1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,040 I feel like, Amit, it's like you're kind of like looking in 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,200 the couch cushions and finding 1,000,000 bucks. 3 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:08,520 That's what it feels. Like $25 million per MW. 4 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:12,400 It's, it's like, it's like the change that you find in your 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,000 drawer when you open, except that here it's like trillions of 6 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:17,840 dollars. And it is also a natural 7 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,160 competitiveness issue, which can literally define the course of 8 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,000 humanity for the next 100 years. So the stakes are much bigger. 9 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,840 Energy isn't just an industry, it's how the world works. 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,640 I'm Jigger Shaw, a clean energy entrepreneur. 11 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,120 And I'm Jamie Nolan, a clean energy communications executive. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:40,600 Welcome to Energy Empire. Wow. 13 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,880 We just like had one of these crazy experiences where, you 14 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:50,080 know, I just dropped my kids off at Legoland and I have one. 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,880 But then, you know, we have cousins who joined him and then 16 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,800 had to like, rush over to the recording studio to like, you 17 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,400 know, record the podcast. And so Legoland I think is like 18 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,720 pretty decent, I have to say. Oh really? 19 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,080 Well, I mean, I appreciate your level of commitment. 20 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:09,760 I see that you are joining us wearing what is on your shirt. 21 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:11,280 Are you? What are those crabs? 22 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:16,480 Americana, look at this, Rosie. Americana, look at you with your 23 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:21,400 patriotism and your commitment to the pod that you are even 24 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,280 recording from vacation. How's your? 25 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,240 Wife feel about that? I mean, she's not happy, but at 26 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,960 the end of the day, you know, I found that like, there was only 27 00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:34,120 so many reschedulings we could do. 28 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,440 And so I was like, let's get this done all. 29 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,320 Right. Well, please make it clear to 30 00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:43,600 her that it was not my idea, OK? I hope she knows every time that 31 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,040 you're working overtime, it was definitely your idea. 32 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,960 I am always happy to be like, oh, it's an off week. 33 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:51,640 No, I know, but it's pretty good. 34 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,360 Like my, I have a 10 year old and he he, he's fine, He's doing 35 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:56,520 great. He was excited. 36 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,000 He was like, you're giving me the freedom to just roam around 37 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:00,960 the park. I was like, yes, he's like, this 38 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:02,240 is amazing. Great day. 39 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:04,400 So I agree. You. 40 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,639 The conversation we're having with Ahmed Narayan from Grid 41 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,000 Care is a really interesting one for me. 42 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,840 It's, you know, these kinds of topics can be so boring because 43 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:18,760 it's really about this esoteric thing within the grid, right? 44 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,120 Which is that we operate a grid in the way in which you would 45 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,880 think about worst possible outcomes, right? 46 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,440 So you say if these five things occur, we need to make sure that 47 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:33,600 there's extra capacity such that you know, we can continue to 48 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,400 ride through even if all five things occur and then everyone 49 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,000 keeps having power. But what that means is that 50 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,880 there's 100,000 megawatts of extra capacity in the grid that 51 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,080 could be unlocked right away with the right software. 52 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,760 And it's the craziest things because this stuff sounds so 53 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,360 boring. But I think he went to Portland 54 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,120 General and found 450 megawatts of capacity they didn't know was 55 00:02:57,120 --> 00:02:59,440 there, right? And as a result, rates are going 56 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,400 down by 5% for everybody who lives in Portland General, 57 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:04,920 right? He found 650 megawatts of 58 00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:07,800 capacity in National Grid New York's territory. 59 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,080 And as a result, their rates are going to go down 5% for everyone 60 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,560 who lives in that territory. Like it has real world 61 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:17,280 consequences on affordability. I mean, those numbers speak for 62 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:19,200 themselves. If you're seeing that data and 63 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,400 you're a utility executive, I don't know how you aren't 64 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,280 calling them. I mean, I'm, I'm really excited 65 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:28,080 to talk to him because I swear grid utilization is the topic of 66 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,120 the year. Like you cannot turn around 67 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:33,760 without hearing about how we can get more value out of the grid 68 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,720 that we've already paid for. And here is a company that 69 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:42,240 actually has a solution and has very, very clear ROI on the 70 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:46,880 investment in their solution to improve the efficiency of what 71 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,560 we have already paid for on the grid and get more out of it. 72 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:52,000 Totally. And I think that it really 73 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,600 follows on from the fantastic episode we had with Secretary 74 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,760 Granholm, which is right, what governors can do, right? 75 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,200 A lot in this moment. Governors need to become pH DS 76 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,600 and how electric utility systems work and they need to know that 77 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,000 solutions like this exist. And if they don't know, well, 78 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,480 then it's pretty hard to mandate it on to your utility to force 79 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,920 them to get more out of the grid we've already paid for. 80 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,440 Absolutely. I mean, they either need to get 81 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,840 the PhDs or they need to hire the PhDs or the equivalent of 82 00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:25,440 it, right? Because there's a lot of subject 83 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,920 matter expertise out there and a lot of these solutions have just 84 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,680 been waiting in the wings for their moment to shine. 85 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,680 And so I'm excited that we're finally at a moment where 86 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,400 they're getting their due and we're we're seeing the real 87 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,400 world benefits of them. And so, you know, Amit has like 88 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:46,440 the best example of of what this looks like and how it's applied 89 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:51,000 and what it means for everyday people in terms of money back on 90 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:58,720 their utility bills. Energy Empire is powered by 91 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:03,760 Octopus energy. Natasha, I'll give you a #3 92 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:08,240 Million electric vehicles in American driveways parked 22 93 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,240 hours a day. Why does that keep you up at 94 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,120 night? Because we paid for it. 95 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,000 Billions of dollars on batteries, on wheels, and the 96 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:18,120 grid treats them like they don't exist. 97 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,240 That's not a fleet. That's a stranded asset. 98 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,080 Plenty of assets sit idle. My lawnmower is stranded too. 99 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,160 Yes, but your lawnmower can't power your house. 100 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,080 Those cars charge at the worst hours because nobody's 101 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,160 coordinating them. Fix the coordination and their 102 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,280 capacity. Already built, already connected 103 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,680 and already in the garage. No new plants, no new wires, 104 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:45,040 right? The power plants already built, 105 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,000 someone just has to turn it on. That's what we do. 106 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:52,800 Thanks Natasha Crowe, vice president of marketing and comms 107 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:56,800 at Octopus Energy North America. Link is in the show notes. 108 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,280 Amit, everyone is acting as if the grid is maxed out. 109 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,760 Interconnection queues are years long at this point, and we need 110 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,600 to build massive new infrastructure. 111 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,760 You're arguing something different, which is that a big 112 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,800 chunk of the problem is that we just can't see what's already 113 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,560 sitting there on the grid. So make that case for us. 114 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,280 Well, first of all, just want to say I'm so excited to be here 115 00:06:24,280 --> 00:06:27,440 with both of you. And Jagger, you have been such a 116 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:29,760 personal inspiration for me over the years. 117 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:35,480 All the work that you have done across startups and then in the 118 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,600 government and public service. A big part of what I'm doing 119 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:44,120 today is just trying to follow your footsteps and inspired by 120 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:44,680 you. So thank. 121 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,480 You for you know, like you can, you can expand that answer 122 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,720 further, Amit, like you know, all all kind words are 123 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,960 appreciated. No, but no, we, we love what 124 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,120 you're doing now. I mean, you obviously had all 125 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,760 these success stories in terms of, you know, companies you 126 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,800 started auto grid, you sold to Schneider Electric. 127 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,000 So we're excited that you're back in the game. 128 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,680 Like, I mean, you know, having the best entrepreneurs in the 129 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:07,520 country back in the game is critical. 130 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:09,320 Yeah. And look, I mean, I've been on 131 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:13,320 both sides of this AI infrastructure build out story. 132 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,320 First, I was doing software to design these semiconductor chips 133 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:22,560 to drive the demand for compute. And now for the last several 134 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:26,240 years I've been working on the supply side, making sure that 135 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,720 the energy supply can keep up with with that demand. 136 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:33,040 So when the two movements collided, I just felt it was too 137 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:37,360 big to sit out, even though when I sold my previous company, the 138 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,000 only thing that I'd explicitly ruled out for my career was to 139 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:46,240 become ACEO of another startup. But I think with the with the AI 140 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:51,480 race going on, the next three to five years is going to decide 141 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,720 actually the shape of humanity for probably 100 plus years. 142 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,720 And right now we have this challenge, I call it the time to 143 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,720 energize challenge in the US, which is what we are addressing. 144 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,040 And I feel that we have a pretty unique insight into how this can 145 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,840 be addressed. So that inspired me to come back 146 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,200 into the game. So your case is that a big part 147 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,760 of our problem with the grid is that we just can't see what's 148 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,080 already there. Make that case for us, and how 149 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,360 does Grid Care help to address that? 150 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,600 Yeah. I mean, our fundamental thesis 151 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,480 is that America doesn't have a power shortage. 152 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,720 We have lack of visibility in what already exists. 153 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:37,559 And I think the one thing I want to clarify is that I'm not 154 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,360 against infrastructure build out. 155 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:44,440 If our power demand is going to grow and double or triple in the 156 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,000 next decade, we absolutely have to build more transmission 157 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,960 lines, We absolutely have to build more generation, we have 158 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:52,920 to build more substations, all of that. 159 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,720 But here is the challenge, the pace at which infrastructure can 160 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:01,760 be deployed with pouring concrete, getting the permits, 161 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:07,480 new technologies, that pace is simply not keeping up with the 162 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,600 speed at which AI needs to get deployed. 163 00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,000 And so when we started looking at it, we realized that maybe 164 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,760 the solution is hiding in plain sight. 165 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:21,120 If we can optimize what we already have in the ground, that 166 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:26,560 is the fastest and the cheapest and the cleanest way in which we 167 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:30,960 can power this AI revolution. And so our team started looking 168 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:36,560 at this in a lot more detail and we published a study to show 169 00:09:36,680 --> 00:09:41,000 that if you look at the grid in full granularity, it's only 170 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:46,080 about 1/3 utilized. That doesn't mean it's lying 171 00:09:46,680 --> 00:09:48,800 idle all the time. It doesn't mean that the 172 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,320 reliability constraints go away, but it also means that if you 173 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:56,160 are able to shine a light on it, we understand it better, We can 174 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:58,680 create more visibility and we are smarter about this 175 00:09:58,680 --> 00:10:01,960 infrastructure. We can squeeze a lot more out of 176 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:03,720 it. And if you can do it in code, 177 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,440 not copper and concrete, we can do it in 6 to 12 months, not 6 178 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,440 to 12 years. And that's really what inspired 179 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,240 us to go and address this challenge. 180 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:14,680 Yeah, I think they call it speed to power, right? 181 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,320 So I think you guys are right in the middle of it. 182 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:19,640 I mean, and then you just got validation, right? 183 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,200 You raised $64,000,000 in your latest round and you know you've 184 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,200 had some early wins with Portland General and National 185 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,200 Grid New York. So talk about the investment 186 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,840 environment and what are these investors really investing into? 187 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,760 What is the revenue model that they believe you know actually 188 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:38,160 gets them the returns that they want? 189 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:43,000 First of all, let's talk about the value of a MW right now. 190 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:50,600 If you look at the revenue of what AI is generating, it's 191 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:56,840 somewhere in the range of 10 to $20 million per year per MW of 192 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,960 capacity that can be unlocked. And so if you look at 100 MW 193 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,480 data centre, that's billions of dollars of value per year. 194 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,480 The urgency of the problem is so high that the hyper scalers and 195 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:16,040 AI infrastructure companies are willing to spend money on almost 196 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,840 anything that gives them hope, which includes sending chips to 197 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,720 space because they think they've run out of all the capacity on 198 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,480 Earth. It means they want to invest in 199 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:30,120 all kinds of technologies, from nuclear fission to fusion. 200 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,160 And look, I'm a technologist and I believe in all of these things 201 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,840 and I do think that many of these things are going to 202 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,840 happen. But the timeline in which some 203 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,920 of these technologies can be deployed even in the best case, 204 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,720 even in the most optimistic scenarios are 510 years out. 205 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,200 And as I mentioned earlier, the the AI race is happening right 206 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:50,840 now. We need to find a solution 207 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:54,000 today. And there is simply nothing else 208 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,720 that can be done at this speed and the scale than making use of 209 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,760 the infrastructure that is already in the ground. 210 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,600 So that's really where the business case comes in. 211 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:08,360 A lot of our investors were some of the earliest investors in the 212 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,760 AI revolution actually potentially in every wave of 213 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,040 technologies. Our lead investor in this round 214 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,040 is a firm called Sutter Hill Ventures who incubated NVIDIA 215 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,160 way back and then many other companies and John Doerr who was 216 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:26,160 the original investor in Amazon and Google and many other 217 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:28,800 companies. So they really see where AI is 218 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,520 going. They have realized power has 219 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,120 become the defining constraint for this AI revolution to 220 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,600 happen. And we are providing a solution 221 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,760 which is not speculative, which is already there. 222 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,280 It can be deployed at scale. And if we can capture even a 223 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:49,160 small part of the value that we are creating, it will create 224 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,800 tremendous upside for us, our investors and all our 225 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,000 stakeholders. So let's dig into the analogy 226 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,040 because you had said that the grid is only used about 1/3 of 227 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,160 the time and it's, you know, obviously used more than that 228 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,880 during peak, but less than that at other times, right? 229 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,320 And you know, I saw that Drew Maloney from Madison Electric 230 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,760 Institute had used a bus analogy, I think in the podcast 231 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:15,480 recently. I'd love to see how Drew's using 232 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,800 grid utilization at EEI and then you know the other rest, the 233 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,200 other analogy people use is a restaurant, right? 234 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:24,920 Like you have a kitchen, you have a certain staff, you have 235 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,920 the ability to cook food, you have the ability to sell seats. 236 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,520 And if those seats aren't sold well, then that's low 237 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,840 utilization, right? So paint a picture for how those 238 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,680 that utilization is only at 1/3 or 1/2 right, depending on the 239 00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:42,240 market that you're in? Yeah, I think the restaurant 240 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,880 analogy is actually quite apartment in this scenario. 241 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,840 I use the airplanes on a Thanksgiving Day, but it's the 242 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,880 same same idea. Look, the grid does get 243 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:57,320 constrained, but the precise scenarios under which the grid 244 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,080 gets constrained are fairly rare. 245 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:05,040 And even when these scenarios happen, they happen for only 246 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,880 very few hours. Historically, the challenge was 247 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:14,720 that to get the full visibility and granularity on when these 248 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,920 rare events are happening was just not feasible using the 249 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,120 technologies that existed. So if you look go back 20-30 250 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,880 years, you just had limited compute power. 251 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,760 So that led to planning assumptions and planning 252 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,960 methodologies that kept the system reliable and safe. 253 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,840 But it also meant that we had designed very conservative 254 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:41,360 practices and we were leaving a lot of room on the table. 255 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,960 So, So what we are able to do now with modern AI technologies 256 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:49,680 is look across time and look across multiple locations 257 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:54,240 instead of 1 location at a time. And we are able to find precise 258 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:57,480 conditions under which the grid get can get constrained. 259 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,400 And just just to do some quick math, if you let's say, have 260 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:05,200 10,000 things on your grid, the NARC standard requires that you 261 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,000 study all possibilities of two simultaneous outages, which 262 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,880 means that one thing can blow up in 10,000 ways and the second 263 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:13,560 thing can blow up in another 10,000 ways. 264 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,680 So you right off the bat half 100 million scenarios that you 265 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:18,880 have to calculate. That's shocking. 266 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,840 Like, I mean, honestly crazy. And people used to do that 267 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:27,120 analysis by hand with General Electric or Siemens engineers, 268 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,400 right? Yeah, it's brute force. 269 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,360 I mean, of course there's a lot of technology, but they will run 270 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,560 these simulations and you cannot run 100 million simulation. 271 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,560 So you will make some worst case assumptions and you will say, 272 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:44,080 well, my load might be one in 10 year maximum. 273 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,680 And if the two worst outages happen at the same time, what is 274 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,320 the capacity of the grid? But they would not look at the 275 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,720 probability, they would not look at all the hours across all the 276 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,280 10 years that they are analyzing because that computation didn't 277 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:58,760 exist. Now the other thing which is 278 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,680 very interesting that has happened over the last 10-15 279 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,440 years, thanks in large part to the work that you have done 280 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:07,680 Jaguar, is that there is a lot of new technology that has been 281 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,640 deployed on the grid. I mean, you funded batteries, 282 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,960 you funded virtual power plants. We have a lot more dynamism on 283 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,200 the grid, on the operation side. And these are not unproven 284 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:19,960 technologies. These are getting deployed at 285 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:21,960 scale. The utilities are used to 286 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,760 dispatching these things, but these technologies are not 287 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,760 properly accounted for in the part of the utility which is 288 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:34,560 calculating how much capacity is available in the in the future. 289 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,480 And so this is a big part of what we are trying to do, create 290 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,080 a visibility across the utilities and the customers 291 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,240 because the planning processes are worst case they're looking 292 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,800 10 years ahead, operators are looking seconds, minutes, day 293 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,240 ahead, but they don't look across ten 10s of years. 294 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,840 And now because of the computation, we can do that 295 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,840 granular second by second analysis, but look at 296 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,880 quadrillions of scenarios that might happen over the next 10 297 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,079 years and figure out exactly what can go wrong. 298 00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:06,319 And then once we know that, we can also figure out what are the 299 00:17:06,319 --> 00:17:09,599 best ways in which we can mitigate these rare events and 300 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,720 rare scenarios. And that would mean maybe making 301 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:15,079 the load a little bit flexible, maybe adding a battery 302 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:17,920 somewhere, using the virtual power plants that are already in 303 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:19,960 place and dispatching them more intelligent. 304 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,880 So this is not rocket science, but it was also not possible 305 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,680 with the tools that the utilities had at their disposal 306 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,840 until very recently. So Amit, like, let's dig in 307 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,320 further because I think part of what you're saying is, is that 308 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,880 there are these multiple silos within the utility that each one 309 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,600 of them has different data. But I think also what you're 310 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,160 saying is that they have different responsibilities, 311 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,720 right? And so like none of the three of 312 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:53,160 them actually truly understands how to fit a data center into 313 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:56,240 their grid, right? And so like, so why don't you 314 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,440 take a step by step as to why you guys need to exist? 315 00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,160 Why do folks need to use you? Yeah. 316 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,840 So I mean, as Jigar was mentioning earlier, this is 317 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,720 something which is not just planning, it is not just 318 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,240 operations. You have to bring many different 319 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:19,600 parts of the utilities who have historically existed in silos 320 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,080 and they don't have the same view and visibility together. 321 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:28,120 But it is actually a lot more than just the internals of the 322 00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:32,080 utilities themselves. The way we unlock capacity is 323 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,600 not by saying utilities need to become more efficient. 324 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:40,840 We also expect the customers to behave in different ways and 325 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,960 become better citizens of the grid. 326 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:49,040 And one of the challenges that we see is the communication gap 327 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,200 that exists between the customers of the utilities and 328 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,960 how the utilities work across all the different functions. 329 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,560 And so part of our value proposition is that we come in 330 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:06,040 with a fresh pair of eyes and we act as a a neutral third party. 331 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,240 And we are trying to figure out how we can build the bridges 332 00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:12,480 between the utilities and their customers. 333 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,160 And we can provide visibility to all the stakeholders which 334 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,480 includes the regulators, which includes the ISO's of course 335 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,080 different silos within the utility. 336 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:25,320 And then once we are able to create that common picture, we 337 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,760 can overcome the objections that each one of these stakeholders 338 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,120 might have and give them the visibility and what it means for 339 00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:33,440 them. So for example, for the 340 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,520 planners, they want to make sure that the reliability of the 341 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,880 system is not going to be compromised if they added a 342 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,440 particular new load into the system. 343 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,040 And we quantify that for them. We go to the operators, they 344 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,080 want to know this new type of flexibility, is it qualified? 345 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,400 Is it going to show up? What happens if it doesn't show 346 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:53,760 up? Who's going to take the risk 347 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,080 from an operations perspective? And we are able to quantify that 348 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:59,600 precisely in terms of how that works. 349 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,680 The customers want to know what kind of flexibility do they have 350 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,800 to bring? Are they going to get curtailed? 351 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,520 How many times are they going to get curtailed? 352 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,240 Is their compute going to get impacted? 353 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,640 And we can provide that visibility to the customer so 354 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,320 that they can figure out what is the impact on their business 355 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,920 operations. The regulators want to know what 356 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,080 is the impact to rates. Affordability is a big issue 357 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,280 right now. And the current narrative in the 358 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,920 market is that data centers are coming in and they're taking 359 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,240 away all the power and it's driving up rates for everybody 360 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,600 else. And so that is 1 big part of our 361 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,000 value proposition is that by using the infrastructure that we 362 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,280 already have more effectively, we can help with the 363 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,760 affordability question. We can actually help reduce the 364 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,000 rates for everybody. So when you're talking about 365 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,000 customers, are you talking about hyperscalers? 366 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,320 Are you talking about all like other types of large load? 367 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:50,840 Are you talking about home owners? 368 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,520 Yeah. When I talk about rates and 369 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,800 customers, that is anybody who is getting electricity from the 370 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:03,120 network, because this network is a fixed cost that we all pay for 371 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:06,600 as consumers of electricity based on the usage. 372 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,480 And if you can get more usage out of this asset, if you can 373 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:14,080 increase the utilization from 30% to 40%, that helps bring the 374 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,040 cost down for all the consumers of the electricity. 375 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:21,360 In fact, we published a white paper recently which shows that 376 00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:27,320 every new GW of capacity added on an existing network using the 377 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,480 approach of grid care brings the rates down by roughly 5% for a 378 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,280 typical mid size utility, which is very substantial. 379 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,880 Wow, that's really impressive. If utilities run the airline 380 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,320 business, they get paid for having enough planes on the 381 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,800 busiest travel day of the year and charging everyone more all 382 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,040 year to keep that capacity. Of course, that's just how the 383 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,480 business works. The incentive is to build more 384 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,720 infrastructure and not to get more out of what they already 385 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,720 have. So how do you sell a product 386 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,960 that helps utilities use their grid better when their business 387 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,960 model rewards them for building new grid infrastructure? 388 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,560 Yeah, I think that is another one of these myths are legacy 389 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:11,120 assumptions that are due for a challenge. 390 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:15,080 So you're absolutely right that in an economy where there is no 391 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,600 growth happening for the utilities, the only way they 392 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,560 could make money historically was by building more 393 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,760 infrastructure. And the only justification that 394 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,920 often existed was to build this infrastructure in the name of 395 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,800 reliability. And that by definition means 396 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,400 that we end up over building. But what has changed in the last 397 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:40,920 one to two years is that we are seeing this unprecedented growth 398 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,960 in demand for AI and now the utilities are realizing that 399 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,680 they are in a competitive environment even though they 400 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,400 still want to deploy capital and they want to build more things. 401 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:58,720 The timelines of deploying capital is several years out. 402 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,760 The earliest that they can build a new transmission line might be 403 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,640 5 years out. If they can get more revenue on 404 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,920 their existing infrastructure then their earnings can go up 405 00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,120 higher today. So that's one big change which 406 00:23:12,120 --> 00:23:14,280 is happening especially for investor owned utilities. 407 00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:17,640 They realize that they are in a competitive environment and if 408 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,880 they don't attract this growth now some other utility might 409 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:23,840 attract the data centers, but the we're going to call. 410 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,800 That your hot take of the episode I think. 411 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,760 That's great. But I think that the the second 412 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:34,200 big driver, which I think is maybe even more important and 413 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,960 that is more universal, it's not just for investor owned 414 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,480 utilities, it works for Public Utilities as well, is the crisis 415 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,560 of affordability in electricity rates which has become a 416 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,040 bipartisan issue. So even if the utilities want to 417 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:52,680 deploy more capital, they are not getting these rates approved 418 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,520 because the historical way of deploying capital was but to 419 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,440 rate base it, which increases the rates for everybody. 420 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,920 And the theory is that eventually the benefits will 421 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:04,720 outweigh and the rates will come down. 422 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:07,760 But I mean that that doesn't happen most of the times. 423 00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:12,520 So now the legitimate upgrades that the utilities have are 424 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,800 getting pushed out because there is just a lot of community 425 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:20,880 backlash around affordability. We are making it possible to not 426 00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,760 be not have data centers be viewed as a trade off between 427 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,000 growth and affordability. We are saying that if we can use 428 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:31,120 the asset more effectively and we can bring these large loads 429 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,680 sooner, that is beneficial for everyone. 430 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:39,120 The of course the data centers benefit, the utilities get their 431 00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:41,560 earnings sooner. But because we are now 432 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,480 amortizing the cost of a fixed infrastructure or more 433 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,320 electrons, we are able to reduce the rates for everybody. 434 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:53,480 And this is where our white paper shows that every new GW of 435 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,720 data centers that come online or for that matter any new critical 436 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:59,640 infrastructure doesn't have to be data centered. 437 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:03,760 But if they come online on the existing infrastructure, that 438 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:09,320 can reduce rates by about 5% for all consumers, all ratepayers, 439 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,280 all residential as well as commercial customers of the 440 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,680 utility. One thing I thought about, Amit, 441 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,680 was it sounds like you're in some ways a mediator, right? 442 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,200 Like the value of a mediator is that the data centre trusts that 443 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,960 you'll do a better job speaking utility, and that the utility 444 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,760 trusts that you'll do a better job speaking data centre. 445 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,560 Is that right? Yeah, I think mediator is a 446 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,720 pretty good analogy, except that I don't like the assumption that 447 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,920 the two sides are necessarily fighting each other. 448 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,720 That might be the case. Sometimes I think we are in a 449 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,360 moment of time where actually both sides are trying to work 450 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,880 with each other. They just don't know how to work 451 00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,160 with each other. So I like to think of ourselves 452 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,040 more as a bridge where we say we'll create the bridge. 453 00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:56,880 Both sides will have to do a few things differently and if they 454 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,720 both are willing to make those changes then they can meet in 455 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,680 the middle, which is good for utilities as well as the 456 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,960 datacenters. OK. 457 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,160 So there's definitely a major irony here that we're sitting 458 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,800 with AI is creating the biggest surge in electricity demands in 459 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,760 a generation. We talk about that all the time 460 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,480 on the show. And the solution to finding the 461 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,640 power for AI, it turns out might actually be AI. 462 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,960 And you're using generative AI to solve AI is own 463 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,320 infrastructure bottleneck. So is that as circular as it 464 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,160 sounds like? Do you personally believe that 465 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,760 AI is going to save us from some of these very problems that it 466 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,520 has created? Yeah, absolutely. 467 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,960 I mean, we can call it irony. I like to think of it as a 468 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,800 virtuous cycle. That is really the promise of 469 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,640 AI. The more we become intelligent 470 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,120 and the more we can squeeze out from the existing 471 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:51,840 infrastructure, the more abundance it creates. 472 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,320 And that's true for I think many areas. 473 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:59,080 But I do think that the solution of getting out of the current 474 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,720 situation is to just become smarter about what we have and 475 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,680 get more out of the system that we have already deployed. 476 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,240 And then of course, as we grow, it will also make possible to 477 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,520 deploy more and more things because it will allow us to 478 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,640 deploy that capital in in this more efficient manner. 479 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,480 And where does this end up going, Ahmed? 480 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,560 Like, so when you think about what you're doing for one 481 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,880 client, right, let's call it a data center, are you in the end 482 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,600 mapping out the utility grid for your clients? 483 00:27:32,120 --> 00:27:35,360 And then are you giving them a map in the end saying, well, you 484 00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:39,200 can put A5 MW EV charging system here and you could probably fit 485 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:44,080 another 185 kilowatts worth of manufacturing load growth here. 486 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:45,720 And you know, all this other stuff. 487 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,320 I mean does this become like a real time map for them on load 488 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:50,720 growth? Yeah. 489 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,320 And not just load group, by the way. 490 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,840 I think you have the other side of the equation as well where 491 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,640 you have, I don't know what is the current number, but 2.6 492 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,840 terawatts of generation, which is also stuck waiting to get 493 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,880 connected to the grid. And like right now all these 494 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,280 processes are run in a very siloed manner. 495 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,840 When you study generation, you don't look at the load and vice 496 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,760 versa. So this is really an MRI for the 497 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,280 grid in many ways. If you know where the 498 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:18,920 constraints are and when they're happening, you have 499 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,800 opportunities to add load in conjunction with the data 500 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,600 centers, you can have power that can be used for other critical 501 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,520 infrastructure, for your hospitals, for your 502 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,360 manufacturing plants, for electrification of 503 00:28:31,360 --> 00:28:35,160 transportation and other things. So really we need to look at the 504 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,280 grid as a system that it was designed to be. 505 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,800 And once we understand it, we can double the the capacity of 506 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,120 this grid. And and even even if we double 507 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,200 the capacity of the grid, we are only talking about going from 508 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,680 30% utilization to 60% utilization. 509 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,920 So it's not like climbing Mount Everest in terms of efficiency 510 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,320 of the system. But that would mean more than 511 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,600 300 gigawatts of capacity unlocked on the existing 512 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,520 infrastructure, which we can do in the next three to five years. 513 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,760 Literally there is no new technology that needs to be 514 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,760 deployed or developed for that basically. 515 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,720 Oh, it's completely massive. No, I totally agree with you. 516 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,120 I mean, but I guess what I'm trying to understand though, is 517 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,280 this this really a software problem, right, right. 518 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,400 Or is it, you know, sort of a contract and risk question, 519 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,800 right? Like is it really just that the 520 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,920 utility companies sort of need to change their posture, right, 521 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,960 to how they unlock this 300 gigawatts in your mind? 522 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,400 I am conservative and I say 100 gigawatts, but I'll take your 523 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,520 number. You know, like, but is it really 524 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,360 a risk posture that there's a bunch of people in the bowels of 525 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,720 the utility in the building who are like, oh, we could never run 526 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,160 the grid that way? Like the grid would break if we 527 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,400 did that. You know, we need all this stuff 528 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,120 that my grandfather taught me how to do. 529 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,360 Well, it's, it's definitely a technology issue in the sense 530 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,960 that technology is what enables the unlock and we did not have 531 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,880 this compute power in the past to analyze the great in this 532 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,640 detail. But it's not necessarily stops 533 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,280 at technology. Ultimately it's a trust 534 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,400 challenge and all the different stakeholders who are part of 535 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,880 this great ecosystem need to feel comfortable that what we 536 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,600 are doing is fair for them. And I think technology allows us 537 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,560 to create that trust and the contracts that are needed 538 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,880 between all the different parties so that if a data center 539 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:41,000 is getting power, they are not unfairly taking that power away 540 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,880 from some other customer. In return, they are bringing in 541 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,400 the flexibility that is needed to keep the system running 542 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,520 reliably and potentially reducing the rates for everybody 543 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:53,960 else. So I think technology enables 544 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:59,320 the contracts and the trust, but we do need to make sure all the 545 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,560 different pieces of this ecosystem is brought together 546 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,440 and that includes the various silos within the utilities. 547 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,680 But it goes beyond utilities. The data centers themselves have 548 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,120 to trust that this is something that is going to work for them 549 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,400 and they are able to get the capacity if they were flexible. 550 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,720 The ratepayers and their advocates have to believe that 551 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:27,000 this is going to bring the rates down and we are not allocating 552 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,720 willingly the capacity to one particular part of the society. 553 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,840 And then regulators have to feel confident that this is done in a 554 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,440 transparent, neutral manner. So I think this is the journey 555 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,560 that we have been going through and every part of US and every 556 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,760 part of the world, they have differences in how the energy 557 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:51,560 markets are structured, how they're regulated and so on. 558 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,840 And, and that's why I think we have to just go and prove it one 559 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,920 at a time in every, every specific situation. 560 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,680 But the thing which gives me hope is that at the end of the 561 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,240 day, most of these utilities, if not all, are facing the same 562 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:08,600 challenge. They want to solve 563 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:10,760 affordability, they want to continue to grow. 564 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,760 They want to enable economic growth in their regions. 565 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,560 The physics of the grid, thankfully it works the same 566 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,800 way. I've deployed grid technologies 567 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,280 in 20 plus countries and it's the same physics. 568 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:26,720 So if it works in Portland, it works everywhere else and at 569 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,800 least in the North America, the the reliability rules like Nurk 570 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:32,720 rules are pretty much consistent. 571 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,360 So everything that we do are under the current federal Nurk 572 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,960 fork regulation. So that is very transferable in 573 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,920 various jurisdictions, but some of the other stakeholders have 574 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,600 to be brought along to to make it truly scalable. 575 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,040 Yeah. So Amit, VPPS are not new. 576 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,680 We have been talking about Jigger and I have been banging 577 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,120 the drum on VPPS for years now. So it seems like this is the 578 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,280 moment and we're really starting to feel the scale and momentum. 579 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,280 Why do you think that that this is the time and it's it's 580 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,960 finally VPPS moment to shine? Just like both of you, I've been 581 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,880 in the VPP business for the last 10 plus years. 582 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:17,840 So I'm, I think over this time VPPS were a solution that we're 583 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,680 looking for a problem. And we had always promoted VPPS 584 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:28,280 as a mechanism for adding more renewable to the grid when the 585 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:33,480 renewable is intermittent or as a mechanism for hedging prices 586 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:38,240 for the participants because we didn't want to create a scenario 587 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,920 where supply is constrained and the demand is not flexible. 588 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,320 Now these were good use cases and we got quite far with this. 589 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:52,720 But the economic value that you can get out of these VPPS was 590 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:59,160 never high enough for these data centers to really care about it 591 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:03,280 or to take the operational burden or perceived risk that 592 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,480 comes with it. So as we deployed, I don't know, 593 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,840 we had about 8 giga watts of VPPS in 20 countries. 594 00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:13,679 The only times you were able to get data centers to participate 595 00:34:13,679 --> 00:34:19,800 in these VPPS were with Bitcoin mines when the Bitcoin prices 596 00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:23,080 were in the toilet because that was the way for them to make 597 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:23,880 money. But now. 598 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:25,719 It all comes down to Bitcoin, Amit. 599 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,480 I mean, didn't Criso start off as like a Bitcoin miner and 600 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,159 then, you know, now they're a big data center company? 601 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,320 Right. And which is great by the way, I 602 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:38,679 love that because these Bitcoin companies are already very 603 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:42,360 forward thinking about energy and flexibility and they were 604 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:43,960 doing it. So they are like some of the 605 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,360 most innovative companies out there who are realizing that by 606 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,400 being flexible, they can get another leg up. 607 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,960 And the the real value now is that every MW that you bring 608 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,520 online creates 25 to 30 million of new economic outcomes for 609 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,280 these data centers. So that price is big and is 610 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,200 worthwhile. And every data centre when they 611 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,800 are given a choice of waiting for eight years and spending 612 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,400 hundreds of millions of upgrade cost versus getting connected 613 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,440 right now, but they just need to add some more flexibility on 614 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:20,000 their data centers are choosing the latter option because it's 615 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,880 just a no brainer. Like in Portland, we offered a 616 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,560 flexible way of getting connected to six data centers. 617 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,920 All six took that, took it. They are all energized now and 618 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,800 they all want to get more. So I don't think there's any 619 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,760 debate, in my mind at least, whether data centers want to be 620 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,080 flexible or not. No, I think that's right. 621 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,400 I mean, the one thing that you talked about earlier, though is 622 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,000 about trust. And I'm curious whether you're 623 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,160 seeing and all the engagements that you have that the broader 624 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,960 population views your work as a way for the data center 625 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,080 companies to cut the line and get capacity faster or whether 626 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:02,200 they view this as a way to, you know, reduce rates and and, you 627 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,080 know, ultimately make the grid more affordable. 628 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,200 I mean I get your white paper, but are people believing it on 629 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,480 the ground? I think there is definitely more 630 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:14,480 work that needs to be done in terms of educating the public 631 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,280 and you know, data centres can be done in the right way and 632 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:19,520 they can be done in the wrong way. 633 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,480 I think we have a lot more examples of situations where 634 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,800 data centres have come online and they have increased the 635 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,160 rates for everybody. There are far fewer examples of 636 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,400 the kind of things that we are trying to do and this is clearly 637 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,720 an education and awareness issue, but the science is on our 638 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:38,680 side and it's not even that difficult. 639 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,840 It's like a numerator versus denominator. 640 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,440 If you increase the denominator and you keep the numerator the 641 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:49,160 same, then no. I think that's exactly right. 642 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,920 I mean you want to limit investment in the numerator and 643 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,120 you want to sell more kilowatt hours than a denominator. 644 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,080 You know, we, we've spent a lot of time in the last few months 645 00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,720 talking about grid utilization. And so it's, and I know that 646 00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:05,080 there's this, there's this data disconnect and the utilities 647 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,280 claim to not have the distribution level data that 648 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,360 they need to optimize grid utilization. 649 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,120 So it's so refreshing to speak to someone who's like, hi, we're 650 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,080 over here and we've got that for you. 651 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,520 But feel free to give us a call, you know, because we keep 652 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,400 hearing like the grid is so, so poorly utilized in so many 653 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:26,880 places in this country. So I'm, I'm excited to see what 654 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,240 happens with the growth of your company. 655 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,160 I mean, I know that you, you won one of the most innovative 656 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,840 companies of 2026 from Fast Company magazine. 657 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,280 Amazing, amazing, congratulations. 658 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,200 But innovation and energy so often means piloting something 659 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,520 for years and never scaling it, which is like Jiggers personal 660 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:47,800 mission in life to fix. And we talk about this all the 661 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,760 time. So what makes grid Care 662 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,400 different from every other promising grid tech company that 663 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,400 got stuck in pilot mode? Because you guys are just up, 664 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,760 up, up and away. Well, so we don't do pilots and 665 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:05,360 my challenge to the utilities is that bring your toughest, most 666 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:10,680 visible, most valuable problem and we will find you an answer 667 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,840 in less than 90 days. And we have done more than a GW 668 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,960 in the last six months. These were places which were 669 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,720 considered hopeless when we walked in and we found more 670 00:38:23,720 --> 00:38:27,040 capacity than even we thought would be possible. 671 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,280 And even in these locations we are finding more. 672 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,160 At this point we are in more than a dozen markets. 673 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,120 We have more than 10 gigawatts of projects that we are actively 674 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,040 analysing. And part of the reason why we 675 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:45,280 have been being received so well is that we do offer a fairly 676 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,680 risk free value proposition to everybody who is engaging with 677 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,320 us. Our message to the utility is 678 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:55,200 that, look, give us a chance. All we need is some data that 679 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,320 you already have because you have to run these studies 680 00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,080 anyway. And in 90 days we are going to 681 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:04,240 find an answer for you. And if we find more power, then 682 00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:08,480 you all are going to be heroes. You will increase your revenue 683 00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:10,600 internally, you will reduce the rates. 684 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,280 Your governors will love you, and if we can't find the power, 685 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,560 then you will have the satisfaction that you tried 686 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:21,320 everything and your stakeholders will know that you tried 687 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,040 everything. So what do you have to lose? 688 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,320 And our bet is that because the grid is being used for 30% of 689 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,800 its capacity, we are almost always going to find power. 690 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,560 And so far that has been true. And the same thing with data 691 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,520 centers. They can stay in the queue that 692 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,400 they have and wait for space data centers to happen, or they 693 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:45,280 can give us a chance and it's a net new voluntary option that 694 00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,160 they have, which if they get the power, they figure out how to 695 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,520 pay us for the value that we have created. 696 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,520 But otherwise, nobody is worse off. 697 00:39:53,720 --> 00:39:56,400 I feel like Amit, they want to go to space for other reasons. 698 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:01,360 I feel like, Amit, it's like you're kind of like looking in 699 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,440 the couch cushions and finding 1,000,000 bucks. 700 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,840 That's what it feels. Like $25 million per MW. 701 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:10,720 It's, it's like, it's like the change that you find in your 702 00:40:10,720 --> 00:40:14,320 drawer when you open, except that here it's like trillions of 703 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:16,160 dollars. And it is also a natural 704 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,480 competitiveness issue which can literally define the course of 705 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,480 humanity for the next 100 years. The coins are made of rare 706 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,000 metals. So, you know, we talk a lot 707 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,640 about the United States, which I love. 708 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:33,160 But you know, is this really a Western grid opportunity, right? 709 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,480 Like Europe and the United States and things like that? 710 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,880 Or you know, like even if you went to China where it seems 711 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,560 like you could just build, you know, grids easily, would they 712 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:48,840 find a similar grid utilization and find a similar opportunity? 713 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,360 Yeah. Look, I think the fact that grid 714 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,640 is getting suboptimally used, that is a fairly universal 715 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,640 problem. Now places where building is 716 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,520 easier, you can live with that inefficiency for a long period 717 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,000 of time and just continue to build. 718 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:08,720 But places in US, even a big part of Asia, I mean we are 719 00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:12,960 getting a lot of inbound from Southeast Asia, India, Japan, 720 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,640 Australia, most of Europe, Eastern and Western Europe. 721 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:20,960 These are places where the grid is constrained and building new 722 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,760 stuff is not that easy and it takes time, whether it's supply 723 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,480 chain, whether it's permits, whether it's some other 724 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,840 regulation that is out there. In those places, what you can do 725 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,040 with the existing grid becomes extremely valuable, because that 726 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,640 is something which is already there and all you need to do is 727 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:39,640 become intelligent and unlock it. 728 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,880 So my final question slash statement here is to get you to 729 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,240 explain to us if you're a governor, right, you're one of 730 00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:52,880 the 36 governors races across the country, right? 731 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,640 They just listened to this podcast because they obviously 732 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,160 all listen to this podcast and they just realized that you can 733 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,280 unlock 300,000 megawatts of capacity, right? 734 00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:09,280 Why should they continue to work on expanding the grid broadly, 735 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,080 right? Why should they continue to like 736 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,880 figure out a way to put more generation and like, I mean, you 737 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,200 know, like, I'm curious, like, why you think that they should 738 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,560 continue to like do all of the measures at the same time when 739 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,680 they've got such a silver bullet in great care? 740 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:28,800 Yeah, my message to them is that it's not one or the other. 741 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,120 I think you want to optimize. What you have kind of is one or 742 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,520 the other, right? They want like affordability. 743 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,360 They'd like to put all of the weight of the world on your 744 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,640 shoulders on it. Then you've got nice broad 745 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,720 shoulders. You can handle the weight, but 746 00:42:41,720 --> 00:42:45,480 I'm just saying like, you know, in some ways, like I think the 747 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,440 big pressure that I see is that people are constantly arguing 748 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,080 with us about unlocking gradualization because they're 749 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,960 like, oh, but you're not keeping the pressure up on new 750 00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,720 transmission lines. And we're going to regret it one 751 00:42:56,720 --> 00:42:59,800 day. Well, I don't think that is the 752 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:01,640 question. I think the question that people 753 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,920 should ask is utilization. I think if there is a demand 754 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,520 that you are seeing and it's a real demand and building a 755 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:14,240 transmission line brings that demand sooner, but in a way 756 00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:17,920 where the utilization of the system is going up, then I'm 757 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:19,960 fine with that. And I think that's the right 758 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,080 decision. But if you're building something 759 00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:26,440 and the utilization goes from 30% to 25%, then by definition 760 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,680 all the other ratepayers are paying for it in some form or 761 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,240 the other, like no matter how it comes back to the numerator 762 00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:34,000 versus denominator question. So I think the right question to 763 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,080 ask is that any project, whether it's a new data center that is 764 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,280 coming in, a new transmission line that you're trying to 765 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,080 build, is that effective utilization of the grid? 766 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:45,480 Is it going up or is it going down? 767 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,560 If it's going up, then it's good. 768 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,200 If it is going down, then it's some cross subsidy that is being 769 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,600 afforded to some people in the system. 770 00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,880 A man after my own heart. Well, you are the inspiration, 771 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,160 so I hope we can make this the default. 772 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,680 Well, it's so wonderful to have you on it and thank you for 773 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:13,720 jumping back into the CEO fray. You know, you have such an 774 00:44:13,720 --> 00:44:17,080 excellent track record of delivery. 775 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,880 You know, I think your previous companies were so successful and 776 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,600 you figured out how to get electric utilities to sign big 777 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,560 contracts, which I think is what we need today. 778 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:28,920 This trust gap that you talk about is so real. 779 00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,280 And so thanks for getting back in the fray. 780 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,400 Well, thank you so much for all the support and good wishes and 781 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,120 all your vision and inspiration. It's been a privilege to be on 782 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:46,080 this show with you. Energy Empire is supported by 783 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,120 S2G Investments. If you haven't checked out their 784 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:53,480 podcast, I highly recommend it. They have a great recent episode 785 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,000 on the long term effects of the Iran war and the blockade of the 786 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:00,560 Strait of Hormuz. In the episode, Sanjeev Krishna 787 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:05,520 and Frank O'Sullivan and Bala Nagarajan make a compelling case 788 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,000 that this disruption could be the most powerful accelerant for 789 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:10,720 renewable energy in a generation. 790 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:14,920 And in future episodes they'll be exploring how those forces 791 00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,120 are reshaping our food systems and ocean intelligence. 792 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,840 Sound interesting? Go find the S2G podcast and 793 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:26,000 start with the global energy order has changed now what? 794 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:34,760 Wow, he has so many numbers. Like it is crazy. 795 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,760 I mean, I always thought we were sort of managing the 50% 796 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,120 utilization of the grid. I think he used 30%. 797 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,960 Like, I mean, he was basically glass half empty in terms of how 798 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,280 much of our existing grid that we're already using. 799 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,240 But in some ways it's even better because it means there's 800 00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:54,240 so much more capacity to unlock. You know, one thing that I've 801 00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:57,400 learned in working on grid utilization this year is that a 802 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,560 lot of these utilities and the system operators and like the 803 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,880 utility service areas that we have across the United States, 804 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,120 they don't know how much of their grid they're using. 805 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,800 Like they truly do not have the data and they don't have the 806 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,280 tools internally to actually understand how much of their 807 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,640 system they're using. It's crazy when you actually 808 00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:20,440 they think about it. And so here we have a company 809 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,440 that has a solution that can come in and basically map that 810 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,080 local grid and is literally, it's like finding, as I was 811 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,680 saying in the episode, finding $1,000,000 in your couch 812 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,160 cushions. It's just wild. 813 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,240 Like it's there the whole time and it's just being 814 00:46:33,240 --> 00:46:36,400 underutilized. Oh, yeah, at 650 megawatts, I 815 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,320 think that's a billion or, or even more. 816 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:43,920 I think it's $50 billion now to build a 1000 MW data center. 817 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:48,400 So if you like reduce that to 650 megawatts, I think that's, 818 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,520 you know, something in the order of like $35 billion of value. 819 00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,280 I mean, it's crazy. It's wild. 820 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:59,120 I mean, I, I'm so happy that finally these technologies are 821 00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,600 getting their due and we're and they're getting these big 822 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,920 contracts and you know, they're finally getting these, you know, 823 00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,200 relationships with utility companies where they can 824 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,680 actually provide value to both utility, the customer, the end 825 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:16,320 customer, whether that be a data center and manufacturing plants, 826 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,880 etcetera, as well as the benefits flowing directly to 827 00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,160 everyday people in terms of reductions in their utility 828 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,640 rates or downward pressure. So those utility rates are going 829 00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,160 to rate are going to increase more slowly as a result of 830 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,320 increased and improved grid utilization. 831 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,960 So the thing I don't understand is why it's not just mandatory 832 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:41,280 for all 160 plus investor owned utilities to hire somebody like 833 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,640 this by the end of the year? I mean, maybe because their 834 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,560 regulators just don't know that solutions like this are out 835 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,440 there, but there are so many. I mean, I think about the work 836 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,840 that the utilized coalition is doing and they're kind of a 837 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,600 group of service providers that also have different solutions 838 00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:00,040 that can help to meet this moment in terms of like better 839 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:01,960 utilizing the grid that we already have. 840 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,840 We're seeing some states take action. 841 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,960 Virginia recently passed a law that they are going to actually 842 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,040 even just try and analyze how much capacity is available on 843 00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,240 their grid. As I was mentioning, like a lot 844 00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:18,680 of these utilities, they don't even know they they don't know 845 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,280 what their current grid utilization is. 846 00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:24,200 So putting them into a posture where they have to prove that 847 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,360 they need the poles and the wires before they actually 848 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,560 construct them. It seems like common sense to 849 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,800 me. Oh, totally, totally. 850 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:36,280 I mean, it does feel like a big unlock and I'm glad to see folks 851 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:37,960 starting to use it. Absolutely. 852 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:41,560 Well, it was absolutely wonderful talking to Amit and 853 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,720 learning about his solution and all the hard data he has about 854 00:48:44,720 --> 00:48:48,480 the value. So yeah, let's hope that more 855 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:57,040 utilities get wise to this. Welcome to Ask Jigger, our 856 00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,600 weekly segment where Jigger answers your questions about 857 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,400 energy and honestly anything else you're wondering about. 858 00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:05,760 Huge thanks to our sponsor, Octopus Energy for making this 859 00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:09,160 segment possible. And a quick reminder, anyone who 860 00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,880 sends in a question that Jigger answers on the show gets an 861 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,000 Energy Empire hat from our brand new merch store. 862 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,720 So send them in. OK, let's get into it. 863 00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:21,280 Our first question comes from Tommy Burbis. 864 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:25,760 And he asks Jigger, what's your read on Freedom Forever's recent 865 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:27,920 bankruptcy? They were one of the largest 866 00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:29,760 residential installers in the country. 867 00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:33,000 So what does it signal for the retrofit residential market, 868 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,280 which you may need to define for people, Jigger? 869 00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,960 And why is it so hard for retrofit residential companies 870 00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:42,720 to survive in the first place? Yeah, it's a great question and 871 00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:45,720 one that I think is, you know, come to the fore in the last 872 00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:48,240 year just because we've had so many bankruptcies, not just 873 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:52,720 Freedom Forever, but also Synova and Sun Power and I think over 874 00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:55,880 100 installers. Basically the market that they 875 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,520 serve is existing residential homes, right? 876 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,280 So you have a home that already exists, someone knocks on your 877 00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:06,080 door and says would you like to put solar panels on the roof and 878 00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,360 a battery in the garage? And if you say yes, then they 879 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:12,800 put it in motion, file permits, do all the things. 880 00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:16,240 And a lot of them get financed right from people like Synova or 881 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:18,920 Sun Power in the past. And today it'd be Sunrun or 882 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,880 Palmetto. And what you find is, is that 883 00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:26,200 over time, what happened is we had low interest rates and you 884 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,880 had a lot of competition between, you know, Good Leap and 885 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,200 Sunrun and Sonova and others. And so they would give people 886 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:34,760 credit. For instance, they would say, 887 00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,520 hey, you know, we'll give you milestone payments while you're 888 00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:41,800 installing the solar project. And so every time you hit a 889 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:43,800 milestone, we'll wire more money into your account. 890 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,760 And so folks started being a lot leaner with how much money they 891 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:52,200 had in the bank account. And then as things got worse for 892 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,960 folks like Synova, they started paying people late. 893 00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:56,440 They started paying that 30 days. 894 00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,720 They started paying that 60 days, they started paying that 895 00:50:58,720 --> 00:51:00,840 90 days. And for people like Freedom 896 00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,760 Forever, they're like, wait, you know, I'm running pretty tight 897 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,960 here. I don't have all this extra 898 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,520 money to pay salaries and do all this stuff while you're paying 899 00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:11,960 me late, right? And my balance sheet isn't 900 00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,560 strong enough to be able to go get $100 million loan from the 901 00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:18,400 local credit union to be able to cover these losses, right? 902 00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:22,400 And so one of the big problems is, is that we've basically run 903 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,080 everything too hot. And when things, you know, went 904 00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:30,320 S like in this case, higher interest rates, weaker solar 905 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,480 financing companies, then, you know, there was this domino 906 00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:35,760 effect that, you know, really took down freedom forever. 907 00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:37,720 All right. Our next question comes from 908 00:51:37,720 --> 00:51:40,440 Nikhil Vinod. And Nikhil says Jigger. 909 00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:44,040 Here's a What if, say, AI infrastructure turns out to be 910 00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,400 overbuilt and the energy it actually needs comes in well 911 00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,080 below the predictions, which is certainly something that people 912 00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,320 are speculating about. In that world, what becomes the 913 00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:56,560 main use for all of the extra generation that we have built? 914 00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:01,040 Yeah, it's a good question and one that I think we're not quite 915 00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,560 at that stage yet. So there's, you know, let's call 916 00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:08,880 it 35 one plus GW data centers that have announced that they're 917 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:10,680 under construction. When you look at the actual 918 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,640 data, most of them are way delayed, right? 919 00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,360 They were supposed to start construction in 2026. 920 00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:19,160 Now most of them have been delayed into 20272028. 921 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:23,400 I think the bigger risk is not that the load doesn't show up 922 00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,560 from AI data centers. My sense is that lots of people 923 00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:29,480 are using AI, and I think there's going to be a lot of AI 924 00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,920 load. I think the real disruption is 925 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,440 going to be local versus central, right? 926 00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:37,480 So there's training for data centers, right? 927 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,920 So that's training a new model. And right now that's maybe 500 928 00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:42,920 megawatts of load to train a new model. 929 00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,640 That number is predicted to go to 4000 megawatts by the end of 930 00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:50,480 the decade to train a new model. And then there's inference, 931 00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,760 right, which is you playing with the cloud app or the ChatGPT app 932 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,400 or creating an agent or doing whatever it is that you do with 933 00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,400 AI. And a lot of those tasks can be 934 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:04,560 A5 MW data center near your home or a 500 kilowatt data center 935 00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,640 that's in an abandoned office building or 100 kilowatt data 936 00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,880 center that's in the back of a telecom tower or even A50 937 00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:15,760 kilowatt data center like our friend Archer was experimenting 938 00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:19,160 with with Span IO and his partnership with NVIDIA and 939 00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,240 Pulte Homes. And so if that happens and we 940 00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:26,680 move to inference closer to the edge and we don't need these one 941 00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:30,680 GW data centers, then that capacity could be excess 942 00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:32,920 capacity. Right now we're not there 943 00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:35,840 because we're so far behind and building a lot of that capacity 944 00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,400 that we haven't built a lot of excess capacity. 945 00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,160 And I would suggest to you that we're going to figure out 946 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:44,400 whether we can move data centers to the edge by the end of this 947 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,760 year. And I think, I think we are 948 00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:48,920 going to successfully do that. And I think a lot of these one 949 00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:53,760 GW data centers are going away. Next Uluche Smith, says Jigger. 950 00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,680 I work in hydropower, and I've always wondered why it never 951 00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,160 gets the attention that wind, solar, nuclear and storage do. 952 00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,920 Is it the price? The assumption that the good 953 00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:06,560 hydro resources are already tapped, which Canadian advocates 954 00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,800 say isn't true? Why doesn't hydro generate the 955 00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:13,560 same excitement as its peers? And is it doomed to follow coal 956 00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:17,720 towards obsolescence? Oh, well, I know that when we 957 00:54:17,720 --> 00:54:23,560 worked at LPO, we maybe heard from the hydro industry that we 958 00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,960 weren't like investing a lot in the development of that 959 00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:29,080 technology. So I think that that relates to 960 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:30,560 this question. What do you think about this 961 00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:31,960 jigger? Yeah. 962 00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,840 So I spent a lot of time on hydro while we were serving and 963 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:36,600 there's a couple of big problems with hydro. 964 00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:40,000 One is, is that most of the best sites in the United States have 965 00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,480 been used. I mean, that's not true for 966 00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,120 Canada, but it is true for the US. 967 00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,320 The sites that are available now are much smaller sites and 968 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,600 they're largely owned by the Army Corps of Engineers. 969 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,440 And so you need permission from them to use some of their non 970 00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:56,720 power dams. They're called to add power 971 00:54:56,720 --> 00:55:00,000 infrastructure to the dams. And then if you remember, we 972 00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:02,600 couldn't actually finance those other loan programs office 973 00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,800 because of the federal Nexus, like we couldn't lend money to 974 00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,120 something that the Army Corps of Engineers was a part of. 975 00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,560 And so there's some of that. The other problem that you have 976 00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:14,560 is that we have a lot of old hydro dams. 977 00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,680 And if you just upgraded them with new software and new 978 00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:20,200 equipment, etcetera, you could double, triple the amount of 979 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,280 energy that they produce. But it takes like 5 years to get 980 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,560 through the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission to get 981 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,000 approval to do that. And so I know that the Trump 982 00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,680 administration is trying to make all of that more streamlined, 983 00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:32,760 but I think they're working more on nuclear than they are in 984 00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,120 hydro. And then the last piece of it is 985 00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,600 it the people who own hydro assets are sticks in the mud. 986 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,560 So they're like electric utilities or they're like old 987 00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:45,600 people who are 80 years old and love the money that comes off of 988 00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,240 them. So when you go to them to try to 989 00:55:47,240 --> 00:55:49,640 buy the hydro assets off of them and say you're not doing 990 00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,320 anything with these, we'd love to buy them and upgrade them. 991 00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:55,520 They make your life a living hell to try to buy these assets 992 00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:57,000 from them. And so you're just like, screw 993 00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,160 it, I'm going to work on geothermal and nuclear because 994 00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,040 like, I'd rather do that than, you know, like work on hydro. 995 00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,880 And so hydro needs a refresh. And we never did a hydro liftoff 996 00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:09,560 report, but we need to. And that's all for Ask Jigger 997 00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:11,320 this week. Remember, you can send in your 998 00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,400 own questions and like I said, if yours gets picked, there's an 999 00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:17,800 Energy Empire hat in it for you. The link is in the show notes 1000 00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:19,720 for our merch store. Please check out our merch 1001 00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:22,160 store. Thanks for listening as always. 1002 00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,440 You can find us at Energy Empire dot FM and wherever you get your 1003 00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:29,160 podcasts as well as YouTube. If you've got a second, please 1004 00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,520 leave us a review on Spotify or Apple podcast because it makes a 1005 00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:35,160 huge difference and helps other people find the pod. 1006 00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:36,280 Thanks so much.