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I'm so sorry, Josh, that like I 
had some role to play in getting

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you down this rabbit hole. 
I mean, my God, is this getting 

3
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technical so quickly. 
But I mean, but it is super 

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important. 
I think we could actually really

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increase credulization through 
this bill. 

6
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And listen, it's a it's a 
populist issue. 

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Figuring out affordability is a 
populist issue. 

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And you know, if we can say, 
hey, this is, this is right way 

9
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to do it, then we we can work 
together with them on it for 

10
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sure. 
Hello, my name is Jigar Shah and

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I'm a clean energy entrepreneur.
Hi, I'm Arnab Powell and I'm a 

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clean energy policy enthusiast. 
Wow. 

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And you're going to have to keep
scripting that and trying new 

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things every time. 
Or not. 

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I know I still haven't gotten it
yet. 

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Well, today we are going to have
our good friend Josh Becker on 

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and talk a little bit about. 
You know what he's doing to 

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transform the state of 
California. 

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Sort of exciting times. 
Yeah, I mean, it's state Senator

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Josh Becker for us, So we, we 
got to get that right. 

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Not only is he, I think, you 
know, one of the leaders in this

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country on our issues and this 
space in general. 

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I he's just a, a, a very 
interesting human being. 

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And I think he's got a, a great 
background in life story and I 

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think he's really, you know, 
formed a community in the 

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legislature. 
So I think it'd be interesting 

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to just here where he thinks 
where we're at, because I think 

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in a in a world where we see a 
lot of negativity, I think he's 

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still doing a lot of positive 
things. 

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Well, one thing I was curious 
about though was, I mean, you're

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also following closely. 
The governor's race, right, 

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because. 
I mean it. 

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Feels like a lot has changed, 
right? 

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Like Swalwell had to drop out. 
Now there's like a few other 

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candidates. 
But it still feels like a, you 

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know, like neck and neck race 
with three different people. 

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Yeah, I mean, in some ways the 
race is completely changed, and 

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in other ways, it's the exact 
same as where it's always been, 

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which no one really knows is 
going to be next governor of 

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California. 
It seems like former congressman

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00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,880
and Attorney General Becerra 
and, you know, your friend Tom 

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Steyer seemed to be in the lead 
here. 

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And then there's two Republicans
who might have a chance that 

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normally wouldn't. 
So, you know, I think for the 

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first time in the generation, 
like people have no idea what 

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the governor of California is 
going to be. 

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That's crazy. 
Well, excited to talk to Josh 

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Becker. 
Thanks for joining us as always 

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or not, you're always the person
who brings all the best insights

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to these kind of conversations. 
Yeah, I, I don't know if that's 

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actually true, but I just like 
being on this podcast, so thanks

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for having. 
Energy Empire empire is powered 

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by octopus energy. 
I hear it at every conference. 

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We need more generation, more 
transmission. 

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You're saying we don't? 
We do, but we're ignoring 

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something faster. 
Sitting in people's homes and EV

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is basically a 60 kWh battery 
idle most of the day across the 

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US. 
That's gigawatts we're not 

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using. 
Utilities have pitched demand 

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response for 20 years and it 
still hasn't scaled. 

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Why is this time different? 
Because we're not asking 

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customers to change behaviour, 
we're automating it. 

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The grid treats customers like 
demand that actually distributed

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infrastructure. 
Connect those assets and you can

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shift load overnight at scale. 
So the constraint isn't 

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technology, it's coordination. 
The solutions already deployed, 

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we just need to use it. 
Thanks, Natasha. 

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That was Natasha Crowe, vice 
president of marketing and comms

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for Octopus North America. 
If that's the version of the 

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Grid you want, check them out. 
The link is in the show notes. 

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00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,920
Josh Becker as I live and 
breathe. 

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Welcome to the podcast. 
Good to be here. 

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You and I go so far back. 
I mean, I think we first met 

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probably in the arts. 
Right. 

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00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,080
And then you were a venture. 
Capitalist, you did all sorts of

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cool stuff. 
You served in government, right,

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on an important committee, and 
now you're an elected senator 

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that not only is elected from 
one of the most important parts 

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of California, but you're 
actually, you know, like running

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a lot of the energy policy in 
the state of California. 

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Yeah, I mean, ran for the 
legislature is the best thing 

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I've ever done. 
I mean, I love it here. 

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I love my colleagues getting 
good stuff done and it's a lot 

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of fun. 
Well, let's just jump right into

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it. 
I think as you know, the climate

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work in California continues. 
We have deployed so many 

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batteries, solar, wind power, 
clean energy broadly, and it 

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worked right. 
Wholesale market prices have 

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00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:50,960
never been lower. 
And so we. 

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Have a huge amount of power, and
so much so that we're actually 

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00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:56,600
now sharing all that excess 
power with. 

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Friends in neighboring states 
like Nevada and Arizona and and 

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Oregon. 
But you know, but one of the 

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things that's been stubborn to 
deal with is, you know, the 

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00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,920
wildfire costs and the the 
overbuild on the wire side, 

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which is really driven rates up.
And you've got a whole bunch of 

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ideas on, you know, how to 
really start to control those 

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00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:18,880
costs. 
So we'd love to hear more about 

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your agenda this year. 
Yeah, we got a lot of ideas. 

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We'll see what to see and get 
them passed. 

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But yeah, listen, I you know, 
we've all been at this a long 

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time. 
I remember I worked on EP as 

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first Clean Air Marketplace 
conference in 1992 and walking 

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around and saying, Oh my God, 
I'm sure all this great 

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00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,360
technology will be deployed in 
no time, including these 

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electric vehicles and, and, and 
didn't happen. 

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So I realized, you know, we need
both innovation and markets. 

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I mean, sometimes people promote
and we love when we have friends

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on the right who, who actually 
embrace clean energy, but they, 

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you know, they say, you know, 
innovation over regulation or 

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you know, markets not mandates. 
And the truth is we really need 

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both. 
I mean the success, even though 

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we have a cap and invest system 
here in California, really a lot

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of our gains in electricity came
because we had the renewable 

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portfolio standard. 
We said you have to have 5% of 

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clean energy for utilities, then
15%. 

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Nobody thought we'd get that, 
then 25%, then 50% and on up. 

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So it's been that combination 
here. 

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But what we're seeing now is a 
real concern in California 

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really across the country around
rates. 

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And we've a number of different 
things that we'll, I'm sure 

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we'll talk about, about what we 
need to do. 

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But part of that is to use our 
existing grid more effectively. 

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So you've been a senator for 
some time. 

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I feel like when you were first 
elected, nobody really paid that

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much attention to their 
electricity bill. 

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They didn't really understand 
all the components. 

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It now feels different, right? 
It feels like people have all 

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become investigative journalists
and like actually. 

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Are digging deep into you know 
how where this is coming from 

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and it does feel like folks are 
starting to understand that 

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they're sort of taking on. 
The investment strategy of PG&E,

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right, this isn't just about the
number of kilowatt hours that 

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they're using I. 
Don't know how. 

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How is your constituents like? 
How have they evolved in terms 

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of their thinking about 
electricity? 

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I mean, the reality is, is just,
we've already seen the, the, you

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know, the warming in my area 
when I first moved to 25 years 

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ago, you know, you didn't need 
air conditioning, Nobody had air

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conditioning. 
And then you need, we had one 

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wall unit because it fit, you 
know, my daughter's room face 

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the sun and then another wall 
unit. 

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And then we had a mobile unit 
and cost started to go up. 

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You know, fortune for us. 
We got heat pumps. 

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So we now have air conditioning 
as well as greenhouse gas free 

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heating. 
But you know, people just 

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started paying a lot more 
attention to the bill. 

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So they don't really know all 
the specifics. 

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They just know they're really 
unhappy. 

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So, you know, I think as 
California tries to electrify 

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the rest of the economy, you 
talked a little bit about, you 

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know, agriculture and some of 
these other things. 

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But I think. 
One of the things that we're 

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faced with right now is, as you 
know, gasoline prices have gone 

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through the roof, and folks are 
thinking about, you know, EVs 

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too, right? 
And so it feels like there's 

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unlikely bedfellows that have 
come together right now to 

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actually do big things, right, 
to actually change things in a 

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fundamental way such that we can
reduce electricity bills by 

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2030%. 
You know, like, I think when Tom

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Styer first said that in his 
campaign, maybe in January, we 

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said, oh, we can reduce rates by
25%. 

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I think people are like, he's 
being hyperbolic and now it 

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feels like everyone's talking 
about reducing rates by a lot. 

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That's certainly been the focus,
you know, here in the 

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Legislature for a long time. 
With respect to Tom. 

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We've been working on this for a
long time. 

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I mean, you take a look at the 
bill last year, for example, we 

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said that, you know, a lot of 
the utility spending is, you 

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know, on wildfire. 
We can't really make sure we're 

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getting the bang for the buck 
and aligning what's going to be 

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done at a local level, regional 
level, state level in terms of 

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the spending. 
Utilities are spending $10 

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billion a year on wildfire. 
Great. 

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But are they doing the hard 
stuff, right? 

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Are they doing the stuff they 
should be doing and are we 

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getting the bang for the buck in
doing that? 

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We took $6 billion of their 
spend on wildfire. 

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We said you have to use to do 
that with securitized debt, not 

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with equity. 
So you can't rate base that 

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00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,360
there's a lot of screaming and 
but you know, it did happen. 

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You know, really the big risk 
for utilities is the existential

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risk is, you know, wildfire and 
bankruptcy. 

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And we, you know, started to 
take that off the table with a 

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wildfire fund that we set up. 
So and this year we'll have 

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taken another big look at sort 
of the liability piece of all 

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that. 
So you you put forward Senate 

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Bill nine O 5 and you really try
to go directly at the utility 

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incentives. 
Do you want to talk a little bit

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about the problem you're trying 
to solve with that bill? 

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00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,520
Yeah, we're trying to get, you 
know, lectures raised down 

192
00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:54,160
again. 
And fundamentally, one thing I 

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learned, you know, being in the 
private sector, you know, it's 

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00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,480
all about aligning the 
incentives. 

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00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,920
And fundamentally right now, you
know, the utilities are on 

196
00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,720
bigger profits and exactly have 
bigger bonuses by spending more 

197
00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:05,600
money. 
That's just the way the 

198
00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,600
incentives are are set up and we
do see some good signs out 

199
00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:11,560
there. 
The PG&E is piloting a lot of 

200
00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:14,040
good ideas like flexible 
interconnections and try to work

201
00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,240
smarter. 
But as they say, you know, I 

202
00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,840
hope it's not a strategy. 
We need to make sure that we 

203
00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,680
have the right incentives to 
though, you know, be incentives 

204
00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:25,120
to do the right thing. 
Now part of that is looking at 

205
00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,800
the return on equity. 
There's certain investments like

206
00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,000
undergrounding, for example, 
that shareholders would agree 

207
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,360
to, you know, demand a, a lower 
return on because those are 

208
00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,760
things that again, get to the 
fundamental existential risk of 

209
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,720
utilities versus something like,
you know, buying a new 

210
00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,000
transformer. 
So there's part in there to look

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00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,240
at having a different return on 
equity. 

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00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,360
And you know, there's part 
around getting the, the 

213
00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,960
incentive structure of the VP 
level and higher the utilities 

214
00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,920
to keep rates below inflation 
because that's, you know, that's

215
00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:56,960
at the end of the day the 
measuring stick that we're 

216
00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,320
trying to do. 
So there's a number of pieces in

217
00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,720
there, but really trying to get 
those incentives right. 

218
00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,800
Well, one of the things that you
keyed in on is also around 

219
00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,400
executive compensation, and 
you're really trying to link 

220
00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,160
executive compensation to 
controlling electricity cost. 

221
00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,840
How do you think that would work
and why does it matter? 

222
00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:19,880
Well, instead of rewarding the 
people running utilities for 

223
00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,160
maximizing spending and profits,
we want to create some cost 

224
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,800
discipline. 
And this will say 20% of your 

225
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,320
annual compensation is based on 
keeping rates from rising faster

226
00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,360
than inflation. 
So we're not even talking about 

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00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,080
lowering rates, just keeping 
them from rising in real terms. 

228
00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,400
If you can't do that, if you 
can't, you know, keep raising 

229
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:38,800
rates, then you don't get the 
bonus. 

230
00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,440
So I think it's important 
because, you know, only the 

231
00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,400
people running the utility 
day-to-day and the people make 

232
00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,560
thousands decision what to do 
and what not to do. 

233
00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,920
They're the ones that figure out
how to prioritize, how to be 

234
00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,720
more efficient, how to deliver 
safe, reliable, clean, 

235
00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,680
affordable power within a budget
that doesn't raise rates. 

236
00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:57,280
So, you know, every business in 
the world has to figure out how 

237
00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,480
to operate within a budget of 
what their customers are willing

238
00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:02,760
to pay. 
And we have a monopolistic 

239
00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:04,440
system here. 
And so they don't have some of 

240
00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,360
the same constraints. 
And so this will put some of 

241
00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,680
that discipline back in. 
Now the other thing that you 

242
00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:11,600
focused on is metrics. 
As you know, any good business 

243
00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,360
person knows you manage what you
measure and you've got specific 

244
00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:16,840
things in there that you want 
them to measure. 

245
00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:18,600
We do want to go through that. 
Yeah. 

246
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,000
I look at this really more of 
like a, you know, a dashboard 

247
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,880
sort of school card. 
So you ask them to do a lot of 

248
00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,400
different things. 
So, you know, we don't want to 

249
00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:28,160
focus just one aspect of their 
performance. 

250
00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,000
So this is like a, you know, KPI
that you would see at a company 

251
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,240
for utilities. 
We care about safety, 

252
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:38,400
reliability, cost drivers like 
spending and utilization of 

253
00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,080
assets, customer service like 
how quickly can they handle 

254
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,120
customer requests or to 
interconnect new generators and 

255
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,480
climate targets like what 
percent of electricity is coming

256
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,840
from zero carbon sources. 
So by laying out a set of 

257
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,160
performance metrics, we just see
this is just good government, 

258
00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,320
we're running clarity that these
are the things that that we 

259
00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,400
really care about and we've seen
that. 

260
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,120
Again, just think this or this 
could be very helpful. 

261
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:09,520
You know, I mean there does seem
to be a very large anti utility 

262
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:11,520
sentiment right as bills have 
gone. 

263
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,600
Up and you know, I think for a 
while people thought it was a 

264
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:16,200
California. 
Thing, but now you're seeing 

265
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,320
that with Duke Energy in North 
Carolina, you're seeing that 

266
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,680
with Con Ed in in New York City,
you're seeing that with a lot of

267
00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:23,920
places where people have had 
higher rates. 

268
00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:28,080
And I'm curious, you know, 
whether you think that, you 

269
00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,240
know, these bills are anti 
utility or anti investment. 

270
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,920
Listen, you know the way our 
system is set up, we need health

271
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:38,200
utilities, their their ability 
to raise capital and do all the 

272
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,040
important work that it takes to 
operate their grid while also 

273
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:43,800
reducing the risk of fires 
switching over clean energy, 

274
00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:45,480
supporting low growth to power 
economy. 

275
00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:47,840
You know, they're vital to the 
success. 

276
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,560
And ultimately, you know, their 
borrowing costs do affect the 

277
00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:55,520
costs that get passed on to to 
repairs as well. 

278
00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,600
But, you know, we need to trust 
them as partners in this 

279
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:00,400
mission. 
Again, I think we have some some

280
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,240
good leadership now that we're 
working with, but we don't want 

281
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,440
to constantly worry that they're
trying to bloat their spending, 

282
00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:09,600
say as much as possible to 
maximize profits for investors. 

283
00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,720
So, you know, this is really 
like, OK, let's talk about how 

284
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:15,480
we fix that problem. 
Let's align the incentives and 

285
00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,040
then get back to working 
together to deliver safe, a 

286
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,120
reliable, affordable, a clean 
power. 

287
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,520
So I I think that there is a way
that again, we can work 

288
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,320
constructively but within the 
right framework. 

289
00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,680
Well, you know, back in the 19. 
70s Amber Lovin's talked about 

290
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,000
the soft path, right, which was 
really energy efficiency and, 

291
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,920
and all of that stuff. 
And California frankly, has led 

292
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,680
the way on the soft path, right?
And figuring out how to do more 

293
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,080
with less. 
And it's grown its GDP 

294
00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,040
tremendously without having to 
grow electricity sales as much, 

295
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,600
right? 
I, you know, part of where we're

296
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,040
headed now, as you referenced it
earlier, is grid utilization. 

297
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,440
And you know, and like figuring 
out how we actually use the 

298
00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:58,680
grid. 
We've already paid for more 

299
00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,640
efficiently before we build more
stuff, which we will need to 

300
00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,240
build more stuff. 
But how do we use what we 

301
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:04,600
already paid for more 
efficiently? 

302
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:06,960
Do you think that that's too 
wonky? 

303
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,200
I know we talked. 
About it with Line Vision and 

304
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,320
our good friend Rachelle and you
know, Arnab went through the 

305
00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:15,880
deploy action report that, you 
know, they had put out earlier 

306
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,400
in a previous podcast. 
And so I don't know where do you

307
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,080
put that because, you know, 
energy efficiency obviously is 

308
00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,760
well known, but you know, 
gradualization feels a little 

309
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:25,480
technical. 
Well, the way that. 

310
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:31,120
I've been able to explain it 
that I think resonates with, you

311
00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,920
know, most folks I've talked to 
is to say our grid is like, 

312
00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,920
think about like the Walmart 
parking lot. 

313
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,880
They don't build the Walmart 
parking lot for, you know, 

314
00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:42,400
January 6th, Tuesday at 10:00 
AM. 

315
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,880
They have to build it for the 
Saturday before Christmas and 

316
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,320
therefore, you know, most of the
time there's a lot of excess 

317
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,280
parking and our quids like that 
as well. 

318
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:53,800
The quid is only strained, and 
this was a big realization for 

319
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,360
me. 
In California, the quid is 

320
00:15:56,360 --> 00:16:01,840
strained around 40 hours a year.
40 hours, that's like less than 

321
00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,440
a half a percent right of the 
hours a year. 

322
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,280
Yeah, but we can't fail. 
No governor wants to fail. 

323
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,280
No legislature wants to have 
blackouts. 

324
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,480
And so we have to meet that 
peak. 

325
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,040
And so, you know, traditionally 
we just sort of build, build, 

326
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,200
build to make sure we have that 
peak. 

327
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,200
And that reality is we have 
massive excess capacity most of 

328
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,200
the time. 
And so I think we explained it 

329
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,760
that way, people that kind of 
brings out the light bulbs to 

330
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:28,320
say, Oh yeah, OK, good. 
So we want to do 2 things. 

331
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,760
One and this is, you know, we 
can align with utilities on 

332
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,200
this, bring on beneficial load 
all the electric vehicle load a 

333
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,040
data centers. 
If we do it the right way, which

334
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,440
I'm sure we'll talk about it, 
that can be beneficial load all 

335
00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:40,520
these. 
You know, I have a bill this 

336
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,960
year around industrial. 
You know, there's emissions 

337
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,760
generally 23% of California's 
emissions, it's an error. 

338
00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:48,920
We've made almost 0 progress, 
OK. 

339
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,680
How can we provide the right 
incentives to electrify that of 

340
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:56,120
that food processing plant in 
Fresno and get them on the grid,

341
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,360
give the incentives to at the 
time, especially the time of day

342
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,160
when we've got massive excess 
capacity. 

343
00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,599
So this caused beneficial load 
and then this other piece of 

344
00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,560
other ways of meeting that peak,
right? 

345
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,160
How can we cut it rather than 
just building, building, 

346
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,880
building, how can we shift load 
during that peak and provide all

347
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,560
the all the right incentives, 
reward people for doing the 

348
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,240
right thing. 
All those, you know, batteries 

349
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,119
that people have now installed 
in their homes and ultimately 

350
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,480
all those batteries that the 
Super powerful ones that are in 

351
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:28,160
people's cars, How can we use 
that to shift the peak so that, 

352
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:32,160
you know, again, we don't have 
to worry about about hitting 

353
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,040
that mount. 
So we sort of explain it that 

354
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:35,320
way. 
It seems to be resonating. 

355
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,960
That's great. 
You know, the other thing I'm 

356
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,440
curious about though is you were
talking about metrics before. 

357
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,800
Is this something else that we 
need to collect data on in terms

358
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,560
of gradualization and so that 
there's more transparency around

359
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,200
it? 
Yeah. 

360
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,840
Well, we know today that 
California's generation capacity

361
00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,600
is only used about 45% of 
capacity on average. 

362
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,440
So that's pretty low, but it's 
not the main problem. 

363
00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,800
As we talked about, the spending
problem is really happy mostly 

364
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,240
the distribution level. 
Every time someone needs a panel

365
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,440
upgrade, the utility puts in a 
bigger pole transformer. 

366
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,480
We're upgrading circuits and 
substations all over the state 

367
00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,720
with little regulatory oversight
just to deal with a potential 

368
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,640
problem forecast for some time 
in the next five years. 

369
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:23,120
In some scenario when the 
utility is looking at a place on

370
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:26,080
distribution grid where there 
might be a problem 10 hours a 

371
00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,760
year, but most of the time the 
utilization is less than 50%. 

372
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,280
Probably far cheaper to install 
a battery or make use of some 

373
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:34,840
demand flexibility from 
customers in that area rather 

374
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:36,400
than upgrade that 
infrastructure. 

375
00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:38,360
But that's not really happening 
today. 

376
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,080
And that's what one thing I 
think that we need to change. 

377
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,080
So kind of rate in the the the 
build baby build approach to 

378
00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,280
managing distribution system 
really to understand at a much 

379
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,320
more granule level what the 
utilization is for all these 

380
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,720
individualized circuits. 
And I think we're going to see 

381
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,160
very low numbers. 
You know, Australia, they were 

382
00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:57,440
finding utilization rates less 
than 20%. 

383
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,680
Oh yeah, no, I think in 
California PG&E is estimating 

384
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,960
that their wires are used less 
than 35% of the time. 

385
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:06,440
So it's it's pretty low. 
I totally agree. 

386
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,520
So switching over to my hobby 
horse, you know, you've also 

387
00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,080
instituted or put forward Senate
Bill 913. 

388
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,800
And you know, I've been 
frustrated by the fact that 

389
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:19,600
there's 3000 megawatts of behind
the meter battery storage, 

390
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,680
right? 
You've got the DSGS program, 

391
00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:24,240
you've got people with electric 
vehicles, you have people with 

392
00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,200
smart thermostats, you have 
people with smart appliances. 

393
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,600
And there doesn't seem like 
there's actually any way for 

394
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,560
them to get compensated for 
helping out their neighbor at 

395
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,080
strategic times, particularly 
those 40 hours a year you were 

396
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:38,440
talking about. 
So what's? 

397
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,680
Broken in the current system. 
Yeah. 

398
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,280
Well, first of all, you know, 
you've helped educate me on 

399
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,760
this, you and Arna both over the
last couple years. 

400
00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,760
And I think it's helped us focus
in in this area. 

401
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,320
You know, California's added 17 
gigawatts of battery storage, 

402
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,680
most of that just since I've 
been here in the last six years.

403
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,760
We have two, two and a half 
million EVs, very powerful 

404
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,880
batteries, 2 million heat pumps,
and we can, you know, continue 

405
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,240
to add more distributed capacity
resources each year. 

406
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,120
And that, you know, process is 
largely due to the measural 

407
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:15,160
benefits that people get. 
They're saving money through 

408
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,000
price incentives. 
However, we really need to be 

409
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,080
doing a better job to let them 
shift their behavior when the 

410
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,000
grid needs it. 
So we have mechanisms to do 

411
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:24,800
this. 
We have something called the 

412
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,840
Resource Adequacy program in 
California and with Kaiso's 

413
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,080
reliability markets, the problem
is that the requirements for 

414
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,640
participation in that program 
and RA program and Kaiso's 

415
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,280
market rules have not evolved in
a manner that considers the 

416
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,520
attributes or operational 
characteristics of those 

417
00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,800
resources. 
So for example, the current 

418
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,400
concert does not credit 
electricity that's exported past

419
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,960
the customer's utility meter. 
So RA valuation is currently 

420
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,880
limited to how much electricity 
customers are using a joint 

421
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,880
demand response events. 
So valing the exports past the 

422
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,840
customer's utility meter will 
allow customer owned resources 

423
00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,560
to provide additional value, you
know, beyond that reduction of 

424
00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,200
net. 
Demand I'm so. 

425
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,360
Sorry, Josh, that like I had 
some role to play in getting you

426
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:12,280
down this rabbit hole. 
I mean. 

427
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,360
My God, is this getting 
technical so quickly? 

428
00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:17,440
But I mean, but it is super 
important. 

429
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,840
I think we could actually really
increase gradualization through 

430
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,120
this bill. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

431
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:25,880
I mean the reality is, I mean, 
listen, to simplify it, it's 

432
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,400
just like the market rules are 
not set up. 

433
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,240
And we've been, you know, 
playing around with that for a 

434
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,360
number of years trying to change
this or that. 

435
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,920
And you know, that's the problem
we're trying to solve, solve 

436
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,600
here. 
I mean, you know, they forecast 

437
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:41,440
to give another 4 to 6 gigawatts
of customer set of battery just,

438
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,200
you know, by 20-30 alone. 
And we mentioned, you know, EVs 

439
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,240
are another resource with 
bidirectional charging. 

440
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:51,240
So we have to change the market 
rules to allow those folks to 

441
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:52,880
participate. 
Totally. 

442
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:57,520
So you're saying the market 
rules aren't set up, You know, 

443
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,680
why is that? 
And like, why don't they they 

444
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,480
count today. 
Why are you having to do all 

445
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,120
this? 
Well, I mean, listen, I mean, I 

446
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:09,760
think for good reasons, they've 
set our rates or agencies have 

447
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,920
set requirements for what 
qualifies as resource adequate 

448
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:14,640
adequacy. 
They want to ensure that 

449
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,240
utilities are procuring 
resources that help me local 

450
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,040
system and all the resource out 
O that oversight is important. 

451
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,600
But those same requirements you 
can make it really difficult for

452
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,960
these resources to count in the 
same way because they have 

453
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:31,680
different attributes than 
traditional. 

454
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,280
Well, I don't know. 
I'll interrupt you here, Josh. 

455
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,280
And I'll say because you can't 
say it. 

456
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,960
That the CPUC basically. 
Has gone to war with distributed

457
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,520
generation and didn't really 
like them participating. 

458
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,600
And so even though the Federal 
Energy Regulatory Commission is 

459
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,920
required under third quarter 
2222. 

460
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,760
You know, California independent
system operator to provide this 

461
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,560
benefit. 
They have done everything in 

462
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,920
their power to sabotage how much
people get paid. 

463
00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,960
I thank the Lord that you've 
decided to put this forward to 

464
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,080
try to rectify a wrong here. 
I mean, it's crazy that people 

465
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,880
have spent all this money on 
batteries and can't get 

466
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:08,320
compensated to help their 
neighbor. 

467
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,760
Yeah. 
I mean, listen, fundamentally, I

468
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,600
mean, they, you know, they say 
they're working on this and 

469
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:15,880
they're, you know, they have a 
few pilot programs and things 

470
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,600
like that. 
But yeah, this cuts to the 

471
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,600
chase. 
You know, this requires them to 

472
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,920
consider this atrophy, you know,
allow flexible contract terms 

473
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,400
and program rules and things 
that we need to make these 

474
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,560
resources count. 
So I'm really excited about it. 

475
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,440
I'm hopeful we can get this one 
through this year. 

476
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,360
And you think 913 is what it's 
going to take for these home 

477
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:41,720
batteries to to count the same 
as a big power plant for for RA 

478
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:44,440
or are you it is it like the 
first step? 

479
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,640
And then we have to work with 
the new governor and, you know, 

480
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,800
work on implementation, Like, 
what does this look like? 

481
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,440
Because you're good at passing 
bills. 

482
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,800
But you're one piece of the 
puzzle here, right? 

483
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,640
Yeah. 
I mean, I think that we have to 

484
00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,080
make it easy to sign up. 
And what's great is that, you 

485
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,360
know, under the DSGS program 
kind of proved that, you know, I

486
00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:07,280
had a friend who had a Powerwall
and they received an alert, said

487
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,200
do you want to participate, you 
know, have your battery 

488
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,400
participate in this program. 
And they said yes and clicked a 

489
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:14,880
button. 
That was it. 

490
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,640
I mean, it should be that easy 
to participate. 

491
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,960
So, you know, again, it's about 
finding the incentive, you know,

492
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,080
changing the market rules so 
they're they're fair in this 

493
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,680
way, but then also making it 
easy for people to sign up. 

494
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:28,360
Well, and the reason it's so 
important? 

495
00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:32,280
As you and I have talked about 
is it's Looney Tunes to me that 

496
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:34,520
all of these companies are based
in your district. 

497
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,720
They're all based in California,
right? 

498
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,560
They all got their start in 
California. 

499
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,960
They've got their headquarters 
in California and their biggest 

500
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,000
markets are in Massachusetts and
Texas. 

501
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,320
And so I really. 
Like the fact that you're 

502
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,040
stitching all of this together 
in a way such that these 

503
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,200
companies which have gotten 
their venture capital in 

504
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,920
California can actually start to
deploy their solutions in 

505
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,320
California. 
And so, I mean, I think it's, I 

506
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,040
think it's. 
Glorious work you're doing here 

507
00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:59,240
with SB-913. 
Yeah, that's. 

508
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:00,800
Right. 
And we had a big win in 

509
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,600
Virginia, as you guys know. 
You guys were a big part of 

510
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,320
that. 
You know, Maryland and 

511
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,200
California should be leading. 
That's actually one of my big 

512
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,920
things is to actually, you know,
especially in a time of the 

513
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,680
headwinds from the federal 
administration with absolutely 

514
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,920
backward policies on clean 
energy, we need to get the 

515
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,480
leading edge climate states to 
work together to share ideas. 

516
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:26,760
So I really enjoy that when I'm 
reaching out to other state 

517
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,880
legislators in leading edge 
climate state to to share ideas.

518
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,400
And again, this is 1 where 
Virginia led and that's great. 

519
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,360
And you know, you got to get 
California gear too. 

520
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,640
And for the record, you know, 
Virginia got the first bill 

521
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,360
signed by the governor, but you,
you had a bill last year that 

522
00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:44,800
would have done some of the data
elements of that. 

523
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,840
So, so you do get some credit 
for going first even if we 

524
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,480
didn't get it signed first, I'll
take it. 

525
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,040
I think that's exactly right. 
One of the things I'm also 

526
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,840
curious about is it I, it feels 
like there's a bunch of 

527
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,560
batteries going in, as you 
suggested between now and 2030 

528
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,400
because of the NEM 3 point O 
fight, right? 

529
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,480
Where basically all net metered 
systems now need to have 

530
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,520
batteries. 
You've got a bunch of electric 

531
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,680
vehicle manufacturers who are 
suggesting that they're going to

532
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,240
have vehicle to grid technology 
added to all of their cars. 

533
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,880
Rivian just announced that, 
right, Because they want to be 

534
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,320
able to help you run your house 
off your car if you know you're 

535
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,640
an emergency situation. 
You've got Reem and AO Smith 

536
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,720
saying that all new water 
heaters that they ship are going

537
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,000
to be smart water heaters, 
right? 

538
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,960
You got Carrier coming out 
saying they've got all these 

539
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,720
heat pumps now with a battery 
associated with it. 

540
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:34,920
I mean, it's exciting times, 
right? 

541
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,520
But one of the things that I 
find fascinating is that no one 

542
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,000
seems to be including the the 
community choice aggregators, 

543
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,760
right? 
I mean, how do you find we have 

544
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,600
all these different people in 
California, right? 

545
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,720
And you have the utilities, 
they're sort of responsible for 

546
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,200
the wires. 
That's where the savings are. 

547
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,960
But you got the community choice
aggregators, which are host, 

548
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:55,840
they're supposed to be prosumer,
right? 

549
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,760
They're supposed to be the ones 
who the customer likes, they get

550
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,000
their bill from them, etcetera. 
Yeah. 

551
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,120
I mean, how do you bring it all 
together to to get Californians 

552
00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:07,920
to realize that this is really a
revolution that they should be? 

553
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,320
A part of. 
Yeah, well, the community, it's 

554
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:13,400
a good point. 
The community choice 

555
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:14,800
aggregators, like they're 
made-up. 

556
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,720
Their board is all local 
electeds and that should be 

557
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,080
their strength, right? 
They're closer to the ground, so

558
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:23,360
to speak. 
And I've actually said to my 

559
00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:26,080
team, you know, every newsletter
I send out, I have 100,000 

560
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,840
people that open my newsletter, 
you know, anytime that if they 

561
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,200
have a promotion or an incentive
or, you know, a program for 

562
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,680
people to sign up to, you know, 
sign up their batteries, 

563
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:35,760
whatever it is. 
Yeah. 

564
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,440
That we help spread that word 
too. 

565
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,920
So yeah, I think it's a good 
point. 

566
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,640
We have to remember all this 
stuff is still kind of 

567
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:48,320
relatively new where people hand
batteries in their homes at all,

568
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:52,200
let alone batteries that could 
be then used to help and support

569
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,400
the grid and knit together to 
form critical infrastructure. 

570
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,840
So you don't want to be too hard
on ourselves, right? 

571
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,200
This is all still, you know, 
relatively new stuff. 

572
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,640
But I think, you know, we, we do
have that opportunity. 

573
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,000
This is simplifying the utility 
bill will also be helpful. 

574
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,200
It's super confusing right now, 
you know, for my wife and I, 

575
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,240
when we try to go through it, we
have the climate credit that 

576
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,280
comes from our cap and invest 
system. 

577
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,880
We took some steps this year to 
both enlarge that and have it go

578
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,960
the times of the year when 
people really need that. 

579
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:26,280
So, and hopefully be more 
prominent. 

580
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,000
So they actually sort of feel 
that as well. 

581
00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:30,160
So I think there's a, a chance 
here. 

582
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,600
We've stopped rates, you know, 
largely from from increasing. 

583
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,960
And again, you know, kudos to 
some of the utilities who are 

584
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,400
doing some good work on that 
area too. 

585
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,280
But now we need to start 
actually lowering rates. 

586
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,560
And, and then we that's, you 
know, how, how ultimately that 

587
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,240
that trust has won. 
But I think that education piece

588
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,960
around this whole new area is 
really important because it's 

589
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:55,520
most people still don't quite 
grok it just yet. 

590
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:57,880
Yeah. 
And look, I, I think we should 

591
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,720
look at this positively and I 
think we should look like, look 

592
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,640
at like, what does success look 
like here? 

593
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,360
I think you know, and we've 
talked so much in the weeds 

594
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,040
about everything, but I do want 
to take a little bit of a step 

595
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,120
back. 
You know, you're, you know, one 

596
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,280
of the things I think you know 
is makes it easy to work with 

597
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,680
you is you know, you're, you're 
you're pro climate, you're 

598
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,480
you're pro consumer, you're pro 
technology. 

599
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,600
All those sort of, I think 
positions are put you in a good 

600
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,600
place to help bring down costs 
for folks. 

601
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,480
But bringing down costs isn't 
always just a, a partisan issue.

602
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:33,640
I think there's plenty of 
Republicans that want to bring 

603
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,320
down costs. 
And, you know, while you always 

604
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,480
stick to your values, like you 
were always open with working 

605
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,960
with progressives, moderates, 
Republicans, if it's in the name

606
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,120
of the things you, you believe 
in and care about. 

607
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,720
And, and my longer winded 
question here is it may not 

608
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,720
matter in California, but like, 
can we get Republicans to 

609
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,040
support us on this stuff? 
Because it's pretty kitchen 

610
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,480
table. 
It's pretty common sense. 

611
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,040
Use more of your grid, bring 
down costs. 

612
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,640
Like like where do you think 
they stand on this? 

613
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,960
Yeah, I think, I think it got 
some. 

614
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,200
I have to go back. 
I think, you know, certainly we 

615
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,840
did the western grid. 
We got Republican votes for 

616
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,560
that. 
Certainly we did get Republican 

617
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,120
votes for, for for 913. 
So I think, you know, treated in

618
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,760
that way as like, hey, this is a
way to save people money. 

619
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,560
I mean, listen, it's a it's a 
populist issue, right? 

620
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,920
How you know, figuring out 
affordability is a populist 

621
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,000
issue. 
And you know, if we can say, 

622
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,200
hey, this is this is right way 
to do it, then we we can work 

623
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:33,520
together with them on it for 
sure. 

624
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,960
OK, so if it's 2030 and you 
know, we now have what, less 

625
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,400
than five years to 2030, the 
next four years, right? 

626
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,400
You know, like what, what would 
you hope the average customers 

627
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,040
electricity bill looks like? 
What's different about how they 

628
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,880
deal and interact with the grid 
then how they currently do? 

629
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,720
Well, this I think fundamentally
the success is when you know, 

630
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,960
people want that EV because 
they're going to save money. 

631
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,920
They want that heat pump not 
only because it's great for the 

632
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:06,960
environment, but because it's 
going to save money. 

633
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,080
And honestly, really, you know, 
back to a day when, you know, 

634
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,920
people aren't even thinking 
about their utility bill that 

635
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,520
much, it won't be one of the the
top issues on their mind because

636
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,320
they'll be both seeing the 
benefits of all these new 

637
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,640
technologies, get the air 
conditioning with their heat 

638
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,880
pub, all the advantages of it, 
EV, all the maintenance 

639
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,960
advantages, all that while also 
saying, yeah, this is a really 

640
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:35,040
good way to save, to save money.
So I mean, I think that's the 

641
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,120
vision. 
I mean, the great thing, you 

642
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,400
know, I was really proud to 
represent our state and our 

643
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,640
country at the climate change 
talks in in Belem in Brazil. 

644
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,520
And, you know, I got to talk 
about how for, you know, 

645
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,280
Californians, it's it's, you 
know, that clean energy's not 

646
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,600
just a moral but a economic 
imperative. 

647
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,080
And we've seen the benefits from
conservation. 

648
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,840
We saw those benefits early on 
as a state. 

649
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,200
And we can be a leader in in 
these ways as well. 

650
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,240
And you know, what's fun about 
it, As you said, the 

651
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,480
technologies are here, a lot of 
the ideas are here. 

652
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,600
It just kind of putting it all 
together now into place. 

653
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,560
I think we know what we need to 
do. 

654
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,560
And I'm just excited. 
We got some great colleagues. 

655
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,520
We're at peak wonkiness here at 
the in the state Senate. 

656
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:21,920
We've got a lot of really smart 
people. 

657
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,520
My colleague Henry Stern, who I 
met doing clean tech for Obama 

658
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,240
years ago, my colleague been out
and you know, across the board, 

659
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,560
our Pro Tem has been a wonderful
leader on these issues. 

660
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,200
So I think we've got the right 
people. 

661
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,840
The other thing we just last 
thing we just hadn't talked 

662
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,520
about, tell me if you want to 
talk about is fixing that 

663
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,480
wildfire liability problems. 
We said a lot of the things is 

664
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,600
stuff we stuck into rates. 
All of our public interest 

665
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,760
programs are care and fair 
programs where low income 

666
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,120
customers get discounts. 
That's stuck in a rate. 

667
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,040
So that's a three $4 billion 
program. 

668
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,440
And so one of the things that 
that we didn't mention that nine

669
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,160
O 5 does is it creates what we 
call a power fund and that's 

670
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,320
really the vehicle to take those
costs out of rates and into the 

671
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,640
general fund. 
Now we have to wait till there's

672
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:08,680
actually money for the 
legislature to appropriate it, 

673
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,520
but we're going to get that 
structure set up. 

674
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,440
So if open AI goes public and 
Throbic goes public, if, if the 

675
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:19,760
budgets are really high next 
year, we can power up that power

676
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,560
fund and we can take those 
things out of rates. 

677
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:27,120
Otherwise it's a really 
regressive way to pay for those 

678
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:28,800
programs. 
They should they benefit the 

679
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:30,880
whole state, the wildfire 
prevention benefits the whole 

680
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,400
state. 
We should pay that out of the 

681
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,280
general fund, not out of rates. 
And that's, that would be really

682
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,920
helpful as well. 
So if we're if we could do that 

683
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,440
as well as the pieces we're 
talking about using the existing

684
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,920
grid more effectively, then I 
really think we can lower rates 

685
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,560
substantially while keeping our,
you know, really world leading 

686
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,360
progress in in clean energy 
going. 

687
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:54,640
So I'm super excited. 
I'm very optimistic. 

688
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:59,040
I think the the takeaways you 
would like to make electricity 

689
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:00,960
bills boring and cheap again, 
right? 

690
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:02,800
Yeah. 
I mean, that's it. 

691
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,440
We, when people like, don't 
think about it honestly, then, 

692
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,320
then we've won. 
Well, you know, I mean, you are 

693
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,719
going to. 
Have SpaceX go public this year 

694
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,320
so maybe they'll fund it. 
Yeah. 

695
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,560
I mean, we've lost a couple of 
those taxpayers, but they're 

696
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,639
actually 8000. 
I just heard the other day is 

697
00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:22,840
8000 SpaceX employees in in 
California. 

698
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,400
So that'll also be good for our 
general fund. 

699
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,920
You know, we're very income tax 
dependent states, so we could 

700
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,800
have some good budgets ahead. 
You know, the other thing for me

701
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,280
honestly is that I just, you 
know, one of the things that I 

702
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:40,199
find fascinating is 2025 was the
year that, you know, President 

703
00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:43,520
Trump really politicized clean 
energy, right? 

704
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:47,320
And I think before then it was 
largely A bipartisan issue, 

705
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:48,639
right? 
It was really deep politicized. 

706
00:34:48,639 --> 00:34:51,719
I mean, you've got a lot of wind
power from North Dakota all the 

707
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:53,320
way down to the Texas Panhandle,
right? 

708
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,080
You've got a lot of solar power 
in Texas and lots of other 

709
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,080
places. 
Folks are going solar and rural 

710
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,600
America now just because, you 
know, it's a lot cheaper than 

711
00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,760
what they're of getting other 
things from. 

712
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,760
So a lot of what I'm looking for
out of, you know, your bills, 

713
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,280
but also all of this momentum 
around the country is. 

714
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,320
Really getting people to feel 
fully empowered by this 

715
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:17,920
technology, right? 
Because I I do feel like a lot 

716
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,160
of people believe that electric 
utility bills are a. 

717
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,600
Tax, right, A tax. 
It just comes in the mail. 

718
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:27,160
They have nothing that they can 
do to control it whatsoever. 

719
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,320
And I think. 
A lot of what we're doing is in 

720
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,920
we're empowering you, right We 
actually. 

721
00:35:32,240 --> 00:35:35,040
Are going to give you the. 
Keys to be able to control your 

722
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,400
future, and I think that's going
to be an exciting time. 

723
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:39,920
Yeah, I mean, listen, we've 
seen, you know, there was 

724
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:41,960
certain initial wave of this and
I was there for that. 

725
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:46,480
I was a seed investor in O Power
basically just, you know, kind 

726
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,960
of turn the the mark, the 
utility bill into marketing 

727
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,000
document for energy efficiency 
compared people to their 

728
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,560
neighbors said, hey, here's how 
much you could save if you're 

729
00:35:54,560 --> 00:35:56,680
doing just what your most 
efficient neighbors were doing. 

730
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,120
And that was great and that, you
know that for a while that 

731
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,520
worked and showed you could 
lower bills, you know, 2 to 4% 

732
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,600
just by just by doing that. 
And then there's another wave of

733
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,560
devices where we really try to 
like, say, Hey, we're going to 

734
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,960
like empower people to 
understand, you know, exactly 

735
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,280
how much their, you know, stove 
is, is, is using, you know, 

736
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:19,400
versus this other appliance and 
this other appliance. 

737
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,920
And the reality is it was still 
too complicated and people just 

738
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,640
didn't care enough. 
But now, and we invested 

739
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,960
billions of smart meters, but 
they just weren't really that 

740
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,000
smart ultimately. 
But now we're seeing that next 

741
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,080
wave of things where you could 
just prioritize things in your 

742
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:32,640
home. 
And that way you don't have to 

743
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,080
spend money on that costly 
electricity panel upgrade, But 

744
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:38,440
there's no need to do it because
you could say, Hey, I don't need

745
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:43,360
my car charging and my hot water
heater going and my, you know, 

746
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,160
induction cook top all at the 
same time, right? 

747
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:51,040
I can prioritize those. 
So you know, there is AAI think 

748
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,440
this wave will be sort of 
different than that previous 

749
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,480
wave. 
So I think I get the last 

750
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,840
question here, but I think I 
don't have to make it a two-part

751
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,360
question for you. 
The the first part, though, I 

752
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,680
want to I want to click back to 
to a point that you you talked 

753
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:08,920
about your colleagues. 
I think one of the things that 

754
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,800
frustrates, I think people with 
politicians is they feel like 

755
00:37:13,240 --> 00:37:15,160
their problems aren't being 
addressed. 

756
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,120
And I think Jigger and I have 
worked so closely in the 

757
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,360
legislature with so many of your
colleagues, not just the Senate 

758
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,280
ones, but Assemblywoman Petrie 
Norris and Irwin and 

759
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,960
Assemblywoman Boehner. 
And there's just so many people 

760
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,840
who get this problem and they 
are actually trying to fix it. 

761
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,480
And in a world where it's easy 
to be so cynical about 

762
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,080
politicians, especially with the
things you see coming out of 

763
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:44,480
Washington, DC, like I, I think 
like it's just it's nice to know

764
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,240
that people are actually trying 
to make it better. 

765
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,480
So I applaud you and all your 
colleagues for that. 

766
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,320
That's not the question. 
Of course. 

767
00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,960
The two-part question is, you 
know, so like what? 

768
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:02,000
And we talked about this a 
little bit, but if we get this, 

769
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:05,000
you know, next phase of the 
energy transition, right? 

770
00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:08,760
You know, and we, the last phase
was getting us to renewables, 

771
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,480
reducing emissions. 
Like like what does the next 

772
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,280
phase of success look like? 
First of all, I want to 

773
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,640
acknowledge, you know, even in, 
in like the, the height of the, 

774
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,800
the success, the IRA, you would 
come hang out in California, 

775
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:21,840
right? 
And really get to know the 

776
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:24,160
legislatures. 
And as you said, we've like 

777
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:28,560
amazing people, like really 
terrific wonky people in the 

778
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,400
depth and in the details working
to figure all this out. 

779
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,520
And you, you've seen that, 
acknowledge that. 

780
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,800
And I appreciate, you know, and 
I think, you know, nationally 

781
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:39,560
now folks are focusing on state 
legislators and I have 

782
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:42,400
incredible colleagues in state 
legislators across state 

783
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,320
legislators across the country. 
And that's really where the 

784
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,160
action is, right? 
We've got the ability to do 

785
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,480
this. 
And so ultimately, you know, we 

786
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,200
focus on greenhouse gas 
reductions, right? 

787
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,400
So when I started, we had 405 
million metric tons and we got 

788
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,000
to get to 0. 
So that's ultimately my metric. 

789
00:38:57,000 --> 00:39:02,600
We're down about 385 right now. 
And, and you know, you know, 

790
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,400
our, our ambitious plan, you 
know, the, the scoping plan says

791
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,560
we got to get to 75,000,000 
metric tons by 2045. 

792
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,200
And then we need Cdr, which I've
also spent a lot of time on 

793
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,600
carbon dioxide removal to get to
the rest. 

794
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,240
So those are the ultimate 
metrics, you know, in this 

795
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:18,080
space. 
But I think getting there, you 

796
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,160
know, when the the first part is
electrify everything, right? 

797
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,200
We've adopted that mantra. 
We got to electrify everything 

798
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,480
and we can't electrify 
everything if rates are really 

799
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,600
high. 
So that's where we're focused on

800
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,440
lowering the rates, electrify 
everything while we continue to 

801
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,760
build out that clean energy 
generation, you know, work on 

802
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,800
permitting And I, you know, 
that's where I'm alive with 

803
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,600
industry. 
You know, we have to streamline 

804
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,240
permitting and sighting and get 
stuff done faster. 

805
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,480
You know, we did the largest 
solar and storage project in the

806
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,280
world, the Darden project in 
under a year with the with the 

807
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,440
new opt in, you know, 2O5 
permitting process that we have.

808
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,160
So, you know, we, we have to do 
all those things. 

809
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,680
But really let's try everything 
when we get the renewable and 

810
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:00,160
then focus on some of these hard
to decarbonize industries. 

811
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,480
That's why I'm focused on 
industrial emissions. 

812
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:06,800
It's not, you know, the sexiest 
thing, but we have to find ways 

813
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,240
those are hard to decarbonize 
industries. 

814
00:40:08,240 --> 00:40:12,120
The very first bill I passed in 
the state legislature, working 

815
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,280
with Ken Branson, my own old 
classmate. 

816
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,400
He met with this men industry 
and spent a lot of time with 

817
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,760
them and they said, yeah, we 
want to do this. 

818
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,760
And we set a plan. 
We said passed a bill to for 40%

819
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,920
reduction by 20-30 emissions and
and 100% by 2045. 

820
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,800
And at the time is the only 
piece of the California economy 

821
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,680
that had a net zero target on it
after our bill was passed. 

822
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:41,760
And so the way I look at it, my 
team and Erica, Isabel, we we 

823
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,800
look and focus on what are the 
major source of admissions. 

824
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:46,280
Of course, transportation is 
50%. 

825
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,840
So we spend a lot of time on 
this podcast talking about it. 

826
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,400
But then you know, buildings and
the 15%, the grid another 15%, 

827
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:58,000
industrial agriculture 7%. 
So we have to tackle each piece 

828
00:40:58,000 --> 00:40:59,480
of that. 
And so I bills in all those 

829
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,960
areas. 
Well, the thing that makes me so

830
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:06,760
inspired by what you're doing, 
Josh, is that you're anchored in

831
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:11,040
the science, but you like a good
rock concert like anybody else 

832
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,840
does. 
And, and we're in a place right 

833
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,760
now where we're making this fun,
right? 

834
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,600
Like we really are. 
Like, I just think when you 

835
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,040
think about how many 
entrepreneurs are coming up with

836
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:23,360
cool stuff, they're raising $100
million rounds. 

837
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,160
They're going to go public this 
year right there. 

838
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:29,360
But they're also changing the 
face of the electric utility. 

839
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,800
Right we were. 
Dead set against any of this 

840
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,000
stuff you know, just two years 
ago like everybody was just like

841
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,640
Nope, we're going to build new 
generation, you know, upgrade 

842
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,040
transmission, upgrade 
distribution, right Today you 

843
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,160
got the unions that are fully 
for distributed generation and 

844
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,440
recognize that having a two way 
transactive grid where people 

845
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,080
basically build micro grids in 
their house and help their 

846
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,120
neighbors with those micro grids
is the. 

847
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:55,760
Future. 
That's a big. 

848
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,720
Change in two years and I've 
talked to legislators around the

849
00:41:58,720 --> 00:42:02,280
country and they are inspired by
your work and they're inspired 

850
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,200
by the work that you guys 
continue to do. 

851
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,960
And so thank you. 
Thank you for all the work that 

852
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,040
you're doing and all the work 
you're continuing to, you know, 

853
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,920
push through. 
Yeah, well, it's fun, you know, 

854
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,760
but in the past, I worked as, 
you know, you know, I was doing 

855
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,080
startups and with my 
professional life and I do 

856
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:21,680
politics, you know, on the side 
and then, you know, with clean 

857
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,120
energy. 
And we did when we started with 

858
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,040
clean tech for Obama, You 
realize you can combine those 

859
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,120
passions, right? 
We can make the world a better 

860
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,640
place and also, you know, create
the conditions for this industry

861
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,720
to rise. 
And that's been super fun. 

862
00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:35,600
And, you know, this is a great 
place to do it. 

863
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,120
And I just appreciate that You 
care about California. 

864
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,480
You know you want you know, you 
know that California has to work

865
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,040
right. 
I always say like, you know, we.

866
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,520
It does. 
You can't be that, hey, we tried

867
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:48,600
hard and did some good stuff 
and, you know, but ultimately 

868
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,720
didn't succeed. 
But California has to work as a 

869
00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:52,240
model. 
And I appreciate your 

870
00:42:52,240 --> 00:42:54,880
commitment, both of yours. 
And, you know, organizations 

871
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:58,760
like deploy, getting people 
involved in the process and in 

872
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,640
state legislatures, that can 
have a huge impact. 

873
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,960
And you know, it's fun, as you 
said. 

874
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,960
Well, have a fantastic 
legislative session, my friend. 

875
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:09,440
OK. 
We'll talk to you guys again. 

876
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:17,280
Sounds good. 
Energy Empire is supported by 

877
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,320
S2G Investments. 
If you haven't checked out their

878
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,440
podcast, I highly recommend it. 
They have a. 

879
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,360
Great recent episode on the long
term effects of the Iran war and

880
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,160
the blockade of the Strait of 
Hormuz. 

881
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,960
In the episode, Sanjeev Krishna 
and Frank O'Sullivan and Bala 

882
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:38,400
Nagarajan make a compelling case
that this disruption could be 

883
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,160
the most powerful accelerant for
renewable energy in a 

884
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,200
generation. 
And in future episodes, they'll 

885
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,000
be exploring how those forces 
are reshaping our food systems 

886
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,480
and ocean intelligence. 
Sound interesting? 

887
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:55,040
Go find the S2G podcast and 
start with The global energy 

888
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,200
order has changed. 
Now what? 

889
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:04,360
Well. 
That didn't disappoint. 

890
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:08,520
Josh Becker always brings it, 
and it feels like he's got a 

891
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,160
pretty full agenda. 
California. 

892
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,520
Yeah, I mean, someone's got to 
have a full agenda somewhere, 

893
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,000
and I'm glad our friend is the 
one who's carrying the the 

894
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,240
mantle here. 
One of the things though, that I

895
00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:22,160
found fascinating and we heard 
about this when we had did our 

896
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:26,160
conference in Sacramento, was 
that, you know, pH and E is 

897
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:28,280
really laying it out for people,
right? 

898
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,880
They're saying if you let us 
build data centers and you do it

899
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:37,080
by, you know, focusing on 
gradualization, right, then we 

900
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,920
can get bills down by 20% for 
everybody because we can spread 

901
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,200
the cost of wildfires and the 
cost of the wires that we 

902
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,360
already paid for. 
Across a much. 

903
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:48,960
Larger set of kilowatt hours. 
And so I thought that was 

904
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,800
fascinating. 
And I'm, you know, like it feels

905
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,160
very esoteric and in the weeds. 
And so I wonder, you know, 

906
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,680
whether you think, you know, we 
can really get. 

907
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,480
The level of mindshare around, 
you know, pulling that off. 

908
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:07,320
Look, we've met with PG&E 
multiple Times Now and they've 

909
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,200
they've gone out of their way to
sort of tell us what they're 

910
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:11,960
doing. 
And look, I believe them. 

911
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,600
I believe that they have a 
pathway to reduce rates. 

912
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,320
Will they actually do it is what
remains to be seen. 

913
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,600
I believe that they are trying. 
I think the other thing that 

914
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,760
I've told them directly, which 
I'll tell everyone here, is if 

915
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,880
they go to the legislature and 
to the state and say, hey, we're

916
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,520
already doing this, we're going 
to try, no one's going to 

917
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,640
believe them. 
So they have a technical problem

918
00:45:35,720 --> 00:45:38,040
and they have a human problem 
that they have to deal with. 

919
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:40,040
And a lot of. 
This is going to come down to 

920
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:43,720
who wins the primary, I think 
within the governor's race, 

921
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:44,680
right? 
Because some of those 

922
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:49,360
candidates, I think are going to
be a lot more aligned, I think 

923
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,920
with that vision that PG E is 
putting forward, which frankly, 

924
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,440
I'm aligned with. 
I mean, I, I mean, I, I'm not 

925
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,080
sure that we're going to build 
1500 MW data centers in 

926
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:01,800
California that require, you 
know, 800 MW behind the meter 

927
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:04,320
natural gas. 
To get built, but it does. 

928
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,720
Feel like all of those 3000 
megawatts worth of batteries 

929
00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:13,440
that are registered into the 
DSGS, you know, program that you

930
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,040
know, could be used in a virtual
power plant could be used to 

931
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:18,920
unlock a bunch of data center 
capacity. 

932
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,800
Yeah. 
I think, look, a lot of this has

933
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,720
to be PG&E laying out what their
intentions are and the other 

934
00:46:25,720 --> 00:46:29,520
utilities in California. 
I think them giving on some 

935
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,520
things of understanding that the
status quo and how we've sort of

936
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,440
had this model for years is no 
longer working and there needs 

937
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,240
to be a new model which is could
be good for everyone. 

938
00:46:40,240 --> 00:46:44,680
Part of that is this idea that 
they'll interconnect folks and 

939
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,760
not serve them every minute of 
every hour of every day and ask 

940
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,960
them require them to bring. 
Their well they don't now. 

941
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,360
I mean with all the frequent 
public safety shut offs, I mean 

942
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,960
folks are out of power for 
several days a year. 

943
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,520
Yeah. 
Well, in this case, it would be 

944
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,720
upfront understood with these, 
you know, larger loads. 

945
00:47:01,720 --> 00:47:05,520
But part of it is them agreeing 
to change the way that they plan

946
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,480
their resources, right? 
Like what we've been talking 

947
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,560
about from the beginning is like
they need to be like, hey, look 

948
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,760
like we aren't just planning to,
you know, meet demand at all 

949
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:17,800
times. 
We aren't planning to only for 

950
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,920
reliability. 
We're planning for reliability 

951
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,600
and efficiency and that's going 
to totally change the way his 

952
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,120
utilities work. 
And I think what what we've been

953
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,520
open to PG&E about is that you 
guys need to get on board with 

954
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,400
that. 
And the same goes with Edison 

955
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,760
and San Diego Gas and Electric 
and the other utilities. 

956
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:35,880
And that'll be the first step to
actually bringing down costs for

957
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:37,960
folks. 
Well, the one thing I think that

958
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,640
is confusing for everybody, 
which I think we have to keep 

959
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,440
reminding everybody about, is 
that California generation costs

960
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,360
have never been lower. 
I mean, the fact that we've 

961
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,200
built so much solar and wind 
power has actually reduced the 

962
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:51,920
cost of generation in 
California. 

963
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,000
I mean, you have negative prices
a lot, right? 

964
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,720
And then we built batteries. 
And so the duck curve is gone, 

965
00:47:56,720 --> 00:47:58,080
right? 
Like it doesn't look like a duck

966
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,080
anymore. 
It looks like it's flattening 

967
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:01,960
out, right, with all that 
battery capacity. 

968
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,800
And so this really is a wildfire
problem, right, which is climate

969
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,160
related and a wires problem, 
right? 

970
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,320
We got to get a lot more out of 
the grid that we've already paid

971
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:11,640
for. 
Yeah. 

972
00:48:11,720 --> 00:48:14,520
And look, we can do the best we 
can on the wildfire side, but 

973
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:16,720
there's going to be some things 
that are out of out of our 

974
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:18,560
control and we have to manage it
better. 

975
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,120
And I think there's a lot of 
smart people thinking about that

976
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,480
on the wire side. 
I think that's where we can we 

977
00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:24,960
can make a lot of progress, 
right. 

978
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:29,440
And I think that's where we need
to retool the business model, 

979
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:34,360
retool how people plan, retool 
how, you know, large loads, 

980
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,320
interconnect. 
And I think everyone's got to 

981
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:41,000
join forces here or I think 
you're going to see all these 

982
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,120
people that are upset right now 
in the state of California want 

983
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,520
wholesale change. 
And, you know, maybe that's the 

984
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:47,520
way we need to go. 
We'll see. 

985
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,120
Well, Arnab, it is always a 
pleasure to have you on. 

986
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,680
You always bring a lot of 
insights to what we're 

987
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,200
discussing here, so thanks for 
being available. 

988
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:05,160
Thanks for having me. 
Hello, welcome to Ask Jigger, a 

989
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,320
weekly segment on Energy Empire 
where I answer your energy 

990
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,960
questions. 
Ask Jigger is supported by our 

991
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,720
friends at Octopus Energy. 
If you want to submit a 

992
00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:16,120
question, the link is in the 
show notes. 

993
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,960
All right, let's get into it. 
Our first question is from our 

994
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,600
good friend Andy Revkin and he 
asks when you were running the 

995
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,440
energy loan program, there was 
an abundance in federal assets 

996
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:30,360
for clean energy and efficiency.
You wisely told me that the key 

997
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,440
need was for a community based 
energy mavens to connect local 

998
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,400
decision makers with federal 
resources. 

999
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,760
What's your advice to local 
leaders now? 

1000
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,160
I would say that my advice is 
the same, right? 

1001
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,400
I mean, I think when you think 
about how much energy costs have

1002
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,800
gone up and just how many 
solutions we have that are right

1003
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,160
to go, whether it's solar and 
battery storage or whether it's 

1004
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:55,800
electric vehicles, whether it's 
heat pumps or insulation or you 

1005
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,160
know, these days there's next 
generation technologies for 

1006
00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,680
heating, ventilation and air 
conditioning, right, to really 

1007
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:06,720
reduce your costs of managing 
your HVAC units at your work. 

1008
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,080
We have a lot of technologies 
that have paybacks that are less

1009
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,240
than four years that just aren't
being installed. 

1010
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,880
And when you ask people, they 
say, well, we've never heard of 

1011
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:18,520
them. 
We don't know those companies, 

1012
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:19,960
right? 
I mean, and so I talk about a 

1013
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:24,160
lot of those companies on my 
LinkedIn or on my podcasts or on

1014
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:26,880
Twitter. 
But I think that we've got to 

1015
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,280
collect that information and 
we've got to go to City Council 

1016
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:31,840
meetings. 
We've got to go to County 

1017
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:34,600
Council meetings and we've got 
to go to the school board 

1018
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,440
meetings and say, hey, you know,
this stuff is cost effective. 

1019
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:41,520
How about we figure out how to 
deploy it at this moment of an 

1020
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,480
energy crisis? 
The next question is from Joe 

1021
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:48,040
Murray. 
And he's a student at Duke 

1022
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,440
University, and he was talking 
about being at a Goldman 

1023
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,920
recruiting event this past fall 
and asking a managing director 

1024
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,160
what he thinks about virtual 
power plants and how it'll 

1025
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,840
influence valuations for 
utilities. 

1026
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:05,360
Look, I think that at the end of
the day, the virtual power plant

1027
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,560
grid utilization stuff that I'm 
working on, other people working

1028
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,440
on is not going to reduce 
utility stock prices. 

1029
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:16,840
I think what it'll do is to get 
them to stop overspending on 

1030
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,120
infrastructure that is 
underutilized. 

1031
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:23,960
And so today, we're faced with 
9% rate increases for as far as 

1032
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,000
the eye can see. 
Whereas if they deploy virtual 

1033
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,240
power plants, if they deploy 
grid enhancing technologies, 

1034
00:51:30,240 --> 00:51:34,240
advanced conductors, lots of 
stuff that's lower cost, then 

1035
00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:38,320
you could imagine using the grid
that we've already paid for more

1036
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:41,680
efficiently and keeping rates 
flat, right? 

1037
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,360
And then if you then add data 
center load growth, then you 

1038
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:48,840
might actually be able to reduce
the utility bills by 10%, right?

1039
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:53,480
So I think that this is not a 
bad thing for utilities as much 

1040
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,480
as it's a culture change. 
And they're used to doing things

1041
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,960
the old, most expensive way. 
And we got to get them to do 

1042
00:51:59,960 --> 00:52:03,160
things in a way that's smarter 
for their ratepayers and their 

1043
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,200
governors, frankly, many of whom
are running for election right 

1044
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,080
now. 
The next one is from Rod Adams. 

1045
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:14,440
He asks, please explain why 
nuclear energy supporters should

1046
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:19,480
love cheap battery storage. 
And the answer is because it's 

1047
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,440
not about nuclear and it's not 
about solar and it's not about 

1048
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,160
wind. 
It's not about natural gas or 

1049
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,640
coal or hydro. 
It's about the grid. 

1050
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,160
The grid is the greatest 
engineering accomplishment of 

1051
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:36,120
the 20th century, not any of 
those one technologies. 

1052
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:41,040
And battery storage actually 
allows you to manage the grid 

1053
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,960
better. 
So we have the largest commodity

1054
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,560
supply chain in the world that 
doesn't feature storage in the 

1055
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,080
electric utility system. 
What do you think about our food

1056
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,240
system? 
Or We're all learning about 

1057
00:52:52,240 --> 00:52:55,680
storage with the Straits of 
Hormuz challenge in fuels or 

1058
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:59,320
whether we talk about other 
commodity supply chains, we 

1059
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:03,320
feature storage. 
But in the grid, we don't really

1060
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,400
feature storage except for some,
you know, like pumped hydro. 

1061
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:08,840
And so now I think we're adding 
storage. 

1062
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,000
And the storage helps nuclear, 
it helps solar, it helps wind, 

1063
00:53:12,240 --> 00:53:15,360
it helps natural gas, it helps 
everything run better. 

1064
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,560
And higher grid utilization is 
how we get to lower electricity 

1065
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:22,560
bills for everybody. 
Our last question is from Karma 

1066
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:27,280
Dispensary from the energy 
subreddit on Reddit. 

1067
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:33,000
And he says or she says, I live 
in Northern California and the 

1068
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:36,840
utilities feel less reliable 
every year after buying a place.

1069
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,280
We're in the process of getting 
enough solar and batteries to be

1070
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,640
entirely self-sufficient. 
I know there are many benefits 

1071
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,440
to distributed grids. 
I can't shake the impression 

1072
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,560
that if everyone makes this 
decision, grids will be much 

1073
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:53,080
worse off. 
Fewer users to spread capital 

1074
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,320
investments over. 
Is mass disconnect something you

1075
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:01,240
think about much and if it is a 
significant threat to the grid? 

1076
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:04,520
Look, I think mass affection is 
a. 

1077
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:09,680
Significant threat to the grid. 
As is not metering 2 point O as 

1078
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:13,400
you get to 10% of all the homes 
in California having solar on 

1079
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,720
them. 
But now we have NEM 3 point O. 

1080
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:20,800
NEM 3 point O features a much 
higher fixed cost and it also 

1081
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,360
features that you don't really 
get paid much to export power 

1082
00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:26,640
back into the grid. 
So you're really running your 

1083
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:30,440
home more like a micro grid 
where you basically take it off 

1084
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:33,880
grid, right? 
That's awesome because remember 

1085
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,320
we are going to have to 
electrify everything. 

1086
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:40,560
So right now the United States, 
our primary energy is roughly 

1087
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:44,360
25% electricity, 75% non 
electricity. 

1088
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:49,720
China is at 35% electricity, 65%
non electricity. 

1089
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,040
So we should be able to meet 
what China has done if we went 

1090
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,400
from 25% electricity to 35% 
electricity, right? 

1091
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,000
That means a lot more electric 
vehicles. 

1092
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:01,760
It means a lot more heat pumps, 
it means maybe induction stoves.

1093
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:06,600
All of that is increased demand 
on the circuit that your home is

1094
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,920
on. 
And the question becomes how do 

1095
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,360
we get the utility to use the 
battery that you're going to 

1096
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:15,800
install as part of the grid? 
And that's a lot of the work 

1097
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,440
that we've been doing in. 
California through a nonprofit I

1098
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:22,080
support Condeploy Action. 
But it's also a lot of the 

1099
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,200
arguments that we're having 
across the country. 

1100
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,320
So when you think about data 
center load growth, when you 

1101
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,760
think about all these other 
things, figuring out how to do 

1102
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,680
virtual power plants with your 
battery is how we actually get 

1103
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:39,960
to electrify more of the grid, 
more of our primary energy while

1104
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:42,440
reducing electricity costs for 
everybody. 

1105
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:44,320
So. 
Everybody should be. 

1106
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,600
Thanking you for putting solar 
and battery storage in and when 

1107
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:51,640
the utility finally offers you a
virtual power plant, you should 

1108
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:53,600
opt in and get the discount that
they. 

1109
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,680
Offer you for doing that that's 
it for this week's ask Jigar 

1110
00:55:58,240 --> 00:56:01,400
thanks to our great friends at 
octopus energy for supporting 

1111
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:04,360
this segment if you've. 
Got a question you want me to 

1112
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:05,840
answer? 
Send it in. 

1113
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:14,560
The link is in the show notes. 
As usual, we want to thank our 

1114
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,040
podcast sponsors. 
We really just couldn't do it 

1115
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:21,400
without him and really want to 
thank Simon who is sitting there

1116
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,920
behind the scenes just making us
all sound good by selectively 

1117
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:26,720
editing out all the dumb things 
that I say. 

1118
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,680
And you can find us anywhere you
listen to podcasts. 

1119
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:34,880
So, you know, Apple Podcasts, 
Spotify, YouTube, you know, 

1120
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:39,040
subscribe, send comments. 
It's actually super valuable. 

1121
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,880
And folks have been emailing us.
Like crazy, which is great. 

1122
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:45,000
You can get to our e-mail 
address through our energy 

1123
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:48,720
Empire dot FM website. 
Super easy and we're actually 

1124
00:56:48,720 --> 00:56:50,520
pretty responsive surprisingly 
to me. 

1125
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:52,800
But really want to thank 
everybody for being here.