Then we'll be done with this and then I'm going to give you one
more thing next week on this on this whole general idea.
And then we're going to move on to something else.
But the first thing that Josh Tyson, and I'm using his name
because he is kind of the de facto leader of this Neo,
Independent Baptist movement. That's what we would call it.
It's not what they're calling it.
They're calling it the new Independent Baptist movement,
but they he says, they're obsessed with the gospel and,
and again, I know like we said last week, it might sound a
little bit picky, but you become obsessed with anything and
you're going to end up. Up in a ditch on one side of the
road or the other. But it's we have to be all about
the gospel but they're not the only ones that are doing that
right there. Defining this new movement as if
the old movement was not worried about getting the message of the
Gospel out. And again then he kind of re
said that again in the second point which he said that they
were committed to preaching the gospel and the term that he used
was that the old independent? Fundamental Baptists are
prostituting the Bible and that can happen in whatever movement
you choose to hang out with. So we have to guard against that
that beam that that you know, as they point out the moats.
But ultimately what alarms me is a movement that's afraid to make
application to the truth and that's exactly what they're
doing. They're afraid to make
application to the truth because that would mean that they would
have to preach these things that they don't want to preach.
And we're not about that. We need to preach the gospel.
We need to apply the The gospel. We need to preach the Bible.
We need to apply the Bible. And then we finished up last
week by talking about the fact that he said, they are men of
unity who despised hyper separatism, which you could
really Define a saying men who don't like standards.
That's really what it comes down to.
And if you do then you're, you know, you are a hyper separatist
and all of these other things, we talked a lot about that
because he said it doesn't matter if you do get up on the
stage and you're in a pair of jeans or a tie or doesn't matter
if you decide to use hymns or contemporary Christian music and
it does matter. It does matter.
And I'm not going to read re-preach.
A re talked about everything that we talked about last week.
So we're going to move on to the third thing or the fourth thing
that he said. And he said that they are turned
off by denominational politics. And I think the simplest thing
to say is I too am turned off by denominational politics.
It's not about how big my Ministry is compared to yours.
It's not about how you know it's not about self-promotion or
Pastor worship. It's not about what school I
went to versus what's School. You went to, right?
There's good men. If God wanted every single
person to go to the same school, there'd be one school in the
United States. Right there are other schools
there for a reason. God, God had them and and good
men, that established colleges in different places and
established different Ministries in different places.
There would be a one Church in the United States.
If God wanted everybody to go to that church, but he's got
churches all over the place. He's got different things, all
over the place. I grew up at Fair Haven.
And it was a good church with a good pastor, dr.
Volgman, I thought he was the most famous man in all of
America and I started traveling. And on deputation.
I traveled in the Ensemble and we came into churches who had
never heard of them before and I thought, what bubble are these
people living in either, they're just got saved or they, they're
living in some kind of bubble, but what I found out was I was
living in a bubble. There is a life outside of Fair
Haven that I didn't know anything about right, and
nothing wrong with that as I'm growing.
Growing up in it necessarily. But I realized there was more to
Christianity than Fairhaven and just because you didn't go to
Fair Haven, doesn't mean that God can't use you just because
you didn't go to Fair Haven and you don't do it.
Exactly. The way they do, it doesn't mean
that God can't bless your ministry.
Right? And I think I had that mindset,
you know, if you're not a Fair Haven and you're in the wrong
Church, you know, and God opened my eyes up to that to see it.
Look, there's a lot of churches in a lot of places that are
doing a lot of good things for the cause of Jesus Christ, but
for Most part my experience traveling in churches around
this country. Over a period of probably about
six years between traveling with the ensembles and, and sing in
the singing group and then deputation and all his stuff
pastors, young and old. There's a lot of good churches
out there. Now there's a lot of churches
that are compromising and I'll be honest with you, just in the
seven or eight years since I've been here and, and looking back
at some of the churches that we were in they've compromise since
then. A lot of them I was in 15 or 20
years ago and they've completely changed since then.
So, you know, not all of them are sticking by the stuff.
Not all of them are doing what's right.
But to me it seems that originally Josh theis was was
praising the old ifb guys. But then he started you know to
suddenly attack all of them you know by only pointing out some
of the worst case scenarios in some of these churches.
And I'll be honest with you, there are a lot of old
independent fundamental Baptist Churches, who did a lot of
things that were wrong. That really hurt the cause of
Christ just because you claim to be independent fundamental
Baptist does not automatically make you right.
And there are a lot of churches that cause a lot of harm to
people but those cases can be found in every group of people
anywhere on the face of the planet.
It's not only in the independent fundamental Baptist movement.
Look at the what the Catholic church is dealing with right
now. They don't have the truth but
they're dealing with Scandal amongst their priests.
You go into some of these nondenominational mean.
Look at, look at Hillsong right? The, the very well-known
collapse of that whole thing. We have problems in any
denomination but I felt like, I felt.
Like Josh Titus is calling people like me a non gospel,
non-textual thieving legalist, whoever who only ever wants to
get everybody to look like me because I claim to be a Bible
believer that does not look like him, right?
And so, I mean that's kind of in that whole hyper Hyper
separatism label that he's putting on people but where I
would disagree with him on this point is that to say that all
ifb churches and I don't even like the term ifb but instead of
saying independent fundamental Baptist every time I'm going to
use that for now. But but that all of those
churches or even the majority of those churches have been that
way and and that only the new ifb churches are different.
That's an unfair assessment and honestly it sounds Very prideful
for him to say that there was a lot of good churches out there
that are still doing that are still doing what's, right?
And the thing is most of them are small and that's why you
don't hear about it. But all over this country dotted
all over the place. There are small churches that
are still sticking by the word of God that are still doing it.
The way that God says, it needs to be done.
And my father-in-law was a perfect example of that.
He was in the ministry for about 50 years.
As a pastor of an independent fundamental Baptist Church that
he actually took out of the Southern Baptist Church, the
Southern Baptist convention. They realized pretty early on
after he became a pastor of Gil, Grove Baptist Church.
Gill Grove was a Southern Baptist Church.
Well, it was actually started in 1843.
He was the first full-time Pastor that they had came in, in
1974 part time and then they hired him and brought him in
full time in 1976, but it was a Southern Baptist Church and he
realized pretty early on that. The southern Baptists were not
going in the right direction. So he pulled it out of the
Southern Baptist convention and became an independent Baptist.
Church. And, you know, I realized that
there's been a lot of man following and Pastor Worship in
certain churches, but I think it's unfair to say that that's
characterized our movement in the past to be lumped in with
some wacko who's a dictator and his church, you know?
And everybody has to go to him before they buy a car or, you
know, get a job or something like that.
That's you know, that does not characterize the, the average
independent fundamental Baptist pastor so somehow saying that my
Standards are old-fashioned and that I'm causing division by
living and talking and writing and preaching.
What I believe is biblical when isn't that exactly what he's
doing in his article, right? He's doing the exact same thing
that he's accusing us of and that that's and that article is
caused a lot of division itself. So don't just think that because
you're a young independent, fundamental Baptist, pastor that
you couldn't fall into to the pride of self-promotion through
tweets and Facebook pages and Instagram.
Post and everything else. There's a lot of that that's
going around and, you know, they're using these, they're
using these platforms which I'm not against somebody using a
platform for, you know, like Facebook or Instagram, or some
of these other things, nothing wrong with using that as a
platform but they use this platform to try to tell
everybody else what they're doing.
Wrong to make themselves. Sound humble.
But in actuality what they're doing is just trying to build
their own Empire and try to get trying to get a following behind
them and I could give you names. And I mean I'm thinking of All
right, now that I know who are exactly like that who fit right
into this category of this new new or Neo Independent Baptist
movement who are literally criticizing the older pastors
that whose churches they came out of and they're doing exactly
what they're criticizing these older pastures of doing.
And that is just trying to gather a following.
Now, it may not be that they're trying to amass, you know,
massive church but there are trying to get a massive
Following on On Facebook in these other places.
And how is it any different, right?
May God judge all our motives and find them to be pure.
That's what I have to say about being turned off by
denominational politics. Every one of us is going to
stand before God and we're not going to be judged by what
everybody, you know, viewed on the outside or perceived on the
outside. We're going to be judged by God
himself, who knows exactly what our motives are on the inside.
May God judge our motives and find them to be pure number
five. He said that they are dedicated
to fiscal accountability. And again, here's one that I'm
in complete agreement with a word to the wise though, to
think that because you might brand yourself as a new or an
old independent fundamental Baptist, preacher means that
you're any safer from giving in to temptation of fraud.
When it comes to money or being greedy or having Financial
improprieties, in your church would be unwise But by the grace
of God, we all live a life of character in this issue.
The fact that fiscal accountability by a pastor
hardly makes him an Neo or a new independent fundamental
Baptists. There have been plenty of men
over all these years and never got accused of stealing money
out of the offering plate, right?
Never got accused of financial misappropriation or something
like that but I will say that's a Temptation for anybody,
really? I mean you don't be a pastor,
you don't know. You, you know, you have a giant
wad of cash that you're dealing. With the Temptation is always
there to snag some of it, right? I mean, obviously by now and
being being mature Christians, we ought to be able to say no to
that and it's not even really a temptation, but you make that
happen by putting things in place to make it so that you're
not even in a position to take it, right?
I don't handle any of the money and our church.
My wife does all the budget. Josh and Brian do the counting.
Sarah takes the money to the bank.
It never touches my hands. And, and for good reason, I'm
not tempted to steal the money, but I don't even want it to look
like there is any possible way that I could get my hands on the
money, right? And, and again, if there's if I
know that there's no chance that either, there's any place where
I can even grab it, then the Temptation is not even there.
So Financial accountability is absolutely important.
In many Ministries have been destroyed.
By people who have who have been financially unaccountable and
financially. I mean, at the very least,
financially irresponsible at the very, you know, at the worst
purposely stealing things and taking it from God's house, you
remember, Joel Osteen member, they had six hundred sixty
thousand dollars that went missing.
You remember that? It was like after an Easter
Service or something six hundred and sixty thousand dollars that
just went missing. I mean, could you imagine that's
On Sundays offering you know? And and and I still don't know
if they ever found out who actually took it, but they found
that money. You know what I found it, they
had a leak in their bathroom and they had to take the wall apart
and they found all of that. Money in the wall in the
bathroom. I have no idea how they got it
in their, or how they were planning, to get it back out,
but somebody snuck it in there. And and that's how they found
it. They got all the money back but
anyway, just just to make sure that we are dedicated to that
fiscal accountability. Again, the fact that he is
saying that this is what defines our movement is essentially
saying, none of those old independent fundamental Baptists
were fiscally accountable, right?
And that's just it's false, it's false number six.
He said that the new independent fundamental Baptists are.
Well read and I should hope that.
No one would argue about being a well, read in the scriptures,
right? We all should be.
Now, I will say they're well-read in the wrong version
of the scriptures. A lot of these guys are all
turning away from I'm the King James Bible.
All right, and I call it the King James Bible because it's
not just a version of the Bible. It is the Bible and things that
are different, cannot be the same, right?
I just read an article today about the message, the message
became a very, very popular bible, with a lot of these Neo,
not even independent, fundamental Baptists, just the
Neo crowd, you know, a lot of these, a lot of these that you
kind of see their names and faces and, you know, they're
speaking in all these big national conferences and things
like that, but I mean, read through some of that message, it
is, it is. I mean, there's and I'm not
lying when I say this or exaggerating or stretching the
truth. There is cursing in there in the
place where Peter denied Christ and they said that he vehemently
denied it and everything else and I think the Bible even says
that he cursed to make them say, you know, so that they would
know they put a curse word in there, you know as quoting Peter
you know, and all these people were just all The message is
such a wonderful version of the Bible is such a easy to read and
blah, blah blah and all this stuff.
It is it changes the Bible so much that it doesn't even say
what the Bible says but anyway we should be well read in the
scriptures. But on the other hand, I'm all
for reading. I have a very large Library.
I've way too many books, but I appreciate the Council of older
Godly men to be careful what I read.
Especially if you're a new Christian or if you're not very
well grounded in what you believe you got to you, you have
to be very careful who you read and what you read Because very
easily. You will be swayed because a lot
of these guys that right are very persuasive writers, that's
why they're writing books and they can persuade you on any
topic about anything. And if you don't know what you
believe, then you can be very easily swayed on those things,
if you don't know. Well, what do you think about
this? Come asking me.
I'm not I'm not the, you know, I'm not the, I'm not a library
or a bookstore, but I do know who's good and who's not for the
most part. And if I don't, I'll find out,
you know, once you know what you believe, then there's nothing
wrong with reading some of these books and finding out what other
people are saying about it. So you know how for me.
So I know how better to to oppose what they're preaching
and teaching and a lot of of instances.
But I'm not saying that you can't read something to see what
the other side might say, you know, I mean, it's kind of the
same thing as reading like CNN or something like that and just
seeing what the Liberals have to say about this topic or whatever
else. And it kind of works the same
way, you know, just to hear what the other side is saying.
But I also realized that there will be there, most likely will
be something about something that I disagree with.
And just about every book that I read.
So I'm not reading the book saying, telling me what I need
to know, I'm reading these books and I'm comparing them with
scripture and making sure that what they're saying is correct.
Now there are certain authors that I've read enough of their
stuff that I will trust anything they write for the most part and
you know where I'm kind of trying to figure out a topic for
myself. And I'll go to them first
because I know that they're going to have a solid view on
that. There's authors that are like
that and there's all that. There's also authors who are
pretty good on some things and terrible and other things.
So you have to be very, very careful what you read.
I'm more fearful that this new independent fundamental Baptist
movement is making a full-blown three-course of meal out of the
reading material that the other side is producing.
And that's what's happening. They've stopped reading all of
these old men. They stopped reading Spurgeon
and deal Moody and Andrew Murray and all of these men of God that
wrote for a lot of years. And now all their reading is the
new stuff when that's all your diet is.
That's exactly what you're going to become.
Right? It's like somebody eats nothing
but carrots. Eventually, you start seeing
their skin turn orange and everything else.
Right. And the same thing is true when
it comes to this, this reading, if that's all you're taking in
that's what you are going to become and so you have to have a
very fine balance and balance in the Christian Life, Is
everything right? A ditch on the other side is
still a ditch and so you have to be very, very careful.
God warns us about entertaining vain.
Philosophies I had you turn to Colossians chapter 2 and There
was a little bit ago. But if you're still there,
verse, number 8, beware lest any man, spoil you, through
philosophy, and vain deceit. After the tradition of men after
the rudiments of the world and not after Christ, turn over the
first Timothy chapter 1 but that verse is exactly what many of
these new ifb churches and pastors are doing.
They're being spoiled through philosophy, and vain deceit.
And what's happening is they're reading these megachurch pastors
who are writing books on how to build mega churches.
You know, you build a megachurch you compromised.
You your soft on sin, you change your Bible version, you have
contemporary music, you have all these things.
So if that's what you're reading.
Well what's what is vain deceit? Talking about vain, deceit is
hey, look what you can have? This is what we have in.
This is exactly how we did it and we did it in three weeks.
We went from zero to nine hundred and three weeks.
And I mean, that's, I know it's that, you know, it's a little
bit of an exaggeration but not much Get emails from these
places. All the time, we went from zero
to 200 on our first anniversary and then we grew a 700 by our
second anniversary. Here's how we did it.
And all you have to do is pay $59 and we'll teach you how we
did it, right? And people are like, only $59,
let me see what they did and now they're digesting all of that
information from these Neo churches who are telling them
everything that they have to do to try to get people in.
And it's not about the gospel, it's all about.
What do I got to do to get people in right?
First, Timothy chapter 1 and verse number 5.
Now, the end of the Commandment is Charity out of a pure heart
and of a good conscience, and a Faith unfeigned from which, some
having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling.
I'm young as ministers, go. I'm only 40.
And, you know, you talk about, you know, people who are 60 or
70 years old, been in the ministry for 50 years and
whatever else I'm young compared to a lot of those guys.
But I've seen many pastors who have swerved Away from the
truth. And that's exactly what this Neo
ifb movement is doing. There's swerving away from the
truth, they're following after like the Bible says, they're
turned aside unto Vain jangling and it's not charity out of a
pure heart. It's not out of a good
conscience. It's not out of Faith unfeigned
because of what kind of reading diet they adapted and that's why
it's very, very important that you're that you care for what
you read, careful what you read careful who your friends are
careful who you Listen to, that's who that's what you're
going to become, you're going to become who your friends are, you
can become what you read and you going to become what you listen
to and what you watch. Here's this the seventh thing in
the last thing that they say is that we're just getting started
as like a couple of the other points that we talked about.
I'm not sure how this point defines the new Independent
Baptist, right? We mean just getting started.
I suppose I'll just have to be left wondering where this new
Independent Baptist movement is going.
But it's been around for probably.
I don't know. Less than 10 years.
We're probably Probably the majority of 10 years now, I
guess. And already we can see the
direction that it's going in, and it's not good, what they're
producing and the product that is being put out of some of
these colleges. Especially, and, and the young
men that are being produced in these churches is, is troubling
And there's a certain look, right?
You got to have a floppy little mop of hair and shaved side.
You gotta have skinny jeans on that are tight at the ankles
that that's what you have to be. If that's who you're if you're
going to be a modern Pastor today, right?
And I mean I know clothes don't Define everything.
There's probably some good Christians mixed into that group
and I'm not, I'm not saying that all of them are bad Christians,
but what I'm saying is their desire is not to be as much like
Crisis, they can be their desires to be as much and as As
well liked as they can be. So they can get the most people
in that they can get in the ends.
Justify the means, and we'll do whatever we have to do to be
able to get the gospel to somebody.
And yes, we should be doing everything we can get to do to
get the gospel to somebody, but God is going to bless it more
when we do it his way versus trying to do it our way.
And I'm not it's not so much for me personally, even though I'm
always learning. But by God's grace, there's some
things that are set in stone. We're not, we're not changing
those things, but I'm more concerned about the up.
Upcoming generation. The generation.
Now let's just say that we started changing things here, we
change the standards and we change the music.
Can we change the Bible version? And most of the most of the
adults in this room are not going to go but so far and, and
me as a pastor, if I start changing things, I'm only going
to go so far. But you know who that effects.
In a dramatic way. The Next Generation and what we
allow in small doses, they are going to do in excess and even
though we might not be dramatically compromising, we're
training another generation to be completely compromised
because they don't even know what it used to be.
Like to be a strong independent fundamental Baptist, all they
know is this week, you know, soft Neo, independent,
fundamental Baptist, and then they take that and they take it
a step. Step farther, and they're going
to train a generation. That's not even saved if they're
saved themselves. So, one of these days and these,
especially these training institutions, where our kids may
possibly go and find a mate, or get a diploma, but then I'm
concerned about the next generation of preachers, as well
as the other preachers out there who are, like, I am.
But may feel the pressure to go this route, you know, because
because it's portrayed, as the only kind level-headed
scholarly, Rated bible-believing, you know,
passionate Soul conscious accountable Fellowship, that
that's in, you know, that that the that that type of
independent fundamental Baptist can enjoy.
So I pray that God allows me to be all of those things and
though many other brothers who desire, the same, but who do not
desire to Veer down that path. And it's a path and you've got
to start walking it to get there.
It's not something that happens overnight.
Because could you imagine if I came in here Next Sunday.
And I was in a pair of jeans and a t-shirt and I got up here on
Sunday morning Could you imagine what you would think and
probably what you would say? Right.
Especially then if I combine that with you walked in and
instead of a piano, we had a drum set And instead of these,
you know, these nice lights and all this other stuff, we had all
these purple lights all over the stage and everything else.
Most of you would probably walk out and say I went into the
wrong place. What you know and make sure
you're going to check the sign and make sure you walked into
the right building, right? Because you don't do that in one
giant leap. It's gradual changes that take
place over five 10, 15 years. And then all of those people who
are just being more and more brainwashed that this is okay.
And I don't really like it, but, whatever.
And then eventually, you get used to it to the point where
man, if you could see where you were 15 years ago and where you
are now, you would be shocked but because those changes happen
so gradually you're not shocked by it and now you're training a
new generation who that's not only are they not shocked by it?
That's all they know. And they're just going to take
that and run with it even farther from their and your
pragmatism your ends justify the means is going to be a whole lot
farther. They're going to take it a whole
lot farther than you would ever take it and you'll be shocked at
what they allow, but you can't help it because that's exactly
what you did. And you can't say anything about
it because that's exactly what you did.
I know we could have church growth and I this it's not equal
to spiritual growth, but if we were just preach truth and then
not make any application to it. That's what a lot of, that's
what a lot of these churches are doing, all right, I know that we
could ignore bible-based, Holy Spirit convictions to have more
man, perceived results. But if I did that, I just happen
to think that that it would adversely affect the level of
discipleship in my life and the life of lives of all of those
that I have the leadership responsibilities to.
I know it's hard to carry across No, it's unpopular to carry
across. I know the cross is heavy
sometimes and it's difficult to convince others to do that.
I know that it will cause you to look peculiar in the world's
eyes. Real crosses are looked down
upon not just by the world, but by a lot of Christianity.
Nobody wants to pick up their cross and carry their cross.
And honestly, we're living in these pop culture politically
correct days. And what happens is when you get
a soft Church, who is not used to any kind of hard preaching,
you can't preach on things that go against Pop Culture.
You can't preach against things that are socially unacceptable,
because you got a whole church full of people who have
socially, accepted, everything and who are nothing but pop
culture and the The minute you say something about that.
You're the one that's gone. They're not going to change it.
They outnumber You by far but you cultivated that you brought
all those people in and you didn't bring them along.
Right. People who get saved now
probably do have some of those pop culture ideas, right?
They may be very on board with abortion or very okay with
homosexuality, but the job of the church is not to be soft on
those things. The job of the church is to
teach them that those things are wrong.
And here's why they're wrong. And this is what's right.
And this is why it's right. And what I found is that, for
the most part, people want to be led, they want to be fed.
They want to know the truth. They're just, they just don't do
it and they don't believe it because they've never heard it.
You show it to me from the Bible and I'll believe it.
That's what most people's mindset is.
But if you never show it to him from the Bible and then all the
sudden, one day, you're going to get up and preach.
These hard messages, they're going to push back against it.
You're in the minority at that point because you've trained
them that way. And so it's so important that we
make sure that we take a stand in these areas and I also know
that to change in some of these areas.
This new group is encouraging pastors.
To change in what effect? The well done.
That I want to hear God. Say, when I get to heaven, when
I stand before it, I'm not changing.
And I hope you don't want to change on those things.
Either to adopt Conformity to this world in my life and in the
church would affect the outcome of my Works, after they passed
through the Judgment. When I stand before God someday,
we're all going to go through the fire.
When we stand before, God, the Bible says that every man's work
will be Tried by fire to see what sort it is.
Everything that's wood. Hay, and stubble is going to be
burned up. The only thing that's going to
last is the things that are silver and gold, right?
I'm not trying to say that. I'm the only one carrying across
not trying to say that josh Tyson is not a disciple of Jesus
Christ. I trying to say that you have to
draw have address standard or a music standard or anything, but
the grace of God to be saved. Still only a sinner saved by
grace. Right?
Even if I have those standards but I'm not interested in
comparing myself with others because of those standards, none
of that. I'm really only speaking for
myself and for the ones to whom God has called me to pastor and
God has called me to lead and God's called you to be here or
you wouldn't be here, right. I have said this many times and
I believe it is as much as I did.
The first time I said it, when we had 10 people here, God has
people that he wants to be in this church and I mean we're
doing everything we can to have people live help people live as
closely to the word of God as we can.
But I also understand that this is not the church that God wants
every single person in the world in Right, there's other good
churches out there and that might be where God wants
somebody else to be plugged in. We want the people here that God
wants to have here. But once you get here and you
tell me that you believe, God LED you here, then you need to
be willing to be led. You need to be willing to
change. What needs to be changed.
You need to be willing to follow the word of God and you'd be
willing to follow the pastor as I follow Christ.
Right? And the moment that I move away
from that, you either leave and go somewhere else or you bring
it to the attention and say, hey, I think we're getting off
in this area, right? So God will reveal one day.
How all of us carried our crosses and to what level, and
to what lengths we are willing to carry those God's God's going
to reveal. And it may not be far away.
Whether our works were pure and whether they were right, and
I'll leave that up to him. I'm not fearful.
And I'll be honest with you, as I was reading.
And through some of these responses in this, you know,
like the he this article that he wrote and reading some of those
responses that was a little word of the used, a lot.
Fearful, I'm not intimidated to try to try to change things or
to try to not do these things for the cause of Jesus Christ.
The only thing that I would comment on is the fact that he
says, we're just now inheriting the established pulpit.
That's what we said and is article.
We're just getting started. We're just now inheriting, the
established Pulpit. Let's not throw away the
foundation on which that inheritance was built.
We have a rich history. As Independent Baptist, we have
a rich history as Baptists and it doesn't mean the same thing
to call yourself a Baptist today that it used to mean, doesn't
mean the same thing to call yourself an independent
fundamental Baptist today than what it used to mean.
But there's a lot of men who gave a lot of blood and sweat
and tears to hold that high. And just because a lot of people
have perverted that does not mean that we need to try to
change it while we're not taking.
Baptist off the sign. That's why we're not going to
stop calling ourselves. Independent fundamental Baptist.
Temptation is there because again, it doesn't mean the same
thing used to be that when you saw this was a Baptist Church,
you could go there for church on a vacation and you can trust it
can't anymore used to be that. If it said independent
fundamental Baptist underneath the bat, you know their name on
their sign, that you could trust it, you can go in there and you
would be fine. Now you don't know what you're
going to get. It so it doesn't mean the same
thing that it used to mean but we can hold the line on what it
used to mean and we can continue doing what the Bible says, we
ought to do and continue living the way.
The Bible says, we ought to live now.
This is a this is kind of a long response and I'm going to close
with this but dr. Earl Jessup.
He was actually the founder of Baptist church planting
Ministry. Jeremy Rowland is the director
of that now, and they were a help to us.
When we were getting started, they gave us 25,000 John and
Romans to help us pass out. And they had A lot of a lot of
knowledge that we needed when they helped us get started.
But when we first started that whole process.
Dr. Earl Jessup was alive and he was the director still.
He got cancer and he was kind of in the middle of that.
I met him at a conference and we we hit it off really well and he
went say that he begged us to start a church with their
Ministry, but he really wanted us to depart.
He really wanted to partner with us and do that.
And so, we started that but then he died, but this article was
Actually written. I don't know if 56 years ago
probably and and and like I said so many people that responded to
it. But he actually wrote I guess
you would call an open letter and rather than try to
paraphrase his words or take a little bits and pieces and give
them to you as mine. I want to read what he said.
He is essentially answering this this this article that Josh Tice
wrote. Here's what he said.
I guess many would categorize me as the old ifb likely because of
what I believe in practice, however, that characterization
would be mistaken. In fact, the majority of
independent Baptists are not old ifb, nor are we the ni B new
Independent Baptist? We are just men of God,
fulfilling the will of God in our lives with little interest
in what the old or the new do or think we are more interested in
what God thinks we're not nor ever have been part of a
movement. We realized that Christ died for
the Church. And our responsibility is to
Christ to his word and to the leading of the holy spirit in
our lives and the lives of those to whom we Minister.
We find no place in the scripture but there should be
any loyalty beyond the word of God and the local church.
Let me explain the word movement seemed to be prevalent in the
posting and comments. Yes, there is a movement that
has been called the ifb. This movement is just like the
denominations of the SBC. The BBF Ghar Ghar, BC.
Just to name a few As denominations need leaders
movements need leaders these leaders because they are men
make mistakes and in some cases fall even Moses fell in numbers
20 when he struck the rock David Fell in second Samuel 11 good
men are still men. Now there is a new movement
called the N IB. This movement, our word for a
denomination will have its leaders in these leaders are
just men and they will make mistakes lead him properly and
some may fall if history proves true and it usually does this
movement will degenerate just like the previous ones have and
maybe Wise to forget the movement and just be the pastor
God wants you to be. If you do, you'll follow many
pastors who are just Faithfully following the Lord.
And pastoring, the people God has given them.
They are letting men answer to God for their Ministries and
they don't care about the older. The new they care about their
flock and their faithfulness to God.
There's a word that is conspicuously missing from what
I read in the post in the comments, it's the word balance,
balance, men don't need any leader or movement, they have
Christ in his word. Ali, there are majority of
Pastors in this country who are balanced in their Ministries and
quietly go about shepherding their flock.
Protecting them from those who have become biblically
unbalanced in either direction, these men are more concerned
about Holiness, which is another word missing in the post, except
for a - mention early in the post, you see balance men don't
harp on issues, like dress, they preach and how God wants us to
be holy and give him our best. It's not about specific.
It's about principles. All churches have standards.
I remember one preacher saying to me, that his church didn't
have any dress, Standards. I asked him if it was all right
for a lady to wear a bikini to church.
His answer was absolutely not. I then told him that he had
standards but they were just lower than mine balance men have
standards and those standards are based on the Bible.
For example, when The Prodigal Son came home, what did the
father put on him? Luke 15 20 to bring forth the
best robe no he didn't put on a suit shirt and tie.
He put the best on him. This seems to be very simple
when meeting with the father we ought to wear our best.
Best is different in clothing but the same in principle.
All years ago, we were in a meeting back up in the mountains
of West Virginia. My son said, to a man dressed in
a very neat coveralls. Where's the pastor, men replied?
I'm the pastor son, he was dressed in his best balance men,
teach their people to look their best.
When coming to church, why? Because God deserves our best
weather in Las Vegas, Kenya or the mountains of West.
Virginia balance men are on the side of Holiness and modesty
rather than on the side of unholiness and in modesty and
that makes sense for every preacher for balance men.
In this, in the character of God, dictates our style of
worship the songs. We sing.
What we wear etcetera. The Lord made it clear to the
children of Israel to be careful about the worldly worship of
those in the land of Canaan. He won them several times about
this and gives a list of Bible verses.
The result of their failure is found in judges 2 and the
remainder of the book. It's sad ending for their
failure. You mentioned in artificial list
of Holiness. Josh God made a list of
standards for the Old Testament. Priest in Leviticus twenty one,
this list was for those serving. The physical sacrifices in the
Tabernacle. If God expected, the Old
Testament, priests have certain standards, then you would surely
agree that the New Testament, priests who offer up spiritual
sacrifices in First Peter chapter 2, should abide by
certain standards. In fact, one can take the
standards listed in Leviticus and correlate them to verses in
the New Testament for us today. It is true.
Isn't it that the Old Testament scriptures were written for our
learning what it says in Romans 15 balance men have preached
expository messages for years. Because some leaders who thought
that everyone followed them, read a verse close, their Bible
and ranted for 45 minutes. Doesn't mean that thousands of
Godly men across this country did the same.
If that were the case there wouldn't be good churches
scattered throughout this land with good people and them
serving the lord and living holy lives.
Remember you are the third generation not the second the
second old followed men who gave up so much to become independent
Baptist. These were men who lost their
churches, their friends and many times their Financial Security
they left the Of this church to begin churches without any ties
to the denominational structure. However they brought with them
remnants of the denomination. They still remain with us today.
They started fellowships and associations thinking that these
would be needed to hold them together.
These became the movements, the Camp's, the denominations of the
ifb, they're still with us today and the old I have be developed
these movements with their leaders and these leaders and
followers separated from anyone who disagreed with them.
This is what you already crying and you should.
However if you're not careful, you will fall Into the same
scenario, you're labeling a new movement called the NIV.
This will follow the same track as before and the things you
would be crying. Now will become will come back
to haunt you. One day, there will likely be an
n and IB which will stand for the new new Independent Baptist.
These young preachers will criticize you for your failures.
Yes, you will have them and start the process.
All over again. Who knows what sorts of media
they'll have? Wouldn't it be better to Simply
have the movement to the Holy Spirit and our churches rather
than some man-made title for unbalanced men to follow?
There have been good, Godly balance, Independent, Baptist
down through the years that have done this.
We need no old ifb leaders. And we didn't know, new new
independent Baptists leaders. We need God in our attention to
his Holiness and character and nothing else.
The denominational politics, you mentioned is exactly what I'm
talking about. As the ifb tried to dictate
philosophy and standards. Now, there is the NIV and this
new denomination is going to do the same balance.
Men don't need nor want you or anyone else to lead them they
have a leader. Who is the chief Shepherd these
men didn't Listen to the ifb and they aren't going to listen to
the NIV. Yes, there will be those who
follow this new movement. Just as there have been men, who
followed the old movement. Thankfully most won't, they're
too busy studying the scriptures and caring for their flock to be
on the internet reading and writing about such things.
Yes, there have been men, some leaders and some followers who
Miss manage their finances, and there will be others, even in
the new Independent Baptist. Why?
Because men are wicked flesh and like, the power that comes with
the pulpit and like the power that comes with the pulpit.
However, they are and will be a minority.
Thankfully, the Jordy of pastors are Faithfully leading their
flocks. Not lording over them.
These men understand their answerable to God and he will
bring into light that which is done in darkness.
They're Faithful Men Who sadly have been overshadowed, but
those who have get by those who have gained the headlines
because of their pride and arrogance.
Josh, surely you don't believe that the NIV are the first ones
to be well read. I really don't think that is
what you intended, but it came across that way.
Look at the ministries of men who are balanced in their
Ministries. These men have spent time in the
word of God and studying, the wisdom of men of the past, their
libraries are Filled with volumes and volumes of books, to
prepare them for the pulpit, they prepared for Sunday by
hours of study, sadly many of the ni many of the NIV are
spending their time on the internet, with some getting
their messages from sermon central or some other internet
source and getting up on Sunday and preaching warmed-over truth.
That someone else got from God. Yes you are just getting
started. But in fact you're not It was
started for you by many who sacrificed more than you will
ever know. They fought the fights so you
don't have to fight them. You've been given a great
heritage and one that you should not take for granted yes, men
failed and there will be failures in the end.
I be to Any Time men are involved in Ministry, there will
be failures and it's on men, follow leaders rather than
Christ. In his word, there will be men
who fail. They always have and they always
will, sadly unbalanced. Unbiblical men chose to cover
those failures rather than facing them biblically.
Hopefully the ni We'll learn from their error and I encourage
you to be faithful to his word and not some philosophy or ideas
of men. They always produce failure.
There's another word that seem to be prevalent in your post in
the comments. It's the word preference, Maybe
I'm Wrong. There seems to be a major
emphasis on this word. When we when relating to the ni
be. Could we possibly be looking at
this from the wrong perspective? We seem to be looking at it from
our preference and what he's person would prefer, thus giving
them Liberty to do, as they see fit, maybe we should look at
This from God's perspective, what does God prefer?
What he prefer our best dress or casual dress for worship?
What he prefer, modesty or in modesty?
What? He prefer music that has nothing
to do with the world or music that has a worldly connotation.
Maybe it would be best if we started to look at it a bit
differently and make a difference in our worship style
or dressed in our walk with the Lord.
If we can to seek what? God prefers I also noticed that
the word fundamental is missing. Maybe you should consider nif be
sadly. The old missed, not the word,
but the truth of the word, it's not just the word, but the truth
behind it that are important as time progressed, the ifb got
sidetracked by side issues for getting the fundamentals and
where they came from. If you chose to eliminate the
fundamentals, you two will end up where they ended up
fundamentals, are simply the basics.
If you ignore the basics of our faith, you two will fail, all
you need to do. Ask any manager of any team,
what happens when they get away from the fundamentals of the
game? They manager coach.
They'll tell you that any team not concentrating on.
The fundamentals will end up in last place while some of the
outspoken leaders of the camps and movements and denominations
got away from the fundamentals. Good balance.
Men of every decade. Didn't they quietly stood true
to the fundamentals of the scripture without influence from
anyone? Josh I want you to know.
I want you to be as successful in your ministry as you can be,
your success will not be based on how many you You have or how
many influence it will be based on how we Faithfully follow the
word of God. I encourage you to be a balanced
preacher if you do. You'll follow in the steps of
many Godly preachers who have gone before you.
They're not the old ifb. They are not the NIV are
balanced preachers holding forth.
The truth to the flocks. God has given them are waiting
for the chief Shepherd to appear when they shall receive a Crown
of Glory that fadeth not away. Great article.
I know it's long but men so well written.
We have a lot to fight for We really do.
We've been given so much and so many people that have stood for
the truth, for so many years, they just get swept under the
rug as if they never did it by this new Independent Baptist
movement. But we have to do it with the
right Spirit. We have to do it with the power
of God, or anything that we're trying to do is going to fail.
I think he in a lot of the ways, Earl Jessup.
As he's writing this describe exactly what we're trying to
accomplish in our church. We don't have a lot of
connections. We don't have a lot of people
in, don't have a lot of churches that we fellowship with and
things like that. It's because we don't have time
to focus on that as much as we have to focus on what God is
trying to do here, what God wants to do in us and what God
wants to do through us, he's given us the responsibility to
influence and impact this area for the cause of Christ.
And If all we're doing is worried about what everybody
else is doing around us. Then we're going to miss out on
that. And I don't want to miss it,
God's doing great things here and and and not just not just
growing in numbers. I believe that a lot of a lot of
you are taking great spiritual steps, don't ever don't ever
stop. Don't ever quit doing that.
But the moment we stop preaching the truth of the word of God.
And the moment we start being soft on sin.
In the moment, we stop start caring more about what other
people think than what God thinks is.
Moment that all of us as a church, whether we grow in
numbers or not are going to backslide and God cannot bless
that. I'd rather be 40 people.
That God has got a hold of, that is doing something for the cause
of Christ. And before hundred people who
don't have God's power. There's a lot of churches that
are 400 people that don't have God's power and they're
absolutely worthless in the eyes of God.
I'm thankful we have more than 40 people.
But let's have people that God can use because we're given over
to him. And we're more concerned about
living lives of Holiness, in line with him, and in line with
his word, then would care about what everybody else thinks about
us, when anybody else is doing, anybody else's growth strategy,
or whatever else, you know, the best best growth strategy, go
out and win souls for Christ. We don't have a growth strategy
here. We're going out and trying to
win souls for Christ. And the more souls you in for
Christ, the more people come in and want their lives to be
changed and God will change them and you're going to grow and the
more you grow, the more you grow spiritually, the more you'll get
out there and tell other people about Christ.
The more you tell the people about Christ, more people are
going to get saved in the more people get saved, the more they
have to influence other people as well.
We have to worry about how do you get more people in through
the door? I'll tell you how, give them the
gospel. They'll come in.
God will bring him here. And that's what our Focus ought
to be. We're done for tonight, but I'm
going to, I'm going to give you one more lesson.
Not doesn't have anything to do with this new, Independent
Baptist movement, and all that stuff.
One more kind of just to wrap up everything about the Baptist in
the Independent Baptist and all that stuff.
Then we'll move on to a new topic but let's pray and we'll
be done. Father, we love you again.
We thank you so much for what you have given us in the
Heritage that we do have. And for the men who have stood
for the truth of the word of God and have stood strong on those
things for all those years, many that are gone now.
Now who ran their race and no doubt heard you say, Well done
thou good and faithful servant. God, I pray that you'd help each
one of us to run our race in the same way and that our church
would not be not, not comparing us to anybody else or with
anything else, but only to your standards of Holiness and to
living the way that you want us to live God.
I pray that you'd be pleased with this church.
Maybe we do everything, we can to reach souls for the cause of
Jesus Christ. With the time we have left.
Thank you for all you do for us in Jesus name.
Amen.