1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,960 Welcome to Keith Knight, Don't Tread on Anyone and a 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,760 libertarian institute. Today I'm joined by Jacob 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,160 Hubert, the president of the Liberty Justice Center. 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,680 Mr. Hubert, where is the best place for people to find the 5 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:14,640 work you do at the Liberty Justice Center? 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:19,280 You can read all about our work at libertyjusticecenter.org. 7 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:25,280 What was the Foreign Advisory Controlled Applications Act of 8 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,200 April 2024? This is a law that Congress 9 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:34,920 passed and President Biden signed in April that effectively 10 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:40,360 bans TikTok as of January 19th, 2025. 11 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:43,000 The law technically doesn't ban it. 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:49,040 It says that TikTok has to be divested in such a way that it 13 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:55,600 no longer has any connection to any company based in or or 14 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:01,480 formed in China because China is a foreign adversary. 15 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:06,160 And as a practical matter, that means it's a ban because TikTok 16 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,600 cannot be separated from its parent company. 17 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,760 It's unique content recommendation engine that 18 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,400 connects people to content they might be interested in, was 19 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:23,000 developed in and is maintained in China so that if you severed 20 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,960 AUS TikTok from that, it just wouldn't be the same platform 21 00:01:26,960 --> 00:01:30,680 anymore. So TikTok has said credibly that 22 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:33,960 they can't divest. It's just if it takes effect, 23 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:38,000 it's just going to be a ban. And the ban means you won't be 24 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,200 able to get it in US app stores anymore, and they won't be able 25 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:45,760 to host anything on servers based in the US anymore. 26 00:01:46,320 --> 00:01:47,800 But that's not all this law does. 27 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:53,400 This law also says that in the future, the president may 28 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:58,200 determine that any other social media platform is directed or 29 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:03,040 controlled by a foreign adversary country and it can and 30 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,560 declare that it's a threat to national security and ban that. 31 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,360 And so this law isn't just about banning TikTok. 32 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,320 It's about banning other platforms the government doesn't 33 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,560 like if it can come up with some tie to a foreign government and 34 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:20,360 say it's a threat to national security. 35 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,960 Historically, when it comes to what the government considers an 36 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,920 adversary, we've had a number of domestic groups that have been 37 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:32,240 considered adversaries. Definitions continuously change. 38 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:35,720 There were more than 100,000 people kidnapped in the Second 39 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:39,160 World War based on their ethnicity, German, Japanese, and 40 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,360 Italian Americans or something like this. 41 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:45,480 How does the government or how do courts determine who is an 42 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,440 adversary and who isn't? Well, the law says, and if I 43 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,680 recall correctly, it's who you might expect. 44 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,640 And I think it's, you know, China, North Korea, Iran, 45 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,600 Venezuela, probably Cuba. I think that might be it. 46 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,200 It's, you know, it's the big ones that they always bring up 47 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,040 as our major foreign adversaries, supposedly. 48 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:10,200 Yes, when it comes to Byte Dance Limited, is the claim that this 49 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:16,080 company is physically in China? Or is the claim that Xi Jinping 50 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,000 and his party are actually controlling this company Byte 51 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:23,200 Dance, which created or owns TikTok? 52 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,480 It's all hypothetical. So their offices are in Beijing, 53 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:35,920 they're in China, but there's no evidence that China has actually 54 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:41,160 told TikTok to hand over users data or has told TikTok what 55 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,840 post to promote or suppress or anything like that. 56 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,560 In trying to justify this, the government can only say that, 57 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:53,760 well, someday maybe China will do this because after all, they 58 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,920 are in China and China can tell companies there what to do. 59 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,880 So maybe they'll do something nefarious involving American 60 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:05,400 users data you don't know what. Or maybe they will manipulate 61 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,960 what Americans see in some way that we can't predict someday. 62 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,680 So therefore we need to shut the entire platform down now. 63 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,440 It's incredible you see how insecure the current 64 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,760 administration is. Or maybe it's multiple 65 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,560 administrations. When the government controls K 66 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,040 through 12 education, the government heavily funds and 67 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:33,080 subsidizes controls the literature at universities. 68 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,640 They have a corporate press which is constantly favorable to 69 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:39,000 the regime, and they're terrified people might 70 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,800 voluntarily download a free app that allows them to access tons 71 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,280 of free information. The very, you know, education 72 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:48,680 that governments pretend to offer us. 73 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,560 What is Based Politics Inc versus Garland? 74 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,840 So that's our lawsuit challenging the TikTok ban. 75 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,560 We represent Base Politics, which is a nonprofit that uses 76 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:07,320 social media, especially TikTok, to connect with young people and 77 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:12,800 give them ideas related to free markets and individual liberty. 78 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,640 You might have seen their founders accounts, Hannah Cox 79 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,240 and Brad Palumbo. They're out there a lot on 80 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,120 Twitter and then especially on TikTok, and they found that 81 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,240 TikTok is really the place where they can connect with a Gen. 82 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,840 Z audience that they can't reach anywhere else. 83 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,080 So many Gen. Z people really are only on 84 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,080 TikTok. They're not using Facebook and 85 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,360 they're not getting their news from other sources either. 86 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,520 They're not even getting it from traditional media and they're 87 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:41,720 not getting it from other social media platforms. 88 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,480 So this is the place to be if you want to reach that audience 89 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,320 with your ideas. And they've been very successful 90 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,560 at it there. They've had numerous videos with 91 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,240 well over 1,000,000 views news and you know, they talk about 92 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:58,040 like, oh, Communist China is going to control messages on 93 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,680 this platform. Well, they're preaching 94 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,080 individual liberty and free markets and all kinds of things 95 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:06,520 that you would think the Chinese government would not want to 96 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:08,960 promote. But and they're being very 97 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,240 successful at it and they won't be able to do that anymore. 98 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,400 They won't be able to reach this audience at all anywhere if this 99 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,440 ban is takes effect as scheduled on January 19th. 100 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:27,000 Interesting, I did not know that Brad and Hannah were semi 101 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,640 involved in this at all. That is very encouraging to 102 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,840 hear. I really do like both of them 103 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,560 when it comes to the domestic population. 104 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,200 So right now a lot of people are in the mindset of we got this, 105 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:42,200 but we lost the terror war of 20 years. 106 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,720 We thought that was going to be a great victory and really unite 107 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,440 the nation. So now we got to find a 108 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,320 different enemy and now it's going to be China, billion 109 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,920 people, 5000 year history. This is a really good enemy that 110 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,600 we can take on. How do you get people out of the 111 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,120 mindset of we need to take on this adversary and get them 112 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,280 looking at how this violates the rights of the domestic 113 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,320 population, Americans which they claim to protect? 114 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,400 Right, you should be against this ban regardless of what you 115 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,520 think of China. I mean I of course I don't like 116 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,400 the Chinese government, the Communist Party of China. 117 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,840 These are definitely bad people who do very bad things. 118 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,720 But that doesn't have really anything to do with Americans 119 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,920 right to use TikTok. TikTok is a Chinese based 120 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:30,000 company, and as a result of that, the Chinese government can 121 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,000 theoretically exert control over it in various ways. 122 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,960 But that's not really relevant to Americans who choose to use 123 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:39,720 TikTok. And we were talking about 124 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,600 shutting down TikTok. We're talking about shutting 125 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:49,760 down 170 million Americans who use TikTok to share or hear 126 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,240 speech, typically with other Americans. 127 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,600 And you hear all this about, oh, it's a, you know, an organ for 128 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,080 Chinese propaganda. People aren't consuming Chinese 129 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,000 propaganda on TikTok. They're consuming the speech of 130 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,400 other Americans about all kinds of things. 131 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,080 Of course, you have very trivial things, cat videos and dances 132 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:15,680 and whatever, But you also have people advancing serious ideas 133 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:20,080 there. And a major motivation we know 134 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:25,040 for enacting this ban was not anything to do with the Chinese 135 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,680 government. It actually was because people 136 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:32,039 in Congress don't like some of the things that people have been 137 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:34,520 saying on TikTok or they think they might say on it in the 138 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,919 future. Mitt Romney, for example, said 139 00:08:37,919 --> 00:08:42,000 that the reason this got so much support in Congress was in part 140 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,920 because there's so much more talk about Palestinians on 141 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,160 TikTok than on other social media platforms. 142 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,040 That doesn't that doesn't have anything to do with China. 143 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,400 It has to do with some other issue where the likes of Mitt 144 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:01,920 Romney want to suppress dissent from the ideas they consider 145 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,440 right. And even now, in defending this 146 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,840 in court, the government comes forward and says as one of its 147 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:12,240 primary justifications that we need to shut this down because 148 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:16,640 with China could promote or suppress certain content in a 149 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:21,120 way that would, you know, affect the democratic process or affect 150 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,600 public opinion and in a way that goes against the US government's 151 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,320 interests. Well, the whole point of the 1st 152 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,000 Amendment is to stop the government from passing laws to 153 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:35,280 suppress speech that it thinks goes against its interests. 154 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,480 The fact that you guys think this goes against your interests 155 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,520 isn't a reason to shut it down. It's a reason why it's 156 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:46,040 unconstitutional. And, you know, as far as China 157 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,680 getting people's data, maybe, well, any user can make the 158 00:09:49,680 --> 00:09:53,760 choice to not download TikTok and make sure that nobody in 159 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,840 China gets their data as a result. 160 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,200 Just as they make choices about whether they're going to use 161 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:04,280 Facebook or Google or YouTube or whatever, in which case their 162 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,680 data may be vulnerable to being accessed by the US government, 163 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,840 which some people might think poses a more direct and 164 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,520 immediate threat to themselves and the Chinese government. 165 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,360 Yeah, that's an incredible 1. They really have to watch out in 166 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,000 case we voluntarily download an app and give them our 167 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,160 information while the NSA lies about spying on us 168 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,120 indiscriminately all the time and then forces us to fund it 169 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,680 with our tax dollars. Just completely absurd. 170 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,680 What is the angle that you're planning to take in this case 171 00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:39,240 when you're arguing with the Supreme Court? 172 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,280 Is it the same or different than how you speak to the public in 173 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:44,920 general? I mean, it's pretty much the 174 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,560 same in that it's a really straightforward case. 175 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,880 This is a suppression of free speech. 176 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,000 It's shutting down a platform where people can express ideas 177 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,200 and reach a unique audience. And that, you know, but just on 178 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,520 its face should violate the First Amendment. 179 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,440 Then you have the fact that these people who passed it said 180 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,200 openly that they wanted to suppress speech based on its 181 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,600 ideas. That by itself should be the end 182 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,080 of this thing. You have the fact that it's a 183 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,600 prior restraint on speech. It's it doesn't punish speech 184 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,480 after the fact. It stops speech from ever 185 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,920 happening. Well, that is like, you know, 186 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:26,240 almost automatic the invalidation if you're imposing 187 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,800 a prior restraint on speech. And yes, the Supreme Court has 188 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:36,400 said in the past that you might be able to suppress speech for 189 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:40,680 national security reasons. The court has always said that 190 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:45,080 that would only be acceptable to stop an immediate threat like, 191 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,600 you know, to thwart an imminent attack. 192 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,240 And of course, you don't have that here at all. 193 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,920 You have just the theoretical possibility that China might do 194 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,480 something that the government doesn't like. 195 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:04,680 So, yeah, it's it's it's a pretty straightforward argument. 196 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:10,000 And it's surprising really that the lower court that heard this, 197 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:15,040 the US Court of Appeals for the DC Circuit didn't accept that. 198 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:20,200 They recognized that this imposes a content based 199 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:22,960 restriction on speech. That is, the government is 200 00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:28,720 singling out a particular speech based on its content, based on 201 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:30,560 the fact that it's on TikTok. And then, of course, we would 202 00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:34,680 also say based on their desire to suppress this speech that 203 00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:37,520 they said they want to suppress, and it said it should get the 204 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,600 highest level of First Amendment scrutiny. 205 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,320 And then it just said, well, it actually passes it because, 206 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,680 well, the government invoked national security. 207 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:49,680 And, you know, we're not national security experts. 208 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,960 We have to be deferential to the government in this context. 209 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,440 And. Well, yeah, TikTok has said 210 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,440 there are other ways the government could address its 211 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,840 concerns. And TikTok came forward to try 212 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,120 to make a deal with the government where there would be, 213 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,440 you know, third party protections in place to protect 214 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,840 people's data and all that sort of thing. 215 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:11,560 And the government rejected all of that. 216 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,680 And, you know, if the government has a less restrictive 217 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:17,800 alternative, it's supposed to take it under the 1st Amendment, 218 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:19,840 and they weren't willing to do that. 219 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,800 And the court here just said, well, they say that's not good 220 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,640 enough. They don't really explain why in 221 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:27,680 any detail, but they say that's not good enough. 222 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:30,280 And so we're just going to defer to them on that. 223 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,640 And of course, that's really disturbing that the government 224 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,360 could just basically say the words national security, submit 225 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:41,680 a few declarations from government officials where they 226 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:45,040 say, yeah, we really need to do this without a lot of detail. 227 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,600 And that would be enough for a court. 228 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:49,920 You know, another thing the government tried to do in the 229 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,160 lower court, they when they filed their brief with the 230 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,440 court, they submitted these three declarations from federal 231 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,480 officials, but they did it with many paragraphs of those 232 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,960 declarations blacked out. And then they also blacked out 233 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,840 many pages of their brief that they filed with the court. 234 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:13,760 And they, they said that they're going to file the unredacted 235 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,880 versions of those things with the court and the court can look 236 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,280 at that. But this is classified. 237 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,560 And so nobody else should get to see this, including the 238 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,000 attorneys for the other side. And so the court should consider 239 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:30,760 this in, in upholding our ban, but you guys can't see it and 240 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:32,600 therefore you and you guys can't challenge it. 241 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:39,000 And fortunately the the lower court said that it didn't rely 242 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,880 on the things that were hidden from us. 243 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,360 But it's quite audacious of the government's want to suppress 244 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,880 speech on a massive scale and then not even let you know why 245 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,200 or give you the opportunity to challenge their supposed 246 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,320 evidence. But the details of that wouldn't 247 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,480 matter anyway because they don't claim there's an imminent 248 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,200 threat. And that's what you need if 249 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,160 you're going to invoke national security. 250 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:06,480 Is there, I know less than anything about the law, so this 251 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,040 might sound like an ignorant question. 252 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,960 Is there any way that this could, there could be an 253 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,760 antitrust angle here? All I heard about for years was 254 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:19,000 that the social media companies are monopolies also. 255 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,520 Now we need to outlaw a competitor. 256 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,440 Well, two minutes ago it was dangerous oligopolies that have 257 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,400 too much power. So then you get a competitor who 258 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,600 was such a big competitor. Now you're afraid of it. 259 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,280 Now you want to ban it. Is there any way you could say 260 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:39,160 that it would be an antitrust violation to outlaw a competitor 261 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,160 in an industry that only has three or four big players? 262 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,560 I'm not an antitrust expert, but I think in general, if the 263 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:49,960 government does something to help prop up a monopoly and 264 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,480 that's, that's okay, right? That's the, the government is, 265 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:56,400 of course, the government is a monopoly and it and all the time 266 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,280 it does things to create monopolies and cartels and prop 267 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,400 them up. So unfortunately, antitrust laws 268 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,280 probably wouldn't work to the good in this situation. 269 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,360 And of course, we know that these people don't care per SE 270 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,320 about monopolies or concentration. 271 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,000 They really care about is what they can control. 272 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,200 And a lot of times, of course, the government prefers fewer 273 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,480 competitors in any kind of market because that's just, you 274 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,480 know, that's easier to control when you have one party or a few 275 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:29,400 parties to deal with, especially when you're talking about 276 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,520 manipulating speech. You know, another point on the 277 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,080 law I might mention that's on our side. 278 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,640 Something we've raised with the court is that the Supreme Court 279 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:42,880 has actually said that you have a right to obtain a foreign 280 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,680 communist propaganda, like from a foreign government. 281 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,200 There was a law passed many decades ago where they said, 282 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,680 well, if you get sent communist propaganda from a communist 283 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:58,520 country, the post office will hold that and then send you a 284 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,520 card informing you that you have been sent this propaganda. 285 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,280 And if you want to receive it, then you check a box on that and 286 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,040 you give that back to the post office and then they'll give you 287 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,040 your propaganda. And the Supreme Court said, no, 288 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,200 that's a barrier to communication that violates the 289 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,640 First Amendment. You can hear any ideas you want 290 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,640 and you can't put extra steps in the way of certain ideas. 291 00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:24,520 So even if TikTok were pushing straight communist propaganda, 292 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,160 which it isn't this, the 1st amendment would still protect it 293 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:33,480 under a Supreme Court precedent. And they act as if TikTok is 294 00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:37,600 like a thing that you turn on and it just plays one TikTok 295 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:40,640 into every household. They don't address the fact that 296 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,600 there's a million channels to subscribe to and you can block 297 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,160 channels. You can only watch the ones you 298 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,520 sub to. There's it's so empowering. 299 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:52,840 If you compare it to the cable that I used to have like $120.00 300 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,920 a month for a ton of junk that I ended up canceling. 301 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,840 This costs $0.00 and zero cents and gives me more access to 302 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,280 productive information than I ever could have imagined from 303 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,760 more great minds and even people who don't have TikTok accounts. 304 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,600 John J Mearsheimer, I can't imagine he has a tick tock 305 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,960 account, but he has a ton of people making tick tocks of his 306 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:15,720 work. He's much older, the younger 307 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,680 generation. There are so many benefits to 308 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:20,440 this. I can just imagine explaining 309 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,520 this to my great grandpa as he's escaping the Austro Hungarian 310 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,520 Empire in the First World War, that one day you'll be able to 311 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,840 communicate to millions or billions of people across the 312 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:32,800 world. The average person will be 313 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,120 empowered. Not just the establishments that 314 00:18:35,120 --> 00:18:38,680 have access to the newspapers and buy ink by the barrel, but 315 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:40,320 the average person will be empowered. 316 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,320 The concept that the American government in the land of the 317 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,320 free would ban something like this that's so many millions of 318 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,960 Americans benefit it from, it's just absolutely psychotic. 319 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:55,000 Do you have any statistics on or any idea of the number of people 320 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:58,400 who are self-employed through TikTok who just use it as their 321 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:01,800 primary way of getting their voice out there and, you know, 322 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:05,640 gaining it monetary income? I don't have those statistics 323 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,360 off hand, but I do know that lots of people do make their 324 00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:12,000 living through TikTok. So this not only is going to be 325 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,680 an unprecedented suppression of free speech, it's also going to 326 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:20,160 destroy the livelihoods of countless thousands, no doubt of 327 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,920 of people. It, it really is extraordinary 328 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:25,960 in that way. You know, the government will 329 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,640 say, well, you can still say whatever you want. 330 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,560 You just, you go, you go do YouTube Shorts or Facebook reels 331 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,800 or or whatever. But of course, you can't reach 332 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:38,800 the same audience in those places. 333 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,640 And a TikTok really is extraordinary in its ability to 334 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,920 know who is going to be receptive to your message and 335 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,600 connect you to those people. And it seems like I don't use 336 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,760 it, but it it seems like from what I hear from people, it's 337 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,720 really good at just catering to what is going to be interesting 338 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,600 to you, including things that you maybe didn't. 339 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,520 Wouldn't have thought to look up yourself because you haven't 340 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,600 heard of them, but yet somehow, based on your patterns, it's 341 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,320 good at predicting that. And I suppose some people find 342 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,600 that sort of mind reading a little bit disturbing. 343 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,880 But many people find it to be a great service, and they should 344 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,920 be allowed to take advantage of that service if they want to, 345 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,280 whether it's coming from a company in China or anywhere 346 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,880 else. And for those who find it 347 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:29,360 disturbing, uninstall the app takes what, 3045 seconds? 348 00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:31,600 We have to wait for the government to come in and do 349 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,960 basically everything. I think that was JD Vance's 350 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,120 point when he was on Joe Rogan's show. 351 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:40,640 He goes, we need to really step up the regulation of social 352 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,680 media cause what's happening on the screen are about 10,000 353 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,720 things that your brain is engaged with, but you only know 354 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,760 about two of them. What do you think about the 355 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,680 argument that there is such an information asymmetry between 356 00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:57,720 these content producers and the content viewers that the state 357 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,440 needs to step in and be the mediator, making sure that the 358 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,160 masses aren't exploited by the companies? 359 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,240 Well, what? Why would we trust the 360 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,360 government to decide what purveyors of information we 361 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,200 received which we don't? We know the government is going 362 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,560 to exercise that power in a way that excuse things to support 363 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,280 the government's narratives on things and suppress dissenting 364 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,480 narratives. That's expressly what they're 365 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,760 doing here and what we would expect the government to do in 366 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,200 any situation like that. And, you know, as far as 367 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,920 consumer awareness goes, I think people are pretty aware that all 368 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,720 of these platforms use algorithms to manipulate what 369 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,880 they see in various ways, whether that's in choosing 370 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,240 advertising for them and choosing what information they 371 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:50,880 see or don't see. And people have become good 372 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,080 consumers in a sense that if you, if you want completely free 373 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,840 and unmoderated discussion, people are pretty aware that you 374 00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:58,480 could go to X and get that there. 375 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,840 If you prefer to have things more curated to your delicate 376 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,880 sensibilities, there are other platforms that will do that for 377 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,320 you. And people know that with their 378 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,960 cell phones, they are, they're giving away their locations 379 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,320 through various apps and giving away information about their 380 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,960 purchases and all kinds of stuff like that. 381 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,440 Not everybody knows the full extent, no doubt, but I think 382 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,840 people are pretty savvy now and know that a lot of this is going 383 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,720 on and by a large, people just choose to go on using things 384 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,680 anyway. I know all this and you know, 385 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,800 part of me would rather not share my information with 386 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:39,120 Google, but at the end of, well, I want to use Google Maps and I 387 00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:44,000 want to use watch YouTube videos and I'm willing to pay that cost 388 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:48,040 to get this service and that should be my choice to make, not 389 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,440 the government's. And of course, if the if the 390 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,080 issue really is information asymmetry, well, fine, give 391 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,360 people more information, information inform people that 392 00:22:56,360 --> 00:22:58,280 this is going on think they don't know. 393 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,640 That would be a way to address this that doesn't just shut down 394 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:07,720 everybody's speech, which is like the most extreme response 395 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,480 that you could have to this exactly He. 396 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,240 Said this on the Joe Rogan Experience which is like the 397 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,280 second most watched podcast in the English speaking language. 398 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,600 Hey, there's a ton of info we don't have. 399 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,320 Please tell us. I mean, surely you're smart 400 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,000 enough to know enough to regulate it. 401 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:26,360 So surely you could tell us and give us a fair warning telling 402 00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:29,600 us to not walk off this Cliff. Could you imagine if he actually 403 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,760 believed that information asymmetry justified regulation? 404 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,840 Jacob, you can't buy a car because you don't really know 405 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,040 how it's made. What's going on in that car is 406 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,560 so beyond what you understand. I'm not going to let you buy it. 407 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,160 You don't understand the complexities of your computer, 408 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,360 so I'm not going to let you buy one of those because you won't 409 00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:48,480 know what to do with it. You don't know how houses are 410 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,400 made, so I'm going to stop you from buying those. 411 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,880 My heavens. Thank God he just says this 412 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,080 nonsense and doesn't actually believe it. 413 00:23:55,400 --> 00:24:00,480 When you look at something like the Mises Institute has all 414 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,080 these videos, this is the free online education. 415 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,320 This is right on TikTok. Stefan Molyneux, also one of my 416 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,520 heroes, has a ton of free information. 417 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,480 This guy has researched this stuff. 418 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,760 Even if you hate him, let's hear the bad ideas and exchange. 419 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,720 You know why we think they're right, why they think they're 420 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,640 wrong. Not to mention, I have my own 421 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:26,040 TikTok that I upload stuff to. It's just so psychotic that they 422 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,320 want to forcibly stop people from engaging in mutually 423 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,760 beneficial information exchanges. 424 00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,600 It's like the ultimate psychopathic boyfriend who says 425 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,160 my my girlfriend can't talk to anyone. 426 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,440 Nope, just me. They might endanger her. 427 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:42,480 Yeah, right. Well of. 428 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,760 Course, you know, that's been the Biden administration's 429 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,600 attitude from the beginning. Within days after taking office, 430 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,960 the White House is sending messages to people at Twitter 431 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,120 and Facebook and so on, complaining about posts about 432 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,680 COVID, complaining about parody accounts targeting the Biden 433 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,520 family. And for their first two years in 434 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,040 office, they're having post deleted, having people 435 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:11,000 suspended, having people banned for dissenting from the 436 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:16,080 government narrative on COVID. And, and, you know, finally in 437 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,040 2023, a court issued an injunction putting an end to all 438 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,240 that. But the damage had already been 439 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,840 done there. Because when people needed to 440 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,880 speak about these things openly the most, they weren't able to. 441 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,160 But then they turn around and enact this TikTok ban. 442 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,800 And so it seems like control of speech online is one of the 443 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,360 dominant themes of the Biden administration. 444 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,120 And so hopefully that's coming to an end. 445 00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:47,920 You know, I there may be some things to like about JD Vance 446 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,720 and his attitude toward social media censorship is it may be 447 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,600 one of them, But at least President Trump has said or 448 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,960 signaled that he does not support this TikTok ban. 449 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,640 Unfortunately, it will be too late to do it for him to do 450 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,360 anything about it when he takes office because he takes office 451 00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:08,080 on January 20th. This thing takes effect on 452 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,880 January 19th. And even if when he does take 453 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:15,920 office, well, this law will be in effect unless Congress 454 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,360 repeals it and he signs that repeal and it passed the 455 00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:21,480 bipartisan support. So repeal could be hard. 456 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,560 I would hope that if the Supreme Court doesn't do anything in the 457 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,920 meantime, that Trump would just say the First Amendment. 458 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,520 Trump's all other considerations. 459 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,680 I've taken a note to uphold the Constitution. 460 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,200 Therefore we can't enforce this. Therefore, we won't enforce 461 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,800 this, but it would be much better if the Supreme Court 462 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,920 struck this down so we don't have to rely on the goodwill of 463 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:49,800 a particular president. And and, you know, sometimes, 464 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,360 again, like as with the COVID stuff, you end up not getting 465 00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:56,840 the court decisions that you want because the the court 466 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,680 weighs in too late after the damage is done. 467 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,120 The Supreme Court has an opportunity to put an end to 468 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:04,640 this before it ever takes effect. 469 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,520 And so that's what we're hoping it'll do. 470 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:12,600 If you look at someone like Katanji Brown Jackson, Sonia 471 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:18,200 Sotomayor, Elena Kagan, it seems like they have the progressive 472 00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,960 worldview of looking at things through the lens of the powerful 473 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,160 and the powerless, the exploited and the exploiters. 474 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:30,720 Is there any way you're going to curtail this argument to where 475 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:34,000 they might be on Biden's side and feel an obligation to vote 476 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,560 in favor of whatever Biden had supported? 477 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,440 Is there anything in particular you're going to say to those 478 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,960 minds that you think will really be persuasive and put pressure 479 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,920 on them to vote against the Foreign Adversary Controlled 480 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,880 Applications Act? That's a good. 481 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,320 Question, I think, you know, as a general matter, they would 482 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,920 acknowledge the right to free speech online. 483 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:59,560 They would recognize that content affecting companies 484 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,040 content moderation policies can violate the First Amendment. 485 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:07,560 So I'm, I'm not sure they would be against us. 486 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,880 It's a little hard to read where particular justices will be on 487 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,480 this. You know, we had a bipartisan 488 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,160 panel in the DC Circuit Court of Appeals. 489 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,360 The judge who wrote the opinion was Judge Douglas Ginberg, who 490 00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:24,520 has a reputation for being a libertarian. 491 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:29,320 People say, as these things go among, you know, among federal 492 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,560 judges. And yet the invocation of China 493 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,120 and national security was enough to win that judge over. 494 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,520 So we just have to hope that this court that's been pretty 495 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,960 good on speech issues in general, will will be good on 496 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,480 this and won't let national security concerns overwhelm 497 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,120 everything. Because they should recognize 498 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:58,320 that that would open the door to the censorship of all kinds of 499 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,280 speech, including the speech that they like, whether they're 500 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,080 on the left or the right. So is it that they're so afraid 501 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,880 of speech, the idea that, well, we can't trade with China 502 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,800 because, you know, the government influences these, 503 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,040 this product, and we don't want that here? 504 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,280 Well, if you haven't noticed, almost everything we have is 505 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:22,040 made in China. So it has to be a case of they 506 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,440 don't want access to something that could immediately update. 507 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,160 And, you know, next thing you know, Xi Jinping is giving, you 508 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,080 know, a global message to Usher and the CCP totalitarianism in 509 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,960 America. What is it about this that they 510 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,040 are so terrified about? I know you mentioned the thing 511 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,480 with Mitt Romney talking about people having access to the 512 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,400 atrocities in Gaza. Why is it that governments all 513 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,680 over the globe are constantly seeking to restrict speech 514 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:53,960 specifically? Why are they so insecure about 515 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:55,560 this? Well, because of course. 516 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,200 Speech is a threat to their power. 517 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,840 If they can control the narrative and control the 518 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,880 information people receive, there's going to be a lot less 519 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,720 dissent. Of course, you know, if people 520 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,760 had had full access to information about COVID related 521 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,680 issues from the beginning, it would have been a lot harder to 522 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,920 get them to go along with staying in their homes for 523 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:23,640 months and shutting down their businesses and not having 524 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,080 funerals and seeing their loved ones. 525 00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,360 And all the all this stuff would be very much, much harder to 526 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,760 control in an environment of free speech than it is when 527 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,000 there's one message coming through the media and social 528 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:41,560 media that that makes gives the impression that every reasonable 529 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:46,560 person thinks the same thing. I mean, of course information is 530 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,280 a threat to government power in general. 531 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,640 It's why governments have always done it. 532 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,880 And the recognition of that is a reason why we have a 1st 533 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,800 Amendment. And we're very, you know, say 534 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,320 what you will about the Constitution in general, but 535 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:05,720 look at the countries that that don't have a First Amendment, 536 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,080 that the government can get away with virtually anything and 537 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,720 almost every other country when it comes to suppressing speech. 538 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:19,000 But we have had a lot more free expression because we do have a, 539 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,160 an imperfectly enforced First Amendment. 540 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,760 And it's really critical that the Supreme Court use it here 541 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,440 because this this is really where it really counts when 542 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,920 you're, you know, there's every First Amendment case is 543 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,560 important, but you know, they take on fringe issues of people 544 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,880 making crush videos and things like that and say that violates 545 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,360 the First Amendment. Well, here you're talking about 546 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,800 the speech of activities of 170 million people, something really 547 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:49,960 unprecedented. So I would certainly hope that 548 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,280 they would realize that this is where it counts. 549 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,360 This this is exactly what it's for. 550 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:03,640 There was a law and I want to say Prussia in the 17 or 1800s 551 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,640 and the wording was it made it a crime to inflamed the passions 552 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:12,320 of the feeble minded when it comes to the downsides of free 553 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,840 speech. Do you see any overall 554 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,160 downsides, all else equal, that sometimes it's better for there 555 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:23,040 to be a monopolist who says what can and can't be said in a 556 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,240 geographical area just for the sake of keeping order? 557 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,600 Just for the sake of keeping what I'm sure they would 558 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,600 consider to be low IQ people from having too much power in 559 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,760 the society to spread misinformation? 560 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,560 When? You said inflaming the passions 561 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,640 of the feeble mind that I thought, isn't that what 562 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,200 politicians do? Isn't that they're like their 563 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,640 whole deal. And so like they, they are the 564 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,040 ones that we should be worried about. 565 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,800 And so when you're suppressed, like when they're the arbiters 566 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,040 of what can be said and they're, and they're picking and choosing 567 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,920 what people can hear, that makes it less likely for the truth to 568 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:57,880 get out. Of course, when you have any 569 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,240 monopolist on speech, you're going to get things tilted in 570 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,600 favor of things that serve the interests of that that arbiter 571 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,480 of truth, and you get further away from the truth. 572 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,280 And of course, free speech doesn't guarantee that the best 573 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,000 ideas will win, but at least it ensures that they can get out 574 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,040 there so that they have a chance of prevailing. 575 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:23,360 And you don't have that if the government is is picking and 576 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:28,640 choosing what people can hear. And of course, people can, you 577 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,120 know, come up with hypotheticals about, well, wouldn't it 578 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:34,400 technically, you know, serve the people's interest better if they 579 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,480 could do it in this emergency or that emergency? 580 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:42,520 But however, that it's unlikely, it's unlikely that we need that 581 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,920 in any situation. But even if there is a you can 582 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,520 come up with situations where you might think it would serve 583 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,160 the public's interest, the precedent would be would be so 584 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,320 dangerous that it wouldn't be worth doing anyway. 585 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,480 And of course, putting aside the justice of the matter, which is 586 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,880 it's always wrong to stop people from speaking no matter what 587 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:02,960 they're saying. And certainly even from my 588 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,520 perspective, free speech, it is something of a dangerous thing. 589 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,520 Free speech means people can advocate for socialism and 590 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,840 communism with like the worst ideas there are. 591 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:15,199 And in some places in time, that might mean that they'll prevail. 592 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:20,520 And yet the alternative of government controlling the ideas 593 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,400 that are out there is is worse. Just just like with so many 594 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:29,080 rights that we have, you know, protections against searches and 595 00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,280 seizures maybe means that some criminals will go free. 596 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,239 But we accept that because the alternative of the government 597 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,800 being able to search everybody all the time is so much worse. 598 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,679 And of course, those of us who believe in liberty not only 599 00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:44,280 believe that that's the just thing, we also think that's 600 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,480 going to work out the best for everybody in the long run. 601 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:53,639 A lot of people have accepted the fundamental claim that the 602 00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:57,760 state has a unique right to criminalize economic activities 603 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,120 between consenting adults under the guise of keeping them safe. 604 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,920 Do you think there's a principal difference between keeping me 605 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,640 safe from the food I buy, from the electronics I buy, and the 606 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,400 speech I hear? Why is it free speech that 607 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,160 people seem to get more worked up on rather than freedom of 608 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,800 commerce and any other product or service that they consume 609 00:35:17,720 --> 00:35:19,400 Well, I. Agree, of course, that these 610 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,600 rights are equally important as a libertarian, and in either 611 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,320 case the government is forcibly interfering with the actions of 612 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,640 peaceful people, which I would say is always wrong. 613 00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:33,120 And it may, it may be even more serious if you're stopping 614 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,240 somebody from earning a living in, in their profession or 615 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:40,560 whatever. The free speech, of course, we 616 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,040 can see how that's particularly important in the sense that if 617 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,360 the government shuts that down, it becomes much harder to defend 618 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,320 all other rights if you can't talk about it. 619 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,280 So, you know, there's something kind of extra special in that 620 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,360 sense about the 1st Amendment. We might also say the Second 621 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,240 Amendment in that those are sort of guarantors of your other 622 00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:04,160 rights because they allow you to to speak out on behalf of those 623 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,400 rights and then ultimately to defend your life against threats 624 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,760 to your life if it becomes necessary. 625 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,280 So there's that. Now, the Supreme Court does 626 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,880 treat free speech differently, not only from, from economic 627 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:21,600 liberties, but from most other liberties in that, you know, 628 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,520 there's, it's one of those that the court has said is 629 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,960 fundamental. The court has said that we have 630 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:28,360 some rights that are fundamental. 631 00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,440 Free speech is one. They've more recently said that 632 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,280 the, the right to bear, keep and bear arms is one that's good. 633 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:42,000 And and because of that, if a law infringes on those 634 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:46,320 fundamental rights, the courts will give it more serious 635 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,360 scrutiny, like First Amendment violations, where they're 636 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,520 discriminating based on the content of speech, get what they 637 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:56,960 call strict scrutiny, where the government is supposed to show a 638 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,680 compelling interest, which is like the highest interest, There 639 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,640 aren't very many of them. And that the law is narrowly 640 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,840 tailored to serve that interest so that the government couldn't 641 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,600 do what it couldn't serve its compelling interest in any other 642 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,640 way that wouldn't infringe on the right as much. 643 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,720 Now, even that is is kind of loose from our standards as 644 00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:18,280 libertarians because, I mean, the first image just says 645 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,720 Congress will make no law. There's no well, did you have a 646 00:37:20,720 --> 00:37:22,840 compelling interest? And was it like, you know, 647 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,480 right. It does seem, it seems like it 648 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,480 is and should be a blanket prohibition. 649 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,840 But the best we can do so far is strict scrutiny. 650 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,680 And they give that to fundamental rights. 651 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,440 But then when it comes to other rights, including the right to 652 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:41,200 economic liberty, they might recognize that the they would 653 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:45,280 say maybe that the 14th Amendment incorporates implies a 654 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,680 right to freedom of contract or economic liberty. 655 00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:54,680 But they say that the laws that infringe on those rights only 656 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,840 get rational basis review where all the government has to do is 657 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,320 show that it had some rational reason for restricting the 658 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,120 right. And courts will say it's OK. 659 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,480 And in doing that, they don't have to prove that even that 660 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,160 with their law serves the interests they say it serves. 661 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,480 It just has to have like some kind of like they're basically, 662 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,400 it just has to be like a logical structure to their argument and 663 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,720 that and that's about it. And courts will rubber stamp 664 00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:20,320 that. And of course, that's totally 665 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,720 outrageous. All of these rights are 666 00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:25,320 fundamental. You know, the the founders 667 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:29,040 talked about life, liberty and property or life, liberty and 668 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,480 the pursuit of happiness. And that encompasses all of this 669 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:33,320 stuff. And of course, you know, 670 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,800 regardless of what the founder said, we as libertarians think 671 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,600 that just as your right as a human being and and none of 672 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,080 these things should be infringed upon. 673 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,920 But we find ourselves in a situation where the 1st 674 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,920 Amendment gets rights get better protection than most other 675 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,720 rights. And that means that people who 676 00:38:52,720 --> 00:38:56,400 want to protect rights look for ways to frame things in terms of 677 00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,480 free speech violations, even if there's other ways they violate 678 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,760 rights. You if you focus on the speech, 679 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,280 you might get the course to take you seriously in a way that they 680 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:09,200 wouldn't otherwise. Are you going to have arguments 681 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,720 structured in such a way that specifically appeal to the more 682 00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:16,880 conservative mindset of seeing the world as a battle between 683 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,440 civilization and barbarism when it comes to someone like Justice 684 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:25,200 Thomas or, gosh, not, Scalia, Gorsuch, Kavanaugh and Coney 685 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,680 Barrett? Is there anything specific 686 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:28,720 you're going to be saying to that? 687 00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:32,400 Or are you just looking at the Constitution hoping that that 688 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,680 is, that they'll uphold their end of the bargain, that that's 689 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,320 what they're going by, or you're going to try to appeal to them 690 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,440 on more of a personal level? Well, I don't know about. 691 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,360 Civilization versus barbarism. But of course, when you're 692 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:47,640 arguing to any judges justices, you want to think about what 693 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,800 they've said in the past and frame your arguments in a way 694 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,440 that is consonant with that as opposed to fighting against it. 695 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,360 You know, Thomas and Gorsuch, I think they've been, they've been 696 00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:01,640 pretty consistently excellent on the 1st Amendment. 697 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:08,440 And they do take threats to to speech, including, you know, 698 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,640 laws that would manipulate political speech to favor one 699 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,680 side or the other. I think they take that very 700 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,920 seriously. Justice Alito has been very good 701 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,280 on free speech. The others, you don't have their 702 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,800 pros and cons from my perspective, but yeah, I mean 703 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,680 you you kind of do have to ultimately hope that they value 704 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:33,200 free speech enough and that the invocation of national security 705 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,720 is not going to shake that them from that. 706 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:42,720 But really all the law, you know, regardless of of of who 707 00:40:42,720 --> 00:40:46,440 said it in the past, maybe the from conservative judges, 708 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:51,200 liberal judges, really across the board, all the case law up 709 00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,720 till now is on our side, you know, for the reasons I said. 710 00:40:54,720 --> 00:40:56,920 You can't discriminate based on content. 711 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:59,560 You can't stop communist propaganda. 712 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,640 You can't do, you can't just invoke national security unless 713 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,440 it's like imminent. They, they would really have to 714 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:11,800 depart from everything the court has said through the years on 715 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,680 the 1st Amendment to rule in favor of the government here. 716 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,960 And I'd like to think that none of the justices are prepared to 717 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:25,080 make that kind of departure. When it comes to lessons we can 718 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,920 learn, whether it's from these laws themselves or how the 719 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,080 Supreme Court's interacted with the ones that come to mind are 720 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:37,680 the Sedition Acts 1798, making it a crime to publicly speak out 721 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,360 against the state, the espionage or Trading with the Enemies Act 722 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,640 of 1917. When it comes to lessons of 723 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,720 American history when it comes to regulating speech, what do 724 00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:50,600 you think are the major takeaways people should 725 00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,600 appreciate and what we could learn from? 726 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:54,400 Well, you know you're. Right. 727 00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,200 I say it's a departure. Of course, we have had terrible 728 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,080 violations of free speech by the federal government, particularly 729 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,360 in wartime. And we have the Alien Sedition 730 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:07,600 Act, terrible suppression of speech during World War One and 731 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,560 also some extent during World War 2. 732 00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:15,720 And fortunately, protection for speech has really only gotten 733 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,840 better and better since then as they've brought in like all 734 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:24,480 categories of expression. They've, you know, they, they 735 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,320 have subjected restrictions based on their content to the 736 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,840 highest scrutiny and made that clear with, with some, you know, 737 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,160 unfortunate deviations here and there, the things that we would 738 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:38,520 like them to correct. But the, the general trend has 739 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:42,080 been in favor of greater protection of speech. 740 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,880 And that's a good thing. We all benefit from that. 741 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:54,200 And of course, you know it recently when we've had on 742 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:59,160 social media X bucking the trend of controlling information in a 743 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,240 way that the government likes. I think a lot of people 744 00:43:02,240 --> 00:43:05,920 appreciate now that we're getting ideas and possibly 745 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,080 seeing political outcomes that we wouldn't have seen but for 746 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,000 that. And, and we see that the threat 747 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,160 is greater than ever in that, that in the way this 748 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,680 administration is acted where it just it wants to shut it down on 749 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:21,320 COVID. It wants to shut it down on, you 750 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,360 know, before that, before this administration shutting down, 751 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,280 you know, the Hunter Biden laptop story and all kinds of 752 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,320 stuff like that. They, they want to do it. 753 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,760 They will do it if they can get away with it at all. 754 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:39,440 And so that's why whatever you think of TikTok and the 755 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,160 communist government, you know, I can understand how that makes 756 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:46,200 some people uneasy because it's totally fair to hate the 757 00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,160 communist Chinese government at least as much as you hate the US 758 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,000 government if you're a person who cares about liberty because 759 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,880 it is really terrible. But they but people shouldn't 760 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,280 let that blind them to the reality that this is a 761 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:03,040 censorship tool of the US government and that it will not 762 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:08,440 end with TikTok. If if this law stands because of 763 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,560 the power it gives the president to ban other platforms in the 764 00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:14,280 future. You know, I'm sure we're pretty 765 00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:18,800 confident that if Kamala Harris had won this election, we would 766 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,840 be soon seeing efforts to shut down X based on this law that 767 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,880 says if you're directed or controlled by a foreign 768 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:28,920 adversary, the president can shut you down. 769 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,920 Because after this law was passed, we saw stories in the 770 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,960 media trying to tie Elon Musk to Vladimir Putin as though he's 771 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:40,160 taking cues from Putin somehow. And that may be ridiculous. 772 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,200 But of course, that doesn't stop them. 773 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,280 They'll they'll get their narrative out there and they'll 774 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:46,800 act based on that narrative. And I think that's what we would 775 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,120 be seeing imminently if Harris had been elected. 776 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,240 But we shouldn't be complacent just because Trump was elected, 777 00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:56,040 because you can't. You can't. 778 00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,680 Although he said relatively good things about these, you can't 779 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,400 count on anybody. And in the long run, there may 780 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,600 be, there will. If this law is on the books, 781 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,800 there will be people who want to use it, and they will use it. 782 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,160 Yeah, really. Come to think of it, I guess it 783 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,040 is a threat to national security, not, of course, you 784 00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,480 know, having something people can voluntarily download. 785 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,840 The threat to national security is one group forcibly stopping 786 00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:22,600 millions of people from exchanging information. 787 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:24,680 It is just amazing to scroll through. 788 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,280 This is just the explorer thing. Of course, I'm logged in on 789 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:32,520 Tiktok at this point, but it's not like I get CNN and MSNBC's 790 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,120 Tik Toks. These are millions of views that 791 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,960 the average person. It is so empowering and so evil. 792 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,240 They want to take this away from people. 793 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,320 Even if you think you know it tends to be more trivial things. 794 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,440 Well, I've watched regular TV. It's not exactly the most 795 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,040 Aristotle like information coming out of the Real 796 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:56,320 Housewives of Beverly Hills or whatever people are watching in 797 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,240 general. And one thing on your Russia 798 00:45:59,240 --> 00:46:02,840 case, President Biden was on the presidential debate stage when 799 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:07,440 he said 51 intelligence officers have said that what he's talking 800 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,040 about my son's laptop is a Russian plan, either said plan 801 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:14,320 or plant. This turned out to be completely 802 00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:16,280 fabricated. They had no evidence when all 803 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,320 those 51 liars got together. Hillary Clinton said 17 804 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,920 intelligence agencies, military and civilian, have confirmed 805 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,240 that it was Russia and the Kremlin who hacked my emails. 806 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,240 That was a complete lie. The New York Times, I want to 807 00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:34,200 say redacted, the date June 29th of 2017 comes to mind. 808 00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,760 But these stories are completely fake and this is what I guess 809 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,680 because Russia would be called a foreign adversary on that day, 810 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,800 at that time, they could have outlawed any criticism of those 811 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:46,560 stories. So we'd be living in complete 812 00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,160 fake Alice in Wonderland world if we just listen to the mass 813 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:52,360 murdering politicians all the time. 814 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,160 I'm so thankful for your time. Is there anything else people 815 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,120 need to know about this and where can they go For more 816 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,760 information? Well, I think people should know 817 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,080 that this this is a real and serious threat and that it's 818 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,960 very important that the US Supreme Court strike this down 819 00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,480 when it has the opportunity. We'll do our best to persuade 820 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,880 them to do that. If people want to go more, know 821 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:16,520 more, they can go to our website, 822 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,640 libertyjusticecenter.org. They can also check us out on 823 00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:25,120 XLJ Center or you could check me out on X Jacob Hubert. 824 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,720 Thanks to everyone for watching Keith Knight, Don't Tread on 825 00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:30,440 Anyone and the Libertarian Institute. 826 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:32,400 Mr. Hubert, thank you so much for your time. 827 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:33,400 Thank you.