1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,200 I think you have to name it after him because the only thing 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:05,440 he responds to his plays to his vanity. 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:10,200 So I would name it the President Donald J Trump offshore wind 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:15,320 farm and I would paint all the wind turbines gold and he would 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:16,239 love it. That's. 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:25,200 All hello. My name is. 7 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,720 Jiggershaw and I'm a clean energy entrepreneur. 8 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:31,440 And I'm Jamie Nolan, a clean energy communications executive. 9 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,120 And this is Energy Empire you're. 10 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,920 You're an executive. I know well a longer he dinged 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,560 me because he told me that he's been getting feedback that I am 12 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:47,440 underselling myself and not adequately describing my 13 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:49,960 expertise. So I'm working on that. 14 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,280 I'm just saying you're a baller. Thank you, I appreciate it. 15 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,800 We got to speak at Climate Week. That was so, so, so cool. 16 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,720 That was I don't do a lot of speaking engagements, so that 17 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,680 was really fun for me. Oh, for folks who missed it, we 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:10,160 had to improvise a session and I interviewed Jamie on stage about 19 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:15,080 all of her accomplishments and how she, you know, really 20 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,560 schemed to get the loan programs office back to its stellar 21 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,240 reputation that it deserves, which she did brilliantly. 22 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:29,040 And the audience ate it all up. They had never heard this type 23 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,720 of interview and they were like all about it. 24 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,040 Well, it was me alongside a lot of amazing colleagues at LPO. 25 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,240 It was definitely a joint effort, but it was fun because I 26 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,720 have been to so many conferences and trade shows with you. 27 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,680 And it's really funny because people will queue up to talk to 28 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,480 you, and Jigger will have like 10 people, like, standing in 29 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,160 line when he's like, on the trade show floor at a big 30 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,440 conference like Mari Plus. And we stepped off the stage 31 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,320 from Climate Week and people were queued up to talk to me. 32 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,320 So that was fun for me. And so thank you. 33 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,000 So much I had to be your body. Person I had to be like, you 34 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:09,039 need to wait in line like she's talking. 35 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:10,840 To somebody, it was like the roles were reversed. 36 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,640 It was hilarious. I really enjoyed it. 37 00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:16,000 So thank you to the DC Climate Week organizers for inviting us 38 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,640 and looking forward to, to doing more things like that and seeing 39 00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:23,120 the the climate and clean energy community in DC and how much 40 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,680 bigger it's gotten. And it's just cool that we can 41 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,240 support an event like that, a whole week of events. 42 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,840 So today I'm excited we are having our this is our first 43 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,560 episode that will be really focused on wind energy. 44 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,240 Wind energy has been the OG right, because it was cost 45 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,680 effective in the late 90s. It had its big heyday in the 46 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:47,240 late 70s with all those wind farms that were built out in 47 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:52,120 California and, you know, solar was sort of too expensive. 48 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:53,600 And so folks were focused on wind. 49 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,680 George W Bush famously had a wind mandate in Texas when he 50 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,240 was governor. And so he's been around and 51 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,440 people like Sandy Rice Key and, you know, Mike Hoss and you 52 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,920 know, Michael Skelly and all those folks come out of that 53 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,640 time and it's amazing to see what they've accomplished. 54 00:03:12,640 --> 00:03:15,960 I think over 10% of all of the electricity in the United States 55 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,920 now comes from wind power. And when you look at the region 56 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:24,120 from North Dakota all the way down to the Panhandle of Texas, 57 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:28,080 it's like 30 to 50% of all of the power in those states. 58 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:31,480 And so it's massive. It really is. 59 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,920 I really, I don't know if people really have captured that. 60 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:36,760 I don't, I don't know if that's really understood. 61 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,880 You know, I think a lot of Americans, you know, you plug in 62 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,240 your toaster, you don't think about where the power is coming 63 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,360 from. You certainly, I think if you 64 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:48,040 were to pull Americans on their, their guess about where all that 65 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,160 power comes from, I bet they'd be surprised to find out that 66 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,000 wind makes up such a, a large portion. 67 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,280 I know I'm back when I started in this sector back in like 68 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:01,920 2010, wind dwarfed solar. I mean, solar was tiny. 69 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,800 We were all working to try and get wind projects built. 70 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,840 You know, one of my first big campaigns was working on the 71 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,680 offshore wind campaign in Maryland to just even set up the 72 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,120 policy mechanism so that offshore wind was just even a 73 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,760 power generation possibility for the state. 74 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:19,560 But it was really cool to talk to Sandy. 75 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:23,680 I'm really excited to share this interview and hear more from him 76 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,240 about what it took to to get the US wind power industry to where 77 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,200 it is today. Oh yeah, no, it it was a great 78 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,280 conversation. And it's one of those things 79 00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:37,400 were not only did we really cover, you know, his wind power 80 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,040 days, but the fact that he was early to figuring out community 81 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:47,240 relations and marketing, I think was a super interesting thing. 82 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,640 And I think the other piece that I want to dive into and was 83 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,920 amazing was like, he really has been a fixture of the 84 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:55,600 Charlottesville community, right? 85 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,480 I mean, when you think about, you know, all the room energy 86 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,400 companies are from. Charlottesville, it's because. 87 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:04,560 Sandy was in Charlottesville. He attracted them all to work at 88 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:07,200 Apex and then they spun out of Apex and started awesome 89 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:08,800 companies. Let's talk to him. 90 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,600 Energy Empire is powered by octopus energy. 91 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,600 I hear it at every conference. We need more generation, more 92 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,240 transmission. You're saying we don't? 93 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,400 We do, but we're ignoring something faster. 94 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:32,800 Sitting in people's homes and EV is basically a 60 kWh battery 95 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,280 idle most of the day across the US. 96 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,800 That's gigawatts we're not using. 97 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,880 Utilities have pitched demand response for 20 years and it 98 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,280 still hasn't scaled. Why is this time different? 99 00:05:46,840 --> 00:05:49,240 Because we're not asking customers to change behavior, 100 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,360 we're automating it. The grid treats customers like 101 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,680 demand. They're actually distributed 102 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,360 infrastructure. Connect those assets and you can 103 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,320 shift load overnight at scale. So the constraint isn't 104 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,960 technology, it's. Coordination the solutions 105 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,160 already deployed, we just need to use it. 106 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,600 Thanks, Natasha. That was Natasha Crowe, vice 107 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,920 president of marketing and comms for Octopus North America, if 108 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,000 that's the version of the Grid you want. 109 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,080 Check them out, the link is in the show notes. 110 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,960 Sandy, welcome. I'm not sure that I've ever 111 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,120 heard you on a podcast before. Is this your like first? 112 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,760 Not my first but I I have not done many. 113 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,600 OK. Well, I'm so glad to have 114 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,280 figured out a way to get you on. You have been building wind 115 00:06:44,280 --> 00:06:48,640 projects, I don't know, since like 2000, maybe before 116 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,640 investors thought of it as an asset class. 117 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:53,280 Is that right? Is it 2000? 118 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,400 Yes. So when did you believe wind 119 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,360 power would actually become a business? 120 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,960 I was living in the Czech Republic for a couple of years 121 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:03,800 and living in Germany for a few years and the Eastern Europe 122 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,600 countries, the the snow can be sort of black. 123 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,880 You know, it can, the pollution is, is, is really you can, you 124 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:13,560 could feel it back then especially. 125 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:17,160 And the thought was if I could ever put my career in a way 126 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,200 where I could be sort of applying myself towards, you 127 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:25,280 know, pollution mitigation. That was the big, a big idea. 128 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,760 And you know, spooling forward in in the year 2000, there was a 129 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,880 death in the family and I sort of had a career, but I wanted to 130 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,400 step back and, you know, evaluate what to do next. 131 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:42,960 And I've been the CEO and CFO of a software company and didn't 132 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:44,920 really have any background in, in wind. 133 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:49,560 But I remembered, you know, sort of what, what would I really 134 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,880 want to focus my life on? Where, where would I want to 135 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,200 have impact? And I came upon, you know, clean 136 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:56,680 energy. It's clean energy would be a 137 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,200 place where, where I could really address the issue of 138 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,600 pollution. And so at the time, solar was 139 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,480 way too expensive, but when really presented itself as a 140 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,240 solution, it was competitive. And were you already in 141 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,160 Charlottesville? Yeah, I was in Charlottesville 142 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,400 at that time. OK, so you built Green Light 143 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:20,560 Energy, sold it, and then you started Apex Clean Energy and 144 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,240 scaled that up. So what did you learn the first 145 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,120 time around that made the second company scale faster? 146 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:33,360 It's it's about the team really. By the time we started Apex, we 147 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,280 really knew who to hire and we really invested in the team. 148 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,440 We recruited Mark Goodwin as the COO. 149 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:47,280 He came from EDPR and formerly Horizon and he really knew what 150 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:48,920 scaling a company looked like, right. 151 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:53,560 And, and so our, one of our key strategies was just bring all of 152 00:08:53,560 --> 00:08:57,320 the key functions in house. So that's interconnection, GIS, 153 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,880 legal, financing, engineering, construction, everything. 154 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,640 And our, our other big strategy what, what we sort of figured 155 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:06,960 out was we wanted to invest in the energy resource. 156 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,600 So it was all about building value by understanding we are in 157 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,960 the energy business, not in the project development business. 158 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:19,080 And and so that that meant creating a portfolio of assets 159 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,480 that were as big enough and that you really put money behind it 160 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,040 such that you could be building consistently because that's the 161 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,720 only way to have a business is to have consistent revenue. 162 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,960 And this is an industry fraud with risk and, and are are real, 163 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,160 you know, core competency was was just squeezing down that 164 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,560 risk and, and figuring out how to how to survive in an 165 00:09:41,560 --> 00:09:43,800 environment that was very, very challenging. 166 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,600 Yeah, I remember meeting Zelka and Mike Skelly way back in the 167 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,360 day because we were backed by Goldman Sachs. 168 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,680 And I remember, like, early wind power projects, you know, 169 00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:59,680 required convincing land owners, electric utilities, banks, 170 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,760 regulators about the sector's potential all at once. 171 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,160 I mean, did you find any one of those parties harder than the 172 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,120 other? I mean, you can sit down with a 173 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,600 landowner, you can work with a utility. 174 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,960 The regulators have their processes, but I'd say banks are 175 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,120 where the big hurdle. Specifically, how do you 176 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,120 monetize the tax credits that Congress wanted to give you? 177 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:29,760 So if you think about it, you know, these transactions are 178 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:32,720 huge and you're getting all these credits and you're never 179 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,840 going to be able to use them all if you're if you're a developer. 180 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,560 So you bring in a bank and the bank takes the role of 181 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,280 essentially lending their balance sheet so that they can 182 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,960 absorb the tax credits and they pay for that upfront. 183 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:49,760 And that's how you use project financing to to get it built. 184 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,600 Well, here's a fun question. What is your favorite win 185 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,360 project you ever developed and where is it? 186 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,040 What makes it special? For example, when I was in 187 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,680 Hawaii over Christmas and my husband and I had just arrived 188 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:07,120 and we just rented a car and we're like driving over, you 189 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,840 know, through this mountain range and then suddenly there, 190 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,360 there's these wind turbines and they're huge. 191 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,960 And I was just like, like, sometimes like these, these 192 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,760 projects are really visually stunning and they, they really 193 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,160 just stick with you. Like obviously I was immediately 194 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,720 like taking pictures and I, I'm sure I, I actually didn't look 195 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,680 up what the project was, but it's beautiful on the island of 196 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,080 Oahu. So what's your favorite project? 197 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:31,960 Like make it real for our audience. 198 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,440 Like tell them where it is and what it's like and and what's 199 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,000 special about it. That's an easy question. 200 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:42,800 My first and favorite wind farm was Elk River Wind Farm. 201 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,320 It's the landowner we got to know right from the outset was 202 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:54,160 Pete Farrell was in Kansas and 150 MW project and and had had 203 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:56,560 many challenges took about five years. 204 00:11:56,560 --> 00:11:59,360 And so I guess you you learn to love the things you work hardest 205 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,960 for. Is it still operating? 206 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,520 Yes. 150 megawatts was large at that time. 207 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,880 It was, yeah. I mean, today, I guess that's 208 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,440 probably on the smaller end of what folks work on, right. 209 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,600 But when you and I, I remember you and I talked a lot when I 210 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:20,080 was at Generate Capital, because in 2015, you bet the farm on 211 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,920 wind power when the tax credits had run out, right? 212 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,400 And Congress was deliberating as to whether they wanted to extend 213 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,360 the tax credit. And you really made a big bet, 214 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,200 right? You bought up other people's 215 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,960 development projects when they were less short, right? 216 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,760 And So what made you so confident to make those big bets 217 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:41,920 in 2015? It's a great question. 218 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,000 I mean, I think that there are so many positive attributes to 219 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:52,560 the, to the asset class and I just, I, I think that the 220 00:12:52,560 --> 00:12:55,320 industry even at that point was, was too big to fail. 221 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,480 You know, GE was a player, GE is a picking, you know, U.S. 222 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,080 company. It's not as if I had any, you 223 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,160 know, anybody's ear in Congress and, and people were whispering, 224 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,000 but we certainly heard, you know, reassurances that, you 225 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,080 know, people working hard at it. And frankly, you know, it was a, 226 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,000 a calculated risk. We saw that a lot of our peers 227 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,400 and, and smaller players had run out of money and, and really 228 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,240 needed somebody to, to pick up the, the cost of carrying the 229 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:23,960 projects and, and pushing them forward. 230 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:29,880 And we were, you know, of the mindset that this was the right 231 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:31,640 thing to do. Certainly, you know, incredible 232 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,640 value and we got a lot of them built. 233 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,000 Yeah, you did. So far, listeners, you may not 234 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,320 be familiar with the stats around wind power. 235 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,040 What's the state of the industry today like? 236 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,640 How much power does the industry produce nationally, and how has 237 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,280 it grown since you first started out? 238 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:50,560 The growth has been near exponential. 239 00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:53,320 I mean, it's, it's, it's a perfect S curve. 240 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,240 Recently wind hasn't been growing as fast. 241 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:00,840 And I'll say that's in in part because solar and batteries are 242 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,480 a little bit stealing the show. They are easier to develop and 243 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:09,640 faster and not quite cheaper. But when does is, you know, it's 244 00:14:09,680 --> 00:14:12,800 really applicable in the best spots and and when it's when you 245 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,480 get those spots, it's unbeatable. 246 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:19,320 And it certainly has advantages in the winter time or obviously, 247 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,480 you know, it produces power 24/7. 248 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,000 But I think it's bigger than the solar industry. 249 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:27,960 I think solar is sort of approaching 8% of total 250 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,560 electricity production in the US and I think winds at like 12 or 251 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:32,920 13, right? Correct. 252 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,800 Yeah, from a market share standpoint and the two of them 253 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,480 together are bigger than coal. Yeah, super exciting. 254 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,200 Kind of a stock and a flow thing. 255 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,000 The, the, I think the flow of solar projects coming online is, 256 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,640 is bigger, you know, in any given year these days, then then 257 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,120 when. So when was once the leading 258 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,240 edge of clean energy? I know when I started working in 259 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,960 in this sector, that's what everyone was excited about then. 260 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:00,760 And solar was so tiny at the time. 261 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:05,160 This was in like 2010 or so, around the time they get started 262 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,200 today. Solar and batteries, as you 263 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,000 mentioned, often get more excitement. 264 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,400 They seem to have a lot of the political momentum and certainly 265 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,480 more capital attention. So what do you think has changed 266 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,760 that has led to that shift? It's economics, it's the cost 267 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:23,080 curves accelerating. And again, when does, if, if 268 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,600 you're going to be in the business of, you know, bringing 269 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,280 new power plants online when power takes longer and costs 270 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:33,360 quite a bit more and you need a lot more engineering. 271 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:38,760 And one of the big, you know, things you need to do is study 272 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,560 the wind for, for a couple of years in order to get a really 273 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,680 firm understanding of the wind resource and, and to underwrite 274 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,680 that resource. So, you know, it's consequently 275 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,680 solar is easier for folks to develop. 276 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,960 It's for the most part applicable more across the 277 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,040 country. And, and as such, you know, as 278 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,440 soon as it started becoming economic it it really got a big 279 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,800 lift. One of the things that you and I 280 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:08,160 talked about and then Mark Goodwin also I think talked 281 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:12,080 about was the fact that you guys really took community engagement 282 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,400 seriously early on, right? You put together big budgets for 283 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,240 each project. As soon as you knew this project 284 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,240 was likely to move forward, you got in early. 285 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,680 You met all the political folks there. 286 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,920 You put together ad campaigns, right? 287 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:30,280 Who championed that within Apex? And you know, and the follow up 288 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,760 question is like why did so much of the rest of the industry 289 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:36,560 treat that as optional? That's a great question. 290 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,840 I think, you know, we had been burned. 291 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:40,720 It's not as if we got it right immediately. 292 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,800 Maybe we we knew from from earlier years how, how tough it 293 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,120 could be. But the, the person who led that 294 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:50,840 effort at at Apex and ended up heading up a team of like 14 295 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:55,760 people was Davi Wilson. So she came from a background of 296 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,600 organizing, community organizing, and she brought a 297 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,400 lot of skills about understanding, you know, power 298 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:05,040 maps and who understand, you know, who across the community 299 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,880 is going to be the most influential and how to engage 300 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,319 early, you know, tell your story. 301 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:17,880 And, and she had a way, she, she had a map that that that showed 302 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,400 it was a really sophisticated way of assessing the risk that 303 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:26,000 any given community might really not like the idea of a wind farm 304 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:27,880 and not be interested in hosting 1. 305 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:33,880 And that helped us calibrate how we would invest in order to, you 306 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:38,280 know, try to match in most cases, the fossil fuel interests 307 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,320 who were who were spreading misinformation. 308 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:45,560 And, and it was a real political battle in many communities in 309 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,520 these days that's still going on. 310 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,400 Which brings us to our a great next point, which is that 311 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,040 President Trump famously hates wind power. 312 00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:57,240 He is like, talk about community engagement. 313 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,680 Somebody in Scotland really needed to get to him. 314 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,760 They needed to power map that project and they needed to 315 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:07,160 neutralize him because no one hates wind power more than the 316 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,080 president. And he's even taking the 317 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,880 extraordinary measure of paying multiple companies now because 318 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,080 there were more headlines yesterday that he has now. 319 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,320 He's now paying off additional companies to stop developing 320 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,400 offshore wind in this country. So if you had two minutes to 321 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,800 sell him on wind power and try to change his mind, what would 322 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,680 you say? My I don't think you can reason 323 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:36,160 with his convictions. I believe he's dug in and it's 324 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,320 probably for more reasons than than Scotland. 325 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:43,680 Well, you know what I would say, I'd say, Mr. President, I just 326 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:49,000 bought that wind farm and put a bunch of dynamite at the, the, 327 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,640 you know, sort of foundations of each one of those towers. 328 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,840 If you push this button like, we'll blow this thing up and 329 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,720 then we'll like you just put your hatred for wind energy in 330 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,560 the rearview mirror. That would be the easiest $200 331 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:07,280 million I've ever spent. I think you have to name it 332 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,840 after him because the only thing he responds to his plays to his 333 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,200 vanity. So I would name it the President 334 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,960 Donald J Trump Offshore Wind Farm, and I would paint all the 335 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,720 wind turbines gold and he would love it. 336 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:27,480 That's all mine. Yeah, I guess on that front, 337 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:32,040 Sandy, like is the anti wind fervor mostly an American 338 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,200 problem or have you actually seen that in Europe and other 339 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,400 places? There's push back all over the 340 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,800 world, but I don't think it's nearly as strong as in this 341 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,440 country. I mean, I'm interested in your, 342 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,000 you know, your perspective. I I never really tried to 343 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,120 develop wind outside of North America. 344 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,080 Yeah, I think you're right. I think that in general, there 345 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:55,200 is a level of minority power in the United States that you don't 346 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:58,840 have in other places. So like here, 20 very vocal 347 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:04,160 people can shut down a project when 98% of the community 348 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,560 actually wants the property tax revenue and, you know, and all 349 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,520 the other revenue that comes in. And those 20 people can make it 350 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,360 feel like, you know, everybody's against the project. 351 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:18,000 And and I find that whole thing to be weird. 352 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,920 It's weird and they're really working against themselves, 353 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,160 right? Because these are power plants, 354 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,960 they have very little impact. You can farm all around them. 355 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,520 It's it's it's then the land owners really want to do it. 356 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,400 So often times there's 40 to 200 land owners that are ready to 357 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:39,080 start collecting royalty checks and, and then it gets ripped out 358 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,160 from under them, usually after years of work. 359 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,840 It's really a shame. And that, you know, the, the, 360 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,520 the schools, the fire trucks, the bridges that you know, 361 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,160 aren't going to be repaired because there's no big taxpayer 362 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,080 parachuting in. I mean the places that get these 363 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,160 wind farms they have and solar they, they really get 364 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,040 significant benefits and then millions of dollars, sometimes 365 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:02,560 10s of millions of dollars a year. 366 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:07,520 Well, though you've stepped back from the day-to-day at Apex and, 367 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:13,600 and you and I reconnected after I bought my house here in DC You 368 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,480 know, I got one of the first houses that I think got a Pearl 369 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,320 certification. And so that's when I realized 370 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,480 you were part of Pearl, another Charlottesville company, And it 371 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,880 was so informative. So for listeners ever heard 372 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,240 about it, what problem is Pearl solving? 373 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,720 Wow. I mean, there is just a massive 374 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,360 blind spot in the real estate industry. 375 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:36,800 If you think about buying a car, you go up and look at the window 376 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,880 sticker, you'll see the safety ratings, you'll understand what 377 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:43,520 comfort features it has and be all listed there for you. 378 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,800 You're going to understand about operating efficiency, right? 379 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,920 You know, miles per gallon. You're going to see like what 380 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:51,440 fuel it uses. You're going to understand the 381 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,160 energy that's powering it, right. 382 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,920 Is it is it gasoline or diesel or electric? 383 00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,640 All of that's right there in front of you when you buy a 384 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:02,920 house, that information is there, but it's you often have 385 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,760 to look for it. It's not put in one place for 386 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,080 you. So Pearl actually moved away 387 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,400 from just certifying houses because we are only addressing a 388 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,640 very small part of the market when we are certifying the best 389 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:20,920 houses. But over like 9 years, Pearl 390 00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:24,560 developed very, very sophisticated, you know, using 391 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,400 building science, just a way to score the performance of a home. 392 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,480 There's hundreds of data points about any home and Pearl has 393 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:39,200 collected all of them and has ranked homes and scored them by 394 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,480 their performance. So the Pearl has a product 395 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,840 called the Pearl Score and that's an acronym for, you know, 396 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,760 SCORE. So safety, comfort, operations, 397 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,520 resiliency and energy. And energy is not efficiency. 398 00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:00,400 Energy is like, have you invested in energy assets? 399 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,160 Do you have solar panels? Do you have a home battery in 400 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:05,560 your basement? Is your house ready for for an 401 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,200 EV? All kinds of things related to 402 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,320 essentially a whole new asset class that that consumers can 403 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,400 choose and they are choosing real estate and industry hadn't 404 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,400 and still doesn't really have a way to to assess them. 405 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:26,840 While Apparel Score takes each one of those pillars and and 406 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,160 ranks your home based on those and then gives you an overall 407 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,440 number that's comparable across houses. 408 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,480 I love this concept so much. I sold my house. 409 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:41,360 I sold a house in DC eight years ago and had a solar array on the 410 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:45,680 roof and definitely did not feel a solar array that was paid off 411 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:51,080 and did not feel that I earned the value of that or you know, 412 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,960 solar system back. Now the solar incentives in DC 413 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,480 are so good that that system had already paid for itself because 414 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,880 the S RAC market was so strong plus the net metering and it 415 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,240 penciled out. But here in Virginia, where 416 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,320 Dominion is my utility company, that's not the case. 417 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:12,880 So essentially, I mean, I put the solar on my roof because 418 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,160 that follows my personal beliefs that I want that solar energy 419 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,400 system to exist. But I did so with the assumption 420 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:24,840 that I may not get that value back when I sell this home in 421 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,720 like, say, 10 years or so. And this is the experience for 422 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,160 so many homeowners. Like, homeowners could spend so 423 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,840 much money on insulation, solar, efficient HVAC, batteries, and 424 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,280 often get little to no credit when they're selling. 425 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,000 And you're trying to change that story. 426 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,640 So why do you think the market has been so slow to value 427 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,400 efficiency? The information is buried. 428 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,000 It's you know, the information about the investments you've 429 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,760 made in the efficiency is buried. 430 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,480 The energy audits and other contractor invoices, other 431 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:59,520 documentation you might have is sort of disconnected completely 432 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,880 from the transaction itself unless you hand somebody a 433 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,840 binder, and even then it's not part of the listing. 434 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,840 And also, I just want to say there's a very important nuance 435 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,360 that that Pearl's picking up here. 436 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,920 Efficiency is hard for people to understand or relate to. 437 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,200 It's abstract. It's hard to get people 438 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,160 interested in a concept. What people want to hear about 439 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,440 is the benefits. So safety, comfort, operations, 440 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,680 resiliency, and, and energy assets. 441 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,320 Yeah, I'd I'd like to learn about all of those. 442 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,680 Those are things I care about and I understand. 443 00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:36,000 So that's what people value. And Earl takes those benefits 444 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,760 and and translates all the technical language and 445 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,920 everything into a scoring system. 446 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,840 And, and it's they worked with the Department of Energy and 447 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,240 National Renewable Energy Lab. They, you know, the appraisal 448 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,200 institute, the I Triple E building Performance Institute, 449 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,240 they've all come over 9 years and helped Pearl because Pearl 450 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,200 was trying to certify homes. And so when we, when we made the 451 00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,400 pivot and we, we, you know, essentially raided every home in 452 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:12,800 America, that foundation, that block is, is the engine that, 453 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,800 that, that helps people see the performance. 454 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:19,880 And we need now like the next step is, is to get, you know, 455 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,760 Realtor and Zillow and all those people to list it as part of the 456 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,240 listing. You know, they like data and, 457 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,560 and this is very legitimate, you know, data on homes. 458 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,400 And the fascinating thing is we're not going to be totally 459 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:37,240 right, right with, with all the public data that we have. 460 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:38,880 And there are hundreds of data points. 461 00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:44,400 We let the owner, homeowners look at their score, obviously 462 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,520 go to the registry and if something needs to be corrected, 463 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,520 they can, if, if they got a heat pump 6 months ago or something 464 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:52,880 that can be updated and their score will update. 465 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,520 And so it's a way to, you know, build transparency for 466 00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,880 everybody. It's not kind of not like FICO. 467 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:04,240 So in a way we are scoring homes from a lot of different 468 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,080 directions. We also, the operations piece 469 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,760 does tell you how much it cost to, we know, we estimate how 470 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,160 much it cost to operate your home over a year's time. 471 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,640 The energy point does tell you, you know, what's the net present 472 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,600 value of your solar system or the energy assets you've added, 473 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,480 you know, that you've invested in. 474 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,360 And so there's a real financial impact to the value of the home 475 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:30,240 for sure. And, and, and, but the, you 476 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,160 know, across the, the myriad of things you're looking at when 477 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,080 you're buying a home, this, this is going to stand out. 478 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,760 And the executives at Pearl, we've, we've got people from 479 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:44,840 Rocket and Zillow and other of the, the very large industry 480 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:49,040 players who we've recruited, you know, working to bring this to 481 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:50,800 market. We're sort of an alpha stage 482 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,200 right now. You can go now on to the Pearl 483 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,280 score.com and put in your address and you'll see, you 484 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:00,920 know, you'll see your, your Pearl score and can can go to 485 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,520 the registry. I'm I'm very excited about this. 486 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:10,680 I actually just got an eco city home award from my the city of 487 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:12,960 Alexandria. I and I'm about to put my sign 488 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:14,720 in the front yard like I want my credit. 489 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:18,320 So I want my Pearl swore Sandy. So I'm going to go get that, but 490 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,880 I also want to know if if homes start being priced fairly on 491 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,840 energy performance, like I really do believe it's such an 492 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,680 important factor. Does Pearl have evidence or like 493 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,080 data to show that this will change consumer behavior in a 494 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,520 meaningful way? Please say yes. 495 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,160 We believe so, yes. The certification certainly did. 496 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:44,200 So when Jigger got his certification for his efficient 497 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,000 home, the research showed over the years we could, we could 498 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,400 demonstrate, you know, empirically that that homes that 499 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,800 had certification sold for more 5% more was the the figure. 500 00:28:55,320 --> 00:29:00,760 And I think that again, since we're not focusing on the words 501 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,000 efficiency, we're really ranking homes based on the safety and 502 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,120 the comfort. And just to bring this home for 503 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:11,000 a second, if you haven't a gas stove, the safety of your home 504 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,280 is the, the rankings going to go down, right? 505 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,200 Because the air quality, you know, people are concerned about 506 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:17,680 air quality and they should be, if you don't have the 507 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,240 ventilation, right? That can really harm you and 508 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:26,080 your kids. 40% of homes that have gas stoves have children 509 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,720 with asthma or, or conditions of some type. 510 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,600 So this is a a really real thing that that we're capturing and it 511 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,000 and it, it spans all types of categories. 512 00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,800 It would be great to get to a place where you know, this sort 513 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,720 of Pearl score is a fixed every home, just like you have square 514 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,000 footage or school district comps. 515 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,640 I wanted to transition to communications. 516 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,280 I mean, you've really argued that we should stop saying 517 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:59,960 energy transition and start saying a replacement, right? 518 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:02,960 What's the difference? I mean, not going to be militant 519 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,960 about it. I say transition all the time as 520 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:10,080 well, but I think it's sort of more direct if you think about 521 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:16,160 what's happening, the entire energy industry is going to 522 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:20,840 change and we are heading to a place where we're just not going 523 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,080 to be using fuels anymore. And so you think of everything 524 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:29,360 that that burns something like cars or furnaces or the whole 525 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,360 sector needs to to swap everything out. 526 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,960 And these are multi trillion dollar markets. 527 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:40,160 And, and there have been companies like Tesla and many 528 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:43,920 others who see the car market and they say we've got a better 529 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:46,880 type of car and they bring it to the consumers and put it in 530 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:49,120 front of consumers and consumers can make that choice. 531 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,400 Once a consumer chooses an electric car, they've kind of 532 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,560 replaced their car. They, they haven't transitioned 533 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,280 per say, you know, transition suggests that they're doing it 534 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,600 slowly. Just the, the speed of the 535 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,320 change as well is, is I think more along the lines of of 536 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,200 replacement. So if you think about who gets 537 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,760 to choose what our future will be, it's, it's not the demand 538 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,200 that people selling stuff, It's, it's the consumers, both 539 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:17,920 businesses and private individuals. 540 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,680 And they're all leaning in and the growth curves all show that, 541 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,840 you know, people are choosing electric cars and, and they're, 542 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:29,480 they're choosing solar for their homes. 543 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,960 And those two choices, you no longer need to ask permission, 544 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,840 right? Like 20 years ago, you could go 545 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,000 to your utility and say, boy, I wish you'd do some, some clean 546 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:40,680 energy, but you wouldn't get very far. 547 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,080 This is a totally different game. 548 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,800 It's, it's like moving from Blackberries to iPhones. 549 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,320 It can happen really fast. And, and I think obviously the, 550 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,200 the war that we're fighting now in Iran has a lot of people, you 551 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,760 know, sort of looking very closely at electric cars because 552 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,200 they are now the more predictable, you know, stable, 553 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:09,680 you know, source of, of transportation. 554 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,520 It's, it's, it's scary to see your gas prices, you know, going 555 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,640 up. It's, it's a real economic 556 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,840 hardship globally and electric cars now are just so much 557 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,080 better. And they're, they're at a point 558 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,840 where they're actually at par or cheaper than the, the upfront 559 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,200 cost of the ICE car. So you one hand you're paying 560 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,440 the same or less for the car, then the operating costs are 561 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,360 much lower and and you're not paying for fuel, right? 562 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,480 Especially if you've got solar panels on your on your roof. 563 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,600 Yep, I've never I've never appreciated my solar array more. 564 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,200 I just charged my car for free. I just drive around for free. 565 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,720 I like never. I forget about gas stations 566 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,760 except when I need a snack. Yeah, snack stations. 567 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,200 Sex papers exactly. That's what they are now in my 568 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,960 family. People ask me like, how long 569 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,680 does it take you to charge your, you know, your electric car? 570 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:01,440 And I'm like. I mean I. 571 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,320 Don't even think about it. I don't know what's in my 572 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,240 driveway. Plug it in like we don't. 573 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:06,160 I don't. Have time? 574 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,480 Charging in my in dominion in Virginia yet although please, 575 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:12,560 please add that I would love to have that. 576 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,680 I don't even think about it. I don't even think about it. 577 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,520 I can't even tell you how how like the Peace of Mind 578 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,400 associated with that. But Sandy, I love what you're 579 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,800 saying about like basically you're, you're suggesting that 580 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,960 the bottleneck for scaling all of these solutions is not the 581 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,120 technology, it's permission. And that's certainly something 582 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,280 that Jigger and I talk about all the time. 583 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,760 So can you talk a little bit about that where you see that 584 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,320 theme of, of permission being most valid? 585 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,840 Is it like in terms of permitting, politics, culture, 586 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,880 utility, incentives, all of the above? 587 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:51,440 Where are we on that topic? I mean, it's all of the above. 588 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,280 We've talked about permitting. There's a real like predatory 589 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,920 delay. You can credit Alex Stefan for 590 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,680 that quote for that terming. But the the fossil fuel industry 591 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:03,200 is making it hard to get permits. 592 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,560 The politics are absolutely challenging these days. 593 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:14,040 And culturally, you know, I think climate is bearing down on 594 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,040 the fossil fuel industry in the sense that every day we're all, 595 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,400 you know, the question is being presented to us, when are we 596 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,560 going to, you know, when are we going to respond to this? 597 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,560 And are we just going to drift? And I think that when society 598 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,679 decides to act on climate, it'll be a real paradigm shift. 599 00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:35,600 And that's I think culturally what's what's needed, the 600 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,639 politics of today is, you know, it's noise, it's incumbents 601 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:43,120 resisting change. It's divisive politics, it's 602 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:47,239 denial, it's misinformation, it's chaotic and there's a lot 603 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:50,239 of uncertainty and that's stalling decisions, that's 604 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,080 keeping society from moving forward and seeing what really 605 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:58,240 needs to be done. And and so that discord and and 606 00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:01,320 strife is holding us back. You know, the old script is 607 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,400 we've been, we've we've had a diet of bread and water, right? 608 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:08,320 The old script is we're dependent. 609 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,960 The problems too big futures, Grimm, there's clean energy 610 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:19,040 myths, climate denial. We need like a new narrative to 611 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:24,640 confront the doom and the gloom and the fact is and and not many 612 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,240 people know this unless you're in the energy industry. 613 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,920 We're making huge progress and we're dominating the like new 614 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,440 additions of clean energy globally. 615 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:39,520 You know, over 90% of what's new capacity coming online for 616 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,360 utility scale is solar or when 90%, you know, there are 617 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:50,120 solutions like EVs and and you know, huge public support. 618 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:54,160 And so the trends are favorable. I just say that the narrative 619 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,880 then if we're talking about politics and culture, the 620 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,920 narratives missing, we need people to understand that their 621 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,280 choices matter, that this is actually working. 622 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,280 The industries done decades of work and and the products are 623 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,240 here. Well, we're certainly in that 624 00:36:09,240 --> 00:36:12,080 moment today. I mean, I just, I think with 625 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:16,080 what's happening in Iran, it is very clear to everybody around 626 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,840 the world that like we need to start scaling, right? 627 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,760 You saw that China, China's exports went up 21% just in the 628 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,800 month of March alone versus February. 629 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,160 And so I think they exported 2 and a half million cars last 630 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:30,840 year. They're going to export almost 7 631 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:33,480 million cars, electric vehicles this year, right? 632 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,440 And so I do think in the areas where it's obvious solar, 633 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,200 battery storage, EVs, you're going to see this massive scale 634 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,080 up this year. I wonder, though, what 635 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,400 advantages fossil fuels still have in your mind that the clean 636 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,160 energy people underestimate. Obviously you're not going to 637 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,760 power your Boeing 747 with solar panels right now. 638 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,920 Definitely not. And the advantages they have, I 639 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,560 think it's just goes back to influence. 640 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,600 It's the last, it's the last thing they have. 641 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,880 They've lost the the battle of physics, they've lost the battle 642 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,080 of economics, they're losing in the markets. 643 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,600 And at this point, you know, somebody should call the game. 644 00:37:11,720 --> 00:37:15,520 They are losing market share and and it's time to stop, you know, 645 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,640 fighting progress, I would say, but they. 646 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,120 Well, China does feel like they're trying to call the game, 647 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,560 so it does feel like there's somebody in there. 648 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,600 You've got to admit it's like we've got the electron sorted, 649 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,880 but not the molecule, right? I mean, we still, like you 650 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,080 mentioned jet planes. That's where my mind immediately 651 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:33,680 goes. I mean, I know we were trying 652 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,160 really hard to get some work done on sustainable aviation 653 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:41,440 fuels back when we were at LPO, but that it just realistically 654 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,000 the technology it's, it's not there. 655 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,840 It hasn't scaled yet, right? And then the other thing is the 656 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,680 biggest accelerating use of fossil fuels is in the 657 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,840 production of plastics and it goes up and up and up every 658 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,440 year. So I mean, I think that we've 659 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,160 got electrons sorted. I think we have so much more to 660 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,320 do on the molecule. And So what do you say about 661 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,800 that, Sandy, in terms of what what needs to happen there? 662 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,520 What do you see as a trajectory in terms of replacement when 663 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,640 we're looking at that that kind of area specifically? 664 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,480 Those areas are tough. The products are coming, but 665 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,720 they're not as far along as the electric sector for sure. 666 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,840 And I and I think that it's not an area that I have a lot of 667 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,000 expertise. But the other type of energy 668 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:35,000 that we're all using a lot of is just food, how we feed ourselves 669 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,280 and the, the progress there is staggering fermentation and, and 670 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:44,720 cultured meats and all kinds of food products that in some cases 671 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:46,720 you're actually already consuming because they're, 672 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,320 they're not coming at you as a, as a consumer. 673 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:51,600 They're going into the supply chain. 674 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,400 And they're identical molecularity to other products, 675 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,720 other proteins that are, you know, might end up in your, I 676 00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:02,320 don't know, condensed milk that you're drinking at Starbucks or, 677 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,040 you know, in your, your vitamin powders or, or that type of 678 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,040 thing. So, you know, there's a lot of 679 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,400 work to do there as well. And it's an area of incredible. 680 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,520 There's a lot of progress that that could be made and and 681 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,040 people that are working hard at it. 682 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:23,360 So Sandy, I, I wanted to finish out on just your experience in 683 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,360 building a clean energy ecosystem in Charlottesville, 684 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:30,680 right? Because not only did you start 685 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,680 Apex in Charlottesville, not Houston or San Francisco, but 686 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,760 you actually invested in a lot of, you know, companies locally. 687 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,560 So let's start with like, what's so special about Charlottesville 688 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:46,880 and what advantages did that give you? 689 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,680 It's in the water, right? It's, it's Jefferson. 690 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,600 It's the ghost of Jefferson. It's a great question. 691 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,040 I mean, it's a great place to live. 692 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,720 I was born and raised here. I have accumulated, you know, a 693 00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:03,640 lot of capital over the years, building and starting and, and 694 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:07,280 selling companies. And I've always felt like it's 695 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,320 not really. It's, it's, it's the product of 696 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,440 the work of our teams and, and, and, and the, you know, 697 00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,080 attractiveness of these products and, and how much success we've 698 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:18,720 had. These have been for the most 699 00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:21,040 part, really profitable businesses. 700 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,000 And so there's, there's a lot to work with there, a lot of 701 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,680 resources. And I've been plowing it back 702 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:27,560 into, you know, climate solutions. 703 00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:31,120 And so since I'm here, I'm like, looking around the solutions, 704 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:33,840 maybe, you know, people in Charlottesville are, you know, 705 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,960 knocking on my door and saying, Hey, you know, I've got an idea. 706 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:41,120 Well, when I started S Edison in the DC area, I mean, we were the 707 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,160 only major clean energy company you could work for on the East 708 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,880 Coast. And so like we really attracted 709 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,400 the best and brightest. And you know, most of the folks 710 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,520 who we were attracting, we're getting paid on the GS schedule 711 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,400 in the DC area. And so our salaries were a lot 712 00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,240 more, you know, sort of reasonable, but also nobody 713 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:02,960 would, would be able to steal our folks, right, Because they 714 00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:04,960 didn't want to move to California. 715 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,400 Their their grandparents who live nearby, like everybody was 716 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,360 here. So like, we was great for 717 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,920 retention. I mean, we, we really lucked out 718 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:14,800 and had, you know, the best people. 719 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,840 Yeah, I mean, there's plenty of people who have left Apex and 720 00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:21,880 and started other companies in Charlottesville as well. 721 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,400 So the people are, you know, obviously key to that whole 722 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,320 ecosystem. We brought a lot of people in 723 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,680 town. A lot of people were really 724 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:32,960 thrilled to get out of the big cities. 725 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,520 They had young families, they were professionals starting out 726 00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:40,080 on their career or, or pretty well advanced and it was, you 727 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,480 know, an easy choice. So Sandy, I mean, just to finish 728 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,720 this out, I mean, you've been building extraordinary companies 729 00:41:47,720 --> 00:41:52,520 for, you know, 2 decades. You spotted wind energy early. 730 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:57,800 You have invested in, you know, sort of waved and title, you 731 00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,240 know technologies, you've obviously invested in home 732 00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:03,720 certification and seen that through. 733 00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:06,080 I mean, that's been a bit of a journey, right? 734 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,800 What opportunities are smart people still underestimating 735 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:10,200 today? I. 736 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,400 Think smart people are investing and they believe, you know that 737 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:15,680 we're going to electrify everything. 738 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:21,800 The opportunity is so big, it's possibly more approachable, you 739 00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,040 know, getting into utility scale, anything of getting into 740 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:29,600 the energy business at that scale is got more, potentially 741 00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,880 more hurdles. But the fact is that solar is 742 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,920 modular and scalable and, and it's this sort of energy 743 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,120 democracy that's just flowing all around the world. 744 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:45,000 And so homes, the distributed energy, I think has all kinds of 745 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,840 innovation, you know, ahead of it and, and, and tons of 746 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:50,520 deployment. I mean, we're just a few 747 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,440 percentage points compared to, you know, Australia's like is it 748 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,960 40%? Oh, yeah, No, I I'd say my 749 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:02,640 answer is for as large as batteries have become, it's 750 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,760 still grossly underestimated. Like I feel like batteries are 751 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,680 just going to change the world. I mean, the notion that like, I 752 00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:14,680 have an electric vehicle whose battery is so large that it 753 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,480 could power my house for a week, right. 754 00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:21,240 And I think vehicle to grid technologies are going to come 755 00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:25,000 out like next year for almost every electric vehicle. 756 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,160 And if you have a power outage, you could just plug your car 757 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,760 into the to the panel and flip a switch and just, you know, run 758 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,080 your house off your electric car. 759 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:41,840 It's just it's not how much more progress we have to deploying 760 00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:44,000 batteries. Completely. 761 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,680 And the whole transportation sector is going to lift the 762 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,440 electricity sector. It's going to add so much 763 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,520 flexibility to the grid. There's, there's a river, Amazon 764 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,520 River, of course, coming into the market, all with these huge 765 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:03,000 batteries and and they can, they can provide services to the grid 766 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,080 that that, you know, individuals would be paid for and that's 767 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,320 like a self reinforcing loop right there. 768 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,720 It's it's. Really exciting. 769 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,640 Well, Sandy, I'm just so pleased that you were able to join us to 770 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,520 Share your story with us. It really has been an 771 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:23,320 extraordinary journey and one that frankly has resulted in the 772 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:27,960 fact that every state from North Dakota to the Panhandle of Texas 773 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:33,080 is, you know, dominated by wind power production right from your 774 00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:37,480 first project in, you know, in Kansas to, you know, like the 775 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,440 fact that I think I was now over 50% wind powered. 776 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:45,520 And so just just extraordinary. Thank you for being with us. 777 00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,480 Thanks for having me. It's been, it's been a pleasure. 778 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:56,160 It's been delightful. Energy Empire is supported by 779 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,200 S2G Investments. If you haven't checked out their 780 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,600 podcast, I highly recommend it. They have a great recent episode 781 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,080 on the long term effects of the Iran war and the blockade of the 782 00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,640 Strait of Hormuz. In the episode, Sanjeev Krishna 783 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:15,600 and Franco Sullivan and Bala Nagarajan make a compelling case 784 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,120 that this disruption could be the most powerful accelerant for 785 00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:20,800 renewable energy in a generation. 786 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:25,040 And in future episodes they'll be exploring how those forces 787 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,240 are reshaping our food systems and ocean intelligence. 788 00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,920 Sound interesting? Go find the S2G podcast and 789 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:36,080 start with the global energy order has changed now what? 790 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,800 Wow, well I mean that didn't disappoint. 791 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:50,080 It is amazing how calm Sandy is for having basically started the 792 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,520 wind energy industry, the modern wind energy industry in the 793 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:54,960 United States. Calm. 794 00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:59,400 Yeah, that definitely he was. I really, really wanted to hear 795 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,880 the details about his favorite projects. 796 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,920 That's my favorite thing. I love it when we make the 797 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,720 projects real and we can really describe like what it looks like 798 00:46:07,720 --> 00:46:11,160 for and what it feels like and what it sounds like for people 799 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,760 who maybe don't live near one of these projects. 800 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,920 I love wind turbines. I am always delighted when I see 801 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:19,960 them in real life. And it's kind of like a nerdy 802 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,120 thing that I do that I will always take photos of them. 803 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,320 And it's, I'm like, oh, look, you know, I'm like excited. 804 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,440 My daughter's rolling her eyes in the back seat of the car. 805 00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:32,480 So it was really fun talking to him because he's been personally 806 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,480 responsible for getting gigawatts. 807 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,840 Gigawatts and gigawats, Yeah, big. 808 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,920 Watts and big watts of wind turbines out into our landscape. 809 00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,480 Yeah, my son makes fun of me now because he watched Back to the 810 00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,000 Future and now he's like, hey, they said jigawatts. 811 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,480 The other thing that I loved about talking to Sandy is just 812 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:56,280 how excited he is about like the Pearl score and the work he's 813 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,720 doing in Charlottesville and all the other stuff he's doing. 814 00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:01,920 And then it was just like, and then the detail that he went 815 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,400 through around the marketing and comms focus they had for each 816 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:10,560 project, like it is it crazy that everyone doesn't take that 817 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,360 stuff as seriously as he did? It's definitely refreshing 818 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:16,840 whenever you come across an executive who really gets it, 819 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:20,360 particularly on the community relations piece of how. 820 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,560 I mean, you can't skip it. The permission structure for 821 00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,960 building a large industrial project is so fragile. 822 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,920 And I think we're seeing that now with data centers that you 823 00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,920 really cannot skip that community relations component. 824 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,360 And he really understood that from the very beginning and 825 00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,520 that's one of the reasons he was such a big success. 826 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:46,160 And then as you heard, I am very, very enthusiastic about 827 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,040 the Pearl score and I will be getting one soon. 828 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,760 Oh yeah, no, it's worth it. The reports really great. 829 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,600 One other thing I wanted to highlight was he talked about 830 00:47:55,720 --> 00:47:59,040 the big bets he took in 2015 around the tax credit 831 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:00,880 expiration. I think what people don't 832 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:06,000 remember is this is the tax credit deal where Obama traded 833 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,640 oil exports for the extension of the wind and solar tax credits. 834 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,720 So it was a big deal. If you remember, during that 835 00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:15,480 period of time, all of the environmental groups were 836 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:20,440 against extending the solar and wind tax credits in exchange for 837 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,680 the oil export ban being lifted, right? 838 00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:28,080 And so it was touch and go like people really thought that we 839 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,240 were going to lose the tax credits. 840 00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:35,440 And and it was in that like moment that Sandy went to all of 841 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,520 the wind developers that were desperate and saved their 842 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,960 projects and bought them all believing that the wind tax 843 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:43,360 credits were going to get extended. 844 00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,600 And Apex has, you know, been spending the last, you know, 10 845 00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,200 years building all those projects that he bought at the 846 00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,040 time, but like living through that moment because he was 847 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,160 trying to borrow money from Generate Capital at the time. 848 00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:58,120 And so I was in the middle of it, like, it was touch and go. 849 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,160 A lot of people were like, I don't know that this is going to 850 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:04,600 get extended because the environmental groups are all 851 00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,120 against this, right? And so Obama, like, had to go 852 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,600 over the heads of the environmental groups and say, 853 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:15,000 we're going to cut this deal. Wow, that's, I mean, that's an 854 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:17,960 amazing lore. I mean, no risk, no reward, but 855 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:19,600 that's what makes him a visionary, right? 856 00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,120 To like really have faith in that moment that that wind and 857 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,240 solar would win out in the end. Is is really extraordinary. 858 00:49:26,240 --> 00:49:31,440 And then, you know, just connecting that political deal 859 00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:35,520 back to where we are now. Imagine if we weren't exporting 860 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,960 oil and gas to the extent that we are now with the Strait of 861 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,480 Hormuz still closed and those exports have become really 862 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,120 important. And because of the actions of 863 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:48,560 President Obama, we have the domestic oil and gas industry 864 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:53,080 that we do, which is cushioning us from the worst impacts of 865 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,800 this crisis in Iran. Oh, yeah. 866 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,240 I mean, you know, like, obviously everybody is crediting 867 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,720 President Trump for all this oil and gas production. 868 00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:03,800 But I mean, a lot of the LNG was built under Obama. 869 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,880 Like Obama was like pretty pro. All the above, right? 870 00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,720 And all that's below, as it were. 871 00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:15,800 Yep, well, the Trump DOE is definitely trying to credit the 872 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:20,160 president for all of this, and I may or may not have left a 873 00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,000 comment on a LinkedIn post and the. 874 00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,240 Energy. Oh, Jamie, you could not help 875 00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:29,600 yourself. Did this man, Obama did this? 876 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,640 We're not going to credit him for that. 877 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,320 Oh my God, you cannot help yourself, Jamie. 878 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,240 I can't help it. Well, listen, I like across a 879 00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:40,760 couple of social media platforms, I had to hit the 880 00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,560 unfollow because early on I was feeling very triggered. 881 00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,720 But when I see things that are just patently untrue, there are 882 00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:50,600 limits. OK, there are limits. 883 00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,400 Yes, there really should be, but it doesn't appear that there are 884 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,520 limits right now. I feel like people just make 885 00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:01,920 stuff up in whole cloth, but, you know, but it's, it's, it's 886 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,160 getting bad out there. I mean, like gasoline went up 887 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:08,360 twice in one day in Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, to $5 a gallon. 888 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,000 And so it's it's getting bad. Wild. 889 00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,440 But again, imagine if Obama was president. 890 00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,120 Oh my God, he'd. Be freaking out. 891 00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:20,040 Everybody would be freaking out at the the level of chill. 892 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,040 We're too chill. We're too chill. 893 00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,560 We are too chill. And with that, thank you Sandy 894 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:30,000 Reisky, the Chill Wind Energy executive. 895 00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,240 Thank you so much for listening to our podcast and thank you to 896 00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:36,200 our sponsors. We are so grateful for your 897 00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,000 support. And it allows us to not just do 898 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,520 1 episode a week. Recently we've had like bonus 899 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,720 episodes regularly. So thanks to Simon and Haley for 900 00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:48,160 all their extraordinary work to get a lot of that stuff out the 901 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:52,080 door. And, you know, obviously, we 902 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:55,200 want more listeners. And so for those of you who are 903 00:51:55,480 --> 00:52:00,240 listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or YouTube, leave a 904 00:52:00,240 --> 00:52:05,240 comment, leave a review, do the things that that we need you to 905 00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:08,080 do to figure out a way to get other people out to discover the 906 00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:09,640 episode. So thank you so much.