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Okay, so I think things are 
settling down, that's good. 

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Some people are coming in, some 
people are leaving, some people 

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are staying put, which is great.
So now we can start this 

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evening's talk, and tonight I'm 
going to talk a little bit about

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religion and secularism, and the
idea on how these two things 

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interact, religion on the one 
hand, secular ideas on the 

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other. 
And in particular I'm going to 

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focus on where does Buddhism of 
course fit into this. 

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Is Buddhism, is it a secular 
thing, is it a religious thing? 

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And in particular there is this 
one trend in the Western world 

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that has arisen over the last 
few decades, perhaps called 

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secular Buddhism, and to have a 
look at that, and whether that 

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is, in my opinion, any need for 
that, is Buddhism already 

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secular enough, or do we need 
some special thing called 

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secular Buddhism or not? 
And as we go through this of 

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course we'll have a look at a 
few of the kind of crucial 

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Buddhist ideas and try to 
understand those in this 

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context. 
One of the interesting things 

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about the Buddhist teachings, 
which is always very 

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fascinating, which I recommend 
you to look at a little bit if 

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you have a chance, and that is 
to understand a little bit about

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Buddhist history. 
When you understand Buddhist 

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history you understand some of 
the things that, how this 

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teaching, this Buddhist 
teaching, is not a static thing,

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but it's something which is 
always changing, depending on 

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the time period, depending on 
the country where it goes, it's 

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always floating, always 
changing, always 

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metamorphosizing, whatever it 
is, from one thing into another 

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one, always changing, moving 
from one thing to something 

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else. 
And this is the history of 

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Buddhism, and you see that 
especially when it goes from one

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country to another one, you see 
the Buddhism in China is 

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different from the Buddhists in 
Sri Lanka, which is different 

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from the Buddhism in Thailand, 
right, and then you have Japan, 

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and all of these things are 
slightly different. 

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And so, it's not just about 
that, it's also about just time 

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progressing, as time goes on 
Buddhism changes by its nature 

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as well. 
And one of the reasons for that 

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is simply the restlessness of 
the human mind, right? 

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We can't just accept the 
teachings as they are, we have 

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to try to figure them out in a 
deeper way to think about them, 

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systematize them in new ways, 
change things a little bit to 

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our own liking. 
And by doing that, what happens 

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is that you get these entirely 
new scriptures created, which 

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had nothing really to do with 
the original teachings. 

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And gradually as time goes by, 
there is a change in outlook, a 

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change in philosophy, a change 
in psychology, as time goes by, 

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gradually things are changing. 
So this is what happens to 

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Buddhists, this is what Buddhist
history is in large part about, 

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that movement, that change on 
this thing we call Buddhism. 

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Because one of the great things 
when Buddhism comes to a new 

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country, like coming to 
Australia or coming to the 

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Western world more generally, is
that you have a chance to 

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reappraise what actually is the 
essence of these teachings, what

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are the accretions that have 
accumulated over the centuries 

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and millennia, what belong to a 
certain culture, but not 

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actually to the teachings that 
the Buddha gave us and 

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bequeathed us two and a half 
thousand years ago. 

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It's a great opportunity to do 
that. 

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It's much more difficult to do 
that in the Buddhist country 

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because of the weight of 
history, right? 

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The weight of tradition, often 
very, very hard to go against. 

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But when it starts in a new 
country, we have that 

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opportunity. 
And this is one of the great 

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things that we can actually look
for as Buddhism comes to 

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Australia and the Western world.
What actually is the essence of 

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this? 
There is one side of the coin, 

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right? 
But there is another side of 

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that coin. 
And that is the understanding, 

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as I just mentioned before, 
whenever Buddhism goes to a new 

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place, a new society, a new 
culture, a new era, Buddhism 

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itself gets influenced by that 
new society. 

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And of course when Buddhism 
comes to the West, exactly the 

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same thing is going to happen. 
Buddhism itself is going to be 

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formed according to our Western 
ideas, Western history, Western 

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culture is going to have an 
impact on that Buddhism, just as

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Buddhism has an impact on us. 
It's a two-way street, right? 

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Both things working on each 
other. 

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And of course when something 
gets influenced like that, we 

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have to be very careful. 
Because when something gets 

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influenced like that, it can get
influenced in the wrong way. 

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And if it does get influenced in
the wrong way and you end up 

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with a teaching that is 
completely contradictory to the 

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insights the Buddha had two and 
a half thousand years ago, you 

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could end up throwing out the 
baby. 

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Okay, throw out some of the 
dirty bath water, but keep the 

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baby for goodness sake. 
So we have to be very careful 

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when we make these shifts from 
one historical period to 

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another, from one culture to 
another, that we don't throw out

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the essence of these teachings. 
We don't throw out something 

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which is so foundational that 
Buddhism doesn't really function

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00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:30,184
anymore if you throw it out. 
And this is one of these trends 

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in Western society now, is 
precisely this thing that is 

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called secular Buddhism. 
And I think some of the ideas in

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secular Buddhism are actually 
very good and they are 

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00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,003
incredibly useful. 
But I think some of the other 

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ideas risk diluting Buddhism to 
the point where you don't really

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have Buddhism at all anymore. 
It's not secular Buddhism, it 

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becomes just secular, right, 
with a little bit of a dash of 

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Buddhism on top, like a little 
bit of, I don't know what, a 

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little bit of sprinkling of 
something. 

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And that is not really enough. 
In that case, we end up 

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destroying what this is all 
about. 

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So to understand this, 
understand a little bit more 

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about the idea of secularism and
religion, I think it's always 

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good to look a little bit at 
history. 

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There's often a lot to be 
learned from history. 

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And to understand what is the 
context in which the idea of 

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secularism actually arose. 
Once you understand that 

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context, it's much easier to see
if it applies to Buddhism or 

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not. 
And of course that context, as 

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many of you probably will have 
some idea about already, is of 

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course, this is what arose in 
Europe. 

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In Europe, after the Middle 
Ages, you had the Renaissance 

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and you had the Enlightenment. 
Right? 

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Enlightenment. 
This is a pretty shallow kind of

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Enlightenment compared to the 
Buddhist Enlightenment. 

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And this is one of the reasons I
don't really like that word, 

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Enlightenment, because 
Enlightenment tends to refer to 

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that re-arising of kind of 
science and critical thinking in

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Europe after the darkness of the
Middle Ages. 

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In Buddhism, we should use other
terms, I think, otherwise it 

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gets confused. 
So I like awakening in Buddhism.

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But anyway, at that time in 
Europe, come through the dark 

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Middle Ages that were very 
repressive, where state and 

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religion were kind of completely
mixed. 

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Where the Pope was sitting in 
Rome and controlling pretty much

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all of Europe. 
When you had the Inquisition, 

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there were burning books and 
burning people at the stake and 

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telling people what they could 
think and what they couldn't 

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think. 
And then came the Renaissance, 

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and things started to change. 
Right? 

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You had the very first 
scientists of the Renaissance, 

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people like Copernicus, who said
that actually the Earth goes 

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around the Sun, not the Sun 
going around the Earth. 

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And the Church, what? 
What are you saying? 

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And then of course Galileo came 
along, and Galileo was even more

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strong about this point of view.
And Galileo was actually one of 

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the great scientists of the 
modern era. 

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And he had, I don't know all 
that much about him, but he had 

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a lot of very scientific 
theories that later on proved to

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be very accurate. 
But of course he looked through 

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his telescope, he saw the moons 
around Jupiter and Saturn and 

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all this kind of stuff. 
And he also of course supported 

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the Copernican idea that the 
Earth actually revolves around 

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the Sun. 
And the Church said, heretics, 

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00:08:21,668 --> 00:08:25,250
you can't say that. 
And they locked Galileo up in 

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the house for 20 years, 30 
years, whatever it was, because 

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he dared to say that the Earth 
revolved around the Sun. 

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And you say, wow, that is really
bad, right? 

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How can you say that the Earth 
goes around the Sun? 

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Now it seems so obvious, but in 
those days it was a dramatic, 

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heretical teaching from the 
point of view of the Catholic 

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Church. 
It's pretty madness when you 

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look at it from a modern point 
of view, but that's what it was 

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like, that was what the 
atmosphere was like at that 

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time. 
And of course then, soon after 

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the scientific revolution 
started to happen, people were 

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00:09:00,706 --> 00:09:04,589
saying that, well actually we 
don't really want to have this 

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interference from the Church. 
We want to run our state, our 

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countries, independent of these 
dogmas, these ideas that are 

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00:09:13,556 --> 00:09:17,446
just handed down, that have no 
connection to reason, to 

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science, to logical thinking. 
Why should we be held back by 

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these Church ideas that actually
don't have any basis in reality?

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And that is where the idea of 
secularism arose. 

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We should have a state 
independent of the Church. 

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And that was one of those 
beginnings in Europe of the 

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00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,000
independence of state and 
Church. 

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So what seems the most obvious 
thing here about secularism, the

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most obvious thing that it was 
counteracting, was not religion 

171
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as such, but it was a particular
aspect of religion. 

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And that aspect of religion that
was problematic was the dogma, 

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right? 
The narrow mindedness, the 

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inability to inquire, to ask 
questions, to move forward. 

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That was really the problem. 
And that was where things 

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00:10:07,546 --> 00:10:10,310
stopped. 
And I think once you understand 

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that, you understand why this 
word religion also has been so 

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00:10:14,780 --> 00:10:19,000
problematic in the modern world.
Because the world religion has 

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always been associated with 
dogma, with narrow mindedness, 

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inability to see truth when it's
staring you in the face. 

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Instead you just close your eyes
because we want the truth to be 

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this particular way. 
And that is really the problem. 

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00:10:33,144 --> 00:10:36,000
And that is why the secularist 
movement arose. 

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So the question that we really 
need to ask as Buddhists is, is 

185
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Buddhism so dogmatic that we 
need this kind of secular view? 

186
00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:50,616
Or is it perhaps the case that 
Buddhist ideas are very much 

187
00:10:50,616 --> 00:10:53,002
aligned with some of these 
secular ideas? 

188
00:10:53,002 --> 00:10:57,816
Maybe that is the case instead. 
And I am going to argue and I am

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00:10:57,816 --> 00:11:01,430
going to point out to certain 
aspects of the Buddhist teaching

190
00:11:01,430 --> 00:11:04,643
that actually, of course 
Buddhism can be dogmatic as 

191
00:11:04,643 --> 00:11:07,001
well. 
Just like anything in the world 

192
00:11:07,001 --> 00:11:10,000
can be dogmatic. 
But the early Buddhism, the 

193
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,730
Buddhism of the Buddha, right? 
The Buddha started it all out, 

194
00:11:14,730 --> 00:11:18,365
was actually an inquiring 
teaching, looking into things, 

195
00:11:18,365 --> 00:11:23,000
an open mindedness, trying to 
find radical solutions to real 

196
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,500
problems of human existence. 
I've always wondered what kind 

197
00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:29,878
of person was the Buddha? 
Obviously he was kind of a 

198
00:11:29,878 --> 00:11:33,308
little bit Hindu, in those days 
it wasn't really Hinduism the 

199
00:11:33,308 --> 00:11:36,693
way it is now. 
He grew up in that kind of 

200
00:11:36,693 --> 00:11:40,000
society, he was very affected by
those teachings. 

201
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,375
But if you wanted to categorize 
him in terms of religion, what 

202
00:11:44,375 --> 00:11:47,000
kind of religion did he belong 
to? 

203
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,000
Sometimes I wonder, maybe the 
Buddha was an atheist. 

204
00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,693
Maybe he was an atheist, maybe 
he kind of sided with Richard 

205
00:11:53,693 --> 00:11:57,000
Dawkins or something in the 
present day. 

206
00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,202
Maybe actually that is going too
far, because I don't think that 

207
00:12:00,202 --> 00:12:02,062
is quite true. 
But I think what the Buddha 

208
00:12:02,062 --> 00:12:04,728
really was, it's kind of nice to
think of the Buddha as an 

209
00:12:04,728 --> 00:12:07,274
atheist. 
But what I think the Buddha 

210
00:12:07,274 --> 00:12:12,232
really was, he was the agnostic.
He said, I don't know, I am 

211
00:12:12,232 --> 00:12:15,335
unsure, right? 
I have an open mind, I don't 

212
00:12:15,335 --> 00:12:20,000
really know what's going on, I 
am going to find out for myself.

213
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,250
And that of course, that 
agnosticism is something that 

214
00:12:22,250 --> 00:12:26,000
also is very, quite common in 
the present day world. 

215
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,500
You say there is uncertainties 
there, there are mysteries in 

216
00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:31,403
the world beyond what I can 
understand right now, so I'm 

217
00:12:31,403 --> 00:12:35,334
going to keep an open mind. 
That I think is what the Buddha 

218
00:12:35,334 --> 00:12:40,200
really was. 
So, what about, the problem here

219
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,600
is then dogmatism, right? 
Holding onto ideas, grasping 

220
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,002
onto things, not letting them 
go, not being able to be open 

221
00:12:49,002 --> 00:12:51,000
minded, that is the real 
problem. 

222
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:54,637
Now, one of the interesting 
things about this is that 

223
00:12:54,637 --> 00:12:59,000
dogmatism is something that you 
don't just find it in religion. 

224
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:03,668
Okay, religion tends often to be
particularly bad perhaps when it

225
00:13:03,668 --> 00:13:07,572
comes to dogma, but dogma is 
something you find everywhere in

226
00:13:07,572 --> 00:13:11,000
society, right? 
Sometimes you find dogmatism, 

227
00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,800
dogmatism sometimes just 
expresses itself in certain fads

228
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,310
and trends. 
Sometimes you get fads within 

229
00:13:19,310 --> 00:13:23,000
medical science, you get fads 
within management, right? 

230
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,439
You have to manage people in 
this way, this is the right way 

231
00:13:25,439 --> 00:13:28,335
of doing it. 
You get fads in what kind of 

232
00:13:28,335 --> 00:13:32,800
clothes you have to wear, and 
very often these fads are very 

233
00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:36,400
similar to dogmas. 
They are things that you cannot 

234
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,156
really, it's very hard, there's 
a plurality of people that look 

235
00:13:40,156 --> 00:13:44,156
at things in a certain way and 
because they do that, it's very 

236
00:13:44,156 --> 00:13:47,316
hard to break out of that. 
So when you start to think like 

237
00:13:47,316 --> 00:13:50,232
that, when you start to look at 
the world, there's fads going on

238
00:13:50,232 --> 00:13:53,334
anywhere, there's dogmas, and 
you start to see that actually 

239
00:13:53,334 --> 00:13:56,667
it is very pervasive, it is 
something that you find 

240
00:13:56,667 --> 00:13:59,400
everywhere. 
It is not just confined to 

241
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:03,000
religion, you find it in 
politics of course, right? 

242
00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,000
Dogmatic, have holding certain 
views just because those views, 

243
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,715
you always have them so you're 
going to keep on to them or 

244
00:14:10,715 --> 00:14:13,145
whatever. 
And of course, what is 

245
00:14:13,145 --> 00:14:17,000
interesting also, it is also 
found in science itself. 

246
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,584
Science also, even though the 
idea of science is to be 

247
00:14:21,584 --> 00:14:25,000
open-minded, to be inquiring, 
always searching for the truth, 

248
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:30,000
science also sometimes falls 
into the problem of dogma. 

249
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,430
And there was a very interesting
book that was written back in 

250
00:14:33,430 --> 00:14:36,184
the 1960s, it was very 
influential I think in the 

251
00:14:36,184 --> 00:14:39,250
history of science, it was 
called The Structure of 

252
00:14:39,250 --> 00:14:43,000
Scientific Revolutions, and 
basically has been agreed upon 

253
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:47,500
as a proper description how 
science actually develops over 

254
00:14:47,500 --> 00:14:50,310
time. 
And what this book argued is 

255
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:54,200
that science gets stuck in 
certain ways of looking at the 

256
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,780
world, this thing they call 
paradigms, a certain paradigm, a

257
00:14:57,780 --> 00:15:02,144
certain way, a certain outlook. 
And you get stuck in that 

258
00:15:02,144 --> 00:15:04,643
outlook, and then evidence 
accumulates against this 

259
00:15:04,643 --> 00:15:07,334
outlook, more and more evidence 
accumulates, everybody just 

260
00:15:07,334 --> 00:15:10,184
dismisses it, doesn't want to 
see it, until the evidence 

261
00:15:10,184 --> 00:15:14,274
becomes so strong that you no 
longer can avoid looking at the 

262
00:15:14,274 --> 00:15:17,100
new evidence. 
And then there is what they call

263
00:15:17,100 --> 00:15:20,335
a paradigm shift, and you move 
into another worldview, another 

264
00:15:20,335 --> 00:15:24,800
way of looking at things. 
This is how we show that science

265
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,365
kind of progresses. 
And of course, what you're 

266
00:15:27,365 --> 00:15:30,868
seeing there, you're seeing a 
degree, it's a degree of 

267
00:15:30,868 --> 00:15:35,534
dogmatism that happens as that 
certain view is accepted over 

268
00:15:35,534 --> 00:15:37,848
time. 
So even in science, which is 

269
00:15:37,848 --> 00:15:42,730
supposed to be the most open 
part of one of the most open 

270
00:15:42,730 --> 00:15:45,000
institutions in the human 
sphere. 

271
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,584
So why is it? 
Why is it that we find dogmas 

272
00:15:49,584 --> 00:15:52,002
everywhere? 
What is the reason for that? 

273
00:15:52,002 --> 00:15:56,085
And the answer is very simple. 
The answer is basically because 

274
00:15:56,085 --> 00:16:01,275
dogmas are part of who we are. 
We cannot exist without dogmas. 

275
00:16:01,275 --> 00:16:05,750
Each one of us has views. 
Each one of us has certain ways 

276
00:16:05,750 --> 00:16:09,336
of looking at the world, and 
this is part of our personality,

277
00:16:09,336 --> 00:16:12,000
part of who we take ourselves to
be. 

278
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,000
If somebody challenges your 
views, this is when you find out

279
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,000
whether you are attached to your
views or not, right? 

280
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:21,000
And sometimes you realize, I am 
attached to my views. 

281
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,334
In fact, it is impossible that 
you should not be at least a 

282
00:16:25,334 --> 00:16:28,000
little bit attached to the views
you have. 

283
00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,000
This is part of human 
experience. 

284
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:36,250
And it comes from the very basic
sense of self that we all carry 

285
00:16:36,250 --> 00:16:39,156
with us. 
The sense of self that you have 

286
00:16:39,156 --> 00:16:42,638
inside of you, that you exist, 
that you are a certain person, 

287
00:16:42,638 --> 00:16:45,911
you have a certain character, 
you have a certain way of doing 

288
00:16:45,911 --> 00:16:49,730
and looking at things. 
That sense of self demands a 

289
00:16:49,730 --> 00:16:53,638
content, it demands an identity,
it demands something to fill it 

290
00:16:53,638 --> 00:16:57,002
up, to make it real. 
And part of that which makes the

291
00:16:57,002 --> 00:17:01,000
sense of self real is our views,
the way we look at the world. 

292
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,667
So of course, if somebody 
challenges your views, and you 

293
00:17:04,667 --> 00:17:08,000
take them to be the very who you
are, right? 

294
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,728
You can't just give it up, 
because if you give it up, it is

295
00:17:11,728 --> 00:17:15,667
as if you are giving up your 
very existence, your very sense 

296
00:17:15,667 --> 00:17:20,000
of self, who you actually are, 
your atta, we would say in Pali.

297
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,000
And because of that, you have to
hold on to those views. 

298
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,000
It's impossible to be completely
open-minded. 

299
00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,286
It cannot be done unless you are
fully awakened or something like

300
00:17:30,286 --> 00:17:33,400
that, right? 
And you are way up there on the 

301
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,500
spiritual path. 
Apart from that, it is 

302
00:17:35,500 --> 00:17:37,000
impossible to be completely 
open-minded. 

303
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,000
You have to have some things 
that you hold on to. 

304
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:45,500
And now, of course, you can 
understand why dogmatism is so 

305
00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:49,464
rife, why it has to exist 
everywhere, because it comes 

306
00:17:49,464 --> 00:17:53,700
from the very core, the very 
sense of who we are as human 

307
00:17:53,700 --> 00:17:54,334
beings. 
Right? 

308
00:17:54,334 --> 00:17:58,548
That's where it comes from. 
And of course, that is going to 

309
00:17:58,548 --> 00:18:01,002
infiltrate all human 
institutions, wherever you go, 

310
00:18:01,002 --> 00:18:05,000
whether it is science, as I was 
just saying, whether it's 

311
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:08,000
religion, the Buddhist society 
here, right? 

312
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,000
We are probably dogmatic. 
Are we dogmatic, Drew? 

313
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:12,668
Probably. 
Yes, we are dogmatic. 

314
00:18:12,668 --> 00:18:15,250
So there you are. 
So you see, it's everywhere. 

315
00:18:15,250 --> 00:18:17,000
He should know he is the 
president. 

316
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,750
He has kind of polled everyone, 
he knows what everyone is 

317
00:18:19,750 --> 00:18:23,000
thinking. 
So this is, it's everywhere, and

318
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,572
it is absolutely unavoidable 
that it should exist to some 

319
00:18:27,572 --> 00:18:29,750
extent. 
So this is the first thing to 

320
00:18:29,750 --> 00:18:32,695
realise. 
So it is no surprise that it 

321
00:18:32,695 --> 00:18:36,155
should also be found in 
religion, it is no surprise that

322
00:18:36,155 --> 00:18:38,000
it should also be found in 
Buddhism, right? 

323
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,000
It has to be found everywhere. 
So that is one side of the coin.

324
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,000
Now the other side of the coin, 
let us look at some of those 

325
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:50,617
Buddha's teachings and see 
whether they fit in with the 

326
00:18:50,617 --> 00:18:54,000
idea of dogmatism. 
This is the other side. 

327
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:58,334
And my point is going to be to 
show you that these basic 

328
00:18:58,334 --> 00:19:01,668
Buddhist teachings, these basic 
aspects of Buddhism, actually 

329
00:19:01,668 --> 00:19:05,224
are not dogmatic. 
They are dogmatic only because 

330
00:19:05,224 --> 00:19:10,112
we make them dogmatic, but as 
they were explained by the 

331
00:19:10,112 --> 00:19:13,700
Buddha himself, as we find them 
in the earliest discourses of 

332
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:16,000
Buddhism, they are not actually 
dogmatic. 

333
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:22,126
Now the first thing I will look 
at very briefly is the idea of 

334
00:19:22,126 --> 00:19:26,003
Buddhist ethics. 
If you look at the large number 

335
00:19:26,003 --> 00:19:30,875
of systems of ethics around the 
world, ethics can often be a 

336
00:19:30,875 --> 00:19:33,930
sphere of dogma, these are the 
things you have to follow, and 

337
00:19:33,930 --> 00:19:37,000
if you don't follow those, you 
will go to hell, right? 

338
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:42,502
That becomes dogmatic. 
So ethics can very easily become

339
00:19:42,502 --> 00:19:48,002
a system of, a dogmatic system, 
but actually that is not really 

340
00:19:48,002 --> 00:19:50,000
the case in the Buddhist 
teachings. 

341
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,500
Of course in Buddhism too, that 
can happen, but if you again go 

342
00:19:54,500 --> 00:19:58,250
back to the root teachings, go 
back to what we know with a fair

343
00:19:58,250 --> 00:20:01,750
amount of certainty was the word
of the Buddha himself, you find 

344
00:20:01,750 --> 00:20:04,000
a very different approach to 
ethics. 

345
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:09,200
In fact, I would always say that
to me, the Buddhist ethics is 

346
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,501
one of the jewels of Buddhism. 
It is one of the jewels because 

347
00:20:13,501 --> 00:20:16,000
it is incredibly flexible and 
very moveable. 

348
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,336
It is not something that is 
rigid and fixed, but it can be 

349
00:20:19,336 --> 00:20:24,144
used and applied if it is done 
properly and used for any kind 

350
00:20:24,144 --> 00:20:29,000
of context, to use it for modern
ethical problems etc. 

351
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,334
It can be used for all of that, 
which is wonderful, because 

352
00:20:32,334 --> 00:20:35,000
actually that is quite rare for 
a religion. 

353
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,728
And of course Buddhist ethics is
also very beautiful because it 

354
00:20:38,728 --> 00:20:42,668
is very comprehensive, it is 
about how we speak, don't say 

355
00:20:42,668 --> 00:20:47,002
bad things, try to say kind 
things, it is about how we act, 

356
00:20:47,002 --> 00:20:50,540
act in kind ways with 
compassion, don't act in harsh 

357
00:20:50,540 --> 00:20:55,334
ways, and also it is about how 
we think, so incredibly 

358
00:20:55,334 --> 00:20:58,400
comprehensive. 
This is one of the beauties 

359
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,430
about the Buddhist morality. 
But the other thing about 

360
00:21:01,430 --> 00:21:06,168
Buddhist morality, it is based 
on what I would consider a very 

361
00:21:06,168 --> 00:21:08,750
rational system. 
It is not based on the thou 

362
00:21:08,750 --> 00:21:12,002
shalt not system at all, it is 
based on something rational, it 

363
00:21:12,002 --> 00:21:15,250
is not handed down by the 
Buddha, this is what you should 

364
00:21:15,250 --> 00:21:17,000
do, this is what you shouldn't 
do. 

365
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,334
No, the Buddha says there is a 
way of looking at ethics which 

366
00:21:21,334 --> 00:21:25,000
is rational, and that is to ask 
the very simple question, right?

367
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,584
What is one of the most 
essential aspects of the human 

368
00:21:29,584 --> 00:21:31,668
beings? 
One of the most essential 

369
00:21:31,668 --> 00:21:34,456
aspects of human beings, 
actually not just humans, 

370
00:21:34,456 --> 00:21:37,000
animals too, any kind of being 
really. 

371
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:41,643
One of the things that defines 
us as beings is that we feel, 

372
00:21:41,643 --> 00:21:44,224
right? 
Things tend to be either 

373
00:21:44,224 --> 00:21:48,858
pleasurable or not pleasurable, 
either painful or happy, 

374
00:21:48,858 --> 00:21:52,800
suffering or blissful. 
There is this dichotomy in our 

375
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,335
experience of the world, and 
this is one of the most 

376
00:21:56,335 --> 00:21:58,890
important aspects of human 
beings, because this is what 

377
00:21:58,890 --> 00:22:02,667
drives us in the world, this is 
what gives rise to cravings and 

378
00:22:02,667 --> 00:22:06,334
desires, this is what kind of 
moves us all the time, this 

379
00:22:06,334 --> 00:22:10,000
sense that we want to move 
towards greater sense of ease, 

380
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,417
happiness, pleasure, peace, all 
these positive things, less 

381
00:22:14,417 --> 00:22:18,168
suffering, less pain, less 
problems, less of all this 

382
00:22:18,168 --> 00:22:21,500
negative stuff. 
So very, very essential, maybe 

383
00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:25,858
the most essential aspect of 
human beings, consciousness too 

384
00:22:25,858 --> 00:22:29,334
of course being very important. 
Actually it's hard to say what 

385
00:22:29,334 --> 00:22:32,000
is most important, but certainly
very significant. 

386
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:36,500
And from that you can derive 
ethics directly, because we know

387
00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:41,250
that people recoil from pain, 
recoil from negative 

388
00:22:41,250 --> 00:22:45,668
experiences, and they want the 
positive experiences, then of 

389
00:22:45,668 --> 00:22:50,400
course ethics is the very simple
thing that if you act to people 

390
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,500
in such a way that they get more
of the happy experiences, less 

391
00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:58,000
of the painful ones, then it's 
ethical. 

392
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,000
If you act towards others, they 
get more pain and less pleasure,

393
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:06,002
it's unethical. 
It's very simple, it's based on 

394
00:23:06,002 --> 00:23:10,572
who we are as human beings, and 
on that framework, on that 

395
00:23:10,572 --> 00:23:14,600
basis, the whole edifice of 
Buddhist ethics is based on 

396
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,000
that. 
So if you want to ask some of 

397
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,716
those difficult ethical 
questions that you always hear, 

398
00:23:19,716 --> 00:23:25,286
things about abortion, things 
about euthanasia, things about 

399
00:23:25,286 --> 00:23:29,250
climate change, all of these 
things, right, you can take it 

400
00:23:29,250 --> 00:23:32,540
back to that, and you can base 
it on that, and you can answer 

401
00:23:32,540 --> 00:23:36,200
pretty much all of these 
questions based on that very 

402
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,848
simple framework. 
So all of these things, they 

403
00:23:38,848 --> 00:23:41,728
don't have any pre-described 
answers in Buddhism, the answers

404
00:23:41,728 --> 00:23:46,000
come out from the logical system
of Buddhism itself, how it 

405
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,556
actually works. 
So this is the first thing about

406
00:23:48,556 --> 00:23:51,919
Buddhism, right, there's no 
dogma there really, it's based 

407
00:23:51,919 --> 00:23:55,715
on the thoroughly rational idea 
of how ethics is supposed to 

408
00:23:55,715 --> 00:23:58,000
work. 
So this is my first example. 

409
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:03,334
Second example, so no need for 
secularity in ethics, there's 

410
00:24:03,334 --> 00:24:06,500
nothing about this ethical 
framework, I have said that is 

411
00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:10,085
really either religious or 
secular, it is none of those, 

412
00:24:10,085 --> 00:24:13,500
it's just an ethical, rational, 
ethical framework which 

413
00:24:13,500 --> 00:24:17,000
transcends the idea of religion 
and secularism. 

414
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,770
This is kind of the nice thing, 
right, you can transcend these 

415
00:24:19,770 --> 00:24:23,000
things, you can kind of marry 
them together and go beyond, 

416
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,400
that's when you find something 
larger, something greater, which

417
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:31,500
is always very nice. 
The second thing is the idea of 

418
00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:34,780
meditation. 
Is meditation, is that secular, 

419
00:24:34,780 --> 00:24:39,000
or is it religious? 
So what is meditation all about?

420
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:43,300
Meditation is about having some 
kind of inner experience, an 

421
00:24:43,300 --> 00:24:47,000
inner experience which makes you
feel more at ease, more relaxed,

422
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,200
more peaceful, sometimes you can
experience powerful, powerful 

423
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:55,000
bliss in meditation. 
I know that many of you who are 

424
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,250
here have done that, because 
you've been there, done those 

425
00:24:58,250 --> 00:25:00,750
meditation retreats, and you 
have had some of those 

426
00:25:00,750 --> 00:25:04,572
experiences, and you know how 
transforming it can be to have 

427
00:25:04,572 --> 00:25:07,600
these kind of experiences. 
It's as if you are lifted out of

428
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,500
the world, and you see something
new, something different, that 

429
00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:15,000
you had no idea actually existed
before. 

430
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,667
Right, it's a very, very, very 
important part of the spiritual 

431
00:25:18,667 --> 00:25:22,274
path, the meditation experience,
because it gives you access to 

432
00:25:22,274 --> 00:25:25,002
something higher, gives you 
access, basically, people who 

433
00:25:25,002 --> 00:25:29,336
have been there and done that, 
they say it gives you access to 

434
00:25:29,336 --> 00:25:32,000
what feels like the meaning of 
life itself. 

435
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,000
So pretty, very, very powerful 
stuff. 

436
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,000
So what is this? 
Is it, first of all, is it real?

437
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,274
Well it is real, people are 
obviously experiencing these 

438
00:25:41,274 --> 00:25:43,200
things, right? 
They're obviously there, not 

439
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,200
only are they experienced in 
Buddhism, they are experienced 

440
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,667
in Christianity, some of the 
Christian saints of the Middle 

441
00:25:49,667 --> 00:25:53,300
Ages, the Middle Ages again, 
right, it wasn't all dark, some 

442
00:25:53,300 --> 00:25:55,700
of the Christian saints actually
experienced these blissful 

443
00:25:55,700 --> 00:25:58,000
experiences during those Middle 
Ages. 

444
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:03,800
Famous Catholic nun in Spain 
called Teresa of Avila was very 

445
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,668
famous for entering these inner 
chambers of bliss she was 

446
00:26:07,668 --> 00:26:11,667
talking about, and sounds very 
similar to the Buddhist ideas of

447
00:26:11,667 --> 00:26:15,000
Samadhi, Samadhi, deep 
meditation experience. 

448
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,000
So it existed in Christianity, 
right? 

449
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,000
It certainly existed in 
Hinduism. 

450
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,334
Hinduism is famous for the 
Samadhi sages, the sages that go

451
00:26:23,334 --> 00:26:26,500
into Samadhi. 
Very famous Hindu sage, Ramana 

452
00:26:26,500 --> 00:26:31,858
Maharshi, who lived in the 1950s
or thereabouts, very famous in 

453
00:26:31,858 --> 00:26:35,668
India, you can find books about 
him on the internet now, and he 

454
00:26:35,668 --> 00:26:39,336
lived in this little concrete 
hut, right, with a kind of 

455
00:26:39,336 --> 00:26:42,924
single light bulb hanging down 
from the ceiling, the kind of 

456
00:26:42,924 --> 00:26:46,600
classic kind of, I don't know, 
kind of outback place, which is 

457
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,000
incredibly simple, there's a 
single bulb hanging down, 

458
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,000
glaring light, everything is 
concrete, terrible, right? 

459
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:56,000
This kind of place, nobody would
ever want to live. 

460
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,786
And he would sit there on the 
concrete, all he had was a 

461
00:26:58,786 --> 00:27:01,667
loincloth, otherwise he was 
completely naked apart from his 

462
00:27:01,667 --> 00:27:05,001
loincloth, and he would sit 
there all day, just smiling, 

463
00:27:05,001 --> 00:27:08,574
just so happy, just blissing out
all the time, and all these 

464
00:27:08,574 --> 00:27:12,184
people would come to him and pay
respects to him because he was 

465
00:27:12,184 --> 00:27:16,000
so special, right? 
And he was one, when he 

466
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,728
occasionally talked, then it was
clear that he was one of these 

467
00:27:19,728 --> 00:27:23,000
people who had access to very 
profound samadhi. 

468
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,000
He had done some kind of death 
contemplation when he was young,

469
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,001
and through that death 
contemplation he was able to 

470
00:27:29,001 --> 00:27:31,540
access this state that was 
completely otherworldly, and 

471
00:27:31,540 --> 00:27:35,820
from then on he would just sit 
there, meditate in this simple 

472
00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:41,184
concrete hut with a single light
bulb in his sat there for year 

473
00:27:41,184 --> 00:27:44,252
after year, decade after decade.
Would you enjoy that? 

474
00:27:44,252 --> 00:27:47,688
There's nothing else in the 
world that he wanted to do, 

475
00:27:47,688 --> 00:27:50,144
right? 
Isn't that quite astonishing in 

476
00:27:50,144 --> 00:27:52,668
a sense? 
And this is the astonishing 

477
00:27:52,668 --> 00:27:56,668
thing about these attainments, 
is that you live in a way that 

478
00:27:56,668 --> 00:28:00,288
nobody else can comprehend, and 
yet you are probably one of the 

479
00:28:00,288 --> 00:28:02,000
very happiest people on this 
planet. 

480
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,000
So these things are there, 
Hinduism, Christianity, 

481
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:11,000
certainly very important in 
Buddhism, other religions too, 

482
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,556
sometimes talk about accessing 
these powerful states of 

483
00:28:14,556 --> 00:28:18,000
ecstasy, which probably also are
states of samadhi. 

484
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,584
So again, if you are an atheist,
sometimes atheists access these 

485
00:28:22,584 --> 00:28:26,145
things, it doesn't matter if you
believe in God, or you believe 

486
00:28:26,145 --> 00:28:30,000
in the Buddha, you believe in 
whatever, believe in Thor. 

487
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,860
I'm Norwegian by birth, 
sometimes I think I should have 

488
00:28:32,860 --> 00:28:35,925
this Thor and Odin deeply seated
inside of me. 

489
00:28:35,925 --> 00:28:40,336
I always wondered if you pray to
Thor, maybe you can actually 

490
00:28:40,336 --> 00:28:43,000
experience these kind of states 
as well, right? 

491
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,000
Maybe you hear some thunder, 
fall with the thunder, bang! 

492
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,000
And then you go into this 
blissful state. 

493
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,000
I don't know, it's an 
interesting idea. 

494
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,358
I think probably if you practice
in the right way, right, it 

495
00:28:53,358 --> 00:28:56,572
doesn't really matter so much 
what kind of religious 

496
00:28:56,572 --> 00:28:59,869
background you come from. 
I'm not really sure if I will 

497
00:28:59,869 --> 00:29:03,780
ever go back to those Thor and 
Odin, but anyway it's an 

498
00:29:03,780 --> 00:29:07,430
interesting idea that even 
there, there may be access to 

499
00:29:07,430 --> 00:29:09,500
those things. 
Maybe the battles they had in 

500
00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:12,500
heaven are some kind of metaphor
for deep states of meditation. 

501
00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:16,250
Actually I don't think so, I 
think it's pretty violent and 

502
00:29:16,250 --> 00:29:19,572
bad stuff. 
Anyway, it is a universal human 

503
00:29:19,572 --> 00:29:21,500
experience. 
Is it religious? 

504
00:29:21,500 --> 00:29:25,000
Is it secular? 
And the answer is neither. 

505
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,000
Anyone can actually attain these
things, right? 

506
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,668
And of course if you ask a 
secular Buddhist, or rather 

507
00:29:31,668 --> 00:29:34,728
those people who call themselves
secular Buddhists, they will 

508
00:29:34,728 --> 00:29:38,000
agree, they will say, well these
are universal states. 

509
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,000
Of course they are neither 
religious nor secular. 

510
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,000
So that is the meditation side 
of things, right? 

511
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,456
There's no dogma there. 
One of the beautiful things 

512
00:29:47,456 --> 00:29:50,772
about this is that the deeper 
your meditation is, the more 

513
00:29:50,772 --> 00:29:55,000
deep your samadhi is, the less 
dogmatic you tend to become. 

514
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,770
Some of the most beautiful 
people you will ever meet in the

515
00:29:57,770 --> 00:30:00,728
world are the people who have 
access to deep states of 

516
00:30:00,728 --> 00:30:03,501
meditation. 
They are so full of kindness, so

517
00:30:03,501 --> 00:30:06,000
full of compassion, so full of 
peace. 

518
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,400
When you get into their 
presence, all you want to do is 

519
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,800
just sit down and relax, right? 
I can't remember whether I told 

520
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:17,336
this story here before, maybe I 
have, but last year, actually it

521
00:30:17,336 --> 00:30:21,355
was earlier this year, I went to
Thailand and I went to see one 

522
00:30:21,355 --> 00:30:24,820
of these very famous monks in 
Thailand who is famous for 

523
00:30:24,820 --> 00:30:30,144
having a lot of this loving 
kindness, metta and all of these

524
00:30:30,144 --> 00:30:32,504
beautiful qualities. 
And when I met to meet him, he 

525
00:30:32,504 --> 00:30:35,200
was just sitting there on his 
big chair like a small little 

526
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,500
monk sitting on his big chair, 
and he was sitting there just 

527
00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:40,750
smiling, right, looking really 
blissed out, really, really 

528
00:30:40,750 --> 00:30:43,000
happy. 
He didn't say anything, right? 

529
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,358
He was just sitting there. 
And just by sitting there, not 

530
00:30:45,358 --> 00:30:47,848
by saying anything, all these 
people would come and they would

531
00:30:47,848 --> 00:30:51,464
just sit down around him as if 
they were sitting in this kind 

532
00:30:51,464 --> 00:30:55,001
of force field of kindness, just
feeling the goodness of being 

533
00:30:55,001 --> 00:30:57,000
around this person. 
It's quite astonishing, isn't 

534
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,250
it? 
And this is what it's like to be

535
00:30:59,250 --> 00:31:03,000
in the presence of people who 
have this kind of samadhi thing.

536
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:08,000
And when you talk to them, you 
feel there is very undogmatic, 

537
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,200
there is very little adhering to
views, and there is a lot of 

538
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,000
flexibility in the way they look
at the world. 

539
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,500
They have no sense that they 
have anything to defend because 

540
00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:21,638
they are complete in themselves.
There is no external self that 

541
00:31:21,638 --> 00:31:25,500
they have to prove anything. 
They don't adhere to anything 

542
00:31:25,500 --> 00:31:28,002
anymore. 
So actually here you can start 

543
00:31:28,002 --> 00:31:31,155
to see that these samadhi 
experiences, instead of making 

544
00:31:31,155 --> 00:31:35,000
you dogmatic, they tend to lead 
you away from dogmatism. 

545
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,386
Sometimes they can lead you to 
dogma, sometimes you can take 

546
00:31:38,386 --> 00:31:41,695
those experiences to have 
certain meanings, but very often

547
00:31:41,695 --> 00:31:45,848
they lead you away from 
dogmatism into a soft and 

548
00:31:45,848 --> 00:31:50,000
open-minded and inquiring way of
looking at the world. 

549
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,000
Very beautiful when you meet 
this kind of people. 

550
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,689
And then there is the last part 
of Buddhism that I wanted to 

551
00:31:59,689 --> 00:32:04,556
briefly talk about, and that is 
the insight or the wisdom 

552
00:32:04,556 --> 00:32:08,000
aspect, the seeing things 
according to reality. 

553
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:11,202
We are getting more and more 
closer and closer here to the 

554
00:32:11,202 --> 00:32:14,501
core of Buddhism, what it 
actually really is, what the 

555
00:32:14,501 --> 00:32:17,000
insights of the Buddha were 
truly about. 

556
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,468
So this is where we would expect
to find the most dogmatic kind 

557
00:32:20,468 --> 00:32:24,079
of statements because it is the 
core, the essence of what these 

558
00:32:24,079 --> 00:32:27,000
teachings are about. 
So what is that core? 

559
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,667
Well, one of the most important 
aspects, core insights of the 

560
00:32:30,667 --> 00:32:34,000
Buddha, is this idea of 
non-self. 

561
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,667
This idea that if you look 
inside of yourself and you 

562
00:32:37,667 --> 00:32:41,600
investigate after a powerful 
state of samadhi, what you see 

563
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,848
is you see an ever-changing 
process of mental and physical 

564
00:32:45,848 --> 00:32:50,000
phenomena moving on from one 
state to another one. 

565
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,668
What is that? 
Is that religious? 

566
00:32:52,668 --> 00:32:56,501
Is it secular? 
And again, if it is an insight 

567
00:32:56,501 --> 00:33:00,500
into who you are as a person, 
because you are looking at 

568
00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:03,715
yourself with a powerful mind, 
looking at yourself in a neutral

569
00:33:03,715 --> 00:33:07,464
way, and of course many modern 
psychiatrists and whatever will 

570
00:33:07,464 --> 00:33:11,144
agree with that view, although 
they haven't probably fully 

571
00:33:11,144 --> 00:33:15,000
understood it, they will say 
similar kind of things. 

572
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,000
Again, it is neither secular nor
religious, right? 

573
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,548
It is just an insight into 
reality. 

574
00:33:21,548 --> 00:33:25,502
That's what it is. 
And as an insight into reality, 

575
00:33:25,502 --> 00:33:28,000
again, it is not really 
dogmatic. 

576
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:33,400
It is similar in some ways to 
scientific fact-finding, by 

577
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,200
understanding reality, 
understanding the world as it 

578
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,415
actually is. 
And I should maybe make, maybe 

579
00:33:38,415 --> 00:33:40,765
this is a good opportunity to 
make an important distinction 

580
00:33:40,765 --> 00:33:42,875
here. 
Sometimes in the modern world, 

581
00:33:42,875 --> 00:33:46,001
they were here, there would be 
psychologists or psychiatrists, 

582
00:33:46,001 --> 00:33:49,464
they would say, we agree with 
the Buddha's teaching, when we 

583
00:33:49,464 --> 00:33:53,858
look at the human mind, there is
no essence, there is no core, 

584
00:33:53,858 --> 00:33:57,155
there is no factor or 
personality, which is always 

585
00:33:57,155 --> 00:34:00,616
unchanging, moving along from 
moment to moment, always the 

586
00:34:00,616 --> 00:34:04,000
same. 
So we agree with Buddhism. 

587
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,000
So does that mean that these 
psychiatrists and psychologists 

588
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,572
have the same insight into the 
human mind as the Buddha had, or

589
00:34:12,572 --> 00:34:16,000
as modern meditators 
occasionally may have? 

590
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,000
Is that what it means? 
And the answer is, not really. 

591
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,063
Because although you may be able
to see that there is no core 

592
00:34:24,063 --> 00:34:28,600
inside of me, although you can 
see that as a psychologist and 

593
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,556
psychiatrist, that is not the 
same as actually experiencing 

594
00:34:32,556 --> 00:34:34,750
that. 
As long as it is something that 

595
00:34:34,750 --> 00:34:38,337
you are observing from outside, 
it doesn't touch you in a deep 

596
00:34:38,337 --> 00:34:42,000
way, and your sense of self will
still be the same. 

597
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:46,000
The sense of self isn't 
challenged in a deep sense. 

598
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:50,300
It is only when you see these 
things inside of yourself, that 

599
00:34:50,300 --> 00:34:54,252
is when that real sense of self 
is challenged, and that is why 

600
00:34:54,252 --> 00:34:57,376
that insight you have on the 
meditation cushion is what 

601
00:34:57,376 --> 00:34:59,500
really matters. 
And the intellectual view that 

602
00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:03,800
you have as a psychologist is 
only a very superficial view of 

603
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,500
the same thing. 
The psychologist is not touched 

604
00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:10,400
on a deep psychological level. 
The meditator, if he sees this, 

605
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,500
is transformed beyond 
recognition by having these 

606
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:16,911
kinds of insights. 
So again, I think we can agree 

607
00:35:16,911 --> 00:35:20,625
at the very least that this is 
neither secular nor really 

608
00:35:20,625 --> 00:35:22,500
religious. 
It's just about reality. 

609
00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:26,572
Maybe it's not true, you might 
disagree with this Buddhist 

610
00:35:26,572 --> 00:35:31,000
view, but certainly it is not 
really religious or secular. 

611
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,530
There is one other type of 
insight, and this is where we 

612
00:35:34,530 --> 00:35:40,000
are moving into the terrain that
some people will call dogmatic. 

613
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:44,890
Because one of the other 
profound insights that you 

614
00:35:44,890 --> 00:35:49,600
normally have on the path to 
awakening is the insight that 

615
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:55,556
there is not just one life, but 
that there is such a thing as 

616
00:35:55,556 --> 00:35:58,100
rebirth. 
And this is the area which is 

617
00:35:58,100 --> 00:36:01,668
kind of crucial, because this is
the area where the so-called 

618
00:36:01,668 --> 00:36:05,334
secular Buddhists will say, 
these are the things we need to 

619
00:36:05,334 --> 00:36:07,500
throw out. 
This is the cultural baggage of 

620
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:10,500
Buddhism that has to be 
abandoned, and we need a more 

621
00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:13,668
rational view of the world. 
But remember that from a 

622
00:36:13,668 --> 00:36:17,668
Buddhist point of view, this is 
not a dogma, this is not 

623
00:36:17,668 --> 00:36:21,000
something the Buddha says, I am 
just putting it out there for 

624
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,572
you to believe in. 
No, this is a crucial, essential

625
00:36:24,572 --> 00:36:29,000
aspect of the Buddha's path to 
awakening itself. 

626
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,000
This is one of the insights he 
had into the nature of reality. 

627
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:37,000
Just like samadhi, deep 
meditation, is a real state. 

628
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,000
Just like the idea of non-self 
is something you can investigate

629
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,637
and perhaps find out for 
yourself in exactly the same 

630
00:36:44,637 --> 00:36:47,400
way. 
The idea of rebirth is something

631
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:51,156
that has been investigated, that
has been inquired into by the 

632
00:36:51,156 --> 00:36:53,000
Buddha, and discovered by the 
Buddha. 

633
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,000
And as such, it is not neither 
secular nor religious. 

634
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,064
It is, from the Buddha's point 
of view, just a claim about the 

635
00:37:01,064 --> 00:37:05,336
nature of reality, how the body 
and mind function over long, 

636
00:37:05,336 --> 00:37:09,572
long periods of time. 
And this is so important to 

637
00:37:09,572 --> 00:37:12,548
understand. 
And once you see it this way, 

638
00:37:12,548 --> 00:37:16,572
that even these things that 
people sometimes look upon as 

639
00:37:16,572 --> 00:37:20,000
dogmas, actually has nothing to 
do with dogma at all. 

640
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,728
Of course, we can make it into a
dogma, we can say, believe in 

641
00:37:23,728 --> 00:37:27,000
rebirth or else, or burn out the
stake, right? 

642
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,000
That would be something if we 
had to believe in rebirth or 

643
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:35,000
burn out the stake, but are we 
going to do that, Dhrun? 

644
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,637
But that can happen. 
You can make these things into 

645
00:37:38,637 --> 00:37:41,625
dogmas. 
But that, of course, is not the 

646
00:37:41,625 --> 00:37:44,548
point. 
The point is the right way of 

647
00:37:44,548 --> 00:37:48,911
approaching things like rebirth,
is not to make it into a dogma, 

648
00:37:48,911 --> 00:37:52,002
but understand it. 
This is what the Buddha taught. 

649
00:37:52,002 --> 00:37:56,079
Now let me inquire into it, let 
me look at this, let me have an 

650
00:37:56,079 --> 00:37:59,911
open mind about this, and see if
what the Buddha said actually 

651
00:37:59,911 --> 00:38:02,800
makes any sense. 
And that is the right attitude 

652
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,638
to have towards it. 
And then you are following in 

653
00:38:05,638 --> 00:38:08,638
the footsteps of the Buddha, 
because that is exactly what he 

654
00:38:08,638 --> 00:38:10,750
did. 
He inquired into this, he asked 

655
00:38:10,750 --> 00:38:13,000
himself the question, is there 
rebirth? 

656
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,770
He found the answer was yes. 
And of course, once you found 

657
00:38:15,770 --> 00:38:19,000
out, then you have no doubt 
about the issue anymore. 

658
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,734
So this is the right way. 
So there are, as far as I am 

659
00:38:22,734 --> 00:38:26,000
concerned, there aren't really 
any dogmas in Buddhism. 

660
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,000
What there is, there is a person
who claims to have discovered 

661
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,000
something extraordinarily 
profound. 

662
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:36,125
And then what we should do is 
look at those claims and see if 

663
00:38:36,125 --> 00:38:38,000
they make any sense. 
Right? 

664
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,068
And if we find that they make 
some sense, well then, at the 

665
00:38:42,068 --> 00:38:45,000
very least, we should have an 
open mind about these things. 

666
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,002
If you reject outright what the 
Buddha said, well basically what

667
00:38:49,002 --> 00:38:53,000
you are doing, you are rejecting
the awakening of the Buddha. 

668
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,125
And if you reject the awakening 
of the Buddha, then you cannot 

669
00:38:57,125 --> 00:39:00,500
really call yourself a Buddhist.
Not yet anyway, until you move 

670
00:39:00,500 --> 00:39:04,250
maybe a little bit further here.
And all of this is encapsulated 

671
00:39:04,250 --> 00:39:08,000
very beautifully in a very 
famous sutta. 

672
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,000
The suttas are the discourses of
the Buddha. 

673
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,693
This is a sutta known as the 
Kalama Sutta in the Buddhist 

674
00:39:14,693 --> 00:39:17,250
canon. 
And this Kalama Sutta is very 

675
00:39:17,250 --> 00:39:21,000
often quoted, especially in 
Buddhist secular circles, right?

676
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,734
Because it is very similar to 
the way we like to look at the 

677
00:39:24,734 --> 00:39:28,334
world in the present day. 
And in this Kalama Sutta, you 

678
00:39:28,334 --> 00:39:31,079
see the Buddha, he is wandering 
around the country, this is in 

679
00:39:31,079 --> 00:39:34,000
the north of India, two and a 
half thousand years ago. 

680
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,728
He is wandering around the 
Ganges Plain from place to 

681
00:39:36,728 --> 00:39:39,000
place, spreading his teachings, 
right? 

682
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,000
This is what he did when he was 
still quite young. 

683
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:46,144
And one day he arrives at a 
certain place, and this is the 

684
00:39:46,144 --> 00:39:49,000
country of a group of people 
known as the Kalamas. 

685
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:54,000
So he comes to the Kalamas, and 
the Kalamas say to the Buddha, 

686
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,667
Master, or Blessed One, or 
whatever you want to call the 

687
00:39:57,667 --> 00:40:01,000
Buddha, Venerable Sir, we are so
confused, right? 

688
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,669
We don't know what to believe. 
One day, one spiritual teacher 

689
00:40:04,669 --> 00:40:09,000
comes to us, and he says, A. 
Another day, another spiritual 

690
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,250
teacher comes, and he says 
negative A, he says the exact 

691
00:40:12,250 --> 00:40:14,000
opposite of what the first one 
said. 

692
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,800
And then a third day, a third 
spiritual teacher comes, and he 

693
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,000
says B, right? 
So what are we to believe? 

694
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,250
These spiritual teachers are 
contradicting themselves, they 

695
00:40:24,250 --> 00:40:27,667
are absolutely at odds with each
other, we don't know what to 

696
00:40:27,667 --> 00:40:29,386
believe. 
And then the Buddha replies, and

697
00:40:29,386 --> 00:40:33,000
this is one of those famous 
replies found in the suttas. 

698
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,546
It's not famous because it is 
really a core of Buddhism, it is

699
00:40:36,546 --> 00:40:39,000
famous because Western people 
like this kind of stuff. 

700
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,000
That's why it's famous in the 
West. 

701
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,386
In Asia, it's not so important 
because Asia has a very 

702
00:40:44,386 --> 00:40:47,184
different history, so these 
things don't come up quite in 

703
00:40:47,184 --> 00:40:50,184
the same way. 
But in the West, wow, it fits in

704
00:40:50,184 --> 00:40:52,715
with secularism, right? 
And that's why it becomes so 

705
00:40:52,715 --> 00:40:54,400
famous. 
So then the Buddha says, one of 

706
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,000
the first things the Buddha says
is that, well, you have doubts 

707
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:03,000
about a doubtful matter. 
You are right to have doubt. 

708
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:06,000
Which already is like, wow, you 
have the right to have doubt, 

709
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,000
wow, that's really freeing, 
right? 

710
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:11,468
We don't actually have to kind 
of hold on to one dogma or 

711
00:41:11,468 --> 00:41:13,875
something else. 
Sometimes there are things that 

712
00:41:13,875 --> 00:41:17,334
are truly doubtful, and when 
things are really doubtful, it 

713
00:41:17,334 --> 00:41:20,000
is right to have doubt about 
those things. 

714
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,310
So remember that, there's 
nothing to be ashamed about if 

715
00:41:22,310 --> 00:41:24,386
you have doubt. 
You have to be honest about 

716
00:41:24,386 --> 00:41:28,000
those things and then see what 
happens as you practice and you 

717
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:32,000
read and you do whatever, you 
come here, whatever you do. 

718
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,335
And then the second thing that 
Buddha says, which is kind of 

719
00:41:35,335 --> 00:41:41,375
the crucial part of it, he says 
that, don't go by tradition, 

720
00:41:41,375 --> 00:41:43,667
right? 
Forget about tradition for a 

721
00:41:43,667 --> 00:41:46,858
moment. 
Don't go by reasoning, right? 

722
00:41:46,858 --> 00:41:50,501
By reasoning. 
This is one of the things that 

723
00:41:50,501 --> 00:41:53,750
are very sacrosanct in the 
Western culture, but he says, 

724
00:41:53,750 --> 00:41:56,000
don't go by reasoning, at least 
for the moment. 

725
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,000
Don't go by faith in the 
teacher, right? 

726
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,750
If there's a teacher, don't go 
just because somebody is your 

727
00:42:02,750 --> 00:42:05,000
teacher. 
Don't go by faith in that. 

728
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:09,000
Don't go by the competence of 
the teacher. 

729
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:13,000
Similar thing as going by faith 
in the teacher. 

730
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,716
Instead, what you should do, 
Kalamas, when you know that 

731
00:42:16,716 --> 00:42:20,919
something is right, when you 
know that something is wholesome

732
00:42:20,919 --> 00:42:24,716
and it leads to happiness, when 
you know that something is 

733
00:42:24,716 --> 00:42:28,500
blameless and it leads you away 
from suffering, then you should 

734
00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:33,184
follow that as your leader. 
When you know the opposite is 

735
00:42:33,184 --> 00:42:37,000
true, something leads to 
suffering, is to be blamed and 

736
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:41,668
is not considered good by wise 
people in the world, then you 

737
00:42:41,668 --> 00:42:46,000
should not hold on to that and 
you should move away from that. 

738
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,335
Right? 
So what the Buddha is saying, 

739
00:42:48,335 --> 00:42:52,003
that in the final analysis, in 
the final reckoning, the thing 

740
00:42:52,003 --> 00:42:56,600
that we have to rely on in the 
end is our own experience. 

741
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,000
That is the most important 
thing. 

742
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,693
And of course that harks back 
straight to what I was saying 

743
00:43:02,693 --> 00:43:05,700
before, in the Buddha's own 
life, that's exactly what he 

744
00:43:05,700 --> 00:43:07,602
did. 
He went out searching in the 

745
00:43:07,602 --> 00:43:11,251
world, he found, he gave up all 
the teachings that were around 

746
00:43:11,251 --> 00:43:14,168
him. 
He was an agnostic, perhaps an 

747
00:43:14,168 --> 00:43:16,092
atheist, right? 
Don't tell anyone that I told 

748
00:43:16,092 --> 00:43:18,668
you Buddha was an atheist 
because they will get horrified 

749
00:43:18,668 --> 00:43:21,074
if I say that. 
Maybe not here, somewhere in 

750
00:43:21,074 --> 00:43:23,600
Australia, but if you go to some
Asian country and say that 

751
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,540
Buddha was an atheist, they will
think, this monk, we better get 

752
00:43:26,540 --> 00:43:29,000
rid of him quickly, or something
like that. 

753
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,144
But the Buddha was radical, 
right? 

754
00:43:31,144 --> 00:43:35,848
And he looked at things on his 
own and he is telling us, well 

755
00:43:35,848 --> 00:43:39,500
okay, I have awakened to the 
truth, I have seen what is going

756
00:43:39,500 --> 00:43:43,911
on, so I will tell you, but now 
is the time for you to 

757
00:43:43,911 --> 00:43:47,000
investigate by yourself and see 
if you also find the same truth.

758
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,001
So it comes back down, the final
analysis, it is our own 

759
00:43:51,001 --> 00:43:54,502
experience that matters. 
But remember that the point here

760
00:43:54,502 --> 00:43:57,000
is that experience is very 
broad. 

761
00:43:57,000 --> 00:43:59,860
It doesn't just mean the 
experience that you have when 

762
00:43:59,860 --> 00:44:02,500
you close your eyes and you look
inside of yourself. 

763
00:44:02,500 --> 00:44:05,200
Sometimes that experience that 
you have when you close your 

764
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,716
eyes and you look inside 
yourself, it's pretty, it's not 

765
00:44:08,716 --> 00:44:11,155
very inspiring, right? 
It doesn't get you anywhere. 

766
00:44:11,155 --> 00:44:15,730
All you see is this ramble of 
thoughts going on, oh no, or you

767
00:44:15,730 --> 00:44:20,156
feel tired, snoring away, right?
So it doesn't get you very far 

768
00:44:20,156 --> 00:44:23,002
in terms of insight and 
understanding the human mind, 

769
00:44:23,002 --> 00:44:26,000
because you are just seeing all 
this stuff happening. 

770
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,929
So there is more to human 
experience than just things that

771
00:44:29,929 --> 00:44:34,000
happen in meditation or looking 
at your mind in daily life. 

772
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,000
Part of that experience is also 
listening to other teachers, 

773
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,000
it's also listening to the 
Buddha, right? 

774
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,750
When the Buddha says to the 
Kalamas, don't listen to the 

775
00:44:43,750 --> 00:44:47,000
teachers, he is kind of 
contradicting himself, isn't it?

776
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,358
He is saying, don't listen to 
me, he is obviously saying 

777
00:44:49,358 --> 00:44:52,002
listen to me. 
So the point is context, the 

778
00:44:52,002 --> 00:44:54,000
point is how this works 
together. 

779
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:57,600
Your experience should match 
also the listening with the 

780
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,848
teacher, should match also with 
rational thought. 

781
00:44:59,848 --> 00:45:03,336
Of course we have to be 
rational, we can't throw out 

782
00:45:03,336 --> 00:45:06,000
rationality, that's not what the
Buddha is saying. 

783
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,770
He is saying we should put these
things together in the right 

784
00:45:08,770 --> 00:45:10,365
way. 
Sometimes rationality doesn't 

785
00:45:10,365 --> 00:45:14,000
work, because it's based on the 
wrong assumptions. 

786
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,334
If you build up this massive 
philosophy, but the foundation 

787
00:45:17,334 --> 00:45:21,001
is weak, because the assumptions
are wrong, then of course the 

788
00:45:21,001 --> 00:45:23,875
whole thing collapses. 
So rationality sometimes can be 

789
00:45:23,875 --> 00:45:28,000
wrong, and that's why sometimes 
we need to go beyond that. 

790
00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:31,000
And that is what the Buddha is 
talking about. 

791
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,000
And when you put all of those 
things together, that is when 

792
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,772
you get the system which starts 
to work, and when you can start 

793
00:45:37,772 --> 00:45:42,000
to make wise decisions about 
what is right and what is wrong.

794
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,400
So read the suttas, read the 
word of the Buddha, understand 

795
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,878
what it is about. 
One of the things the Buddha 

796
00:45:49,878 --> 00:45:53,000
says is that there is such a 
thing as rebirth. 

797
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,883
If you have strong confidence in
the Buddha, conviction that he 

798
00:45:56,883 --> 00:46:01,000
knew what he was talking about, 
this is one of the things that I

799
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:05,000
have found in my life as a monk,
been a monk for 21 years now, I 

800
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,000
love to read the word of the 
Buddha. 

801
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:11,001
If you have ever more confidence
in the genius of this person 

802
00:46:11,001 --> 00:46:14,002
called the Buddha, this 
spiritual genius who existed two

803
00:46:14,002 --> 00:46:18,502
and a half thousand years ago, 
if the Buddha says there is 

804
00:46:18,502 --> 00:46:22,848
rebirth, I can't just reject it,
I can't say the Buddha was 

805
00:46:22,848 --> 00:46:24,693
wrong. 
Here is this towering figure, 

806
00:46:24,693 --> 00:46:26,390
right? 
The father, the originator of 

807
00:46:26,390 --> 00:46:29,446
this whole Buddhism has been 
going for two and a half 

808
00:46:29,446 --> 00:46:32,079
thousand years. 
Who am I to say that he got it 

809
00:46:32,079 --> 00:46:33,000
wrong? 
I don't know. 

810
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,364
That is the right attitude. 
I am unsure, I am uncertain, but

811
00:46:37,364 --> 00:46:41,000
at the very least I should take 
this teaching seriously. 

812
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,000
And this is my challenge to 
those secular Buddhists. 

813
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,000
There isn't this distinction 
between secularism and religion,

814
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,000
certainly not religion in the 
way the Buddha taught it. 

815
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,430
It is an artificial distinction 
once you start to look to break 

816
00:46:54,430 --> 00:46:56,945
it down. 
So those secular Buddhists, the 

817
00:46:56,945 --> 00:47:02,000
challenge to all of those is to 
look at what the Buddha taught. 

818
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,643
If you really are a Buddhist, as
is implied in your name secular 

819
00:47:06,643 --> 00:47:11,000
Buddhist, you should take this 
teaching seriously. 

820
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:15,000
It is a responsibility to take 
this teaching seriously. 

821
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:18,500
And if you find, as I have 
found, and I can't see there is 

822
00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:22,144
any smidgen of doubt about it, 
that the Buddha said there is 

823
00:47:22,144 --> 00:47:25,000
rebirth, then you should have an
open mind. 

824
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:29,118
If you don't have an open mind, 
if you reject it, then you have 

825
00:47:29,118 --> 00:47:32,501
to ask yourself whether it 
really is appropriate to call 

826
00:47:32,501 --> 00:47:35,000
yourself a Buddhist in the first
place. 

827
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:38,715
It may sound a bit harsh, but 
really if you don't take the 

828
00:47:38,715 --> 00:47:41,625
Buddha, having been somebody 
special, have some special 

829
00:47:41,625 --> 00:47:45,572
insight, then really are you 
then a Buddhist is a very 

830
00:47:45,572 --> 00:47:49,191
important question to ask. 
So we have to be careful here. 

831
00:47:49,191 --> 00:47:52,778
If we are not careful, if we 
fashion Buddhism according to 

832
00:47:52,778 --> 00:47:57,057
Western values and Western 
ideas, we have to be careful we 

833
00:47:57,057 --> 00:48:00,848
don't throw out the baby. 
This baby is extraordinarily 

834
00:48:00,848 --> 00:48:04,539
valuable. 
It has the ability to change our

835
00:48:04,539 --> 00:48:08,200
lives, move us away from 
suffering, give us more 

836
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,000
happiness, right? 
Challenge some of the core 

837
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,500
assumptions in our life, and 
along the way transform us into 

838
00:48:15,500 --> 00:48:19,500
human beings with compassion, 
with kindness, with beauty 

839
00:48:19,500 --> 00:48:23,000
inside, banning all those 
negative things in the world. 

840
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,668
And as we do that, as we 
transform ourselves, we also 

841
00:48:26,668 --> 00:48:30,502
transform all the people that we
come in contact with. 

842
00:48:30,502 --> 00:48:35,145
We transform the society around 
us, and we have this ripple 

843
00:48:35,145 --> 00:48:39,000
effect spreading out in society,
very powerful, very beautiful. 

844
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,128
Let's not destroy that. 
Let's be very careful when we 

845
00:48:42,128 --> 00:48:45,540
take Buddhism into the Western 
world that we are honest about 

846
00:48:45,540 --> 00:48:48,000
what the teachings of the Buddha
really are. 

847
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:53,250
If not, we are going to do so 
much harm to this very, very 

848
00:48:53,250 --> 00:48:56,625
powerful teaching, this wisdom 
teaching that was bequeathed by 

849
00:48:56,625 --> 00:49:00,000
the Buddha two and a half 
thousand years ago. 

850
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,160
Let's be honest, let's be 
careful, let's be humble, and 

851
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,000
let's take care of it in the 
right way. 

852
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:18,085
Okay, that's it for tonight. 
Applause Okay, so there you are.

853
00:49:18,085 --> 00:49:21,000
So that's a bit about various 
issues. 

854
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:25,632
So, would anybody like to ask 
any questions or challenge me 

855
00:49:25,632 --> 00:49:29,000
that secular Buddhism is right, 
perhaps, or whatever? 

856
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:32,335
We have one person over there. 
Let's get the microphone. 

857
00:49:32,335 --> 00:49:40,500
Hold on one second please. 
Thank you for tonight, Ajahn. 

858
00:49:40,500 --> 00:49:44,500
It's always beautiful. 
The meditation is always very 

859
00:49:44,500 --> 00:49:48,000
blissful and your talks are very
interesting. 

860
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:53,000
I have a question on touch, on 
human touch. 

861
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:58,000
To me, that's one of the basic 
needs of human beings. 

862
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:03,145
I'm curious why different 
lineages of Buddhism, like the 

863
00:50:03,145 --> 00:50:06,000
Tibetan Buddhists, they're 
actually affectionate. 

864
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,848
They touch you when you're 
speaking to them, when you're 

865
00:50:09,848 --> 00:50:14,429
interacting with them, whether 
it's your lineage, does not 

866
00:50:14,429 --> 00:50:17,250
touch. 
So could you please speak about 

867
00:50:17,250 --> 00:50:19,617
that please? 
Okay, so you want me to touch 

868
00:50:19,617 --> 00:50:24,772
you, is that what you want? 
Okay, well the reason is, a lot 

869
00:50:24,772 --> 00:50:29,875
of it is just history, right? 
As always, history is very 

870
00:50:29,875 --> 00:50:33,919
important in this. 
One of the main reasons is that 

871
00:50:33,919 --> 00:50:38,824
according to the monastic rules,
it is an offence for a monk to 

872
00:50:38,824 --> 00:50:42,801
touch a woman, not always, not 
in all circumstances, but if you

873
00:50:42,801 --> 00:50:46,000
touch a woman, especially if you
have some desire for that woman,

874
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:51,000
oh I really like you, so if you 
come up here, if I touch you, 

875
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,000
it's a very bad thing for me to 
do from the monastic rules. 

876
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,000
And it is gender equal, it's the
same thing for the nuns. 

877
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,752
The nuns cannot touch men in 
exactly the same way, and that's

878
00:51:00,752 --> 00:51:03,252
why we do that. 
In many circumstances, no 

879
00:51:03,252 --> 00:51:05,752
problem. 
If I go out and somebody wants 

880
00:51:05,752 --> 00:51:09,336
to shake my hand, I always shake
a woman's hand, because 

881
00:51:09,336 --> 00:51:12,000
obviously you're just doing it 
for shaking hands. 

882
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:15,000
If there has been an accident 
and you need to help somebody, 

883
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:19,650
of course no problem whatsoever.
But you have to be careful, and 

884
00:51:19,650 --> 00:51:23,092
this is one of the reasons we 
don't do that, because it very 

885
00:51:23,092 --> 00:51:26,000
easily can go too far in one 
direction. 

886
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:29,668
The reason why the Tibetans 
don't do that is because the 

887
00:51:29,668 --> 00:51:32,878
Tibetan history of Buddhism is 
very very different, they don't 

888
00:51:32,878 --> 00:51:37,002
follow those rules in the same 
way that we do, and that is 

889
00:51:37,002 --> 00:51:39,000
basically why you have that 
distinction. 

890
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,600
But you know, it doesn't mean I 
don't like you, right, or don't 

891
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,000
touch you, it doesn't mean I 
don't have compassion for you, 

892
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,250
it doesn't mean I don't, I might
even like to give you a hug, but

893
00:51:47,250 --> 00:51:50,500
I don't do it, it's more like a 
spiritual hug rather than a 

894
00:51:50,500 --> 00:51:53,000
material hug. 
Look at it that way. 

895
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:59,625
Thank you. 
Okay, anyone else like to ask a 

896
00:51:59,625 --> 00:52:04,000
question? 
Eddie, Eddie is always good for 

897
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:11,125
a question. 
Ajahn Damali, don't you think 

898
00:52:11,125 --> 00:52:15,625
those circular Buddhists, there 
are people who don't know about 

899
00:52:15,625 --> 00:52:19,334
Buddhism, they might know a 
little bit this thing and they 

900
00:52:19,334 --> 00:52:21,925
make comments. 
The real Buddhist, the Buddha's 

901
00:52:21,925 --> 00:52:26,500
thought is, he asks us to look 
inside, to experience his 

902
00:52:26,500 --> 00:52:32,200
teaching, to awaken this thing, 
and to, how to say, he says, he 

903
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,556
teach suffering, and the ending 
of suffering, that's the inside 

904
00:52:36,556 --> 00:52:38,335
mind. 
Those circular Buddhists, they 

905
00:52:38,335 --> 00:52:42,464
are just like modern age, they 
know a little bit this thing and

906
00:52:42,464 --> 00:52:46,000
they have big mouth comments. 
That's what I think. 

907
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,000
Okay, sometimes that is true, I 
think, sometimes that's right, 

908
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,000
but sometimes it's not the full 
story. 

909
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,637
Sometimes some of these secular 
Buddhists are actually very well

910
00:52:54,637 --> 00:52:57,667
educated, and sometimes they 
know the Buddhist teachings very

911
00:52:57,667 --> 00:52:59,869
well. 
But I think the problem with the

912
00:52:59,869 --> 00:53:02,716
secular Buddhists is that they 
come to Buddhism with prior 

913
00:53:02,716 --> 00:53:06,643
views, with prior ideas about 
what is acceptable and what is 

914
00:53:06,643 --> 00:53:08,602
not. 
When you have already, when you 

915
00:53:08,602 --> 00:53:11,500
are already stuck with prior 
views and prior ideas, you are 

916
00:53:11,500 --> 00:53:14,500
not able to take on board the 
fact that the Buddha taught 

917
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:17,403
these things, because your mind 
is already skewed, your mind is 

918
00:53:17,403 --> 00:53:19,000
already distorted in a certain 
direction. 

919
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:23,000
We are all like that, we are all
blind to a certain extent. 

920
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,667
Whenever we come to something, 
we are all distorted by our 

921
00:53:26,667 --> 00:53:28,716
preconceptions and our 
pre-ideas, it has to be like 

922
00:53:28,716 --> 00:53:31,650
that, it can't be any different.
We all have that problem, and I 

923
00:53:31,650 --> 00:53:34,000
think that is the main problem 
with the secular Buddhists. 

924
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,334
That's why it's important, very 
often, they are actually very 

925
00:53:37,334 --> 00:53:39,200
sincere people. 
They love to read the suttas, 

926
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,002
they love to read the word of 
the Buddha, trying to understand

927
00:53:42,002 --> 00:53:46,000
it, but I think the problem is 
that there are certain things 

928
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,750
they are not willing to give up,
and that's why it is so hard for

929
00:53:49,750 --> 00:53:53,000
them to jump that hurdle, so to 
speak. 

930
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:58,000
The ones I read, it's only very 
shallow, conventional truth, 

931
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:02,780
they are good at that. 
The Buddha teaches the ultimate 

932
00:54:02,780 --> 00:54:07,003
truth, the real truth. 
I think a lot of secular 

933
00:54:07,003 --> 00:54:10,000
Buddhists, that's what I read, 
it's just very surface. 

934
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:14,000
Yes, of course that's true, most
of us are on the shallow level, 

935
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,668
very few are on the level of 
ultimate truth, it's pretty rare

936
00:54:16,668 --> 00:54:20,000
to find that in the world. 
Sometimes you find people, you 

937
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,800
find that's tingling, there's 
somebody, something special 

938
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:26,000
about somebody, right? 
Sometimes you meet those monks, 

939
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,667
you might even meet them here 
sometimes, and you meet those 

940
00:54:29,667 --> 00:54:33,200
monks, have something about them
that is slightly otherworldly, 

941
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:36,403
slightly different, and it kind 
of makes you feel, whoa, here, 

942
00:54:36,403 --> 00:54:40,184
maybe we are in the presence of 
more ultimate reality, and it's 

943
00:54:40,184 --> 00:54:43,144
very fascinating when that 
happens, because you react to 

944
00:54:43,144 --> 00:54:46,000
that, you can almost feel it 
sometimes, that is true. 

945
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:50,000
Okay, anybody else, everybody 
happy? 

946
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:55,092
Okay, so let's have one message 
from overseas, this is from 

947
00:54:55,092 --> 00:54:58,445
Dhirajupa, hello Dhirajupa, I 
know her quite well, from 

948
00:54:58,445 --> 00:55:03,750
Thailand, and I need to get old 
now, I need to bring back up my 

949
00:55:03,750 --> 00:55:06,000
glasses so I can see what is 
going on. 

950
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,667
Is there a sutta in which the 
Buddha expressed his view 

951
00:55:09,667 --> 00:55:14,000
whether monks should be involved
in politics? 

952
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:18,000
If they are allowed to do so, 
where is the borderline? 

953
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:22,000
That is a hard question to end 
the day on. 

954
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:28,860
So, I think, this is my take on 
this, the Buddha doesn't really 

955
00:55:28,860 --> 00:55:32,002
say all that much about 
involvement in politics, I think

956
00:55:32,002 --> 00:55:36,668
in those days it was obvious 
that if you were a monk you had 

957
00:55:36,668 --> 00:55:39,540
left the world, right? 
Leaving the world means leaving 

958
00:55:39,540 --> 00:55:42,000
politics behind. 
If you go back into politics 

959
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:46,000
again, you are moving back into 
the world, and I think you are 

960
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:50,000
losing some of that sense of 
being a monk or being a monastic

961
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:53,274
as a consequence. 
But one of the important things 

962
00:55:53,274 --> 00:55:56,911
is that to remember that 
everything is political at a 

963
00:55:56,911 --> 00:55:59,335
certain level, right? 
It's impossible to be completely

964
00:55:59,335 --> 00:56:02,286
neutral about things, as soon as
you open your mouth, somebody 

965
00:56:02,286 --> 00:56:05,715
can construe what you are saying
as being political one way or 

966
00:56:05,715 --> 00:56:08,224
another. 
If I say something about 

967
00:56:08,224 --> 00:56:12,800
abortion, for example, right? 
I can give you a purely Buddhist

968
00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:16,184
view on abortion, purely 
Buddhist, and yet some people 

969
00:56:16,184 --> 00:56:19,540
say, oh, you are being 
right-wing or you are being 

970
00:56:19,540 --> 00:56:22,200
left-wing or whatever, right? 
And you are taking political 

971
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:24,600
position, no, I am just giving 
you the Buddhist point of view, 

972
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,002
and you can make out of it 
whatever you want. 

973
00:56:27,002 --> 00:56:32,001
So sometimes it's very hard not 
to be political, in a sense, 

974
00:56:32,001 --> 00:56:36,911
people will read politics into 
what you say, even though you 

975
00:56:36,911 --> 00:56:39,600
are making purely Buddhist 
assertions about things. 

976
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:44,002
So this is the first thing, the 
world is political, and in that 

977
00:56:44,002 --> 00:56:46,000
sense, it's impossible to avoid 
it altogether. 

978
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:51,500
But at the same time, I think it
is important for many reasons 

979
00:56:51,500 --> 00:56:55,335
that we avoid taking deliberate 
political positions, whatever 

980
00:56:55,335 --> 00:56:59,335
our personal views might be 
about certain issues, because 

981
00:56:59,335 --> 00:57:02,400
Buddhism is a very broad tent, 
right? 

982
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,000
It should take in everybody, 
everybody should be welcome 

983
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:10,000
regardless of the political 
position, unless they have some 

984
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,145
really crazy view that it's okay
to exterminate all people or 

985
00:57:13,145 --> 00:57:16,574
something like that, then it 
might be a bit more difficult to

986
00:57:16,574 --> 00:57:19,602
accommodate them at least 100%, 
but maybe even then they can 

987
00:57:19,602 --> 00:57:22,000
come in slowly, right? 
And we can gradually change 

988
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,079
their view perhaps. 
So it should be a broad tent, 

989
00:57:25,079 --> 00:57:28,772
and if I sit here and I kind of 
proclaim certain political 

990
00:57:28,772 --> 00:57:31,092
views, it's going to turn people
off. 

991
00:57:31,092 --> 00:57:34,000
I don't really want to do that, 
right? 

992
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:37,386
There are good people on all 
sides of politics, whatever kind

993
00:57:37,386 --> 00:57:41,386
of position you have, and it is 
that goodness in people we need 

994
00:57:41,386 --> 00:57:44,772
to encourage, it is that 
goodness that can give rise to 

995
00:57:44,772 --> 00:57:47,869
insight and deep meditation, and
this is the most important thing

996
00:57:47,869 --> 00:57:50,000
here. 
So for that reason, I think it's

997
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:53,693
good not to be too involved in 
politics, because it turns a 

998
00:57:53,693 --> 00:57:56,860
large number of people off. 
All those who oppose that point 

999
00:57:56,860 --> 00:58:00,335
of view will be turned off if 
you are too involved. 

1000
00:58:00,335 --> 00:58:03,336
And also you are really 
neglecting, I think, your 

1001
00:58:03,336 --> 00:58:06,000
vocation as a monastic if you do
that. 

1002
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:13,112
Anyway, that's just my kind of 
little bit on that particular 

1003
00:58:13,112 --> 00:58:16,668
topic here. 
So that's it, everybody happy in

1004
00:58:16,668 --> 00:58:18,000
here? 
Everybody okay? 

1005
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,667
Okay, if that's the case, let's 
pay respect to Buddha Dhamma 

1006
00:58:21,667 --> 00:58:48,000
Sangha. 
Buddha Dhamma Sangha Buddha 

1007
00:58:48,000 --> 00:59:08,000
Dhamma Sangha Buddha Dhamma 
Sangha Buddha Dhamma Sangha 

1008
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:12,000
Dhamma Sangha