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From India's largest Newsroom. 
I'm Warren Gorge. 

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And this is the times of India 
podcast. 

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The National Council for 
educational research and 

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training has been in headlines 
since it emerged, that multiple 

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permanent changes had been made 
in textbooks, that will be 

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issued this year. 
The modifications in a history 

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chapter about Mahatma Gandhi's, 
assassination, sparked outrage, 

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after B, about assassin. 
Nathuram godse, and the 

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rashtriya swayamsevak sangh RSS 
were cut out. 

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However, it's not just history, 
where the changes have been 

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made. 
Reports have pointed out that 

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reference has to the 2002 
Gujarat riots, have vanished 

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from the textbooks. 
One report says, topics. 

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Like police atrocities and air 
pollution have also been erased 

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from a textbook, the director of
the ncert Denisa clanny meant in

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that. 
All the cuts made in the 

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textbooks were done, only to 
reduce the burden on students, 

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it is not change in curriculum 
or syllabus. 

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It was changed in books, only in
order to reduce the content. 

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Politicians from various 
opposition parties have largely 

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focused on the changes in the 
history textbooks that they say 

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a politically biased. 
However, a group of 200 experts,

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which includes historians 
issued, a statement criticizing 

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the changes that have been made 
in all the textbooks, one of the

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signatories to the letter is 
Professor, Anita rampal. 

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She was the dean of the faculty 
of Education, Delhi, University,

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and had worked on the creation 
of school textbooks. 

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In today's episode, we're 
talking with Professor ample 

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about the impact of the these 
changes. 

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She also explains how the 
textbook changes proposed 

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changes in schools curriculums 
and other factors are changing 

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public education in India. 
Mr. Humble to start with. 

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Could you talk about these ncert
textbooks? 

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How much do they influence? 
Education in India and would say

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States like say a Kerala which 
has objected to changes in 

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history textbooks, would they be
able to change their textbooks 

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in order to sort of bypass 
changes that are made in ncert 

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textbooks? 
Yes, you are still an important 

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question because Kerala right 
now is debating on these issues 

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and I happen to be on a core 
committee there on on the 

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curriculum revision. 
So many states use the higher 

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secondary 11th 12th, textbooks 
from ncert. 

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Even the other textbooks, ncert 
gives them a camera-ready copy 

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and states can have an mou and 
include some chapters on their 

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own and use what PN C RT is 
made. 

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So you know for many years this 
has been Been happening. 

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But yes, 11:12 is an issue 
because you can't suddenly 

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produce these books now. 
So you know, they were they 

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obviously don't want to use the 
deleted versions. 

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And so now, they will have to, 
they have said, I think the 

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minister is given the statement 
that they be using the earlier 

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version, the unedited version as
they were. 

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So, how would that work? 
Because if ncert stops a 

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publishing, those old textbooks,
you know, wouldn't it in effect 

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be really Difficult to then 
continue would then say states 

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have to bring out their own 
versions of text books based on 

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ncert textbooks, if they want to
keep that going States. 

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Again, have that freedom to do 
that. 

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The constitution allows in fact,
a tell states that they make 

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their own curriculum and they 
choose whether they want to use 

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these in Toto or they want to 
use them and add some component 

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of their own, you know, which 
they've been doing even in the 

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other ninth tenth or other 
classes. 

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So that is up to To the states. 
Obviously, you can't produce 

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11th, 12th textbooks with the 
kind with, with a group and with

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the expertise suddenly within 
six months. 

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So, obviously States will have 
to take this decision. 

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Those that don't want, the 
edited version will have to see 

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how they can legally work on on 
using the earlier version 

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without having to produce 
completely new ones, what will 

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be the understanding and what 
they communicate to ncert. 

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But Professor, Anita, a points 
out that apart from the time 

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that it takes for states to 
bring out new textbooks. 

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There's another issue that they 
would need to deal with the 

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competitive exams. 
That students are required to 

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write after class 12, and if the
exams are based on the mat in 

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the ncert textbooks, they can't 
be ignored. 

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What worry States is even 
earlier that cbse books were 

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becoming the kind of exit level 
text for school and the entry 

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level takes for admission into 
various kinds of tests or even 

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in the is exam or something like
that. 

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Now, a very concerted lie, when 
the sea Wheatie, the common 

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Entrance Test, or the need for 
these kinds of tests which the 

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center is pushing. 
In terms of a ation of Entrance 

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Test that is questionable 
because that they clearly saying

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is going to be based only on CBS
t. 

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Professor ample says that under 
existing guiding principles is 

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no set period after which 
textbooks need to be revised. 

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There's also no real requirement
for revisions but in 2020, when 

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the pandemic hit schools were 
shot courses went online. 

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That's when a process of 
rationalization was carried out 

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in ncert textbooks under this 
process, certain portions of the

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textbook would be cut out of the
syllabus so that students didn't

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have to study it for exams. 
Professor a is that even when 

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cutting things out of a 
syllabus, it needs to be done 

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carefully. 
She says, the latest revisions 

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are an extension of a process 
that started during the 

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pandemic. 
Normally there are no revisions 

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which are done in this way, 
unless there is something like 

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they did the covid revision 
so-called covid because they use

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the covid to again, delete the 
same kind of things, and people 

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had raised this question. 
But that was, again, it was a 

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list given out. 
It was kind of booklets given 

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out and the books remain the 
same as they were. 

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But now they have deleted that 
in the book so that they made 

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that into a permanent thing 
within covid. 

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In any case, many, These are 
disrupted and I remember the 

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first time that the media had 
asked me, I said you don't do 

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even a revision for an emergency
like covid. 

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You don't do this way. 
There is a certain sequence. 

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You have to understand because 
each concept each theme. 

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Each topic Falls within a 
pattern of progression of how 

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ideas are going to be developed.
How students understand this is 

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not a disciplinary exercise that
as a discipline. 

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I think this comes after this, 
you know, there is no 

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chronology. 
Only coming from the And it has 

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to follow the sequence and the 
pattern and the depth and 

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complexity and the abstract nest
of a certain concept and how one

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Builds on the other or how 
students, at what age with what 

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connections in their lives. 
Do they actually understand 

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these so that is how technically
it should be done. 

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You can't pick up something 
threw it out, we have been 

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following in the sense 
critiquing writing about ncert. 

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That's our work. 
That's my work. 

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I've been working with text 
Books in different states. 

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That's something we do when I 
teach this, I also teach 

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curriculum studies but the way 
this was done. 

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Well it's completely devoid of 
any such consideration or any 

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such discussion. 
So then with the latest changes 

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in the ncert takes history 
textbooks, particularly you are 

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among a group of over 200 
experts who've signed on a 

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letter, objecting to the changes
and deletions made in the 

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upcoming editions. 
Could you explain the reason for

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this? 
Letter. 

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The reason why is because this 
was being done just without any 

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consultation. 
And many of the people who 

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signed it including me, we are 
part of the syllabus committees 

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a textbook development teams. 
The advisors chairpersons. 

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So, you know, we've been 
involved in this exercise and 

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there's been absolutely no 
consultation or discussion. 

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Plus it seems to be extremely 
motivated in a very deliberate 

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selection is being made or what 
is being deleted. 

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And that is why Being, that's 
extremely worrying. 

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A contentious cut is the fact 
that the 2002 Gujarat riots, 

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which took place. 
While Narendra Modi was chief. 

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Minister are now alledgedly 
completely absent in all 

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textbooks. 
Professor ample explains, the 

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logic of the inclusion of the 
riots that resulted in the 

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deaths of over 1,000 people in 
textbooks for us. 

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It was important because For the
First Time, very sensitive, 

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political issues, also dealing 
with the role of parties and way

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they were and socio-cultural 
Context in which say, a riot 

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happens. 
Now, right? 

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Is a very sensitive issue. 
How do you talk about? 

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You need us. 
Don't give a year in. 

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Dayton. 
See so many people died. 

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How do you build on the 
understanding of the tensions 

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that happen. 
So this was done in one 

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political science, textbook. 
Last well we're at the regional 

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level, you're also looking at 
the Gujarat Riot and in another 

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chapter, you're looking at the 
deli rides, the anti say crimes,

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both are there and very 
consciously done because And I 

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think that, you know, they were 
the political science group also

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had just a kind of waiting 
meeting to get people to see 

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that even in the party. 
Some the I remember the 

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education Minister I just seen 
this when the draft was ready 

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and said nothing which was very 
important for the kind of 

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academic confidence and freedom.
That you feel. 

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You have when you're designing 
curricula because it's the 

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ruling party and you're talking 
everything you're talking about 

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what Justice anonymity is said. 
You're You about an apology that

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the Prime Minister Manmohan 
Singh, later gave, you're doing 

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all that and that is what we 
thought was what is an honest 

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way of dealing with something as
dramatic as that and similarly 

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with the right. 
Right. 

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But this early purges any 
mention of the Gujarat, right? 

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Not just this this chapter to 
pay whatever it is an earlier 

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chapter Sociology Chapter in 
class 11. 

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So there is no mention of a 
guitar, right? 

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But the entire Delhi anti-sikh 
riots is there as it is. 

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So isn't this motivated? 
What more could be motivated? 

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Like the whole discussion about 
gun. 

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He is Assassin. 
This is come into media, what 

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you write, why they were trying 
to write. 

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And this is not, you know, this 
is a known fact of why Gandhi 

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was being targeted. 
So what is the history of that? 

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And to say that he is insistence
on hindu-muslim Unity over 

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something that was oh, King 
people so how can you just take?

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That sentence and say not to run
God, say kill him. 

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Finished, is that you the way 
you write a textbook? 

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In any case, as I'm saying, 
these are issues, which are 

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traumatic, which are difficult. 
Uncomfortable. 

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You have to trust young people 
to be able to speak openly in a 

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transparent manner, so that they
can then take up these issues. 

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Because students come with their
own socializations, they come 

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with their own back background, 
what they hear. 

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And, uh, Other sources. 
So when they get something, it's

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not a dollop of information that
is being thrown on them, they're

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being given to it. 
They're being given this 

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exposure so that they can 
question it also through their 

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frames of reference through 
their ways of how they have 

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looked at these things. 
So, giving one piece of 

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information and taking out the 
entire resul, they are true for 

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putting it there in the entire 
rational analysis, whatever 

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possible he's again is terrible 
pedagogy but it's also extremely

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Tree me motivated because you're
then distorting. 

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You coming with a divisive mind 
of what is allowed and what is 

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not allowed, what you think is 
palatable and what is not. 

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And also then the entire effort 
that was made was to try and 

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present. 
A more composite Nation were 

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more composite history in terms 
of how history has been. 

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And to get people to understand 
that democracy is not just going

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in casting a vote. 
By the focus has been the 

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history deletions another report
flag. 

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The fact that in other social 
science textbooks, you have 

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things which seemingly innocuous
like a water park in with 

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herbal, which is water. 
Starved, the effects of air 

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pollution and issues that 
seemingly aren't even very 

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objectively political maybe from
why do you believe we seen these

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changes in areas that one would 
not even see as political one. 

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I would like to say that 
education has to be looked at 

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politically in the sense 
whenever you questioning power. 

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It's not a party but you're 
questioning disadvantage. 

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You're questioning whose 
knowledge comes into a 

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curriculum and whose doesn't 
like political science for 

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instance, tries to give you an 
understanding in, which you go 

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beyond these partisan issues and
look deeply into the nature of 

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polity and the nature of power. 
So, as we keep saying that, Just

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what comes in a syllabus and 
whose life it shows. 

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And what does the textbook show 
you? 

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Not just the names and the 
visuals but whose lives, you 

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know? 
So it tells you there many lives

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it does not show, or it does not
represent or how they are 

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represented. 
So these questions are not just 

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in terms of colonial and 
Imperial and things like that. 

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But this these questions run 
through even today in fact, this

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entire chapter on environmental 
degradation is out. 

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So why are these Doubt. 
So anything that can question. 

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Government decisions are 
question, the role of the 

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government or question, what is 
happening in terms of 

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development, why are people in 
in the tribal districts? 

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So agitated and worried about 
mining, for instance, or why are

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00:14:03,300 --> 00:14:05,700
they protest movements that are 
happening there? 

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00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,400
So people's movements protest 
movements chipko? 

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You know, these may be things 
which look non-political but 

246
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they clearly political even if 
not Partisan immediately. 

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If you are looking at which 
party is involved to then 

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certain parties are going to 
feel more discomfort in this 

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because it relates to some of 
the other decisions they may be 

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taking after all you're 
preparing students to question. 

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I mean that is the whole nature 
in which your these particular 

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books were clearly that and 
that's why we see the 

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difference. 
These were books not made by 

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00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,100
ncert, but a whole lot of people
it was a whole, you know, 

255
00:14:43,100 --> 00:14:47,300
ecosystem of people were Working
in education across the country 

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00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,800
and that's why many of them, not
all. 

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00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,800
But many of the books came out 
in a very fine way, in terms of 

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00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,500
the pedagogies that we think 
should be there that we teach 

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00:14:57,500 --> 00:15:00,100
about. 
So, here was this pedagogy, 

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which was not just throwing out 
information at you, or not just 

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throwing out some questions at 
you and asking you to repeat the

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00:15:08,500 --> 00:15:12,800
answers, but it was based on 
social constructivism. 

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That's what we were supposed to 
work on. 

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00:15:15,100 --> 00:15:19,600
The basis of our approach was 
that any learner is constructing

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00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,200
knowledge and the knowledge is 
being constructed. 

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As a social process not alone. 
I is a learner, don't construct 

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00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,000
my knowledge alone. 
I constructed through a process 

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of doubting speaking. 
Not understanding aligning with 

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00:15:33,300 --> 00:15:37,000
people talking, and that is what
a classroom is supposed to be. 

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00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,800
But with this subject of 
rationalization, I just want to 

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stay with that, you know, like 
you said in covid there. 

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00:15:44,900 --> 00:15:48,600
There was some logic that. 
Okay, we cut this chapter out or

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00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:52,300
good doesn't appear in the exam 
or go to the sort of load on 

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00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:57,400
students has less. 
How do we know if we're 

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00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,900
overburdening students? 
Is there a sort of 

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00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:03,400
rationalization that, you know, 
sort of has been pending? 

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00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,200
You believe? 
It should have been done during 

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00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,200
the covid and immediately after 
the covid, we should have been 

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00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,700
ready, state twice as to how we 
going to restructure a given 

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00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:18,800
current Suppose we find that 
children in Primary School have 

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00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,200
lost out completely on two years
which they have and that's a 

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00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,300
crucial stage. 
When you're learning some 

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00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:27,600
things, then you have you have 
time up to classified. 

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00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,200
So within a given syllabus, you 
have time for that segment of 

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00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,700
the syllabus of how you 
restructure it. 

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00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:37,300
But it needs that thought it 
needs that thinking what is it 

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00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:43,000
that can be given up and in what
way, and then, what are the 

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00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,500
other Links of the Actions 
between these Concepts. 

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00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:48,700
How will they be made? 
So, you know, all that is to be 

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00:16:48,700 --> 00:16:51,800
done. 
Very carefully and your teachers

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00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,800
have to be oriented accordingly,
you can do it in six months. 

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00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,200
Like, now Bridge course, is 
notionally as a formality for 

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00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,500
three weeks, six weeks to months
that doesn't help. 

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00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:06,800
So what I'm saying is that 
restructuring we had been asking

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00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,700
for called for during the covid 
but we need that long-term 

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00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:13,599
vision of what kind of gaps 
there are. 

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00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:17,200
That didn't happen. 
But and the symptom of one 

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00:17:17,300 --> 00:17:20,900
argument, any critic of the 
Indian education system has is 

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00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:25,700
that we perhaps have too much 
for children, which in turn 

300
00:17:25,900 --> 00:17:31,100
encourages a certain form of 
learning, which in turn perhaps,

301
00:17:31,100 --> 00:17:34,800
negates any way what you're 
talking about, soup in that 

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00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:40,600
light then wouldn't sort of 
paring down of what or how much 

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00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,700
students have to study wooden. 
That anyway, kind of makes 

304
00:17:43,700 --> 00:17:44,800
sense. 
That's correct. 

305
00:17:44,900 --> 00:17:47,500
Regular development. 
It's not called rationalizing. 

306
00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:51,400
So whenever a curriculum is 
made, you have to keep asking 

307
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,400
these questions. 
Nothing is made for ever. 

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00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,100
We have done that in the past. 
We've done that in 2006 to 2008 

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00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:03,100
when these books came out. 
But again with the same kind of 

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00:18:03,100 --> 00:18:06,900
a large consultation of 
scholarship that works there. 

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00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:09,500
You can't hear someone say. 
I don't like this. 

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00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,300
I'm taking this from a 
discussion that I had yesterday.

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00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:14,700
When someone does it one thing 
that I did go. 

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00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:17,900
That he translated the ramen. 
That's all the one thing that 

315
00:18:17,900 --> 00:18:21,300
they find out what did good you 
really need scholarship, which 

316
00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:25,400
goes beyond what is there in the
text or in the syllabus? 

317
00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:28,700
You mentioned the national 
curriculum framework? 

318
00:18:28,700 --> 00:18:32,000
That is also submitting its 
reports as of now, it's made 

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00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:37,200
headlines for its changes and 
how it wants education to be 

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00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,600
done in school levels and 
multiple board exams possibly. 

321
00:18:41,500 --> 00:18:46,500
You spoke a bit about how it's 
an real scenario that we face in

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00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:50,500
the education system right now. 
But where does this push sort of

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00:18:50,508 --> 00:18:53,200
take it? 
According to you, I just look at

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00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,300
how it's saying in terms of 
specially the class 9 in 10 and 

325
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:02,000
11 and 12. 
It sounds very nice when we sing

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00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,000
that we should have many options
and we should be doing a very 

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00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,000
broader spectrum of things. 
It sounds good even today 

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00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,100
without looking at that, we have
a challenge of how you make an 

329
00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:14,700
integrated. 
How do you? 

330
00:19:14,900 --> 00:19:19,000
Integrate disciplines we can say
that but it doesn't happen 

331
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,100
because you to see how ready are
teachers have day been 

332
00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:25,000
professionally developed in that
sense, how ready are teacher 

333
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,100
Educators? 
But the other thing is that this

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00:19:28,100 --> 00:19:32,500
remains on paper or it only sort
of day, it's there for the elite

335
00:19:32,500 --> 00:19:35,300
schools. 
Because if you look at even 

336
00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:37,200
Delhi, government schools, 
right? 

337
00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:41,000
A very small board. 
I mean thousand schools, 1100 

338
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,000
schools for Delhi government 
very small as compared to what 

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00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,300
other states are. 
I have to look at and even here 

340
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,900
two-thirds of the government 
schools. 

341
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,000
Do not offer science. 
They only offering Commerce and 

342
00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:55,900
social sciences. 
Why is it? 

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00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,700
So and this state, which Goes to
Town saying that it's done in 

344
00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:04,400
Education Revolution, which is 
really a very unpleasant thing 

345
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:08,200
to be hearing any government say
on the basis of what it actually

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00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,600
does and it actually throws out 
students into the open school so

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00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,300
that their marks don't show up 
in the CBS C exams. 

348
00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:20,500
This is one of the states where 
all government schools and all 

349
00:20:20,500 --> 00:20:24,200
poor children and all their 
marks will come up in the cbse. 

350
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,200
Not all states. 
Have it there, they stayed ones,

351
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:27,800
you see. 
So that's the difference. 

352
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:31,300
So this state, if it wants to 
show only good marks, it has to 

353
00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:33,200
throw out children into the open
school. 

354
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,000
It does that. 
And not just that, it's not 

355
00:20:36,008 --> 00:20:39,500
offering science why we know the
reasons. 

356
00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:40,900
We know that they may not be 
science. 

357
00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:43,800
Teachers, who can teach at that 
level that maths teachers are 

358
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:44,800
not. 
There we are. 

359
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,800
I also know, there are no Labs, 
there are no facilities till 

360
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:51,400
class tend to get away by doing 
no experiments, only doing 

361
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,100
something for the final exam. 
So I'm saying, within the system

362
00:20:55,200 --> 00:21:00,200
is a rationale of its own of who
gets what the choice rhetoric is

363
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,800
only there on paper and it's 
only there for some very elite 

364
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,500
school because private schools 
are also low cost private 

365
00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:08,500
schools which I have worse than 
government. 

366
00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:11,500
Schools are teachers are not 
trained, they don't have 

367
00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:14,600
qualified teachers so it's a 
small subset. 

368
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,500
Of our entire system which might
make use of these so-called 

369
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:24,500
choices or these options. 
So this sorting will allow you 

370
00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:27,700
to push out. 
A lot of people and not demand, 

371
00:21:27,700 --> 00:21:31,000
more not want to come into the 
more specialized courses which 

372
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,800
we know are not going to be 
really open to people from 

373
00:21:36,100 --> 00:21:39,900
disadvantaged classes or homes 
with unsupported families or 

374
00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:41,300
backgrounds and things like 
that. 

375
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,100
Among the changes suggested in 
the school. 

376
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:46,600
Curriculum is the introduction 
of mobile occasionally courses, 

377
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,500
at the school Level under the 
new curriculum rules being 

378
00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:51,700
proposed. 
Students would be able to opt to

379
00:21:51,700 --> 00:21:54,700
focus on vocational courses 
instead of the traditional ones.

380
00:21:55,100 --> 00:21:58,000
Professor a is that this would 
work against many students, 

381
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,000
particularly those from 
disadvantaged backgrounds. 

382
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,000
What is called location is 
troublesome in our context one 

383
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,000
because vocation in our country,
still is tied to cast and it is 

384
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,400
tied to Advantage and social 
status and Social Capital. 

385
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,600
You know, where who goes into? 
What kind of a cost. 

386
00:22:17,900 --> 00:22:21,500
I have been saying specifically 
that we should have work based 

387
00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:25,300
education for everyone. 
Why should some people be pushed

388
00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:29,500
into a so-called less academic 
stream called vocational? 

389
00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:31,800
You should have work based 
education for anyone. 

390
00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:35,500
Anyone, you could have be doing 
a science course and you do a 

391
00:22:35,500 --> 00:22:37,200
web-based course you do 
something else. 

392
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,900
You could be doing a work, based
course not segregation the 

393
00:22:40,900 --> 00:22:44,500
segregation. 
And differentiation is what then

394
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,700
actually harms students and the 
kinds of opportunities that they

395
00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:52,000
might get to go further. 
We have to be conscious about 

396
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,200
these things not just as 
rhetoric, which might sound 

397
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,700
nice, but through the ground 
realities and how constantly the

398
00:22:59,700 --> 00:23:03,500
ground realities play out there.
Logic and play out their own 

399
00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:06,600
rational within the system. 
There's nothing called choice. 

400
00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:10,900
But how do you see all these 
changes? 

401
00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:14,500
Then you know the Fallout of all
of this lets out a 

402
00:23:14,500 --> 00:23:21,300
centralization of exams. 
This sort of mainstream attempt 

403
00:23:21,300 --> 00:23:25,100
to make sure that people don't 
look Beyond a certain thing that

404
00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:27,500
they stick to the textbook. 
The Textbook itself, limits your

405
00:23:27,500 --> 00:23:32,100
vision and you look you all sort
of have a blinkered view of what

406
00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:36,500
your world is in a sense, how 
does all of this come together? 

407
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:44,800
We're risking our kind of 
precarious higher education, 

408
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,800
which sort of serves for the 
precariat as it is like the gig 

409
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,000
economy serves the prokaryotes 
you know you you do what you do.

410
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,100
You're not you don't know. 
You're not employed etc. 

411
00:23:55,100 --> 00:23:57,000
Etc. 
The pirate education. 

412
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,100
Also this for your course can 
serve that purpose. 

413
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:02,500
You leave after every year and 
you get a diploma. 

414
00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:04,500
What is the value of that 
diploma? 

415
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,300
But you have something in your 
hand, this way, you Have 

416
00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:10,100
something in your hand saying, 
I've done one Euro, you paid for

417
00:24:10,100 --> 00:24:12,900
something. 
It was shocking that someone 

418
00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:17,000
just made this comment. 
Delhi, LG made the comment that 

419
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,800
degrees are just the receipts of
the expenses that you paid for a

420
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,800
course. 
He said that because when up 

421
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,200
went into this show your degree 
campaign and things like that. 

422
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,100
He said, what is this degrees? 
I just the receipt. 

423
00:24:30,100 --> 00:24:35,000
So this is the way if degrees 
are meant to be just that, then 

424
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,800
we are dismantling. 
In fact, what we have achieved 

425
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,900
in public education and the 
higher level, which is what we 

426
00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:48,300
need to really have expanded in 
a more higher quality, more 

427
00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:52,100
inclusiveness more 
opportunities, which we haven't 

428
00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:54,600
done. 
And now we are dismantling even 

429
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,200
what we have done and then 
leaving it to all those who can 

430
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,200
pay to get whatever they want, 
or the others to do get all 

431
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:06,000
their credits from some teaching
shop, or some online because 

432
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,700
that's what the universe. 
Is alone. 

433
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,900
They've spent time giving us a 
list of content creators who are

434
00:25:11,900 --> 00:25:15,700
not academics their companies, 
so you can go and get your 

435
00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:18,600
credits from anywhere. 
So you can just shop around. 

436
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,500
We don't have enough 
universities, public university 

437
00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:25,700
is being supported state. 
Universities are literally, you 

438
00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:28,000
know, falling apart. 
And you're not taking that 

439
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,200
seriously. 
We are talking of other things 

440
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,200
circumventing that, it's just 
going to be the tire. 

441
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,900
Education is for those or even 
good quality. 

442
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,100
Education is for those who can 
pay for it. 

443
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,900
Today's episode was produced by 
Jay Raj Singh, soon-im arathi. 

444
00:25:48,900 --> 00:25:52,500
And on adjusting for a daily 
Spotlight on, people ideas and 

445
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:56,100
stories that matter, subscribe 
to us, we're available on t.i. 

446
00:25:56,100 --> 00:26:00,700
plus Spotify, Apple Google 
podcast and all other platforms 

447
00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:04,200
of your choice. 
For any new steps email us at 

448
00:26:04,200 --> 00:25:46,600
DIY podcast at times, internet 
dot in Today's episode was 

449
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,900
produced by Jay Raj Singh, 
soon-im arathi. 

450
00:25:48,900 --> 00:25:52,500
And on adjusting for a daily 
Spotlight on, people ideas and 

451
00:25:52,500 --> 00:25:56,100
stories that matter, subscribe 
to us, we're available on t.i. 

452
00:25:56,100 --> 00:26:00,700
plus Spotify, Apple Google 
podcast and all other platforms 

453
00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:04,200
of your choice. 
For any new steps email us at 

454
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,000
DIY podcast at times, internet 
dot in