the justice department report came
out, they got on there, they get on the national news and I
remember watching this again on the Nationals and they said our
report will find and the Moments of the Branch Davidian
conflagration, the Davidians beat, and stabbed their children
to death. They said that we beat our kids
to death. That's how they spun.
It SP when they spun it, the spinner.
The the way that they win, the media war is my spin.
We don't Spin and spin is lying when they're spinning something
they're lying to you. So they will get you to agree to
what they're doing. Again.
It's that. It's that the Sir Henry Clay
quote that the denounces it B victims, exciting, the public
hatred so they can conceal their own abuses encroachments.
So they can conceal the evil that they've done to the place
and the people here and they turn it all around and make the
people here look like they're some kind of demons.
Frankly. I'm sick of it.
The people that died at Mount Carmel.
Was some of the best people I've ever known and they just didn't
they didn't deserve the rap that they've had for the last 25
years. So, you know what?
Yep. I'm sick of it.
These people. Get away with it.
Is time for them to go to jail. If not, if they're not gonna go
to jail. They need to live with your
conscience and they need to know what they did.
You killed you gassed and killed a bunch of kids way to go
Federal forces way to go you tough guys.
You guys have claimed that you're there to save people.
You guessed a bunch of kids to death of.
You're blaming it on us. I'm sick of it.
Shame on you. They're okay.
I'm good. I'm off my soapbox know.
Yeah. Well, Bill Clinton said Reno
shouldn't resign just because some Some religious Fanatics
decided to murder themselves. Yeah.
I'm I want you to go through some of the propaganda used to
dehumanize, the Branch Davidians II know you got into it there
but is that the extent of it? Oh, no, they changed the wording
completely, you know, there's was that I was watching
recently. Oh, I just watched the movie
Vice about Dick Cheney, which is very interesting because they
did the same thing with them global warming.
They call it climate change instead of global warming
because climate change sounds better, you know, these are kind
of things. These words that are in our
vernacular. Now used over and over by the
media. On purpose, the directly use
this so they can spin things in our case.
It wasn't a tank that was going through the front door, but it
was a CV because the tanks had to It's taken off and it was a
cev. Well, guess what?
Right here at Mount Carmel. You guys come check out Mount
Carmel someday. I have a picture of a tank, a
Bradley Fighting Vehicle with the turn on it in front of the
burning building. So there were tanks here again.
Just another lie. So the tank was the cev, instead
of a sniper. They didn't have a sniper to
sniper position, but he was a forward Observer.
So they call the sniper forward Observer.
What are some of the other ones? Of course, Firearms, your
weapons. If it suits him, if it's had
some on the other side of their firearms.
One of my favorites is when they throw a flashbang grenade in a
flashbang. Grenade.
Doesn't explode. Okay, it performs a rapid
expansion of gases. That's what they call an
explosion. In other words, pyrotechnic
device. It doesn't explode, but it
performs a rapid expansion of gases.
That's literally how ridiculous it gets.
Goes on and on. Now, in the show.
They say that you married. David's wife.
Did that happen? It actually didn't happen.
I'm pretty on the book. I talk about this pretty
succinctly. It was kind of mentioned.
That we should get married to try to kind of keep the forces
at Bay for a little while longer, while he was working on
some stuff. And who asked, frankly, you
know, Dave was very, very deep individual and I learned a lot
of things from him. I learned the Seven Seals from
him, but that's the one thing in my two years of knowing the guy
that he asked me to do that. I never felt right about and I
did it just because it was my group.
I want to protect the group and I want to protect Michelle and
serenity. So yeah, we said we were married
but we didn't have the wasn't actually Yeah, they call it.
There wasn't a ceremony. Yep.
There wasn't a ceremony. It was nothing.
Like it was in the film and the film that made, it was this big
ceremony and we had, you know, we had parties like that where
everyone got together and dance, but it wasn't the sir.
I wasn't like a wedding ceremony or anything like that, but it's
just kind of how it worked out and was that because she was
underage when he was first with her.
Yes. Okay.
There is a really interesting part in the Documentary, where
the lawyers actually come in and they say, look at that door.
Look at that ceiling. You guys have a great case, talk
to me about what it was. Like when the lawyers came into
the compound during this 51-day Siege.
Well, for me is actually very exciting to have people that, I
guess our representatives of the system, even though they're your
defense attorneys. They're still, we are Ward's of
the Court there, still people that are I guess, look, highly
upon There are testimonies, especially zags, Jack's
Zimmerman. Who was a he was a, he was a
veteran. He was a veteran.
I'm not sure. I can't remember what brand she
was in. But you know, these people saw
the evidence is that we had been talking about.
They were able to cooperate that with us.
That was great. I remember feeling feeling very
hopeful that they had come in and I'm surprised actually that
more wasn't done. I am at that point.
I wish David would have listened to them and said, okay, we got a
good case. We should take it, take it
there, and I'm really hard on. Government did did here because
yes, they gasp kids and they blame it on us.
They're the ones against the kids.
But you know what? I in doing the research for my
book and being an honest, rational thoughtful individual,
I have to say David koresh made some mistakes.
He made some mistakes along the way.
Absolutely. I think at the point that the
attorneys came in. He should have considered going
out more. I know that he wanted to wait
until the Seven Seals were written down.
I get that and that's a plan that came after the attorneys
and come in. In but I felt very hopeful with
the attorneys testimony and telling us that we had a pretty
good case that we should go that route.
And I think I think Steve did as well.
Anyway, David chose not to go that route.
I wish he would have I consider that a mistake on his part
frankly. Now when I watch Rules of
Engagement, they said that the front door of the compound that
was brought into evidence is still missing.
Is that true? Yeah.
Oh, yeah, there's two double doors.
And there were metal doors. The one with the most bullet
wounds coming from the outside in.
And you could see clearly that there was that all those bullets
were coming from the outside. And that's one of the things
dick deguerin testified to I think at the Congressional
hearings. They were asked for those doors
or knows. I'm sorry, excuse me.
No. Yawning early morning on the two
doors. One of them was entered into
evidence and the other one was Isn't and when they were, they
were asked where that second door, was.
That was the door that all the bullet holes in it.
The FBI said, oh, that must have disintegrated in the fire, a
metal door. Its twin door.
Was there entered into evidence? The other door wasn't so it it
didn't disintegrate. The fire.
It was hidden. It was, you know, I always think
of that scene. I always think about her.
Sorry, guys. Can you still hear me?
Yes, I can. Sorry.
I had a call coming. I was thinking Scene in Raiders
of the Lost Ark that last scene where they're taking the Ark of
the Covenant, put it in some big Warehouse in the middle of
nowhere, you know, some giant huge government Warehouse.
That's probably not the case, but that's just the kind of a
funny little visual. So yeah, you know, I mean, I'd
love to go to that warehouse where all this stuff is hidden.
But yeah, definitely I think they yeah, they hit it that that
door didn't disintegrate in a fire is ridiculous.
Yeah, because as the guy was saying in Rules of Engagement,
if that's where the shooting started.
And there's He's only shooting going in.
Well, then that's pretty much against their case, and it made
it seem like, that's what the lawyers were saying in the show.
Yes. Now, one thing that I learned in
this is that 23 people actually left the compound during The
Siege. Another words far from being
held down against their will. There were 23 people who left
now, if I'm looking at this as an observer, I say, okay, right.
Or wrong ATF. It doesn't matter.
Just come out. And this could have ended
peacefully, how do you respond to people who say that?
Jamie just come out or yes. Some people did come out during
the Seas. Like you said Cromwell that is
what other people people would be coming out and then they
would put the pressure on. Okay now we got some, let's get
them all. Bring them all out an hour or
there's going to be a consequence and our attitude was
like, listen people are coming out, negotiating's are going
harmoniously. Why are you putting the pressure
for everyone to come on? Not everyone's going to come out
now and you're scaring us and then they'll be like a will show
you and the tanks. One of the property and run over
one of the vehicles or they would tip over the 500 gallon
gas tanks that we had on tripods near the building.
They would tip those override sit there and watched the fuel
pour out onto the ground. Next to the building.
I saw that happen. So it's just amazing.
I mean, this is this their forces that every time, things
will go harmoniously, they would put pressure on and that would
cause a mistrust and people would back off.
People didn't want to go out to that.
Nobody. Want to go out that that kind of
aggression, you know, the agents would sit on the tanks and moon
us and they would give us the finger and moon us.
And these are the kind of forces that are asking us to come out.
No. It's just, it's ridiculous.
And it's something that people understand every day during the
scenes. There was a There was a press
conference and during the press conference has, sorry.
I need to drink water during the press conference has the
government would be like, oh, the cult this, the cult that
David koresh is just Bible Babble and God's talking, all
they did was demonize the people inside instead of saying, oh, we
had a really, you know, really good conversation with David and
treating him as a person. Treating the people, there's
people, they kept calling us, this called, this cult is
called, that's called, that's called, that's called over and
over, and over. So it's like they're just
painting the picture for the American public.
They want to paint while trying to tell us that they have our
best interests. Can you imagine that their town,
you imagine someone telling you that they really want to help
you and they want to make sure all you guys get out.
Okay, and that, you know, they're here to help you.
And then that same person goes, it doesn't press conferences.
All these, these cult members, and they're really being
unreasonable. They're saying, oh you guys are
just come out. We really want to help you.
Hey, these this cult here these Guys are a cult and this cult on
the cult and the divinium call him David crush, the co-leader
over and over and over again. So, they would say one thing to
us, and then they would say the on Direct opposite or another,
think the American public that one on, for 51 days.
Guess what? Guys that's going to cause a
massive amount of distrust. Let me give you a bottom line.
Okay, if you don't mind, I think.
I got to be careful here. No one wants to look at it this
way, but I'm going to throw it out there.
I think that spiritual things took place here and everything.
David said was going to happen came to pass.
Now. He told he said to me, six
months before this raid and this is member.
This is 93 tanks and helicopters had never been used against
American citizens before my father.
As a history teacher retired. So history has been in my life.
I have studied the Constitution. I have studied the the
Revolutionary War, the Civil War, the causes thus for both
Vietnam World War One, World War Two.
I'm pretty good understanding of this stuff.
Even at a young age. I was on a roof with David and
he said, what are you gonna do tips when their tanks running up
and down the W Ranch Road? I said David, I don't care what
you're doing or what you think you're doing or how bad you
think you are. Or what the government the big
bad government is going to come in on us because you're teaching
the Seven Seals. And that's the way that he
looked at it but because he was teaching the Seven Seals.
The message will be fought against and destroyed.
I said, they're never going to use tanks on this property again
citizens. Six months later.
I'm watching. Tanks, go up and down the W
Ranch Road. He told Kathy Schroeder.
Kathy. What are you gonna do?
When? There's helicopters buzzing the
building? Kathy Schroeder said the same
thing. Dave, they are never going to
use helicopters against this group of people.
It's not how it's done here in America.
Six months later. There are helicopters, buzzing
the building. As a matter of fact.
The worst case of my PTSD was after everything happened.
I got back to me and I would hear a helicopter.
And next thing I know I would wake up and I would be under the
bed. Every time I heard a helicopter.
I would kind of blackout and I would open my eyes and I would
be under the bed. So for some reason that was the
triggering thing was a helicopter helicopter.
Always made me hit the floor and look for cover.
That was just a very weird reaction, but it happened to me
a couple times before I get used to the fact that okay.
That's just a civilian helicopter, and I'm not in a war
zone anymore. Yeah, so your question.
Absolutely absolutely. So I didn't notice that I'm
going on for these tangents that I don't know if I'm actually
answering your questions. Well, yeah.
So, um, I have a source that says after the fire and ATF
agent put the ATF flag on the Branch Davidian.
Pull did that happen? Yeah, but it wasn't just the ATF
flag. It was the ATF flag and then
above that. As the Texas state flag and
above. That was the American flags.
They put three flags on the pole.
Like he'll they'd want a war. Yes.
So, here is episode 5 of the of the Waco show.
Now, you're watching it. And you're like, okay, if you
didn't have any history, why are they obsessing over these
people? All right.
There was a firefight that, but whatever, just move on.
Why are you spending all this time?
And all this energy and here's and money.
Yeah. And here's what.
Here's what the show says. The FBI agent goes five thousand
to On those are the odds against us. 5,000 people to everyone
officer of the law. You know, how we keep order with
those eyes because people believe we're more powerful than
we are. We project strength and the
people believe in that strength, when we sit outside a place like
this for weeks on end, waiting for them to Tire.
We look weak in front of the west of the world and every a
hole with a bomb kit, starts getting ideas.
This is more than a situation. Now, Gary.
This is a symbol. Are we the kind of agency that
cottle's Cop killers. Do you think that is the
mentality that was included into them which allowed them to
justify the atrocities that took place at Mount Carmel.
Certainly sounds, right. I mean, it has a ring of truth.
I hear certain things that has that ring of Truth or that or
that flat sound that rings to be not true.
That has a ring of truth to it to me.
Yes. It wasn't for sure.
No, I don't know for sure. But the attitude that I get from
these guys, is a lot of them were very good.
Football players in college. That didn't make the pros in a
really pissed off about it. They're just a bunch of Macho
guys that want to use their toys and they got an excuse and
they're taking a going to take full advantage of it.
That was the attitude when you're on a tank and you know,
there's a bunch of women and a bunch of old ladies and a bunch
of kids in the building. And you pull your pants down,
spread your butt cheeks apart. That's the kind of mentality,
you know, man. That's not a professional.
That's not professional guys. You're the FBI and I don't care.
If you're the leader of the FBI or a hostage Rescue Team, guy or
negotiator. There's a certain amount of
professionalism and probably mooning a bunch of kids and
giving him the fingers and the most professional thing you can
do. You look like a disgruntled
College. You look like an idiot when you
do crap, like that. And you need to be called on it.
So here, I'm going to call you. I saw it.
I'll call you on it. You did it, you guys?
Yeah, it just makes me crazy. These are the forces.
These are the people that we look to.
And that's the thing. You know, the FBI, they're good
at what they do when it comes to getting bank robbers.
And, you know, they have protected the American people on
many occasions from some disasters that could have taken
place. So it's not like they're not
good at their job. Jobs, but they're really good at
their jobs. So when little brother screws
up, big brother knows how to use the words to justify the actions
of little brother and I think that's kind of what has happened
here. Sure.
Um, yeah, I just thought that was an interesting insight into
the mindset of, oh, that's what the average that's what's going
through their minds. Because it's rough to, you know,
sympathize with, you know, with them during this thing.
What were your overall? Thoughts during the
negotiations. Were you happy?
Did you think one side was getting wrong?
Did you think they were stubborn?
People? Did you think there was a really
good thing that could have happened but didn't follow
through. What were your general thoughts
during the negotiations? Yeah, there were times of
negotiators. Negotiations were going.
Well. I think that we worked well with
Gary and maybe I think there's one or two other negotiators.
That David actually liked but they would often they would Take
like I said there would take them off and put someone else on
you. No didn't work.
So well with David or maybe it was more confrontational and
they were trying different things and I wondered why they
would I always wonder why would they do that?
Why would they take the person? That was working?
Well with us off the case, unless they wanted the place,
the outcome that they ended up getting, which is Place burning
to the ground. Let's face it.
The government benefited from the place, burning to the
ground. I'm sorry, but they benefited
from it all the Wounds in the ceiling from the helicopters,
the bullet holes in the doors and you know, who's not to say
that this evidence wouldn't have still disappeared.
The problem will still disappeared even if the place
had stood, but it would have been better for us at the place,
stood. At a definitely benefited the
government for the place not standing and burning to the
ground. So, I mean, you know, I think
that's true. That's a true statement.
Absolutely. Now, here is from episode 6 of
the series of Radio broadcasters as the FBI and branch.
And each claim the other started the fire, and we may never know
the truth. Now, before that Bill Clinton is
the one that was him, who said, just because some religious
Fanatics decided to murder themselves, Reno should not
resign the guy in the show. Then says we may never know the
truth. So instead let's talk about what
we do, know fact, Fresno, California 1973, a standoff with
law enforcement ends, when tear gas turns to fire killing those
inside fact, Los Angeles. For standoff between SLA and law
enforcement ends, when tear gas turns to fire killing those
inside West Fork. AR Arkansas, 1981 a standoff.
Tear gas fire, Death 1983, Smithfield, Arkansas. 1985,
Philadelphia, 1987's. Ganado, California, all of them,
standoff tear gas, fire Death. The FBI knows this and get made
no plan to put out the fire. If it started, you think that
everyone inside Ed was murdered intentionally.
Murdered intentionally. Okay, that's Wow, yes or no.
Here's why I say that. I don't think that every FBI
agent one of the outcome of what happened at Mount Carmel.
I think I think a lot of the agents on the ground had no idea
what was going on. I think the agents on the
ground, didn't know what CS gas to do a building if it was used
inside. I could tell by the two FBI
agents that I came in contact with After exiting the building.
Doing when the place is burning. And they're looking frantic and
scared. And I see the fear in their eyes
from the place burning and the the kids literally dying that
they were horrified by that. I saw that.
So, you know, I don't think that that that's the outcome that
they wanted but I think that the people that were making the
decisions that they knew what was going to happen.
Why else would you put the huge holes in the building causing an
oxygen flow system? But wrecking the building and
having the tanks go through. They, that's what they did.
They, that building was ready to go up like a, like a pot-bellied
stove is some of the analogies that have been used.
The amount of Cs gas, use awesome.
Why would they have peritectic devices in their period?
There were four pyrotechnic devices that were found if you
don't want that building to go up.
Why would you what's the word invite the controversy by having
Pirates? Devices in the round.
As a matter of fact, they denied it for years.
And then finally they had to say.
Oh, yeah. Well, we did have pyrotechnic
devices in there. But the Branch Davidian still
started the fire. Let's talk about one more thing
to let's talk about the audiotapes of the people saying.
Spread the fire like this, put some there, put some there.
Do that. You've heard this.
Most people have heard, this has been on was featured on the NPR
documentary about Ruby about Oklahoma City.
And that's when they brought that in.
I don't that just blows my mind because when I they played those
tapes for me when I was sitting before the grand jury, and I
couldn't tell what was being said and then they gave me
something that they typed down that said, Start the Fire do
this through to put some here and there trying to tell me
that, that's what's being said on the tapes and I'm like,
that's not what I heard. I heard cut the power, not like
the fire when I listened to the tape.
In the headphones, they're playing it for and then they
would say well, why would they see cook the power and I'd say I
don't know maybe because the Jenners did the generators.
I don't know. But that's what I hear.
Now. Here's what troubles me about to
take. The FBI says that those tapes
were taking at 6 a.m. The day of the fire that those
recordings where they're saying spread some here.
Put some here are taken at 6:00 a.m.
If those tapes were taking the 6 a.m.
And why did the fire not start till six hours later?
12:00. So in the fire starter people
inside set that fire and those tapes prove that they set the
fire, then why did it take six hours from the fire to start
number one and they are. This is their own.
I mean, this is the FBI had never said.
Those tapes are taken at 6 a.m. I think their case would have
been more compelling but they said they say the tapes were
taken at 6 a.m. And then when they're asked,
well if you knew that the Davidians were spreading fuel.
Why did you go forward with the raid?
And then they said, we didn't know that we couldn't hear what
was being said, until we got the tapes back to our labs and
Virginia and scrubbed them. The FBI terms scrubbed.
They had to scrub the tapes to find out what was being said.
Now, if anyone has seen, there's movie that I think it's really
good. It's called Primal colors the
world, John Travolta, and it's Loosely based on the Clinton
campaign. There's a scene in there where
Basically, through audio manipulation.
They make Larry King. Sounds like he's hitting on
hitting on a woman when he's just ordering a, when he's
getting one. He's just calling.
And getting a reservation. It's an interesting scene
because it shows how easily audio tapes and cell phone
Communications can be manipulated.
And that was back in the 90s that this movie came out.
I believe was the 90s. So that was before all the kind
of Technology. We have.
Today is very easy to manipulate phone conversations and
recordings and things like that. My accusing them of that.
No, I think that it's entirely possible.
However, I don't know for sure if that's what they did.
But they did say that they had to take their tapes, back to the
lab in the scrub them. That's their words, not mine.
So I think it's definitely important to get this message
out. And as you said, it's been a
rough 20-something years doing it.
I'm curious, you talk. I don't want to know if it's
not. I'm not sure if I should have it
coming from you, but I'm the average person does think ATF
just went in just walked in you guys started shooting.
There was a 51-day standoff and then when they came in, you
said, you know what? Before they get us, we're going
to light ourselves on fire. That's that is the general
consensus. What is your elevator pitch to
someone? Who has that idea?
And you want them to think differently about what happened?
Just look at the facts, man. All you gotta do is do a little
research, find out, if half of think about it, half of the
things I've said in this interview a true, you guys
should be scared out of your mind, you know, you guys should
really review the way, the things that you're that you That
the media to the things you believe from your press and from
your news agencies. You should be terrified because
you know what? You are being lied to hunt a
daily basis. And if you don't see that, then
you kind of deserve what you get, because you're living in
your ignorance, everything. I say to you, everything I've
presented. I believe to be true, 100%
everything I presented. I present because I have
pictures. I have the Audio.
I thought about it. I've seen the things.
They say and I know what the truth is because I was there.
I'm not sick. Look, I'm not getting rich doing
this guys. This is that I would much rather
be playing drums with ab and then doing this and having to
talk about this. But I am just I got to tell you
the older I get and the more these documentaries that I come
up that I see on TV that don't get the story, right?
It makes me crazy when I see that a and a documentary and
it's really good. They're interviewing David
koresh's Stepbrother. And he's talking about, you
know, they're interviewing people that were involved and
I'm like, oh my God, they're really getting the other side
here and then they get to the end.
And at the end they say, well, it's too bad.
The people set the place on fire.
They're still, oh my God, they're pretending to be
unbiased but they're not, they're not talking about the
fully automatic weapons. Fire at the back of the building
people being shot trying to escape.
They're not talking about the explosions.
We have on infrared video tape from the sources of one of the
fires at the back of the building.
Don't mention that. What they say is the people
inside started the fire and it goes on and on, and on, and
they're just not talking about the other side of, they're not
talking about the reality of what really happened, and just
blows my mind. It's it doesn't end to this day.
They're putting up till communication.
You know, it's really funny. I'm not actually that you
brought that up. I was thinking the other day
about Byron Sage, who was it? Who was interviewed in that
documentary? And he said, you know that there
were during the fire. I don't understand why those
people didn't bring out the children.
One of the people brought out a dog, but not his own daughter
who died in the fire. That was very, that's just
malicious and unfair. He's talking about Clive Doyle.
Now, Clyde goes from the nicest, man.
You'll ever meet in your life. Climbed all came out of the same
hole. I did.
He's in the same area of the building.
I was in his daughter was in the other, are in the building the
tanks, destroyed, any kind of Avenue of him getting to Cherry
or me getting the serenity because I tried to and the tanks
and Right. There was no way to get down the
hallway. It was impossible.
You couldn't do it. A dog, followed Clive Doyle out
of the building and out of the fire.
Clive didn't bring the dog out of the fire.
The dog was smart enough to get out and follow them and then
Byron's Sage to say that why didn't know one bring out any
children, you know, why Byron because you took a tank into the
front of the building and you gasps them to death.
You passed them to death, you gasps, those kids to death,
shame on you. Your Everlasting contempt to sit
there and lie to the American public the way you Did the kids
didn't come out because they couldn't, you guess them to
death my friend and you blame us for it.
Shame on. You Byron Sage.
Oh, and incidentally, we have two pictures hanging up right
now in the sanctuary here that show Byron Sage coming out and
posing for a picture while the buildings burning in the
background. Not one.
He said on National Television. Once I wasn't posing for a
trophy picture, I came out and someone took that picture.
He was very offended that someone will call him on it.
I guess what we don't have one, but we have two pictures.
We have a picture of the place. Burnt starting, I would say
maybe five minutes in 10 minutes into the burn, and then we have
another picture of him posing in a different area where the with
a building in the background, totally burnt to the ground so
he didn't pose once but twice and then he's going to sit there
and lie to me in light of the American public and say that he
didn't pose for a picture. You want to play that game
buddy. We got the evidence.
You come to Mount Carmel. You can see it for yourself.
I'm sick of them, lying. So, the American public just
lying and then, you know, calling me a liar.
Whatever. Dude, you can say what you want.
I got the truth on my side. I can live with myself buyer and
Sage, all you hostage Rescue Team guys, you tough guys.
I don't know how you can live with yourselves killing a bunch
of kids, killing women and children.
Whatever. I can I can look myself in the
mirror. Shame on you again.
David's book is Waco. A survivor's Story by David
Thibodeau. Last name spelled th ibe d.e.a.
You. I got to its Bo D.
Thi Bo D, Tau, B, 0 D, Tau, I'm sorry.
It's called. So to softballs for you.
Who is your favorite drummer of all time?
Whoo, I 3 i 4. Yeah, I okay.
I got did somebody Rich Neil Peart John Bonham and Akira
Jimbo probably not in that order.
But whatever. They're all pretty amazing.
Have you seen Neil Peart live? Oh, yes twice as phenomenal and
I somebody Rich before he died, too.
Yeah. Absolutely.
Incredible. And what is your favorite Bible
verse? Wow, dude, that's okay.
I wasn't prepared for that. My favorite Bible verse, okay.
I'm not going to be able to quote the source.
Yeah, I could, if I thought about it.
There's a, I have a favorite verse about.
The day will come when the children of God will be able to
come to the Waters of life and they will be able to drink
freely. And then that day when you can
drink from the Waters of Life freely.
It says God will take out your Stony heart and it will give you
a heart of Flesh. And it says, once you have the
heart of Flesh, you will weep for the person.
You were in the sight of God during your lifetime.
And you will weeping, you will mourn like someone morning their
only child for what a sitz. I'm paraphrasing here for what a
scumbag. You were in the sight of God
just being a sinner and it says you will mourn so much.
You won't even want to be called by your name and I will give you
a new name in that day. And that day, you will have a
new name and you will have a new heart and you'll be a new person
and you'll be like, I said, I'm paraphrasing, but you'll be my
son. I'll be your father.
Everything will be great. You'll be made new and it says
it will be in pot as it's my favorite scripture.
It'll be as impossible for you to sit in that.
Each day as it is for you to do righteousness.
Now and I think that's pretty awesome.
God's basically saying you're going to screw up, you're a
sinner, you're a scumbag and there's nothing you can do about
it. And there will come the day when
I will make you deal when you won't be able to sin, and will
be as impossible for you to send as it is for you to do
righteousness. Now, and I think that justifies
all of mankind. I think that's just an amazing
scripture. I think it's Jeremiah.
I'll have to look it up. Have you met?
But I promise is the final one. Have you ever heard someone as
good as let me turn my AC off. Give me just one second.
Okay? Just want to let you know, you
can find Waco, a Survivor Story by David Thibodeau in the link
below in the description. Either them to Amazon.
So, have you ever met someone as good as David at conveying the
message? No, never never.
Actually, I'm glad you brought that up because I was super
hyper aware of people that were teaching scripture, all the TV
preachers, I would Stem, as a kid.
And wonder why people didn't see through them.
I would watch them as a kid and go, how could people send these
guys their money. That's just so fake.
And again, I hope I'm not offending.
People would have sent money to TV preachers, but to be
interesting, very, very fake. When I were first moved to
Hollywood. I would pass my went to music
school out there in the Scientology building was right
on the corner of my school and I would pass by every day and they
go free personality test for a test.
Would you like a free? Test and was God, I won't I'll
never forget him and I'd be like, no, I don't have a
personality pal. You know, we got Snappy little
things, we would say to them and I just always saw through it.
A bunch of people showed up with, you know, like all the
girls had the same skirts on, on the boys had the same shirts on
and the same pants and I'm just like, wow, that's just.
That's, you know, that's some kind of sect.
I don't like to use the word help.
But the point is, I was hyper sensitive because I didn't want
to get involved in a cult or a group or religious.
And even the Hari krishna's anything, you know, any of those
groups. I just I didn't that wasn't my
thing. And so what I meant David and
Steve at Guitar Center on Sunset Boulevard after we talked a
little bit, they just said that they had some knowledge about
the scripture. They didn't preach to me.
They had ripped the Bible part from Genesis to Revelation.
They really knew something about it.
They treated it as a study and to me that's what was
fascinating. They weren't saying just believe
this or just believe that or you have To believe me.
It's like what does it say? They just approached it
differently, and I thought that was interesting.
So, and they actually interviewed a bunch of my
friends went all of this first happened and they said, so did
you ever see David David Thibodeau and a kalter in the
group like this? And just about every one of the
people that they interviewed that knew me said, Dave
Thibodeau is the last person I ever saw ending up in a group
like this. And that's kind of true.
You know, they like to make it sound like, oh, you're we were
sheep and We had to be led and we were looking for a strong
leader. That's may be the case in a few
of the people, but certainly not the majority.
When Martin was a harvard-educated attorney, Steve
Schneider top comparative, religions the University of
Hawaii, you know, there were other people.
Most of the people that I knew here, were very, very
intelligent. Let me just put it that way and
they didn't, they were not sheeple at all.
Well, David, thank you so much for taking the time today.
I really appreciate it. And thank you to everyone else
for watching. Thanks, buddy.
Appreciate it, man. Take care.