1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,640 From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George, and this is the 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:15,680 Times of India podcast. If you're not somebody who knows 3 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:18,640 all about prisons, think back to what you do know about them. 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,320 Apart from the high walls in the overcrowded jail, most films 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,680 that have characters that go to jail invariably deal with prison 6 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:36,120 breaks. Then there's the films that deal 7 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,320 with overcrowding and gangs in jails. 8 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:41,040 Sometimes there's a bit of a glimpse into the sexual abuse 9 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,560 and hierarchies in jails. Mumbai based journalist Sukanya 10 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,960 Shanta, who writes for The Wire, has reported extensively about 11 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:49,920 jails and the criminal justice system. 12 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,600 She says that at any point of time, India's jails are always 13 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:59,760 filled well beyond capacity. Across India we have some 1350 14 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,960 to 1370 prisons. The prison capacity is off. 15 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:08,120 I think three 2.75 or 3,00,000 people who have actually worked 16 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,200 in prisons for many years. They say that some 15 to 17 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,200 20,00,000 prisoners people actually get processed by the 18 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,240 criminal justice system. That means some somebody would 19 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,520 be actually sent to jail for a few days and it will come out. 20 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:22,640 But the at the end of the year when the prison sent, like when 21 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:27,000 the prison data is actually collected, you are around 4 1/2 22 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,880 to 5,00,000 of prisoners. And during COVID, it had 23 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,800 actually gone up to 5.5 to 6,00,000. 24 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:37,320 In 2022, it was found that 76% of the inmates in India's jails 25 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:39,920 are under trials. That is, the trial in their case 26 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,640 is yet to be completed. Thousands are in jail just 27 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,440 because they don't have the money to pay their bail. 28 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,800 A majority of those in jail are from backward communities. 29 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,000 None of this is anything new to anybody who's familiar with data 30 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,240 on India's jails. But in 2020, Sukanya Shanta 31 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,760 reported on one aspect of jails that all the studies about jails 32 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,520 had missed caste based labour allocation and segregation on 33 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:05,880 the basis of caste in prisons. While hearing a petition filed 34 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,680 by her in the Supreme Court, Chief Justice of India Justice 35 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,520 DY Chandrachud thanked Sukanya for her reporting which brought 36 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:14,160 these issues to the court's attention. 37 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:17,640 In today's episode, my colleague Alka Dukkar and I are in 38 00:02:17,640 --> 00:02:21,040 conversation with Sukanya Shanta about what her reporting reveals 39 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,000 about the problematic manner in which people are handled in 40 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,320 Indian jails. Sukanya says that when she 41 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,280 started her reporting on the issue nearly five years ago, it 42 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,840 wasn't exactly a surprise to her that caste based practices exist 43 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,800 in prison. Caste is a social reality that 44 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:40,680 we know of and there is nothing surprising to an extent that 45 00:02:40,920 --> 00:02:42,960 caste practices continue in in the prison. 46 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,400 What surprised her was what she found in a jail manual. 47 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,960 A jail manual is a document that dictates how jail should be run 48 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,680 by a state. It also specifies in black and 49 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,120 white the rights of a prisoner, what they are entitled to get 50 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,160 and what they don't have to do. Somehow like I just happened to 51 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:04,680 stumble upon one prison manual of Rajasthan and I realised that 52 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:10,320 it has very explicitly mentioned things about caste based labour 53 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,480 division in prison. And from there like I just like 54 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,960 got very curious, I started actually looking for more and 55 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:17,720 more prison manual. And prison anyway is like a 56 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,120 state subject. So you have every state having a 57 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,600 very specific prison manual, Sukanya. 58 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,320 Says that when she spoke with people who had been in jail, 59 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,160 many of them never knew this document, the jail manual, 60 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,560 existed. So she began working with 61 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,200 organizations that work in jails to get access to more manuals 62 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,280 across states. So it took me like some time to 63 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,360 get these prison manuals and then I realized like 11 states 64 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,000 still actually have very explicit mention of caste. 65 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:49,080 If you look at it say Rajasthan Mpup, they mentioned specific 66 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,280 caste groups like the schedule caste groups from their states. 67 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,800 Say for example MP in Rajasthan has mentioned of things like 68 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,880 prisoners belonging to Meta community will be assigned job 69 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,800 of manual scavenging. In the case of UP it becomes 70 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,400 Jatav community in in the case of West Bengal it it is the 71 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:10,920 Chandal community. Sukanya says that in the 72 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,440 beginning she felt that while these practices were listed in 73 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,160 the jail manuals, this surely must not be implemented inside 74 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,640 the jails. She discovered she was wrong. 75 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,080 We conducted like some 35 to 40 interviews of prisoners from 76 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,760 across different states. Most of them were from Bahujan 77 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,360 communities but some were also sovereign us to like understand 78 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,680 the different caste experiences that each might actually have in 79 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:35,960 prisons. So we realise that things that 80 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,480 are mentioned in the prison manual definitely is getting 81 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:43,000 implemented, but there are like so many more experiences which 82 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:44,600 are much worse than what is actually written. 83 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:48,360 Sukanya says that when anyone goes to jail for the first time 84 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,520 as an under trial in a case, your personal details are noted. 85 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,720 1 aspect that's always noted is your caste. 86 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,480 In prison, your details are like actually taken down in the under 87 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,000 trial section. There's an under trial section 88 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,200 in the prison where your details are like actually noted down, 89 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:08,080 where your age, your, your education, your gender, your 90 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:11,320 caste, if you're landed, if you're landless, all type of 91 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:14,320 things are like actually mentioned in that in that diary. 92 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:20,000 So the moment you enter you, you are looked at as an individual 93 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,560 who's a cast bearing individual. You aren't looked at as an 94 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:28,280 individual who has committed a like an XYZ crime, an individual 95 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:30,960 who's entering a prison space for the first time so should be 96 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,120 identified as a as a first time offender or a repeat offender. 97 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:38,000 You just looked at as a person carrying your caste identity. 98 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,160 Among the interviews that Sukanya conducted was one of a 99 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,640 young man whose family was originally from Bihar but had 100 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,600 migrated to Delhi. After completing an industrial 101 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:50,520 training course, he travelled for work to a factory in 102 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,440 Rajasthan. This man works for a couple of 103 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:57,120 days and there is some theft incident that actually happens 104 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,920 in that workshop. And the owner of that workshop 105 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:06,080 decides to he he he thinks that this man is involved in this, in 106 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,280 this theft and he reports him to the police. 107 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,640 He is immediately arrested and sent to jail. 108 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,760 He goes to jail and he mentions his caste and then is he? 109 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,960 He says that he is from so and so caste from Bihar. 110 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,000 And then he's asked what is the category of the cast and he says 111 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,640 he like may like in his in his own words, I'm just repeating 112 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:29,280 that He says so then they mention it is as SC when he goes 113 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:34,080 to jail the first day itself, he is actually asked to clean up 114 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,320 the jail go jail veranda. So then he starts cleaning, 115 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,000 cleaning up. And he thinks that maybe I'm 116 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,000 like somebody who's very young who's also, it's my first day in 117 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,280 jail. He's watched a lot of Bollywood 118 00:06:46,280 --> 00:06:48,960 films. So he thinks that, OK, maybe 119 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,320 like, this is how, like, criminals are actually treated 120 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:54,960 inside prison. So I have to actually go through 121 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,720 this from sweeping veranda. He's asked to like, clean 122 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:00,080 toilets. He realizes that, OK, there are 123 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:03,400 like, many prisoners who are coming inside much after me, but 124 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:04,880 they aren't actually assigned this job. 125 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,120 And there is a certain understanding that this impure 126 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,080 job or like unclean job has to be done by somebody who belongs 127 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,480 to a certain caste. And then he recalls that, OK, 128 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,240 fine, I was asked about my caste. 129 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,440 So that is the reason why the caste has been asked. 130 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,160 At one point in time, he is asked to actually clean a septic 131 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,440 tank, which gets choked. And this is not something that 132 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,360 he is equipped to do. He doesn't know how to actually 133 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,800 enter that suspect and actually go and do the cleaning work. 134 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,080 But the jail authorities compend him to like actually just 135 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,920 undress and get into that septic tank and clean it up. 136 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,360 I met him a couple of years later and then he speaks about 137 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:43,880 like, and, and he still carries a trauma. 138 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,080 And the way he speaks about it, he actually says that like how 139 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,280 he for the first time, he realized that because he had 140 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,120 actually not stayed in Bihar and he, like his, his parents had 141 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,320 actually migrated from Bihar to Delhi. 142 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,080 So like he, he didn't really have that caste experience. 143 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,760 And in Delhi, like, because they were migrant family, like their 144 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:04,840 experiences were brutal of another kind, but not 145 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,360 necessarily of caste. And then in prisons, he 146 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,040 suddenly, like, actually told that he's he's Dalit and he's 147 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,280 assigned this job. Like he says, like, I felt very 148 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,760 dirty. And he associates that very 149 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,080 impure feeling around it because he was made to feel that way. 150 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,000 And then when he was asked to do these things, other prisoners 151 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,040 who must have actually come in much after him must have been 152 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,480 implicated in cases much more serious than what he was 153 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:34,120 actually arrested for. Those were not actually asked to 154 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,559 do this kind of work. He speaks about how some some 155 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:42,120 people from Brahman communities were actually made to just carry 156 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:43,799 out the cooking work inside prison. 157 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,280 Cooking is clean. And so because it's clean, we 158 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,840 will actually have somebody from a higher caste, a so-called 159 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,680 higher caste, actually do that job. 160 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,400 And this is mentioned in the prison manual. 161 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,680 Yes, but even if it is not mentioned in the prison manual, 162 00:08:57,680 --> 00:09:00,840 this is largely the practice across all states. 163 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,360 During her reporting, Sukanya says she also discovered that in 164 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,600 at least one jail in Tamil Nadu, prisoners were actively being 165 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,400 segregated on the basis of caste. 166 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,040 She explains what she found. Now segregation of basis of 167 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,600 caste is not a part of any prison manual but that's a 168 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,440 practice that we actually came across in the southern part of 169 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:24,160 Tamil Nadu where where caste atrocities are rampant in those 170 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,640 areas of prisons actually also have had a lot of violence 171 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,000 inside the prison because of caste. 172 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:35,640 So I was talking to some some of my sources who work in prisons 173 00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:37,040 in the southern part of Tamil Nadu. 174 00:09:37,560 --> 00:09:41,240 I came across this one specific mention of Palayampothai prison. 175 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,320 There the entire prison is structured around caste. 176 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:48,160 The physical structure of prison is built in such a way that 177 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,120 barracks are actually named as Pakas. 178 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,600 So there is this one barrack which is called Pallar Barrack. 179 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,640 Pallar is a schedule caste, the pallor caste. 180 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,040 Barack is very far away from say, the library, from the 181 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,960 canteen, from the hospitals. The priorities are actually 182 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:04,440 given to the Nadars and the divers. 183 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,400 Then I realized that this is something that was known to 184 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,800 people and some human rights defenders in that area had also 185 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,480 already gone to the Madurai bench of the Madras High Court. 186 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,440 So I got in touch with the lawyer and then I realized that 187 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:21,560 when the case came up for hearing, the home department of 188 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:26,760 Tamil Nadu state told the court that we will not be able to 189 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,320 handle a law and order situation if we don't segregate them. 190 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,480 And that was like a one line argument that had happened in 191 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:35,440 the court and the court readily accepted it. 192 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,760 What appeared commonsensical to the Tamil Nadu court might well 193 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:42,120 appear the same to many of us. Sukanya says there's an easy, 194 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:45,280 real world explanation to show the ridiculousness of this 195 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,800 decision to segregate prisoners on the basis of caste. 196 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,880 Somebody in the prison must have actually come up with this 197 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:55,000 genius idea in Tamil Nadu where they decided, OK, fine, let us 198 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,040 just segregate these people and put them separately somehow. 199 00:10:58,040 --> 00:10:59,760 It must have worked at some point in time. 200 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,480 While it began with an idea, they also thought that if it's a 201 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:08,560 Pallar barrack, let us just send a prison official who comes from 202 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:10,160 that caste in that in that barrack. 203 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,920 So they did not just segregate the prisoners on the basis of 204 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,000 their caste, but also prison officials. 205 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,520 Their understanding might have been like, OK, we wanted to just 206 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:23,000 segregate them because it is so difficult for us to handle them. 207 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,880 But think of the same scenario outside where we say that, OK, 208 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:29,760 in villages there are like conflicts happening. 209 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,200 So let us just say that somebody belonging to a Dalit community 210 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,640 cannot come out of the of the Dalit basti. 211 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,560 Somebody coming from the Savarna community cannot come out of the 212 00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:41,600 Savarna basti. That's not something that is 213 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,920 possible, right? There would be so much outrage 214 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,360 if that were to happen. So when we understand that it is 215 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,840 wrong in the space outside prison, how are we unable to 216 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:51,760 think of it? It can. 217 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,080 It is like it's actually atrocious to do something inside 218 00:11:54,080 --> 00:11:56,280 prison. Yeah, that's something that I I 219 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,040 wonder sometimes. How did it go unchallenged for 220 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,120 years according to you? Actually, I would sound a little 221 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,040 critical of the organizations which work on prison if if I 222 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,080 were to answer this question. You have like a lot of 223 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,440 organizations across the country working on prisons. 224 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:16,600 And these organizations are like are the ones with academic 225 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,560 rigor. They are the ones which have 226 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,520 permissions to go inside prison because those permissions are 227 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,000 given by, say, like the High Court or maybe the state 228 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,720 authorities or maybe in some cases the Supreme Court. 229 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,800 These are the ones who who have like very specialized 230 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:37,760 researchers and the campaigners working on the subject for many 231 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,800 years. They are the ones who also have 232 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,920 access to all these prison manuals and forget about prison 233 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:45,480 manual. They have access to prisoners. 234 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:47,200 They are the ones who are talking to prisoners. 235 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:50,080 When I actually came across this manual, I had spoken to some 236 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,000 people and then they said, yeah, we did see like a mention of 237 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:57,040 caste in the prison manual. And to my mind, like maybe it's 238 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,880 it's like a person because I'm a journalist or maybe because 239 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:02,840 somebody who has been writing from an anti cast perspective 240 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:04,200 for some time. Maybe that's the reason it 241 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,480 actually occurred to me. But somehow I just felt like 242 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,320 people who are working in human rights space for so long and 243 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,920 they have been reading this prison manual for day in and day 244 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:14,920 out. And they have the privilege of 245 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,320 actually going inside prison on a on a regular basis, much more 246 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,240 than you and I can actually as journalists can ever think of 247 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:25,440 accessing this space. Then how is that they did not 248 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,960 think of caste? My very simple understanding, in 249 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,160 a very blunt way if I were to put it, is because most of us 250 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:35,360 who are actually working in prison space also belong to 251 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:40,440 communities which will not be targeted and criminalized the 252 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,720 way the Bhaujan population actually gets targeted. 253 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,920 So caste is something that doesn't actually occur to us as 254 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,440 a important factor to be addressed. 255 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,000 Sukanya says that jails also have a safeguard provided by the 256 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,040 Constitution that should ensure that such practices don't take 257 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,400 place. However, that safeguard, which 258 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,720 is the judges and the court system, don't work very well in 259 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,520 this regard. Another thing is like when a 260 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,000 person is sent to prison, the person is no more in police 261 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,520 custody but in judicial custody. So it's a judiciary which is 262 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,640 actually supposed to be the guardians. 263 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,680 They are the ones who are actually the custodians of the 264 00:14:16,680 --> 00:14:19,160 person inside the prison. So their welfare is a 265 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,520 judiciary's responsibility. You have mechanism in place 266 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,200 where your judicial officers are supposed to actually go on 267 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:29,560 visits in the jail. But the practice is such that 268 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,520 your judges, your magistrates do go to jail. 269 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:35,800 They meet the Superintendent and along with the Superintendent, 270 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,560 they might actually do a recce or a visit of the entire jail. 271 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,280 So that the power dynamics also such that like any prisoner, it 272 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,520 were to actually speak about the grievances, they will never be 273 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,480 able to access that that that judicial officer who was 274 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,280 entering the prison space. It actually defies the whole 275 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,880 purpose of their visits. And one knows like how exactly 276 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,240 the state works. The state would really not want 277 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,960 to like think or apply itself and talk about human rights of 278 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,640 the prisoners. So the state is doing what it's 279 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:08,760 doing, but the check in balance that can be actually carried out 280 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,480 like by the judiciary or or by the civil society, even that is 281 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,440 failing because caste isn't looked at as a factor so 282 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,920 seriously or or it doesn't move people or it doesn't alarm 283 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:24,040 people as much as compared to maybe say some other kinds of 284 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,920 human rights violation which doesn't carry the baggage of 285 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,240 caste. Sukhane says that after her 286 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,000 reporting, she approached multiple organizations and 287 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,240 individuals to take up this issue before courts. 288 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:37,920 That didn't happen, though. Meanwhile, she kept reporting on 289 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,720 other aspects of jails that were problematic, including the 290 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,400 inherent myosin rules against certain tribes because they were 291 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,520 deemed criminal during colonial rule. 292 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,840 Nearly three years after she published her first report, she 293 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,080 explains why she decided to file a petition in the Supreme Court. 294 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,240 My lawyer, Disha Vadekar, who's also dear, dear friend. 295 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,800 So she and I would actually discuss about these things very 296 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,480 often. And she's primarily why this 297 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,640 entire petition even actually happened because the discussion 298 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,480 initially was like, OK, I'm gonna let her like there. 299 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,000 We'll just write a letter and we'll just like just do away 300 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,160 with that. But but like slowly we just 301 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,000 realized, OK, fine, we can actually find a way to file a 302 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,920 petition. So then we just like worked more 303 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,760 and more on the whole aspect of Vimukta Jathis. 304 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,760 And then we already covered aspects from my story like we 305 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:27,600 brought it out. And then we like actually looked 306 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,280 at the constitutional violations that can be looked at. 307 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,800 And then we we looked at like different sections that can be 308 00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,680 like mentioned in the petition. And then the petition was 309 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,880 finally shaped. So the petition was filed 310 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,800 finally only last year in December, so three years after 311 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:41,760 the after the story was first published. 312 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,360 The court has emphasized on the prisoner's right to dignity and 313 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,200 I think this is the beginning of the change. 314 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,280 The court has ordered the ending of such labour practices and how 315 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:58,520 hopeful are you that it will end them? 316 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,400 It speaks about like right to dignity, like Section 21, like 317 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,839 Justice Neva Chandra should actually spoke like at length in 318 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:10,079 the court about it. He also spoke at length about 319 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,200 how these practices are unconstitutional, are known to 320 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,920 us but they are in practice and for a judgment to be implemented 321 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:24,040 and to actually have it work in the prison, it takes like a 322 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,280 great deal of time. Today because certain favourable 323 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:34,000 order has been passed, we can't expect it to be implemented 324 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,320 tomorrow and day after for the entire practice of caste 325 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,720 discrimination, untouchability that is going on inside prison. 326 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,680 To just talk, it's difficult. It's something that's a big 327 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,880 task. The court has also acknowledged 328 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,720 this as to be a massive task and hence even when the case has 329 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,960 been finally disposed of, the court has actually said that now 330 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,440 we are converting this into a Suomoto petition now and it will 331 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,760 no more be called as Sukanya Shanta versus Union of India but 332 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,400 discrimination in prisons. They have actually gone about 333 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,600 expanding the ambit of the entire petition that I had 334 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,040 filed. Like in my petition, my focus 335 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:17,960 was entirely on say caste. The judges have now said that 336 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,040 OK, you caste is one factor that she is covered extensively in 337 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,240 her petition. But there are like so many more 338 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,760 discrimination which might have actually been missed out in the 339 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,680 petition or in the story. So let us just focus on those 340 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,120 things. So the court has also now pushed 341 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:38,280 the whole idea of keeping it as an open case where it is 342 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:43,680 actually given an invitation for people to come and and register 343 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,240 like as in like if there are like more such practices of 344 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,080 discrimination that is happening on the basis of gender, on the 345 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,600 basis of disability. So like these are the aspects 346 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,760 that needs to be covered is what the judges have understood as in 347 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,040 right to dignity is something that has been upheld. 348 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:06,520 But it will take a great deal of work and a long time for all our 349 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:08,840 mechanisms, like all our monitoring mechanisms, for our 350 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,360 states, for civil society, for the media, all of it to actually 351 00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:15,640 work in tandem to ensure that the rights are protected. 352 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:19,240 But despite a verdict in her favour and the problems that 353 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,760 come due to the noting of prisoners caste, Sukanya says 354 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,040 she will be appealing against one aspect of the Supreme 355 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,800 Court's verdict. But one thing that has actually 356 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,280 come up in the judgement which was not a part of a prayer and 357 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:38,240 we think will actually do a lot more injustice to the whole 358 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:43,160 prison discourse and the prisoners is the court's order 359 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:48,080 which says that the caste column in the prison register should be 360 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,600 removed. Now, if you remove the caste 361 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:55,920 column from the prison register, that means your NCRB data will 362 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,760 not have any mention of caste or religion in the data. 363 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,560 So the prison statistics of India which actually comes out 364 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,280 with data every year will not have any information because 365 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,160 that is the only place where the data is collected. 366 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,440 When I go to the prison and I give like all my details, one of 367 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,000 the detail that is collected is about my caste identity. 368 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,960 It's the most unscientific way that it, that it is done. 369 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,520 They, your prison official will be sitting there and will ask 370 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,320 you like which is which cars do you belong to? 371 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,360 And then you say like I am from a higher caste, lower cost Dalit 372 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:29,240 caste, whatever word I use like a local lingo, whatever their 373 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,240 understanding is a ticket. But something we have, we have 374 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,360 even if it is in the most unscientific way it is 375 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:36,840 collected. We still have some way of 376 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,600 actually collecting this information and that's the only 377 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,000 information we have for a policy makers to actually work. 378 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,080 That is only information that we have to talk about over a 379 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,760 presentation of the Bhaujan caste or Muslims inside prison. 380 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:51,920 And this has come after a lot of efforts. 381 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,720 Like in 2018, if I'm not mistaken, the NCRB data had 382 00:20:55,720 --> 00:21:00,520 stopped collecting the caste information, at least giving it 383 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,960 out in the NCRB data. Then people who are working in 384 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,960 prisons insisted that like, no, you have to put the data. 385 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,000 And then after that, again, the data has been given out. 386 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,240 So if the highest court has actually come up with this order 387 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,640 and the state has a tendency of not wanting to collect this data 388 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,160 anyway, they would, they would actually implement this one 389 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:19,720 particular thing before anything else. 390 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,520 Like me, along with my lawyers are trying to understand what is 391 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:26,880 the best way of bringing this to the court's notice and stopping 392 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,720 this before it actually gets implemented. 393 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,720 Some states have done away with the caste based occupation in 394 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,680 prisons. How did they bring the changes? 395 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:40,200 Can it be an ideal manual for other states? 396 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,800 Actually, no, it can't be an ideal manual because so this 397 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,760 change happened soon after the story was reported. 398 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:52,320 So when we put out a story in 2020, Rajasthan was the first 399 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:55,200 one they had to do it because the court actually directed them 400 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,240 to do it. So the moment that happened, a 401 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:02,520 few states which were anyway in the process of amending their 402 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:08,480 present manuals and they also like just went about removing 403 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:13,120 the mention of all those things that I had flagged in my story. 404 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,840 But like I was not able to flag everything in my story. 405 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,640 Like I was, I was able to say like look at the cars with labor 406 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,200 practice, but I had missed out on the on the mention of quote 407 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,400 UN quote habitual offenders or the wandering tribes as 408 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,480 mentioned in some of the states. So because I had missed it, 409 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,040 these states which actually amended their prison manual, 410 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,400 they also missed it. So it was not like something 411 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,440 that they had invested themselves and that realized, 412 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,760 OK, fine, we have a problem in our manual. 413 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,080 So let us just like completely like go through an overhaul. 414 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:46,000 That's not what they did. It was mostly like a patchwork 415 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,640 done there. Like OK, like something has been 416 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:49,480 pointed to us, let us just correct it. 417 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,280 In fact, the 2016 model, the model prison manual, which the 418 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,440 Central Home Department actually takes pride in and says that 419 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,120 every state should follow this model prison manual. 420 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:04,240 And that is how our prisons will actually have then will be taken 421 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,840 care of the rights of all the prisoners. 422 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,440 That itself is flawed. Like there are like so many 423 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,040 inherent biases within that model prison manual, which was 424 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,920 pointed out in our rotation. And the court has actually asked 425 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,320 for the model prison manual also to to correct all the problems 426 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:22,760 in the prison manuals. We don't really have a model 427 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,280 right now. I think the the Union department 428 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,280 actually does this type of type of work and then comes up with 429 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,120 the model and maybe that can actually then be implemented in 430 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:36,160 other prisons in other states. You just said that the central 431 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:41,240 government's sort of ideal model prison law itself was flawed. 432 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:48,080 What possibly explains that? The prison manual is actually 433 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,120 handled by this one department called the Bureau of Police 434 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:55,680 Research and Development. So it is a bunch of IPS 435 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,680 officers, bunch of prison officials, they are the ones who 436 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:02,040 have drafted the model prison manual. 437 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:06,520 This model prison manual is drafted from a police, from a 438 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,680 state authorities perspective, not from the prisoner's 439 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,680 perspective. While they have actually done 440 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,560 away with mention of say caste, they have nothing to talk about 441 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,560 say, presence of dry latrine in prisons. 442 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,480 Like why do you have dry latrine in prisons still when it is 443 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,440 already prohibited under the Manual Scavenging Act? 444 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:28,440 And if they exist, then who are the ones who are cleaning it? 445 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,400 It uses the word habitual offender just like that without 446 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,240 even like actually understanding or giving an understanding of 447 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:37,800 what it means. Who are these habitual 448 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,600 offenders? It actually further allows other 449 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:45,640 states to then think or assume that their understanding of 450 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,240 habitual offenders is correct and then they continue with it. 451 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,640 The whole understanding of like prison reformation is something 452 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,120 that the Union government keeps talking every few years and 453 00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:57,240 every few years there will be like some human rights 454 00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:59,600 organization which will talk about, OK, prison needs like 455 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,920 some kind of reformation, some kind of overall has to happen 456 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,680 there. So they will keep doing that. 457 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,600 That activity continues, but that activity, the main 458 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,360 stakeholder or which is the incarcerated person is 459 00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:15,240 completely missing from that. So it's like the people from 460 00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:18,920 outside the prison are deciding the fate of people from inside 461 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,120 prison. Sukanya says that jails and 462 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:24,920 prisons are unique places where everything is rationed and no 463 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,000 one gets anything more than what is deemed necessary, whether 464 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,840 they're a convict or an undertrial. 465 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:33,120 It's also a system that no one in the outside world seems to 466 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:36,600 care about, and no one represents inmates in parliament 467 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,560 or state assemblies. Sukanya says that as a result, 468 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,880 there's a lot that's wrong with how Indian jails are run. 469 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,760 Every every individual actually has like a space measured for 470 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,120 them to be inside the prison. It's calculated like how like 471 00:25:51,120 --> 00:25:53,800 how tall the person is and this much space can be allotted to an 472 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,240 individual. Similarly the food is actually 473 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:57,560 weighed and given to the prisoner. 474 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,360 So if you have a space where the capacity of a prison space is 475 00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:06,680 only to accommodate say 1000 prisoner and but in that prison 476 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:10,640 instead of 1000, there are 4000 people who are actually staying, 477 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:14,040 are forced to stay. That means in a space which is 478 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,560 already so crammed up, you have 4 times more people like 479 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,680 actually using that space. And the resource prison budget, 480 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,800 if you look at it, it has not seen any kind of improvement in 481 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,000 many years. If there are like some 4000 482 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,800 prisoners and you have only one resident, like a medical officer 483 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,440 who actually is assigned that job. 484 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,760 So that person is also overworked and also 485 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,720 disinterested and also has absolutely no mechanism to keep 486 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,240 a check on him. So then he is like acting 487 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,640 absolutely disinterested and he's not like actually carrying 488 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,720 on with the duty. The system is completely in 489 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,240 shambles. The criminal justice system is 490 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,320 often cited as a system in which merely having to deal with it is 491 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,400 a punishment for most people. Despite the Supreme Court 492 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,320 repeatedly saying that bail should be the norm, thousands of 493 00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,400 under trials spend months or years in jail. 494 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,400 Sometimes they even spend the length of a potential sentence 495 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:04,640 in jail even before their trial is completed. 496 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:08,560 Sukanya Shanta says jails are a space where the state continues 497 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:13,040 to act with impunity and with no regard for people's rights. 498 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,080 The experiences that prisoners have actually like, shared over 499 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,920 years, I've realized that that is 1 space where the state is 500 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,360 able to do whatever they feel they can do. 501 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,480 And there is very little that has been questioned and very few 502 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,920 of us are actually feeling appalled when things like when 503 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,480 they could do that to like say, father stands for me. 504 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:36,720 Like there was so much media attention in that case. 505 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:38,040 There was like so much human cry. 506 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:39,720 There was a pending case in the High Court. 507 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,120 So it was like almost like a High Court monitored case, but 508 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,320 still when it came to giving him a small sipper, like he was 509 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:51,000 denied that a man who was so fragile, so, so like actually 510 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,920 almost at the fag at the end of his life, he was imprisoned and 511 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,160 he was kept there during COVID and and he passed away. 512 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,440 Any of them like, like, do they deserve such kind of treatment? 513 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,080 Of course not. Law says that a person can be 514 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,840 punished only once for a crime, but there's a ongoing repeated 515 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,760 punishment that keeps continuing inside prison space. 516 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,960 Today's episode was produced by Jayaraj Singh and Sahil Gupta. 517 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,320 For a daily spotlight on people, ideas and stories that matter, 518 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,040 subscribe to us where available on the Times of India website, 519 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,000 Spotify, Apple, Amazon or wherever else you get your 520 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,760 podcasts. For any new steps of feedback, 521 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,560 mail me at arun.george@timesgroup.com.