From India's largest Newsroom. I'm Martin George.
And this is the times of India podcast.
So as political is one of India's most eminent political
scientists, he's Chief editor of the journal studies in Indian
politics. He taught at the savitribai
phule University of Pune and is the co-director of the
organization look, nithi that studies elections in India, but
he's been making headlines more recently because he and yogendra
yadav have been demanding that their names be removed from
ncert s political science, textbooks, both he and Any other
are listed as advisors in the textbooks.
So as punchier explains how the names feature in the textbooks
and whites at the heart of their campaign to have their names
removed one, is that there is a letter written by two of us as
Chief advisors to the teachers and the students about what
these groups intend to do and how they should be rain there
our names appear and we are saying in this book you will
find such and such things and then Is a list of the entire
team which is called initially this terminology as textbook
development team or committee. So it is at least two places
where our names appear and an impression is created that
whatever then follows in the textbook is something that we
have prepared in those and are recommending.
Now the teachers and students to study carefully as he explained,
Professor policy card doesn't want to be seen as in Endorsing
the changes made in the text books.
Under what has been termed as a rationalization of the syllabus.
This process of rationalization has been undertaken every year
since the covid pandemic started in 2020.
Under this parts of textbooks have been cut out or excluded
from the syllabus with the stated aim of reducing the load
on students in an earlier. Episode Professor.
Anita rampal from Delhi. University had explained why the
alteration of these textbooks matters education in India may
be decided by state governments but in many states it's the
state boards based their textbooks and class is 11 and 12
on the textbooks published by the National Council of
educational research and training or ncert.
This has become more necessary with the syllabus for
centralized entrance exams being based on ncert textbooks while
demanding the removal of their names, the two advisors termed
the edits made in textbooks as mutilations Professor pearl
sugar explains why the use such a harsh term to describe the
cuts. To begin with, we use text wrong
word, mainly to intimate, not about the volume of the
deletions, but above the logic, that was violated because of the
deletions. For example, we have this text
book on political Theory and from that the new topics of
peace and development, very taken out or the book on post
Cold, War global politics, the chapter on, Cold War itself was
taken out. So we thought that this really
creates a confusion in the mind of the reader in the first
place. And secondly, the relation will
also because randomly sentences paragraphs, pictures photos were
taken out. Now, you would realize that to
reduce the burden on the child. You don't have to take out
pictures and photographs from the book because pictures and
photographs actually are within good educational AIDS.
In today's episode, my colleague, Alka do care and I
are in conversation with Professor.
Paul Shaker about why he and yogendra, yadav have decided to
take a stand on the issue. Since they sought their names,
be removed. Another set of experts involved
in the writing of the textbooks wrote a letter in their support
soon. After a public letter was
written against Professor pearl sugar and yogendra, yadav which
was signed by officials from various government institutes.
In today's episode, Professor Paul Shakur, explains the
importance of the material that has been cut out of textbooks, X
and the aim behind teaching students about these topics.
He also talks about how he views the larger project of rewriting
textbooks that he says will start soon and why parents
should be concerned. We started by asking him why he
decided to speak up against the cuts made in textbooks only now
So you and yogendra yadav. Weather forced to seek the
removal of your names from the textbook.
At what point did you decide to seek this?
Because the rationalization has been taking place since 2020,
our attention was drawn last year in the first place.
When this, in CLT said that they having something like 30 percent
reduction in the syllabus That time also we had spoken publicly
about this that from an educational you point a 30%
reduction does not help the child to readjust to the post
covid educational scenario. But we thought that this was
only because of covid. Now, this year, the first thing
that happened was that the initial T said that the same
changes will. Now continue and secondly they
were very vague circular on their website saying that even
if certain changes are not listed here but affected in the
text, They will be effective that alerted us to possibility
that this is something more than what is called rationalization
or Readjustment due to the covid situation.
The in CRT needs defense, also came out by saying that over a
period of Time, new knowledge, emerges and takes books need to
reflect that new knowledge. And therefore, we will curious
what new knowledge has emerged. About Indian politics that makes
certain changes necessary. Like for example, deletion of
the discussion of diversity from the chapters on Democracy, we
didn't agree with this idea that any new knowledge has emerged
which would tell us that diversity need not be discussed
along with democracy. There has been a letter written
by the heads of multiple institute's countering you and
mr. Yadav's demand to have your
names removed from the textbook, so why won't you settle for
anything less than the removal of your names?
In this case? Also, what does the presence of
your name? If the textbook mean for me, it
was a matter of Pride. We were very happy 15 years ago
or 17 years ago that we had this opportunity.
Opportunity to do something, which was reasonably good.
I suppose many students have been writing to us that they
enjoyed the paper books and even when they grow up they have fond
memories of these textbooks but that is not for us to decide
whether the textbooks are good or not.
We can say that we spend two years and by we I mean not just
two of us but there was a group of almost 40 Scholars teachers
from schools and so on and so forth.
Sprinkle a couple of years on that in repairing, the state's
books, we were all so happy that for the first time you could do
away with the topic called cilix, known this quick
curriculum, and bring political science in its place, that is
where the textbooks on Democracy come for class, 9, and 4 class
10. So the idea was not to create an
obedient citizen but to create a questioning citizen.
Now, we We think that that happiness is gone because of
this action taken by the ncart instill, the elite,
operationalized manner, they could have said that we are
changing the committee. They could have said that we are
changing the text books also and we wouldn't have complained
because it is quite fair that in CRT, has the right to change the
committee, get expert advice from others and prepare.
In new text without doing that. They have taken reports to this
set of huge therefore we were worried and it's not a question
of what you would settle for. We wanted to bring it to the
notice of the public that this still lie.
Manipulation of the texts is going one and that is
legitimised in our names. I don't mind and I'm sure others
would also not wine. If the names of those experts
who advise to you ncert to do, all, this are put there because
then there would be a criticism from outside.
We would still criticize if you don't agree but that you will be
an external criticism. Not a case of this complaint,
are you also mentioned some 100 academicians who have taken out
a statement. I try to read their names and
the initial 30 or more, our educational administrators often
appointed by the government's either government of India or
different state governments. What I feel bad about was that
they simply impute motives one allegation is we want publicity,
and that's why we are doing it. If so, this shouldn't have
responded because their response has probably given as more
publicity, but the other allegation is that, we are
hindering, the process of implementing new education
policy, which is rather ridiculous.
Because here the discussion of new education policy doesn't
appear anywhere. They also point out that these
textbooks are 17 years old and therefore we wanted to hold
knowledge to continue. As I said, we are very welcome
to the idea of new knowledge being taught.
We are not saying that this textbook should continue
permanently at all. In fact you will find that this
is for the first time of 25 years that is full majority
government came to power in Delhi.
So why didn't the government? Formulate, the new education
policy earlier so that new textbooks could be made.
They didn't do it. It's only now.
Now that the implementation is likely to begin from this year
and the next year. So I don't think that that
criticism by his academicians is fair real.
Things like food rot while and talk 2002 and emergency are
deleted from the syllabus. So I would like to understand
that deleting actual events from the books, how it impacts the
future education. See this book about which you
are talking is a book about politics after Independence, and
the students who were supposed to be studying this textbook
where Class 12 students, who are already voters.
And therefore, we thought that there is no reason for us to be
prudish, in deleting certain things because they are young
children, rather than that, let us present them with what
Problems and challenges, India's democracy has faced so far about
Gujarat. For example, while the violence
in Gujarat, the 34 pages of that are totally taken out the
anti-sikh violence continues to have a mention in the textbook
and that makes their delicious selectively.
So it is not as if all references to communal violence
and taken off but only one particular reference.
He's taken off about the emergency curiously.
Some parts of the emergency story have been kept and then
some quartz about what are the lessons of emergency and What
are the consequences of that episode, which really tells the
student to prove, the nature of our democracy they were in taken
from. So it is this, which in a sense
was disturbing, Also do you mentioned about Political
Science teaching why it is important to the student in your
opinion, why it is important to understand or get the critical
view in democracy as a citizen? I think this should be agreed
upon as a society. That the very purpose of
education is to create curiosity, not to give
information but to make the stew, Students ask questions at
every level, I don't think this is limited with only two
political science, purpose of any science and therefore any
educational tool should be to create curiosity and to create a
spirit of questioning that is what is necessary.
Historically education has always been seen in two
different ways. One, it is seen as an instrument
of the ruling classes to Obedient citizens.
And to it is always seen as a challenge to the rulers, and we
think that education should be the lighter and it is the
overall approach not just of this team.
But of the national curriculum framework of 2005, we were
talking about the political changes made or deletions made
in the political science subject, but as we know that
this is not limited to one subject, It.
And it is actually the life larger issue here.
When we are talking about the syllabus with your kind of
experience, where do you see this going?
I was discussing with another educationalists who said that
this is part of hindutva project.
Do you see that this is going in the light of the political
ideology of hindutva rushed or at least in political science?
There seems to be an emphasis on what is Called a homogeneous
idea of Indian unity. And that's why we thought that
the reference to diversity is taken away.
The discussion of Federalism is cut short and so on and so.
So the reference to Gujarat is taken out for a more simplistic
reason that the ruling party finds it inconvenient combining
these two at least I would personally be persuaded by the
argument that these changes are a Prelude to a larger
ideologically driven project of page book writing in the future
that is corroborated. Also by what has happened in
sociology textbooks, where discussions of caste and gender
are truncated, that is am. So also happened in history
where their removal of reference to Mughal rulers is being
waived. I suspect that this government
at least in its second term, is pushing the ideological agenda.
Very strongly. And obviously, if you can Shin
is an important field where such ideological agenda is very
quickly pushed in, so I am worried that the next series of
tests books, what their ideological quality would
definitely be in tune with What kind of society the current
government imagines we have as a shorthand to that this term word
Hindu, which has nothing to do with Hindu religion.
So, I am not saying that the textbooks will be upholding
Hindu religion as such, but there would be various ideas of
force, various ideas of militancy, various ideas of
unified nationalism and an extraordinary.
Emphasis on nationalism which to come into the textbooks now,
that is definitely a possibility when most important part which
is kind of related is people's moment right.
Occur it, I have seen that protester on our on waits for
iterate as anti-development section of the society from the
rulers. And number two, recently prime
minister of India had called them undulant fever.
Kind of derogatory word and then removing underline or people's
movement from the syllabus. We see it in the education
system. So how important is it to teach
about people's movement in the school and what impact it will
have? If one looks at the development
of India's democracy, you will find historically.
It started with movements only elections came later and this is
What does the Nationalist movement, for freedom of India?
My starting point for the development or evolution of
Indian democracy would be, what fully and a miracle we're doing.
When in the 19th century, fully mobilizes, the so-called sugar
has against grammatical domination.
I will read it as an embryonic, beginning of democracy in this
country, fully might not have have talked in terms of Abraham
Lincoln's or our modern theory of democracy.
But what he was talking about was right?
What he was talking about, was human dignity, and what he was
talking about was equality, that is democracy.
So, our democracy Indian democracy has this extraordinary
distinction of having returned with movements and having been
enriched by movements that is what Mars of Terror of dr.
Ambedkar Is and therefore that is what the larger nationalist
movement. Also is carrying forward, This
legal see in the post-independence period.
Although government's never like protest movements or people's
movements, they not only tolerated but responded to those
movements democratically. New didn't like the movements
for linguistic States but he considered linguistic skills.
Nobody likes the movements, the secessionist movements as they
are called in nagaland and in other parts of the country but
what the Indian government subsequently did was to talk to
Naga Rebels. For a number of years patiently,
do the issue has not been resolved.
They beat the same with measles because there was also a Museo
Nacional friend which wanted to be separated from India.
Talking to them. The issue was resolved.
So you will find that democracy is not about just voting and
elections. It is much more than that.
And India has a rich tradition of that much more.
The Western world has realized this only later that civil
society as they now call, it is very important in democracy.
If you look at India, India actually starts with that
intervention of the Civil Society into politics.
X and only them in the 20th. Century electoral politics
begins to shape. So I think deletion of this Rich
Heritage of our own and you know this is something in this
contribution to democratic theory.
So you are taking it out. So what kind of a national is
you are if you are taking out, India's own Heritage out of the
syllabus just for your pity immediate political
considerations, that's the question.
As a parent, why I should be concerned about this changes.
I mean, academician or professors, like, you are
raising boys. That is important, but we have
not heard anything on National level from parents groups.
You know, the reaction is still coming from the intellectual
class. It's a very large issue really,
to begin with parents, didn't really think only in terms of
examinations often. And therefore, they are not
worried about the contents as such.
But what will be asked if the examination how the child will
be tested and so on and so forth?
Secondly awareness about the contents of the text books in
our country. Among parents are among the
general, public has always been very limited.
It is, unfortunately seen as the business business of the
Educators and the issue. Creationists, as a matter of
fact, textbooks is such an important thing that it
shouldn't be left to The Experts and parents should be carefully.
Reading those textbooks and having a certain opinion on
those textbooks. So rudely you are asking why our
parents not worried. The answer would obviously in
the third-place be that our society today.
Least one large section of the society is not at all worried
about the rise of individual, or the rise of what I prefer to
call as majoritarian democracy. We, as a society, whether we
work in education or Media or in private other sectors, we are
not worried about this Prospect of democracy being transformed
before. Our own eyes into majoritarian
democracy. Crasy it diverse Society being
transformed into a unified monoliths that we should eat the
same thing that we should not eat.
What? Some other people also don't eat
that we should wear a certain type of clothing.
Dress codes are being slowly imposed one way or the other.
And in other words, this vaccination for uniformity is
there that if there is Is everything uniform.
Then nobody will stop us from becoming a great nation.
That is something, which is happening around us before our
own eyes. And generally there has been no
resistance to that. So I think, when you ask why
parents are not doing this, Facebook's the counter question
will be as a society. Why are we generally not worried
about the changes that are happening in our society?
The National Education policy and National curriculum
framework are also under development.
So how do you see these changes playing out in the Indian
education system? See with all its limitations,
the original new education policy has such began with all
the correct noises or you may say they ticked all the boxes.
Because nobody can challenge or complain about Indian ization of
Education, nobody can complain about Indian languages to be
given preference in education. The trouble is that, while that
expert group did its job. Now it is in the hands of those
who are very useful and instrumental, in pushing the
Hindu to agenda for the domain and therefore as the new
education policy unfolds then new, curriculum Frameworks
unfold. I think we would have another
round of debate on what actually is included and what is Some
day, I will just give you a small example.
Even before this new curriculum framework comes in Delhi
University. This battle has been going on
about having a separate ozone, savarkar or not having a course
on ambedkar, even before the new curriculum framework comes in
the textbooks, in Karnataka bear time for it last year and he'd
give our and sour curls, right? Things were included in those
textbooks. So I think this infiltration or
penetration of the educational scenario has already started.
Now we will see in the next step of that when the new education
policy begins to unroll from this end and next year, and the
stage, next, that would be a complete infiltration of the
education system through new textbooks.
You said that, you know, governments are accused of doing
this at all times of using textbooks to drive.
Agendas is there an instance, that comes to your mind of
something of this scale? That's being attempted now?
And, you know, is there a sort of lesson for us in that?
No, the point you're raising is very interesting.
Governments always have been doing this both at the state
level as well as at the all India level.
The nearest examples would perhaps come in the case of the
left front governments in West Bengal.
But otherwise the at the national level in spite of the
various interferences this kind of ambition of having The
textbooks of a particular kind that would penetrate the minds
of children is probably happening for the first time and
that is because we for the first time have an extremely
ideologically driven. Government at the helm, s
interest government though, having some preferences for this
or that ideological Viewpoint would always be very limited in
its interventions. And that's why I would say that.
Don't find that. If one is discussing the in
Sierra tea, I think this is a moment of Crisis for ncert
because there is going to be a measure interference in the
working of the ncer in that light.
Then you know who sort of protects the sort of wisdom that
we have acquired over the years because you're shrinking the
space for younger students to acquire it.
Is it the institutions that will now be tasked with sort of
expanding students Minds, And is it parents?
Where does that happen? Then that's difficult to see the
first answer to your question would actually be that there
would also be a shrinking or blinking of the public mind in
the future. If the same thing continues 10,
15 years down the line, the new generation of children, having
come out of schools would have a blinkered view of society way.
Blinkered view of how gender relations should be and if You
could you how once to look at Muslims or other devices or
North East Indians. So that is the blinking we are
narrowing, our vision rather than broadening it that
unfortunately seems to me to be a possibility, and do you see
anyone being able to public media Public intellectuals
public? Minded individuals groups will
always keep fighting but I guess they would be Small Pockets
rather than the mainstream. So what is changing is that the
mainstream is being blinkered and the pockets, would try to
Broadway's that mainstream which is a tough task which would take
maybe another quarter of a century.
So what you do in two years to remove that and to restore or at
least enrich the society would require 20 years.
And that's why this entire noise-making or as our Respond
spectacle making. We are making a spectacle, not
for our own sake, but because we know that the damage we are
doing is easy to do to reconstruct.
It would take another generation, is there a scenario
in which you see yourself participating in a process of
textbook writing like this ever again, you are asking a
hypothetical question and my answer to that is I am unlikely.
Having made so much noise and trouble for the establishment.
I'm unlikely now to be invited by anyone, either going to be
any party which comes to power, they will be worried because no
quality is really likes. People of independent wind to
prepare textbooks, but my Frank answer would be that if any
intellectual is invited to participate in that trouble.
And if that intellectual also is given the guarantee that an
intellectual autonomy would be accepted, then there should be
no problem in participating. We participated in when the
Congress government was in power, having been opposed to
many things that the Congress has always been doing.
And yet, we were given the autonomy.
We were protected in the sense by the ncart itself, when we
decided to write a chapter on him, Urgency during Congress
rule, our critiques really don't give a second to think about
this that this chapter on emergency has come into the
textbooks when the congress party was in power.
The credit partly would of course, go to the congress
party. But more credit would go to the
ncart and also to process people who was like a strong People are
always there to protect all textbook committees from any
government intervention. He would tell the government,
please don't interfere. And that moral Authority is
something that we need today. I don't know if anyone would
have that moral Authority. I don't know whether this
government should also have the moral embarrassment of agreeing
or not agreeing to people of that stature.
And therefore, I don't know whether I would participate, but
if He says okay this textbooks like you wrote last time then
why not it would be a good thing and a fun to do it.
My fear is not just that nobody would invite but that nobody
would give even a limited autonomy to the textbook teams
anymore. Today's episode was produced by
Jay Raj, Singh soon. I moratti and on Vijay Singh for
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