1
00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:03,360
Welcome to Keith and I don't 
tread on anyone in the 

2
00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:04,960
Libertarian Institute. 
Today. 

3
00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:09,400
I am joined by Jack Lloyd, 
author of the You guys Got to 

4
00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,000
read these books. 
This is a great intro into our 

5
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:14,360
ideas. 
He just came out with the 

6
00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:16,920
trilogy we have libertarian 
volunteerism. 

7
00:00:17,080 --> 00:00:20,960
The third one is a vision for a 
libertarian future and the one 

8
00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,160
in the middle philosophical 
volunteerism. 

9
00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:28,000
This goes through a number of 
logical fallacies that people 

10
00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:31,960
it's on page 36. 
If I I might have to just 

11
00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:36,360
disrespect his IP altogether and
make a video just on the 36 page

12
00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,680
because it's so vitally 
important just to get these in 

13
00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,520
the back of your mind. 
So anytime you come across them,

14
00:00:42,520 --> 00:00:45,200
not that you can call them out 
because that's like so nerdy, 

15
00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:48,680
but the point is to see through 
them and not get manipulated. 

16
00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,960
It's really difficult sometimes 
when we're like, well, if we 

17
00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:54,720
work hard, eventually we could 
have a stateless society. 

18
00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:59,270
OK, maybe in the meantime we can
at least see the world clearly. 

19
00:00:59,390 --> 00:01:02,870
And that's why I wanted to 
invite the author, Jack, on to 

20
00:01:03,070 --> 00:01:04,709
the show. 
You can find him at 

21
00:01:04,989 --> 00:01:08,910
volcomic.com. 
Oh, Eve, what did I do here? 

22
00:01:09,190 --> 00:01:12,150
Vol comic.com. 
You can also check him out at 

23
00:01:12,190 --> 00:01:16,030
jackvlloyd.com. 
Jack, thank you so much for 

24
00:01:16,030 --> 00:01:18,830
coming on, man. 
Keith, it's it's my pleasure. 

25
00:01:18,830 --> 00:01:21,550
It's been a long time coming. 
I've seen you in so many places,

26
00:01:21,550 --> 00:01:25,910
so many states, and now we're 
here, so here we have the 

27
00:01:26,070 --> 00:01:29,070
voluntarist comic. 
Before getting into the content 

28
00:01:29,070 --> 00:01:33,430
of these books and what you do 
in the Freedom sphere, what is 

29
00:01:33,430 --> 00:01:38,110
it that comics provide when it 
comes to sharing our ideas that 

30
00:01:38,110 --> 00:01:41,910
is not easily achievable through
sharing empirical evidence or 

31
00:01:41,910 --> 00:01:44,690
deontological arguments? 
Sure. 

32
00:01:44,690 --> 00:01:47,970
So my comic book series 
Voluntarist isn't really like a 

33
00:01:47,970 --> 00:01:50,290
Jack Chick track. 
It's not a a preachy thing. 

34
00:01:50,290 --> 00:01:52,650
It's not meant to be like, oh, 
here's what voluntarism is, 

35
00:01:52,850 --> 00:01:54,770
although some people have done 
that. 

36
00:01:54,770 --> 00:01:57,330
Actually, I would say this book,
Beyond the Government Haunted 

37
00:01:57,330 --> 00:02:01,610
World by Xander Mars does do a 
preachy form, you know, using 

38
00:02:01,610 --> 00:02:05,090
the the, the comic form. 
But no, my comic book series 

39
00:02:05,090 --> 00:02:07,690
here is is actually more of a 
narrative where it just flips. 

40
00:02:08,139 --> 00:02:10,780
The status norms that are used 
to seeing in all the comic book 

41
00:02:10,780 --> 00:02:13,900
series on its head where 
everywhere and you know pretty 

42
00:02:13,900 --> 00:02:17,420
much every medium you can 
imagine DC, Marvel, Image, you 

43
00:02:17,420 --> 00:02:20,540
know a dark horse, whatever. 
They always are going to say 

44
00:02:20,540 --> 00:02:24,220
that the state is either 
necessary or inevitable or just 

45
00:02:24,220 --> 00:02:25,700
a few bad apples, right, That 
kind of thing. 

46
00:02:25,700 --> 00:02:30,020
So through the comic medium, I 
challenge that norm and make 

47
00:02:30,020 --> 00:02:33,260
government not the default 
ethical norm and treated as 

48
00:02:33,260 --> 00:02:35,420
such. 
And I think that that ties into,

49
00:02:35,460 --> 00:02:37,340
you know answer your question 
here with the idea of. 

50
00:02:37,890 --> 00:02:41,530
Using fiction or stories to help
people get a picture of what it 

51
00:02:41,530 --> 00:02:45,730
is that we are thinking about 
and desiring in a freer future. 

52
00:02:46,010 --> 00:02:48,570
And I think that there's many 
great examples of this. 

53
00:02:48,570 --> 00:02:51,410
You know, using parables or 
stories or entertainment to get 

54
00:02:51,410 --> 00:02:53,850
people to think about ideas. 
And I think one of the most 

55
00:02:53,850 --> 00:02:56,210
successful people probably in 
our space who's ever done that 

56
00:02:56,210 --> 00:02:59,370
would be I ran, of course, you 
know, doing Atlas Shrugged and, 

57
00:02:59,370 --> 00:03:00,570
you know, Fountainhead and so on
and so forth. 

58
00:03:00,570 --> 00:03:03,770
So I think that there's a great 
value to using fiction to 

59
00:03:03,770 --> 00:03:06,610
inspire reality. 
I think sometimes it's easier 

60
00:03:06,610 --> 00:03:10,250
for people to hear about ideas 
through a story and for that to 

61
00:03:10,250 --> 00:03:12,530
get them to think about, you 
know, their own lives and 

62
00:03:12,530 --> 00:03:14,850
reflecting kind of, you know, 
how a mirror to themselves. 

63
00:03:15,170 --> 00:03:17,810
So that's kind of what I do with
that comic book series is I I 

64
00:03:17,810 --> 00:03:20,330
really have a a story. 
It's like a regular comic book 

65
00:03:20,330 --> 00:03:22,850
superhero story in many ways. 
But there are some key 

66
00:03:22,850 --> 00:03:25,970
differences and points of 
intrigue that do involve deep 

67
00:03:25,970 --> 00:03:28,090
philosophical questions about 
what it means to be really free.

68
00:03:29,170 --> 00:03:31,010
Excellent. 
Check that out in the 

69
00:03:31,090 --> 00:03:34,170
description below. 
Want to get into the contents of

70
00:03:34,250 --> 00:03:36,810
this book? 
What is the myth of the rule of 

71
00:03:36,810 --> 00:03:41,010
law and why does it matter? 
Oh, the myth of the rule of law,

72
00:03:41,130 --> 00:03:43,570
you're saying by John Hasnes, 
correct? 

73
00:03:44,310 --> 00:03:46,670
Yeah. 
So John Hasness, he's definitely

74
00:03:46,670 --> 00:03:48,630
one of my favorites. 
You know, he was one of the 

75
00:03:48,630 --> 00:03:51,710
people who definitely helped 
refine my thinking and push me 

76
00:03:51,710 --> 00:03:54,910
down the path of voluntarism, 
especially thinking about the 

77
00:03:54,910 --> 00:03:59,310
status legal systems. 
So he's a Georgetown associate 

78
00:03:59,310 --> 00:04:01,990
professor of law. 
And so, you know, obviously he 

79
00:04:01,990 --> 00:04:04,030
has some St. cred there, you 
know, to his name when he 

80
00:04:04,030 --> 00:04:05,470
discussed this. 
But he had a Michigan Law Review

81
00:04:05,470 --> 00:04:08,910
article called The Myth The Rule
of Law, and he breaks down many 

82
00:04:08,910 --> 00:04:12,150
of the common, I guess you could
say incorrect framings people 

83
00:04:12,150 --> 00:04:15,670
have about what? 
The rule of law is, and he helps

84
00:04:15,670 --> 00:04:18,950
people see that no matter what 
aspect the law you think is 

85
00:04:18,950 --> 00:04:22,990
fixed or firm, in reality the 
law is just a bunch of opinions 

86
00:04:22,990 --> 00:04:25,710
of human beings who often 
actually disagree with each 

87
00:04:25,710 --> 00:04:28,270
other, right? 
They you could get justices at 

88
00:04:28,270 --> 00:04:31,510
the Supreme Court, all Ivy 
League educated top tier schools

89
00:04:31,510 --> 00:04:33,310
right? 
And you have a 5 four opinion. 

90
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,000
And they're conflicting over 
over what it is that is supposed

91
00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,000
to be the law. 
So how is it that this is so 

92
00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,160
objective and it's it's so, you 
know, accurate and easily 

93
00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,400
understood by everybody, yet you
have the supposedly top tier 

94
00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,080
scholars disagree about what it 
is. 

95
00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,040
So what he points to is that 
it's really about finality. 

96
00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:55,680
In other words, people are more 
so just wanting to have. 

97
00:04:56,290 --> 00:04:58,130
A sense of OK, this is just a 
final judgement. 

98
00:04:58,130 --> 00:05:00,970
There isn't really as much a 
rule of law as much would like 

99
00:05:00,970 --> 00:05:04,210
to have that in terms of just 
having consistency and integrity

100
00:05:04,210 --> 00:05:06,610
and honesty. 
Unfortunately, you're often at 

101
00:05:06,610 --> 00:05:09,690
the the whims of which judge you
got, you know, on on the bench 

102
00:05:09,690 --> 00:05:11,970
depending on your case and 
what's going on. 

103
00:05:11,970 --> 00:05:14,530
I certainly experienced that 
when I used to practice a 

104
00:05:14,530 --> 00:05:17,490
criminal defense. 
One of the judges went on a 

105
00:05:17,490 --> 00:05:20,410
vacation and I got this nice 
rotation of like 12 different 

106
00:05:20,410 --> 00:05:22,540
judges. 
Who were substituting in while 

107
00:05:22,540 --> 00:05:25,180
she was on vacation in the 
juvenile court. 

108
00:05:25,460 --> 00:05:29,300
And I saw really quickly and 
directly all the different 

109
00:05:29,300 --> 00:05:31,780
flavors of judges within this 
one court venue, within this one

110
00:05:31,780 --> 00:05:34,700
context of who is going to be 
more serious, who is more 

111
00:05:34,700 --> 00:05:36,820
interested in going to see, you 
know, the football game 

112
00:05:37,020 --> 00:05:38,340
afterward? 
They just want to be done. 

113
00:05:38,500 --> 00:05:41,460
You know who really cared? 
And you know who had their. 

114
00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,000
Different type of bias, you can 
say in the legal system. 

115
00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,600
So I think that his article 
really helps people put that 

116
00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:49,920
into context that you know, 
really I don't actually live 

117
00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,640
under the rule of law. 
It's kind of a myth. 

118
00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,040
It's just more so there's a 
little bit of a framework of of 

119
00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,080
allowable opinion and these 
people coming from the same kind

120
00:05:58,080 --> 00:05:59,880
of backgrounds and there's a 
scope within that. 

121
00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,600
But really, it's just about 
finality, you know, that's 

122
00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:05,880
that's what it boils down to is 
people are just, you know, 

123
00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,360
seeing where the resting stop is
for a case and. 

124
00:06:08,750 --> 00:06:12,190
Justice is definitely not always
served as, as I'm sure you know 

125
00:06:12,190 --> 00:06:14,190
quite well. 
Yes. 

126
00:06:14,470 --> 00:06:18,430
What I love about the book is 
how in such a brief amount of 

127
00:06:18,430 --> 00:06:21,990
time you're able to just take a 
knife to the heart of something 

128
00:06:21,990 --> 00:06:25,430
like intellectual property. 
Just a belief that sort of like 

129
00:06:25,430 --> 00:06:28,110
exposing a fish to water. 
We all assume we have property 

130
00:06:28,110 --> 00:06:31,150
rights, you have intellectual 
property rights and that's that.

131
00:06:31,430 --> 00:06:35,040
So what I would like you to do 
is we are going to take the 

132
00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:38,680
lesson from Henry Haslett that 
economics is about not just the 

133
00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,000
short term consequences on one 
group, but the long term 

134
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,800
consequences on all groups of a 
given policy. 

135
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,600
So when it comes to embracing 
the idea of intellectual 

136
00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,560
property, walk us through the 
potential downsides and the 

137
00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,880
deontological approach that you 
give in your book. 

138
00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,960
I believe it is the first one 
libertarian volunteerism on 

139
00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,150
intellectual property. 
Sure. 

140
00:07:01,150 --> 00:07:05,030
And and definitely a hat tip to 
Steven Kinsella as well, who's 

141
00:07:05,030 --> 00:07:07,510
definitely a pioneer in this 
field and someone who I respect 

142
00:07:08,070 --> 00:07:11,430
definitely as a, you know, 
cohort and friend in the in this

143
00:07:11,590 --> 00:07:13,630
field of of thinking about 
intellectual property. 

144
00:07:13,630 --> 00:07:15,950
So big inspiration from him and 
me. 

145
00:07:15,950 --> 00:07:17,750
You know, I'm just further 
flushing some stuff out, 

146
00:07:17,750 --> 00:07:19,510
different framings. 
But his, his work is great 

147
00:07:19,510 --> 00:07:22,550
against intellectual property. 
So you know, when it comes to 

148
00:07:22,550 --> 00:07:25,150
thinking through that, you just 
have to think about property 

149
00:07:25,150 --> 00:07:28,070
rights at the bare bones, right.
What makes ethical property 

150
00:07:28,070 --> 00:07:30,410
rights? 
And when we're talking about our

151
00:07:30,410 --> 00:07:32,530
perspective here, that is the 
libertarian voluntaris 

152
00:07:32,530 --> 00:07:35,770
perspective and sometimes tying 
in the Austrians perspective, 

153
00:07:35,770 --> 00:07:38,770
here we're talking about 
physicality and scarcity, right?

154
00:07:38,770 --> 00:07:41,170
Because again, what we're 
worried about when it comes to 

155
00:07:41,170 --> 00:07:43,690
assigning these things is that 
you are not deprived of the 

156
00:07:43,690 --> 00:07:46,050
physical things that you have. 
No one's going to come take an 

157
00:07:46,050 --> 00:07:48,330
apple as you're about to eat it 
and be like, Oh no, you know, I 

158
00:07:48,330 --> 00:07:51,450
can't eat that apple. 
So where things lack the ability

159
00:07:51,450 --> 00:07:53,970
to have scarcity over, right? 
If someone could, you know, have

160
00:07:53,970 --> 00:07:56,210
an apple in their hand and 
someone through some. 

161
00:07:56,650 --> 00:07:58,850
Magical machine, right? 
You think Star Trek or something

162
00:07:58,890 --> 00:08:01,090
like that and they're able to 
copy your apple perfectly, but 

163
00:08:01,090 --> 00:08:02,730
they don't deprive you of it, 
right? 

164
00:08:02,730 --> 00:08:04,770
You haven't been take you 
haven't had that apple taken out

165
00:08:04,770 --> 00:08:06,130
of your hand. 
They're able to somehow 

166
00:08:06,130 --> 00:08:08,770
replicate that in a machine 
elsewhere, but you haven't been 

167
00:08:08,770 --> 00:08:11,010
deprived of that. 
So intellectual property here 

168
00:08:11,450 --> 00:08:14,770
means that someone else gets to 
control your physical property, 

169
00:08:14,770 --> 00:08:18,370
your apple, just by virtue of 
saying, well, I happen to have 

170
00:08:18,370 --> 00:08:20,330
this thing first. 
And you know, for example, if 

171
00:08:20,330 --> 00:08:22,530
somewhere to make a a drawing 
like let's just say. 

172
00:08:23,300 --> 00:08:24,740
You know this comic book here, 
right? 

173
00:08:25,020 --> 00:08:28,060
I have, I have this artwork, and
if someone were to go with their

174
00:08:28,060 --> 00:08:32,340
own pencil and paper and to draw
this exact same thing, I 

175
00:08:32,340 --> 00:08:34,860
wouldn't have a right to say, 
well, you can't fashion your 

176
00:08:34,860 --> 00:08:37,419
property, which again, it's it's
not my pencil, it's not my 

177
00:08:37,419 --> 00:08:38,340
paper. 
I wouldn't have the right to 

178
00:08:38,340 --> 00:08:41,539
say, Oh well, you can't fashion 
it like this cover because that 

179
00:08:41,539 --> 00:08:45,180
would be me saying, oh, I get to
control how you form your 

180
00:08:45,180 --> 00:08:49,020
totally independent property. 
And to have this intellectual 

181
00:08:49,020 --> 00:08:51,260
property paradigm in the state 
means the government is going to

182
00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:54,060
threaten that person with 
violent force for doing that, 

183
00:08:54,060 --> 00:08:57,180
for using what is totally their 
own physical property, the 

184
00:08:57,340 --> 00:09:00,540
pencil and paper, to make 
something that is in similitude 

185
00:09:00,540 --> 00:09:03,620
to this. 
And so that's really where we're

186
00:09:03,620 --> 00:09:05,460
at. 
At the core is that we reject 

187
00:09:05,460 --> 00:09:08,980
this idea that just because 
someone makes their property, 

188
00:09:08,980 --> 00:09:10,780
their physically owned 
independent property, in 

189
00:09:10,780 --> 00:09:14,100
similitude to something that you
may have made, that that doesn't

190
00:09:14,100 --> 00:09:16,500
merit the initiation of force 
against them to stop them. 

191
00:09:17,020 --> 00:09:20,300
And so when it comes to 
creativity and innovation and 

192
00:09:20,300 --> 00:09:22,940
things like that, we have to 
think outside of the 

193
00:09:22,940 --> 00:09:25,940
intellectual property paradigm 
in order to have that done 

194
00:09:25,940 --> 00:09:28,140
ethically. 
And it's not something that is 

195
00:09:28,140 --> 00:09:32,220
even weird or unusual to do or 
or to think about, because it 

196
00:09:32,220 --> 00:09:35,380
already exists, in large part 
thanks to the ease of copying 

197
00:09:35,540 --> 00:09:38,700
and digital technologies. 
You know, back in the day, maybe

198
00:09:38,700 --> 00:09:41,580
you could try to stop people 
from making copies of records a 

199
00:09:41,580 --> 00:09:43,460
little more readily, or cassette
tapes somewhat. 

200
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,120
But once you got to the Internet
and and computer technology, 

201
00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,600
anybody could rip songs and 
boom, distribute them across the

202
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,480
globe instantaneously from 
Napster to Limewire and then so 

203
00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,040
on so forth. 
People just ripping things off, 

204
00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,320
YouTube, whatever. 
You couldn't stop it. 

205
00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,840
Like there's no meaningful way 
to stop people from sharing 

206
00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:01,160
things. 
So people had to adapt. 

207
00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:02,440
And we already know what that 
looks like. 

208
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,960
We know what it looks like for 
musicians to adapt to those 

209
00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,040
situations, to think about how 
to monetize. 

210
00:10:08,470 --> 00:10:11,470
Outside of just purely 
distribution of music, and that 

211
00:10:11,470 --> 00:10:14,270
includes things like live 
performances, special merch 

212
00:10:14,270 --> 00:10:18,750
there, Crowdsource, fundraising 
to create things, sometimes 

213
00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:21,230
doing special releases or 
limited things, you know, to 

214
00:10:21,230 --> 00:10:22,790
fans and stuff like that using 
patronage. 

215
00:10:22,950 --> 00:10:24,630
There's just a bunch of 
different ways that people have 

216
00:10:24,630 --> 00:10:26,670
come up to circumvent that type 
of issue. 

217
00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,680
And you know, I think that this 
is just something that applies 

218
00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:31,400
across the board to any type of 
thing. 

219
00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,520
Some people say, well music, you
know is one thing, but what 

220
00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,040
about trying to make complex 
electronics or washing machines 

221
00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,920
and this to that. 
And I do touch a little bit 

222
00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,880
about how even right now that 
stuff is also readily copied in 

223
00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,040
places like China and other 
places where it's it's hard to 

224
00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,520
control what people are doing 
over there and they're taking 

225
00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:49,480
technology and they're and 
they're ripping it and they're 

226
00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:50,680
immediately coming out with 
something new. 

227
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:54,240
You you really have to have a 
product offering off that in 

228
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,320
customer service and other 
things that make you stand out. 

229
00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,240
You're not going to just be able
to stand out just by resting on 

230
00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:02,600
the idea and the first iteration
of that alone. 

231
00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,920
So, you know, fundamentally 
that's just all boils down to is

232
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,400
we have this ethical principle 
that, hey, you can't control how

233
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,000
other people fashion their 
property. 

234
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,480
And now you just have to think, 
OK, within the context of that 

235
00:11:12,680 --> 00:11:15,840
ethical confine, how do you 
innovate and how do you provide 

236
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:17,680
value to others in an ethical 
way? 

237
00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,440
And once you have that grounded,
it's not that crazy and 

238
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:22,800
everything else kind of falls 
into place. 

239
00:11:24,060 --> 00:11:28,460
I think one of the main reasons 
that very good people who are 

240
00:11:28,460 --> 00:11:33,220
well intended disagree about so 
many political issues when more 

241
00:11:33,220 --> 00:11:36,100
or less in the, you know, 
greater scheme of life they can 

242
00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:39,700
agree on most other things and 
act in a civilized manner is so 

243
00:11:39,700 --> 00:11:42,420
often when people are talking 
about government, they don't 

244
00:11:42,420 --> 00:11:44,580
even agree on what the 
definition of government is. 

245
00:11:44,580 --> 00:11:47,900
Very often government is when 
people come together and 

246
00:11:47,900 --> 00:11:49,860
organize themselves for the 
greater good. 

247
00:11:50,380 --> 00:11:52,940
I can't tell you how many times 
I've gotten that definition, so 

248
00:11:52,940 --> 00:11:56,580
it makes perfect sense when, if 
that's your starting point. 

249
00:11:56,580 --> 00:11:59,340
No wonder we end up on the other
side of every single issue. 

250
00:11:59,580 --> 00:12:02,940
So before getting into the 
philosophy of government a 

251
00:12:02,940 --> 00:12:05,340
little more, when you're talking
about government, do you 

252
00:12:05,340 --> 00:12:08,780
differentiate that from a state 
and what are those definitions 

253
00:12:08,780 --> 00:12:10,760
we're dealing with? 
Sure. 

254
00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:14,320
So I use government and state 
interchangeably generally. 

255
00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,320
I don't. 
Some people say, well governance

256
00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,160
is not the same as government. 
And you know when we're talking 

257
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,640
about the political realm, we're
we're talking about governments 

258
00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:23,200
being states. 
That is, you know, groups of 

259
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:25,680
people. 
Typically it's very rare that 

260
00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:27,760
someone is solely able to carry 
this out themselves. 

261
00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:29,200
Usually it's an oligarchy of 
sorts. 

262
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,320
But the group of people who is 
claiming to own everybody, 

263
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:35,120
Everything that's already 
existing in a region by 

264
00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,990
unilateral forcible decree. 
And they're doing this by, you 

265
00:12:38,990 --> 00:12:42,150
know, essentially saying, oh, 
well, I'm your ruler and I get 

266
00:12:42,150 --> 00:12:43,670
to own you and your house. 
Yep. 

267
00:12:43,670 --> 00:12:44,910
I don't care that you're already
been born. 

268
00:12:44,910 --> 00:12:46,590
I don't care that you already 
have a house built and you're 

269
00:12:46,590 --> 00:12:49,670
just living your life. 
I own you and your stuff. 

270
00:12:49,670 --> 00:12:51,750
And whatever you decide to do 
with that and whatever you 

271
00:12:51,750 --> 00:12:55,430
decide to trade with others by 
virtue of that decree, and it's 

272
00:12:55,430 --> 00:12:59,150
backed up, of course, by force. 
And traditionally, this was kind

273
00:12:59,150 --> 00:13:00,630
of funded through different 
means. 

274
00:13:00,630 --> 00:13:02,710
You know, often it would be 
someone who. 

275
00:13:03,180 --> 00:13:06,860
Would hire mercenaries and 
promise them spoils from others.

276
00:13:06,860 --> 00:13:09,660
Like, hey, help me get control 
over these people and I'll give 

277
00:13:09,660 --> 00:13:11,700
you spoils, you know, as part of
that. 

278
00:13:12,180 --> 00:13:15,060
Of course over time it evolved 
into more sophisticated systems.

279
00:13:15,060 --> 00:13:17,820
You know from the direct 
violence model to try to make it

280
00:13:17,820 --> 00:13:19,420
seem like oh see, this is of the
people. 

281
00:13:19,420 --> 00:13:21,780
It's not a bunch of of bandits 
who are ruling you. 

282
00:13:21,780 --> 00:13:24,380
It's it's people like you and 
you're you're us. 

283
00:13:24,620 --> 00:13:26,980
Even though you have nothing to 
do with establishing the 

284
00:13:26,980 --> 00:13:29,180
constitutional laws or anything 
whatsoever. 

285
00:13:29,420 --> 00:13:31,020
They just say, yeah, yeah, this 
is you. 

286
00:13:31,020 --> 00:13:33,060
You're part of what we're doing 
here is. 

287
00:13:33,180 --> 00:13:34,860
They're the ones who get all 
your resources and money and 

288
00:13:34,860 --> 00:13:37,580
control you and the ways that 
you know you can't do back to 

289
00:13:37,580 --> 00:13:40,060
us. 
So that's really where we 

290
00:13:40,060 --> 00:13:41,860
delineate here. 
You know those terms from other 

291
00:13:41,860 --> 00:13:43,020
things. 
We're talking about government 

292
00:13:43,020 --> 00:13:46,340
and states in in that construct.
In a way that's that's this 

293
00:13:46,340 --> 00:13:48,420
initiation of force that's 
distinct from other types of 

294
00:13:48,420 --> 00:13:51,660
rudimentary violence. 
Amazing how they can say that 

295
00:13:51,660 --> 00:13:54,300
with a strike face. 
Oh, so I can tax your income? 

296
00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:58,460
No, but I can tax yours. 
Can I issue regulations on your 

297
00:13:58,460 --> 00:14:00,350
ability to conduct commerce? 
No. 

298
00:14:00,350 --> 00:14:02,870
That would actually make you 
threatening A politician, which 

299
00:14:02,870 --> 00:14:05,950
makes you a terrorist. 
OK, this doesn't feel like an 

300
00:14:05,950 --> 00:14:10,630
extension of me. 
Representative, in book one on 

301
00:14:10,630 --> 00:14:13,830
page 62, you ask the vitally 
important question. 

302
00:14:13,870 --> 00:14:17,270
Compared to what? 
When having philosophical 

303
00:14:17,350 --> 00:14:21,630
discussions, or even just 
everyday empirical discussions. 

304
00:14:21,790 --> 00:14:24,310
Why is it important to ask 
compared to what? 

305
00:14:24,350 --> 00:14:26,270
And please provide us with an 
example. 

306
00:14:27,190 --> 00:14:29,910
Sure. 
So compared to what I think one 

307
00:14:29,910 --> 00:14:32,750
of the people who I especially 
think about this whenever I hear

308
00:14:32,750 --> 00:14:34,830
the term, it is, you know, 
Stefan Molyneux from back in the

309
00:14:34,830 --> 00:14:38,510
day doing that philosophical 
deep thinking of of the compared

310
00:14:38,510 --> 00:14:42,950
to what's to remember that we 
are not in this world where 

311
00:14:42,950 --> 00:14:46,190
every single perfection about 
everything is is written in the 

312
00:14:46,190 --> 00:14:49,030
stars for us, right? 
We are not told, here's what 

313
00:14:49,030 --> 00:14:51,230
moral ethical behavior is by 
default. 

314
00:14:51,670 --> 00:14:53,750
We're not told, here's how all 
of science works. 

315
00:14:53,750 --> 00:14:55,310
We're not told. 
Here's all, all of math works. 

316
00:14:55,470 --> 00:14:58,990
We're in a constant state. 
Of discovery and learning and 

317
00:14:58,990 --> 00:15:02,070
evolving and adapting. 
And because of that, sometimes 

318
00:15:02,070 --> 00:15:05,470
people will critique what your 
position is, even if your 

319
00:15:05,470 --> 00:15:08,990
position may not necessarily be 
the end all, be all of 

320
00:15:08,990 --> 00:15:10,710
solutions. 
They might critique you, but 

321
00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:15,350
then their own position is much 
worse or more vile in terms of 

322
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:17,670
the harms caused. 
You know, against people, right?

323
00:15:17,950 --> 00:15:19,680
So. 
You sometimes have to be like, 

324
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,280
OK, there could be critiques 
about what I am saying 

325
00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,480
potentially, but compared to 
what? 

326
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:26,400
As in what are you advocating 
for? 

327
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:28,440
And a lot of times this comes 
into play when we're talking 

328
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,680
about the nature of statism, 
right? 

329
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,040
Because we're often thinking in 
terms of state violence with 

330
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,960
thinking about how the state is 
actually operating and what 

331
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:42,800
they're doing compared to what 
could be done if that wasn't the

332
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,760
means of funding things or that 
wasn't the means of 

333
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:47,600
orchestrating, you know, human 
behavior. 

334
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,560
And so that's a lot of times 
what we're trying to get people 

335
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,000
to wrestle away from is this 
idea. 

336
00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,840
Oh, the only way to do this 
thing is, is the state. 

337
00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,440
And you're like, oh, well, you 
know, how will that ever arise? 

338
00:15:58,440 --> 00:15:59,880
You know, they'll just be 
warlords and this or that. 

339
00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,920
And it's it's like, no, you 
know, here's how roads can be 

340
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,120
funded privately and and can be 
made right. 

341
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:07,880
It's not like, oh, OK, that's 
not possible to make roads, 

342
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,360
right. 
So you know, you have to sit 

343
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,200
there and and get people to walk
through those things and say OK.

344
00:16:13,660 --> 00:16:16,780
Here's how you're advocating for
things to be funded and things 

345
00:16:16,780 --> 00:16:18,700
to be orchestrated. 
And what are the actual 

346
00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:21,180
specifics in, in terms of what 
each person's doing to get 

347
00:16:21,180 --> 00:16:23,100
there? 
And they say, OK, well, what if 

348
00:16:23,100 --> 00:16:25,860
we, you know, in the comparative
we're to try to achieve that 

349
00:16:25,860 --> 00:16:29,140
without all the threats of force
and violence and these automatic

350
00:16:29,140 --> 00:16:32,820
mandatory takings that end up 
being used to fund massive wars 

351
00:16:32,820 --> 00:16:35,380
over in the Middle East and 
spending trillions of dollars on

352
00:16:35,380 --> 00:16:37,820
things that people truly don't 
want to enrich. 

353
00:16:37,980 --> 00:16:41,950
You know those in power, right? 
So it's it's it's just a great 

354
00:16:42,190 --> 00:16:44,790
discourse to have on anything 
that you you want to talk about.

355
00:16:44,790 --> 00:16:47,790
And it obviously is very easy to
show, you know, if you get a 

356
00:16:47,790 --> 00:16:50,950
little verse in in some of the 
details, how much the government

357
00:16:50,950 --> 00:16:54,070
actually causes harm in the 
comparative, especially for 

358
00:16:54,070 --> 00:16:56,710
interventions. 
And you know what was before 

359
00:16:56,710 --> 00:16:59,750
they intervened or in places 
where you know, you can actually

360
00:16:59,750 --> 00:17:01,750
see where the government has 
gotten out of it in some 

361
00:17:01,750 --> 00:17:03,950
miraculous way and how things 
have flourished. 

362
00:17:03,950 --> 00:17:05,390
So I like to think about it like
that. 

363
00:17:06,030 --> 00:17:08,030
Oh, yes. 
Shout out to the Airline 

364
00:17:08,030 --> 00:17:10,390
Deregulation Act. 
Thank you very much, Jimmy 

365
00:17:10,390 --> 00:17:14,869
Carter, for basically only that.
The reason that was so important

366
00:17:15,069 --> 00:17:18,710
for me is because I would always
think, well, the problem is, you

367
00:17:18,710 --> 00:17:21,869
know, under like a system of 
anarchism, I don't, you know, 

368
00:17:21,869 --> 00:17:24,630
there's no guarantee that my 
body isn't protected. 

369
00:17:24,630 --> 00:17:27,510
There's no guarantee that my, 
you know, house and all the 

370
00:17:27,510 --> 00:17:29,390
things I've worked for aren't 
protected. 

371
00:17:30,110 --> 00:17:33,070
To which you should have, to 
which I should have asked then 

372
00:17:33,350 --> 00:17:35,390
compared to what? 
Is there a guarantee now? 

373
00:17:35,790 --> 00:17:38,270
Tons of rioters, Tons of 
looting, tons of wars with 

374
00:17:38,270 --> 00:17:41,510
indiscriminate bombing, taking 
30% of my income and then 

375
00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:44,310
bragging about it and then never
thanking me, which I will never 

376
00:17:44,310 --> 00:17:47,150
get over that, That no 
politician has thanked me for 

377
00:17:47,150 --> 00:17:50,670
all the taxes I paid, whereas 
anytime I buy a cup of coffee at

378
00:17:50,670 --> 00:17:52,870
a private organization, they say
thank you so much. 

379
00:17:53,190 --> 00:17:56,110
It's just ridiculous. 
So, compared to what is so 

380
00:17:56,110 --> 00:17:58,870
vitally important for people to 
have in their intellectual 

381
00:17:58,870 --> 00:18:05,190
repertoire in order to combat 
propaganda, on page 94 you have 

382
00:18:05,190 --> 00:18:08,310
the citation which I thought was
very interesting. 

383
00:18:08,350 --> 00:18:12,470
You cite Forbes magazine. 
Private security outnumbers the 

384
00:18:12,470 --> 00:18:15,030
police in most countries 
worldwide. 

385
00:18:15,150 --> 00:18:20,070
It's an infographic from 2017. 
What do people need to know 

386
00:18:20,070 --> 00:18:22,390
about the reality of private 
security? 

387
00:18:22,590 --> 00:18:26,240
Not just how it might or I would
like to get in how things might 

388
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,120
work hypothetically, but also 
there's so much private security

389
00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:30,640
we have today that we don't 
appreciate. 

390
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,360
Please enlighten the audience 
with the private security that's

391
00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:37,360
constantly all around us. 
Yeah, the whole private security

392
00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:40,400
thing is, is kind of mind, mind 
boggling, because in some ways, 

393
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,920
I think people have gotten so 
used to it, they don't even, 

394
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:46,160
like, kind of think about it in 
those terms anymore, right? 

395
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,880
You know, you might see a 
bouncer at a club or an armed 

396
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,560
guard at a bank. 
You know, or you might see that,

397
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:54,720
you know there's some private 
security getting people in at a 

398
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,080
sporting event, right? 
But they don't look at that and 

399
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,120
immediately reflect on that in 
economic terms, they're like, 

400
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,720
huh, OK, not everybody is is 
police, right? 

401
00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,320
Like, not, you know, not every 
single security thing is. 

402
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,080
Oh, OK. 
There's going to be a cop at 

403
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,880
every single gas station, A cop 
at every single sporting event, 

404
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,400
a cop at every bank, a cop that 
sits outside, you know, your 

405
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,160
house when you go to sleep. 
Right. 

406
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,040
It's something that should be 
more obvious. 

407
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,280
But you know, for people it just
doesn't connect when it becomes 

408
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,640
just kind of normal and they're 
not really like focused, you 

409
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,320
know, on that economic thinking.
So in reality, you know, around 

410
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,480
the world especially private 
security is outnumbering police 

411
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:34,120
in many places because the 
governments. 

412
00:19:34,670 --> 00:19:35,910
And they're really suck. 
You know what I mean? 

413
00:19:35,910 --> 00:19:38,630
Like a lot of these places are, 
you know, really not not the 

414
00:19:38,630 --> 00:19:41,710
best places to be. 
And and you know, basically 

415
00:19:41,710 --> 00:19:44,470
they, they need armed security 
to move transport, you know, 

416
00:19:44,470 --> 00:19:47,910
moving goods across the world. 
You know, there's literally 

417
00:19:47,910 --> 00:19:50,190
pirates that can try to take 
down ships. 

418
00:19:50,190 --> 00:19:51,870
And so there's there's 
literally, you know, guys with 

419
00:19:51,870 --> 00:19:54,790
machine guns and even rocket 
launchers protecting cargo 

420
00:19:54,790 --> 00:19:57,790
vessels from getting taken over.
And these are just, you know, 

421
00:19:57,790 --> 00:19:59,790
common things. 
It's it's just normal stuff if 

422
00:19:59,790 --> 00:20:01,430
you're in the global scale of 
business. 

423
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:03,920
That you don't like really think
about, you know what I mean? 

424
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,200
It's not like, OK the the US 
government's going to sign a 

425
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,520
cruiser, you know, to this giant
you know, tanker or this, you 

426
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:12,320
know, giant cargo ship that's 
shipping over you know, 10s of 

427
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,480
millions of dollars of goods. 
They have their own private 

428
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,240
security to to stop people who 
would try to you know board them

429
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:18,240
and pirate them and this and 
that. 

430
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:23,520
So private security is quite the
norm in, in most places, you 

431
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,000
know, as the first rung of 
defense because you know, police

432
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,670
are not just sitting out there 
and and private security is 

433
00:20:28,670 --> 00:20:30,270
needed for all types of of 
establishments. 

434
00:20:30,270 --> 00:20:33,990
So moving toward that end, you 
know, I I think that if people 

435
00:20:33,990 --> 00:20:36,790
were to recognize that value of 
having that frontline security 

436
00:20:36,790 --> 00:20:39,830
and not having to wait and 
taking things into their own 

437
00:20:39,830 --> 00:20:42,550
hands and kind of valuing that, 
I think they can more readily 

438
00:20:42,550 --> 00:20:45,190
see how we can move away from 
police being this like total 

439
00:20:45,190 --> 00:20:48,150
security force that they're 
always, you know, imagined to be

440
00:20:48,150 --> 00:20:50,110
there when you need them and 
then they're not there in time. 

441
00:20:50,110 --> 00:20:51,930
Of course. 
And instead of thinking about, 

442
00:20:51,930 --> 00:20:54,490
oh, OK, well what what would a 
free market and security look 

443
00:20:54,490 --> 00:20:57,290
like if people were able to 
actually choose and have more 

444
00:20:57,290 --> 00:20:59,690
accountability. 
So you know, that that's kind of

445
00:20:59,690 --> 00:21:02,050
that note there is to kind of 
put things into perspective for 

446
00:21:02,050 --> 00:21:04,690
people about what is. 
And I think that's that's often 

447
00:21:04,850 --> 00:21:08,010
what we have an advantage. 
And I think in in our discourse 

448
00:21:08,010 --> 00:21:10,890
is that there is a lot that we 
can point to right now around 

449
00:21:10,890 --> 00:21:13,970
the world in different pockets, 
different places about solutions

450
00:21:14,570 --> 00:21:17,170
outside the state, whether it's 
because the government's just 

451
00:21:17,170 --> 00:21:19,570
not intervening there or the 
government's just too 

452
00:21:19,570 --> 00:21:21,210
incompetent and solutions are 
needed. 

453
00:21:21,210 --> 00:21:23,290
So people have to step up. 
So, you know, I always try to 

454
00:21:23,290 --> 00:21:26,370
point to reality to get people 
grounded in that to see where we

455
00:21:26,370 --> 00:21:30,050
can go. 
Yeah, I did some work with an IT

456
00:21:30,170 --> 00:21:34,090
firm and to watch them when one 
of their clients had a 

457
00:21:34,290 --> 00:21:38,290
ransomware attack where their 
most vitally important items 

458
00:21:38,530 --> 00:21:42,010
like this is, their entire 
life's work was just gone. 

459
00:21:42,130 --> 00:21:44,610
And you know, there's just a 
note on the screen. 

460
00:21:44,610 --> 00:21:47,730
Send us 300 grand and we'll give
you your files back. 

461
00:21:47,770 --> 00:21:51,640
Maybe. 
None of them, not a single one, 

462
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:55,240
said quick call 911. 
They called the IT company in 

463
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,600
Arizona who backed up their 
files with private security on 

464
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,240
Google. 
They had PayPal private security

465
00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:04,520
keeping all of their finances 
intact. 

466
00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:06,280
They also had Venmo private 
security. 

467
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,200
They had multi factor 
authentication with Microsoft 

468
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,520
for all their emails and all 
that information for all their 

469
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,320
contacts. 
It was amazing to watch in the 

470
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,480
most dire circumstances. 
This organization, probably not 

471
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,280
run by anarcho capitalists at 
all, just as a means of 

472
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,000
efficiency, said what am I going
to do? 

473
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,360
Call the NSA and say my 
property's been, you know, 

474
00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:29,080
stripped from me? 
They wouldn't. 

475
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,440
They don't have the knowledge or
incentive of what to do. 

476
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,720
But private organizations do. 
Excellent part in the book. 

477
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,160
What are some lessons you've 
learned when it comes to the 

478
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:43,280
possibility or reality of 
private arbitration coming into 

479
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,270
existence? 
So this is actually kind of fun 

480
00:22:46,270 --> 00:22:49,630
because this topic was something
I was just looking into a little

481
00:22:49,630 --> 00:22:51,710
bit as I'm working on my next 
non fiction book which is going 

482
00:22:51,710 --> 00:22:55,190
to take a bit longer to do. 
So this was is going to be a 

483
00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:58,670
book on libertarian legal theory
in terms of a proscription. 

484
00:22:59,030 --> 00:23:01,670
And so this, this might be 
interesting as me and Kinsell 

485
00:23:01,670 --> 00:23:04,510
are going to you know, have our 
our books on this coming out in 

486
00:23:04,510 --> 00:23:06,920
the near future or this in the 
future. 

487
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,240
We'll see who gets there first. 
Kinsella has a lot, you know, he

488
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,080
can put together from the past, 
you know sooner. 

489
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:15,000
So, so I was looking at the 
arbitration issues and and 

490
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,680
thinking through a few things 
about private market solutions 

491
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,960
And something that's that's 
interesting about it is that 

492
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,920
with arbitration, obviously 
there's private arbitration 

493
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,000
that's been generally respected 
in terms of US courts saying OK,

494
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,320
you know if you agree to 
arbitration, you know you got to

495
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:33,520
do that thing. 
And so there's been conflicts 

496
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,270
about different issues not 
getting resolved because 

497
00:23:36,270 --> 00:23:41,150
arbitration wasn't going as well
as people had hoped or there was

498
00:23:41,150 --> 00:23:42,990
just like complications and 
stuff like that, people getting 

499
00:23:42,990 --> 00:23:45,310
justice. 
And then there was this kind of 

500
00:23:45,950 --> 00:23:48,550
wake up moment where all these 
attorneys at once like oh you 

501
00:23:48,550 --> 00:23:50,950
know, we could do class actions 
through arbitrations by like 

502
00:23:50,950 --> 00:23:54,030
filing 12,018 thousand 
arbitrations at once with big 

503
00:23:54,030 --> 00:23:57,670
companies to try to you know 
basically drain them of 

504
00:23:57,670 --> 00:24:01,790
resources in order to you know 
get a class action going that 

505
00:24:01,790 --> 00:24:02,550
way. 
Essentially. 

506
00:24:02,550 --> 00:24:06,270
You know, not like a legit class
action in terms of you know, 

507
00:24:06,270 --> 00:24:08,990
filing for a class action but 
like essentially using mass 

508
00:24:09,030 --> 00:24:10,710
arbitration filings to get 
results. 

509
00:24:11,030 --> 00:24:16,910
So I think that the possibility 
of arbitration and private 

510
00:24:16,910 --> 00:24:20,120
dispute resolution is is of 
course, you know, not even a 

511
00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:22,360
question about reality. 
Yes, it does happen. 

512
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:26,400
The effectiveness you know is 
going to I think really depend 

513
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:31,840
on to what extent people are 
both savvy about, you know, 

514
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,600
their contractual terms and 
legal backdrops about what norms

515
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,720
are required to contract in the 
1st place. 

516
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,600
And that's actually something 
that you know, I'm going to be 

517
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:45,750
tackling head on, which are you 
know, the business cultural 

518
00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:49,310
norms of what you need in order 
to have a valid, both a valid 

519
00:24:49,310 --> 00:24:53,350
contract and capacity to even 
consent to a contract. 

520
00:24:53,350 --> 00:24:58,710
So I think that these are some 
issues that are requiring market

521
00:24:58,710 --> 00:25:01,620
realignment. 
You could say because for so 

522
00:25:01,620 --> 00:25:04,580
long people have gotten into 
this comfy idea that the 

523
00:25:04,580 --> 00:25:07,300
government is going to save them
no matter what, right? 

524
00:25:07,460 --> 00:25:08,740
Sign whatever you want like 
that. 

525
00:25:08,740 --> 00:25:10,780
You know, I think it was Apple, 
like one of the people putting 

526
00:25:10,780 --> 00:25:14,060
the contract together for their,
their TOS, put in like we get 

527
00:25:14,060 --> 00:25:16,980
your first born child into the 
TOS, like just to mess with 

528
00:25:16,980 --> 00:25:19,020
people just to show that nobody 
reads it and nobody had read it,

529
00:25:19,020 --> 00:25:21,150
like, you know, so many 
downloads and nobody had, right.

530
00:25:21,150 --> 00:25:25,390
So we have, we have a real 
problem I think with this idea 

531
00:25:25,390 --> 00:25:28,070
that the government's the 
salvation, you know, and we'll 

532
00:25:28,270 --> 00:25:30,750
take you out of any bad 
situation, sign away, sign, 

533
00:25:30,750 --> 00:25:33,150
whatever, who cares, You know, 
go to California and you know 

534
00:25:33,150 --> 00:25:35,470
court shop. 
So you know all these 

535
00:25:35,470 --> 00:25:38,630
distortions in the market, I 
think you know, have really 

536
00:25:38,630 --> 00:25:42,470
caused people to not value 
reading through contracts and 

537
00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:44,980
not really, you know, take them 
seriously. 

538
00:25:44,980 --> 00:25:49,380
So ultimately I think that when 
we move toward a market, more of

539
00:25:49,380 --> 00:25:52,900
a market system over time, I 
think those things need to be 

540
00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:56,020
addressed and and need to be 
addressed from a strong 

541
00:25:56,740 --> 00:25:59,220
philosophical backdrop that 
respects property rights. 

542
00:25:59,500 --> 00:26:02,300
So I I think that that's really 
more the thing that needs to be 

543
00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:05,500
done because you know, 
arbitration is something that 

544
00:26:05,500 --> 00:26:08,180
normally, you know, happens. 
It's not like something crazy or

545
00:26:08,180 --> 00:26:09,620
wild. 
It literally exists now and even

546
00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:12,180
US courts, you know, will be 
like, no, OK, your contract says

547
00:26:12,180 --> 00:26:15,790
this, whatever. 
But you know, there's there's 

548
00:26:15,790 --> 00:26:17,990
even issues there. 
There's always issues of people 

549
00:26:17,990 --> 00:26:21,950
trying to either not comply or 
to try to get out of it and this

550
00:26:21,950 --> 00:26:24,790
or that. 
So you need to have more market 

551
00:26:24,790 --> 00:26:30,670
mechanisms that people can build
into those things for insurance 

552
00:26:30,670 --> 00:26:34,150
or escrow and other incentives 
to make them more legitimate. 

553
00:26:34,350 --> 00:26:37,350
Because the if people think 
that, well it doesn't matter, 

554
00:26:37,350 --> 00:26:39,150
you know what I mean? 
I can get away with whatever, it

555
00:26:39,150 --> 00:26:41,030
doesn't matter state law or 
private arbitration, but then 

556
00:26:41,030 --> 00:26:43,630
what difference it make, right? 
You need to have meaningful 

557
00:26:44,310 --> 00:26:48,910
accountability and reciprocity 
and upholding of those things in

558
00:26:48,910 --> 00:26:52,830
order to have a strong legal 
system, you know private or you 

559
00:26:52,830 --> 00:26:55,310
know some type of quasi 
government thing in transition. 

560
00:26:55,830 --> 00:26:58,720
So I think that those those are 
things that need to to really be

561
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:03,360
addressed at the forefront. 
But otherwise you know private 

562
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,360
arbitration or or private 
dispute resolution is very easy 

563
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:10,600
to do and already exists. 
You know what I mean, widespread

564
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:11,760
now. 
I mean, most people when they 

565
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,160
sign their agreements, are 
already agreeing to some type of

566
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,520
private arbitration most of the 
time. 

567
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,720
You know, a lot, you know a lot 
of the times these boilerplate 

568
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,120
contracts are already doing 
that, so. 

569
00:27:21,410 --> 00:27:26,530
When I was reading this book, it
really came across to me that so

570
00:27:26,530 --> 00:27:30,770
many of our of our ideas are so 
commonly held when it doesn't 

571
00:27:30,770 --> 00:27:34,090
come to the state as far as 
interacting with people on a 

572
00:27:34,090 --> 00:27:37,610
consensual basis, having things 
like informed consent and all 

573
00:27:37,610 --> 00:27:42,850
these other things when it comes
to, you know, recent issues in 

574
00:27:42,850 --> 00:27:45,560
the Middle East. 
The nicest people I have ever 

575
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,440
met are both calling for a mass 
genocide of the occupying 

576
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,560
Israelis and a flattening and 
turning into the parking lot of 

577
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,080
Gaza. 
It is amazing how good people 

578
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:01,720
can be tricked, sort of, into 
justifying the most unbelievable

579
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,880
atrocities. 
When you were doing research for

580
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:08,080
this book, did anything jump out
to you as an explanation as to 

581
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,830
how such good people? 
Can make such a 180 when it 

582
00:28:11,830 --> 00:28:14,590
comes to dealing with the state 
or even just dealing with other 

583
00:28:14,590 --> 00:28:17,990
groups in general. 
Oh, well, I mean when it comes 

584
00:28:18,030 --> 00:28:21,710
to people's social psychology on
different forms of state 

585
00:28:21,710 --> 00:28:25,750
violence and picking sides, I 
think the more that there is a 

586
00:28:25,750 --> 00:28:28,350
personal history or an 
entrenched history, that's where

587
00:28:28,350 --> 00:28:32,280
it gets tough for people because
they're going to, you know, read

588
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,160
into the situation, OK, you 
know, this is the worst 

589
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:36,880
aggressor. 
This is the less aggressor. 

590
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,480
And I don't know, maybe we, you 
know, should port them or or, 

591
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,560
you know, they're going to 
generalize against a whole group

592
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,280
of people and rationalize 
things, you know, to short 

593
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,160
circuit having to deal with the 
complexities of of these 

594
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:49,920
situations and that. 
And that is a big part of it, is

595
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,800
that it is complex and it isn't 
neat and it isn't easy to deal 

596
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,320
with because we're dealing with 
issues of people who are trying 

597
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,280
to maintain state power all 
across the board. 

598
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,040
We have people who just 
literally are like, I want to 

599
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,320
have my, you know, utopian 
vision of control over this area

600
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,680
and I want to, you know, do it 
by force and establish my 

601
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:14,000
version of of government. 
So it's it's unfortunate that, 

602
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,920
you know, a lot of people fall 
into that trap so quickly and 

603
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,560
miss the bigger picture about 
all the rationalizations for why

604
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,600
people are trying to do what it 
is they're doing in the 1st 

605
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,160
place. 
And I think that in order to do 

606
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,930
that, you have to, you know, 
stop thinking about, you know, 

607
00:29:30,930 --> 00:29:34,210
these, I guess we'd say 
historical geopolitical games. 

608
00:29:34,490 --> 00:29:36,810
You know, like, oh, OK, you 
know, this government gave them 

609
00:29:36,810 --> 00:29:38,930
this in the past and this 
government did this and this, 

610
00:29:38,930 --> 00:29:41,730
you know, and just realized it's
like, OK, forget all that 

611
00:29:41,730 --> 00:29:44,130
nonsense that, you know, none of
these governments had the 

612
00:29:44,130 --> 00:29:45,930
ethical right to do any of these
things in the 1st place. 

613
00:29:46,250 --> 00:29:49,490
You know, we should be working 
toward actual peace, actual 

614
00:29:49,490 --> 00:29:53,640
property rights ending, you 
know, forcible, you know, 

615
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,880
evictions or destruction of 
property and and and all those 

616
00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,320
kinds of things. 
It's it, you know, that's really

617
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,480
what it boils down to. 
And so you know, for that 

618
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,160
situation especially, you know, 
if we're talking about what's 

619
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,680
happening over in Israel and you
know West Bank got a lot of good

620
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,360
stuff. 
You know, it's it's such a 

621
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,000
tragic situation because 
everybody is losing in the end, 

622
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,240
right at, you know, at the end 
of the day, you, you just have a

623
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,420
bunch of people who are killing 
each other and then enacting 

624
00:30:20,420 --> 00:30:23,740
even more state control and more
brainwashing and destroying, you

625
00:30:23,740 --> 00:30:26,860
know, people's lives. 
And so, you know, a lot of the 

626
00:30:26,860 --> 00:30:29,900
times, you know, with what what 
people are advocating for, they 

627
00:30:29,940 --> 00:30:32,340
end up creating no winners in 
the end. 

628
00:30:32,340 --> 00:30:35,620
They end up just creating more 
blowback and more destruction. 

629
00:30:35,620 --> 00:30:37,500
So, you know, it's just sad all 
around. 

630
00:30:38,380 --> 00:30:42,500
That is an excellent point. 
In March of 1948, Winston 

631
00:30:42,500 --> 00:30:45,300
Churchill published The 
Gathering Storm and in the 

632
00:30:45,300 --> 00:30:48,530
introduction he says. 
The human tragedy reaches its 

633
00:30:48,530 --> 00:30:51,610
climax, and after all the 
exertions and sacrifices of 

634
00:30:51,610 --> 00:30:54,690
hundreds of millions of people, 
we have found neither peace nor 

635
00:30:54,690 --> 00:30:56,850
security. 
And we lie in the grip of even 

636
00:30:56,850 --> 00:30:59,850
worse perils than those we have 
surmounted, referring to the 

637
00:30:59,850 --> 00:31:04,450
fact that now the Soviet, 
Bolshevik, Bolshevik regime now 

638
00:31:04,450 --> 00:31:08,530
has half of Europe, so even 
after the most justified war 

639
00:31:08,530 --> 00:31:12,650
that could ever be justified. 
It still turns out that even the

640
00:31:12,650 --> 00:31:16,090
Prime Minister of Great Britain 
said, well, even after all that,

641
00:31:16,090 --> 00:31:18,170
there were some unintended 
consequences. 

642
00:31:18,330 --> 00:31:21,410
So for their best example, they 
still have this and they're 

643
00:31:21,410 --> 00:31:24,170
still willing to go to war 
against Iran, China, Russia and 

644
00:31:24,170 --> 00:31:27,090
all of these these other groups.
Just terrible. 

645
00:31:27,090 --> 00:31:30,650
That's why I love having books 
like this, where people can see 

646
00:31:30,650 --> 00:31:33,690
the lights and not get fooled. 
When it comes to not being 

647
00:31:33,690 --> 00:31:37,730
fooled, you have a section on 
schooling or education. 

648
00:31:38,140 --> 00:31:41,500
And you reference a possible 
alternative, referred to as 

649
00:31:41,540 --> 00:31:44,660
unschooling. 
What is unschooling and what can

650
00:31:44,660 --> 00:31:49,140
people do to combat any trickery
they came across in state 

651
00:31:49,300 --> 00:31:51,140
education? 
Sure. 

652
00:31:51,140 --> 00:31:54,580
So a little background about me 
on this and how I came to be 

653
00:31:54,580 --> 00:31:58,060
interested in it is that, you 
know, my past work, I've been a 

654
00:31:58,260 --> 00:32:00,180
juvenile defense attorney. 
I've been a public school 

655
00:32:00,180 --> 00:32:01,460
teacher. 
You know state school teacher, 

656
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:03,800
I've been a tutor, company 
owner, substitute teacher and my

657
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,760
dad was a 30 year career New 
York City school teacher. 

658
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,520
So I come from a background with
a lot of schooling things and 

659
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:15,280
young people and I saw through 
that all how much the, you know 

660
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:18,400
nature of compulsory, you know 
that is forcing someone to learn

661
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,000
at the tune of a bell, these 
subjects in this order, you 

662
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,440
know. 
Otherwise you're labeled as a 

663
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,280
failure or behind you know or 
just not smart. 

664
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:26,320
You just work at McDonald's, 
right? 

665
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,350
I I saw how much that destroyed 
young people's creativity and 

666
00:32:31,350 --> 00:32:35,230
self drive and self worth in 
ways that just were absolutely 

667
00:32:35,230 --> 00:32:37,310
absurd. 
Considering that, you know, 

668
00:32:37,390 --> 00:32:40,030
whatever you're doing, most of 
it's going to be forgotten by 

669
00:32:40,030 --> 00:32:42,470
the time you graduate. 
It's just it you can't retain 

670
00:32:42,470 --> 00:32:45,070
all the information you're 
covering, you know, keep only a 

671
00:32:45,070 --> 00:32:48,110
little bit. 
So I thought that it was, you 

672
00:32:48,110 --> 00:32:51,110
know, time to really take a look
at this whole picture and say, 

673
00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:54,720
OK, what is the nature of 
ethical education? 

674
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,760
And so the education that is, 
you know, most compatible with 

675
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:02,800
the voluntarious libertarian 
mindset is unschooling, where 

676
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,160
adults act as facilitators, 
learning that it's helpers 

677
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,720
instead of performance judges. 
And what this means that young 

678
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,240
people are are free to choose 
whatever it is that they would 

679
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,240
like to do in terms of learning 
within, you know, safe 

680
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,000
boundaries. 
You know, obviously they can't 

681
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,600
go and like set up C4 at 
someone's, you know, house and 

682
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,000
that kind of thing, It's it's, 
you know, it's meant to be with 

683
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:22,800
the respect of property rights, 
of course. 

684
00:33:24,090 --> 00:33:27,690
But the the idea there is that 
kids are naturally curious about

685
00:33:27,690 --> 00:33:29,530
the world. 
They are thirsty for knowledge. 

686
00:33:29,810 --> 00:33:31,850
They have questions about 
everything and they just want 

687
00:33:32,130 --> 00:33:35,850
adults there to help them with 
their questions or or provide 

688
00:33:36,090 --> 00:33:39,610
resources as needed instead of 
telling them what to do and tell

689
00:33:39,610 --> 00:33:41,410
them that they're going to be 
stupid if they don't learn this 

690
00:33:41,410 --> 00:33:43,050
particular thing at this 
particular time. 

691
00:33:43,210 --> 00:33:46,610
And by and large, most every 
young person who goes through 

692
00:33:46,610 --> 00:33:50,530
this learns all the basics, the 
fundamentals of reading, 

693
00:33:50,530 --> 00:33:52,760
writing, arithmetic and 
numeracy. 

694
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,440
You know, world history just by 
engaging the culture and the 

695
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,040
tools of the culture. 
And this is done at many 

696
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:03,920
different types of places, from 
unschooling co-ops to official 

697
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,240
unschooling centers like the 
Sudbury Valley School in 

698
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,280
Framingham, MA, which they've 
had to program then since 1968 

699
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,120
to just homeschooling. 
Not really at home, but like 

700
00:34:12,750 --> 00:34:15,830
unschooling in the context of 
home schooling, sometimes called

701
00:34:15,830 --> 00:34:17,949
world schooling, especially if 
you if you travel with your 

702
00:34:17,949 --> 00:34:20,030
child to different places around
the world, help them learn new 

703
00:34:20,030 --> 00:34:21,949
languages, experience cultures 
and things like that. 

704
00:34:21,949 --> 00:34:27,790
So that is really the ethos of 
unschooling and it is a fairly 

705
00:34:27,830 --> 00:34:31,679
well developed at this point. 
It's, you know, the philosophy 

706
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:33,719
behind it. 
And there's a great book by 

707
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,679
Kerry MacDonald, who is a 
Foundation for Economic 

708
00:34:36,679 --> 00:34:40,120
Education fellow called 
Unschooled Raising a Curious 

709
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,520
Children, well educated children
outside the conventional 

710
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:45,040
classroom. 
I highly recommend people check 

711
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,679
that book out. 
She herself holds a masters in 

712
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:50,199
Education from Harvard. 
She's unschooled her four kids, 

713
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,800
so she has, you know, the 
academic credentials for those 

714
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,360
who need it and the lived 
experience. 

715
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,360
So I think that that is a great 
start. 

716
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,600
Obviously she's not the only one
by far, but I think it's a great

717
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,310
start for people to really dive 
into it and understand what it 

718
00:35:01,310 --> 00:35:03,110
means. 
And so I've done a lot of work 

719
00:35:03,750 --> 00:35:05,950
helping families exit the school
and paradigm through my page the

720
00:35:05,950 --> 00:35:09,590
Honest teacher and I've gotten 
numerous families to finally 

721
00:35:09,590 --> 00:35:12,590
make the jump get their kids out
of compulsory learning and to 

722
00:35:12,590 --> 00:35:15,070
unschool and and every single 
one you know who's done that so 

723
00:35:15,070 --> 00:35:17,070
far to me, you know who's 
communicated with me about it 

724
00:35:17,070 --> 00:35:20,310
has said wow this has been an 
incredible experience amazing 

725
00:35:20,310 --> 00:35:22,270
journey. 
I had no idea that I was you 

726
00:35:22,270 --> 00:35:25,430
know basically stopping their 
learning and and actually you 

727
00:35:25,430 --> 00:35:29,140
know curtailing it through the 
forced a schooling paradigm and 

728
00:35:29,140 --> 00:35:30,460
the shame and and the other 
things like that. 

729
00:35:30,460 --> 00:35:33,020
So you know and then parents 
too, they, you know, sometimes 

730
00:35:33,020 --> 00:35:36,180
have to decompress themselves 
from the schooled mindset. 

731
00:35:36,180 --> 00:35:38,980
They have to kind of work back 
all the structures they have in 

732
00:35:38,980 --> 00:35:42,740
the psychological fears they 
have from the schooled mindset 

733
00:35:42,740 --> 00:35:46,180
where they think Oh my gosh, if 
my kid isn't in this you know, K

734
00:35:46,180 --> 00:35:48,740
to 12 program, you know, for 
school, they're just going to be

735
00:35:48,900 --> 00:35:52,130
broke or this is that so. 
And and kids of course through 

736
00:35:52,130 --> 00:35:54,410
unschooling, you know, doesn't 
mean they don't have ever any 

737
00:35:54,410 --> 00:35:56,250
textbooks or a class or 
anything. 

738
00:35:56,250 --> 00:35:58,410
They're they're free to take it 
as they're interested. 

739
00:35:58,410 --> 00:36:01,130
And if they want to take a class
on Japanese language, of course,

740
00:36:01,130 --> 00:36:03,130
if they want to take a class on 
computer programming, of course 

741
00:36:03,130 --> 00:36:05,570
it's up to them. 
It's just a matter of their 

742
00:36:05,570 --> 00:36:08,370
election, their choosing based 
on self direction, and that's 

743
00:36:08,370 --> 00:36:11,050
where the learning is actually 
deepest and most meaningful. 

744
00:36:12,060 --> 00:36:15,820
Yeah, and I think not going by 
that principle is so dangerous 

745
00:36:15,820 --> 00:36:19,700
for both sides. 
Once the kids, the kid becomes 

746
00:36:19,700 --> 00:36:22,780
sort of resentful or does, you 
know, just the bare minimum. 

747
00:36:23,100 --> 00:36:27,580
But it also is bad for the 
teacher or parent because it 

748
00:36:27,580 --> 00:36:31,180
doesn't really get them to the 
point where they say okay. 

749
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,120
I need to motivate this child to
learn about history, economics, 

750
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,400
philosophy. 
How am I going to make this 

751
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,560
interesting for them? 
How do I communicate it so 

752
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,920
effectively to where they 
realize that history really is 

753
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,680
important in teaching us lessons
with how to deal with things 

754
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,040
today? 
When I was in school, I felt 

755
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,600
like they could not care less 
about respecting my time. 

756
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,120
So it ends up being both in the 
benefit of the teacher and the 

757
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,840
student when we embrace ideas 
like this. 

758
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,280
I want you to lead by example 
and give us an unschooling 

759
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,160
lesson on five of our heroes. 
I know you had to have read a 

760
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,160
lot of their work in doing 
research for this book. 

761
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,120
Please walk us through the most 
important lesson you learned 

762
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:19,120
from Murray and Rothbard. 
So Murray Rothbard, I would say 

763
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,840
there's a lot of lessons that 
I've learned from him in terms 

764
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,040
of thinking about state 
violence. 

765
00:37:26,430 --> 00:37:29,470
But I'll say in some ways my 
favorite things from Rothbard 

766
00:37:29,470 --> 00:37:33,670
are more so thinking about what 
I liked to change and and be 

767
00:37:33,670 --> 00:37:35,750
different. 
So for example, when Rothbard 

768
00:37:35,750 --> 00:37:38,750
talked about the the market and 
children thing, I didn't like 

769
00:37:38,750 --> 00:37:41,430
how he framed that. 
And so I changed that, of 

770
00:37:41,430 --> 00:37:44,470
course, noted that in my books 
as well to something about a 

771
00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:47,670
stewardship relationship with 
children. 

772
00:37:47,670 --> 00:37:50,580
It's not ownership. 
You don't own the body of the 

773
00:37:50,580 --> 00:37:52,060
child. 
They're not your property. 

774
00:37:52,060 --> 00:37:56,220
It's a stewardship relationship.
So I really appreciated him 

775
00:37:56,340 --> 00:38:00,060
making these types of statements
session The Ethics of Liberty, 

776
00:38:00,260 --> 00:38:03,460
because it helped me see that 
there was, I thought, room for 

777
00:38:03,460 --> 00:38:06,360
improvement of ways to 
communicate these things and 

778
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,400
that it wasn't just, oh, 
everybody's dead and there's 

779
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,560
nothing to improve upon. 
There's nothing to do better. 

780
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,640
But you know, I I love his 
scathing review of what the 

781
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,600
state really is in the United 
States. 

782
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,600
That's definitely one of my 
favourites of his. 

783
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,240
But the The Ethics of Liberty I 
thought was is probably one of 

784
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:25,480
my favorite books of his and and
what inspired me in some ways to

785
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,040
do my own writing and and write 
my own articles and eventually 

786
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,510
do that to write my own book. 
OK, and why is it that liberty 

787
00:38:32,510 --> 00:38:34,870
is ethical as opposed to 
coercion? 

788
00:38:34,870 --> 00:38:37,390
Or what the opposite of liberty 
would be. 

789
00:38:38,910 --> 00:38:42,030
Yeah, yeah, the opposite of of 
liberty would be a total 

790
00:38:42,230 --> 00:38:45,370
slavery. 
But the ethics and and how I 

791
00:38:45,370 --> 00:38:50,130
frame that is specifically about
an adoptive ethic psychology. 

792
00:38:50,130 --> 00:38:54,290
So what we're talking about here
is not necessarily, oh, this is 

793
00:38:54,410 --> 00:38:57,050
the absolute truth of the 
universe like this. 

794
00:38:57,050 --> 00:39:00,410
God created everything or there 
wasn't a God of this that I 

795
00:39:00,410 --> 00:39:03,770
sidestep all that and just 
simply focus on the nature of 

796
00:39:03,770 --> 00:39:07,730
how people empathetically view 
each other and those 

797
00:39:07,730 --> 00:39:11,810
relationships and develop that 
ethical code of conduct from 

798
00:39:11,890 --> 00:39:14,410
what people expect for 
themselves. 

799
00:39:14,410 --> 00:39:17,530
And that's where we start with 
the consent ethic, how people 

800
00:39:17,530 --> 00:39:19,330
cannot want their consent 
violated. 

801
00:39:19,330 --> 00:39:21,610
It's it's logically impossible 
to want somebody's consent to 

802
00:39:21,610 --> 00:39:23,250
it. 
And so it builds a strong 

803
00:39:23,250 --> 00:39:28,330
foundation of reciprocal 
empathetic, you know, outlook on

804
00:39:28,330 --> 00:39:32,570
how you actually act with other 
people and have consensual 

805
00:39:32,570 --> 00:39:35,890
relationships. 
So I would say that that that is

806
00:39:35,890 --> 00:39:39,290
a little bit different from 
other authors. 

807
00:39:39,290 --> 00:39:42,770
You know for example on Rand and
Objectivism and rationalism or 

808
00:39:43,170 --> 00:39:45,770
Rothbard uses natural law 
theory, which I'm not a natural 

809
00:39:45,770 --> 00:39:49,010
law theorist, I I do you know 
take a divergent from there. 

810
00:39:49,010 --> 00:39:52,570
But I think that this type of 
thinking, this type of framing, 

811
00:39:52,570 --> 00:39:56,290
where I'm asking the person that
is the the reader to think about

812
00:39:56,290 --> 00:40:00,690
their own selves, to me that is 
the most effective way to get 

813
00:40:00,690 --> 00:40:04,570
people into this type of 
psychology and into this type of

814
00:40:04,570 --> 00:40:06,210
respect. 
Because you can. 

815
00:40:06,210 --> 00:40:09,450
You can tell someone all day, 
here's what the world is and 

816
00:40:09,450 --> 00:40:11,530
here's what you should think. 
And like Macy's did a great job 

817
00:40:11,530 --> 00:40:13,610
of it. 
Let me write every single brain 

818
00:40:13,610 --> 00:40:16,090
spill thing about everything I 
could possibly think about, you 

819
00:40:16,090 --> 00:40:18,970
know, in human action. 
But at the end of the day, if 

820
00:40:18,970 --> 00:40:21,170
that person you're talking to 
doesn't have that same 

821
00:40:21,170 --> 00:40:22,970
knowledge, worldview, 
experience, what good does it 

822
00:40:22,970 --> 00:40:24,410
do? 
They're not going to relate to 

823
00:40:24,410 --> 00:40:26,130
it. 
You have to get someone to 

824
00:40:26,130 --> 00:40:29,130
relate to these ethical 
principles on their own terms, 

825
00:40:29,130 --> 00:40:31,770
their own lived experience. 
And if you can do that, it's 

826
00:40:31,770 --> 00:40:35,360
going to be way more, you know, 
to me, meaningful and deep and 

827
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,200
lasting because they are 
actually going to relate to this

828
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,880
in their own view and their own,
OK, you know, I that's right. 

829
00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:44,800
I don't want my body to be 
violated by others. 

830
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,000
I don't want people to, you 
know, steal from me and and to 

831
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,840
come in the middle of the night 
and to stab me and all this 

832
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:49,560
other stuff. 
Right. 

833
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,080
It's way more lasting for 
someone to have that reflective 

834
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,240
process in my opinion, and to be
able to sit there and say, OK, I

835
00:40:57,240 --> 00:41:01,280
can see how this reciprocally if
they don't do this to me and I 

836
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,120
don't do this to them, then I'm 
actually going to have peace. 

837
00:41:04,540 --> 00:41:07,620
So you know that that's kind of 
where I, I take my stand and 

838
00:41:07,620 --> 00:41:10,460
kind of stick out from, you 
know, some of these other 

839
00:41:10,460 --> 00:41:13,780
potential lenses about thinking 
through the development of human

840
00:41:13,780 --> 00:41:16,500
ethics. 
What is the most important 

841
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:18,540
lesson you've learned from 
Auburn Herbert? 

842
00:41:19,660 --> 00:41:22,500
So, funny thing. 
And he's actually on this, this 

843
00:41:22,620 --> 00:41:27,420
cover here, he's like hammering 
out on that little pedestal. 

844
00:41:28,220 --> 00:41:33,060
So I actually didn't even have 
much anything to do with him or 

845
00:41:33,060 --> 00:41:36,980
any real knowledge of him until 
way later in my journey because 

846
00:41:37,660 --> 00:41:41,300
I was more so on the, I guess 
you could say, the Internet 

847
00:41:41,300 --> 00:41:44,220
voluntarius and the people who 
were really chugging away at 

848
00:41:44,220 --> 00:41:47,500
that between 2006. 
Yeah, 2006 and and 2010. 

849
00:41:47,780 --> 00:41:51,460
So like Neil, so, Larkin, Rose 
Mark Stevens and stuff like 

850
00:41:51,460 --> 00:41:52,820
that. 
And you know, going back to 

851
00:41:52,820 --> 00:41:56,920
even, you know, people from the 
Voluntarius, oh, I got a cameo 

852
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,080
back there where you know, I 
must speak out the best of 

853
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,560
Voluntarist magazine. 
A 299 Carl Wagner. 

854
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,560
So this, you know is a little 
bit of, you know, the the modern

855
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,280
voluntarist thought, you know, 
kind of encapsulated in this 

856
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,560
book. 
So Herbert, you know, wasn't 

857
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,790
really as much of a big 
influence on my journey until, 

858
00:42:17,790 --> 00:42:20,470
like I was like, oh, OK oh, and 
that's where that guy, oh, that 

859
00:42:20,470 --> 00:42:22,750
guy came up with this stuff. 
So for him it was just more 

860
00:42:22,750 --> 00:42:24,510
like, oh, OK. 
So he's the one who kind of 

861
00:42:24,510 --> 00:42:28,350
encapsulated the voluntariest, 
you know, thought process and 

862
00:42:28,350 --> 00:42:30,630
removing your consent from the 
state and, you know, the group, 

863
00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:32,830
the, you know, the voluntariest 
group that he was a part of. 

864
00:42:32,830 --> 00:42:34,950
And that's where that, you know,
coin turn comes from. 

865
00:42:35,270 --> 00:42:38,190
So that's my appreciation for 
him is is that him kind of 

866
00:42:38,190 --> 00:42:41,070
taking the ideology and and 
conceptualizing and giving it a 

867
00:42:41,070 --> 00:42:44,910
name? 
Yeah, he is the main motivation 

868
00:42:44,910 --> 00:42:47,590
behind the title for my next 
book, which I'm titling, 

869
00:42:47,590 --> 00:42:51,830
Domestic Imperialism. 
What he does is he makes a very 

870
00:42:51,830 --> 00:42:53,670
clear, concise argument against 
that. 

871
00:42:53,950 --> 00:42:57,550
You know this imperialism is 
certainly unjustifiable. 

872
00:42:57,550 --> 00:43:01,350
He's using the example of the 
British in Ireland if. 

873
00:43:01,790 --> 00:43:05,510
I recall that correctly and 
says, and by the way, this 

874
00:43:05,510 --> 00:43:09,190
principle also applies to 
domestic populations. 

875
00:43:09,350 --> 00:43:12,950
So you know what's really wrong 
for those British to coercively 

876
00:43:12,950 --> 00:43:16,070
impose their ideas on those in 
Zimbabwe? 

877
00:43:16,390 --> 00:43:19,870
Well, the fact that they're 
geographically very far from 

878
00:43:19,870 --> 00:43:22,310
Britain doesn't. 
What if it's my neighbor? 

879
00:43:22,750 --> 00:43:26,590
What if there's the closest 
person on planet Earth to me is 

880
00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:28,670
threatening me with violence if 
I don't? 

881
00:43:28,970 --> 00:43:31,810
Either chip in for this 
schooling scheme, chip in for 

882
00:43:31,810 --> 00:43:34,930
this infrastructure bill, or, 
you know, refuse to use these 

883
00:43:34,930 --> 00:43:37,970
drugs. 
He completely obliterates this, 

884
00:43:37,970 --> 00:43:41,570
you know, line between foreign 
imperialism bad but domestic. 

885
00:43:41,570 --> 00:43:44,250
Well, that's different 'cause 
you get a vote once every four 

886
00:43:44,250 --> 00:43:46,970
years. 
I love Herbert's work work, and 

887
00:43:46,970 --> 00:43:50,410
I am so glad you're keeping his 
message alive when it comes to 

888
00:43:50,410 --> 00:43:53,050
what Ludwig von Mises most 
important lesson you learn from 

889
00:43:53,050 --> 00:44:01,680
him. 
So with Macy's, his work on the 

890
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,560
deduction specifically, you 
know, past his a priori, which I

891
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:06,880
would say I have a disagreement 
with. 

892
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:11,560
With that aspect I you know I 
diverge on on the the 

893
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:16,670
abstraction of man but I do 
really value the deductions he 

894
00:44:16,670 --> 00:44:21,230
made past that a talking about 
human action specifically with 

895
00:44:21,270 --> 00:44:24,710
people acting in their self 
interests in order to meet their

896
00:44:24,990 --> 00:44:28,350
you know specific wants and 
needs and how that plays you 

897
00:44:28,350 --> 00:44:31,150
know on the broader scale of of 
the economic calculation. 

898
00:44:31,430 --> 00:44:35,150
So you know to me that that's 
where I think he's really 

899
00:44:35,630 --> 00:44:38,870
basically you know kind of 
taking the cake on explaining 

900
00:44:38,870 --> 00:44:42,030
all those different things. 
I mean he he's very verbose at 

901
00:44:42,030 --> 00:44:44,470
walking through here's every 
single thought of human action 

902
00:44:44,470 --> 00:44:46,630
when people are in the market 
and they're looking and 

903
00:44:46,630 --> 00:44:49,190
perceiving at every you know 
every other person and and 

904
00:44:49,190 --> 00:44:51,070
they're you know without all 
these different people 

905
00:44:51,070 --> 00:44:54,350
coordinating you know together 
there's having spontaneous order

906
00:44:54,910 --> 00:44:56,870
you know especially of course 
you know inspiring A Hayek 

907
00:44:56,870 --> 00:45:00,470
later. 
So I to me those foundations I 

908
00:45:00,470 --> 00:45:04,700
think are excellent and 
inspiring and, you know, great 

909
00:45:04,700 --> 00:45:08,180
economic foundation and way 
better, of course, than Adam 

910
00:45:08,180 --> 00:45:11,700
Smith, so. 
I remember, I think it was in a 

911
00:45:11,700 --> 00:45:16,380
book titled Bureaucracy, where 
Mesa said something it it was 

912
00:45:16,380 --> 00:45:17,980
just so short and beautiful, he 
goes. 

913
00:45:18,460 --> 00:45:23,540
If man's fallibility is a 
justification, is an argument in

914
00:45:23,620 --> 00:45:26,700
opposition to the free market, 
it must also be in opposition to

915
00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:28,940
statism. 
Or it it was just something so 

916
00:45:28,940 --> 00:45:32,020
brief like that where I just 
read it and I go, that's 

917
00:45:32,020 --> 00:45:33,900
interesting. 
Yes, people are fallible. 

918
00:45:34,220 --> 00:45:37,780
Well, who runs the state? 
Owls, plants, zebras. 

919
00:45:37,780 --> 00:45:41,220
Yeah, humans who we just 
conceded are fallible when we're

920
00:45:41,220 --> 00:45:42,860
talking about the voluntary 
sector. 

921
00:45:43,370 --> 00:45:47,490
There are just so many gems in 
In Mesus's work that I'm glad 

922
00:45:47,490 --> 00:45:50,250
that he made the cover of of 
your first one. 

923
00:45:51,130 --> 00:45:54,690
When it comes to Lysander 
Spooner, that's who this is. 

924
00:45:54,730 --> 00:45:57,370
Right at the very bottom. 
Yeah, at the at the bottom 

925
00:45:57,370 --> 00:46:00,650
middle, that's sponer. 
OK, yes, so he made the cover 

926
00:46:00,650 --> 00:46:03,690
well deserved. 
What is the most important 

927
00:46:03,690 --> 00:46:06,650
lesson the audience could learn 
from Lysander Spooner? 

928
00:46:07,620 --> 00:46:10,940
So Spooner was definitely one of
my favourites and definitely on 

929
00:46:10,940 --> 00:46:14,580
my top tier list even in my 
early days, because his 

930
00:46:14,580 --> 00:46:18,940
constitutional authority was 
just such an excellent critique 

931
00:46:19,260 --> 00:46:21,940
on the constitution. 
And of course very impressive 

932
00:46:21,940 --> 00:46:25,500
considering, you know, his time 
period in 1800s being so ahead 

933
00:46:25,500 --> 00:46:27,580
on this like hey, you know, you 
made this constitution, but we 

934
00:46:27,580 --> 00:46:30,700
didn't agree, right? 
So I I think that his 

935
00:46:30,700 --> 00:46:35,510
encapsulation on, you know, the 
the man being stuck in a 

936
00:46:35,510 --> 00:46:37,950
battlefield when it comes to 
voting is kind of a fun 

937
00:46:37,950 --> 00:46:41,230
encapsulation that I I kind of 
like that when it comes to 

938
00:46:41,230 --> 00:46:43,190
political action. 
He sticks out from other 

939
00:46:43,190 --> 00:46:46,510
voluntary as saying that the act
of voting in and of itself is 

940
00:46:46,510 --> 00:46:49,870
not support of the state. 
If you're just trying to stop 

941
00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:51,950
them from literally killing you 
or robbing you. 

942
00:46:52,310 --> 00:46:56,310
I I 'cause I think that that is 
a justifiable form of 

943
00:46:56,310 --> 00:46:58,840
self-defense. 
I don't think that you know, 

944
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,640
there and that's that is like a 
big split with involuntarism is 

945
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,600
you know, voluntarists who are 
against all political action 

946
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:07,760
categorically, you know, none of
that whatsoever. 

947
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,960
And then those who think, yeah, 
voting in self-defense, like if 

948
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,520
you can alleviate any type of 
government theft, murder, 

949
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,590
whatever, do it. 
I fall into the latter camp. 

950
00:47:15,750 --> 00:47:19,430
I think that if we can end wars 
with a vote just because I don't

951
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:21,870
care, it's like I don't want 
people being mass murdered. 

952
00:47:21,870 --> 00:47:25,350
It's like anything to stop that 
you know, is ethical to me. 

953
00:47:25,870 --> 00:47:29,350
Anything to stop people being 
stolen from again, that's that's

954
00:47:29,350 --> 00:47:30,750
ethical. 
You're not murdering more people

955
00:47:30,750 --> 00:47:31,670
to stop. 
You're saying, oh hey, we're 

956
00:47:31,670 --> 00:47:33,550
going to stop having this tax. 
Whatever. 

957
00:47:33,550 --> 00:47:34,510
Fine. 
You know what I mean? 

958
00:47:34,510 --> 00:47:38,320
So I don't I don't see that as 
inherently supporting the state 

959
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,080
or saying it's legitimate. 
I see it as you know basically 

960
00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:45,160
doing whatever you can to try to
stop the theft and violence that

961
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,120
is the state. 
So you know I think that's 

962
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:50,240
that's good you know nerd them 
debate there. 

963
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:54,000
You know, it's actually within 
the the voluntary sector and a 

964
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,440
lot of the the mainline ones, 
especially in in this grouping, 

965
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,000
you know, 
involuntariesvoluntaries.com, 

966
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,320
they were definitely more 
apolitical teetering on pacifist

967
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,020
people. 
So, you know, there's definitely

968
00:48:08,020 --> 00:48:11,620
some risks as among those 
people, you know, whether that's

969
00:48:11,620 --> 00:48:15,380
that's OK or not, but. 
So I'm trying to remember, 

970
00:48:15,380 --> 00:48:17,620
because I've read the 
Constitution of No Authority 

971
00:48:17,620 --> 00:48:22,340
some time ago, the argument is 
that there is no treason when 

972
00:48:22,340 --> 00:48:25,020
you don't obey the state because
you never agreed to it. 

973
00:48:25,020 --> 00:48:28,140
So when we're calling people 
treasonous for not blindly 

974
00:48:28,140 --> 00:48:31,020
obeying the mass murder in 
government, did I just make that

975
00:48:31,020 --> 00:48:33,140
up or is that his general 
argument? 

976
00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:37,130
What does he mean by no treason?
I I'm not. 

977
00:48:37,130 --> 00:48:38,610
I'd have to relook at that 
myself. 

978
00:48:38,610 --> 00:48:41,290
I I thought that that was what 
it is that you said. 

979
00:48:41,290 --> 00:48:43,850
But I'm having a brain fart and 
I don't remember exactly. 

980
00:48:43,850 --> 00:48:47,770
I'd have to like revisit that to
say whether no treason, as in 

981
00:48:48,090 --> 00:48:50,410
the act of rejecting the 
Constitution, is not treasonous.

982
00:48:50,410 --> 00:48:53,770
I thought that's what it was my 
assumption, but I'd have to 

983
00:48:53,770 --> 00:48:58,130
double check that. 
I want to ask about Frederick 

984
00:48:58,130 --> 00:48:59,930
Bastiat. 
I just got to read my favorite 

985
00:48:59,970 --> 00:49:01,890
Bastiat quote and then I'm going
to let you take over. 

986
00:49:02,130 --> 00:49:07,550
But on page 49, Bastiat says. 
Please understand of his book 

987
00:49:07,550 --> 00:49:09,750
The Law. 
Please understand that I do not 

988
00:49:09,750 --> 00:49:12,790
dispute their right to invent 
social combinations, to 

989
00:49:12,790 --> 00:49:15,870
advertise them, to advocate 
them, and to try them upon 

990
00:49:15,870 --> 00:49:17,790
themselves at their own expense 
and risk. 

991
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:21,910
But I do dispute their right to 
impose the plans upon us by law,

992
00:49:21,990 --> 00:49:26,070
by force, and to compel us to 
pay for them with our taxes. 

993
00:49:26,500 --> 00:49:29,780
It was so vitally important for 
me to hear something like that 

994
00:49:30,020 --> 00:49:34,260
when I thought that government 
was equating with society and 

995
00:49:34,260 --> 00:49:37,220
anyone who was anti government 
is kind of against society in 

996
00:49:37,220 --> 00:49:38,980
general. 
What's wrong with people getting

997
00:49:38,980 --> 00:49:42,100
together to do things? 
Bastiat makes that so crystal 

998
00:49:42,100 --> 00:49:45,380
clear that that I just got so 
much out of him. 

999
00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:49,380
What are the most important 
lessons you learned from the 

1000
00:49:49,380 --> 00:49:52,380
work of Frederick Bastiat? 
Yeah, his his law. 

1001
00:49:52,380 --> 00:49:54,980
The law is obviously the the 
flagship there. 

1002
00:49:54,980 --> 00:49:59,370
It's it's it's pretty pretty 
great the his quote with you 

1003
00:49:59,370 --> 00:50:03,330
know socialism and saying that 
the socialists would accuse you 

1004
00:50:03,330 --> 00:50:07,850
of not wanting to have bread or 
religion or or anything else 

1005
00:50:07,850 --> 00:50:09,490
just because you don't want the 
government doing it. 

1006
00:50:09,490 --> 00:50:12,210
I thought that is just such a 
strong encapsulation, especially

1007
00:50:12,210 --> 00:50:13,930
tied back to what you're saying 
with the compared to what? 

1008
00:50:14,290 --> 00:50:17,050
Just calling out people who say,
oh, OK, well, just because I 

1009
00:50:17,050 --> 00:50:19,170
don't want the government doing 
this doesn't mean, oh, I want no

1010
00:50:19,170 --> 00:50:22,840
food or I want no security, you 
know, or whatever it is that 

1011
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:24,640
they're saying. 
Oh, well, you know, if you don't

1012
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:26,280
have the government, then you 
have nothing, you know. 

1013
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,680
So I thought that his scathing 
critique of the socialists 

1014
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,680
there, and I love how it's of 
course encapsulated as 

1015
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:34,360
socialists, 'cause that's, you 
know, that's who's facing the 

1016
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,320
time stands up, you know, 
throughout the test of time. 

1017
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:40,320
And it's always the same thing. 
People, you know, you argue in 

1018
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,640
the Internet and you say, hey, 
maybe the government shouldn't 

1019
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,400
do this thing like, oh, you 
don't want roads. 

1020
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:49,420
You know, like so it's it's 
something that is is so 

1021
00:50:49,420 --> 00:50:52,300
incredibly timeless and that's 
probably one of my favorite 

1022
00:50:52,620 --> 00:50:56,140
statements out of there. 
It's unbelievable to find out 

1023
00:50:56,180 --> 00:50:58,900
that that was written in what, 
like 1850? 

1024
00:50:58,900 --> 00:51:02,140
I think he wrote the law just 
something like forever ago, like

1025
00:51:02,140 --> 00:51:04,420
right after the French 
Revolution. 

1026
00:51:04,420 --> 00:51:09,700
So yes, Jack, remind us where we
can find you and where can we 

1027
00:51:09,700 --> 00:51:11,540
purchase the book? 
Sure. 

1028
00:51:11,540 --> 00:51:18,220
So the books here that you can 
see do a little zoom here. 

1029
00:51:18,460 --> 00:51:21,340
So these three books that we 
were just talking about in the 

1030
00:51:21,340 --> 00:51:23,660
philosophical Voluntarism, 
Vision for Libertarian Future, 

1031
00:51:23,660 --> 00:51:26,700
Definitive Guided, Libertarian 
Voluntarism, those books are all

1032
00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:29,460
printed on demand through 
Amazon. 

1033
00:51:29,460 --> 00:51:31,380
So they're only in print. 
They're not in digital. 

1034
00:51:31,380 --> 00:51:34,180
People say why not digital? 
I say because these artworks are

1035
00:51:34,180 --> 00:51:36,020
super cool and they make for a 
great display piece. 

1036
00:51:36,020 --> 00:51:37,340
When you're done, you're going 
to want them. 

1037
00:51:37,620 --> 00:51:39,140
So that's why I keep them in 
print. 

1038
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,400
But and they're not that hefty 
and you know, people like, oh, I

1039
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,600
got a big bookshelf like these, 
These can slip, slip in anywhere

1040
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:46,760
you're good. 
So you can get them, you know, 

1041
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:48,800
just looking up on Amazon. 
Of course, if you go to my 

1042
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:53,360
website, Jack JCKV as in 
Voluntariest, Lloyd LOYD, Jack 

1043
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,040
V, lloyd.com, I have links there
to pretty much everything that I

1044
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:01,320
do to some degree, whether it's 
the non fiction books or my 

1045
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,560
comic book series, which I'm 
super excited about. 

1046
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:06,120
We actually just finished the 
remaster on the Origins arc, 

1047
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,330
which is 6 issues and there's a 
trade paperback for that and 

1048
00:52:09,330 --> 00:52:11,410
they'll be up soon enough. 
You know the first two issues 

1049
00:52:11,410 --> 00:52:13,930
are are still waiting pending 
queue a placement on the 

1050
00:52:13,930 --> 00:52:15,810
website. 
But in the meantime you can 

1051
00:52:15,810 --> 00:52:19,370
check out that comic book series
on Amazon Digital and on Indie 

1052
00:52:19,370 --> 00:52:22,970
Planet and do all kinds of other
cool stuff too. 

1053
00:52:22,970 --> 00:52:26,770
I mean, we have a music video 
coming out I think within about 

1054
00:52:26,770 --> 00:52:29,530
a week and a half. 
The next music video is called 

1055
00:52:29,530 --> 00:52:31,970
Break the Great Reset. 
This one's going to feature a 

1056
00:52:31,970 --> 00:52:35,610
philosopher, so I worked as 
producer on that and writer 

1057
00:52:35,610 --> 00:52:38,190
slash, you know, costume prep 
person. 

1058
00:52:38,750 --> 00:52:41,310
So that is going to be a fun 
music video coming out talking 

1059
00:52:41,310 --> 00:52:44,830
about the great reset and 
mocking, of course, the Evil 

1060
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:46,630
World Economic Forum and Klaus 
Schwab. 

1061
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:50,790
So I'm super excited for that. 
And we have some other cool 

1062
00:52:50,790 --> 00:52:52,510
things come out too. 
Later on this year, we're going 

1063
00:52:52,510 --> 00:52:56,070
to do another campaign for the 
next Suit Saga, the next art 

1064
00:52:56,070 --> 00:52:57,430
called Suit Saga and 
Voluntarist. 

1065
00:52:57,710 --> 00:53:00,350
And then we have a top secret 
project that we've had in the 

1066
00:53:00,350 --> 00:53:02,910
works for a year coming out 
January 1st, 2024. 

1067
00:53:02,910 --> 00:53:04,710
So you'll find out what that is 
soon enough. 

1068
00:53:04,710 --> 00:53:07,060
But I think, I think everyone's 
going to eat it. 

1069
00:53:07,060 --> 00:53:08,740
They're going to love it or hate
it or or they're going to be 

1070
00:53:08,740 --> 00:53:10,020
like, Oh my gosh, what the heck 
is this? 

1071
00:53:10,020 --> 00:53:11,620
And then they're going to open 
it up and laugh. 

1072
00:53:11,620 --> 00:53:14,580
So that's all I can say. 
I can't say the specifics, but 

1073
00:53:14,580 --> 00:53:15,980
it's going to be something 
really funny. 

1074
00:53:17,060 --> 00:53:19,300
Thank you to everyone for 
watching Keith and I don't tread

1075
00:53:19,300 --> 00:53:21,260
on anyone in the Libertarian 
Institute. 

1076
00:53:21,420 --> 00:53:23,020
Jack Lloyd, thank you for your 
time, brother. 

1077
00:53:23,380 --> 00:53:24,860
Oh, it's my pleasure. 
Always you, Keith.