Hey, it's Jigger Shaw. Welcome back to Energy Empire.
This is the second of our three special episodes from the UNC
Clean Tech Summit, produced in partnership with Suncast.
This week. I sat down with Michael Regan,
the 16th administrator of the EPA under President Biden and
the first black man to ever lead the agency.
It's a pretty candid conversation.
Love to know how you think about it.
A lot of folks want to characterize clean energy and
climate as an existential threat in a fight, and I'm not going to
say that they aren't. But when it comes right down to
the work that we're trying to accomplish, it is about
establishing long term healthful environments for our families
and for the generations to come. Few people have been able to tie
the work that we're doing in energy and climate to public
health. Like our next guest, Michael
Regan is the former administrator of the EPA and is
also a fellow N Carolinian. It's awesome to have you here,
Michael, with Jigger and I on this collaboration podcast
between Suncast and Energy Empire.
Well, thank you all for having me.
I'm a big fan of the podcast and you finally invited me.
That's right. You've made it.
We didn't have practice reps before we got superstars on you.
Know I was. Going to say I feel like we've
made it now so. That's great.
I mentioned that you grew up here in North Carolina.
You know your father is a veteran National Guard, worked
in agriculture, helping farmers take care of their land.
You grew up like I did, hunting and fishing and really
understanding the stewardship of the land.
Did you talk about what it was like growing up in that world?
I had a blast. I I grew up hunting and fishing
with my father and grandfather. And, you know, it wasn't just
sort of being out in nature hunting and fishing.
It was being with my father and grandfather an opportunity to
bond and to learn and hear the stories.
And so I really valued that time.
It was very precious to me and growing up I did have some
issues, some respiratory issues that were exacerbated by
pollution. And when the ozone was really
intense, those ozone action days, those were times that I
could not be outdoors with my father and grandfather.
So you can imagine as a kid wanting to be out there with
them and having to sit in the house, that was no fun.
Sort of very early age, I started to make the connection
between public health personally and nature and the environment.
But I had a wonderful childhood, rural eastern North Carolina,
and I really try to always think back to what that meant to me
and how do I incorporate that into my service.
Yeah, I think when you think about, you know, the origin
story of the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, right, the
Cuyahoga River being on fire, you know, 20 million Americans,
I mean, 10% of the entire US population participated in the
first Earth Day. Yes, Right.
I mean, clearly there were a lot of people who had that similar
sort of life story to you around the fact that something was
clearly wrong, right? That we were a lot of balance in
a way, right? And that we were prioritizing,
you know, economic growth over human health, right?
Talk more about your, you know, the bad air days and like, you
know, how did you make a connection between that
experience for you and what was causing it?
Yes, that's a very good question.
It took a while for me to really make that connection.
But in high school, you know, as the chemistry and biology
classes become more intent, you start to ask yourself some
questions and you start to understand how these things
connect. And it's at that point where you
really start to talk to others. And at that time in life, we
didn't really have the vocabulary to understand
environmental justice. We just knew what was happening
to us as individuals, but then you talk to others in your
community and then you realize, hey, this is happening more
frequently than one might think. I pursued an environmental
science degree at Anti State University, and it's really
there that I started to understand the connectivity to
pollution, public health, and the impact to natural resources.
I think it's something that has always been a focus because it's
so personal. But again, you quickly realize
it's not just about us as individuals.
You start to talk to others and see, quite frankly, that there
are some that have it much worse than you do.
And when I look back and I think about some of the surrounding
communities where I grew up, there were a lot of communities
that were much closer to a hog lagoon than we were, much closer
to a coal ash pond than we were most, much closer to an
industrial operation than we were.
And it's at that juncture you start to think, wow, what if I
lived that close to some of those operations?
I would have been in much worse condition.
And that's where some of the passion comes from.
Now, you mentioned coal ash. A lot of folks now rightly know
the work that you did at the EPA before that you were running
North Carolina's Department of Environmental Quality, won a
landmark case against Duke, 80 million tons of coal ash as an
as a judgement that that alone must have felt very sort of
vindicating and and honorable in the work.
I'm curious the amount of work that you did that really is it
it changed the way chemical companies and utilities think
about how they have to interact with the communities.
Yes. It's transformative, not just
for the state of North Carolina, but other states that are
watching and learning from it. Where did that confidence come
from to attack this kind of a social justice issue?
I have to tell you, while I always had a a personal
intrinsic motivation, the day I was being sworn in as Secretary
of the Department of Environmental Quality, I bumped
into a former governor, Jim Hunt, who told me that if I
really wanted to know the state, that I needed to visit all 100
counties. We did 90 counties and then
COVID hit. But during that tour and
visiting those 90 counties, when you sit down in the living room
with the mother whose child has asthma that's exacerbated by a
cement kiln, or if you're talking to some grandparents
whose water wells have been contaminated by coal ash, if you
care, it's really hard to look away.
And so spending time in the communities with people in their
living rooms, one-on-one, having the personal conversations led
me to believe that I had to do everything that I could to
uphold the mission of the agency, which is to protect
public health. When most people think about
EPA, they think about the environment.
I think about EPA. It's really a public health
agency 1st. And so staying connected in that
way really incentivize me to push as hard as possible.
Working with the former attorney general who is now governor of
North Carolina, Josh Stein, and the Department of Justice, we
pursued the largest coal ash settlement in United States
history. I think Duke Energy understood
that they needed to put that chapter behind them so that we
all could collectively focus on clean energy, and they could not
focus on a clean energy future with that dark cloud hanging
over them. And we needed to rectify the
significant issues that they caused in so many communities
all across North Carolina. No, I think that's well said.
I you know, I I continue to struggle though with, you know,
the fact that the EPA really was created around as you suggested,
all of these communities were in some ways forced to live next to
a lot of this pollution and that there was a responsibility to to
find a balance. Yes right.
And, you know, when communities tested their own water, did
something to, like, you know, prove that there was maybe some
harm there, that there was a responsive EPA to, like,
actually help them through that process.
I do think that there's been a feeling on behalf of many of
these communities and it bubbled up a lot in the wake of George
Floyd's death, right? Going into the 2020 election,
that EPA was really focused on shutting down coal plants, but
not necessarily focused on serving those communities.
I'm wondering whether you heard the same thing from those
communities and whether like while you were administrator,
like they felt more heard that the processes felt more
transparent. Like, I mean, what is it that
like, what is the relationship now between those communities
and those groups and. EPA.
Well, I'll tell you, I learned a ton from the Governor Hunt
suggestion. And so when I became EP
administrator, within a couple of months we launched a Journey
to Justice tour. It started with Mississippi,
Louisiana, and Texas, but by the time we finished with the
administration, we had toured the entire country, including
Puerto Rico and Alaska. It reshaped my agenda.
Of course, the president had an agenda, but spending time in
those communities, whether you're in McDowell County, West
Virginia or Lowndes County, Alabama, when you see straight
piping out the side of a house into the Creek where people are
getting their water, when you understand the number of
petrochemical facilities that are lay lined against, lined up
against communities in Louisiana, that's where you
start to really focus the agency's mission.
And we're supposed to provide equal protection under the law
for everyone, irrespective of political affiliation, how much
money they have in their pocket or the color of their skin.
And so I will tell you that the folks in Alaska are Puerto Rico
in the South, in the Southwest, really helped me understand that
you have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
You can't solely focus on coal plants.
You have to focus on all pollution sources, and you have
to prioritize the communities that are most vulnerable.
And I believe that's what we did.
And not only do I believe it, we received billions of dollars
from Congress to pursue these actions.
And to answer your question directly, over the four year
period I was EPA Administrator, we developed relationships with
communities that had never existed before.
We've worked very hard to earn their trust and right now it's a
significant disappointment that they are not having the same
seat at the table that we gave them.
Administrator, it is I, I share that sense of disappointment and
I'm sure that we can dig in a little deeper on kind of what
you're seeing now from the sidelines before we go there.
And I appreciate you tying connecting the work that you did
visiting all the counties to the journey of justice.
I'd like a little bit more understanding of how that showed
up in regulations that you wrote.
How did it affect the work more than the dollars that were
funded flowing in? How did they show up in
legislation during your time? Well, I can tell you what it the
first place it showed up in was enforcement.
Yeah. We were not taking action in
these communities from an enforcement standpoint like we
should. The data and the record from the
enforcement action further substantiated the direction we
needed to go in many regulations to ensure that everyone was
properly protected. And there were some flaws in our
regulations that left certain data sets out for certain people
behind. And so as we pursued regulations
for certain chemicals, as we looked at the emissions coming
from petrochemical facilities, as we looked at, you know, our
natural gas facilities, our coal facilities, we were able to put
certain people and certain data sets and certain things in the
context and demand that certain technologies be applied.
It was never about shutting down any facility.
It was about controlling the pollution and the emissions. 1
regulation that I will point out is a regulation focused on the
petrochemical industry. And there is a community in
Louisiana in one of the parishes where we reduce the risk of
elevated cancer by over 96% with 1 regulation.
And and that regulation really brought into focus how we have
been missing the mark for so many years.
Yeah, I mean, I, I think that like when you think about what
this new administration, you know, the, the press and the
narrative that's coming out of it around the endangerment, you
know, find finding the, the coal plant work, etcetera.
You know. Give me some more information on
what they're doing on the enforcement side of things,
because I don't see that in the press.
I don't feel like that's part of the narrative.
I don't feel like folks are talking about it.
I mean, are they rolling back enforcement?
Are they rolling back? You know, some of the good work
that's done on clean air and clean water?
Absolutely, We are seeing a retreat from the leadership
position that EPA should play. The endangerment finding
argument really from this administration isn't about the
science. They are stipulating that it's
out of EPH jurisdiction to control pollution that impacts
public health. Yeah.
That's mind blowing. So we're not even talking about
an attack on the science per SE. We're talking about an attack on
the agency's mission. So yes, we are seeing a retreat
in regulatory oversight and we're absolutely seeing a
retreat in enforcement of the laws that are on the books that
are supposed to protect the least amongst us.
It's very troubling. And, and I will say, because
most people will think that what we did was political, but
whether you were in McDowell County, West Virginia, which was
a very red county majority population that are white, or
Lowndes County, Alabama, they were facing the same issues.
And so when we have this retreat like we're seeing now, I can
assure you it is just as much, if not more impactful to red
counties as it is to blue counties.
You really can't put borders around pollution and public
Health Protection, and I don't think we should pretend that you
can't. Oh, people do care about the
health and safety of their family.
Absolutely. So much of what you fought for
is getting rolled back right before your eyes.
What do you think is really gone that we might, can't, might not
get back? What can we salvage?
And even and more importantly, what can justice communities do
to have a voice at this time? Well, I, I think we have to
remain optimistic. And under the Biden
administration, not only did we build trust with communities
that we never had before through grants, through connectivity, we
built infrastructure that never existed before.
Yes, that infrastructure, that connectivity, that leadership is
paused for now, but there's a foundation there that will be
poised for the next opportunity. I do believe that we've lost a
lot of time. I do believe that a lot of
people will get hurt. I do believe we've lost a lot of
talent. But regulations, as you both
know, are not something you turn on and turn off.
You have to go through a process.
And I think we need to be prepared to litigate the process
by which these regulations are unlawfully being terminated.
And I think we really need to litigate the lack of equal
protection under the law for all people all across this country.
And I don't see the American people being protected
adequately with the assault that we're seeing on certain
regulations and certain policies.
I do. Think it's blowing back on the
administration now, though it does feel like, I think part of
what you're saying, I think is that there is like this sort of
business as usual approach that they're sort of trying to go
back to. But I think that that's also
hurting them on the data center side.
So when you look at like this ratepayer protection pledge,
right? I mean, part of that is, well,
you can meet the pledge by building new coal plants or new
natural gas plants, right, to support these these new data
centers. But you can also do it through
deployment of batteries, deployment of resiliency
technologies, deployment of energy efficiency,
weatherization in people's homes, right?
I mean, I guess what I'm trying to figure out a little bit,
though, is that part of what you did as administrator was to, you
know, try to facilitate a different type of conversation,
one where you could get a win, win on two or three different
fronts just by spending a little more time listening and a lot of
my time talking. And I'm curious like that
approach, though, seems like it's relevant in this moment
where, you know, Duke is is trying to raise rates 15% in the
state of North Carolina because they want to use business as
usual techniques and they don't instead want to lean into
battery storage or lean into other technologies.
Like, tell me a little bit more about the process and what we
learned about the process of being more inclusive and whether
that really gets you to a better outcome.
It it absolutely gets you to a better outcome.
People Washington DC and sometimes Raleigh seems to think
that communities are anti growth or anti business.
That is absolutely a myth. Folks want jobs.
They want a strong tax base so
that they can have good schools and, and, and, and, and, and,
you know, opportunities to go to a museum or see a Symphony.
And so they want to see growth. They just want to see growth
that is not disrespectful to them and their culture.
And so through conversation, I found it's the easiest, easiest
path to make the process more efficient.
And yes, you have to tweak your plans here and there, but at the
end of the day, you can get the project done as we're seeing
with data centers. I believe that this country is
approaching this topic haphazardly and the constituency
is too educated to stand by and not understand how to stop
things. Did you know that the latest
poll numbers actually show the data centers are more hated than
ice than ice? I mean, like, you have to really
screw up the narrative and communication you do to, to be
pulling that low, you know, like, but like, you have to keep
going. Sorry.
Well, I, I, I, I think that what happens is when anytime you try
to shove anything down anybody's throat, they're resistant.
Yeah. And I think you have to
acknowledge the potential negative aspects of any
construction project, whether that be a data center or a
natural gas combined cycle project or a solar project.
A construction site is a construction site in the eyes of
someone who owns property. But when you go in and have a
conversation about how it will be done, take in some ideas, see
if you can tweak that. I guarantee you most communities
will see a path forward that we all could work with.
This administration, time and time again, is fumbling that
ball. People's voices matter.
And I think as it relates to data centers, we're not even
getting to the communities talking about the negative
environmental impacts. Potentially people have educated
themselves on rates and affordability and they are
protesting these facilities based on an antiquated system
that we have in place to create and generate electricity in this
country, especially here in North Carolina.
I think Duke is is learning a big lesson and and they should.
Administrator Reagan, thank you for all the insight into what it
takes to really hold in high regard the public health of all
our communities. North Carolina, I'm sure across
the country, is seen as a very RedState, but in fact, it's a
very purple state. There's a lot of of need for
bipartisan action. You spent your whole career
learning to navigate and in some ways straddle that divide on
behalf of clean air and clean water.
I wonder what you've learned that as an industry from energy,
even AI, and as a communities we can carry forward that can help
breakthrough what has been a very partisan battle to to
elevate these topics in the public narrative as something
that is good for the general good rather than using them as
the whipping post for for political gain.
You know, when when Governor Cooper nominated me As for
secretary, there was a Republican super majority in the
North Carolina General Assembly and I got a unanimous
confirmation. Senator Richard Burr and Senator
Thom Tillis introduced me to the Senate when I was nominated for
EPA administrator for President Biden and I got a more than 60
plus vote from the United States Senate.
I've always understood that Republicans and Democrats are
people and most people want similar things.
And so I believe that in our conversations, we have to talk
about the benefits of what we're doing to all sides.
When I think about clean energy, I think about national security
just as much as I think about global competition, just as much
as I think about public health and protecting communities.
We want a competitive America. We want an America that works
for everyone. And we all know that the best
technologies tied to our markets, tied to American
ingenuity, we cannot run anyone in the world.
And we can do that without sacrificing our community.
So when we talk to Democrats and Republicans and we talk about
energy and infrastructure, I think we have to talk about the
fragility of our energy grid, our water infrastructure, and
what that does to us as a nation.
And then we have to think about what are the solutions.
And if you look at the cost effective solutions, the most
efficient solutions, the solutions that are winning the
data around the world, they're the solutions that just happen
to fall into our category of being called clean.
You can have that as a lead headline for climate, you can
have it as a lead headline for communities, or you can have it
as a lead headline for global competitiveness.
I believe it's all three. Well.
Thank you for being here, your moral clarity is truly
inspiring, so such a pleasure to have you.
Thank you. Thanks, Michael.
Thank you. That was Michael Regan, recorded
live at the UNC Clean Tech Summit.
One more episode left in this series.
Dan Sugar, founder and CEO of Next Power, one of the people
who has done more to scale solar development globally than almost
anyone alive. And don't forget, if you want to
hear our conversations with John Shoka and Ahmad Shatila from the
same summit, those are on Suncast.
Go find Nico wherever you get your podcasts.