1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,960 Hey, it's Jigger Shaw. Welcome back to Energy Empire. 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:08,119 This is the second of our three special episodes from the UNC 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,560 Clean Tech Summit, produced in partnership with Suncast. 4 00:00:12,040 --> 00:00:14,720 This week. I sat down with Michael Regan, 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,960 the 16th administrator of the EPA under President Biden and 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,040 the first black man to ever lead the agency. 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:25,680 It's a pretty candid conversation. 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,600 Love to know how you think about it. 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,520 A lot of folks want to characterize clean energy and 10 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:44,640 climate as an existential threat in a fight, and I'm not going to 11 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,520 say that they aren't. But when it comes right down to 12 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,480 the work that we're trying to accomplish, it is about 13 00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:56,200 establishing long term healthful environments for our families 14 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,960 and for the generations to come. Few people have been able to tie 15 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,960 the work that we're doing in energy and climate to public 16 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,600 health. Like our next guest, Michael 17 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:11,560 Regan is the former administrator of the EPA and is 18 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,960 also a fellow N Carolinian. It's awesome to have you here, 19 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:19,000 Michael, with Jigger and I on this collaboration podcast 20 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:20,600 between Suncast and Energy Empire. 21 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:22,360 Well, thank you all for having me. 22 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,760 I'm a big fan of the podcast and you finally invited me. 23 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:27,240 That's right. You've made it. 24 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,120 We didn't have practice reps before we got superstars on you. 25 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:32,400 Know I was. Going to say I feel like we've 26 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,600 made it now so. That's great. 27 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,240 I mentioned that you grew up here in North Carolina. 28 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:41,240 You know your father is a veteran National Guard, worked 29 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,160 in agriculture, helping farmers take care of their land. 30 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:48,880 You grew up like I did, hunting and fishing and really 31 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:50,160 understanding the stewardship of the land. 32 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,440 Did you talk about what it was like growing up in that world? 33 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,040 I had a blast. I I grew up hunting and fishing 34 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,800 with my father and grandfather. And, you know, it wasn't just 35 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,200 sort of being out in nature hunting and fishing. 36 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:10,199 It was being with my father and grandfather an opportunity to 37 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:13,320 bond and to learn and hear the stories. 38 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,920 And so I really valued that time. 39 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:22,800 It was very precious to me and growing up I did have some 40 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,880 issues, some respiratory issues that were exacerbated by 41 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,240 pollution. And when the ozone was really 42 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,000 intense, those ozone action days, those were times that I 43 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,760 could not be outdoors with my father and grandfather. 44 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,800 So you can imagine as a kid wanting to be out there with 45 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,960 them and having to sit in the house, that was no fun. 46 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,960 Sort of very early age, I started to make the connection 47 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:52,840 between public health personally and nature and the environment. 48 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,520 But I had a wonderful childhood, rural eastern North Carolina, 49 00:02:59,640 --> 00:03:05,960 and I really try to always think back to what that meant to me 50 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,080 and how do I incorporate that into my service. 51 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,520 Yeah, I think when you think about, you know, the origin 52 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,800 story of the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, right, the 53 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,840 Cuyahoga River being on fire, you know, 20 million Americans, 54 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,920 I mean, 10% of the entire US population participated in the 55 00:03:25,920 --> 00:03:27,560 first Earth Day. Yes, Right. 56 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,080 I mean, clearly there were a lot of people who had that similar 57 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,280 sort of life story to you around the fact that something was 58 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:41,080 clearly wrong, right? That we were a lot of balance in 59 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,720 a way, right? And that we were prioritizing, 60 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,480 you know, economic growth over human health, right? 61 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,400 Talk more about your, you know, the bad air days and like, you 62 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:57,440 know, how did you make a connection between that 63 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,200 experience for you and what was causing it? 64 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,440 Yes, that's a very good question. 65 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,160 It took a while for me to really make that connection. 66 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:12,120 But in high school, you know, as the chemistry and biology 67 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,079 classes become more intent, you start to ask yourself some 68 00:04:16,079 --> 00:04:19,240 questions and you start to understand how these things 69 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,160 connect. And it's at that point where you 70 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:27,920 really start to talk to others. And at that time in life, we 71 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:32,320 didn't really have the vocabulary to understand 72 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:34,680 environmental justice. We just knew what was happening 73 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,480 to us as individuals, but then you talk to others in your 74 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,000 community and then you realize, hey, this is happening more 75 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:45,320 frequently than one might think. I pursued an environmental 76 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,240 science degree at Anti State University, and it's really 77 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,800 there that I started to understand the connectivity to 78 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:56,200 pollution, public health, and the impact to natural resources. 79 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:03,680 I think it's something that has always been a focus because it's 80 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,360 so personal. But again, you quickly realize 81 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:09,040 it's not just about us as individuals. 82 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,760 You start to talk to others and see, quite frankly, that there 83 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:14,560 are some that have it much worse than you do. 84 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,520 And when I look back and I think about some of the surrounding 85 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,680 communities where I grew up, there were a lot of communities 86 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:27,320 that were much closer to a hog lagoon than we were, much closer 87 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,920 to a coal ash pond than we were most, much closer to an 88 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:32,960 industrial operation than we were. 89 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,640 And it's at that juncture you start to think, wow, what if I 90 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,160 lived that close to some of those operations? 91 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,520 I would have been in much worse condition. 92 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:46,560 And that's where some of the passion comes from. 93 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,560 Now, you mentioned coal ash. A lot of folks now rightly know 94 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,880 the work that you did at the EPA before that you were running 95 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,640 North Carolina's Department of Environmental Quality, won a 96 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:04,160 landmark case against Duke, 80 million tons of coal ash as an 97 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:09,320 as a judgement that that alone must have felt very sort of 98 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:12,360 vindicating and and honorable in the work. 99 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:20,560 I'm curious the amount of work that you did that really is it 100 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:22,960 it changed the way chemical companies and utilities think 101 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:24,600 about how they have to interact with the communities. 102 00:06:24,640 --> 00:06:27,840 Yes. It's transformative, not just 103 00:06:27,840 --> 00:06:29,480 for the state of North Carolina, but other states that are 104 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,680 watching and learning from it. Where did that confidence come 105 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,800 from to attack this kind of a social justice issue? 106 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,920 I have to tell you, while I always had a a personal 107 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:46,720 intrinsic motivation, the day I was being sworn in as Secretary 108 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,520 of the Department of Environmental Quality, I bumped 109 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:54,520 into a former governor, Jim Hunt, who told me that if I 110 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,240 really wanted to know the state, that I needed to visit all 100 111 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:02,240 counties. We did 90 counties and then 112 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,920 COVID hit. But during that tour and 113 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:11,080 visiting those 90 counties, when you sit down in the living room 114 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:16,200 with the mother whose child has asthma that's exacerbated by a 115 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,680 cement kiln, or if you're talking to some grandparents 116 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:25,400 whose water wells have been contaminated by coal ash, if you 117 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,720 care, it's really hard to look away. 118 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:32,480 And so spending time in the communities with people in their 119 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:37,400 living rooms, one-on-one, having the personal conversations led 120 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,800 me to believe that I had to do everything that I could to 121 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,760 uphold the mission of the agency, which is to protect 122 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,040 public health. When most people think about 123 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,240 EPA, they think about the environment. 124 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,120 I think about EPA. It's really a public health 125 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,760 agency 1st. And so staying connected in that 126 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:03,880 way really incentivize me to push as hard as possible. 127 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,640 Working with the former attorney general who is now governor of 128 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:14,120 North Carolina, Josh Stein, and the Department of Justice, we 129 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:17,880 pursued the largest coal ash settlement in United States 130 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,520 history. I think Duke Energy understood 131 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,120 that they needed to put that chapter behind them so that we 132 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,120 all could collectively focus on clean energy, and they could not 133 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,200 focus on a clean energy future with that dark cloud hanging 134 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:34,679 over them. And we needed to rectify the 135 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,520 significant issues that they caused in so many communities 136 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,960 all across North Carolina. No, I think that's well said. 137 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:45,760 I you know, I I continue to struggle though with, you know, 138 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:51,360 the fact that the EPA really was created around as you suggested, 139 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,560 all of these communities were in some ways forced to live next to 140 00:08:55,560 --> 00:09:00,440 a lot of this pollution and that there was a responsibility to to 141 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:02,000 find a balance. Yes right. 142 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,960 And, you know, when communities tested their own water, did 143 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,160 something to, like, you know, prove that there was maybe some 144 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,920 harm there, that there was a responsive EPA to, like, 145 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,160 actually help them through that process. 146 00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:20,120 I do think that there's been a feeling on behalf of many of 147 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,360 these communities and it bubbled up a lot in the wake of George 148 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:26,480 Floyd's death, right? Going into the 2020 election, 149 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:32,080 that EPA was really focused on shutting down coal plants, but 150 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,080 not necessarily focused on serving those communities. 151 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,880 I'm wondering whether you heard the same thing from those 152 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:43,000 communities and whether like while you were administrator, 153 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,120 like they felt more heard that the processes felt more 154 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,800 transparent. Like, I mean, what is it that 155 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,480 like, what is the relationship now between those communities 156 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:55,560 and those groups and. EPA. 157 00:09:56,040 --> 00:10:00,440 Well, I'll tell you, I learned a ton from the Governor Hunt 158 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,720 suggestion. And so when I became EP 159 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,280 administrator, within a couple of months we launched a Journey 160 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,800 to Justice tour. It started with Mississippi, 161 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,920 Louisiana, and Texas, but by the time we finished with the 162 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:20,400 administration, we had toured the entire country, including 163 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,760 Puerto Rico and Alaska. It reshaped my agenda. 164 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:29,720 Of course, the president had an agenda, but spending time in 165 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:34,160 those communities, whether you're in McDowell County, West 166 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:39,440 Virginia or Lowndes County, Alabama, when you see straight 167 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,640 piping out the side of a house into the Creek where people are 168 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:48,480 getting their water, when you understand the number of 169 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:53,440 petrochemical facilities that are lay lined against, lined up 170 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:58,040 against communities in Louisiana, that's where you 171 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,080 start to really focus the agency's mission. 172 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:04,760 And we're supposed to provide equal protection under the law 173 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,880 for everyone, irrespective of political affiliation, how much 174 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,640 money they have in their pocket or the color of their skin. 175 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:18,560 And so I will tell you that the folks in Alaska are Puerto Rico 176 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:24,560 in the South, in the Southwest, really helped me understand that 177 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:26,840 you have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. 178 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:30,200 You can't solely focus on coal plants. 179 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,000 You have to focus on all pollution sources, and you have 180 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,600 to prioritize the communities that are most vulnerable. 181 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,640 And I believe that's what we did. 182 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:45,240 And not only do I believe it, we received billions of dollars 183 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,280 from Congress to pursue these actions. 184 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,080 And to answer your question directly, over the four year 185 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,400 period I was EPA Administrator, we developed relationships with 186 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,280 communities that had never existed before. 187 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,560 We've worked very hard to earn their trust and right now it's a 188 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:06,720 significant disappointment that they are not having the same 189 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,520 seat at the table that we gave them. 190 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:13,200 Administrator, it is I, I share that sense of disappointment and 191 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,800 I'm sure that we can dig in a little deeper on kind of what 192 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,360 you're seeing now from the sidelines before we go there. 193 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,080 And I appreciate you tying connecting the work that you did 194 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,520 visiting all the counties to the journey of justice. 195 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,960 I'd like a little bit more understanding of how that showed 196 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:33,280 up in regulations that you wrote. 197 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,200 How did it affect the work more than the dollars that were 198 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:40,520 funded flowing in? How did they show up in 199 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:43,240 legislation during your time? Well, I can tell you what it the 200 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:45,400 first place it showed up in was enforcement. 201 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,480 Yeah. We were not taking action in 202 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,520 these communities from an enforcement standpoint like we 203 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,600 should. The data and the record from the 204 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,840 enforcement action further substantiated the direction we 205 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:04,480 needed to go in many regulations to ensure that everyone was 206 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:07,120 properly protected. And there were some flaws in our 207 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,520 regulations that left certain data sets out for certain people 208 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:14,960 behind. And so as we pursued regulations 209 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,880 for certain chemicals, as we looked at the emissions coming 210 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:24,200 from petrochemical facilities, as we looked at, you know, our 211 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:29,400 natural gas facilities, our coal facilities, we were able to put 212 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,240 certain people and certain data sets and certain things in the 213 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:36,160 context and demand that certain technologies be applied. 214 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,520 It was never about shutting down any facility. 215 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,680 It was about controlling the pollution and the emissions. 1 216 00:13:43,680 --> 00:13:50,000 regulation that I will point out is a regulation focused on the 217 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:56,360 petrochemical industry. And there is a community in 218 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,520 Louisiana in one of the parishes where we reduce the risk of 219 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:05,200 elevated cancer by over 96% with 1 regulation. 220 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:11,000 And and that regulation really brought into focus how we have 221 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,400 been missing the mark for so many years. 222 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,080 Yeah, I mean, I, I think that like when you think about what 223 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,000 this new administration, you know, the, the press and the 224 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,080 narrative that's coming out of it around the endangerment, you 225 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,200 know, find finding the, the coal plant work, etcetera. 226 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,440 You know. Give me some more information on 227 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,560 what they're doing on the enforcement side of things, 228 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,160 because I don't see that in the press. 229 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,360 I don't feel like that's part of the narrative. 230 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:40,560 I don't feel like folks are talking about it. 231 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,880 I mean, are they rolling back enforcement? 232 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,240 Are they rolling back? You know, some of the good work 233 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,400 that's done on clean air and clean water? 234 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,040 Absolutely, We are seeing a retreat from the leadership 235 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:57,840 position that EPA should play. The endangerment finding 236 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:03,360 argument really from this administration isn't about the 237 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:08,040 science. They are stipulating that it's 238 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,000 out of EPH jurisdiction to control pollution that impacts 239 00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:13,320 public health. Yeah. 240 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,200 That's mind blowing. So we're not even talking about 241 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,360 an attack on the science per SE. We're talking about an attack on 242 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:26,400 the agency's mission. So yes, we are seeing a retreat 243 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:31,160 in regulatory oversight and we're absolutely seeing a 244 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:36,600 retreat in enforcement of the laws that are on the books that 245 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,360 are supposed to protect the least amongst us. 246 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,840 It's very troubling. And, and I will say, because 247 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,720 most people will think that what we did was political, but 248 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,440 whether you were in McDowell County, West Virginia, which was 249 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:56,120 a very red county majority population that are white, or 250 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,720 Lowndes County, Alabama, they were facing the same issues. 251 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:08,440 And so when we have this retreat like we're seeing now, I can 252 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:13,080 assure you it is just as much, if not more impactful to red 253 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,320 counties as it is to blue counties. 254 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,320 You really can't put borders around pollution and public 255 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,800 Health Protection, and I don't think we should pretend that you 256 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:23,640 can't. Oh, people do care about the 257 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:25,040 health and safety of their family. 258 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,240 Absolutely. So much of what you fought for 259 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,440 is getting rolled back right before your eyes. 260 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,040 What do you think is really gone that we might, can't, might not 261 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:36,560 get back? What can we salvage? 262 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,760 And even and more importantly, what can justice communities do 263 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,280 to have a voice at this time? Well, I, I think we have to 264 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:46,600 remain optimistic. And under the Biden 265 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,520 administration, not only did we build trust with communities 266 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:55,280 that we never had before through grants, through connectivity, we 267 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,080 built infrastructure that never existed before. 268 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,960 Yes, that infrastructure, that connectivity, that leadership is 269 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:08,720 paused for now, but there's a foundation there that will be 270 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:14,200 poised for the next opportunity. I do believe that we've lost a 271 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,400 lot of time. I do believe that a lot of 272 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,240 people will get hurt. I do believe we've lost a lot of 273 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:25,680 talent. But regulations, as you both 274 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,440 know, are not something you turn on and turn off. 275 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:29,960 You have to go through a process. 276 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,960 And I think we need to be prepared to litigate the process 277 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:39,240 by which these regulations are unlawfully being terminated. 278 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:45,600 And I think we really need to litigate the lack of equal 279 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,360 protection under the law for all people all across this country. 280 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:54,800 And I don't see the American people being protected 281 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,960 adequately with the assault that we're seeing on certain 282 00:17:57,960 --> 00:17:59,520 regulations and certain policies. 283 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:02,040 I do. Think it's blowing back on the 284 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,520 administration now, though it does feel like, I think part of 285 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,280 what you're saying, I think is that there is like this sort of 286 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,480 business as usual approach that they're sort of trying to go 287 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,160 back to. But I think that that's also 288 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:16,640 hurting them on the data center side. 289 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:20,080 So when you look at like this ratepayer protection pledge, 290 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,000 right? I mean, part of that is, well, 291 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,440 you can meet the pledge by building new coal plants or new 292 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,680 natural gas plants, right, to support these these new data 293 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,960 centers. But you can also do it through 294 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,560 deployment of batteries, deployment of resiliency 295 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,680 technologies, deployment of energy efficiency, 296 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,600 weatherization in people's homes, right? 297 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,600 I mean, I guess what I'm trying to figure out a little bit, 298 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,960 though, is that part of what you did as administrator was to, you 299 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,440 know, try to facilitate a different type of conversation, 300 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,960 one where you could get a win, win on two or three different 301 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:58,320 fronts just by spending a little more time listening and a lot of 302 00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,440 my time talking. And I'm curious like that 303 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:04,320 approach, though, seems like it's relevant in this moment 304 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:08,960 where, you know, Duke is is trying to raise rates 15% in the 305 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,640 state of North Carolina because they want to use business as 306 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,680 usual techniques and they don't instead want to lean into 307 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,320 battery storage or lean into other technologies. 308 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,800 Like, tell me a little bit more about the process and what we 309 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,080 learned about the process of being more inclusive and whether 310 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,720 that really gets you to a better outcome. 311 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,600 It it absolutely gets you to a better outcome. 312 00:19:30,120 --> 00:19:37,120 People Washington DC and sometimes Raleigh seems to think 313 00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:40,600 that communities are anti growth or anti business. 314 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,720 That is absolutely a myth. Folks want jobs. 315 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,200 Folks want jobs. They want a strong tax base so 316 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,800 that they can have good schools and, and, and, and, and, and, 317 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:56,480 you know, opportunities to go to a museum or see a Symphony. 318 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,680 And so they want to see growth. They just want to see growth 319 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,360 that is not disrespectful to them and their culture. 320 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:10,200 And so through conversation, I found it's the easiest, easiest 321 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:12,720 path to make the process more efficient. 322 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,680 And yes, you have to tweak your plans here and there, but at the 323 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:20,120 end of the day, you can get the project done as we're seeing 324 00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:24,040 with data centers. I believe that this country is 325 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,680 approaching this topic haphazardly and the constituency 326 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:34,040 is too educated to stand by and not understand how to stop 327 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,440 things. Did you know that the latest 328 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,920 poll numbers actually show the data centers are more hated than 329 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:45,120 ice than ice? I mean, like, you have to really 330 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:50,760 screw up the narrative and communication you do to, to be 331 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,360 pulling that low, you know, like, but like, you have to keep 332 00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:54,040 going. Sorry. 333 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,800 Well, I, I, I, I think that what happens is when anytime you try 334 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,280 to shove anything down anybody's throat, they're resistant. 335 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:04,400 Yeah. And I think you have to 336 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,640 acknowledge the potential negative aspects of any 337 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,280 construction project, whether that be a data center or a 338 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:18,320 natural gas combined cycle project or a solar project. 339 00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:21,120 A construction site is a construction site in the eyes of 340 00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:23,880 someone who owns property. But when you go in and have a 341 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:29,600 conversation about how it will be done, take in some ideas, see 342 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,200 if you can tweak that. I guarantee you most communities 343 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,840 will see a path forward that we all could work with. 344 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,240 This administration, time and time again, is fumbling that 345 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:43,800 ball. People's voices matter. 346 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,400 And I think as it relates to data centers, we're not even 347 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,160 getting to the communities talking about the negative 348 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,400 environmental impacts. Potentially people have educated 349 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,440 themselves on rates and affordability and they are 350 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:04,880 protesting these facilities based on an antiquated system 351 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,920 that we have in place to create and generate electricity in this 352 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:10,960 country, especially here in North Carolina. 353 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,680 I think Duke is is learning a big lesson and and they should. 354 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:21,520 Administrator Reagan, thank you for all the insight into what it 355 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,880 takes to really hold in high regard the public health of all 356 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:30,480 our communities. North Carolina, I'm sure across 357 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,800 the country, is seen as a very RedState, but in fact, it's a 358 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,160 very purple state. There's a lot of of need for 359 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,760 bipartisan action. You spent your whole career 360 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:46,000 learning to navigate and in some ways straddle that divide on 361 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,880 behalf of clean air and clean water. 362 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,720 I wonder what you've learned that as an industry from energy, 363 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:59,040 even AI, and as a communities we can carry forward that can help 364 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,440 breakthrough what has been a very partisan battle to to 365 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,400 elevate these topics in the public narrative as something 366 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,320 that is good for the general good rather than using them as 367 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,640 the whipping post for for political gain. 368 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,400 You know, when when Governor Cooper nominated me As for 369 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:25,120 secretary, there was a Republican super majority in the 370 00:23:25,120 --> 00:23:28,160 North Carolina General Assembly and I got a unanimous 371 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,160 confirmation. Senator Richard Burr and Senator 372 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,000 Thom Tillis introduced me to the Senate when I was nominated for 373 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:41,800 EPA administrator for President Biden and I got a more than 60 374 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:44,120 plus vote from the United States Senate. 375 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,520 I've always understood that Republicans and Democrats are 376 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:53,320 people and most people want similar things. 377 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,000 And so I believe that in our conversations, we have to talk 378 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:01,040 about the benefits of what we're doing to all sides. 379 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,920 When I think about clean energy, I think about national security 380 00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:09,760 just as much as I think about global competition, just as much 381 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,320 as I think about public health and protecting communities. 382 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:16,600 We want a competitive America. We want an America that works 383 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,800 for everyone. And we all know that the best 384 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:25,480 technologies tied to our markets, tied to American 385 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,360 ingenuity, we cannot run anyone in the world. 386 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,840 And we can do that without sacrificing our community. 387 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,920 So when we talk to Democrats and Republicans and we talk about 388 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,120 energy and infrastructure, I think we have to talk about the 389 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:43,880 fragility of our energy grid, our water infrastructure, and 390 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,520 what that does to us as a nation. 391 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,120 And then we have to think about what are the solutions. 392 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,480 And if you look at the cost effective solutions, the most 393 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,200 efficient solutions, the solutions that are winning the 394 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,800 data around the world, they're the solutions that just happen 395 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,480 to fall into our category of being called clean. 396 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:07,240 You can have that as a lead headline for climate, you can 397 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,280 have it as a lead headline for communities, or you can have it 398 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,960 as a lead headline for global competitiveness. 399 00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:15,440 I believe it's all three. Well. 400 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,000 Thank you for being here, your moral clarity is truly 401 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,280 inspiring, so such a pleasure to have you. 402 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,560 Thank you. Thanks, Michael. 403 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:33,720 Thank you. That was Michael Regan, recorded 404 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,160 live at the UNC Clean Tech Summit. 405 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:39,200 One more episode left in this series. 406 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:44,880 Dan Sugar, founder and CEO of Next Power, one of the people 407 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,760 who has done more to scale solar development globally than almost 408 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,680 anyone alive. And don't forget, if you want to 409 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:57,680 hear our conversations with John Shoka and Ahmad Shatila from the 410 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,360 same summit, those are on Suncast. 411 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,000 Go find Nico wherever you get your podcasts.