1 00:00:01,300 --> 00:00:04,100 From India's largest Newsroom. I'm Martin George. 2 00:00:04,100 --> 00:00:06,500 And this is the times of India podcast. 3 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:22,600 So as political is one of India's most eminent political 4 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,800 scientists, he's Chief editor of the journal studies in Indian 5 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,000 politics. He taught at the savitribai 6 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,000 phule University of Pune and is the co-director of the 7 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,700 organization look, nithi that studies elections in India, but 8 00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:38,000 he's been making headlines more recently because he and yogendra 9 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,800 yadav have been demanding that their names be removed from 10 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:45,700 ncert s political science, textbooks, both he and Any other 11 00:00:45,700 --> 00:00:47,600 are listed as advisors in the textbooks. 12 00:00:48,100 --> 00:00:51,000 So as punchier explains how the names feature in the textbooks 13 00:00:51,100 --> 00:00:53,900 and whites at the heart of their campaign to have their names 14 00:00:53,900 --> 00:00:58,400 removed one, is that there is a letter written by two of us as 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:03,000 Chief advisors to the teachers and the students about what 16 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:08,000 these groups intend to do and how they should be rain there 17 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:12,300 our names appear and we are saying in this book you will 18 00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:16,400 find such and such things and then Is a list of the entire 19 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,700 team which is called initially this terminology as textbook 20 00:01:20,700 --> 00:01:25,000 development team or committee. So it is at least two places 21 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,400 where our names appear and an impression is created that 22 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:33,800 whatever then follows in the textbook is something that we 23 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,200 have prepared in those and are recommending. 24 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:42,800 Now the teachers and students to study carefully as he explained, 25 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,400 Professor policy card doesn't want to be seen as in Endorsing 26 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:46,900 the changes made in the text books. 27 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,200 Under what has been termed as a rationalization of the syllabus. 28 00:01:50,500 --> 00:01:53,400 This process of rationalization has been undertaken every year 29 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,800 since the covid pandemic started in 2020. 30 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,800 Under this parts of textbooks have been cut out or excluded 31 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,500 from the syllabus with the stated aim of reducing the load 32 00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:05,400 on students in an earlier. Episode Professor. 33 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,400 Anita rampal from Delhi. University had explained why the 34 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,300 alteration of these textbooks matters education in India may 35 00:02:12,300 --> 00:02:15,300 be decided by state governments but in many states it's the 36 00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:18,400 state boards based their textbooks and class is 11 and 12 37 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,000 on the textbooks published by the National Council of 38 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,700 educational research and training or ncert. 39 00:02:25,100 --> 00:02:27,300 This has become more necessary with the syllabus for 40 00:02:27,300 --> 00:02:32,200 centralized entrance exams being based on ncert textbooks while 41 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,300 demanding the removal of their names, the two advisors termed 42 00:02:35,300 --> 00:02:39,100 the edits made in textbooks as mutilations Professor pearl 43 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:42,200 sugar explains why the use such a harsh term to describe the 44 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,700 cuts. To begin with, we use text wrong 45 00:02:46,700 --> 00:02:51,900 word, mainly to intimate, not about the volume of the 46 00:02:51,900 --> 00:02:56,900 deletions, but above the logic, that was violated because of the 47 00:02:56,900 --> 00:02:59,800 deletions. For example, we have this text 48 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:06,400 book on political Theory and from that the new topics of 49 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:13,100 peace and development, very taken out or the book on post 50 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:18,900 Cold, War global politics, the chapter on, Cold War itself was 51 00:03:18,900 --> 00:03:22,800 taken out. So we thought that this really 52 00:03:22,900 --> 00:03:26,000 creates a confusion in the mind of the reader in the first 53 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,200 place. And secondly, the relation will 54 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:37,900 also because randomly sentences paragraphs, pictures photos were 55 00:03:37,900 --> 00:03:41,300 taken out. Now, you would realize that to 56 00:03:41,300 --> 00:03:45,100 reduce the burden on the child. You don't have to take out 57 00:03:45,100 --> 00:03:48,600 pictures and photographs from the book because pictures and 58 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,900 photographs actually are within good educational AIDS. 59 00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:55,900 In today's episode, my colleague, Alka do care and I 60 00:03:55,900 --> 00:03:57,300 are in conversation with Professor. 61 00:03:57,300 --> 00:04:00,500 Paul Shaker about why he and yogendra, yadav have decided to 62 00:04:00,500 --> 00:04:03,400 take a stand on the issue. Since they sought their names, 63 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:05,900 be removed. Another set of experts involved 64 00:04:05,900 --> 00:04:08,600 in the writing of the textbooks wrote a letter in their support 65 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:10,800 soon. After a public letter was 66 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,900 written against Professor pearl sugar and yogendra, yadav which 67 00:04:13,900 --> 00:04:16,700 was signed by officials from various government institutes. 68 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:19,399 In today's episode, Professor Paul Shakur, explains the 69 00:04:19,399 --> 00:04:22,400 importance of the material that has been cut out of textbooks, X 70 00:04:22,500 --> 00:04:25,100 and the aim behind teaching students about these topics. 71 00:04:25,500 --> 00:04:28,500 He also talks about how he views the larger project of rewriting 72 00:04:28,500 --> 00:04:31,800 textbooks that he says will start soon and why parents 73 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,200 should be concerned. We started by asking him why he 74 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,600 decided to speak up against the cuts made in textbooks only now 75 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,200 So you and yogendra yadav. Weather forced to seek the 76 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:46,200 removal of your names from the textbook. 77 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,800 At what point did you decide to seek this? 78 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:55,600 Because the rationalization has been taking place since 2020, 79 00:04:56,100 --> 00:04:59,700 our attention was drawn last year in the first place. 80 00:05:00,700 --> 00:05:07,400 When this, in CLT said that they having something like 30 percent 81 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:12,500 reduction in the syllabus That time also we had spoken publicly 82 00:05:12,500 --> 00:05:18,400 about this that from an educational you point a 30% 83 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:23,000 reduction does not help the child to readjust to the post 84 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,500 covid educational scenario. But we thought that this was 85 00:05:27,500 --> 00:05:32,500 only because of covid. Now, this year, the first thing 86 00:05:32,500 --> 00:05:36,400 that happened was that the initial T said that the same 87 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:41,400 changes will. Now continue and secondly they 88 00:05:41,500 --> 00:05:47,600 were very vague circular on their website saying that even 89 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,800 if certain changes are not listed here but affected in the 90 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:58,700 text, They will be effective that alerted us to possibility 91 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,800 that this is something more than what is called rationalization 92 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:07,600 or Readjustment due to the covid situation. 93 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:13,500 The in CRT needs defense, also came out by saying that over a 94 00:06:13,500 --> 00:06:17,900 period of Time, new knowledge, emerges and takes books need to 95 00:06:17,900 --> 00:06:21,400 reflect that new knowledge. And therefore, we will curious 96 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:26,300 what new knowledge has emerged. About Indian politics that makes 97 00:06:26,300 --> 00:06:30,600 certain changes necessary. Like for example, deletion of 98 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:35,700 the discussion of diversity from the chapters on Democracy, we 99 00:06:35,700 --> 00:06:40,100 didn't agree with this idea that any new knowledge has emerged 100 00:06:40,300 --> 00:06:44,100 which would tell us that diversity need not be discussed 101 00:06:44,100 --> 00:06:47,900 along with democracy. There has been a letter written 102 00:06:47,900 --> 00:06:52,200 by the heads of multiple institute's countering you and 103 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,000 mr. Yadav's demand to have your 104 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,000 names removed from the textbook, so why won't you settle for 105 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,600 anything less than the removal of your names? 106 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,400 In this case? Also, what does the presence of 107 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:08,900 your name? If the textbook mean for me, it 108 00:07:08,900 --> 00:07:13,100 was a matter of Pride. We were very happy 15 years ago 109 00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:16,100 or 17 years ago that we had this opportunity. 110 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,000 Opportunity to do something, which was reasonably good. 111 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,000 I suppose many students have been writing to us that they 112 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:28,200 enjoyed the paper books and even when they grow up they have fond 113 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,000 memories of these textbooks but that is not for us to decide 114 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,000 whether the textbooks are good or not. 115 00:07:34,100 --> 00:07:39,000 We can say that we spend two years and by we I mean not just 116 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:43,800 two of us but there was a group of almost 40 Scholars teachers 117 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,800 from schools and so on and so forth. 118 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:50,500 Sprinkle a couple of years on that in repairing, the state's 119 00:07:50,500 --> 00:07:54,100 books, we were all so happy that for the first time you could do 120 00:07:54,100 --> 00:07:57,700 away with the topic called cilix, known this quick 121 00:07:57,700 --> 00:08:03,100 curriculum, and bring political science in its place, that is 122 00:08:03,100 --> 00:08:07,900 where the textbooks on Democracy come for class, 9, and 4 class 123 00:08:07,900 --> 00:08:11,000 10. So the idea was not to create an 124 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,200 obedient citizen but to create a questioning citizen. 125 00:08:15,500 --> 00:08:21,300 Now, we We think that that happiness is gone because of 126 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:25,300 this action taken by the ncart instill, the elite, 127 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:30,200 operationalized manner, they could have said that we are 128 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,600 changing the committee. They could have said that we are 129 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:37,000 changing the text books also and we wouldn't have complained 130 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:42,299 because it is quite fair that in CRT, has the right to change the 131 00:08:42,299 --> 00:08:46,000 committee, get expert advice from others and prepare. 132 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:52,400 In new text without doing that. They have taken reports to this 133 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,500 set of huge therefore we were worried and it's not a question 134 00:08:56,500 --> 00:09:00,600 of what you would settle for. We wanted to bring it to the 135 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,400 notice of the public that this still lie. 136 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:09,400 Manipulation of the texts is going one and that is 137 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:14,600 legitimised in our names. I don't mind and I'm sure others 138 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:19,200 would also not wine. If the names of those experts 139 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:23,700 who advise to you ncert to do, all, this are put there because 140 00:09:23,700 --> 00:09:26,400 then there would be a criticism from outside. 141 00:09:26,700 --> 00:09:29,800 We would still criticize if you don't agree but that you will be 142 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:35,100 an external criticism. Not a case of this complaint, 143 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:40,700 are you also mentioned some 100 academicians who have taken out 144 00:09:40,700 --> 00:09:45,300 a statement. I try to read their names and 145 00:09:45,300 --> 00:09:50,300 the initial 30 or more, our educational administrators often 146 00:09:50,300 --> 00:09:54,600 appointed by the government's either government of India or 147 00:09:54,600 --> 00:10:00,100 different state governments. What I feel bad about was that 148 00:10:00,500 --> 00:10:05,700 they simply impute motives one allegation is we want publicity, 149 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,800 and that's why we are doing it. If so, this shouldn't have 150 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,400 responded because their response has probably given as more 151 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,900 publicity, but the other allegation is that, we are 152 00:10:18,900 --> 00:10:22,800 hindering, the process of implementing new education 153 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,400 policy, which is rather ridiculous. 154 00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:29,500 Because here the discussion of new education policy doesn't 155 00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:33,900 appear anywhere. They also point out that these 156 00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:38,500 textbooks are 17 years old and therefore we wanted to hold 157 00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:43,500 knowledge to continue. As I said, we are very welcome 158 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,100 to the idea of new knowledge being taught. 159 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,200 We are not saying that this textbook should continue 160 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:54,100 permanently at all. In fact you will find that this 161 00:10:54,100 --> 00:10:58,000 is for the first time of 25 years that is full majority 162 00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,800 government came to power in Delhi. 163 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:04,100 So why didn't the government? Formulate, the new education 164 00:11:04,100 --> 00:11:08,100 policy earlier so that new textbooks could be made. 165 00:11:08,300 --> 00:11:10,400 They didn't do it. It's only now. 166 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,600 Now that the implementation is likely to begin from this year 167 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:17,700 and the next year. So I don't think that that 168 00:11:17,700 --> 00:11:20,800 criticism by his academicians is fair real. 169 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,600 Things like food rot while and talk 2002 and emergency are 170 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,700 deleted from the syllabus. So I would like to understand 171 00:11:30,700 --> 00:11:37,200 that deleting actual events from the books, how it impacts the 172 00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:41,600 future education. See this book about which you 173 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,300 are talking is a book about politics after Independence, and 174 00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:49,500 the students who were supposed to be studying this textbook 175 00:11:50,700 --> 00:11:54,200 where Class 12 students, who are already voters. 176 00:11:55,300 --> 00:12:00,300 And therefore, we thought that there is no reason for us to be 177 00:12:00,300 --> 00:12:05,400 prudish, in deleting certain things because they are young 178 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,700 children, rather than that, let us present them with what 179 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:16,200 Problems and challenges, India's democracy has faced so far about 180 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,600 Gujarat. For example, while the violence 181 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:25,400 in Gujarat, the 34 pages of that are totally taken out the 182 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,800 anti-sikh violence continues to have a mention in the textbook 183 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,600 and that makes their delicious selectively. 184 00:12:33,700 --> 00:12:36,900 So it is not as if all references to communal violence 185 00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:39,700 and taken off but only one particular reference. 186 00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:44,400 He's taken off about the emergency curiously. 187 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,700 Some parts of the emergency story have been kept and then 188 00:12:48,700 --> 00:12:53,400 some quartz about what are the lessons of emergency and What 189 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:58,300 are the consequences of that episode, which really tells the 190 00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:03,700 student to prove, the nature of our democracy they were in taken 191 00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:07,600 from. So it is this, which in a sense 192 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,800 was disturbing, Also do you mentioned about Political 193 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:16,200 Science teaching why it is important to the student in your 194 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,600 opinion, why it is important to understand or get the critical 195 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:26,900 view in democracy as a citizen? I think this should be agreed 196 00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:31,500 upon as a society. That the very purpose of 197 00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:36,000 education is to create curiosity, not to give 198 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:41,300 information but to make the stew, Students ask questions at 199 00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:45,300 every level, I don't think this is limited with only two 200 00:13:45,500 --> 00:13:50,600 political science, purpose of any science and therefore any 201 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:56,300 educational tool should be to create curiosity and to create a 202 00:13:56,300 --> 00:13:59,600 spirit of questioning that is what is necessary. 203 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:03,500 Historically education has always been seen in two 204 00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:06,800 different ways. One, it is seen as an instrument 205 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,700 of the ruling classes to Obedient citizens. 206 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:17,400 And to it is always seen as a challenge to the rulers, and we 207 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,300 think that education should be the lighter and it is the 208 00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:24,000 overall approach not just of this team. 209 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:28,900 But of the national curriculum framework of 2005, we were 210 00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:33,100 talking about the political changes made or deletions made 211 00:14:33,100 --> 00:14:36,200 in the political science subject, but as we know that 212 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,100 this is not limited to one subject, It. 213 00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:43,000 And it is actually the life larger issue here. 214 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,000 When we are talking about the syllabus with your kind of 215 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,800 experience, where do you see this going? 216 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:52,600 I was discussing with another educationalists who said that 217 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:55,300 this is part of hindutva project. 218 00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:59,100 Do you see that this is going in the light of the political 219 00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:05,100 ideology of hindutva rushed or at least in political science? 220 00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:12,800 There seems to be an emphasis on what is Called a homogeneous 221 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:17,500 idea of Indian unity. And that's why we thought that 222 00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:19,700 the reference to diversity is taken away. 223 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,900 The discussion of Federalism is cut short and so on and so. 224 00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:30,700 So the reference to Gujarat is taken out for a more simplistic 225 00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:36,300 reason that the ruling party finds it inconvenient combining 226 00:15:36,300 --> 00:15:41,200 these two at least I would personally be persuaded by the 227 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:46,800 argument that these changes are a Prelude to a larger 228 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:52,000 ideologically driven project of page book writing in the future 229 00:15:52,700 --> 00:15:55,300 that is corroborated. Also by what has happened in 230 00:15:55,300 --> 00:15:59,100 sociology textbooks, where discussions of caste and gender 231 00:15:59,100 --> 00:16:02,400 are truncated, that is am. So also happened in history 232 00:16:02,700 --> 00:16:08,300 where their removal of reference to Mughal rulers is being 233 00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:12,000 waived. I suspect that this government 234 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:17,000 at least in its second term, is pushing the ideological agenda. 235 00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:21,900 Very strongly. And obviously, if you can Shin 236 00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:27,100 is an important field where such ideological agenda is very 237 00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:31,800 quickly pushed in, so I am worried that the next series of 238 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:35,500 tests books, what their ideological quality would 239 00:16:35,500 --> 00:16:42,400 definitely be in tune with What kind of society the current 240 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,800 government imagines we have as a shorthand to that this term word 241 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,100 Hindu, which has nothing to do with Hindu religion. 242 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,200 So, I am not saying that the textbooks will be upholding 243 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:59,000 Hindu religion as such, but there would be various ideas of 244 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:04,500 force, various ideas of militancy, various ideas of 245 00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:08,700 unified nationalism and an extraordinary. 246 00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:14,500 Emphasis on nationalism which to come into the textbooks now, 247 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:19,700 that is definitely a possibility when most important part which 248 00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:22,200 is kind of related is people's moment right. 249 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:27,000 Occur it, I have seen that protester on our on waits for 250 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:32,500 iterate as anti-development section of the society from the 251 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,000 rulers. And number two, recently prime 252 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,800 minister of India had called them undulant fever. 253 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:44,400 Kind of derogatory word and then removing underline or people's 254 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,900 movement from the syllabus. We see it in the education 255 00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:52,200 system. So how important is it to teach 256 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:56,500 about people's movement in the school and what impact it will 257 00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:59,700 have? If one looks at the development 258 00:17:59,700 --> 00:18:03,600 of India's democracy, you will find historically. 259 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,800 It started with movements only elections came later and this is 260 00:18:08,900 --> 00:18:12,100 What does the Nationalist movement, for freedom of India? 261 00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:16,800 My starting point for the development or evolution of 262 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:21,900 Indian democracy would be, what fully and a miracle we're doing. 263 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:28,300 When in the 19th century, fully mobilizes, the so-called sugar 264 00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:31,100 has against grammatical domination. 265 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:36,700 I will read it as an embryonic, beginning of democracy in this 266 00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:40,700 country, fully might not have have talked in terms of Abraham 267 00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:44,100 Lincoln's or our modern theory of democracy. 268 00:18:44,100 --> 00:18:46,500 But what he was talking about was right? 269 00:18:46,700 --> 00:18:50,400 What he was talking about, was human dignity, and what he was 270 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,700 talking about was equality, that is democracy. 271 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,600 So, our democracy Indian democracy has this extraordinary 272 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:03,500 distinction of having returned with movements and having been 273 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,300 enriched by movements that is what Mars of Terror of dr. 274 00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:12,700 Ambedkar Is and therefore that is what the larger nationalist 275 00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:16,200 movement. Also is carrying forward, This 276 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,700 legal see in the post-independence period. 277 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,300 Although government's never like protest movements or people's 278 00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:28,500 movements, they not only tolerated but responded to those 279 00:19:28,500 --> 00:19:32,900 movements democratically. New didn't like the movements 280 00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:38,100 for linguistic States but he considered linguistic skills. 281 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:43,600 Nobody likes the movements, the secessionist movements as they 282 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:49,000 are called in nagaland and in other parts of the country but 283 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,300 what the Indian government subsequently did was to talk to 284 00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:56,800 Naga Rebels. For a number of years patiently, 285 00:19:57,100 --> 00:19:59,100 do the issue has not been resolved. 286 00:19:59,700 --> 00:20:03,800 They beat the same with measles because there was also a Museo 287 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,100 Nacional friend which wanted to be separated from India. 288 00:20:09,500 --> 00:20:12,200 Talking to them. The issue was resolved. 289 00:20:12,700 --> 00:20:16,500 So you will find that democracy is not about just voting and 290 00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:19,100 elections. It is much more than that. 291 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,500 And India has a rich tradition of that much more. 292 00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:27,500 The Western world has realized this only later that civil 293 00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:32,100 society as they now call, it is very important in democracy. 294 00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:35,400 If you look at India, India actually starts with that 295 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,700 intervention of the Civil Society into politics. 296 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,500 X and only them in the 20th. Century electoral politics 297 00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:47,500 begins to shape. So I think deletion of this Rich 298 00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:51,100 Heritage of our own and you know this is something in this 299 00:20:51,100 --> 00:20:53,000 contribution to democratic theory. 300 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:58,100 So you are taking it out. So what kind of a national is 301 00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:02,000 you are if you are taking out, India's own Heritage out of the 302 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,900 syllabus just for your pity immediate political 303 00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:08,100 considerations, that's the question. 304 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,500 As a parent, why I should be concerned about this changes. 305 00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:17,200 I mean, academician or professors, like, you are 306 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,600 raising boys. That is important, but we have 307 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:24,100 not heard anything on National level from parents groups. 308 00:21:24,100 --> 00:21:27,400 You know, the reaction is still coming from the intellectual 309 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:31,200 class. It's a very large issue really, 310 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,600 to begin with parents, didn't really think only in terms of 311 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,900 examinations often. And therefore, they are not 312 00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:43,300 worried about the contents as such. 313 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,300 But what will be asked if the examination how the child will 314 00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:50,200 be tested and so on and so forth? 315 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:56,500 Secondly awareness about the contents of the text books in 316 00:21:56,500 --> 00:21:58,900 our country. Among parents are among the 317 00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:02,200 general, public has always been very limited. 318 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:07,200 It is, unfortunately seen as the business business of the 319 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:11,700 Educators and the issue. Creationists, as a matter of 320 00:22:11,700 --> 00:22:15,500 fact, textbooks is such an important thing that it 321 00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:20,200 shouldn't be left to The Experts and parents should be carefully. 322 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:25,100 Reading those textbooks and having a certain opinion on 323 00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:30,200 those textbooks. So rudely you are asking why our 324 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,800 parents not worried. The answer would obviously in 325 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:38,000 the third-place be that our society today. 326 00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:43,700 Least one large section of the society is not at all worried 327 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:49,400 about the rise of individual, or the rise of what I prefer to 328 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:55,000 call as majoritarian democracy. We, as a society, whether we 329 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,600 work in education or Media or in private other sectors, we are 330 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:04,900 not worried about this Prospect of democracy being transformed 331 00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:08,300 before. Our own eyes into majoritarian 332 00:23:08,300 --> 00:23:11,400 democracy. Crasy it diverse Society being 333 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:17,400 transformed into a unified monoliths that we should eat the 334 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,400 same thing that we should not eat. 335 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,300 What? Some other people also don't eat 336 00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:26,600 that we should wear a certain type of clothing. 337 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,200 Dress codes are being slowly imposed one way or the other. 338 00:23:31,700 --> 00:23:36,900 And in other words, this vaccination for uniformity is 339 00:23:36,900 --> 00:23:40,100 there that if there is Is everything uniform. 340 00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:42,900 Then nobody will stop us from becoming a great nation. 341 00:23:43,300 --> 00:23:46,800 That is something, which is happening around us before our 342 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,400 own eyes. And generally there has been no 343 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,300 resistance to that. So I think, when you ask why 344 00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:57,700 parents are not doing this, Facebook's the counter question 345 00:23:57,700 --> 00:24:01,400 will be as a society. Why are we generally not worried 346 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,000 about the changes that are happening in our society? 347 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,700 The National Education policy and National curriculum 348 00:24:08,700 --> 00:24:10,900 framework are also under development. 349 00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:15,200 So how do you see these changes playing out in the Indian 350 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,700 education system? See with all its limitations, 351 00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:25,700 the original new education policy has such began with all 352 00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:32,000 the correct noises or you may say they ticked all the boxes. 353 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,900 Because nobody can challenge or complain about Indian ization of 354 00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:44,100 Education, nobody can complain about Indian languages to be 355 00:24:44,100 --> 00:24:50,100 given preference in education. The trouble is that, while that 356 00:24:50,100 --> 00:24:55,400 expert group did its job. Now it is in the hands of those 357 00:24:56,100 --> 00:25:00,600 who are very useful and instrumental, in pushing the 358 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,300 Hindu to agenda for the domain and therefore as the new 359 00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:09,500 education policy unfolds then new, curriculum Frameworks 360 00:25:09,500 --> 00:25:12,500 unfold. I think we would have another 361 00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:18,200 round of debate on what actually is included and what is Some 362 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,000 day, I will just give you a small example. 363 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,700 Even before this new curriculum framework comes in Delhi 364 00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:28,300 University. This battle has been going on 365 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:33,700 about having a separate ozone, savarkar or not having a course 366 00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:37,800 on ambedkar, even before the new curriculum framework comes in 367 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:43,500 the textbooks, in Karnataka bear time for it last year and he'd 368 00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:49,200 give our and sour curls, right? Things were included in those 369 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,800 textbooks. So I think this infiltration or 370 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:59,500 penetration of the educational scenario has already started. 371 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,600 Now we will see in the next step of that when the new education 372 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:09,400 policy begins to unroll from this end and next year, and the 373 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,900 stage, next, that would be a complete infiltration of the 374 00:26:13,900 --> 00:26:16,700 education system through new textbooks. 375 00:26:17,500 --> 00:26:20,100 You said that, you know, governments are accused of doing 376 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:23,100 this at all times of using textbooks to drive. 377 00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:27,200 Agendas is there an instance, that comes to your mind of 378 00:26:27,300 --> 00:26:30,200 something of this scale? That's being attempted now? 379 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:34,100 And, you know, is there a sort of lesson for us in that? 380 00:26:35,500 --> 00:26:38,900 No, the point you're raising is very interesting. 381 00:26:39,100 --> 00:26:43,200 Governments always have been doing this both at the state 382 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,200 level as well as at the all India level. 383 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,600 The nearest examples would perhaps come in the case of the 384 00:26:51,300 --> 00:26:53,800 left front governments in West Bengal. 385 00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:58,500 But otherwise the at the national level in spite of the 386 00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:05,100 various interferences this kind of ambition of having The 387 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,200 textbooks of a particular kind that would penetrate the minds 388 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,100 of children is probably happening for the first time and 389 00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:18,300 that is because we for the first time have an extremely 390 00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:22,500 ideologically driven. Government at the helm, s 391 00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:26,700 interest government though, having some preferences for this 392 00:27:26,700 --> 00:27:31,600 or that ideological Viewpoint would always be very limited in 393 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,900 its interventions. And that's why I would say that. 394 00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:38,000 Don't find that. If one is discussing the in 395 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,900 Sierra tea, I think this is a moment of Crisis for ncert 396 00:27:42,100 --> 00:27:45,400 because there is going to be a measure interference in the 397 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,200 working of the ncer in that light. 398 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,500 Then you know who sort of protects the sort of wisdom that 399 00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:55,700 we have acquired over the years because you're shrinking the 400 00:27:55,700 --> 00:27:59,400 space for younger students to acquire it. 401 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,300 Is it the institutions that will now be tasked with sort of 402 00:28:03,500 --> 00:28:06,300 expanding students Minds, And is it parents? 403 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,400 Where does that happen? Then that's difficult to see the 404 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,800 first answer to your question would actually be that there 405 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,400 would also be a shrinking or blinking of the public mind in 406 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,400 the future. If the same thing continues 10, 407 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,800 15 years down the line, the new generation of children, having 408 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,900 come out of schools would have a blinkered view of society way. 409 00:28:30,900 --> 00:28:35,100 Blinkered view of how gender relations should be and if You 410 00:28:35,108 --> 00:28:40,300 could you how once to look at Muslims or other devices or 411 00:28:40,300 --> 00:28:43,400 North East Indians. So that is the blinking we are 412 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,000 narrowing, our vision rather than broadening it that 413 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:51,300 unfortunately seems to me to be a possibility, and do you see 414 00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:58,200 anyone being able to public media Public intellectuals 415 00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:02,000 public? Minded individuals groups will 416 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,200 always keep fighting but I guess they would be Small Pockets 417 00:29:06,300 --> 00:29:10,100 rather than the mainstream. So what is changing is that the 418 00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:13,900 mainstream is being blinkered and the pockets, would try to 419 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:19,500 Broadway's that mainstream which is a tough task which would take 420 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,900 maybe another quarter of a century. 421 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:28,100 So what you do in two years to remove that and to restore or at 422 00:29:28,100 --> 00:29:31,500 least enrich the society would require 20 years. 423 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,800 And that's why this entire noise-making or as our Respond 424 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,600 spectacle making. We are making a spectacle, not 425 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,500 for our own sake, but because we know that the damage we are 426 00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:46,700 doing is easy to do to reconstruct. 427 00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:51,000 It would take another generation, is there a scenario 428 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,400 in which you see yourself participating in a process of 429 00:29:55,400 --> 00:30:00,600 textbook writing like this ever again, you are asking a 430 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:06,400 hypothetical question and my answer to that is I am unlikely. 431 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,800 Having made so much noise and trouble for the establishment. 432 00:30:10,300 --> 00:30:14,400 I'm unlikely now to be invited by anyone, either going to be 433 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,000 any party which comes to power, they will be worried because no 434 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:24,600 quality is really likes. People of independent wind to 435 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:30,900 prepare textbooks, but my Frank answer would be that if any 436 00:30:30,900 --> 00:30:34,600 intellectual is invited to participate in that trouble. 437 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,500 And if that intellectual also is given the guarantee that an 438 00:30:39,500 --> 00:30:43,500 intellectual autonomy would be accepted, then there should be 439 00:30:43,500 --> 00:30:47,500 no problem in participating. We participated in when the 440 00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:51,500 Congress government was in power, having been opposed to 441 00:30:51,500 --> 00:30:54,700 many things that the Congress has always been doing. 442 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,900 And yet, we were given the autonomy. 443 00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:02,800 We were protected in the sense by the ncart itself, when we 444 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,600 decided to write a chapter on him, Urgency during Congress 445 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:12,500 rule, our critiques really don't give a second to think about 446 00:31:12,500 --> 00:31:17,000 this that this chapter on emergency has come into the 447 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,200 textbooks when the congress party was in power. 448 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:23,800 The credit partly would of course, go to the congress 449 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,900 party. But more credit would go to the 450 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:35,800 ncart and also to process people who was like a strong People are 451 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,800 always there to protect all textbook committees from any 452 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,400 government intervention. He would tell the government, 453 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,300 please don't interfere. And that moral Authority is 454 00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:50,100 something that we need today. I don't know if anyone would 455 00:31:50,100 --> 00:31:52,900 have that moral Authority. I don't know whether this 456 00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:58,100 government should also have the moral embarrassment of agreeing 457 00:31:58,100 --> 00:32:00,900 or not agreeing to people of that stature. 458 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,300 And therefore, I don't know whether I would participate, but 459 00:32:04,300 --> 00:32:09,400 if He says okay this textbooks like you wrote last time then 460 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,400 why not it would be a good thing and a fun to do it. 461 00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:18,700 My fear is not just that nobody would invite but that nobody 462 00:32:18,700 --> 00:32:23,500 would give even a limited autonomy to the textbook teams 463 00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:31,900 anymore. Today's episode was produced by 464 00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:35,200 Jay Raj, Singh soon. I moratti and on Vijay Singh for 465 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,000 a daily Spotlight. On people ideas and stories that 466 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,800 matter, subscribe to us. We are available on T. 467 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:45,800 Y+ Spotify, Apple Google podcast and all other platforms of your 468 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,000 choice. For any new steps email us at 469 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,900 DIY podcast at times, internet dot in.