1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,640 From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George, and this is the 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:15,680 Times of India podcast. The central government has 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,520 announced A caste census will be conducted whenever the next 4 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:21,640 census is carried out. Two things remain unclear. 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,200 When will the census be conducted and how the caste of 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,320 over 1 billion Indians will be counted? 7 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:30,840 Over the past decade, there have been multiple calls for a caste 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,360 census together, how much backward caste have progressed 9 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,720 and to even reconsider the reservations that exist for 10 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:40,120 government jobs and educational institutes. 11 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,960 While multiple states like Bihar and Telangana have conducted 12 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,560 caste censuses whose findings have been released, Karnataka 13 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,640 has perhaps been at the forefront of conducting surveys 14 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,960 based on caste. In today's episode, were talking 15 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,600 with political columnist and analyst Sugata Srinivasa Raju 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,160 about the controversy in the state over its own caste data 17 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,680 and the political difficulties that come with having this data. 18 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,240 Sugata started by talking about why Karnataka has been at the 19 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,440 forefront of counting caste of its residence and how it 20 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:16,160 started. Karnataka was at the forefront 21 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:21,720 of backward class reservations. Its not just the 1970s when the 22 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,840 Havnur Commission was set up by the Devarajaras government. 23 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:31,520 It goes back to 1919. The Mysore Maharaja was the one 24 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,120 who first set up a kind of Commission, it was called the 25 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,320 Leslie Miller Commission, Justice Leslie Miller 26 00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:42,360 Commission. So that was done because in the 27 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,320 neighboring state of Tamil Nadu, there was the Justice Party 28 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,240 thing that was going up saying that the backward classes have 29 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,360 been oppressed and they have not been given their due in 30 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,400 government jobs. And that rhetoric was catching 31 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,000 up. And the Mysore Maharaja was came 32 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,600 from a very small community, you know, I mean a small 33 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,000 aristocratic community. And if he had to retain control 34 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:08,639 over his state, he had to demographically accommodate the 35 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,080 majority communities and show a lot of justice having been done, 36 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,640 basically. So when they did that survey in 37 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:22,200 1919, the biggest objection came from the Diwan of this state, 38 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,400 that is Sir M Vishveshwariya. He was a Brahmin. 39 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,040 He sort of put out what is a meritocratic argument that we 40 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,800 often listen to today. So he resigned in protest in 41 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,360 fact. But the Maharaja still went 42 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:38,880 ahead. The Midler Commission data was 43 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,160 astounding in many ways because the dominant communities in the 44 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:47,120 state did not seem to have proper representation in the 45 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,280 governance or in government jobs. 46 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:54,560 There was a disproportionate kind of control of the Brahmins 47 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,880 over administration. And you'll be surprised, after 48 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,760 the Brahmins, it was the Muslims who had a greater say in the 49 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,800 administration of the state or the governance of the state and 50 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:07,880 Muslims. It is again historical reasons. 51 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,440 Tipu and either Hyder Ali and others had ruled this state. 52 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,200 So the bureaucracy was full of them. 53 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,560 And then the Brahmins anywhere had cultural capital but the 54 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,840 Okaligas and the Lingayats who dominated the region, first the 55 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,480 Okaligas and then the Lingayats. Because you should remember in 56 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,720 1919 until 1956, the state had not been integrated. 57 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,360 The state had not been unified as a linguistic state. 58 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:39,240 So the old princely Mysore state, the erstwhile princely 59 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:43,920 Mysore state, where the Okaligas were in domination, that 60 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:48,440 domination did not reflect in the government or in jobs or in 61 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:52,400 control. So this Miller Commission paved 62 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,120 way for that accommodation, I would say. 63 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,520 And Lingayats also realized that they were not given adequate 64 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:05,320 representation because their population size was being 65 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,360 completely ignored. And then these two communities, 66 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,560 this is the historical dominance of the two communities. 67 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,760 So the two communities start getting activated and they start 68 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,519 organizing themselves. Sugata says that the big caste 69 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:24,000 data that emerged in the state post independence was the LG 70 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,200 Havanur Commission, which was the first Backward Classes 71 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,880 Commission in Karnataka. The Commission met over 3,00,000 72 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,480 people in the state and assess their economic and educational 73 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,000 progress. The committee's recommendations 74 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:40,520 included reservations in state government jobs and even knowing 75 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,160 students caste so that the state could ensure that children from 76 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,000 lower caste made progress into higher educational institutes. 77 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,240 Sugata pointed out that the Havnur Commission's report 78 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:55,040 actually inspired a lot of the big Mandal Commission's work. 79 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,600 The Mandal Commissions report in the late 1970s was the basis for 80 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,400 the existing reservation policies for Schedule Caste 81 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,760 tribes and other backward caste in government jobs and 82 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,440 educational institutes. Sugata says that while there was 83 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:12,840 a social aspect to the Havanur Commissions creation, there was 84 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:15,120 a deeply political aspect to it as well. 85 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,160 And it's interesting as to why it happened to the 70s. 86 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,520 It's because Devra Jaras was from a again, a small 87 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:27,880 aristocratic community called the Arasu community, which was a 88 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:32,840 community that sort of supported the aristocratic interests of 89 00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:36,640 the Maharaja of Mysore. And he was in a minority and he 90 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:41,400 needed one dominant community to be on his side to retain power. 91 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,080 And the dominant communities would always sort of arm twist. 92 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:51,000 So he decided to integrate all the backwards in the state, 93 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,000 right? So he knew that was an assorted 94 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,600 population and he could bring them together and continue to be 95 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,240 in power. And he's been to this day, he's 96 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,040 the longest serving chief minister. 97 00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:05,920 So in the 1970s, he does a magical kind of reservation 98 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,120 process in Karnataka, which later becomes a template for the 99 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,280 rest of India. Karnataka in 1995 set up a 100 00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:16,600 Backward Classes Commission that would not just enumerate the 101 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,920 backward classes in the state but also indicate their socio 102 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,520 economic progress. The report that is at the centre 103 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:27,120 of the controversy in Karnataka presently was conducted by this 104 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:29,680 Commission. While the survey was conducted 105 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:33,440 all the way back in 2015. Sugata says there's been a 106 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:36,200 steady leak of data about the findings of the survey. 107 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:40,720 Except there's a problem. And here's Sugata explaining why 108 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,920 the data released so far has been so controversial. 109 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:51,520 Why this has become problematic is more than focusing on the 110 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:57,040 socio economic advancement and trying to inform the population 111 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:00,600 of Karnataka as to who stands where when it comes to socio 112 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:05,200 economic advancement. This is a partial release of 113 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:10,000 numbers of independent castes, dominant caste when even a 114 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:13,400 religious community like the Muslims, the minority 115 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,280 communities. So it just puts out a number 116 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,080 there and it does not tell you who stands where. 117 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:26,680 But you don't know who is performing how when it comes to 118 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,640 socio economic advancement, whether they are backward or 119 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:34,280 whether they are forward. That is all that matters in this 120 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,320 whole thing. But except for that, everything 121 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,400 else is being spoken about. This is one set of the 122 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,320 complication Arun. But the other set, and which is 123 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:51,400 even more dubious in its record, is now the existing chairman of 124 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,960 the Commission and other politicians, including Congress. 125 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,200 Politicians have been saying two things. 126 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,840 One is the data is old, it is 10 years old. 127 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:03,880 You have to do a new thing. That is one part of the story. 128 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,200 The second is even more dangerous and has been 129 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:11,720 overlooked, which is that these people, the Commission itself is 130 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,560 saying the original report is missing, which means you have no 131 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:19,680 access to original data that has been collected. 132 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,040 Sugata says there's one issue that comes with any enumeration 133 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,800 of caste. But with this data in Karnataka, 134 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,720 there's an additional problem, which is that the original data 135 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,559 of the survey officially seems to be missing if. 136 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:38,600 You want to get a certain advantage out of government 137 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,159 larges. You may identify yourself for 138 00:08:41,159 --> 00:08:43,120 something as a different sub caste. 139 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,760 If you belong to a certain sub caste which you know will not 140 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:50,280 get you as much benefits as the other sub caste. 141 00:08:50,680 --> 00:08:53,120 Nobody stops you from identifying yourself there. 142 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,600 You can't go and check the genealogy of the person. 143 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,640 The second thing is there is a certain problem in Karnataka 144 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:05,120 historically, which is when the Lingayatism came into play, that 145 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,400 is in the 12th century, it was an amalgamation of caste. 146 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,040 It was a coming together of caste to actually do away with a 147 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,120 caste order. So now finally something has 148 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,440 happened over the centuries, which is you came together to be 149 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:25,720 a caste less order, but now you try to remember what your 150 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,720 original caste was and claimed reservation on the basis of that 151 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,400 for political reasons. You say you're a Lingayat, but 152 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,840 when you need reservation, you put yourself somewhere else. 153 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:40,840 So how does one know that what data you have, even if it has 154 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,560 been collected meticulously? The Kantraj Commission has not 155 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:48,600 collected data meticulously is what what is coming out now. 156 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:52,680 And there is no original report, you know, I mean the raw data, 157 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:54,360 nobody seems to know where it is. 158 00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:57,320 The current commissions chairman himself is saying that. 159 00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:01,520 So there is enough basis to suspect the authenticity of the 160 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,400 whole process. Even if you assume everything is 161 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:09,000 correct, how do you know that truth has been elicited when you 162 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:14,200 enumerated the person? The second thing is, as castes 163 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:19,960 became conscious of their identities, for instance, the 164 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,320 caste of Chief Minister Siddaramaiah, the Kuruba 165 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:27,880 community, now the Kuruba community and the Okaliga 166 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,840 community for the longest period in history have been overlapping 167 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:37,440 communities. After the 1980s or 85, because 168 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,760 there was a new consciousness that this was a separate thing, 169 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,080 they started calling themselves Kuruba. 170 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,600 If you go to certain areas of the state, some people may still 171 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,600 be under this confusion whether they're part of Kaliga, part 172 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,840 Kuruba. So you you can't draw a line and 173 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,480 say like you do in the general census, saying that no, this 174 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,200 fellow does not have a motorbike, this fellow has a 175 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,360 fridge, this fellows houses thatch to. 176 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,320 You can't make a draw line in a caste census. 177 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,080 You know, you pointed out this 10 year delay in things and that 178 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:16,080 they should be a fresh survey, but then what explains the 179 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,840 government looking at that survey and saying, you know, 180 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,160 that's what we are going to go by right now. 181 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,560 Rather than conduct a fresh census, which really would tie 182 00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:28,560 in with say what the Congress partys campaign has been across 183 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:32,240 to almost 2 elections now, which is that we will do a fresh 184 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,920 census, we'll find out exactly what it is and reservations will 185 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,320 be adjusted accordingly. Instead, if there's so much of A 186 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,720 cloud over this 10 year old data, why is the government 187 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,280 holding on to it then? How are you going to determine 188 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,840 whether this person belongs to this caste or this sub? 189 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,160 Caste is the major issue. So 10 year delay that we are 190 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:57,520 speaking about is the least of the problems because you know, I 191 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,600 mean 10 year delay, OK, I will go ahead and do a fresh survey, 192 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,320 but will you be in any better position is the question. 193 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:10,200 So earlier it was a novelty. So you accepted whatever data 194 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,600 was being thrown at you. You if somebody said you're 12%, 195 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,400 you're 12%, somebody said you're 14%, you're 14%. 196 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:18,920 That's exactly what was happening with Okaliga Zelinka. 197 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,280 It's they said, somebody said we are 18%, somebody said no, no, 198 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:23,720 no, that's a very conservative estimate. 199 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:27,400 We were 22%. So now they're particularly 200 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,240 upset because their demographic strength has been underplayed. 201 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,800 So and what will happen you asked if the government does a 202 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:41,560 new survey, new survey or old survey the as long as the 203 00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:45,160 political capital is with these two communities and the S ES 204 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,400 schedule cast because of their numbers. 205 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,600 Any government trying to sort of allocate power or rework on this 206 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,760 thing will lose this whole thing. 207 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:58,680 They lose power. Essentially. 208 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,520 It's a power game. It's not a socio economic 209 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:05,000 educational game anymore. It's a political game and that 210 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,800 has to be understood. Besides all of this, there is 211 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,680 another very new urban and modern problem which is of 212 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:16,920 migration. Now there is so much of 213 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,680 migration that takes place. So there is this. 214 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:23,520 This whole thing has been such a reductionist thing. 215 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:27,560 They have reduced it into creating new tribal identities 216 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:31,600 or trying to capitalize on tribal and ethnic and caste 217 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,280 identities instead of making it look like a scientific exercise. 218 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:42,080 So Rahul Gandhi, if he is trying to advocate caste senses, he has 219 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,600 to also give us a methodological solution to the caste census. 220 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,440 He is talking, you know, in very broad terms without 221 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,560 understanding the complications that it is going to create. 222 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,800 And I'll tell you there are twofold complications. 1 is 223 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,040 he'll he'll lose his government here if all Lingayat MLAs and 224 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,600 all Okaliga MLAs decide to sit out of the government because of 225 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,200 because the Congress party has done this, that the government 226 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,280 is going to fall. And the second thing is the 227 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,400 possibility of their coming back to power is also remote. 228 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,160 Its because the resources are with these two communities. 229 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,520 So if you're looking at electoral gains, then its not 230 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,440 that all the backward classes will come together and vote for 231 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,120 a certain political party because there is a new problem 232 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,480 there. All the backward classes may 233 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,680 have been put under a list and they may all be eligible for 234 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:38,440 reservation but there is only one or two or three communities 235 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:43,000 there in that 100 list which dominates and cannibalizes all 236 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:47,360 the quota and Siddaramaiahs community, the Kuruba community, 237 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,840 Bangarappa, the former chief minister, his community that is 238 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,120 the Ediger community, these are two dominant communities which 239 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,880 has which have cannibalized quota in that section. 240 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,440 So if two of them are cannibalizing or three of them 241 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:09,120 are cannibalizing, the rest of them, that is say 98 or 99 or 95 242 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,480 of them may just not want to be on the side that these people 243 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,440 are. So these are the complications 244 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:20,200 which I think Rahul Gandhi fails to understand or has not cared 245 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,720 to understand and he just keeps pushing for this kind of a caste 246 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:28,320 survey, which is going to be a major problem for his own party. 247 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,840 He is also aligned with Mandal parties, Samajwadi Party, 248 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:38,560 Rashtriya Janatha Dal RJDJDU, you know, I mean in the past. 249 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:43,240 So these caste based parties, Mandal parties which in the 250 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:47,760 which are in the regional areas where the Congress has a tie up 251 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:52,800 with them, will never want their basis of existence to be taken 252 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,640 away. If you try to start playing the 253 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,840 caste game like them, what will be the incentive for them to 254 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,400 align with you? They'll say he's heating up our 255 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:07,640 space, so let's keep him out. The outrage seems to be 256 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,520 primarily among the vocal Leaguers and the Veera Shiva 257 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,000 Linga. It's over the findings because 258 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,080 they're completely outraged that their numbers, they say, are 259 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,400 lower than what they believe it is. 260 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:25,560 Why does being a lower number in a very statistical sense matter 261 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:31,320 if the reservation is not being changed or it doesn't affect 262 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,240 them? Yeah, that's a very interesting 263 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,840 question. Its political game is about 264 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,200 perception. Its not about actual numerical 265 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,920 strength. So it will allow you to bargain 266 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,680 for more constituencies to contest from it. 267 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,520 It creates a kind of perception in the in the voting blocks. 268 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,360 There are a lot of a lot of signaling that happens if you're 269 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,320 a dominant community. It could be a feudal signaling 270 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,440 or it could be something else. So the moment you create that 271 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:04,160 domination narrative like the BJP does with religion, you 272 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:08,040 know, so that kind of a narrative is actually what 273 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:12,119 propels political power, what creates that kind of control. 274 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,079 And it's all about control. I mean they may be complaining 275 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:18,000 about this for political reasons. 276 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,079 There is a further complication which is not. 277 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,880 It is not that as it is being made out at the national level 278 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:27,640 that only the Okaligas and Lingayats are upset. 279 00:17:27,839 --> 00:17:31,600 Now even within the Lingayats for the last three to four 280 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,600 years, there is a different movement that is happening which 281 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:39,520 is the Pancham Salis or 110th of the Lingayats are apparently 282 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,880 Pancham Salis, the sub caste and they have never been empowered. 283 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,880 The Banajigas, the trading community or the Sadhar 284 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,280 Lingayats who are smaller in number or the Jangamas who are 285 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,720 the priestly class, they have dominated that community despite 286 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,720 being smaller in lumber. It is like saying that the 287 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,360 Brahmins have dominated the administrative system or the 288 00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:05,480 governance system although being just minuscule of the population 289 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,160 because they had educational capital and cultural capital and 290 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,720 social capital. So similarly in a state 291 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:18,360 situation, a similar thing has happened where a small subgroup 292 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:24,120 within the Lingayats have used the Lingayat umbrella to capture 293 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:26,080 power and that sub caste has grown. 294 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,760 So the Panchamchasalis are challenging the entire Lingayat 295 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,920 kind of formulation and similarly you are seeing that 296 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,040 happening within the schedule castes. 297 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,000 See schedule castes are the number one community in the 298 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,920 state of Karnataka according to whatever numbers and it's it's 299 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,880 it's their enumeration is done far more, you know, accurately 300 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,400 because of again, there was a constitutional mandate to do 301 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,560 that. But even under them, the 302 00:18:55,560 --> 00:19:02,440 Mardigas who are supposedly 60% or 65% of 70%, you know, depends 303 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:07,200 on whatever there is a new survey on for to determine what 304 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,120 the subcasts are within the scheduled castes. 305 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,040 So the Mardigas are claiming that see we are dominant but we 306 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,880 have never enjoyed political power like the others. 307 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:22,200 So which is Kharge comes from a relatively less dominant 308 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:27,520 scheduled caste community and KH Munyappa is compatriot. 309 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:31,080 A Dalit compatriot in the Congress party comes from a more 310 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,840 dominant sub caste. But KH Munyappa has not enjoyed 311 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,000 as much power as Kharge, so they're all very upset. 312 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,920 They are now. They did a padiyatra recently 313 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,440 and there is a new Commission called Justice Naghmohan Das 314 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:49,640 Committee which is actually trying to look at what is the 315 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,160 number of the different sub castes within the scheduled 316 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,800 castes. The commissions report also says 317 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,520 that look, the Maldigas are deserving may be of higher 318 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,800 reservations or rather really any subcategory within a 319 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,120 category deserves higher reservations. 320 00:20:06,120 --> 00:20:09,560 Like they've in fact endorsed the creation of a most backward 321 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,200 caste sort of thing where which is in line with what the Supreme 322 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:18,080 Court said, you know, to create reservations for less dominant 323 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,040 sub caste. So wouldn't the commissions 324 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,080 reports then be in some ways benefiting socio economic 325 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,960 categories rather than. Yeah, you. 326 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:30,080 Should remember what we are discussing is the backward 327 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,560 classes survey. We are its, its its put out by 328 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,400 the backward classes, permanent backward classes Commission. 329 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,320 It has got nothing to do with the survey of scheduled castes 330 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,560 and Scheduled Tribes. That's a separate thing. 331 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,280 So they may have made a generalized statement, but they 332 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,880 are not speaking on data. This looks exclusively at 333 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,360 backward casts and backward classes and the suggestions that 334 00:20:54,360 --> 00:20:59,200 have been made are for them. They have no mandate to get into 335 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,280 the schedule casting. Therefore, that has now come to 336 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:06,680 the fore where the Mardigas are saying that you give us this 337 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,840 reservated of padiyatra and stuff like that, which I 338 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,400 mentioned and that's why there is another committee which is 339 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,000 looking into it. Interestingly, the political 340 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,200 point to be made here is during this entire churning of 10 years 341 00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,000 or 15 years when all this has been happening, it's always been 342 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,200 Siddaramaiah at the helm. He has always dodged the caste 343 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,680 survey thing first. First term, it was ready. 344 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,120 Now why did he wait until the Kantraj Commission report went 345 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:37,960 missing? It was submitted to him in 2015. 346 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,040 He never did anything. He was in power till 2018. 347 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,720 Then now he says, oh, the report is lost that the Commission is 348 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,240 saying that. So I think one of the opposition 349 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,560 leaders said it is in his house recently. 350 00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:54,160 So he has to dig it out from his own residence. 351 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:59,880 He is not been sincere as far as this is concerned because he 352 00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,720 knows the complication. He knows the first person who 353 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,400 would be affected by this will be him. 354 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:09,040 He's lose, he'll lose power. He has now suddenly let out a 355 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:14,800 few things so that he retains power because there is 356 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,040 competition to his chair from DK Shivakumar. 357 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,880 So that is the political side of it. 358 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,640 So he's not he's not saying that here is the entire report. 359 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,320 Please look at it and let's do it when I am committed to the 360 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:28,960 backward classes, which has given me power. 361 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,320 No, he's not saying that. They're leaked something today. 362 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,360 Then they say that is missing tomorrow. 363 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:39,400 And now the there was a cabinet meeting held exclusively to 364 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:41,840 discuss this less than a week ago. 365 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,160 They postponed it to May. They said we will make 366 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,560 corrections. What corrections will you make 367 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,560 to data? Will you go back and, you know, 368 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:52,240 write whatever you want? What is the process of 369 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:53,680 correction that you're talking about? 370 00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:57,920 And why is it that someone like a Veerapa Moili who tried to 371 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:01,400 implement the Chinnapa Reddy Commission, why is he saying 372 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,520 that the data is old? So they're creating more 373 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,600 confusion for this thing to be postponed because they know 374 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,880 whenever a chief minister has touched this, including Moili 375 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,480 Moily tried to do these things in 94 and the and the results in 376 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,520 94 December was that the Congress got the lowest number 377 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:26,440 of seats in history because Deve Gowda had mobilized the entire 378 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,520 dominant communities to vote against the Congress party. 379 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,600 And rest is history. Deve Gowda became chief 380 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,600 minister, then Prime Minister and all of that. 381 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,160 Its a Hornets Hornets nest as they would say. 382 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,000 You're throwing a stone at a beehive and you don't know what 383 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:42,280 is going to come back and sting you. 384 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,480 You know in. Terms of at least religious 385 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,600 data, when you look at it, it doesn't seem to hint at this 386 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,840 sort of explosion of Muslim population, which is something 387 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,760 the BJP has constantly spoken of and and its not just in 388 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,600 Karnataka, its nationally. But does this finding then 389 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,600 effectively say that? Well, that's not a cause for 390 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,320 worry. In this survey, they are dumb. 391 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,040 They're saying this. They're not saying that their 392 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,240 number has gone up. They are telling you this is 393 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,000 their number. The rate of growth of Muslims 394 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,960 has come down in India. That is a acknowledged fact. 395 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,400 But they're saying that this is their real number here in 396 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,440 Karnataka, but they're also identifying sabkas under that. 397 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,920 There may be some people who have benefited from the 398 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,320 government schemes much more than somebody else. 399 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,880 There is no commentary being made on the growth in their 400 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,800 number, but it has a political implication. 401 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,720 I think you hinted it correctly because the moment you say 402 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,680 Muslims are the second most dominant community in this 403 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:52,920 state, a Congress chief minister whose chair is shaking terribly 404 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,960 is making way for a kind of polarized narrative to be set by 405 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,240 the BJP. So Siddaramaiah is not helping 406 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,480 the Congress. Siddaramaiah's philosophy seems 407 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,600 to be after me, the deluge. I have been chief minister for a 408 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,040 longer period, for a long period of time. 409 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,840 So if I let this thing in about Muslims that the BJP will 410 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,600 exploit that. And if the BJP begins to exploit 411 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,000 the religious, and now after Pahelgam, it's even more, you 412 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,560 know, dominant kind of a narrative that's going to get 413 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,920 played. And if that is going to be 414 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,880 exploited, his rival will never be chief minister. 415 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,040 It will take him, I think, a decade or two to sort of come 416 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,480 back to think. So he may be actually playing a 417 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,520 very nasty political game. We don't know. 418 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,200 I'm making this is my political reading. 419 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,560 I want to be very clear on that. So finally, should rather than 420 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:57,480 do you see any change in the reservation π based on this, in 421 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,360 this governments term? Or really, how do you see this 422 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:05,160 going forward? So I will caviate it by saying 423 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,480 that we don't have data. I have not seen data. 424 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,440 I have not seen a socio economic data at all. 425 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,800 So I do, I really don't know. So I will not put my money on 426 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,720 something and say that we have data. 427 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,080 So let's go ahead and do this. No, I think it's a very 428 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,800 difficult call to make. I find it very difficult to say 429 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,360 that if this process will go on or not is a very difficult thing 430 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:32,440 to say because they're playing political games around. 431 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:37,200 They're not actually interested in the welfare, socio economic, 432 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,520 educational welfare of the marginalized communities. 433 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:42,400 They're all playing political games. 434 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,440 They're looking at constituencies, they're looking 435 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,960 at power games. So if that is the basic motive 436 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,720 and intent, then how can you sort of do anything sincerely 437 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:55,760 so. Def. 438 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,800 Karnataka is definitely not going to be providing a model 439 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,440 for the Congress to say that look, we've done it here, look 440 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,440 how it worked. No, far from that. 441 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,080 I think it will explode. There's already something 442 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,800 happening and I think there will be some kind of an explosion 443 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,880 because it's going to be chaotic, anarchic and we don't 444 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,840 know how. The dominant communities, if 445 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,000 they sort of there is a standoffish attitude and they 446 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:20,600 all decide to leave the government. 447 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:23,200 Don't forget there is a mutt system. 448 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,960 There is a seminary network in Karnataka for the Lingayas and 449 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,480 that seminary network, the Matas, that network has been 450 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,240 replicated by all castes, backwards, scheduled caste, 451 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,920 scheduled tribes, everybody. The caste mobilization thing can 452 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,200 actually affect. If somebody says I am a victim 453 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,320 of this whole process, then they can all. 454 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,120 If the mutts decide that the Lingayat MLAs and ministers 455 00:27:49,120 --> 00:27:51,040 should come out of the Congress thing, what will you do? 456 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,120 If the colleagues decide something similar, what will you 457 00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:56,880 do? Or if they all come together and 458 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,600 decide to throw out the existing Chief minister and his cabal, 459 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,760 what will you do? So these are loud political 460 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:09,160 questions that we need to ask. Today's episode was produced by 461 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,760 Jayraj Singh and Sahil Gupta. For a daily spotlight on people, 462 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,800 ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us. 463 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,960 We're available on the Times of India website, Spotify, Apple, 464 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,000 Amazon, or wherever else you get your podcast. 465 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,920 For any new steps of feedback, mail me at 466 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,880 arun.george@timesgroup.com.