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From India's largest newsroom, 
I'm Arun George and this is the 

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Times of India podcast. 
The Women's Reservation Bill may

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have been passed by parliament, 
but as multiple opposition 

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parties have pointed out, it's 
on hold for a while. 

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First, there needs to be a 
census that hasn't been 

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conducted since 2011. 
Then there needs to be the 

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process of delimitation. 
Doctor Jay Prakash Narayan is a 

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retired IAS official and set up 
the Foundation for Democratic 

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Reforms, which aims to improve 
governance in the country. 

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He also set up the Loksatta 
movement and the Loksatta Party 

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to motivate people to join 
politics and to educate people 

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about governance. 
He says that the process to give

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women reservation in parliament 
and state assemblies could have 

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been much easier. 
We are not still at thousands in

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knots by having a very 
complicated model which 

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necessitated waiting for a 
delimitation again. 

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Which itself was stalled because
of the constitutional amendments

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ever since 1976. 
So we complicate lives. 

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A simpler model, though, made it
much, much better. 

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We could have straight to be 
implemented. 

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But, you know, let's rejoice, at
least after 2530 years of a lot 

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of talk and very little action 
long last. 

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No near unanimity is there in 
Parliament, it appears, in the 

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parliamentary debates. 
Both the government and 

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opposition, they hinted that 
they're willing to look at 

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better models. 
As long as, no, this is 

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ironclad, you cannot go back on 
this. 

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So let us see if they're willing
to look at something better. 

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But it could have been done. 
It could have been done 

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immediately and in a much more 
need fashion. 

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But we're not talking to Dr. Jay
Prakash Narayan about the 

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Women's Reservation Bill. 
We're talking with him about the

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process of delimitation or the 
redrawing of parliamentary and 

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state assembly constituencies in
India. 

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The delimitation exercise would 
be carried out on the basis of 

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the census. 
The process of delimitation is 

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seeing a lot of political 
debate, despite the fact that 

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it's not going to be done before
2026. 

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A lot of the southern states in 
India are worried that the 

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process of delimitation would 
reduce the number of Mp's the 

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states sent to Parliament. 
It's also feared it will reduce 

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the funds received by states in 
the South from the central 

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government. 
In today's episode, Doctor Jay 

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Prakash Narayan is in 
conversation with my colleague 

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Alka Dupkar and me about the 
process of delimitation and they

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need to conduct it. 
He also explains why it hasn't 

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been conducted since 1976 and 
how it can be done without 

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increasing the political 
temperature. 

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Now coming to the main subject 
of delimitation, what is the 

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delimitation exercise and why it
is needed? 

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Every democratic country has the
constituencies for the election 

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to legislature based on 
population. 

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After all, the basic principle 
is one person, one vote. 

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So equitable vote. 
Whether and richer core one 

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human being must have roughly 
the same political power in 

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terms of voice and voting as 
another human being. 

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And our Constitution also 
clearly provided for 

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redistribution or delimitation, 
as we call it, of constituencies

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based on population. 
Every 10 years, the Constitution

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said A. 
The number of Lok Sabha seats 

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allocated to a state shall be as
closely as possible in 

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proportion to. 
The population of the state 

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based on the latest census and 
after every census you must 

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conduct this exercise so that 
the number of seats are 

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allocated to a state first as 
far as practicable. 

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The second thing the 
Constitution said is that once 

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the number is allocated, the 
seat service redistributed every

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10 years. 
Because not only do you require 

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redistribution because the 
allocation changes from state to

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state for the Lok Sabha every 10
years, but within a state. 

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The population changes within 
the ten years. 

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We know large pockets of the 
country. 

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Increasingly now the rural 
population is declining, at 

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least where the birth rates are 
coming down. 

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Urban population is increasing, 
therefore delimitation within 

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the state also. 
And that happened after 1951 

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census. 
It happened after 61 census. 

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After 71 census 3 delimitation 
commissions worked on this and 

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everything went off very well. 
Then came the constitutional 

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amendment in 1976. 
It was in 1976 that it was 

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decided to freeze the Lok Sabha 
constituencies as they stood at 

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the time. 
In 2001, the Atal Bihari 

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Vajpayee government also decided
to keep the constituencies as 

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they were. 
Doctor Jayaprakash Narayan 

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explains the role he played in 
that and why the government 

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decided to keep the decision on 
hold for another 20-5 years. 

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He admits it's difficult to 
judge whether the decision to 

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put it on hold in 1976 was a 
good one or a bad one. 

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But he says as far as he knows, 
there was number Malified 

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intent. 
The then Prime Minister Mrs. 

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Indira Gandhi, seem to have 
genuinely believed that you must

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not create perverse incentives 
for population increase to 

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punish states which have been 
able to contain the population. 

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Growth will be reopened only in 
2001, they said they thought 25 

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is a long time. 
Then 2001 came Vajpayee. 

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Government was in office, then 
some of us particularly late. 

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She has faces of Ramakrishnan. 
The former Secretary, Government

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of India in Urban Development 
and I, we took the initiative 

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because we sensed it that this 
is coming and unless we handle 

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it well, there will be political
challenges. 

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So we appeal to the government 
to allow status quo to continue.

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Whether it is a good judgment or
not I cannot say. 

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But at that point of time we 
felt the country was politically

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somewhat unstable. 
If you remember the watch by 

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government did not have very 
great majority a multi party 

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coalition. 
And economy was just then. 

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They're trying to recover from 
the difficulties faced poker and

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explosion led to sanctions etc. 
Therefore, economy, we're just 

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not then trying to get back on 
our feet. 

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And if we reopen this Pandora's 
box, the fear was that it will 

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consume all our energy. 
It will hurt the economy and the

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country and the political 
stability and that argument they

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bought it and therefore. 
They said the numbers will be 

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frozen for another 25 years. 
We kick the can down the road. 

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Honestly, I thought 25 years is 
a long time. 

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We will see what will happen 
then, little knowing that 25 

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years passes by very fast. 
And now we are saddled with that

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again in 2026. 
The normal process is that each 

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person in a democracy will have 
roughly equal weightage in terms

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of the vote or in terms of 
representation. 

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Therefore, you cannot really 
have any strong argument 

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against. 
Going back to the redistribution

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based on the census data, so in.
Nutshell, are you suggesting 

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that north-south divide, which 
will happen based on population,

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is unavoidable? 
One day or other, we have to 

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face it when demographic 
differences are there and they 

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also accompany economic 
disparities. 

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May take Bihar. 
Bihar has actually 1/4 of the 

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per capita income of the. 
Better off states like 

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Maharashtra or Tamil Nadu or 
Karnataka. 

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Just to clarify, the per capita 
income is the income earned by 

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each person in the state. 
This is calculated by dividing 

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the state's income by the number
of people living in it. 

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And Bihar is not a tiny state 
with a million population, it's 

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a state with, I don't know the 
current population but probably 

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about ten floor. 
And normally what happens in 

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countries where migration is 
very common within the country, 

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like United States. 
Many more people tend to migrate

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within the country than other 
countries. 

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There's far greater migration 
than India. 

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So migration addresses the 
challenges. 

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And also after a certain level 
of development, population 

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actually is an asset. 
Therefore, more people migrating

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into the area actually 
stimulates economic growth. 

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We're not there yet. 
And migration does take place in

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India. 
But migration still is 

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relatively not very large in 
India from state to state, while

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it is taking place more than 
hour before. 

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Therefore, that does not 
automatically address the 

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demographic problem. 
And without addressing the 

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demographic problem and the 
political representation, I 

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don't think we can go far. 
Southern states like Tamil Nadu 

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haven't quite welcomed the 
delimitation exercise. 

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They have called it the 
political conspiracy to lower 

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the political representation of 
South India, the fear that they 

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have controlled the population 
and that's why they will be 

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punished, how the fear should be
handled. 

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Every state the birth rates are 
coming down. 

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Some states are ahead of other 
states, even Bihar, which has 

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the highest birth rate in India.
There is an expression called 

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fertility rate that means the 
number of children a woman based

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during her reproductive life. 
Bihar used to be 4 some 1520 

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years ago. 
Now I think Bihar is close to 

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three every state. 
The birth rates are declining 

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and fertility rates are 
declining. 

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First, I want us to all 
understand this panic that my 

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God population is growing out of
control. 

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What will happen is not true. 
It's just that some states 

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because of historical, political
and economic reasons. 

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They have been a little ahead of
the cow, but every state is 

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following so and every segment 
of population. 

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The rich and the poor, the urban
and the rural, the Hindu and the

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Muslim and the Christian and 
upper caste and the poorer 

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caste. 
Every segment of the population,

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the birth rates and fertility 
rates are declining. 

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The second is it's unfair to say
that representation in 

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proportion to population is 
political conspiracy every 

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country. 
Worth mentioning of the 

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democracy as the same principle.
We adopted the same principles 

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part of the Constitution. 
I don't think that Ambedkar and 

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the Constitution makers indulged
in a deliberate conspiracy to 

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hurt all of us. 
Freedom fighters were very 

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learned people. 
They were fully aware and yet 

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they had the delimitation based 
on census every 10 years. 

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We cannot call it a conspiracy. 
Unity of India is paramount in 

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Matthew. 
Unity is critical for order and 

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peace and harmony in society. 
We don't have a record of 

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peacefully coexisting as 
separate political entities, 

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even a state division, Andhra 
Pradesh and Telangana. 

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There was so much of A strife 
only now people are trying to 

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forget the what happened even 
though some people feel very 

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strongly. 
So we are very volatile. 

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Therefore, unity to me is the 
most paramount consideration, 

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because without unity and order 
in society. 

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There cannot be economic growth 
and they cannot be freedom. 

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And I think all of us must pause
a little bit and stop using the 

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rhetoric. 
That is a conspiracy. 

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It's not a conspiracy. 
Yes, a negotiation is necessary.

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Yes, some kind of adjustment is 
necessary. 

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In the 1960s, when there were 
attempts to impose Hindi and the

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whole country, Tamil Nadu 
heroically resistant. 

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And I think India's unity was 
safeguarded because of the 

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wisdom of the political 
leadership of the country. 

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By ensuring that while Hindi 
with the national language, 

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English will continue to the 
link language of India and the 

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national language as long as 
people of India want, that is 

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forever. 
So we require that kind of a 

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negotiation and compromise, 
keeping in mind the unity of 

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India, rather than use a very 
explosive rhetoric. 

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So in your opinion, what are the
ways or what are the 

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negotiations? 
That should take place to avoid 

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the north-south divide. 
Population control and 

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population representation in 
today's political culture has 

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become the center stage of the 
controversy. 

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Some states, if you take the 
current number of Lok Sabha and 

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if you redistribute that in 
proportion to the population 

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currently, some states will lose
a significant number of 

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representatives. 
Tamil Nadu and Kerala. 

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Most of all, my ballpark number 
is Kerala out of 20, may lose 

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about 6:00 or so. 
Coming out of 39 we lose eight 

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or nine other states. 
There will be relatively minor 

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adjustments. 
States like Maharashtra where 

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they are prosperous and they 
contain population because of in

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migration that may not make much
of a difference and states like 

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UP and Bihar they will get a few
more representatives then they 

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have currently. 
So one easy ways can we maintain

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the minimum number whatever the 
current number and therefore to 

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the doesn't increase the size of
Lok Sabha. 

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So first, there is no sense of 
actual loss of constituencies 

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and representation. 
I think that's an easy one. 

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I have a feeling that's already 
being considered. 

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That's why the new Parliament 
premises actually provide for 

233
00:12:35,380 --> 00:12:39,420
larger capacity, keeping in mind
or growing population and 

234
00:12:39,420 --> 00:12:41,780
therefore the increasing numbers
of the Lok Sabha. 

235
00:12:42,540 --> 00:12:46,660
The second thing is finances. 
Everybody is worried about 

236
00:12:46,660 --> 00:12:49,580
finances. 
Now we have to again practical. 

237
00:12:50,060 --> 00:12:53,940
Bihar, as I said already, is has
1/4 of the per capita income of 

238
00:12:53,940 --> 00:12:55,530
the. 
Better off states. 

239
00:12:56,250 --> 00:12:59,610
Now you cannot have one part of 
the country, a large part of the

240
00:12:59,610 --> 00:13:03,930
country, suffering from extreme 
poverty and have prosperity and 

241
00:13:03,930 --> 00:13:05,090
peace in the rest of the 
country. 

242
00:13:05,450 --> 00:13:08,210
Unless we create conditions 
through federal transfer 

243
00:13:08,210 --> 00:13:11,770
resources to improve the 
infrastructure and provide basic

244
00:13:11,770 --> 00:13:15,050
communities and services to 
every part of the country, all 

245
00:13:15,050 --> 00:13:18,410
of us will suffer. 
So can we look at the Finance 

246
00:13:18,410 --> 00:13:22,210
Commission redistribution in a 
manner that the genuine concerns

247
00:13:22,210 --> 00:13:24,370
of? 
The poor states are addressed 

248
00:13:24,650 --> 00:13:27,770
without the better off states 
feeling that you are rewarding 

249
00:13:27,770 --> 00:13:32,050
incompetence or profligacy. 
That means can we have a better 

250
00:13:32,370 --> 00:13:35,650
management of resources in every
state in terms of the 

251
00:13:35,650 --> 00:13:38,530
transferred money from Union 
government which actually goes 

252
00:13:38,530 --> 00:13:41,650
only for the capital investment,
educational, healthcare, 

253
00:13:41,690 --> 00:13:44,850
infrastructure and service 
delivery improvement. 

254
00:13:45,370 --> 00:13:48,490
The third is migration. 
India still is not seeing enough

255
00:13:48,490 --> 00:13:50,810
migration for a country of 
employment for billion people. 

256
00:13:50,810 --> 00:13:52,530
I am talking of internal 
migration. 

257
00:13:52,910 --> 00:13:56,190
And migrants, even when they 
exist, we must now give them 

258
00:13:56,190 --> 00:13:58,510
rights. 
Of there is some talk about you 

259
00:13:58,510 --> 00:14:01,710
having ration card everywhere, 
but I believe if you migrate for

260
00:14:01,710 --> 00:14:04,190
work or anything, you are a 
citizen of India anywhere. 

261
00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:07,110
Therefore you must have the 
rights of citizenship, including

262
00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:10,430
voting rights including public 
distribution, including all 

263
00:14:10,430 --> 00:14:11,870
welfare programs of the 
government. 

264
00:14:12,430 --> 00:14:15,830
If that is done, as more and 
more migration happens because 

265
00:14:15,830 --> 00:14:18,950
of economic compulsions, the 
demographic problems will not 

266
00:14:18,950 --> 00:14:22,190
appear to be big and Southern 
states already are realizing. 

267
00:14:22,570 --> 00:14:25,850
Without this migrant laborers 
from some of the more popular 

268
00:14:25,850 --> 00:14:29,290
states, many things in Bengaluru
or Mumbai cannot get done today.

269
00:14:29,730 --> 00:14:32,370
So instead of getting worked up 
about the Interstate 

270
00:14:32,370 --> 00:14:35,130
differences, we recognize we 
actually need the migrant 

271
00:14:35,130 --> 00:14:37,490
workers. 
Typically migrant workers, once 

272
00:14:37,490 --> 00:14:40,890
they are dislocated and 
approved, they work harder, they

273
00:14:40,890 --> 00:14:43,730
have dignity of Labor, they 
don't suffer from prejudices 

274
00:14:43,730 --> 00:14:46,330
which are very typical in the 
local community and they are a 

275
00:14:46,330 --> 00:14:50,660
tremendous asset in the economy.
So I think encouraging economic 

276
00:14:50,660 --> 00:14:53,580
migration within the country to 
the all down development of the 

277
00:14:53,580 --> 00:14:56,940
whole country and finally we can
probably have some kind of an 

278
00:14:56,940 --> 00:15:00,460
adjustment in the upper house if
lower house is strictly 

279
00:15:00,460 --> 00:15:03,620
according to population, can we 
have some kind of a satisfactory

280
00:15:03,620 --> 00:15:04,820
formula. 
It's not going to be easy 

281
00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:09,020
because we extremely tiny states
like Sikkim and the Mizoram and 

282
00:15:09,020 --> 00:15:12,620
we have very large states like 
UPUP is bigger than every 

283
00:15:12,620 --> 00:15:15,780
country in the world save 3. 
So we have to think very 

284
00:15:15,780 --> 00:15:17,580
innovatively and figure out some
way. 

285
00:15:18,130 --> 00:15:21,570
Of doing something, maybe in the
upper house or at the very least

286
00:15:21,570 --> 00:15:25,410
finally, we can give an ironclad
guarantee, if necessary by a 

287
00:15:25,410 --> 00:15:29,050
constitutional amendment so that
no states rights or state 

288
00:15:29,050 --> 00:15:32,410
subjects or anything will be 
affected on account of this 

289
00:15:32,410 --> 00:15:34,890
division. 
Therefore, if right now 2/3 is 

290
00:15:34,890 --> 00:15:37,250
what is required to amend the 
Constitution in respect to those

291
00:15:37,250 --> 00:15:40,330
subjects, we can say we will go 
for 4/5 or even more. 

292
00:15:40,890 --> 00:15:42,250
That should not be a difficult 
thing. 

293
00:15:42,610 --> 00:15:45,730
So there are I think, ways there
is good will all around we can 

294
00:15:45,730 --> 00:15:49,930
address these challenges. 
But the most important question 

295
00:15:50,090 --> 00:15:54,810
of getting the power, and you 
have not touched it, but today 

296
00:15:54,850 --> 00:15:59,010
who is in power is also 
important and the whole fight is

297
00:15:59,010 --> 00:16:02,570
about that. 
Also if the MP is in northern 

298
00:16:02,570 --> 00:16:05,930
part of India are going to 
increase, that will change the 

299
00:16:05,930 --> 00:16:09,810
balance. 
Alka the truth is in India. 

300
00:16:09,810 --> 00:16:13,450
Northern India always dominated 
the power structure in terms of 

301
00:16:13,450 --> 00:16:15,830
numbers. 
You take the prime ministers. 

302
00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:18,990
There are a few prime ministers 
in the South, like for instance 

303
00:16:19,390 --> 00:16:21,670
Mr. PV Narasimha Rao and Mr. 
Deva Gowda. 

304
00:16:22,390 --> 00:16:26,270
But both were prime ministers by
accident, not by political 

305
00:16:26,270 --> 00:16:29,230
strength. 
In terms of real politic, the 

306
00:16:29,230 --> 00:16:31,630
northern India will always have 
dominance. 

307
00:16:31,630 --> 00:16:34,830
In terms of the power structure 
of the Union, there is nothing 

308
00:16:34,830 --> 00:16:37,030
new. 
Let's first accept it, if 

309
00:16:37,030 --> 00:16:40,080
anything. 
The government successively and 

310
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,200
all parties have been 
extraordinarily wise. 

311
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,720
I know we blame them for many 
things that are wrong in giving 

312
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,680
reasonable representation to the
whole country in terms of the 

313
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,640
cabinet formation, etcetera. 
And 3rd. 

314
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,600
The real government for the 
people is the state. 

315
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:57,600
If you look at the elections, 
for instance of the political 

316
00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,920
behavior of the electorate, most
people vote according to their 

317
00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:03,520
perception of the state 
government. 

318
00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,520
That means power already has 
shifted to the states. 

319
00:17:07,420 --> 00:17:10,099
That ordinary people understand 
the center of gravity is now in 

320
00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:13,180
states. 
The national government is 

321
00:17:13,180 --> 00:17:15,500
largely notional. 
It's important, it's critical. 

322
00:17:15,780 --> 00:17:19,460
But in terms of political 
discourse, if you really don't 

323
00:17:19,460 --> 00:17:22,740
have the English speaking in 
national media talking all the 

324
00:17:22,740 --> 00:17:25,940
time about the power struggle in
Delhi, people actually are not 

325
00:17:25,940 --> 00:17:28,460
bothered. 
The Assembly constituency is the

326
00:17:28,780 --> 00:17:31,940
unit of politics in India and 
the state government is the 

327
00:17:31,940 --> 00:17:33,940
government that people judge 
most of the time. 

328
00:17:35,010 --> 00:17:37,330
And therefore, strengthening 
federalism and further 

329
00:17:37,330 --> 00:17:39,690
localizing government 
decentralization of government 

330
00:17:39,690 --> 00:17:43,370
to the third tier, effectively 
with accountability, will take 

331
00:17:43,370 --> 00:17:45,250
away the obsession of national 
power. 

332
00:17:45,610 --> 00:17:48,730
Will actually make us focus on 
what matters to our lives in 

333
00:17:48,730 --> 00:17:51,450
terms of service, delivery, 
education, healthcare, the park 

334
00:17:51,450 --> 00:17:55,730
in front of your house, the road
or the traffic jams and so on. 

335
00:17:56,690 --> 00:17:59,370
OK, fair enough. 
I don't completely agree with 

336
00:17:59,370 --> 00:18:01,930
you. 
Should we bifurcate States and 

337
00:18:01,930 --> 00:18:04,670
could it help? 
To keep away the north-south 

338
00:18:04,670 --> 00:18:08,390
divide. 
There is no way you can have 

339
00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:11,350
states the size of 20 crores and
15 crores. 

340
00:18:11,670 --> 00:18:14,670
Call them provinces. 
They're too big. 

341
00:18:15,070 --> 00:18:18,430
I remember making a presentation
to the Prime Minister, Rajiv 

342
00:18:18,430 --> 00:18:20,950
Gandhi as a district magistrate,
I told him then. 

343
00:18:21,430 --> 00:18:24,590
Mr. Prime Minister, district in 
India is larger than half the 

344
00:18:24,590 --> 00:18:26,590
nations of the world. 
At that time there were about 

345
00:18:26,590 --> 00:18:31,070
100 and 61170 countries. 
About 80 countries were smaller 

346
00:18:31,070 --> 00:18:32,510
than an average district of 
India. 

347
00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:35,950
I don't think the UP chief 
minister or chief secretary can 

348
00:18:35,950 --> 00:18:39,390
even suddenly name all the 
districts or name all the 

349
00:18:39,390 --> 00:18:42,550
members of parliament in their 
state or name all the district 

350
00:18:42,550 --> 00:18:47,190
magistrates in the in the state.
So I think there is a case to to

351
00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:50,550
have a moderate size, you know, 
I think you must have a rule 

352
00:18:50,550 --> 00:18:54,550
that five to seven crores. 
But we must also make it very 

353
00:18:54,550 --> 00:18:59,760
clear to our people, the state. 
The identity must not be so 

354
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,840
incredibly polarizing that no 
many people feel it's a matter 

355
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,960
of life or death, particularly 
because of linguistic 

356
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,000
reorganization. 
And given that, we must come to 

357
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:14,480
some agreement by which there 
will be 0 difference in terms of

358
00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:17,880
our lives and there will be 
fairly distributed resources. 

359
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,320
As we have seen in 
entrepreneurship, big city now 

360
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:23,720
goes to one part of the country,
one new state. 

361
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,160
The other states will feel off 
and therefore we have to figure 

362
00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:30,030
out a way. 
In which those city revenues for

363
00:19:30,030 --> 00:19:33,590
a final period, it can be 
actually shared by all or you 

364
00:19:33,590 --> 00:19:37,510
can even have a completely 
different pattern of governance 

365
00:19:37,710 --> 00:19:39,110
for the big cities in the 
country. 

366
00:19:39,510 --> 00:19:41,950
So a lot of political 
negotiations required. 

367
00:19:42,190 --> 00:19:45,030
But I think the short answer is 
yes, we have many of our states 

368
00:19:45,030 --> 00:19:48,790
are too big, and therefore 
smaller states by common 

369
00:19:48,790 --> 00:19:51,830
consent, without upsetting the 
constitutional balance in terms 

370
00:19:51,830 --> 00:19:55,390
of English, city organizations, 
etcetera, is both necessary and 

371
00:19:55,390 --> 00:19:57,620
welcome. 
And it will help the 

372
00:19:57,980 --> 00:20:00,460
delimitation exercise also in 
some way. 

373
00:20:01,340 --> 00:20:04,380
If the problem is beyond 
language you don't feel 

374
00:20:04,380 --> 00:20:07,780
culturally otherwise subjugated,
then it's easier to have a more 

375
00:20:07,780 --> 00:20:10,420
rational public discourse and 
more peaceful resolution of 

376
00:20:10,420 --> 00:20:13,380
issues. 
What would you say in this 

377
00:20:13,380 --> 00:20:18,420
current scenario where you have,
as you said, little room for 

378
00:20:18,420 --> 00:20:21,060
conciliation between the 
political parties and there is 

379
00:20:21,060 --> 00:20:23,340
also a very clear political 
divide in terms of. 

380
00:20:23,980 --> 00:20:26,700
Which parties in power and which
isn't at the center? 

381
00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:28,860
So how does that even go forward
then? 

382
00:20:28,860 --> 00:20:34,060
Should maybe it again be kicked 
down the road for 25 years from 

383
00:20:34,140 --> 00:20:39,620
purely from don't upset the 
apple cart point of view down 

384
00:20:39,620 --> 00:20:41,500
the right to man. 
Actually by that time I will not

385
00:20:41,500 --> 00:20:44,140
be there. 
I'm sure 25 years later I will 

386
00:20:44,140 --> 00:20:47,580
not be answering these 
questions, So it's a very 

387
00:20:47,780 --> 00:20:50,210
tempting option. 
But two things. 

388
00:20:50,210 --> 00:20:54,410
One, whether you like it or not,
when there is a majority stable 

389
00:20:54,410 --> 00:20:58,450
government at the national level
whose political interest 

390
00:20:58,450 --> 00:21:02,090
probably will be better served 
by getting political weightage 

391
00:21:02,090 --> 00:21:05,330
in proportion to the population,
because the regions where they 

392
00:21:05,330 --> 00:21:09,250
seem to have a certain political
strength, they are the ones 

393
00:21:09,250 --> 00:21:11,890
which probably will gain the 
political clout in terms of 

394
00:21:11,890 --> 00:21:15,650
numbers in the parliament. 
It is somewhat unrealistic to 

395
00:21:15,650 --> 00:21:19,440
expect that a party in power lat
against so self-interest. 

396
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,400
It is one thing I learnt in 
life. 

397
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:26,280
It is that a reformer must never
argue with a political leader to

398
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,200
hurt his own interest. 
We must craft the agenda in such

399
00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:32,760
a manner that their own sense of
their political interest and our

400
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,000
sense of the national interest 
they both coincide. 

401
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,200
That is when real results 
happen. 

402
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:42,000
The second thing is wonder. 
Rather, we have to grapple with 

403
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:47,070
this and luckily, particularly 
in the last 25 years, in the 30 

404
00:21:47,070 --> 00:21:50,670
years in India in particular, 
but from broadly all over the 

405
00:21:50,670 --> 00:21:54,350
world, we've learned that while 
population is a huge challenge, 

406
00:21:54,590 --> 00:21:56,710
human society, we are coming to 
terms with that. 

407
00:21:57,030 --> 00:21:59,950
In such a changing world, I 
think we must address this 

408
00:22:00,150 --> 00:22:04,240
intelligently and calmly 
unhurried deliberation rather 

409
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,280
than both sides between 
apocalyptic you know, one side 

410
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,280
we talk about democratic rights 
and defy the another side we 

411
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,160
talk about subjugation in term 
because of the minority and 

412
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:14,760
punishment because of population
control. 

413
00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:17,240
You can argue either way, but 
that's not the issue. 

414
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,560
We have to find an answer we can
live with. 

415
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:21,280
That's the way I would like to 
project. 

416
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:26,000
Given the timeline between now 
and the proposed delimitation. 

417
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,400
Period is a very. 
Short one what? 

418
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,710
Do you expect to see happen? 
See, a lot depends on the wisdom

419
00:22:32,710 --> 00:22:35,790
of the political leaders. 
It is not the people. 

420
00:22:35,790 --> 00:22:37,790
People of India are extremely 
sensible. 

421
00:22:37,790 --> 00:22:41,870
In my judgment, people of India 
are extremely conciliatory, 

422
00:22:42,070 --> 00:22:44,830
accommodation, adjustment, 
coexistent, survival, 

423
00:22:44,830 --> 00:22:46,910
compromise. 
It's part of our blood. 

424
00:22:47,270 --> 00:22:51,310
It is politics that polarizes us
for their own gains, tribalizes 

425
00:22:51,310 --> 00:22:55,190
us and that creates, you know, 
yes or no, black or white 

426
00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:57,110
situation. 
So a lot depends on the wisdom 

427
00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:59,510
of the political leaders, 
particularly those in 

428
00:22:59,510 --> 00:23:01,850
governments at the state or 
national level. 

429
00:23:02,170 --> 00:23:05,130
If they recognize the interests 
of their respective states is 

430
00:23:05,130 --> 00:23:07,730
perfectly legitimate or 
nationally, they have some point

431
00:23:07,730 --> 00:23:09,970
of perfectly legitimate. 
But if they do it in a calm 

432
00:23:09,970 --> 00:23:13,850
manner, based on evidence and 
logic, and with an intention to 

433
00:23:14,210 --> 00:23:18,010
resolve the issue rather than to
polarize the people, I think we 

434
00:23:18,010 --> 00:23:21,290
can find a solution. 
But if they deliberately provoke

435
00:23:21,610 --> 00:23:26,370
animosities and make it a very 
loud and contentious issue, then

436
00:23:26,370 --> 00:23:29,230
all bets are off. 
Doctor Jay Prakash Narayan says 

437
00:23:29,230 --> 00:23:32,270
there is a validity to the 
regional parties fears that they

438
00:23:32,270 --> 00:23:35,590
will not be consulted during the
delimitation process, especially

439
00:23:35,590 --> 00:23:38,750
the Modi government returns to 
power after the 2024 polls. 

440
00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:42,350
However, he does have some 
advice for a BJP government if 

441
00:23:42,350 --> 00:23:44,590
it does come to power again in 
2024. 

442
00:23:45,270 --> 00:23:48,750
My advice to the government 
would be, if anybody cares to 

443
00:23:48,750 --> 00:23:53,310
listen, look, it's not in your 
interest to polarize the country

444
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:55,760
in this manner, particularly in 
issues like this. 

445
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,800
Any issue of polarization is not
in your interest. 

446
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,440
But issues like this ultimately 
will be difficult to your own 

447
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,880
political future. 
If BJP has stakes in Karnataka, 

448
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:10,080
if BJP wants to grow in 
Telangana, if BJP is now making 

449
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,840
some efforts, let's say in Tamil
Nadu, these are not states where

450
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,680
you can write off, right? 
So it's not in your interest to 

451
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:21,000
permanently marginalize yourself
and to you believe, and I 

452
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,130
believe you believe in the unity
of India, your sense of 

453
00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:27,450
nationalism. 
While we may disagree on some 

454
00:24:27,450 --> 00:24:31,410
specifics, but we all want one 
thing and if BJP is genuinely 

455
00:24:31,410 --> 00:24:34,410
patriotic, then BJP must want 
unity of India. 

456
00:24:35,490 --> 00:24:39,890
So my advice to them would be in
their interest not to make it a 

457
00:24:39,890 --> 00:24:44,410
polarizing issue and to meet the
the concerns of the people who 

458
00:24:44,410 --> 00:24:48,530
are worried about what might 
happen halfway and reduce the 

459
00:24:48,530 --> 00:24:57,290
temperature. 
Today's episode was produced by 

460
00:24:57,290 --> 00:25:01,210
Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. 
For a daily spotlight on people,

461
00:25:01,250 --> 00:25:04,010
ideas and stories that matter, 
subscribe to us. 

462
00:25:04,330 --> 00:25:08,810
We are available on TOI, 
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463
00:25:08,970 --> 00:25:10,770
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