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From India's largest newsroom, 
I'm Arun George and this is the 

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Times of India podcast. 
What is your typical stem thing?

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Like what do you do playing with
nails and playing with my 

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eyebrows? 
I do this. 

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I clench my palms. 
That's Alab Debur and a guest in

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a video talking about stems. 
For many, it's an unfamiliar 

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term. 
Stems are self stimulating 

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methods that could be done for 
enjoyment or visual stimulation,

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or even as a method to deal with
anxiety in a distressing 

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environment. 
It's a topic that features 

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frequently in the videos made by
Alab and his partner Aditi 

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Gangrade on their YouTube 
channel called Much Much Media. 

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Their videos chronicle the lives
of people who are neurodivergent

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and how they deal with the 
world. 

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And unlike popular culture, 
which often only highlights how 

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a neurodivergent person's 
behavior is different, these 

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videos take a more empathetic 
look and give neurotypical 

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people some much needed insight 
into the lives of neurodivergent

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individuals and their passions. 
Neurodivergent, at its heart, is

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a term used for people who 
interact and experience the 

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world differently than others. 
The term is used in the context 

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of the autism spectrum and other
neurological conditions like 

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ADHD and some learning 
disabilities. 

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And as Alap also explains in 
today's episode, because it's a 

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spectrum, No2 neurodivergent 
people present the same way. 

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While the depiction of autism in
popular culture often focuses on

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their inability to deal with the
world, there's now a concerted 

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push to show what people on the 
spectrum can do as well. 

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Well known public figures like 
actor Anthony Hopkins, 

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billionaire Elon Musk and singer
Sia are among those who've said 

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that they are on the spectrum 
and have spoken about how it has

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influenced their lives and work.
Alab Debur worked in multiple 

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media houses before Co founding 
much much media. 

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His starting the channel was 
also fueled by the fact that he 

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was around 30 when he found out 
that he was autistic. 

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In today's episode he talks with
me about how the realization 

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changed his life and what are 
the biggest learnings from 

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chronicling the lives of 
neurodivergent people across the

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country. 
To start with, Alab says that he

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grew up being called an 
introvert, given his behavior 

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around people. 
So I've been a media 

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professional all my life and 
what that entails is. 

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A lot of socializing, you know, 
meeting people, especially in 

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the jobs that I have done, which
is in the music industry, in 

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production, it entails a lot of 
meeting people. 

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It entails, you know, going out 
and hanging out with them, going

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to parties. 
Sometimes it also entail public 

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speaking and meeting new people,
lots of strangers. 

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And these things I've always 
been a little uncomfortable with

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and I I've always ascribed my 
discomfort with these things to 

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being socially awkward. 
And it's it's always been 

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something that I just just, you 
know, put away and said each 

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alone. 
I'm an introvert. 

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And therefore, I'm, I'm asocial.
And therefore, you know, these 

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things come to me with great 
difficulty growing up in India. 

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There is also so little 
vocabulary around any of these 

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things. 
There's literally nothing. 

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You're not taught any of these 
things in school. 

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Of course, you don't have 
conversations around any of 

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these subjects with your 
parents, with your peers. 

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So everything is just either a 
re introvert hair, yato ye or 

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extra social hair, or else he's 
just, you know, likes to be 

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aloof and by himself. 
In 2019, I chose to go in for 

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therapy after some years of 
anxiety, chronic anxiety rising 

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from jobs, rising from things 
happening in my personal life, 

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etcetera. 
During therapy, I Love says 

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there was no mention of 
neurodivergent. 

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It was during the lockdown of 
20/20, which was imposed to stop

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the spread of COVID-19, that he 
began to explore the topic of 

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neurodivergence through various 
books and videos. 

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These, he says, opened his eyes 
to live the experiences of 

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others, which in turn resulted 
in him looking at his own 

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experiences more closely. 
I think as men we don't really 

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introspect much and. 
And try to really figure out 

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what it is that we are feeling. 
A lot of times we just tend to 

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put it away thinking, you know, 
that's that's not where your 

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mind is supposed to go. 
Those topics are not worth 

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thinking about or that if you 
are thinking about those things,

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then you know your mind is going
into places that it shouldn't be

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going into. 
You're not focusing on work, 

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etcetera, etcetera. 
But it was conversations that I 

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had with these people and books 
that I read and documentaries 

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that I saw that actually gave me
the vocabulary. 

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To talk about things that that 
we're always missing from my 

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dictionary. 
Things like sensory 

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sensitivities, meltdowns and 
shutdowns, masking, sensory 

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overload, executive dysfunction.
These were these were words. 

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Phrases that I had never known 
about, but words and phrases 

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that I instantly related to on a
very personal level whenever I 

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came back from parties, whenever
I did a lot of socializing. 

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Invariably there would be either
a shutdown or a meltdown the 

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next day. 
Which would pretty much mean I 

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couldn't do anything essentially
for the entire day, and I had to

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pretty much take the entire day 
off and just focus on myself, 

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focus on pulling myself back 
together. 

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And it still happens. 
It happens to date. 

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So I found out that yes, it was 
introversion in a lot of cases, 

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but also so much deeper than 
that, so much more than that, 

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with so many more associated 
angles that had never opened up 

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to me before then, Alap says. 
It was around 2022 that a lot 

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more conversations started 
happening online about being 

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assessed as autistic as an 
adult. 

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People diagnosed as 
neurodivergent later in life was

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speaking about their own 
experiences, and Alap says one 

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of the persons he was in touch 
with suggested getting assessed 

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to check if he was autistic. 
I went in with a completely 

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blank mind. 
I went in like expecting to have

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any any outcome either either a 
positive outcome or a negative 

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outcome. 
And I just kept telling myself 

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that I needed to be as as honest
as possible about all my lived 

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experiences, about everything 
that I had been through, which 

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would kind of be like therapy. 
And it was. 

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The assessment was exactly like 
therapy, where over a period of 

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about four months, somewhere 
about 7 to 8 sessions, I had to 

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speak about everything that I 
had been through, you know, 

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right from childhood up until 
present day, including my 

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college life, my. 
School life, my office life, my 

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work life, etcetera. 
And sure enough, four months 

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later I came out with a 
diagnosis of autism at 33. 

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It was shocking, to say the 
least, but it also explained 

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just so much about my past 
experiences, about everything 

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that I had been through, that it
kind of also came as a relief. 

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There is a lot of stigma still 
associated with it, right? 

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How did that but change the way 
you lived? 

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As in, was it something that 
caused you to change what you 

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were doing in any way? 
You know, there is stigma. 

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There has always been a lot of 
stigma around neurodivergence. 

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But as soon as I got my 
diagnosis, one of the first 

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things that my wife and I, we 
both did was to meet more people

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who shared the same lived 
experiences as us. 

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Because the first thing that 
happens when you start 

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identifying and you start 
becoming part of a community is 

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that you feel less alone. 
And when you feel less alone, 

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whatever stigma there is, at 
least the effects of that stigma

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don't affect you as much as they
would without any kind of 

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support network. 
We were actually quite fortunate

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to find a. 
A growing community of 

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neurodivergence from India. 
Young people as us who had been 

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diagnosed only in the past two 
or three years, and we were 

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starting to now band up together
through communities on LinkedIn,

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on Instagram, WhatsApp, 
etcetera. 

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So we started a page called Much
Much Spectrum a couple of months

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after my diagnosis. 
And that's how a lot of people 

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met us. 
That's how a lot of people 

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connected to us. 
And we started having open 

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conversations about the stigma 
that existed also. 

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What happens when you start 
having open conversations about 

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stigma is that people start 
realizing that what they felt 

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all along, how they have 
considered neurodivergence all 

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along, doesn't compute somehow 
because they see the kind of 

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diversity that exists on the 
spectrum. 

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They see the different lived 
experiences of people. 

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And they start to have less of a
monolithic kind of a view of 

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neurodivergence and a more 
nuanced outlook of 

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neurodivergence. 
And so they start to see that 

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autism is not typically what 
they had thought it was. 

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ADHD is not typically what they 
had thought it was. 

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And a lot more people have these
conditions than you see. 

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When you hear someone talk about
their life experience, you sort 

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of relate to that. 
And then you have more empathy. 

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Essentially, Alab says, there's 
a vocabulary of neurodivergence 

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that doesn't feature enough in 
everyday usage. 

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He says this is despite the fact
that neurotypical people may 

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have similar experiences. 
He explains why it helps to make

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terms associated with 
neurodivergence more widely 

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used. 
The. 

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Vocabulary is there, but I would
say that it's not part of 

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everyday balance. 
Sensory sensitivities, for 

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example. 
How often do you really get to 

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hear about those things? 
There are lots of people who. 

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Can't stand the can't stand loud
sounds. 

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There are lots of people who 
cannot see very bright, flashy 

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lights, but those things are 
never typically ascribed to 

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being sensitively sensitive 
words like Meltdown. 

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There's words like shutdowns. 
Burnouts are, thankfully, things

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that have recently come into 
everyday parlance because of the

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whole mental health 
conversation. 

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But before that, you didn't know
what burnouts were either. 

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You know, on days that you just 
couldn't function, you were just

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said to be having bad days or a 
day where you weren't feeling 

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yourself. 
And the vocabulary really, 

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really helps because you know 
exactly what it is that you're 

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going through. 
There is such a stark difference

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between having a shutdown and a 
meltdown that now when I tell my

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wife OK, I'm in shutdown, she 
knows how to accommodate me 

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versus when I'm in meltdown 
where she knows exactly what to 

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do. 
And these things really help 

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because they help me come out of
these situations faster and 

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better and feeling more careful.
So having vocabularies is 

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important than it has always 
been there. 

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It's just that it's never been 
part of everyday parlance, which

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now with this conversation is 
coming more and more to the 

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fore. 
I was going through some of the 

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videos you have done, and that 
for me was also a striking thing

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because like you said, that you 
were an introvert, and that's 

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believed to be the sort of 
typical neurodivergent person, 

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somebody who cannot deal with a 
lot of people, and yet you'll 

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have documented people who 
actually love being with other 

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people and yet are 
neurodivergent. 

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Like you said, it's not 
monolithic. 

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Could you just talk about that? 
What is the common perception of

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being neurodivergent and what 
you've seen in all this time? 

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I would say that people don't 
really understand what autism or

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or neurodivergences overall 
really are. 

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Honestly, each each type of 
neurodivergence exists on a 

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separate spectrum of its own, 
and it's it's these conditions 

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are very, very dynamic. 
You would be surprised that even

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a lot of autistics don't relate 
to each other. 

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With a lot of our challenges, 
strengths and presentations, we 

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have groups on which we have 
conversations all day about the 

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things that happened to us and 
the things that we go through. 

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In a lot of cases, people, you 
know, reply to messages saying, 

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Oh my God, the same thing 
happens to me. 

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But strangely enough, a lot of 
people also reply to those 

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things and they'll say, yeah, I 
don't relate to that at all. 

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This doesn't happen to me. 
I'm the exact opposite. 

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And they are still as autistic, 
you know, as as the other 

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person. 
So some of us are very social, 

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some of us aren't. 
Some of us are sensory seekers, 

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some avoided. 
There are autistics who are 

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hyper social also. 
I've met a lot of them and their

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their presentations are very 
different from some of us who 

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are not as social. 
So some avoid sensory seeking. 

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Also some need way more frequent
regulation breaks, some don't. 

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I would say what it essentially 
is is a processing difference 

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and a difference of expression. 
So these two things are pretty 

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much, I would say standard maybe
might be wrong, but that's what 

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00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,720
I've noticed in the time that I 
have met people from within our 

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community. 
A lot of people also tend to 

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00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,720
think that it's a flat spectrum 
from severe to mild. 

231
00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:37,160
Like it's just one bar eight 
side by severe, like high excite

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00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,680
by mildly high. 
But it's actually more of a 

233
00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:42,800
flywheel, you know with with 
various strengths plotted on 

234
00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:47,200
that ranging all the way from 
less intense to way more intense

235
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,640
and. 
The intensity of these 

236
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,960
presentations, the intensity of 
these conditions, is also very 

237
00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,040
dynamic and might differ from 
place to place, situation to 

238
00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,880
situation in a lot of cases. 
And autistic themselves might 

239
00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,240
not be able to tell you why 
they're not able to do something

240
00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,240
that they otherwise do so well 
in a certain situation, or why 

241
00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,840
they could do something so well 
today that they otherwise never 

242
00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,320
really could. 
So it's it sometimes really 

243
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,600
surprises you. 
Also why on some days you're 

244
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,520
able to speak so well, on some 
days you want some days you do 

245
00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:21,720
something really badly that 
otherwise you know you're very 

246
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:23,560
good at, so you really can't 
tell. 

247
00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:26,960
Our labs is the biggest lesson 
for them since starting much 

248
00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,160
much media is that No2 
neurodivergent people present 

249
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,440
the same way and differ based on
various factors. 

250
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,000
Our biggest learning, as much, 
much media, has pretty much been

251
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,840
that the most. 
Effective kind of knowledge 

252
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,320
comes from listening to the 
person who's lived with 

253
00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,080
something that you possibly 
might have no idea about. 

254
00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,760
And that is how we know that 
autism presents differently 

255
00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,040
among men and among women and 
non binary folks. 

256
00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,000
That there is a class angle, 
that there's a caste angle to 

257
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:56,600
it. 
That there's a religion angle to

258
00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,440
it, that people across different
intersections. 

259
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,440
Have a very, very different 
experience of their 

260
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:06,920
neurodivergence. 
They present differently and 

261
00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,840
their challenges and strengths 
exist across the spectrum that 

262
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,720
that you literally cannot know 
about until you talk to them. 

263
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,160
And no two people are the same. 
Essentially, that is the biggest

264
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:20,120
learning that we've had. 
Our lab says that discovering 

265
00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,840
that you're autistic in your 30s
also means that you have to deal

266
00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,280
with the claim that you're not 
as autistic. 

267
00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,240
As someone who was diagnosed 
much earlier in life, he 

268
00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,320
explains why not fitting in the 
conventional perception of 

269
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,000
autism or other forms of 
neurodivergence doesn't mean 

270
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,360
that people's challenges are any
less. 

271
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:40,680
And that's something he's hoping
to address with the videos they 

272
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,720
make at much, much Media. 
A lot of people also say that 

273
00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:47,880
your. 
Challenges are not as severe or 

274
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,200
you know, that you're not as 
autistic as someone who might be

275
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:52,680
diagnosed way earlier in their 
life. 

276
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,360
So this is something that that 
my wife and I and A lot of 

277
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,320
people from within the late 
diagnosed community have had to 

278
00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,160
face, which is people coming up 
to us and saying, yeah, but 

279
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,680
you're not as autistic as, you 
know, like a person who was 

280
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:07,720
diagnosed when they were three 
years old, I would say. 

281
00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:09,840
But that's one of the biggest 
misconceptions that's out there 

282
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,000
because. 
What that directly relates to is

283
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,880
the kind of masking that we do. 
So masking is another big thing 

284
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,800
among autistic individuals. 
I wouldn't say it's just the 

285
00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,760
neuro divergent thing. 
Neurotypical people's also mask,

286
00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,560
but with neuro divergent people 
their masking is is so 

287
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:29,240
protracted and it's so, so much 
more intense that it actually 

288
00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:33,080
has bad mental health outcomes. 
The masking sort of has us, you 

289
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,240
know, go under the radar or slip
through the cracks, you know, 

290
00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,480
when it comes to getting a 
diagnosis earlier on in our 

291
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,520
lives. 
And that unfortunately also 

292
00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,560
makes it seem like our 
challenges are not as severe as 

293
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:48,960
some other people might be, 
which is something that we're 

294
00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:52,000
also trying to very actively 
talk about and trying to 

295
00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,920
actively spread information 
about. 

296
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,560
The just because we don't match 
the classic image of autism 

297
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,760
doesn't mean that our challenges
are not as valid or as intense. 

298
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,040
This is that ours are different,
and what we're trying to really 

299
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,160
educate the world about is. 
Everyone has challenges. 

300
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,120
Some challenges are visible, 
some aren't. 

301
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,720
But you know you need to come 
from a place of empathy when 

302
00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:16,800
speaking to someone and 
realizing that their challenges 

303
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,440
might not be visible, but they 
might be just as valid and just 

304
00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:23,800
as intense as someone else's. 
What people I believe overall 

305
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:25,840
aren't very used to is the 
concept of invisible 

306
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,120
disabilities, That people exist 
whose disabilities are not 

307
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,600
visible, whose challenges you 
cannot really see. 

308
00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:41,120
And to address this, I I really 
feel we need more disability 

309
00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,520
education built into a 
curriculum from a young age. 

310
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,000
I think that is the that is the 
way that this will change. 

311
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,200
We're back in conversation with 
Alab debur of much, much media. 

312
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,480
Like he said earlier, Alab 
discovered he was autistic in 

313
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,960
his 30s, and that in turn opened
his eyes as to why he reacted in

314
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:02,000
certain ways to certain events. 
However, like he pointed out, 

315
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,760
the stigma is very much there 
and not surprisingly, a lot of 

316
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,240
it has to do with popular 
culture. 

317
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,040
Not only infantilizes, but also 
dehumanizes its autistic 

318
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:14,480
protagonist. 
That's one of the videos hosted 

319
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,440
by Aditi Gangradi on the Much 
Much Media channel about a 

320
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,839
recently released film. 
Our lab says that 

321
00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:23,119
neurodivergent, like other 
disabilities, is often played 

322
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,040
for laughs in popular cinema, 
which in turn effects how people

323
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,000
deal with neurodivergent people 
when they actually meet them. 

324
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,440
Hollywood is just part over a 
slightly over 100 years, maybe 

325
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,480
100 years old around around that
mark. 

326
00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,960
And And what films come to mind 
when you mention disability or 

327
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,080
narrow Divergent? 
Maybe three or four films, 

328
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:46,280
right? 
That is a mean part comes to 

329
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,920
everyone's mind. 
Margarita with a straw will 

330
00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:50,280
probably come to everyone's 
mind. 

331
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,760
And maybe then there's Barfi and
a couple of others, right? 

332
00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,000
You can count them on your 
fingers about 10, maybe 20 films

333
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:01,440
right in all of history. 
So the number there itself tells

334
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:05,400
you just how little this entire 
conversation has been explored. 

335
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,440
In a lot of cases they will be 
disabled characters, they will 

336
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,480
be clearly narrow, divergent 
characters, but they're the 

337
00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,600
lowest hanging fruit for any 
kind of comedy. 

338
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,000
One of the fall back things for 
screenwriters, at least in the 

339
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,000
past, used to be Kichelloco and 
Euro Divergent. 

340
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,320
Yeah, disabled character Kodalo 
and everyone is going to laugh. 

341
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:25,320
This has happened with, you 
know, Tushar Kapoor, who had a 

342
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:28,760
speech disfluency in golmaal and
everyone laughs at him. 

343
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:32,640
So this is typically how 
neurodivergence and disability 

344
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,080
have been represented in 
Bollywood for a very, very long 

345
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:40,360
time, and that has caused a lot 
of damage to the perception of 

346
00:18:40,360 --> 00:18:44,280
neurodivergent and disabled 
people overall, Alab says. 

347
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,840
Another major problem is that 
there's another form of 

348
00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,480
representation of 
neurodivergence and disability, 

349
00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,800
which is portraying individuals 
as characters to elicit sympathy

350
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,560
or to make them inspirational. 
The strange part is, even if 

351
00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,280
there is neurodivergent or 
disabled representation, if it's

352
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,560
not from the make fun of them 
angle, it's from the pity or the

353
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:09,200
sympathy angle. 
So we need a lot less of what is

354
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:11,960
is called abroad. 
The inspiration upon narrative, 

355
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,880
you know, which is disabled and 
neurodivergent people exist to 

356
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,600
sort of inspire other people. 
That is not actually the purpose

357
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,240
at all because that video that 
is quite reductive that kind of 

358
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,280
a portrayal. 
So we need way more known 

359
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:30,160
portrayals of neurodivergent and
disabled lives and just in 

360
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,720
general more stories featuring 
us. 

361
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,240
So there's two types of 
inclusion. 

362
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,200
One is casual, where the focus 
is not. 

363
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,720
Really, on the disability, But 
the disabled person just happens

364
00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,560
to be part of the narrative. 
So we need a lot more of that as

365
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:44,720
well. 
Where if you have, say, four 

366
00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,200
friends as part of a story, one 
of those friends just happens to

367
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:49,960
be disabled. 
And the focus is not on the 

368
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,240
disability or not constantly on 
the fact that, you know, I have 

369
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,800
a friend with a disability or 
anything of that sort. 

370
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,800
It just so happens that the 
person is disabled. 

371
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,040
You know, community I think is a
good example of this, where 

372
00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,760
there's a wheelchair user and 
the focus is never on the fact 

373
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,280
that they are a wheelchair user 
or that they're different from 

374
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,080
the rest of the college. 
In fact, our lab says they may 

375
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,840
be characters that we're already
seeing in popular culture who 

376
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,840
may be neurodivergent, but it's 
never acknowledged. 

377
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:21,200
Pretty much every Bollywood film
by the hero cannot do well in 

378
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,240
school. 
But does well in pretty much 

379
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,440
every other aspect of his life. 
Could be ADHD, very honestly, 

380
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,200
because that is one of the most 
classic presentations of ADHD is

381
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,840
where you sit in a classroom 
where you're very under 

382
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,600
stimulated. 
You can barely even pay 

383
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,280
attention to what the teacher is
saying, and your mind is always 

384
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,960
rushing for the first thing that
stimulates your mind more and 

385
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,080
which is why you cannot pay 
attention in class and therefore

386
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:45,960
don't get high marks or 
whatever. 

387
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,720
And then because of that, 
everyone considers you a weak 

388
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,440
student. 
But then you pretty much do well

389
00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:52,920
in every other aspect of your 
life. 

390
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:54,640
You know you're good enough. 
So that classic. 

391
00:20:54,960 --> 00:21:01,480
Added, you know, very comes over
here, but that is a classic ADHD

392
00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:03,800
thing. 
I mean that's not a diagnosis of

393
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:05,720
any kind, but it could be an 
ADHD thing. 

394
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:09,120
Lots of characters that you see 
could potentially be ADHD, could

395
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:13,720
have some other kind of like 
Michael Scott for example, bad 

396
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,040
example, but Michael Scott from 
the office seems dyslexic, seems

397
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,040
to have ADHD. 
There's that for sure. 

398
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,080
But then again, it's never 
addressed really in the series 

399
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,000
or anything of that sort. 
Unlike his own experience, where

400
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,320
his first therapist never been 
considered neurodivergent, Alap 

401
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,840
says the number of therapists 
who acknowledge it is on the 

402
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,440
rise in India. 
But not surprisingly, things 

403
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,240
could be better. 
We asked Alap whether he has a 

404
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,920
lot of people asking him about 
whether they should get assessed

405
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:43,200
and how does he advise them. 
One of the first things that 

406
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:48,000
we've noticed is is that people 
don't don't know about. 

407
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:52,480
Hero Divergent, We get DMS on on
an almost everyday basis with 

408
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:56,000
people telling us I go through 
the exact same things that you 

409
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,280
do. 
Do you think I might be Neuro 

410
00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,680
Divergent? 
And the one thing that we end up

411
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,280
telling them is, look, we're not
experts. 

412
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,400
We are people who have who have 
been through or or who have 

413
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:06,360
lived experience of Neuro 
Divergent. 

414
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,760
We are experts in our own lives,
yes, but we are not experts on 

415
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,960
your life. 
Getting an assessment is one of 

416
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,600
the best ways to. 
Figure out whether you are neuro

417
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,000
divergent or not. 
The number of assessors also now

418
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,880
is steadily increasing. 
There's many in India already. 

419
00:22:24,360 --> 00:22:28,080
These assessments happen online,
so access to these assessments 

420
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:32,120
have become easier. 
They are cheaper in India than 

421
00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:33,880
they are pretty much anywhere 
around the world. 

422
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,400
Honestly, it it's tough to give 
advice because everyone's case 

423
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,200
is so different. 
Everyone's situation is so 

424
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:40,880
different. 
So the best that you can do is 

425
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,360
just hear them out. 
And then maybe guide them to a 

426
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,080
neuro informed therapist. 
Guide them to someone who will 

427
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:51,920
understand neuro divergent. 
We will approach this subject 

428
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:56,760
not with the lens of pathology, 
but with the lens of empathy and

429
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:58,720
understanding, and guide them in
the right ways. 

430
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,240
I think that's that's about the 
best advice that we can give to 

431
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,760
anyone, so how could things be 
better? 

432
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,280
Anab says. 
All that's really expected from 

433
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,880
neurotypical people is 
understanding empathy and 

434
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,080
agency. 
You know, definitely more 

435
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,200
empathy and more understanding. 
More coming from a space of OK, 

436
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,920
let me get to understand, let me
get to learn more from this 

437
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,560
person as opposed to coming from
a viewpoint of OK, just because 

438
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:27,600
this person is neuro divergent 
or disabled, automatically I 

439
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,400
have a higher standing in life, 
or I know better than them, or 

440
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,640
more than them. 
Coming in from a position where 

441
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,080
you are eager to know more about
them, where you're curious to 

442
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,360
know about their life experience
and to see what you can learn 

443
00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:40,480
from them. 
Way less of the whole fixing 

444
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,360
narrative. 
Deframing our ideas of what 

445
00:23:43,360 --> 00:23:47,040
neuro Divergent is and not 
thinking of neuro divergent and 

446
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,920
disabled people is broken. 
One of the most important things

447
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,000
is to have more knowledge 
dissemination at at the school 

448
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,120
level. 
Way more schools addressing, you

449
00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:58,480
know, divergent children. 
Way more schools accepting neuro

450
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,960
divergent and disabled children 
and letting them assimilate with

451
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,640
peers. 
That empathy is built at a very 

452
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,200
young age itself. 
So that. 

453
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,400
When you're older, having a 
disabled or a neuro divergent 

454
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,400
person around you doesn't feel 
like a very alien experience. 

455
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,200
It just feels like something 
you've grown up with in general.

456
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,200
Way more conversations around 
this on on social media, among 

457
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,680
friends, just among in the 
movies and and everywhere. 

458
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,280
Essentially just having more 
conversations about disability 

459
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,640
and neuro Divergent and getting 
to know more about the culture. 

460
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,800
Getting to know more about these
conditions, about the strengths,

461
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,280
challenges, how to assimilate us
at work, how to provide 

462
00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,960
accommodations. 
How to let us have agency in our

463
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,080
lives, which is essentially how 
to let us make our own 

464
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:48,320
decisions, and just how to make 
accommodations, agency and 

465
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,360
accessibility like a core 
component of every decision that

466
00:24:54,440 --> 00:25:03,640
is being made. 
Today's episode was produced by 

467
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,560
Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. 
For a daily spotlight on people,

468
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,360
ideas and stories that matter, 
subscribe to us. 

469
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:15,120
We're available on TOI plus 
Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts,

470
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,120
and all other platforms of your 
choice. 

471
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:22,400
For any new steps, e-mail us at 
TOI Podcast at Timesinternet dot

472
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:22,680
in.