1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,960 Hi, I'm Jamie Nolan, a clean energy communications consultant 2 00:00:03,960 --> 00:00:07,520 and this is Energy Empire. And today I'm coming to you with 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:11,680 my first ever solo episode and I'm interviewing Rosie Jewel, 4 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,160 who is a graphic designer and visual artist who actually 5 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:17,600 designed our brand for Energy Empire. 6 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:21,400 So our very cool logo featuring the Statue of Liberty. 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,640 And she is Jigger and my former colleague from the US Department 8 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,920 of Energy Loan Programs office, which is how we first met her. 9 00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,759 And so today we're going to talk about kind of Rosie's approach 10 00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:36,600 to design, how she got into it, what the design process looked 11 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:41,520 like for Energy Empire and what our collaborative process was, 12 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,640 what we were going for. And you're going to see some 13 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,920 really cool behind the scenes footage of her design process. 14 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,240 And then we're also going to discuss clean energy 15 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,040 communications and branding and some of the issues kind of 16 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:57,320 facing our sector in those areas and what she and I think might 17 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,760 make a difference and set us in a better direction. 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,680 So I hope you enjoy it and thanks for being here. 19 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,400 Hi, Rosie, welcome to Energy Empire. 20 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:16,240 Hi. Thank you so much for having me, 21 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,520 I've been so excited about this. Well, also, thank you for being 22 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,400 my first guest for my first solo episode. 23 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,320 I'm really excited. It's just me and you. 24 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:26,560 OK, so we have to start with this. 25 00:01:26,960 --> 00:01:31,000 Our listeners have feelings about our logo, specifically the 26 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:34,000 fact that our power plug only has two prongs. 27 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,120 Like we did not know that we were going to offend so many 28 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,120 people. We've been getting called out of 29 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,960 LinkedIn and some people are telling us it's not safe. 30 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,200 So this tiny detail got a really outsized reaction, which tells 31 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,720 me branding matters more than people and energy sometimes 32 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:51,600 admit. So what was the story there with 33 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,720 the two prongs? I don't know if there have been 34 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,880 more comments since I last caught up with the controversy, 35 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:01,880 but I mean, the honest answer is just that it looks better. 36 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,920 I tried it both ways and I'm sorry, like call it artistic 37 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,240 license or whatever, but especially because this needs to 38 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,160 function at such a small size. It's just clearer if it's two 39 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:13,760 prongs. To go even further into this 40 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,880 controversy, what we really should be asking is what is 41 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:18,840 attached to the end of the power cable. 42 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:21,640 Because the Statue of Liberty is like a lightning rod, right? 43 00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:24,120 She's made of copper or she's coated in copper. 44 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,800 She gets hit by lightning something like 600 times a year, 45 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,480 and it just courses, like, right over her body and then goes 46 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,200 straight to the ground, which is what keeps her safe. 47 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,520 But if she's standing out there in the rain with, like, a janky 48 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,120 appliance attached to this power cable, that's not going to be so 49 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:42,760 good. So I did a little drawing to 50 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:44,560 show you what the outcome of that might be. 51 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:48,280 And yeah, let's just say I don't see how that could possibly be 52 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,400 controversial. Sure. 53 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,640 I mean to me it's the toaster or something, right? 54 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:56,880 It's like they're meant to like represent a regular electrical 55 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,320 appliance. I think people were like well 56 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:04,040 for PV and and all of these like random references for us about 57 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,840 electrical safety of course, like the grounding prong and the 58 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:09,600 importance of it etcetera, etcetera. 59 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:11,760 I'm sure all of that is very important. 60 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,640 But most importantly, should we be worried about the electrical 61 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:17,160 safety of our brand? Are we at risk? 62 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:18,880 I think. We're fine. 63 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,680 I also, like, I come from the UK where we have, I think they're 64 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,640 considered the safest plugs in the world. 65 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,240 So I just want to state for the record that I do care very 66 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,040 deeply about electrical safety. But yeah, we don't need to be 67 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,560 quite so literal with the Statue of Liberty holding a plug. 68 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,800 Sure, it's all for fun and and it's it's art, but it's meant to 69 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,880 be fun and light so I love it. I love it so much. 70 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,560 I'm so excited to dig into how it all came to be. 71 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,360 But for people who don't know you, how did you end up 72 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,440 designing the logo for an energy podcast? 73 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,400 Give us the short version. Yeah. 74 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,600 So, well, you and I know each other because we both worked at 75 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,160 the Department of Energy in the loan programs office. 76 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:00,920 I was there from 2023 to early 2025. 77 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:04,600 And we both worked kind of almost directly under Jigger in 78 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,400 the front office in the External Affairs team. 79 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:10,480 And you were the media PR guru, obviously. 80 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,520 And I was one of the people who made stuff look pretty, I guess. 81 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,839 Let's dig into that a little bit more, our history and your 82 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,120 background. You're a designer from Dartmer. 83 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:23,800 Am I saying that right? Dartmer, England, Dartmoor So 84 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,280 much more elegant when you say with your English accent, we'll 85 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:29,720 let you do that from now on. And you ended up with the US 86 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,680 Department of Energy Loan Programs office, which I do not 87 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,000 think is an obvious career path. So kind of how did that happen? 88 00:04:36,280 --> 00:04:38,920 I don't want to give you like the extremely long version of 89 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,080 the story, but I grew up on Dartmoor, which is if you can 90 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,600 kind of picture a little bit like Scotland or a little bit 91 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,280 like the landscape in Lord of the Rings in New Zealand, like 92 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:53,400 these gorgeous rolling hills. It's very bleak and barren in a 93 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,880 way, and just very dramatic and beautiful. 94 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:58,400 I had a really, really strong attachment to that landscape as 95 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,760 a child, was in the middle of nowhere and I was like literally 96 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,800 roaming the Moors on foot on horseback. 97 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,240 I grew up painting and Dartmoor was like an endless inspiration 98 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,920 to me. So just that is like some 99 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,080 context as to how I ended up here. 100 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:13,760 But it was definitely a securitus route. 101 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,120 So I studied French and Spanish literature and came out of 102 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,080 university thinking that I would do something in kind of human 103 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,200 rights and I was really interested in women's rights. 104 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,680 I met my husband at university and we decided to move to LA 105 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,960 together because he was interested in becoming a 106 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:29,680 filmmaker. And I'm going to say as well, 107 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,640 I'm a pretty risk averse person, which it's going to sound kind 108 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:35,920 of weird because this was one of the like big risks that I took 109 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:40,240 in my life where we just decided to move to LA sight unseen, trek 110 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,000 across the country from his parents place in New York. 111 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:45,560 But when we got here, the first job that I had out of college 112 00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:49,160 was actually with a nonprofit urban design firm. 113 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:51,880 It's a really cool organization called KDI. 114 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,080 And I was the development and communications person there. 115 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:59,320 So I did mostly a lot of grant writing and a lot of bid writing 116 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,640 and they are based in Los Angeles and in Nairobi. 117 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:05,920 Basically their model is working with underserved communities to 118 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:10,000 Co design public infrastructure that layers environmental, 119 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,520 economic and social benefits. And so because of the projects 120 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,680 that we were doing in Nairobi in particular, flood risk is 121 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,080 something that comes up a lot that people have to deal with. 122 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,640 Like the poorest communities live in these informal 123 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,760 settlements alongside rivers, and they have to deal with the. 124 00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:27,560 I mean, as we've just seen in the news with Nairobi, I think 125 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,160 several people have just died from the flooding there. 126 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,120 So KDI builds these public spaces with the community that 127 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,520 like layer flood protections and green infrastructure, along with 128 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,520 social and economic programming. And so that was like my first 129 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,640 kind of exposure to the world of climate change and climate 130 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,840 resilience. And coming out of that job, I 131 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:48,920 really realized this is the overarching problem. 132 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:53,480 And like the big challenge of our time is to deal with this, 133 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,840 this threat and this risk. So 2020 is when I left KDII 134 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,960 mentioned that I grew up painting and have been a sort of 135 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,080 artist on the side all my life. But it was something that I had 136 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,800 very much been oppressing in my professional life and thinking 137 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,000 like, from a very young age, I decided, you know, this is not a 138 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,120 sensible pathway to take. I should be academic. 139 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,920 I should pursue more stable vocations. 140 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,880 But I realized in 2020 that I really needed to scratch that 141 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:20,960 itch. So I had this opportunity come 142 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:25,240 up where a person that I had volunteered for suggested that I 143 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,840 could come and work with him just as a contractor on kind of 144 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:32,440 communications consulting. And that gave me the opportunity 145 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,000 to transition out of KDI and start building up a design 146 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:37,560 portfolio on the side. So I did that for a few years 147 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:39,680 and built up this design portfolio from scratch. 148 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,280 I taught myself design on LinkedIn and YouTube with all of 149 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,200 the arrogance of somebody who just like doesn't know what they 150 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,720 don't know. I was like, I can do this. 151 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,240 I'm an artistic person, right? And most of my clients in design 152 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,440 were in the the, the climate advocacy space. 153 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,680 And so towards the end of, I think 2022, I was talking with a 154 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,800 really good friend of mine and saying, I feel like I've spent 155 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:04,720 so long looking at the problem with climate. 156 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:06,840 And obviously it's really important, this role of 157 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,000 advocacy. But, you know, where are the 158 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,200 solutions? How can I, like, find out about 159 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,120 what we're actually doing to mitigate this issue? 160 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,440 And this person was Lucy. She was also at the loan 161 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,080 programs office. And she said, well, we're 162 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,200 looking for a designer, so why don't I put you in touch and see 163 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,240 where that goes? And yeah, that's how it 164 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,480 happened. The rest is history. 165 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,400 I found myself in the team with with you and yeah. 166 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,520 Yeah, I think I interviewed you for that job. 167 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:32,320 I did. Yes. 168 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,640 A lot of us spoke with you and you were so clearly a good fit 169 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,000 with the really strong culture we had an LPO and Jigger very 170 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,400 much so of course believes in external affairs and the 171 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,600 importance of communications and marketing and invested a lot 172 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,320 into growing our team so that we had all the tools that we 173 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,240 needed, which I think we'll talk more about the importance of 174 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,080 that type of work a little bit later. 175 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,600 But one thing from your story that really resonates with me is 176 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:01,080 kind of the influence of like a, the place that someone grows up, 177 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,200 because I have a very similar story. 178 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:07,520 I I grew up in the Eastern Shore of Maryland and in this region, 179 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:11,960 actually, I currently live in the DC area and grew up on the 180 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,360 Chesapeake Bay. And my dad was a boat mechanic 181 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,360 and electrician and he always worked in a boatyard. 182 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,600 And so we always owned one to three boats. 183 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,520 So we were out on the water a lot. 184 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,640 And so, yeah, just all my most vivid childhood memories 185 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,040 involved the Chesapeake Bay and kind of like the influence of 186 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:35,360 natural spaces on the values of a young person I think are 187 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:39,800 really important and kind of also led me to pursuing this as 188 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:41,960 a career. So it was fun to hear that about 189 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:45,040 your background. When people think of DOE, I do 190 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,240 think that what comes to mind for them is scientists or like 191 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,720 policy specialists, but they may not think about designers and 192 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,080 visual artists like yourself. And people like you play a 193 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:56,960 really important role in DO ES work. 194 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,160 So what was it like being a creative there? 195 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,600 It was great. Honestly, I think, yeah, that 196 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,000 might be like a strange thing to hear and and goes against the 197 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,680 what most people would assume. But one of the things that I 198 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:12,880 love, like you said, Jigger was really overseeing the office at 199 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,440 a time of expansion. And the phrase that we all kept 200 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:19,440 saying to the point where I'm most tired of hearing it now is 201 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,840 that we were building the plane as we fly it and we were putting 202 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,720 all the things together. So there was this amazing kind 203 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:29,000 of startup mentality almost. And I'm definitely a generalist. 204 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:32,000 So I love working in a small team with other like smart 205 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,560 generalists. And I get a real kick out of 206 00:10:34,560 --> 00:10:37,480 working with people who had like total nerds about their 207 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,960 particular area of interest. So I got to interface with 208 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,400 people, you know, who were explaining like how loans are 209 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,080 structured to me and what is credit subsidy and got to like 210 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:53,560 understand about the, some of the technical aspects of the, 211 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:55,200 the projects that we're working with. 212 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,880 So I just found it a really dynamic and inspiring 213 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:00,680 environment. I definitely learned something 214 00:11:00,680 --> 00:11:02,960 every day. Everyone really valued what I 215 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,960 did and what we had. Our other designer, Lee Farrell, 216 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,960 who big shout out to Lee. I should say I have an anecdote 217 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,000 here. So I went to a wedding a couple 218 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,800 of years ago and I mentioned that I was a designer at LPO to 219 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,240 an energy journalist. And his eyes widened and he 220 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:23,400 went, did you do the posters? Like people love those posters. 221 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,880 And I had to tell him, no, that was the other designer, that was 222 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:28,840 Lee. So he was incredible. 223 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,240 But I think people really did value what Lee and I were doing 224 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,320 and, and the, the importance of design and visual communication. 225 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,600 Overall, the most fun thing is when someone comes to you with 226 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,160 this, a really important point that they're trying to make, but 227 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,160 it's complicated and it's like there's layers to it, layers of 228 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:48,600 context and complexity. And you help them kind of strip 229 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,320 it down and figure out like, what is the point that we want 230 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:52,520 to make it? What is the story that we're 231 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:54,240 telling? And like how do we you know if 232 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,920 it's a chart, for example, on a lift off report, can we make the 233 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,120 heading of the chart tell you what the chart is explaining to 234 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:03,720 you so that you don't have to do the work? 235 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,480 What were some of your favorite and most impactful design 236 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,640 projects that you worked on over the years of DUE? 237 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:12,880 It was. Definitely deploy. 238 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:17,000 So I had a hand in various other bits and pieces and was kind of 239 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,240 a general graphic designer and you know, people would come to 240 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,840 me to do A1 pager or a deck, but deploy was the definitely the 241 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:28,000 thing. So it started with Kyle, our 242 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,720 boss, and the external affairs team saying we're gonna be 243 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:32,560 putting on this conference this year. 244 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,760 Maybe you wanna put together a couple of logo options to send 245 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:37,560 and you know, we'll see, see what you come up with. 246 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,760 I sent like 10 different ideas and started getting feedback 247 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,160 from this mysterious person called Susan Kish. 248 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,160 And then it just snowballed from there into developing the entire 249 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:50,640 brand identity for the conference, doing all of the 250 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:53,240 environmental graphics. I got to start working with 251 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,120 Jason Ramos, who is also still a colleague. 252 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,200 He's the the chief architect at Constructive, which we'll we'll 253 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,360 talk about later. Yeah, doing the environmental 254 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,680 design, doing all the promotional design, doing the 255 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:07,320 decks, doing the social media graphics. 256 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:12,120 And I think by the 2nd year with Deploy 24 where we went like 257 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:15,640 much bigger and much better. And we had the exchange and I 258 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,760 think we had three times the number of attendees that year, 259 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:23,320 which was just so exciting. And I really by that point was 260 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,320 kind of Co creative directing it with with Jason, which was just 261 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,280 such an incredible opportunity and and such a blast. 262 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,600 And I mean, we got such great feedback for Deploy 24 263 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,600 especially, people told us that they got so much work done. 264 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,960 They had like 60 meetings that it really was like the front 265 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:41,680 porch of the Department of Energy. 266 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:47,520 And this moment where people could see the full continuum of 267 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,480 how like all these different offices fitted together to 268 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,960 support projects from R&D stage all the way to deployment and 269 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:56,520 they could meet all the people on the way that that would help 270 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,760 them get there. And of course, the programming 271 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,400 was amazing. There were like, I think 130 272 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,000 hours of programming over the two days, lots of like really 273 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:09,040 pragmatic conversations and yeah, it was just really special 274 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,280 to help create the environment for that. 275 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,240 I think the the plenary stage in particular, like I had such a 276 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,280 thrill watching people filter into that dark room. 277 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:20,320 I mean, you saw Jennifer Granholm presumably giving the 278 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,480 closing speech and, you know, not a dry eye in the room. 279 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,680 It was just so powerful. And to get to see that on a 280 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:29,960 stage that I had Co designed with Jason was unbelievable. 281 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,920 It was awesome. It was very specific moment in 282 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,960 time and anybody who was there for those two years that we put 283 00:14:36,960 --> 00:14:39,560 on that conference will know that it was something special. 284 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,760 And I love that. I mean real deal making was 285 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,320 happening in those two like projects got built because of 286 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:51,920 the connections that do we help to foster not just with with our 287 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,040 offices but also among private sector partners. 288 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,960 So yeah, it was really special. It was, it was such an 289 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:02,920 incredible team to be a part of. And I think one thing that is 290 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,280 evident of how how just just how special it was, is that we have 291 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,880 all continued to try to work together as much as possible. 292 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:14,960 I have, I have a client that is a former colleague. 293 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:18,360 I have many, many colleagues that I work with across my 294 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,720 accounts as a consultant who are former colleagues. 295 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:26,960 And I, you know, we all, I think, seek any opportunity to 296 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:31,560 work together because we built such tremendous trust amongst 297 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:36,720 ourselves during those years. And the culture was so special 298 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:40,040 and the teamwork was so special, and everyone that came into the 299 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,160 organization was so talented. Yeah. 300 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,960 And I feel really lucky to have been a part of it. 100% I 301 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,520 actually remember you saying at one of our all hands meetings 302 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,760 that among the external affairs team that there was this like 303 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,720 really high level of emotional safety amongst us. 304 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,560 And I remember that was like the exact phrase that you used. 305 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,800 It's something that we don't talk about enough with teamwork, 306 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:04,840 right? And how we collaborate. 307 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:08,440 Like it has to start from this basis of comfort with each other 308 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,000 and, and a sense of safety. And that like we can share 309 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,320 honestly with each other. And that, I think is like one of 310 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:15,320 the reasons why we are as, as you say, forever. 311 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,200 Colleagues, we really are. So when it came time to build 312 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,160 the brand for Energy Empire, of course you were the first person 313 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,280 who came to mind. You and I reconnected. 314 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,400 So when I first came to you with the idea, first of all, the 315 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,200 podcast had a different name. It was not at FirstEnergy 316 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:31,760 Empire. We had a different name, but it 317 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:34,560 was too common. So we switched over to This is 318 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:36,840 our brand. When I first approached you 319 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,920 about it, what did you think I was trying to make this feel 320 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:42,960 like, with the understanding that you didn't immediately love 321 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,720 it? I knew that you meant energy 322 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,760 empire in the sense of like a business empire. 323 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:52,360 And it was about something like a confident narrative, A 324 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:55,200 narrative that is optimistic that we're putting out, you 325 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,480 know, something that works against the doom and gloom. 326 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,720 And it's like we're going to build an energy empire that's 327 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,400 based on clean energy, that's going to change the world and 328 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,200 change the course of humanity. I got all that, but you have to 329 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,720 understand that. So I'm British American and I 330 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,240 have like 2 wolves inside of me. There's an American wolf. 331 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:12,960 And that was the one that understood what you meant. 332 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,480 And it's like, whoa, let's go. And then there's the British 333 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,440 wolf that was like, should, should, should we be doing that? 334 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,880 Like empires kind of a loaded word. 335 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,040 And and then Venezuela happened and then I felt like I had to 336 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,120 say something. But, you know, you guys know 337 00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:32,280 what you're doing. You know your brand and yeah, 338 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,960 you, you were right. So like we can calm that British 339 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,800 wolf down. The American wins for today. 340 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,360 And it's memorable. You know it. 341 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,560 The alliteration works. And I, yeah, I think like 342 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,680 everybody knows, knows the phrase energy empire now. 343 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,240 It's so hats off to you. Thank you. 344 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,360 I appreciate that. I know you briefly referenced 345 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:58,800 the LPO posters and of course the LPO kind of the visual 346 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,360 language of those posters was an early reference point for us. 347 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,720 So what was it about that work that we wanted to carry into 348 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,040 this? And maybe for our listeners who 349 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,440 aren't familiar with that poster series, can you just kind of 350 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:13,760 explain it a little bit? Yeah. 351 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,560 So I think there was an original series of posters in maybe like 352 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,640 2009. Hopefully Lee isn't going to 353 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,000 message me after this and say actually it was 2011. 354 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,600 The LPO did this series of posters of different 355 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:30,000 technologies that that the office was funding projects in. 356 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:32,320 And then they were kind of resuscitated, I guess, when 357 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,240 Jigger arrived at the LPO and we did this kind of second series. 358 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,080 So there was like a poster showing geothermal energy. 359 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,920 There was an EV1, there was like a supply chains one, nuclear 360 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:49,520 one, and they were in the style of the like WPA screen printed 361 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,520 kind of like the national parks posters. 362 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,560 So like flat colors, very epic landscapes. 363 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,480 And you can see like energy workers often in the imagery, 364 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,560 they thread this needle between being really down to earth and 365 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,440 like really connecting with regular people, but also be 366 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:08,680 incredibly optimistic and they capture that forward-looking, 367 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,840 you know, very American mindset that we will recognize and love 368 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:15,800 from those vintage posters. So one of the ideas that we had 369 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,800 was to kind of do something similar, like a scene of some 370 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,760 kind where you could see energy workers or construction workers, 371 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,480 you know, building some kind of industrial plant or doing some 372 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,120 kind of clean energy project or maybe climbing a transition 373 00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:31,840 pole. But we ended up deciding that 374 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,320 obviously, because as I said earlier, this is an artwork that 375 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,560 needs to work at small scales and it needs to be iconic and 376 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,760 memorable that doing a scene probably wasn't quite the right 377 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,520 direction. But we did keep the the visual 378 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,840 style of that, like screen printed solid colors and a kind 379 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,000 of vintage feel. Yes, as well as kind of the 380 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,600 color palette we really we yes, which was really important and I 381 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:01,040 love how bright and kind of unexpected and anti B to B clean 382 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:06,040 energy startup kind of feel, but it has I love those posters so 383 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:07,920 much. They're so meaningful to me. 384 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,720 People still talk about them and I know you were you told your 385 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:15,400 poster anecdote and I have to tell mine, which is I happen to 386 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:20,760 be in Ashland, VA one day for a random unrelated reason, but I. 387 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:25,280 Popped into Dominion Energy's Co working like startup incubator 388 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:26,880 space that they have there in Ashland. 389 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,840 Just seeking a desk for the day. And I walked in and I guess this 390 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,720 isn't something that people do like they have startups that are 391 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,880 like residents there. And I didn't realize that. 392 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,400 I thought it was just a Co working space. 393 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,560 But I walked in and kind of explained who I was and I was 394 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,320 like, can I just crowds here for the day and like to use your 395 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,160 Wi-Fi? And they were very gracious and 396 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,560 they set me up with an office. I walk into the office and it's 397 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,720 just wrapped with the LPO posters. 398 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:57,080 And yes, and this was a couple of months after we had left 399 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,360 after the end of the Biden administration and so many of us 400 00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:04,520 had departed, including myself had left LPO at the end of the 401 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,920 administration. We had this very cohesive team 402 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,400 and we all felt very close. And there was very much so a 403 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,680 feeling that we were breaking up the band and we weren't ready to 404 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,040 go. Like it was a very sad moment 405 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,800 when we left the building, the Forest Hall building. 406 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,000 And so I was still very emotionally attached. 407 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,560 I still am emotionally attached to to LPO, but I was very 408 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,360 emotionally attached to the work that we did. 409 00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:31,400 So it just was very powerful for me being completely out of 410 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,800 context in the most random place and just walking into this 411 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,280 office and like seeing the posters, I was delighted. 412 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,000 I texted a few people. I don't know if I texted you, 413 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,880 but I definitely took photos and sent them to multiple people 414 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,160 from our team. And that has happened in other 415 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,200 places too, that I have hopped on a Zoom call with someone I've 416 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,400 never met before, and one of our posters is framed behind them on 417 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:52,920 the wall. Happens all the time. 418 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,800 Yeah, they're really cool. I'm going to send this to Lee 419 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,240 because I really, I hope he hears this like. 420 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,960 Yes, shout out to Lee Farrell, who I believe is still doing 421 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,200 some work for that office and we like fully support him and not 422 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:06,360 and the folks that are still there. 423 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,440 So as we were designing the logo, one tension we kept coming 424 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,960 back to was that I wanted something that was symbolic and 425 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,320 resonant, but not too literal or too on the nose. 426 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,000 We also spent time trying to make this feel American and 427 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:26,480 powerful without tipping into it being cheesy, cliche, or weird 428 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,040 empire slash Rome energy, which is actually a direction that we 429 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,200 went in at one point. So what kind of felt hardest to 430 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,560 solve there? It's a great question That kind 431 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,480 of goes back to your first question of what did I think 432 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,840 about the name? Like, I think the word Empire 433 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,880 was the sticking point, and it's both the, like, the success of 434 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,480 the name, but also it was the thing that we had to work 435 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,720 hardest to get right visually. The reason why we mentioned Rome 436 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,440 and, like, started throwing that around as an idea was because I 437 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,240 think it was Simon, our producer, your producer, sorry, 438 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,400 who said, you know, maybe we could do something with Roman 439 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,440 architecture because there's all this neoclassical architecture 440 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,720 in DC and it speaks to kind of the connection between 441 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,160 government and energy. And yeah, we threw a couple of 442 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,360 ideas around. There was like, a plinth with 443 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:13,520 the sun on top of it that didn't have legs. 444 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,400 And I knew it didn't have legs, but one of my first questions 445 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,640 when we talked about the name was how comfortable are you with 446 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,920 imagery that is American like? And I threw out the idea what if 447 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:28,000 we did just spitballing like a flag with lightning bolts 448 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,840 instead of stars, which again was a terrible idea. 449 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,880 I don't know why I even threw it out there because I'm very anti 450 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,920 lightning bolt. Are you very? 451 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:39,760 I didn't know that. I did the branding for Deploy 452 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,800 action and I had this whole thing with Ana, but I was like, 453 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:44,600 please don't make me put a lightning bolt in it. 454 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,280 Like there are lightning bolts everywhere. 455 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,120 It's time to put down the lightning bolt. 456 00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:49,880 We can get into that later as well. 457 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,680 The like the imagery generally and clean energy. 458 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,600 I had a sleepless night where I was thinking about all these 459 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:57,560 different American symbols because you were keen. 460 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,560 You were like, yeah, let's make it patriotic. 461 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,560 We don't want this symbolism and this imagery to be completely Co 462 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:05,800 opted. And you know, we, it belongs to 463 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,640 us too, right? Like we're Americans and clean 464 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,680 energy, like these technologies come from America. 465 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:14,600 And so we wanted to signal that. So I had this one sleepless 466 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,760 night where I was like making a list of all these different 467 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,160 symbols that we could draw on, like the American eagle, cowboy 468 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,800 hats, flags, stars and stripes. And each one I was just like, 469 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,400 Nope, Nope, that one's not going to work. 470 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,720 Process of elimination. And then the Statue of Liberty 471 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,880 just popped into my head and it felt perfect. 472 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:39,400 Like it's the perfect symbol of America because it hasn't been 473 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,000 Co opted by left or right. It's still something that speaks 474 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,000 to all of us universally. And it's something that speaks 475 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,000 to the like the highest ideals of America, right? 476 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,680 Like it's enlightenment. She's holding this torch is like 477 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,560 a beacon of progress and light. It was the first thing that 478 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,040 people saw, you know, when they arrived at Ellis Island that 479 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,400 welcomed them into America. It just, yeah, that felt like 480 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,040 the best angle to go down was a no brainer. 481 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,400 And also, not to get super philosophical, but she's holding 482 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,720 this torch, right? That's like light and heat. 483 00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:17,280 It's a form of energy, and energy is the story of progress. 484 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,800 And that's something that's all, like, very intimately wrapped up 485 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,960 with the story of America. So it just felt like the perfect 486 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,160 kind of continuation of that. But the first idea was to have 487 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,160 her holding a lightning bolt. I'm nothing if not completely 488 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,280 inconsistent with my views because that was like kind of a 489 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,600 just an evolution of the torch, right? 490 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,440 Like she's just holding the symbol of energy more generally. 491 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,000 But I raised that with you guys. We had our first feedback call 492 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,040 and we felt like we hadn't really found anything to any 493 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:46,880 threads to pull on and we needed to kind of go back to the 494 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,320 drawing board. And I was like, well, what about 495 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:50,800 this one with the Statue of Liberty? 496 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,880 And you guys are like, yeah, we like it, but it's a bit earnest. 497 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,720 It's a bit too serious. So then I was like, OK, what if 498 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:04,240 she's holding up a power cable? And Simon immediately went, I 499 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:05,360 like it. It's cheeky. 500 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,920 Yeah. I mean, I think for me, I what I 501 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,280 liked about it, I do think that even from the first round, and I 502 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,720 know that we're going to cut into this video like some of 503 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,840 your early design options. I think early on, I really loved 504 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,600 how you had to look at it for a second to realize that it was 505 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,120 Lady Liberty because you just see like the very top of her 506 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:33,760 crown and her hand. But then it was so clearly 507 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,280 brilliant once we figured out like, oh, this is what we're 508 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,680 looking at here. And I think we maybe inched her 509 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,480 up a little bit. So you got a little bit more 510 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:43,360 crown. So it was like slightly more 511 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,640 clear what you were looking at. It's the perfect combination of 512 00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:51,240 very American Ericana, very patriotic. 513 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,480 We weren't shy about the empire piece of our name. 514 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,920 Each word in that name is working very hard. 515 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,960 And I know we felt comfortable leaning into it because one of 516 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,840 the things that led Jigger and I through our journey as we were 517 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,320 frankly working on this podcast for all of last year, trying to 518 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,320 figure out what it would be, is that the clean energy industry 519 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:19,320 continues to act like it is this small sector without a lot of 520 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,000 power. And that we want to see clean 521 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,000 energy step into its power. And that when we think about 522 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,440 what we're building it, it truly is an empire. 523 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,600 And we really are transitioning in changing the planet for the 524 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,720 better. I mean, combating the biggest 525 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,520 global challenge that is, is facing our generation and 526 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:42,080 climate change and also building tremendous wealth on, you know, 527 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,360 doing something good that we need to do in order to protect 528 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,520 the future of this planet. So I think it's a powerful idea. 529 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,480 And we wanted to lead with a powerful symbol, visual symbol. 530 00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:57,400 So for people who aren't designers, kind of give us like 531 00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,880 a brief overview of what your process looks like. 532 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,440 Yeah. Well, you mentioned that you had 533 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,320 come to me originally with a different name earlier last 534 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,240 year. So I'd already had an 535 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,080 opportunity to like take on some of the background and the 536 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,440 context with your thinking and let that bake on the back 537 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,480 burner. And then I think we had our 538 00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,280 first call about energy empire right before the the Christmas 539 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,480 holiday. So again, it's like the more I 540 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,040 work as a designer, the more I realize that it's very much 541 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,800 about like the overall process. If you look at it, it's like 542 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,880 you're digging a flower bed and you, you know, like you're 543 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,200 adding stuff to the soil and you're getting it all ready. 544 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:35,840 And then you have to like walk away. 545 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,920 And then when you come back, a seed will have magically 546 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,920 appeared in the flower bed and it will start growing. 547 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,480 But you, you have to like, have the process of walking away and 548 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,480 letting it just bake and develop like a Stew in the back of your 549 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,920 head. Because if you try and force it 550 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,160 and like push it forwards, you just, you start going around in 551 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,160 circles and you get frustrated with it. 552 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,640 So I came back to it like very fresh in January. 553 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,320 And as a first step, I with this kind of like illustrative work, 554 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,120 I like to come to you with just pencil drawings. 555 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,920 Like keep it really sketchy. You have to kind of give a 556 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,400 client like one problem at a time to think about South. 557 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:13,960 Instead of showing you something in full color that I've spent a 558 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,040 ton of time on that might not have legs, it's showing you 559 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,200 something kind of quick and dirty that encourages you to 560 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,080 like bring your imagination to it as well. 561 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,720 And I want you to focus on just like the idea to start with and 562 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,960 maybe the composition to some extent as well, but not talking 563 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,280 about color, not talking about fonts, just which is the idea 564 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,160 that we want to develop here. And then it's just iterations 565 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,520 from then on out, right? So we'll show you some of the 566 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,040 behind the scenes pictures, which I never thought would get 567 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,440 public viewing. So they're not great to look at, 568 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,800 but that's not the point, right? It's, it's about the idea 569 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,040 developing. So I started to introduce a bit 570 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,320 of color and just show you some like low res versions of what it 571 00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:54,680 could look like. And we played around with 572 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,840 different compositions. We tried showing more of Lady 573 00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,680 Liberty. And there's one version in 574 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,960 particular where you see like almost all of her body. 575 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,600 I think that was just getting way too serious and like 576 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,880 detracting from the humor of the option that we finally went 577 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,920 with. So it's just testing different 578 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,240 things. But a lot of the time I know in 579 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,960 in the back of my head which is the best idea and which is the 580 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,720 best direction. And you're showing other options 581 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,560 almost to just convince the client that the, the, the right 582 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,240 way is the right way, if that makes sense. 583 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,360 And also to do with due diligence and like, make sure 584 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:29,640 you've turned all the stones over. 585 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,920 But half of the thing with being a designer is the actual skills. 586 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,400 And then half of it is the process. 587 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,440 And like refining your own process and making the right 588 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,600 judgment on when to put out another option or when to put 589 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,680 out your professional opinion that this is the way to go. 590 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,720 So always learning. Awesome. 591 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,200 So now it's out there and it's it's, I mean, I'm really 592 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:53,400 enjoying it. I love it. 593 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,640 I am. My favorite color is yellow. 594 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,320 So I'm very happy that my yeah, I got my yellow font, my yellow 595 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,480 name. But what's it like now? 596 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,520 Seeing people engaged with the brands and having opinions about 597 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,240 it, including about the number of prongs on the plug, which was 598 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,840 one of the first criticisms we got. 599 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:17,120 I know like, calm down guys. You know, it's great. 600 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,320 I mean, it's always scary. Like sharing ideas are scary and 601 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,880 sharing finished work is scary, but it's just really exciting to 602 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,960 see how much it does resonate. And I think it it has achieved, 603 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,000 you know, the the brief that you just laid out about putting out 604 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,800 this positive story and helping clean energy step into its 605 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,440 power, but also it being a very human symbol and something that 606 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,960 we can all relate to as Americans in our own way. 607 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,040 So yeah, it's great. Well, one reason I wanted to 608 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,120 have you on is making this brand made me think a lot about how 609 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,640 stale a lot of the visual and editorial language of energy can 610 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,400 be. A lot of the brands can feel 611 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,680 visually interchangeable, so I was adamant that for our first 612 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,800 meeting I wanted this brands to clearly stand out, which I think 613 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,040 we achieved. One thing I really cared about 614 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,400 was making the show feel legible beyond energy insiders. 615 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,080 So how does visual identity help with that? 616 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,160 Yeah, this is a a really great question and I think the entire 617 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,360 industry is doing a lot of soul searching around this. 618 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,160 We're aware that there's a problem, and I also think that 619 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,720 we are beating ourselves up maybe a little more than we need 620 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:27,320 to because to some extent, I feel like there is a question of 621 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,000 just timing, right? The history of science is like 622 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,000 full of examples of ideas that didn't take flight because it 623 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,320 just wasn't the right time for them. 624 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,000 And communications has a role to play in making it the right 625 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,560 time. But there's also just to some 626 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,480 extent, we're now, you know, in this crazy, like as we speak and 627 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,560 record this video, an absolutely crazy geopolitical situation 628 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,520 where, as James was saying in your, I think most recent 629 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,640 episode, the clean energy has never looked so good. 630 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,760 And to some extent, like we're just now in this situation where 631 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,520 the costs are down, the Security benefits are obvious. 632 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,240 And it's like the moment that we've been waiting for, but I do 633 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,040 think there are like sort of two buckets of like issues with 634 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:12,800 communication that I see with clean energy wire. 635 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,800 It's like, on the one hand, it's an incredibly complicated 636 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,720 sector. Like I feel like I've been in 637 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,600 the sector now for about 3 years and I feel like I'm still 638 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:26,320 entering the learning what I don't know phase of energy and 639 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,840 how it all works. And, and then we add to that mix 640 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:33,800 like all of these acronyms like SMRS and VPPS and PP as, and it 641 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,440 just, you know, washes over most people and, and it's, it's 642 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,040 really hard to connect with. So I think we can work harder to 643 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,200 just bring it back down to earth. 644 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,200 And I wanted to shout out what's the T here, which is this new 645 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,400 series on LinkedIn by our ex colleague Zenab Mirza, who is 646 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,920 also LPO. And they're like a really good 647 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,480 example of how they'll talk about the like, lofty 648 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,000 complicated energy policy or whatever it is, but then they 649 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,800 tie it to what does it actually mean for everyday people? 650 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,200 And they use like pop culture references to make that 651 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,840 translation. So that's such a good example. 652 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,480 And then the second bucket is like the moralism and the doom 653 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,400 and gloom and like climate in general. 654 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,320 It's been this like issue of if you don't realize that this is a 655 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,080 problem and see it the way I see it, then you're a bad person. 656 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,440 Like, how can you not want to fight climate change? 657 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,760 And there's this, you know, if you've got a solar panel on your 658 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:27,400 roof, it means you're a better person. 659 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,199 And you know, we call it a climate crisis. 660 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:32,840 And I think to some extent there's like an appropriate 661 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,600 level of urgency there. But it's also any psychologist 662 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,080 will tell you that operating from a place of fear and 663 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,000 negativity is like not a good spot to be making decisions in, 664 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,480 right? So moving away from that 665 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,639 baggage, I guess at this, especially at this moment now 666 00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:52,360 that we're seeing that the moral and the environmental reasons 667 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:54,719 for clean energy are obviously still important. 668 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,480 Like it's a no brainer. Of course we want sustainable 669 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,600 energy because the alternative is whatever the alternative is. 670 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,400 But the economic arguments now and the the energy security 671 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,480 arguments are so salient that I think that's what we really need 672 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,880 to focus in on. This is kind of like a follow on 673 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,520 to the same question, and I have an answer here as well, but I'm 674 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,800 very curious to hear what you have to say. 675 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,040 If you were advising the biggest clean energy companies, what 676 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,480 would you tell them to do or to stop doing immediately? 677 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,440 OK, I have two things. So one, we don't need to see any 678 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:32,400 more like bland pictures of green woods and solar panels and 679 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:36,720 wind farms and like, you know, beautiful pristine landscapes 680 00:35:36,720 --> 00:35:39,080 that don't actually mean anything to the people looking 681 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,960 at them, right? Like if you are a utility or a 682 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,240 project developer like you, if you're a place based company, 683 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,320 then use imagery of that place. I think that's so powerful. 684 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,560 Like we were just talking about our own connection to the 685 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,000 landscape that we grew up in. And this is something that I've 686 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,320 been thinking about for a while and I've talked with Zenim about 687 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,160 as well. But I read this book a few years 688 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,360 ago called How to Be a Conservative by Roger Scruton, 689 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,400 because I wanted to like engage with, you know, a really good 690 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,360 argument for conservativism. And he has a whole chapter about 691 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,480 environmentalism and this concept of oikophilia, which is 692 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,280 the the word oikophilia comes from oikos, which is Greek. 693 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,560 It's the root word of eco, like in economy or in ecology and 694 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,680 Philly, obviously his love of, so it means like love of the 695 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,200 home. And the point he makes is like 696 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:32,800 conservatives are wycophilists and he can't like understand why 697 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,680 conservatives aren't the owners of environmentalism because they 698 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:37,720 should be. Like there's a whole kind of 699 00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:41,920 Nexus here of wanting to protect the landscape that you grew up 700 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,200 in that's specific to you and your identity that I feel like 701 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,040 clean energy could really be tapping into. 702 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,760 It's like placemaking and place keeping and really drawing on 703 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,640 the narratives of that local people have about their 704 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,120 communities and, and why their landscapes are worth protecting. 705 00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:00,240 So like moving away from generic imagery would be good. 706 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,160 And the other thing is just, and this might be a bit of a hot 707 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:08,400 take, but I think net 0 is not the most inspiring phrase and we 708 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,120 all know it. And I, I would love to see clean 709 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,560 energy just like move away from the idea of net 0. 710 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,920 This is my American wolf beating the the British wolf in me and 711 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,440 saying like net infinite clean energy is like the printing 712 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,240 press. It's like the steam engine. 713 00:37:26,240 --> 00:37:30,800 Like this is a step change in how humans produce and power 714 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,720 like everything in our lives. And it's putting us onto a 715 00:37:34,720 --> 00:37:37,800 trajectory where, like, there's this book Interstellar, that 716 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,200 says that clean energy is one of these technologies that's going 717 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,240 to, like, get us to the next level where we become an 718 00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:46,640 interstellar civilization. And that's such an exciting 719 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,200 narrative. And I feel like we could really 720 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,600 lean into that and take Khalif out of Elon's book as well. 721 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,800 And just, you know, he made electric cars look really sexy, 722 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:56,600 so we should be doing that as well. 723 00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,120 Yeah, I love it. I mean, I'm with you and moving 724 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,720 away from centering everything around climate change and 725 00:38:04,720 --> 00:38:07,920 instead focusing on the fact that these are superior 726 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,200 technologies in every way. Exactly. 727 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,280 Are and so we do not need climate as our backstop in order 728 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:20,720 to compete. And and so I think that that's 729 00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:23,480 something that in general our sector should move away from 730 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,720 because it can turn people away. I mean, I think for me advising 731 00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:31,440 clean energy companies, the number one issue that I see and 732 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:35,040 it's what you're you, you gave an artist answer and it was so 733 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,800 beautiful, Rosie. And I am going to give like a 734 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,240 consultants answer and like an executives answer, which is that 735 00:38:42,240 --> 00:38:45,680 I just think that companies dramatically under invest in 736 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,560 communications and marketing dramatically under invest. 737 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,880 We are just not spending enough or doing enough. 738 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,760 I can't even tell you how many companies I have engaged with 739 00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:02,640 that have one mid level communicator with like 8 years 740 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:08,040 of experience doing 12 jobs. And there's no budget for visual 741 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,480 anything with a related to visual identity. 742 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,080 So when you're talking about having photography, like any 743 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,520 type of visual assets associated with the places where their 744 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,400 projects are actually built doesn't exist. 745 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,320 And they have one person that's doing all their social media, 746 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,760 their website, their branding, their media relations and all of 747 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:32,520 marketing, all of the marketing functions as well, all of their 748 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:36,440 events, everything. And then wondering why no one 749 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,480 has ever heard of them. It's wild. 750 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,440 And I think that there's just a lack of understanding of the 751 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,800 role of communications, which I believe should be an executive 752 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:49,520 level function and a communications experts should be 753 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:55,280 sitting in every boardroom and reporting directly to the CEO so 754 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,720 that we can, you know, help to mitigate risk as well as help 755 00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:02,880 companies to embrace every opportunity in front of them. 756 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:08,760 And so when we are relegated to a supportive function and 757 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:14,200 dramatically under invested in, we are not going to build power 758 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,240 as a sector and. You know who's doing a great job 759 00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:21,440 with us? Oil and gas, Oil and gas. 760 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,560 I wish I had the numbers, the tip of my fingers. 761 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,920 This is when I miss Jigger Shaw, who his brain is an encyclopedia 762 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:30,680 and he would be like, the oil and gas industry spends 50 times 763 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,080 more than the clean energies. It's something like that, y'all. 764 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,000 I'll look it up and share it later in the show notes or 765 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,320 something. But it's a chronic problem. 766 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:42,840 And to give a couple of examples, I've been very lucky 767 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,480 to be involved with some really powerful storytelling, 768 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:50,400 particularly at the time that I was at LPO and for the biggest 769 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:56,720 moments that we had as a brand. So, for example, Jigger appeared 770 00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:59,640 on the Ezra Klein Show with Rob Meyer. 771 00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:02,960 We did one of Scott Galloway's podcasts. 772 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:08,080 I pitched the Ezra Klein Show for three years. 773 00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,600 Wow. I reached out. 774 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,480 I was turned down. Ezra Klein turned me down on 775 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,640 multiple occasions with multiple different ideas. 776 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,560 He shut the door in my face. I got very close multiple times. 777 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,120 But meanwhile, I had fostered a really strong relationship with 778 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,400 Rob Meyer. So when he had the opportunity 779 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:30,360 to guest host that podcast, he reached out to to us, Scott 780 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,840 Galloway. That took more than a year. 781 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,560 It took repeated follow-ups. Mind you, the producer did not 782 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:41,520 acknowledge any of my outreach. It took multiple very, very well 783 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,360 considered and thought through and deeply researched angles. 784 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:48,760 I believe it was actually my one of my colleagues, Molly 785 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,040 Morrissey, who ended up actually like nagging that first response 786 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,400 from somebody there after I was like, I've already tried three 787 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,720 times. We need to try something new. 788 00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:00,240 Maybe you send the e-mail, who knows, Maybe they're sick of 789 00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:02,920 hearing from me. It takes a long time. 790 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:06,920 And so you have to have the team that has the expertise that can 791 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:11,400 invest the amount of time that it takes to do that work and it 792 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,040 takes a lot. And it was, that was after 793 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:18,400 hundreds and hundreds of media hits in the trade media and 794 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:23,600 growing a media profile with four people working full time on 795 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,680 media relations for years. And we had a $400 billion 796 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,160 budget. So you would think that it would 797 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,640 be easy to get in those rooms, but it wasn't. 798 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:37,280 And that's what it takes. And so, you know, I think I have 799 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,600 a lot of times when I talk to prospective clients, their 800 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,840 expectations are just very unrealistic. 801 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,760 Like, you know, I cannot come in for 20 hours a month to support 802 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:50,200 you and, and land you something like that. 803 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:54,160 Like the it's, it's so much work, so much, you know, 804 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,240 thoughtful narrative building over such a long time. 805 00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:00,480 And, you know, it's the same thing with visual identity. 806 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,960 It does take a lot of shoulder and a lot of commitment. 807 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,080 So I would just really like to see companies take it more 808 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,200 seriously and really, really invest and then see what comes 809 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,280 from that. Yeah 100% and and please stop 810 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:18,280 using AI to generate images of janky wind turbines with 2 1/2 811 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:20,960 blades. So every time you do that, an 812 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,000 Angel dies. Oh my God, I'm dying to see 813 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:26,320 that. If that is real, have. 814 00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,480 You seen these? They're all over my LinkedIn. 815 00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,000 Oh my God. OK, so now you're doing this 816 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:35,320 work at Constructive, which is specifically about building 817 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,400 alignment across the energy and climate space through strategic 818 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:42,080 convenings and network building. So does that experience kind of 819 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,920 inform how you see this gap in comms and branding in our 820 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:47,240 sector? Yeah. 821 00:43:47,240 --> 00:43:51,080 I mean, I see it all as it's all on a continuum. 822 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,720 It's all like to the same end. So Constructive's mission is to 823 00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:58,960 build alignment and to basically create like infrastructure for 824 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,160 collaboration to happen between the public and private sector or 825 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,960 kind of between government, industry and finance. 826 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,280 Like those are the big three and all the other enabling actors as 827 00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,920 well. Like I mentioned earlier, we 828 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,120 were talking about psychological safety and you know what, what 829 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:16,960 kind of mindset you need to be in to like work with somebody, 830 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,800 especially across the aisle or whatever, you know, whether 831 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,360 that's politically or because they are a buyer and you're a 832 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,400 seller and they have like the opposite mindset to you. 833 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:31,440 So to get there, you, you need people to be in a space of, of 834 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,320 comfort and curiosity. And I think from my perspective, 835 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:39,000 and I know we, you have more of a media relations perspective 836 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:44,720 and I'm more of a like branding perspective, but I see my job as 837 00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:47,440 kind of getting people onto that shared wavelength. 838 00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:50,880 That's like a tunnel between where you are and where you want 839 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,720 the people to be and where they are currently. 840 00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,720 And you're not just like building the shortest tunnel. 841 00:44:56,720 --> 00:44:58,680 That's the widest tunnel. And they can see like straight 842 00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,960 where they're going so that they get to the same place that you 843 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,640 are at. Like you want to build a tunnel 844 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,240 that is appealing. Like if you were out walking on 845 00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:11,640 a trail and there's a fork in the trail, Like what makes you 846 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,600 choose one fork over another? It's not the one that's like the 847 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,440 straightest and most straightforward and like you can 848 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,720 see right through to the end. It's the trail that like goes 849 00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:23,960 around a corner and there's like dappled light and it looks 850 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,800 interesting and it looks like an adventure and you want to follow 851 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:31,200 the trail and see where it goes. And so I really see my role at 852 00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:35,040 constructive and our our role is a very design forward nonprofit 853 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:39,320 as creating that pathway, like architects, literally to get 854 00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:43,080 them to that spot where they can then collaborate constructively 855 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:48,240 towards deploying clean energy. So we have a chief architect 856 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,080 who's the the four of us, we we will work together on deploy. 857 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,400 This is how it happened. So Susan Kish, Jonah Wagner, 858 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,280 Jason Ramos and I kind of talked about spending this off and 859 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,440 making it an independent nonprofit after the change in 860 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,000 administration, obviously. And Jason and I really worked 861 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,960 together on creating these shared experiences. 862 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,000 When we say, like, architects of collaboration, we don't mean, 863 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,680 you know, puppet masters pulling marionettes and like, telling 864 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:16,040 people how they're going to work together. 865 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,880 It's about getting them in a space and taking them on a 866 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,760 journey, telling them a story. It's all like blended together 867 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,000 to architect the experience. I hate using the word architect 868 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:28,560 as a verb. I. 869 00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:31,400 Think it's beautiful that kind of the legacy of the deploy 870 00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,520 conferences that we put together that we discussed earlier were 871 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:37,560 just such a special moment, not just for our team, but also for 872 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,320 attendees and folks in the industry. 873 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,240 And you all have really carried the DNA of those conferences 874 00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:45,360 forward into Constructive and in the events that you're helping 875 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,480 to design now. So before we let you go, what 876 00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,080 are you working on now? What's what's constructive got 877 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,560 coming up? We have DeVos states locked in, 878 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,920 so we're collaborating with the DER task force again to Co 879 00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,280 produce DeVos this year, which as everyone knows is like the 880 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:06,280 most exciting energy event on the calendar, lots of hot takes 881 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,880 about distributed energy. So that's going to be September 882 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,600 17th to the 19th in New York City, again right before Climate 883 00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,360 Week. So make sure you sign up for 884 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,240 updates for that. And then we also have a couple 885 00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:20,560 of things coming up in London that we, we haven't announced 886 00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:25,200 yet, but we're going to be doing a summit in May with the WRI 887 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,640 Polski Energy Center on meeting energy demand with, with clean 888 00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:33,120 energy generation. And then we're also partnering 889 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,880 with Ember in June to do a summit on Electrotech, which is 890 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,600 super exciting. It's not just convenings and 891 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:44,040 like big large scale events. We're also developing dialogues 892 00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,080 that kind of like continue the legacy of the deploy dialogues 893 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:48,800 and the lift off reports to some extent. 894 00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:52,200 So more to come on that. But we are, we have kind of 895 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,560 upcoming programs that do deeper dives into specific technology 896 00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:03,200 areas like clean firm power and how to scale up deployment of 897 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:07,560 those. That all sounds great otherwise. 898 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,720 I know you're also a very prolific visual artist and I 899 00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:13,640 love it when I see your art pop up in my LinkedIn feed. 900 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,120 But where can people find you and follow your work? 901 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:21,240 Well, I have a website you can check out. rosiejewel.com 902 00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,720 definitely needs an update. I'm off of Instagram because I 903 00:48:25,720 --> 00:48:29,920 just can't deal with the prospect of AI stealing all of 904 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,800 my artwork. And you can't turn it off in 905 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,000 this country. There's like no way to just opt 906 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,280 out. If I was in the UK, I'd be able 907 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:42,040 to, but fun times. And then Constructive's website 908 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:44,880 isconstructive.org, so you can find us there and sign up for 909 00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:48,560 our newsletter to hear more about the events and convenience 910 00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:50,680 that we have coming up. Awesome. 911 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,280 Thank you Rosie so much for joining me. 912 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,520 It was so great to have you. And thank you for being here for 913 00:48:56,520 --> 00:48:59,840 my first solo episode. It was nice to have a friend on 914 00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,840 the other side. Such a pleasure. 915 00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:04,000 The pleasure was all mine, Jamie. 916 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:04,920 Thank you for having me.