1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,520 Hey, it's Jigger Shaw. Welcome to Energy Empire. 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:07,920 This is the third and final special episode from the UNC 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,200 Clean Tech Summit produced in partnership with Suncast. 4 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,000 Today, I'm talking with Dan Sugar. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:19,520 Dan Co founded Power Light back in 1996 and sold it to Sun Power 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:24,400 for $332 million. Then he founded Next Tracker, 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:29,000 now branded Next Power, which is shipped more than 90 gigawatts 8 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,400 of solar trackers globally. He has been at the center of 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,800 every major wave of the solar industry for nearly 30 years. 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:41,000 Dan Sugar also is an avid player of the guitar and has his own 11 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:44,640 band, which plays regularly at many solar events. 12 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:55,200 Here's our amazing conversation. I'm Nico Johnson, your host at 13 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:57,920 Suncast. But today we're doing a special 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:02,680 collaboration episode for Energy Empire Jiggers new podcast with 15 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,720 our friend Jamie Nolan. Dan is the protagonist of the 16 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,800 conversation today. And Dan, I wanted to start, 17 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,160 first of all, welcoming you back to North Carolina. 18 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,560 Thank you for all the many ways you've contributed to the growth 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,920 of clean energy in my home state, but in our industry. 20 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,240 And I wonder as the from the place where you sit as one of 21 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:27,800 the most well known and important infrastructure 22 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,120 companies building the current energy sector, what's holding us 23 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:32,960 back right now? OK. 24 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,360 Well, thanks, Nico, and really appreciate what you've done with 25 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,000 Suncast the leadership and congratulations Jigger for your 26 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,880 new podcast Energy Empire. Really looking forward to this 27 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,480 conversation. It's great to be here in North 28 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:54,240 Carolina at the UNC Cleantech event, which is a fantastic 29 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:56,680 event. What's holding us back? 30 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:03,120 Well, I would argue we're, we are up and to the right as an 31 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:08,360 industry and how are going very, very strong despite a lot of 32 00:02:09,479 --> 00:02:12,680 noise to the contrary. If you look for example in the 33 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:17,280 United States last year, 83% of the new power generation 34 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:22,800 capacity was solar and storage. It is working us as a company as 35 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,240 a yardstick About 3 years ago and one month ago, we went 36 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:30,800 public and at that moment, our backlog at Next Power was 2.1 37 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,800 billion. Today it's well over 5 billion. 38 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,920 So I would say we're not being held back in terms of like 39 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:42,720 getting because in part we've won on economics where solar is 40 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,880 the lowest cost way to generate power pretty much everywhere on 41 00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:47,680 Earth. And now that we have storage 42 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,240 that's very affordable and at four to six hours now as 43 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,400 storage, it can work pretty much everywhere as firm power terms 44 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,000 of getting to the next level. Where do we go from here? 45 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,360 How do we? I think we're really limited 46 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,040 mostly by our imagination and our talent. 47 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,880 And so we're trying to bring the best and the brightest into our 48 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,120 industries and really evangelize our message. 49 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,000 We need to transition our thinking from being alternative 50 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,560 energy to we are the mainstream energy. 51 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,680 We need to start acting that way, investing more in public 52 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,320 education, public policy, getting evangelizing our message 53 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,600 out there, not only at home but abroad. 54 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,720 We're in 45 countries around the world. 55 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:37,280 So I would say we're doing great, we can do better and we 56 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:43,520 are part of the solution for affordable, reliable energy and 57 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,680 play nicely with other power generation technologies. 58 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,320 Now in terms of getting the best and the brightest to join our 59 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,400 industry, I mean, you and I were best and the brightest at some 60 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,400 point in our career and I started at Astropower in 1995. 61 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,520 You started at PG&E and have been working on solar since 62 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,800 1980s. You know, how do you get the 63 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,600 best and the brightest to choose our sector? 64 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,080 And like, what was your journey? How did you decide that this was 65 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,920 going to be your path? Right, I'll answer that. 66 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:16,399 But again, I'm going to do a quick a quick tangent, which is 67 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,480 there was a golden moment Jigger, you founded Sun Edison. 68 00:04:21,519 --> 00:04:23,400 We were at power light at that point. 69 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,600 What we were both focused on was the right thing, which was drive 70 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,760 down the levelized cost of energy, which then allows 71 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:36,800 project owners to have the highest unlevered project rate 72 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:42,240 to return, right. And so I think keeping true to 73 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,720 that and you carried that thought through all the way 74 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:50,080 through the awesome investments you were making in your tenure 75 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,400 at the Department of Energy. And thanks again for your 76 00:04:52,840 --> 00:04:57,080 incredible service there. So for me, I think staying true 77 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:06,120 to a vision which is solar, renewables works for all and 78 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:10,840 we're going to deliver no compromise, high reliability 79 00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:15,240 energy that wins it all the above merits, those are the 80 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,640 things that attract the best and the brightest. 81 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:25,200 So we've been able to I think deliver on that last year. 82 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,520 Next power, Sorry, this sounds a little promotional, but I think 83 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:29,840 it's helpful in answering your message. 84 00:05:29,840 --> 00:05:34,080 We were the top performing renewable stock, but also beyond 85 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:37,880 renewables in all mid market cap companies, we're in the top ten, 86 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,160 right? And so folks are like, wow, this 87 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:45,760 is not just good for the planet, but this is a really smart 88 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:51,160 business and that's driven by satisfying customer needs, which 89 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,760 are people need power that's reliable, that's available. 90 00:05:55,200 --> 00:06:02,360 And so we've been able to now in order to deliver a fulsome 91 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,560 solution, we've brought in, for example, robotics where we have 92 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,320 inspection robotics that are doing vision, predictive 93 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:13,160 analytics, digital all in IT. So to support that business, we 94 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:18,000 brought in a bunch of, you know, fantastic machine learning teams 95 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,840 and and things like that. So if you look at the scope to 96 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:25,960 deliver take our products and services to the next level, we 97 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,120 need the best and the brightest and our team is the most 98 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:35,240 important thing in order to innovate, execute and deliver 99 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:38,960 those kinds of products and services for our customers. 100 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,640 So I think we need to stay true to our vision, our mission 101 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:47,640 mission, articulate that, but deliver exemplary operational 102 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,560 performance where folks see this as a real industry. 103 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,920 That's a first order thing. Does that make sense? 104 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:57,560 It does, but I still think you dodged. 105 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,320 I want to know all of the like uncles who told you that you 106 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,600 were wasting your life by going into solar power or working for 107 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,760 the electric utility. There have been a lot of 108 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:09,440 naysayers along the way. Right. 109 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,120 But those naysayers are also telling the best and brightest 110 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,000 not to join like your firm, right? 111 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,000 I mean, the real question is like, what did you say to 112 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,200 convince them that like, you were still invited to 113 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,600 Thanksgiving dinner? That's funny. 114 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,960 I did this whole video series called Dinner with Dan. 115 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,680 Yeah, because I'd had this, I was at a wedding and some guy 116 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:34,440 was like renewable power and he, it was like, although, well, 117 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,920 that's not reliable. The panels are all made in China 118 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:40,600 and you know, why don't we do nuclear and and those types of 119 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:43,280 objections. But I think what we need to do 120 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:48,120 is really have, it's about communications. 121 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,400 That's the number one place we as an industry have 122 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,800 underperformed very consistently. 123 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,520 And so I've, we've leaned in not just at Next Power, but in our 124 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:00,880 industry associations. I serve on the American Clean 125 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,040 Power Board. You know, we've taken the comms 126 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,720 budget up from a few 100,000 to I believe north of $10 million a 127 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,680 year to really evangelize those messages. 128 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:15,360 One of the things we did was this manufacture clean energy 129 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:18,320 manufacturing jobs tours that we've done. 130 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:23,200 We've done 9 public factory openings and there it's very 131 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,360 popular and it really helps transcend the unfortunate 132 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,280 politicalization that's happened with some of these energy tax. 133 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,480 Everyone loves the fact that, you know, we took a former 134 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,840 Bethlehem Steel facility in Pittsburgh and converted that 135 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,680 into a modern manufacturing facility that's shipping 136 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,920 hundreds of trucks a week of finished goods and rinse, 137 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:48,960 repeat. We're doing that with 138 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,800 electronics in California where we've got a bunch of, we're 139 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,680 making advanced frames for solar panel using US steel in the 140 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:00,160 United States. So I think for me, the 141 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:05,800 manufacturing story has been really important to cut through, 142 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:11,080 evangelize the message, make it a message that everyone signs up 143 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,200 for, but also really hitting now the affordability that we're 144 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:16,920 delivering the lowest cost power. 145 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:23,920 So it's a ground game. We need to again grow up as an 146 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:25,680 industry. While not alternative, we're 147 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:27,840 mainstream. Let's start investing. 148 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:33,400 Dominant 3% feels like a dominant position last year. 149 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:38,280 That's a great word. I, I, you know, but we, I think 150 00:09:38,560 --> 00:09:45,880 earn what we are basically have created, which is basically 151 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:51,480 through a lot of hard work, this tech works, the project returns 152 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,520 are happening. We're supporting, you know, 153 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,080 hundreds of projects across United States and the world. 154 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,800 And so I think by really being very factual and concrete about 155 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:06,040 that, the that's what's attracting talent and and 156 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,160 supporting our industry. One of the things then that I've 157 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:14,320 been most impressed by watching the last 20 years of your growth 158 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:19,320 from Power light through to next Power is the continuity of the 159 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,280 team. I think that it's interesting in 160 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,720 an industry that's as fast growing as ours has been it it's 161 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:31,400 I don't think it's so common to see that level of fidelity to 162 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:35,480 the same or to a core team. I mean there's like 8 Co 163 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,560 founders I think to next power, maybe 9. 164 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:45,280 How does that unified experience not only accelerate growth and 165 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:49,200 value for shareholders, but serve as a beacon for folks that 166 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,720 are looking at the industry? Like how do you think about that 167 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,360 internally as a management team? Yeah. 168 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,240 Thanks for saying it. I mean, it sounds like, you 169 00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,160 know, apple pie, but the culture really is the most important 170 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,000 thing, Drucker said. Culture eats strategy for 171 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,360 breakfast everyday and people can read through, they can 172 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,440 really see that. So what do I mean by that? 173 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,000 Like what are some of the things of culture? 174 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,640 So one of the things we say at almost every all hands meeting 175 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,680 is we encourage people to like do the right thing for the 176 00:11:21,680 --> 00:11:24,680 customer, do the right thing for your business, take risk. 177 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,920 If you make a mistake, that's OK, the company has your back. 178 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:30,840 We can make a mid course correction. 179 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:36,240 Yeah, but what we don't want it. What's unacceptable is analysis 180 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:41,160 paralysis, being afraid to make decisions. 181 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:45,760 And what we do is when we bring people in company, we don't give 182 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,880 them a rule book, you know, as thick as an encyclopedia and say 183 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:50,880 here's all the stuff you have to follow company. 184 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,320 We brought it down to one thing. We say please make every 185 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,080 decision at the company like it's your own money, your own 186 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:02,280 company. 99% of the time, that'll be the right thing to 187 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:06,800 do. So having those types of that 188 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,600 type of culture, also a strategy that people can articulate. 189 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:15,800 If you walk into 8090% of the companies around the world and 190 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,800 you ask somebody to walk down the hall, what's company 191 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,200 strategy? Most time people will say, I 192 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,560 don't know, I'll tell you what, but if you walk into an X power, 193 00:12:24,560 --> 00:12:26,280 you ask someone what's company strategy? 194 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,320 They'll say it's iced tea. Well, what does iced tea stand 195 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,000 for? It stands for innovation, 196 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:37,640 customers execution and team innovation that delivers value 197 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,600 that customers understand, credible customer focus to make 198 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,120 sure whatever their needs are met, relentless folks on 199 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,160 execution with everyone we touch and building the best team. 200 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,280 And so being able to have a clear strategy that's 201 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,680 transparently articulated a culture that allows people room 202 00:12:57,680 --> 00:13:00,600 to grow in their career. You know an example, our chief 203 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:09,760 operating officer at Next Power started three companies ago as a 204 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,880 clerk in the project construction department. 205 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:17,440 A few years later when it became time in 2004 to build the 206 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,360 world's first ten MW system, which was in Germany, we looked 207 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,040 around and said who's the most qualified person and was Marco 208 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:26,040 Miller. So he did that and he has a 209 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,840 senior project manager and he's elevated. 210 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:33,040 So if people work hard, they're diligent, and they deliver the 211 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,120 results you need to provide upward mobility within the 212 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,920 company. In an industry that has had so 213 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,920 many up and down cycles, it's often difficult to provide the 214 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:48,520 kind of upward mobility and growth that that that talent 215 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,080 desires. And so they end up eventually 216 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,440 moving away to others. Like I think one of the things 217 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,480 that we've struggled with as an industry is being able to gather 218 00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:01,240 enough capital around the idea and enough commercial success, 219 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,200 which you're fantastic at, to be able to create something that 220 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:07,640 feels like it's a balloon lifting everyone off the ground. 221 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,720 How do we address that in at the time? 222 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,760 Like it seems like right now there are some headwinds, but we 223 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,160 have a lot of tailwinds as an industry. 224 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,720 So how do we address the capital requirements to make sure folks 225 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,600 have a job in 2-3 years? Well, I think this goes back to 226 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,120 what Dan was saying before. I think that part of this is a 227 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:28,840 narrative challenge. When you look at the employment 228 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,920 in the solar industry since the tariffs that was put on by 229 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,720 President Obama in 2012 and then 2015 and all the other things 230 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,840 has been up and to the right. We've consistently hired more 231 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,840 people every single year to meet the needs of millions of homes 232 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,560 that decide to go solar. Hundreds of thousands of 233 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:47,760 commercial and industrial facilities have to go solar, 234 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,840 utility scale solar. Now we're adding batteries to 235 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,200 all of those projects. People are busy. 236 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,000 People are really, really busy. I'd look I there are going to be 237 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,480 companies who fail to execute and they're going to go out of 238 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,240 business. And those folks, unfortunately, 239 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,600 are going to lose their jobs, but they are absorbed by the 240 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:05,320 rest of the companies who make good decisions and, you know, 241 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,640 still need that talent to go to the next level. 242 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,760 I think our biggest challenge right now really is a narrative 243 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,080 challenge. Like we are in a situation where 244 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,800 we are in the middle of one of the largest energy crises we've 245 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:23,080 had since the 1973 oil embargo. In 1973, we didn't have the 246 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,120 solutions that we have today to be able to get through this 247 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,160 energy crisis. Today, we not only have the 248 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,040 solution, we have billion dollar companies that are providing 249 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,480 those solutions at scale. And we can meet this moment, 250 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,480 right? And so that means that the 251 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,400 narrative has to change. People have to understand that. 252 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,200 Like putting in a backup diesel generator, right, is a cost 253 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,920 center. Putting in a backup battery can 254 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,120 become a profit Center for you and your family while protecting 255 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:51,560 your family. These are narrative challenges 256 00:15:51,840 --> 00:15:55,480 and it leads to us not growing as fast as we absolutely could, 257 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,320 even though, as Dan suggests, we are still going up and to the 258 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:01,040 right. So, Dan, let's go back to COVID, 259 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,240 right? In COVID, you had a presidential 260 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,200 election. The president that came in at 261 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,720 the time was all about onshoring and reshoring, right, which 262 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,240 President Trump had been, you know, and starting in 2016. 263 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,920 And I think the solar industry was slow, frankly, to get in 264 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,080 that message. I think they sort of took until 265 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,000 2024-2025 before they were like, oh, I guess people are serious. 266 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:24,280 We're going to have to onshore and reshore. 267 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,760 You were never slow. Like you went out this, you 268 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,800 know, like head on right in the middle of COVID figuring out 269 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,280 exactly how you're going to onshore and reshore this 270 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,040 capacity. What exactly is it that like 271 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,160 triggered in your mind early to understand that this was a 272 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,880 lasting trend, one that you had to take seriously, one that you 273 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,400 had to attack? Yeah, I appreciate that. 274 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:50,240 Sometimes there are those moments you don't have perfect 275 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,520 information, but you need to do sort of pattern recognition and 276 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:59,200 make a decision and go forward. And so for me, at the very early 277 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:04,400 part of COVID, there was a global meltdown in the logistics 278 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,800 industry. And so prior to that, you could 279 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,920 move a container pretty much from point A to point B anywhere 280 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,760 in the world from any port for about $2500 to $3000. 281 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:19,200 We saw logistics triple in 1/4 and 1/2. 282 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:24,839 Warren Buffett came out and said all My Portfolio companies were 283 00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:27,280 caught completely off guard by that. 284 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,800 And we also saw a steel double in that period. 285 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,760 What for our company at the time, we were largely protected 286 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,040 on the steel side through our business practices. 287 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,480 But the the logistics was a huge hit. 288 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,960 We absorbed over $100 million a cost honoring every single 289 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,600 contract we had with customers. We absorbed those costs over 2 290 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,440 years. But I just I took a step back 291 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,320 and I said time out at this phase of my career, there's no 292 00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:01,360 way on a go forward we're going to be subjected to those kinds 293 00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:06,760 of uncertainties for delivering materially reliably to a 294 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:11,600 schedule to a customer site based on a COVID mandated shut 295 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,760 down in a faraway port or congestion at the Port of Long 296 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:18,360 Beach or strikes or or all the other things that were 297 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:20,560 happening. So we just made a decision based 298 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:24,760 on fundamentals of delivering material reliably to customers 299 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,000 onshore. In creating this narrative 300 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,360 around not just the narrative, but the the concrete facts on 301 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:34,640 the ground, we stood up like over 35 factories across the 302 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,120 United States. And so and it matters, right, 303 00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:41,040 people notice that you've done that and I think it's actually 304 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,600 LED you to get more market share and you know, and more 305 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,720 enthusiasm for your customers. Like I appreciate some of those 306 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:49,960 sort of like. I will, but let me finish. 307 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,000 So back on like that decision. I'm a I'm a student of. 308 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,240 I don't want to like agonize about the, but I try to learn 309 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,000 from what was our decision process at the time. 310 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,760 And it was really driven by satisfying customer need. 311 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:07,920 And So what everybody else was looking at or many people were 312 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,240 looking at, they're like, hey, wait till we get through Chinese 313 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,120 New Year's. The things will decongest and or 314 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:15,160 wait till this happens or wait till that happens. 315 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,560 We're going to, I'm like, no, we're moving forward on a 316 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:21,400 massive build out. And I thought at the moment I'm 317 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,280 like, we're going to build out 10 gigs of capacity. 318 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,360 So we started doing that. I thought that was a lot. 319 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,120 And then I was like, took it frankly was harder to do in the 320 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,840 US than we thought it could. It was going to be. 321 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,240 So we said, OK, we're going to 25. 322 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:39,760 Then we said we're going bigger than that. 323 00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:43,360 And so we made, we pulled that trigger. 324 00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:46,320 That ended up being a defining moment in the history of the 325 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:47,880 company. It was the right thing to do. 326 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:57,160 And so, so then it engendered we were able to radically simplify 327 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,440 the whole logistics part of our business and give customers, oh, 328 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,280 buildable megawatts by block in a predetermined sequence where 329 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,680 they had visibility on the all the materials and hit 330 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,560 unbelievably high on time delivery where when we do QB Rs 331 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,040 with EP CS, we ask, have we slowed you? 332 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,200 You down on any project over the last few years, have you been 333 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,680 waiting with people in the field for any material they look 334 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,480 around and the answer's no. We we've been delivering it 335 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,440 engendered a lot of and we're able to reduce lead times. 336 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:32,120 A side benefit we hadn't really even thought of was the how much 337 00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:35,880 cleaner the US steel is, right? And so this electric arc furnace 338 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:41,040 steel uses a fraction of the energy that a blast furnace does 339 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,680 as a fraction of the carbon content. 340 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,600 So we're able to use, you know, really do that and build 341 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,160 incredible relationships with three of the top mills in the 342 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,800 country with new core steel dynamics and US steel. 343 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:56,920 So I think it we did the right thing. 344 00:20:57,120 --> 00:21:01,520 It was really predicated on satisfying customer demand and 345 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,880 customer satisfaction. It then engendered a lot of 346 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,800 confidence, respect, but we're able to completely reengineer 347 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,640 our supply chain operation, save a lot of costs, deliver on time 348 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,880 and bring a whole range of new benefits to the table. 349 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:25,360 Dan, it's been amazing to see how as Next Power executes gets 350 00:21:25,360 --> 00:21:28,720 bigger, it brings more of a focus to the industry. 351 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:33,440 A lot of folks like to joke that you're the industry rock star. 352 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,680 You're actually are a literal. Rock star It's with. 353 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,080 Groupies and everything. With groupies and everything, 354 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,040 we're, we're standing around in the hallway, Jigger and people 355 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,000 were walking up going you're the, you're the guitar guy. 356 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,320 No, he's known as the guitar guy as much as the CEO of Next 357 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,120 Power. I guess I have a couple of 358 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:52,160 things that I wanted to pull threads on because you mentioned 359 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,120 what ACP is doing. Jigger mentioned that the 360 00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:55,440 narrative is really the most important thing. 361 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:57,280 My question was going to be what, what's the most important 362 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:58,520 thing to get right over the next five years? 363 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,920 I think it is the narrative, but why don't we see a, more CE OS 364 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,880 like you on CNN and how do we get them there? 365 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:12,360 And then, B, why don't we see more companies and CE OS leading 366 00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:15,880 with their checkbook to create the kind of political power that 367 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:17,440 we need? What's that going to look like 368 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,560 over the next five years? Yeah, well, I think, you know, 369 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,840 giving a shout out to some of our brethren and and sister 370 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,200 companies in the space. I mean, amazing leadership from 371 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:36,240 David Carroll at Ng, from Sandia at, at EDPR, you know, next year 372 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,480 has really stood up and, and done great work with John 373 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:45,040 Ketchum and, and what Silicon Ranch is on regionally in the 374 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:50,120 Tennessee Valley area. Leeward has done in, in their 375 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,080 realm, Desiree. And so all these companies, 376 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,680 we've seen some really great leadership folks stepping up to 377 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:05,440 really tell our, our story about delivering reliable power that 378 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,960 can happen quickly, affordably and, and create a lot of 379 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,520 employment. So we are seeing increased 380 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,880 engagement and leadership with folks getting out there and 381 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,600 doing it. And I think we, but I really 382 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,720 want to encourage anyone that's a participant in this industry 383 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:31,240 to really lean in on this and be confident about telling the 384 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,880 story of what you're doing with your products and services. 385 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:41,640 And we really want to see the everyone be successful in this. 386 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:46,840 The the enemy is not the renewable energy company down 387 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:48,320 the street that might be a competitor. 388 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:56,560 The enemy is really old ways of thinking and us not really 389 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,920 because we are the we're not alternative energy as we've been 390 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:01,560 discussing. We're mainstream energy and we 391 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,280 need to start acting like that. What does that look like though, 392 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,320 Dan? I mean, like, just to finish up 393 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,280 here, I think when you look at the state that we're in right 394 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:14,640 now in North Carolina, we have over 7000 megawatts of operating 395 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,080 token farms in the state, most of which are have a power 396 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,840 purchase agreement with progress, which is now part of 397 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,400 Duke or Duke, right. And you know, like they have 398 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,880 just issued a 15% rate increase to do things the old way. 399 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:32,200 The new way would be to take Amazon up on their offer to 400 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,560 build batteries at all of these, these, these sites and build 401 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,520 capacity that way, right. At some point. 402 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,360 I, I guess what I'm trying to understand is there's narrative 403 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:43,800 and then there's the fight, right? 404 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,400 This is a Public Service Commission. 405 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,480 It's an actual, you know, docket at, you know, the Public Service 406 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,720 Commission, the vertically integrated utility says, you 407 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,480 know, I want to do it the old way. 408 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,520 You're saying we're 90% cheaper if you do it the new way, right? 409 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,280 The data center companies are like, we'd rather do it the new 410 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,160 way because we don't want to get blamed for a 15% rate increase, 411 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,600 you know, like, but as that fight progresses, right? 412 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,360 You've got a governor who may not be a PhD in electricity 413 00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:11,240 regulation, right? Like how? 414 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,960 How do we as an industry help to get those better outcomes? 415 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,000 Right. Well, I think I, I really think 416 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:23,200 a number of the folks you mentioned are trying to lean in. 417 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:26,480 Governor Josh Stein will be here today. 418 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:29,160 I have the pleasure of introducing him and they has 419 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:33,120 been a champion for a clean power for a decade going back to 420 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:36,240 his work as Attorney general. He's participating in this 421 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:41,080 conference with a with an address and these investor owned 422 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,400 utilities. We're trying to lean in to make 423 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,640 it a win win for all the participants. 424 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,400 We've been serving the data centers with the corporate off 425 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,800 takes has been it's not a new thing. 426 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,160 It's probably one of the dominant drivers of demand and 427 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:58,760 let's make it a win for these utilities. 428 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,800 I think what we're really focused on also is the 429 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,720 engineering around interconnection, making sure the 430 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,720 inverters keep, you know, stay with the grid and keep 431 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,640 supporting it. I think there's so much 432 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:19,040 opportunity with with our technology is a much better way 433 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,960 to generate power and control the grid than a rotating 434 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,680 machine. We're just, we've engaged with 435 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,080 an X power, we've engaged with Nerx zip to basically we're 436 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,640 working on an engineering bit level to essentially show wow, 437 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,560 the flexibility of these inverters for ancillary 438 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,120 services, Walter support ride through frequency regulation to 439 00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:41,600 be able to do those things and pair with batteries. 440 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,280 There's a tremendous opportunity. 441 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,000 We again, we're mainstream energy now with solar and 442 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,400 storage. Let's start doubling down our 443 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,080 investments with all the stakeholders you mentioned and 444 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,600 really be a solution that also they can win with their current 445 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,120 business models. They want to keep the lights on 446 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,520 and I don't blame them. I used to work at a utility. 447 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:07,680 So I, I really think we're part of the solution and we're going 448 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,840 to do our best at Next Power. We're building some additional 449 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,160 labs. We're working collaboratively 450 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,960 with those stakeholders to really continue to innovate, to 451 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,360 find solutions that are frankly lower cost, higher reliability, 452 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,760 but create more economy, faster to market and Oh yes, better for 453 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,000 the environment than those legacy ways of generating power. 454 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,720 What's that, Dan? Jigger, thanks for all your 455 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,520 amazing work and Congrats on Energy Empire podcast. 456 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,360 And Nico, always a pleasure to work with you. 457 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:40,480 Thanks, Dan. Thanks, Jigger. 458 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:50,760 Give it up. That was Dan Sugar, and that 459 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,520 wraps up our series from the UNC Clean Tech Summit. 460 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,240 If you enjoyed these conversations and you want more, 461 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,440 including our episodes with John Shoka from the conservative 462 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,120 Energy Network and investor Ahmad Shatila, go to Suncast. 463 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,440 Find Nico Johnson wherever you get your podcasts. 464 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,640 Thank you so much for listening to Energy Empire.