1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,040 We have this debate going on in our business. 2 00:00:02,040 --> 00:00:04,680 We started off and all of our stories were about the impact 3 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,440 and how cool this could be if we gang tackle these problems. 4 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,120 You know, that was the mission. And then we said, you know what, 5 00:00:10,120 --> 00:00:12,880 We don't quack like a duck. For these wealth investors, the 6 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,360 family offices and the registered investment advisors, 7 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:17,960 we have to look a little bit more like the products they're 8 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,360 used to seeing. We feel like we've gone too far 9 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:21,760 there. And I'm getting a lot of 10 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,680 communications from our clients saying like, don't shy away from 11 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,320 the impact that you're having, like that's it's OK to talk 12 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,960 about those things. And sometimes I feel like I 13 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,560 don't want anybody to think that I'm any less fit as a fiduciary 14 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:38,160 because our projects have impact and I'm not taking wild risks 15 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:40,640 with your money. People's money is important to 16 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:42,240 them. But damn it, we do have a huge 17 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:49,640 impact too. Hello, my name is Jigger Shaw 18 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:51,480 and I'm a clean energy entrepreneur. 19 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,840 And I'm Jamie Nolan, a clean energy communications executive. 20 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,600 And this is energy umpire. Hi, Jigger. 21 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,960 How's it going? Hello, Jamie. 22 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,880 Oh my goodness, is this like we had to do a double header today? 23 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:05,319 We're. Doing a double header. 24 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:07,520 We're wearing the same outfits. YouTube audience, sorry about 25 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,520 that. It's one of those things where I 26 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:15,720 just feel like there's so much going on in the world today that 27 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,280 it's hard to keep up and there's just so much good content. 28 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,800 So I'm really happy, you know, that Mike was able to come on 29 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:27,960 and explain Energia and, and I just think it's like right now, 30 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:30,600 like there's a lot of US focus and what he's doing around the 31 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:35,000 world is super important. There is so much going on and 32 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:39,400 it's a really exciting and frankly just fascinating time to 33 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,520 be working in the energy sector with the supply disruptions. 34 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,960 And from the closure of the Strait of Hormuz and the 35 00:01:45,960 --> 00:01:49,000 International Energy Agency coming out and saying that the 36 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,240 early signs are showing the very clear indications that the 37 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:57,040 supply disruptions are driving the accelerated adoption of 38 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,880 electrification solutions. So like China is exporting more 39 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:06,320 solar PV to Southeast Asia and Africa, EV sales in Asia, 40 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,880 specific EV sales in Latin America and Europe, heat pump 41 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,320 sales in Europe. I mean, none of these indicators 42 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,360 are you're not, you know, you're not hearing necessarily those 43 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:19,360 numbers in the US, which I think could be a result of, I mean, 44 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:21,280 we're a little bit isolated from some of the impacts. 45 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,000 There's also political considerations. 46 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:28,680 But internationally, absolutely, we are seeing the accelerated 47 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:32,280 adoption of renewables and electrification solutions. 48 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,520 And so I'm really excited to speak to Mike about what he's 49 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:38,840 seen in his company as a result of that. 50 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,760 Yeah, I was looking at the data from Ember and others. 51 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:47,680 In March alone, Nigeria was up 500% in terms of solar panel 52 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,480 imports. And so it's crazy town how many 53 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,800 people are putting this in. We are now in full rationing, 54 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,720 like JP Morgan said that we're going to hit tank bottoms by the 55 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:04,400 middle of July, which means that basically once you hit like 6.8 56 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,120 billion barrels of oil in the existing system, you're at the 57 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:13,240 lowest possible amount because you can't put 0 oil in the 58 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,600 pipelines. Otherwise like stuff starts to 59 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,840 break down. You can't let go below a certain 60 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,880 amount. Same with the tank, like you 61 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,640 can't like have 0 oil in the tank. 62 00:03:22,640 --> 00:03:24,680 They have to have a little bit in there at all times. 63 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,400 And so we're now actively rationing, like Estonia, South 64 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,480 Africa, other places are just actively rationing and saying 65 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:35,720 you can only have this much gasoline, this much diesel, this 66 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,880 much jet fuel. It's bonkers. 67 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:40,880 Like how this is happening around the world and I think 68 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:42,440 most Americans don't even know about it. 69 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:51,040 Right, let's get right into it. Energy Empire is powered by 70 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,760 octopus energy. I hear it at every conference. 71 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,160 We need more generation, more transmission. 72 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,040 You're saying we don't? We do, but we're ignoring 73 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,400 something faster. Sitting in people's homes and EV 74 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:11,440 is basically a 60 kWh battery idle most of the day across the 75 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,920 US. That's gigawatts we're not 76 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,240 using. Utilities have pitched demand 77 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,920 response for 20 years and it still hasn't scaled. 78 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,440 Why is this time different? Because we're not asking 79 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,040 customers to change behavior, we're automating it. 80 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:30,240 The grid treats customers like demand that actually distributed 81 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,960 infrastructure. Connect those assets and you can 82 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,920 shift load overnight at scale. So the constraint isn't 83 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,560 technology, it's. Coordination the solutions 84 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,760 already deployed, we just need to use it. 85 00:04:43,280 --> 00:04:47,200 Thanks, Natasha. That was Natasha Crowe, vice 86 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,520 president of marketing and comms for Octopus North America. 87 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,840 If that's the version of the Grid you want, check them out. 88 00:04:55,280 --> 00:05:04,440 The link is in the show notes. Mike, so good to have you on. 89 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:06,480 Hey Jigger, thanks for having me. 90 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,160 It's been a long time in the making, buddy. 91 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,080 Well, it has been we, we've known each other a long time. 92 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:15,480 I, you know, I have always been so impressed by your career, but 93 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:20,840 also just like your passion and like sort of persistence, right? 94 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:23,400 Like I think, oh, stop. But I'm, I'm going to blush. 95 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:25,600 Is this gideo? Yeah. 96 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,120 Well, like, I mean, when I first met you, you were doing green 97 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,680 Skies and so you were, you know, putting solar on Walmart and 98 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:34,160 Target rooftops and all that stuff. 99 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,680 Then you sold it. And then you were like, huh, 100 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:38,840 what do I do? And I think you like traveled 101 00:05:38,840 --> 00:05:41,040 the world with your family and I. 102 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,720 Tell you the first time I actually heard the name Jigger 103 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:45,680 shot it was in the green skies days. 104 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:48,480 And I don't think I ever told you this story, but real, real 105 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,080 quickly. You remember the first time you 106 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:52,960 heard of Jiggershaw? I gotta hear. 107 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,040 That absolutely, absolutely. I was negotiating a deal with 108 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,400 Walmart for the Puerto Rico stores and you know, we had 109 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,760 already done a number of Walmarts there, and so had Sun 110 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,280 Edison, so had Solar City, so had Sun Power. 111 00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:08,320 So it was kind of like the battlefield for CNI Solar at 112 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,640 that time, which was effectively the battlefield for all of solar 113 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:13,600 'cause that's where the industry was at in those times. 114 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:16,720 And I got the Walmart guy calling me up and saying, look, 115 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,920 someone's going a penny cheaper. You know, do you wanna, do you 116 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:21,640 wanna call it quits or do you wanna match it? 117 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,960 I said, I, I'll go, I'll go a penny cheaper than him. 118 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,240 All right, good. I got the deal, guys. 119 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:28,480 High fives. We just got the, the, the, the 120 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,960 Puerto Rican Walmart stores. Phone rings again. 121 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,320 It's Walmart again. Listen, he, he went a little 122 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,000 cheaper. Would you would you knock 123 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,440 another penny off? I'm right at the edge of you 124 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,640 know what, what works here? Like, OK, I'll go 1 penny 125 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:41,920 cheaper. Yay. 126 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:44,040 High fives. We just got the the Puerto Rico 127 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:45,680 Walmart projects. Phone rings again. 128 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:47,160 I'm like, all right, who is this guy? 129 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:49,840 They said, well, it's it's Jigger Shaw or son Edison. 130 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:51,320 He's he's trying to get these deals. 131 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,120 I said, all right, eventually I said let him have them. 132 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:56,200 And you, you guys got those stories? 133 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:57,840 I yielded. Yeah. 134 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,320 True story. I mean, that's Walmart for you. 135 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,960 Those guys, those are sharks. That's right. 136 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:07,640 That's how they get their prices low. 137 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:13,000 I give them props. Everyday low prices, you know, 138 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:14,840 care of the solar and energy industry. 139 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,360 Well, like look, you went around the world, you started like 140 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,840 figuring out that it's not just solar happening here, it's 141 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,360 happening everywhere and you decided to fix this product. 142 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,000 I'm fascinated by this because as somebody who's been in the 143 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,880 solar industry a long time, I've never owned solar stocks, right? 144 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:38,000 Like I just never really figured out why would I own a solar 145 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,280 module manufacturer stock or a solar inverter company stock or 146 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:44,880 this stock or that stock. Like my whole thing is I've 147 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,800 owned solar systems for years, right? 148 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,320 Like the solar system on the church down the street, the 149 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,200 solar system on the private school down the street or 150 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,960 whatever. But I'm also like an active 151 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:56,880 investor, right? Because I work in the solar 152 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,480 industry, etcetera, etcetera. So the IRS stuff works. 153 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:04,120 And so when you came along and you were like, well, you know, 154 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,920 like there's no way to really own a piece of a bunch of solar 155 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,960 projects and, you know, easily get in and out of the 156 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,000 transaction. I'm going to create my own 157 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,640 platform. I was like, damn, that's really 158 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,080 cool, right? So like, so like, how did you 159 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,160 get to, you know, creating this platform? 160 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,000 And you know, how did you decide this was something you wanted to 161 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,480 do? Well, honestly, Energia was an 162 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,600 evolutionary process jigger. It started off where one day at 163 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,640 Greenskies I had all this capabilities, engineering 164 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,760 hundreds of megawatts of projects that we owned, my 165 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,080 partners and I, And then with one stroke of the pen, I didn't 166 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,360 have any capabilities. I didn't have any solar 167 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,680 projects, but I did have some capital and I felt kind of naked 168 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:54,160 without my company around me and these assets that I loved. 169 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,080 And I knew the first thing I had to do was figure out what am I 170 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,400 going to do with this capital? I, I have to invest it in. 171 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:05,320 And as a story goes, I actually, I hired a bank to buy stocks for 172 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:06,200 me. You know, they come to your 173 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,280 house, they, they're going to buy your portfolio. 174 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,040 Do you want like the medium risk portfolio or the higher risk 175 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:12,680 portfolio or the lower risk portfolio? 176 00:09:12,680 --> 00:09:16,680 And it's like the you can cap out at like a 4% return as their 177 00:09:16,680 --> 00:09:18,600 projections sound like I don't want any of this. 178 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,640 So I decided to follow my instincts and get back into 179 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,320 solar, investing in asset class that I know and looking for 180 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:29,080 projects that I would want to own. 181 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,200 At the same time, my buddy Chris Sattler had sold his company 182 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,920 called North American Power. He was kind of in the same 183 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,720 situation. So we partnered up to make some 184 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,520 investments and we started buying some solar projects and 185 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,200 we said where are the most lucrative solar projects going 186 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,200 to be? And we assumed that they would 187 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,160 be in Brazil at the time. There's a a confluence of 188 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,480 circumstance that made Brazil an obvious hotspot. 189 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,640 We went down there and we started investing our own 190 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,000 capital. And then we quickly realized 191 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,920 that it's easier to find great solar investments than it is to 192 00:09:57,920 --> 00:09:59,280 fund them out of your back pocket. 193 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:01,480 And we had out kicked our own coverage. 194 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,080 So we called in friends and family. 195 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,160 And then friends and family evolved into how do we expand 196 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,280 this so more investors could invest alongside Chris and I. 197 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,240 And it became sort of an asset class by accident out of the 198 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:18,120 pursuit to put our own capital to work in this asset class that 199 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,520 we love and know so much. Yeah, no, I remember those days 200 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:26,160 because I think I called you, I think maybe 2019 and you were 201 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,720 already feeling like you are exposed. 202 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,600 I think, I think your wife even got on the phone was like, yeah, 203 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,040 he's exposed. Like let's figure this out. 204 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,640 And and you know, like, and I think we like we jumped in and 205 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,520 we invested. And part of I think the 206 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:44,360 challenge with this space is that, you know, there are big 207 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,920 players, right, like the IFC, Brookfield, other folks who are 208 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,840 who are interested in the space, but they really don't kick in 209 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:53,800 until you have $200 million worth of assets. 210 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:58,080 And so each one of these projects was like 345 million 211 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,240 bucks. And you know, like, like even 212 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,320 for somebody with a fat wallet like you, like, you know, like, 213 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,680 you know, breaks you. You can only buy so many of 214 00:11:06,680 --> 00:11:08,520 them, you know? And then you're like, now what? 215 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:10,520 Right. And so like, you're in this 216 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:15,560 weird situation where you know, you can buy really good quality 217 00:11:15,560 --> 00:11:19,560 assets, you can put money to work, but you can't, like, you 218 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:21,680 can't get to $200 million, right? 219 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,280 And so like, so you, you decided that this was a problem you were 220 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,120 going to tackle, right? Is that how it worked? 221 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:30,760 Yeah. I mean, there was no easy way 222 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,800 for me to invest back into solar energy projects at the yields 223 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,880 that I know solar energy projects should be producing. 224 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,320 The nearest thing we have in the marketplace was sort of the 225 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,480 yield Co, but the yield Co is not what we're doing. 226 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:48,800 There's a bunch of problems with yield codes. 1 is that the price 227 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:53,360 is traded on an exchange, so it gets detached from the NAV of 228 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,680 the underlying assets. So you may be buying those 229 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:58,480 projects, a proportional share, those projects at a good price 230 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:00,880 or a lousy price, but you really have to be an expert to 231 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,160 determine if the price is a good one or not. 232 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,680 Well, I mean, just to interpret that for people like I think 233 00:12:05,680 --> 00:12:07,880 you're absolutely right that like the way the Yield Co works 234 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,280 is that if too many people buy the stock, then the stock price 235 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:13,960 goes up and the yield goes down, right. 236 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:18,320 So if people have over purchased the stock, then the yield is now 237 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,360 a 3% dividend yield. And if the stock tanks right and 238 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,920 craters, well now the yield is like 8%, right. 239 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,920 And so it depends on what price you get in on the stock. 240 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,120 Whereas if you own a project, then you're at the net asset 241 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:38,320 value, you you buy in at the price that it took to build the 242 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,400 project and so you get the full return. 243 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,480 So there's nobody on energy at dot com that has a lousy 244 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,200 experience. They get the NAB divided by 245 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,480 outstanding shares. That's the share price. 246 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,640 And that's what the share price should be to equalize investors 247 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,040 because they all own the same basket of underlying solar 248 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:58,960 energy projects. Why would they have different 249 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,120 outcomes? So we took our securities off 250 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,520 the exchange. We only sell them through 251 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,000 energy.com. Yeah, I mean, it's so brilliant, 252 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,120 right? Because basically, like if I 253 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,560 give you a dollar, I get the return on that dollar, but if I 254 00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:14,360 sell, I just get the dollar back. 255 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,360 Like the dollar doesn't go up or down, the dollar stays. 256 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,360 The dollar I'm I'm but I'm getting like the yield on that 257 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:22,880 dollar based on how the solar systems perform. 258 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,120 I think of it, I mean the dollar will depreciate, right, because 259 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:27,800 solar assets appreciate over time. 260 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,000 But I look at it as like you're getting a, a ticket under the 261 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,360 dividends bus. And as long as you're on the 262 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:35,320 bus, you're harvesting those dividends. 263 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:37,320 And if you want to get off the bus, you sell your ticket to the 264 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,320 next guy. He comes on, you get off, now 265 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,160 he's on the dividends bus and he's enjoying that cash flow off 266 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,320 that. And that's exactly how it really 267 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:45,560 works. I like that. 268 00:13:45,560 --> 00:13:48,720 I like that analogy. So just to make this a little 269 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,480 bit more easy to understand first, I mean, obviously Mike, 270 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,200 you're a very sophisticated investor, Of course, Jigger is 271 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:57,640 as well. So I want to just boil this down 272 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,080 for like a more everyday listener, if you will, maybe 273 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,320 someone who who isn't familiar with some of the stuff we're 274 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,040 talking about. Meaning not your brother. 275 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,520 Not my brother who works on Wall Street, not my brother. 276 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,160 So Mike, if I want, if I want exposure to AI, can I can buy 277 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,560 stock and NVIDIA. If I want exposure to the real 278 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:19,320 estate market, I can buy into a real estate investment trust or 279 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,760 a REIT. But if there's a solar farm 280 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:25,800 being built outside my town or thousands across the world at 281 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,760 any given time, I can't really own a piece of that. 282 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,840 So why has energy infrastructure historically been closed off to 283 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:37,840 just an ordinary like 4 O1 Ki trade? 284 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,960 You know, in my free time for fun type of investors. 285 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:44,480 You know, what we're doing has been tried before. 286 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:49,080 So we didn't come up with the idea of taking solar energy 287 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,920 projects, converting them into securities and selling 288 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,400 participating shares in those projects. 289 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,480 That's kind of been around, but it hasn't worked. 290 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,560 And there's a couple of reasons why I think I know why it didn't 291 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,480 work in the past. I don't know for sure, but #1 is 292 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,800 that the policy that allows us to create these securities is 293 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,800 the JOBS Act, which is fairly recent policy, Obama 294 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,960 administration stuff. So it wasn't until recently that 295 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,920 we could create securities and sell them broadly to any 296 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:17,880 individual who wanted to buy them. 297 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,680 You know, if you think about Mosaic, one of the kind of 298 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:25,600 famous predecessors of Energia. They can build a player and Dan 299 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,240 Rosen. They were before the JOBS Act, 300 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:30,040 so they had to figure out some other way. 301 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,280 I don't know how they did it, but so the JOBS Act was 302 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,720 critical. And then also, I think a lot of 303 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,280 other attempts I've seen at this have been people who had like 304 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,960 the concept and the IT of it all, maybe like sort of a dorm 305 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,840 room startups. But what really you need in 306 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,080 order to do what we do is the solar expertise. 307 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,640 You need to really know the asset class and know how to 308 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,000 avoid risks. And it's a very difficult asset 309 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,240 class for the uninitiated. So I'm glad we have a whole, you 310 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,440 know, company under our belt before we even started offering 311 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,280 these services to individual investors. 312 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:04,000 But that's probably another part. 313 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,720 There's a couple of companies I see out there right now in fact 314 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,040 doing something similar to energy, but maybe I don't 315 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:14,120 believe have the solar energy experience to really guide 316 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:15,920 investors capital in this asset class. 317 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,800 And it's more than solar energy experience, right? 318 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,040 Because if you're going to buy projects in Brazil or South 319 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,760 Africa or India or places you also have like currency risk, 320 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,560 you have asset management responsibilities, right? 321 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,720 If something goes wrong, someone's got to get, get called 322 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,920 and be like, hey, my system's down, go fix it, right? 323 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,520 And so like, how do you deal with all of that? 324 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:40,720 What you're really describing is grit. 325 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,080 You really have to be made a steal to do what we're doing, 326 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:46,360 and it is hard because there's so many challenges. 327 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,920 I just got off a call right before this podcast with my 328 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,840 asset management team, and we're just spent two hours going from 329 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,600 one catastrophe after the next. And that's normal for us. 330 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,840 That's pretty standard operating procedures. 331 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,560 I'm not worried about it, but that's what we do for a living 332 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,920 is we we fix problems. And I've got a team around me 333 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,520 who has a great tool set for solving those problems and they 334 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,880 have the grit to get after it. And I think that those things 335 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,520 are all necessary to execute the way we've executed the last five 336 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,160 years. So a lot of your projects are in 337 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,319 emerging markets. You mentioned Brazil. 338 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:26,440 And so I think when most average investors here emerging markets, 339 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,440 they're of course thinking political risk, corruption and 340 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:32,120 stability. But the returns that you are 341 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:34,840 able to produce at Energy are actually telling a vastly 342 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,760 different story than that. Brazil around 14%, South Africa 343 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:44,360 near 10% and then much lower in the US But why are our instincts 344 00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:46,440 around these emerging markets so wrong? 345 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,120 What would you collect there? If you look back like how have 346 00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:53,800 people actually gained exposure to emerging markets, Most 347 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,000 commonly it's been through like either their public stock 348 00:17:58,000 --> 00:17:59,240 exchanges. You know, you can go on the 349 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,160 Gilberg public Stock Exchange. You know, many countries in 350 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,920 emerging markets have their own exchanges and those exchanges 351 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:06,720 have been pretty lousy performance. 352 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:11,120 There are periods where they're they work well, but mostly it 353 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:14,320 has underperformed. So I don't think a lot of people 354 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,200 have had direct access to investment opportunities the way 355 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,720 that they can at Energyia. And then I think that also the 356 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,880 world is broad and complex and Americans are famously, and 357 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:29,160 rightfully so, like they don't really understand these markets 358 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,320 as well as maybe they should. We view as Americans, other 359 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,480 countries to be bizarre, dangerous places. 360 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,240 And while that's true, we're all so bizarre and dangerous, and we 361 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,120 also under appreciate the vastness of these economies. 362 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,240 And Brazil is a massive economy. There's extraordinary wealth 363 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,480 there. There are sophisticated, highly 364 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,400 educated people conducting good business there. 365 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:56,200 And that's what we're looking for when going to these markets 366 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,800 is the cream of the crop. And when you get into the right 367 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,280 pockets, you know, these bubbles within these emerging markets, 368 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:05,280 they don't feel a lot like emerging markets. 369 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,680 They feel like sophisticated places to do business where you 370 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,400 have to be aware of things like foreign exchange because that 371 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,280 brings you exposure to the entire market. 372 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,040 You know, not I can't bubble myself out of the foreign 373 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,360 exchange risk. But look at the foreign exchange 374 00:19:18,360 --> 00:19:20,400 situation right now over the last five years. 375 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,840 The dollar just keeps on pounding, getting pounded rather 376 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,360 by foreign currencies, and that's been a huge advantage to 377 00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:32,000 my clients who are benefiting from owning real or Rand or 378 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:33,680 pesos or whatever the case may be. 379 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,960 So it's the I the beholder, and looking at the facts. 380 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,680 And the facts tell a different story than the initial way 381 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,840 Americans might view emerging market exposure. 382 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,280 So take us through the experience of an investor on the 383 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,720 platform, right? So they've got $1000, they want 384 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,920 to invest it. They go to energy.com and they 385 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,000 register and set up a profile and do they immediately get a 386 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,920 basket of all of these countries? 387 00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:03,280 Can they invest in one country? You know how does How does this 388 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,040 work? So we basket it like if you if 389 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:11,440 we had a skew in SKU, like it would be an individual 390 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,320 investment thesis. So I have a thesis around 391 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,320 community solar in Brazil. I have a thesis around private 392 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,360 credit in Colombian solar. I have a thesis around energy 393 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:24,640 plus storage in South Africa. Each one of those is a product. 394 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,160 The way we look at it and the way to use the the platform the 395 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,280 best is to get a mixture of those products, which we call 396 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,200 the energy a core. You want to get diversified? 397 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,560 Yeah, sure. Today's Brazil's a 14 and 398 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,240 Africa's A10. But you know it's a long term 399 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,280 investments that we want you to compound this for 20 years. 400 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,960 So in order to protect yourself from changes in those rates that 401 00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:50,360 we're getting today, we want you to diversify and most of our 402 00:20:50,360 --> 00:20:52,880 customers do. But some customers, you know, 403 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,720 maybe you're from Brazil and you just really want the Brazil 404 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,760 product because it reminds you at home, all right, you can just 405 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:00,400 buy Brazil. Or maybe, you know, you're risk 406 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,920 taker and you just want that 14 and can't get it out of your 407 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:04,600 mind, Then you just go for Brazil. 408 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,160 But you can also choose to blend it together. 409 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,640 It's really up to their discretion. 410 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,440 So here's the math. I think that should make people 411 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:14,520 realize this isn't just democratization for its own 412 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,560 sake, right you? If you have a normal $500 413 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,480 million infrastructure fund, there's no chance that they're 414 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,720 going to do a $5,000,000 solar project in South Africa. 415 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,440 It's too small. Due diligence costs eat the 416 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,280 return. But if 5000 people put $1000 417 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,320 each, they can fund that exact project, right? 418 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,320 So. So what's the structural reason 419 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,440 why you can do this and a $500 million infrastructure fund 420 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:43,480 can't? I think that as check sizing at 421 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,120 check writing ability increases, you need to start looking for 422 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:50,600 larger assets. If you don't start from where we 423 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,000 started from. Remember I'm a CNI solar guy 424 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,240 through and through and I've been doing those portfolios of 425 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,000 Walmart's like we were talking about earlier. 426 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:04,040 You kind of trained me how to treat many bespoke projects as a 427 00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:06,480 large institutional type of investment. 428 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,280 So we cluster things really well where we have a lot of software 429 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:15,120 assistance on our due diligence. We push a lot of the the 430 00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:18,320 laborious parts of due diligence back on the developer like you 431 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,800 tell me you know how the interconnection is working 432 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,800 rather than us figuring it out. And when you've told me to my 433 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,480 satisfaction then we'll read it. So that's all software enabled 434 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,760 due diligence efficiencies. So we try to gain those little 435 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,360 efficiencies wherever we can, so we can stay in that middle 436 00:22:34,360 --> 00:22:37,160 market segment because we think that's where the largest yield 437 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,120 opportunities are. These are the abandoned 438 00:22:39,120 --> 00:22:41,600 segments. Institutional capital can't and 439 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,480 won't find these opportunities, which leaves very few competing 440 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,560 investors, and that's where our money gets the best return. 441 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,840 I'm hearing a lot of trial and error that you clearly have like 442 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:57,960 a very strong overall thesis about how your product will work 443 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,040 and where the sweet spots are in terms of your projects. 444 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,280 But the platform didn't take off overnight. 445 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,800 So walk us a little bit through the early years. 446 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,720 What wasn't working? What assumptions did you make at 447 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,560 the beginning that turned out to be wrong? 448 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,680 And how? Like, at what point did you 449 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,560 really start to make some traction? 450 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,800 Yeah, I don't view it that we were wrong or that it wasn't 451 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,320 working at all. I actually felt that it was 452 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,600 absolutely going to take grueling years of scaling 453 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,640 slowly, inch by inch before we got a critical mass underneath 454 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:30,720 us. And that's exactly what 455 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,600 happened. And I felt that we had to 456 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,480 prepare for the long road ahead when we started at Energia and 457 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,960 the way that we got through those earlier stages, while 458 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,240 we're ramping up, every day another investor comes in. 459 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:44,960 Every day hundreds of new investors come in. 460 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:49,600 It's really exciting now, like, but to get here was a process 461 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,320 where there wasn't enough money to manage to pay fees to us that 462 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,360 would keep the lights on. So we had to do like side 463 00:23:56,360 --> 00:23:59,080 missions and we would do these quests. 464 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,000 And for example, Jigger came in and he did an investment with 465 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,680 us. We did a deal with Brookfield, 466 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:09,360 we did a deal with BTG Pactua, we did a deal with a listed 467 00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:11,720 trust in the UK. And these are just more or less 468 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,880 side hustles because we're capable of doing institutional 469 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,920 Capital Management. We use that as a bridge to get 470 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,600 to the point where we could live exclusively on our retail 471 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,960 investment products. And we're there now. 472 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,640 We've cut the umbilical cord about two years ago. 473 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,680 I don't think you'll see Energia giving tailored investment 474 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,320 products to large institutions ever again. 475 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,960 Everybody comes in through the front door now because we have 476 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,240 enough assets under management to keep the company profitable 477 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,560 in perpetuity. And what you really want to do 478 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,280 is service our base of clients and give them the best user 479 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,280 experience and most transparency we can and and now we get to do 480 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,080 that. So help me understand, you know 481 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:01,320 who the typical investor is today and where it started, 482 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,640 right? Like so you know, was it a 483 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,920 climate investor, an impact investor? 484 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,080 Was it a grandmother that wanted a higher yield on their fixed 485 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:12,640 amount of savings? Like you know what is the ideal 486 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:14,720 profile? Well, it's, it's pretty funny. 487 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,600 It kind of like, looks like me. It's, you know, they're like a 488 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,200 46 year old, slightly overweight balding guy with a couple of 489 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:28,040 kids. But our, you know, our average 490 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,720 investor is in their 40s. It leans slightly towards males. 491 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,960 They're probably from one of the coasts or Texas, lot of 492 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,400 investors in Texas and they're educated. 493 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,280 They want, they understand that energy infrastructure is a 494 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,640 rational asset class that has different characteristics and 495 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,280 complementary characteristics to their stocks and bonds. 496 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,960 And when you get it, you get it. And when you get it, you're 497 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:54,920 going to be a client with ours for a long time. 498 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,680 We have something like a 98% retention rate. 499 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,440 So very rarely does a customer sell their stock, even though 500 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,240 anybody can click a sell button at any anytime they want. 501 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,440 And people stick around because these guys are interested in the 502 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,840 power of compounding yield. You know, for me, I use the 503 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:16,320 platform as a father to prepare for my, my kids college tuition 504 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,080 down the road. And I want to start putting 505 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,480 capital to work that's going to compound. 506 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,520 So, and I have 20 years. My, my youngest is 4 years old. 507 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,040 I got plenty of time to snowball something for his college 508 00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:28,840 education. And I think I don't know what 509 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,520 purposes my clients use their money for, but I would imagine 510 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:36,000 it's long term planning. So I imagine that this asset 511 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,280 class is not correlated to the stock market here in the United 512 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,520 States. So this is, you know, I would 513 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,320 imagine like a separate asset class somewhere else to put your 514 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,040 money kind of like I have some money in like in art, for 515 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:49,720 example. That's right. 516 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,840 I we view it as very complementary to a stock. 517 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,240 I mean, I wouldn't bet against America and American businesses. 518 00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:57,960 So. And if you look over the last 519 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,680 five years, the S&P 500 has smoked Energia while we've done 520 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,440 a very respectable 12% yield. The S&P 500's done better, but 521 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,240 it will always be like that. And there are times when the 522 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,880 stock market can't sustain an overheating phase, whereas our 523 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,360 assets don't really have that. Our assets sell power, they're 524 00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:20,680 steel in the ground. So we look at them as real 525 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,280 assets. Our contracts are inflation 526 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,680 adjusted almost always and that's a huge benefit and that 527 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:30,800 has nothing to do, no presidential tweets or other 528 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,000 market condition or hurricane. You know that those things don't 529 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,360 change my customers obligation to buy power from me and the 530 00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:43,160 price of which I charge them. So I like the lack of 531 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,200 correlation and I think our customers do. 532 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:50,000 And I'm not proposing everybody goes 100% solar the way like I 533 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,120 am. I think that people probably 534 00:27:52,120 --> 00:27:55,560 should sleeve some of their investment strategy into a real 535 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,320 asset class that's inflation adjusted and connected to power 536 00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,160 rates like Energia. So it belongs in your portfolio 537 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,800 and to what degree is really up to your planning strategy. 538 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,080 And most people view this as real assets, right? 539 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,440 So it's similar to like investing in real estate or 540 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,760 other real assets, right? So they're not supposed to beat 541 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,760 the S&P. They're supposed to be a 542 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,360 diversification play, you know, like, I guess it's it's also 543 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:20,880 probably pretty good in a Mad Max situation, right? 544 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,280 I mean, if we get to the end of the world, who are going to need 545 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,600 that solar power off, you know, those, those. 546 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,200 And so I think, you know, those are real assets that I want to 547 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,240 hold. Yeah, and I have. 548 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,200 What I'm debating right now is energy prices are going to go up 549 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,720 steeply. Generally, they go up a little 550 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:41,080 bit faster than the consumer price index inflation. 551 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,440 If you look over the last 20 years, energy's a little bit 552 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,480 faster inflation than a basket of general goods. 553 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,840 I think that's about to sky rocket and and you're going to 554 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,720 see energy out in flakes, CPI by leaps and bounds. 555 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,400 And for that reason, this instinct of ours to always have 556 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,920 your energy price permanently hedged through a power purchase 557 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,800 agreement over 20 years, that's losing its advantages because 558 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,360 maybe I don't want to be so nailed down to today's energy 559 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,240 prices with an escalator. Maybe I want to take some 560 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,160 exposure to markets and see where energy goes. 561 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,200 So we're trying to find ways to responsibly hedge that a little 562 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,280 bit and take some projects that are open to market exposure and 563 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,160 then nail some others down with credible contracts. 564 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,040 But that's the key to really making money in this space is 565 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,760 acknowledging where we're at in energy as a globe. 566 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,000 And so you must get all sorts of crazy questions that come in 567 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,720 from the investors that, you know, want to invest any like 568 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,760 really interesting questions come in from retail investors. 569 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,960 I mean, my client base has an obsession over batteries. 570 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,120 So I get asked the battery question a real lot. 571 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,040 And I've been pushing back against batteries since I 572 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,800 started in this industry 20 years ago when everybody said 573 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,520 batteries were coming right around the corner 20 years ago. 574 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,280 It's the bacon of the grid, Mike. 575 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,280 The bacon of the grid. Mike, I'm just warning you 576 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,080 before you get started here. Well, maybe I should keep my 577 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,040 opinion to myself, but. Never. 578 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:10,560 We'll see. We'll see. 579 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,360 But I think batteries, the market tells you when batteries 580 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,960 are needed and it tells you that through the delta between peak 581 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,200 pricing and off peak pricing. And when that delta gets big 582 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,840 enough to amortize the cost of a battery, call me up. 583 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,480 I'd be happy to invest in a battery with you, but I don't 584 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,080 know too many markets that have that condition right now and 585 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,800 batteries aren't amortizing. The more common way people sell 586 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,960 batteries is as battery backup, you know, to reduce 587 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,120 intermittency or access to energy. 588 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,800 So South Africa, we, I have a ton of batteries in my South 589 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,640 Africa portfolio. Makes sense the grid was off 6 590 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,640 hours a day, but that's a completely different use case to 591 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,960 the one people actually imagine. The fervor over batteries is 592 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:53,560 actually over shifting entire grid, you know, energy over 593 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,200 time. Well that it hasn't really taken 594 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,120 off anywhere to any sustainable degree yet. 595 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,520 So that's a question I'm always kind of defending myself 596 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:03,760 against. Why I'm not, you know, 597 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,560 gangbusters and big batteries right now. 598 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,520 It's because the the price hasn't signaled that I should 599 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,400 be. So in the US right now, the 600 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,240 whole conversation is about gigawatts. 601 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,600 How do we power data centers? How do we keep the lights on for 602 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,320 AI, electrification, etcetera, etcetera. 603 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,200 And of course, that's a real problem. 604 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,320 But in a lot of the world, people don't have reliable 605 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,040 electricity at all. You mentioned that. 606 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,360 So pick one, energy, a project who's getting power today that 607 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,320 wasn't maybe three to five years ago? 608 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,120 And what does that mean for them and for their lives? 609 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,120 So our projects range from like one kilowatt on a pedestal with 610 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:44,800 a battery all the way to 75 megawatts in South Africa 611 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,960 feeding the National Grid called S com. 612 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,520 So we have a huge range of use cases for the types of solar 613 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,800 that we do. But to give you like one 614 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,440 example, I'll give you 1, where energy is desperately needed in 615 00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,880 our Columbia portfolio, which has recently launched. 616 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,480 It's really gaining steam. People really like the product, 617 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,080 and that is mostly a debt vehicle. 618 00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,160 There's some tax reasons why instead of buying solar energy 619 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:15,520 projects in Columbia, we lend money to projects instead. 620 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,320 And projects are collateral. Yeah, I love solar projects as 621 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,800 collateral because I know exactly what to do if I need to 622 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:26,000 step in there and take control. But it's more tax efficient for 623 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,360 me to lend them money. And in this case, you have about 624 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,160 250,000 households in Colombia that don't have access to 625 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,080 electricity. These are in states like 626 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,800 Laguajita and kind of remote parts of Colombia. 627 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,800 And there's a program where the government has promised to pay 628 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,640 me an amortizing rate if I install a small solar plus 629 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,720 battery system for those households. 630 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,760 And we've done, you know, not us, our development partner, 631 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,120 they're called Helios, a wonderful company. 632 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,960 They've done 20,000 of them so far. 633 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,680 So it's really impactful. And and what these people do 634 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:03,200 with electricity is fascinating. But you know, we can have a 635 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,040 whole podcast just on these use cases of off grid solar, but 636 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,920 that's just one example. And we're not, you know, here 637 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,200 just for the impact. The impact is inherent from 638 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:14,200 doing great business deals with energy. 639 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:16,880 Yeah. No, I mean, I think there's 640 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,600 close to 700 million people in the world that don't have access 641 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,880 to basic electricity. And I think what you're doing, I 642 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:27,200 mean, folks like Sun King, others, I mean, truly inspiring. 643 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,760 And, you know, I think solar is the fastest way that we're 644 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,400 getting those 700 million people the basic energy. 645 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,640 I mean, there was no plan to bring a transmission line out 646 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,000 there, I can tell you that. And you just have to drive it 647 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,880 out there and some solar panels in a truck. 648 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:42,880 That's how you get power out to those locations. 649 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,200 And it works and it works really well. 650 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,360 They pump water. They make more handicrafts. 651 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,040 They, they, they buy electrical devices. 652 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,800 It's really exciting to see what happens when communities get 653 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,000 connected to the grid because, man, they're going to fall so 654 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,080 far behind so fast in this modern world that we have. 655 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,400 They got to have electricity. We just did a school project in 656 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,680 Kenya. This is a school. 700 kids go to 657 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,080 the school, 400 of them sleep on the floor of the school because 658 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,040 they walk so far to get to the classroom. 659 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,440 They had no electricity. You know, how are you supposed 660 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,639 to participate in the modern economy? 661 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,760 And it's possible that a kid from this area of Kenya could 662 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,239 get an IT job. Why not? 663 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:20,440 You got fingers. You can code. 664 00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,480 You can participate on the Internet in any profession, 665 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:26,320 unless you've never seen a computer before or know how to 666 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,440 use the Internet. And these are bright kids who 667 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,440 work hard and want to learn. So giving access to electricity 668 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,400 is AI. Think it's a pretty important 669 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,080 thing. So just to finish up, I want to 670 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,360 understand where your business is now. 671 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,159 So you've got about $500 million worth of assets under management 672 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:46,679 now, which is a huge number of assets. 673 00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:49,440 I mean, it's truly impressive. Congratulations on that. 674 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,800 Thanks, Jagger. A lot of people deem it really 675 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,239 small because they're thinking about the trillion dollar 676 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:56,280 industry and the trillion dollar energy problem. 677 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,480 But like we're really proud. That's a lot of projects. 678 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,600 You're right and and we're just starting. 679 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,920 And how many investors is that? On our platform with about 680 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,960 19,000 people who have accounts, but not all of them have 681 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,360 invested. So it's it's probably about 80% 682 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,840 of that are investors. That's awesome. 683 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:16,760 That's awesome. And and when you think about 684 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:21,240 where you're headed from here, right, you're adding like what 685 00:35:21,240 --> 00:35:24,120 approximately every quarter to the. 686 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,160 Right now we do about 5,000,000 bucks a month. 687 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,320 Wow. Yep. 688 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,640 That's a lot. That's not bad. 689 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,360 It's, you know, because you can, if you lever that, do the math, 690 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,320 it's $75 million of equity. You could, oh, I mean, it's 691 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,720 amazing. And you know, one, one of the 692 00:35:39,720 --> 00:35:42,240 thing I was going to ask you about is, you know, you've got 693 00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:44,960 this massive dislocation with the Straits of Hormuz. 694 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,800 A lot of these countries that you're working in are using 695 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,360 diesel, right? And the solar is coming in to 696 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,560 offset diesel. How have you thought about your 697 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,880 business, you know, in this time of like, just huge disruption 698 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,560 where people's lives are just being turned upside down with 699 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,920 rationing, frankly. This goes back to this argument. 700 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:08,760 I think in the United States right now, there's this concern 701 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,240 that solar's best days in the past, and it's just so wrong. 702 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,120 And then I tell people that 80% of all new power generation 703 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,000 worldwide for the past five years has been solar. 704 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:21,240 And they're like, really? I didn't. 705 00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:23,120 I didn't know that. Yeah, it's all solar. 706 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,160 When we talk about energy, we're talking about solar energy and 707 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,160 nothing other than that. And that's not really. 708 00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:34,200 Batteries in there. Well, it's not a generation 709 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,440 asset, but yes. Man, man, you were playing hard 710 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,120 to get. I like it, Yeah. 711 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,800 No, I've been I've been told this battery thing for long 712 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,600 enough, but the we'll, we'll see where we're going to need 713 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:51,160 batteries undoubtedly in huge quantities and I invite it all. 714 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:55,200 But we're talking about solar is the number one most important 715 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,840 technology in our world right now and it is necessary for AI 716 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,360 to matter. So you could argue that solar is 717 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:07,640 more important than AI and it I can't imagine not being able to 718 00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:09,920 do a solar project in every single country in the world. 719 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,320 If you said, Mike, I want a solar project in Uzbekistan, I 720 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,360 could pencil it because it's just works everywhere now. 721 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,480 It's such an exciting time for our industry, despite, you know, 722 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,000 the noise and sort of the anti solar sentiment that may be 723 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,400 around our our marketplace. It's it's not affecting what's 724 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,520 going in the ground. That's when I think about the 725 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,440 Straits of Hormuz. It's just another point that 726 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,400 makes me more right that solar's best days are in front of it and 727 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,880 there's so much work to be done. So we're right where we want to 728 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:39,720 be. Now, well said. 729 00:37:39,720 --> 00:37:44,040 And then in terms of talking to the 19,000 customers and getting 730 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,520 them to, you know, get their uncles and cousins and others to 731 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,320 like invest, etcetera, like what works? 732 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,120 Like what is like, you know, because you've tried all sorts 733 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,400 of messages I'm sure over the last like 5 years, like what 734 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,640 works to convince people to invest. 735 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,560 OK so first thing that doesn't work. 736 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,480 I could tell you that like we did NPR podcasts and we played 737 00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:08,000 advertisements for like 3 months. 738 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,720 One out of every nine NPR podcasts played our 739 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,840 advertisement and we got 00 investors from it. 740 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,200 I was like wow, I everybody would have thought that would 741 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,240 have been wildly successful. Then we did like, you know, 742 00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:27,240 Climate week in Central Park concerts with 35,000 fans all 743 00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:32,440 seeing our video 0 did not have it didn't work, it didn't work. 744 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,640 So you don't know what's, you know, different companies have 745 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,280 different success in different places and, and for energy, you 746 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,640 know, what's really worked best is like consistent dividends of 747 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,200 a group of die hard early adopters. 748 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,920 Word of there's apparently word of mouth in a lot of this stuff. 749 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,120 And yeah, we're doing a, we bend over backwards on transparency 750 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,120 and webinars and reporting and it's organic growth. 751 00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:00,080 And I kept on saying, you know, we're one minute away from the 752 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,600 right text or the right tweet from blowing energy sky high. 753 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,000 And I'm convinced that that's actually not how we get there. 754 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,880 We get there from the daily grind, you know, 1 foot in front 755 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,680 of the other and watching this thing snowball as it is. 756 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,120 And that's good enough. And it's really exciting to just 757 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,760 watch that because that's actually pretty dependable that 758 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,640 it's going to grow 57% of years. That's ample. 759 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,600 Yeah, I mean, you were on the Volts podcast. 760 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:28,960 I mean, Dave Roberts is a communist. 761 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,480 How many people like, you know, like joined Energy after that? 762 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,640 That it was a wildly successful podcast because that audience 763 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:40,360 understands my those messages. In years make money. 764 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:44,280 I'm telling you like they call themselves socialist, they want 765 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,520 to tax us all, but I mean they want to make money they want to 766 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,920 make money on solar power. I love Dave, he's so nice. 767 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:50,480 I'm doing. Good. 768 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:52,520 They want to make, they want to make money doing good. 769 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,120 And that's, that's what I love, love about what you're doing, 770 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,480 Mike, is that you're making a real difference for people. 771 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,080 And I just think about those kids that can, you know, read in 772 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,040 the evening and like do their homework and study and have, 773 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,440 will have access to so many more opportunities in their lives 774 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:08,880 because of the work that you're doing. 775 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:10,880 And I think it's it's really powerful. 776 00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:13,440 Thanks so much Jamie. Like we have this debate going 777 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,320 on in our business. We started off we call one point 778 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,920 O and all of our stories were about the impact and how cool 779 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,120 this could be if we gang tackle these problems. 780 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,960 You know, that was the mission. And then we fed said, you know 781 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,840 what, we don't quack like a duck for these wealth investors, the 782 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,320 family offices and the registered investment advisors, 783 00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,920 we have to look a little bit more like the products they're 784 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:34,920 used to seeing. So we call 2 point O and we kind 785 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,880 of put, you know, went out and bought a suit and kind of 786 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,920 figured out how to put together our marketing materials and 787 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,320 things that correspond to normal products. 788 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,320 And then we feel like we've gone too far there. 789 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,840 And I'm getting a lot of communications from our clients 790 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,480 saying like, don't shy away from the impact that you're having, 791 00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,640 like that's it's OK to talk about those things. 792 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,880 And sometimes I feel like I don't want anybody to think that 793 00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:01,440 I'm any less fit financially as a fiduciary because our projects 794 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,920 have impact and I'm not taking wild risks with your money. 795 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:07,880 People's money is important to them. 796 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,760 And so I don't want to give that impression, but damn it that we 797 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,360 do have a huge impact too. Absolutely. 798 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,600 And that's why it's important to talk about all the benefits, 799 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,720 because you don't know what benefit will resonate the most 800 00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:20,440 with a given prospect, right? So. 801 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,720 For for some audiences, they do want to hear about like for 802 00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:25,880 women, right? You know, you said that, that 803 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,160 people in their 40s slightly more men, but like for, for 804 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,440 female investors, I imagine that impact work that could be really 805 00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:34,800 important. I know for me that's that's 806 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,520 powerful and motivating for me as well as that risk management 807 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,480 and diversifying outside of like my standard like 401K, IRA 808 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:44,120 etcetera, etcetera. Yeah. 809 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,120 I mean, it's why basically everybody in the solar energy 810 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:49,040 industry is in the solar energy industry. 811 00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,960 You know, we, we had, we had an interest in doing something 812 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,560 about a problem and it's that impact story resonated with us, 813 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,200 right, so. I mean, I'm trying. 814 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,840 To find that balance. What I've heard is the right 815 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:04,000 uniform is a golf shirt. You know, you go to the golf 816 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,160 course, you're like, hey, let's go play around. 817 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,000 You know, now you've got him like trapped for three hours and 818 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,400 you're like, all right, let's do it. 819 00:42:12,720 --> 00:42:15,800 Although I don't think the the private equity vest pretty early 820 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:16,880 on. I did. 821 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,080 I I always had that Silicon Valley vest. 822 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,200 That was my look. For a long time and then he was 823 00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,760 doing sweaters for a while and now we've moved to the button 824 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,040 down. So he's on just like he's just 825 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,240 wrapping the just like a lot of Plaid button down season. 826 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,240 I mean, I got a lot of women around me trying to make me look 827 00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:37,080 better, so. He's a uniform dresser he likes. 828 00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,080 He likes a copy paste. It works really well for him. 829 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,920 It's just if you open up his closet, it's just a row of 830 00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:44,600 yellow and blue striped Plaid shirts. 831 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:49,080 Exactly, exactly. Well, Mike, it was such a 832 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,120 pleasure to have you on. It has been so good to see what 833 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,240 you've built here and how much good you're doing in the world, 834 00:42:56,240 --> 00:42:59,880 especially at this important moment in time when, frankly, I 835 00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:03,960 think there's a lot of projects that need the love that you're 836 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,240 providing that frankly a lot of folks I think have just not 837 00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:09,680 taken a second look at. And I'm really glad that you're 838 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,040 there to take a second look at them. 839 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,280 Thanks buddy, happy to do it. Thanks for having me. 840 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,040 Energy Empire is supported by S2G Investments. 841 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,760 If you haven't checked out their podcast, I highly recommend it. 842 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,840 They have a great recent episode on the long term effects of the 843 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,520 Iran war and the blockade of the Strait of Hormuz. 844 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:37,320 In the episode, Sanjeev Krishna and Franco Sullivan and Bala 845 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,760 Nagarajan make a compelling case that this disruption could be 846 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,520 the most powerful accelerant for renewable energy in a 847 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,560 generation. And in future episodes they'll 848 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,360 be exploring how those forces are reshaping our food systems 849 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,840 and ocean intelligence. Sound interesting? 850 00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,400 Go find the S2G podcast and start with the global energy. 851 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:07,640 Order has changed, now what? Wow, that was a lot of ground 852 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,440 that we cover with Mike. I know, I mean, we keep having 853 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,840 these guests on that make me be like, oh, I need to write this 854 00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:15,720 down. And then afterwards I need to go 855 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:19,240 look this up. I mean, I again, another guest 856 00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:23,120 that's got me fully convinced that I need to go take action to 857 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:28,200 go, I'm going to go set up an account on energia.com and look 858 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:31,160 into diversifying in this way. Like I mentioned on the episode, 859 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,080 I have some money in the art market and I'm always looking 860 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,160 for like interesting diversification options. 861 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:41,680 So I know that Mike said that his average customer is a male 862 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:46,600 in in their 40s, but I hope more women, You know, I encourage 863 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,800 women to become very active managers of their financial 864 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,920 futures and their portfolios. But this seems like a really 865 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,800 tangible way to diversify your portfolio, earn really solid 866 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:02,320 returns and also make an impact. I mean, I was very moved by the 867 00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:05,280 stories of some of the projects that he's helped to build. 868 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,800 Yeah, it's going to have to be want to come for you, want to 869 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,400 come for your daughter. You're going to have to like, 870 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,160 forget a way to like, you know, get it to 5050. 871 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,520 I was also fascinated by the fact that he's using the JOBS 872 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,560 Act that would passenger Obama. I remember when it passed and it 873 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,880 was like all about how people could, like, do venture capital 874 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:27,680 right at smaller dollar numbers and all this other stuff. 875 00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,320 And I was like, is this really ever going to work? 876 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,240 And then I forgot about it. And then like Mike obviously, 877 00:45:33,240 --> 00:45:35,160 like picked it up out of the ashes. 878 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,520 They created this extraordinary platform like using that. 879 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:41,320 That's amazing. I was really not expecting that 880 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,600 Obama shout out, but that's great to hear that that product 881 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:48,320 works and that, you know, it's, it's created like a powerful new 882 00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:52,240 opportunity for people, average people to invest in markets like 883 00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:54,400 this. The other thing that Mike said 884 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,360 that I was really struck by is that he said that the 885 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:03,080 ethnocentrism that is such a common feature in America really 886 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,800 holds back some investors because they perceive that these 887 00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:12,320 emerging markets are are too high risk and that he's just not 888 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,800 finding that to be true. And it's really encouraging 889 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,000 people to take a harder look. I thought that was a really good 890 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:19,000 point. Oh, he's absolutely right. 891 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:22,920 I mean, when you think about just how valuable these solar 892 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,600 projects are in these countries because they're competing 893 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:29,320 against diesel, right, that you can make much higher returns. 894 00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,080 And just because the returns are high doesn't mean the risks are 895 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:33,960 high. Like, I mean, I invested in 896 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,440 Brazil with Mike back in 2019. We developed a whole bunch of 897 00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,040 projects and then we sold all those projects to Brookfield and 898 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,600 Brookfield is as hard nose as they come. 899 00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,880 So like in general, they look at all the risks and bounce them 900 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,720 carefully, right? So I think that, you know, a lot 901 00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:52,520 of this is people believing that emerging markets are risky 902 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:53,800 because they're emerging markets. 903 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,760 And the other thing I found fascinating was he was using 904 00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,560 using advanced AI tools to help him with some of the diligence 905 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,560 to be able to do some of these smaller projects, which I'd 906 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,160 love. Yeah, absolutely. 907 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,440 I think that's a that's a great efficiency for a company like 908 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,120 this, particularly that is operating in so many very 909 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,880 diverse markets that are maybe sometimes unfamiliar. 910 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,360 Yeah. So, I mean, I think right now, 911 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,920 particularly given the disruption from the Strait of 912 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,800 Hormuz, the supply disruption and all of this new data that we 913 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:25,440 have that shows that electrification really is the 914 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,920 solution that so many of these countries are embracing very, 915 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,760 very quickly, I don't think that these trends will reverse. 916 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:37,400 And so investors, like US investors can, can get a piece 917 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:41,120 of this action and also like help to do good and electrify 918 00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,040 schools in Africa. And I mean, it's, it's really 919 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:45,600 powerful. It's a win, win, win. 920 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,760 And I'm really excited that they're they're getting so much 921 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,560 traction and having so much success with this platform 922 00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,320 after, as he mentioned, kind of others have failed. 923 00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:59,920 Well, if you're inspired to invest in energy, like join me 924 00:47:59,920 --> 00:48:02,440 on the comment section with the YouTube channel. 925 00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:05,160 I think it's going to be fun to see all the comments we have on 926 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,160 the YouTube channel and like talk to people about, you know, 927 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,440 how this strikes them because I do think this is an inspiring 928 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,160 story. And as you suggest, it's so 929 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,480 mixed and complicated because some people view it as crazy 930 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,920 risky, some view it as so impactful, and some view it as 931 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:22,480 both. And, you know, I, I just think 932 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,640 it's going to be fascinating to watch how, how his platform 933 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,600 grows. Absolutely. 934 00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:30,800 And also I just want to say we'll drop a link in the show 935 00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,400 notes if you want to go sign up for an account on the platform 936 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,360 and get involved. And as Jagger mentioned, the 937 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:42,160 minimum investment is only 100 bucks, which is such a great way 938 00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,200 to just dip your toe in and and learn about the tool and see 939 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,280 what it's all about. So I'm doing that. 940 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:49,360 I'm doing that after we after we sign off. 941 00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:51,160 Me too. All right. 942 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:55,960 Well, Next up we've got the Ask Jigger segment sponsored by 943 00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:58,680 Octopus Energy. Super excited to be doing it and 944 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:06,560 hope you enjoy. Welcome to Ask Jigger, a weekly 945 00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,760 segment on Energy Empire where Jigger answers your energy 946 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,680 questions. If you want to submit a 947 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,360 question, the link is in the show notes. 948 00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:18,000 All right, let's get into it. Our first question is from Bobby 949 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,040 Lewis. Bobby says solar plus batteries 950 00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,040 make up an increasingly large share of new capacity. 951 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:28,200 Is this a wave that domestic solar panel recycling can ride? 952 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:32,560 Is crystalline silicon recycling a solved problem with companies 953 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:36,040 already creating a domestic supply of recycled aluminum, 954 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,520 silicon and silver? Or is the window still open for 955 00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,920 new startups? Well, gosh, thanks for that. 956 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,440 Great question. The window is always open for 957 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,440 new, awesome startups. And so even when you've got 958 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,360 established players, it's always open. 959 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:57,240 But we absolutely saw a lot of startups come online in the last 960 00:49:57,240 --> 00:50:00,360 few years to recycle solar panels. 961 00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,160 And several of them got big grants from the Biden 962 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,280 administration. And, you know, the domestic 963 00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:08,120 solar recycling didn't show up, right? 964 00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,920 So they were built because a lot of the 14% efficiency solar 965 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,840 farms, we're going to get re powered with 23% efficiency 966 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,200 solar panels. But people haven't started doing 967 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,080 that yet. So the solar recycling 968 00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:23,560 facilities are ready to go. And people are still trying to 969 00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:25,760 figure out whether they should replace all their old solar 970 00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:29,520 panels with new solar panels. And so we'll see where it goes, 971 00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,640 but it is going to happen. The economics of replacing all 972 00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,480 those super old solar panels with the latest and greatest 973 00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,480 technology are just too amazing to pass up. 974 00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:42,640 And so I think you'll see a lot of recycling happening in the 975 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:44,240 next few years. OK. 976 00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:48,160 Our next question is from Virtuio, just Virtuio, one word 977 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,440 name here in New Mexico. Blackstone has proposed 978 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:54,760 acquiring Public Service Company of New Mexico, our largest 979 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,720 investor owned utility. Some ratepayers worry that 980 00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:00,960 private equity ownership would prioritize financial returns 981 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,560 over public benefit. Others argue the utility needs 982 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,480 significant new capital to modernize the grid and meet 983 00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:11,040 growing demand. 1/3 proposal would have New Mexico's 984 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:15,000 sovereign wealth fund acquire a large minority stake, giving the 985 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,760 public more influence over utility strategy and opening the 986 00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,000 door to reforms such as performance based regulation, 987 00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:25,800 incentive structures tied to outcomes, and greater use of 988 00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:30,200 distributed energy resources. If you were advising New Mexico, 989 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:34,840 this feels like this is like your beauty pageant question 990 00:51:35,080 --> 00:51:38,040 Jigger. If you were advising New Mexico, 991 00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:43,200 which approach would you favor? Well, I mean, let me try not to 992 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,440 step in it. You know, look, I think that 993 00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:49,560 when you think about an electric utility, the main reason why an 994 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,880 electric utility has a monopoly is to be able to raise the money 995 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:55,640 it needs to be able to provide all the upgrades required to 996 00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:59,080 meet economic growth. Public Service of New Mexico is 997 00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,680 a tiny company. And so when you think about all 998 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:05,200 the data centers that are going into New Mexico and all of the 999 00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,200 renewable energy opportunities that they can unlock from 1000 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:12,680 geothermal to nuclear to solar and wind and battery storage, 1001 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,600 they just need a lot more money. And the public markets are not 1002 00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:20,040 willing to give them a lot more money because of the way it's 1003 00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,760 structured. And so the reason why Blackstone 1004 00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:26,680 and BlackRock and JP Morgan's infrastructure fund and others 1005 00:52:26,680 --> 00:52:29,560 are trying to get into this business is not because they're 1006 00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,800 bad. They're just as private sector 1007 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:36,040 as private sector owners of stock in a publicly traded, you 1008 00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:38,840 know, utility company. It's the same owners. 1009 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,960 It's just that that structure allows you to put a lot more 1010 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,440 money into the utility in a much more straightforward fashion. 1011 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,280 So if you look at Elite in Minnesota, they were just sold 1012 00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:51,160 to private equity. That private equity firm has put 1013 00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:56,080 in more money $500 million into Elite in this past 12 months 1014 00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,560 then that company has raised in the last 10 years. 1015 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,640 And so that is what is required from these new partners. 1016 00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:09,080 So I think when you think about the third proposal which is New 1017 00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,160 Mexico sovereign wealth fund acquiring a large minority 1018 00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,920 stake, you can do that that's similar to like NYPA for 1019 00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:21,040 instance in New York or other very large public policy state 1020 00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,560 owned entities. But then you know that debt is 1021 00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,120 basically the state of New York stat, right. 1022 00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:31,120 And so the question is like, if you do that, do you want the 1023 00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:34,920 state of New Mexico to have to put up all the debt to fund all 1024 00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:37,320 of these upgrades? And if you do, great. 1025 00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,320 But I don't think I'm for one over the other. 1026 00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,320 What I'm for is that we are in a place right now where New Mexico 1027 00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:47,400 has a crap load, I mean, technical term of geothermal 1028 00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:49,880 potential. And we need to unlock that 1029 00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,080 potential. And so whoever can bring all 1030 00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,760 that money to to New Mexico to figure out how to unlock that 1031 00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,280 potential is going to be my best friend. 1032 00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,200 Love it. That's a very exciting way to 1033 00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:04,240 look at it, the geothermal potential. 1034 00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:06,160 OK. Our next question comes from 1035 00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:08,720 Nicholas Birkhead. And Nicholas says, when I 1036 00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:12,200 learned that there's still about 190 gigawatts of coal online in 1037 00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,360 the US, it really moved my opinion on natural gas. 1038 00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:19,960 Would you support building 190 gigawatts of new gas to replace 1039 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:23,160 today's coal fleet? If not, what number would you 1040 00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:25,440 support? Well, I think when you think 1041 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,040 about our coal fleet, the vast majority of our coal fleet was 1042 00:54:29,200 --> 00:54:34,480 built before 1985, right? And so it's old. 1043 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:39,200 And so even though the secretary of Energy is, has written all 1044 00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:43,480 these what they call 2O2C letters that are forcing coal 1045 00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,760 plants to stay open, even though the utility companies want to 1046 00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,240 shut them down because they're just too expensive to run, 1047 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:53,200 those, you know, 2O2C letters are actually costing ratepayers 1048 00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:55,560 money. When you look at what's going to 1049 00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:58,320 happen over the next 10 years, the vast majority of those coal 1050 00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:00,880 plants are going to retire because they're just too damn 1051 00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,840 expensive to run, right? It's not emissions, it's not 1052 00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:07,800 climate. It's just they're like 70 to $95 1053 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,960 a MW hour to run. And when you saw that the Trump 1054 00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:13,360 administration tried to force Arizona Public Service to keep 1055 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:17,240 their coal plants open, Arizona Public Services, like we're 1056 00:55:17,240 --> 00:55:19,600 accelerating the decommissioning of these coal plants. 1057 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,880 We're not going to do that. So I think a lot of these are 1058 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,040 going to go out of Commission just because they're old. 1059 00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:29,480 In terms of natural gas, remember we have 600 gigawatts 1060 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,400 of operating natural gas in this country, about 100 gigawatts of 1061 00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,760 that is old. It was built pre 1995. 1062 00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:42,880 And so it uses about 30% more gas to produce the same MW hour 1063 00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:46,600 as a modern turbine does. And so when you take all of the 1064 00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:49,080 gas turbines that the data center companies have announced 1065 00:55:49,080 --> 00:55:53,680 that they're buying for their growth, that's like maybe 50 1066 00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,320 gigawatts worth of new gas. And most of that is behind the 1067 00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,800 meter that's going to run maybe 100 hours a year, 200 hours a 1068 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:03,680 year. Like we're on track to having 1069 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:07,720 less total amount of gas production in this country in 1070 00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:12,720 2035 then we have today, right? And so I feel like this is a 1071 00:56:12,720 --> 00:56:17,320 trick question, right? Our coal plants are retiring and 1072 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,000 our natural gas fleet is getting old. 1073 00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,480 And so it's retiring and we're replacing it mostly with solar, 1074 00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:25,560 wind and battery storage. And hopefully geothermal and 1075 00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:29,520 nuclear come online fast. But, you know, like most of the 1076 00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:31,920 gas plants that are coming online right now are not 1077 00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,240 designed to run 24 by 7. They're designed to run as 1078 00:56:35,240 --> 00:56:38,680 peaker plants when the grid needs them for, you know, a few 1079 00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:41,600 100 hours a year. I'm relieved by that answer, so 1080 00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,800 thank you for that. OK, our final question comes 1081 00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,400 from Reddit from the user Zigzag. 1082 00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:51,360 How likely is it the geothermal becomes a significant source of 1083 00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,800 electricity production in the Western US? 1084 00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,080 And why does development of that resource seem so slow? 1085 00:56:57,720 --> 00:57:02,720 This is a great question and one that is really confusing in 1086 00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:05,720 terms of how power plants are developed. 1087 00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:10,040 So one of the reasons that Fervo is a publicly traded company and 1088 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,520 is doing so well is that the US Department of Energy funded 1089 00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,480 something called Forge. And Forge is a research and 1090 00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:20,880 development site in Utah that, you know, basically took a lot 1091 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,720 of the best practices from the fracking industry and showed 1092 00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:26,680 that it could be used for geothermal. 1093 00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:31,120 And when you think about what happened during that time period 1094 00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:35,760 is that the Department of Energy basically developed hundreds of 1095 00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:40,120 millions of dollars worth of data from what's happening in 1096 00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:44,120 the subsurface of Utah. And Fervo was smart enough to to 1097 00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:46,160 sign up all of those sites in Utah. 1098 00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:50,560 And so they've got a lock on that, that, you know, state if 1099 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:54,280 you were to unlock New Mexico, then someone who would have to 1100 00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:59,560 spend $200 million of speculative money to do drilling 1101 00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:02,400 across the state of New Mexico to create that data set. 1102 00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:06,560 And then you have to spend another $3 billion to build out 1103 00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,960 all of the geothermal projects, right? 1104 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,600 And so a lot of people are having pause around whether they 1105 00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:16,560 want to put up that $200 million to unlock the $3 billion. 1106 00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,880 In the case of Utah, it was mostly the Department of Energy 1107 00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,400 that put that money up. And so one of the things that 1108 00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:26,240 you can imagine might happen in a future Congress is that we 1109 00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,040 actually allocate another $200 million from the US Department 1110 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:34,360 of Energy for New Mexico, for Arizona, for Nevada to unlock 1111 00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,080 those states, right? And there's that new Mountain 1112 00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:39,640 West geothermal initiative that our friends at Constructive are 1113 00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:42,880 running in the western States and was I think it was kicked 1114 00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:45,160 off by Governor Spencer Cox from Utah. 1115 00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:49,600 And so, so that's what makes geothermal slow, is a lot of 1116 00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:53,680 people are really hesitant to put up that $200 million to 1117 00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,880 really unlock all the data around what's happening in the 1118 00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,880 subsurface. And so until we get that 1119 00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:03,320 unlocked either through private sector capital or through the US 1120 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:06,560 Department of Energy, which is my preference, you're going to 1121 00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:10,440 see folks move super slowly. That makes so much sense. 1122 00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:13,000 So I'm just going to tack on my own question here. 1123 00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,200 Do you think there's any chance that we see a mobilization of 1124 00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,120 that funding from DOE under the Trump administration? 1125 00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:23,680 Or will we have to wait for a future administration with 1126 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:27,920 potentially slightly more sane energy policy before we see 1127 00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:29,840 something like that? I think it's quite possible. 1128 00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:34,960 I mean, the Trump administration basically has carved back a lot 1129 00:59:34,960 --> 00:59:36,840 of funding for other priorities, right? 1130 00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:38,600 That was awarded in the Biden administration. 1131 00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:40,360 So they're sitting on a bunch of cash. 1132 00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,360 And my sense is if they went to Capitol Hill and asked for 1133 00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:45,360 permission, which they seem to have a hard time doing. 1134 00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,400 But if they did that, the, you know, U.S. 1135 00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:51,560 House of Representatives to the Senate would say, oh, we don't 1136 00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,000 have to allocate new capital. We just need you to be able to 1137 00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:56,560 reschedule some of this capital that you're that you have 1138 00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,520 sitting around for this purpose that they would say, yeah, go 1139 00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:00,680 for it. This is great, right? 1140 01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:02,960 And so. Part of my frustration with the 1141 01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:06,600 Trump administration is that I think that some of the things 1142 01:00:06,600 --> 01:00:09,640 that they're doing are interesting, but I feel like the 1143 01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:13,960 follow through from the press release just isn't happening in 1144 01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,520 the way that like unlocks private sector capital. 1145 01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,480 And so I I hope that their follow through gets better. 1146 01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:21,160 Great. Thanks, Jigger. 1147 01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:25,040 Thank you and thank you to our friends at Octopus Energy for 1148 01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:29,360 sponsoring this segment. It really is very important that 1149 01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:32,400 we're getting big name supporters like Octopus Energy. 1150 01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,160 So thank you very much. Thanks everyone for listening. 1151 01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,360 As usual, you can find us on Apple podcast, Spotify, and of 1152 01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:42,880 course on YouTube where I think we're getting our most new 1153 01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,440 listeners so and I guess watchers. 1154 01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,920 So thanks everybody for joining us and thank you so much to our 1155 01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:54,160 sponsors AS2G as well as Octopus Energy really can't do the great 1156 01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:55,520 quality work here without you.