1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,080 From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:20,140 Times of India podcast. Ratings agency Moody's recently 3 00:00:20,140 --> 00:00:23,340 kept its credit rating of India constant and said it believes 4 00:00:23,340 --> 00:00:25,140 India's economy would remain stable. 5 00:00:25,740 --> 00:00:29,020 The agency also said that it expects India's economic growth 6 00:00:29,020 --> 00:00:32,100 to outpace all other G20 economies through at least the 7 00:00:32,100 --> 00:00:34,740 next two years. And this growth would be driven 8 00:00:34,740 --> 00:00:38,340 by domestic demand. However, the ratings agency had 9 00:00:38,340 --> 00:00:40,340 a word of caution as well for investors. 10 00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:44,100 Moody said that the curtailment of civil society and political 11 00:00:44,100 --> 00:00:47,820 dissent, compounded by rising sectarian tensions, support a 12 00:00:47,820 --> 00:00:50,620 weaker assessment of political risks and the quality of 13 00:00:50,620 --> 00:00:53,860 institutions. This assessment came just around 14 00:00:53,860 --> 00:00:57,140 a week after a group of around 20 academics linked to IIM 15 00:00:57,140 --> 00:00:59,860 Bangalore, short of a letter to India's corporate world. 16 00:01:00,420 --> 00:01:03,180 Some of the signatories to the letter were retired, others are 17 00:01:03,180 --> 00:01:06,580 still teachers at the institute. The faculty members were clear 18 00:01:06,700 --> 00:01:09,780 that they had written the letter in a personal capacity and they 19 00:01:09,780 --> 00:01:13,020 had done it to bring an issue to the attention of the corporate 20 00:01:13,020 --> 00:01:15,060 world. The letter pointed to the rise 21 00:01:15,060 --> 00:01:17,940 in hate speech and violence targeting certain groups. 22 00:01:18,300 --> 00:01:21,020 In the letter, the academics wrote that corporate India 23 00:01:21,020 --> 00:01:23,940 should be worried since it points to an increasing risk of 24 00:01:23,940 --> 00:01:27,260 violence in the country and in the worst case, possibly a 25 00:01:27,260 --> 00:01:29,720 genocide. They also had some suggestions 26 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,440 for the corporate world. They said corporate funding 27 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,680 should be stopped to media and social media outlets that 28 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:38,440 transmit hate speech. They urged corporate India to 29 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,680 foster more inclusive workplaces. 30 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,480 And they asked the business community to raise their voices 31 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,960 in support of greater fraternity in the country. 32 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,840 One of the signatories to the letters, Prateek Raj, an 33 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,560 assistant professor at the institute. 34 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,600 In today's episode, he's in conversation with my colleague 35 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,880 Alka Dupkar about the letter and the risk of letting hate speech 36 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,170 become acceptable. The professor of strategy at IIM 37 00:02:00,170 --> 00:02:03,370 Bangalore, who is an IIT graduate and holds a PhD from 38 00:02:03,370 --> 00:02:07,250 University College London, talks about how hate speech can hit 39 00:02:07,250 --> 00:02:10,530 India's grand economic dreams. Pratik Raj also talks about the 40 00:02:10,530 --> 00:02:14,450 worst case scenarios possible and why he still holds out hope 41 00:02:14,450 --> 00:02:17,050 for India. Alka started by asking Pratik 42 00:02:17,050 --> 00:02:21,090 Raj about the letter he is a signatory to and what inspired 43 00:02:21,090 --> 00:02:23,890 it. So you have Co wrote this 44 00:02:23,890 --> 00:02:26,250 letter. Tell us about the process of 45 00:02:26,250 --> 00:02:30,080 writing such open letters. What discussions took place 46 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:32,400 which inspired writing these letters? 47 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,080 There was no plan per se, of writing a letter, and neither is 48 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,200 it the case that we are constantly looking for 49 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:44,360 opportunities to write a letter or anything of that sort. 50 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,800 It's just that that particular week proceeding when we wrote 51 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,610 the letter. Was particularly very 52 00:02:52,610 --> 00:02:58,490 distressing with a lot of issues of violence occurring in the 53 00:02:58,490 --> 00:03:00,930 news. There was the Manipur violence, 54 00:03:00,930 --> 00:03:08,130 there was shootings in a Jaipur train and then violence began in 55 00:03:08,130 --> 00:03:11,450 Haryana. So this all seemed very 56 00:03:11,450 --> 00:03:15,530 distressing and that's when the idea came that. 57 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,080 We can't be just silent spectators to everything. 58 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:24,720 Much of this was being instigated by a certain kind of 59 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:29,880 toxic conversation that we are having in the public discourse, 60 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,760 not just in the media, which is the mainstream media, but also 61 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:36,760 in the social media. And I would say social media is 62 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:41,160 a bigger culprit here. So we thought that where is this 63 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,590 problem really stemming from? It is coming from the fact that 64 00:03:44,790 --> 00:03:50,670 this kind of visceral news gets eyeballs and then people want to 65 00:03:50,950 --> 00:03:55,670 dish this kind of stuff more out so that they can then monetize 66 00:03:55,670 --> 00:03:58,990 this kind of content. And that is the business model. 67 00:03:59,430 --> 00:04:04,350 So that's how the idea emerged that we need to go to the root 68 00:04:04,350 --> 00:04:07,990 of the problem, which is. Monetization of this kind of 69 00:04:07,990 --> 00:04:12,070 content, asking corporates to do something about it, or to think 70 00:04:12,070 --> 00:04:16,350 about the externalities or the consequences of where their 71 00:04:16,350 --> 00:04:19,589 money goes in advertising. Initially, the proposal came 72 00:04:19,589 --> 00:04:23,710 from me that we should probably write a letter to corporate 73 00:04:23,710 --> 00:04:26,350 India. So I wrote the first draft of it 74 00:04:26,950 --> 00:04:30,070 and then I shared with some of my colleagues who gave 75 00:04:30,070 --> 00:04:34,840 recommendations or edits to it. Then we shared it with the rest 76 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,120 of the faculty members and requested anyone interested to 77 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,160 join. When we thought about who should 78 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,880 be signing the letter, we just felt that faculty members who 79 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:49,240 have signed are enough to make the point because this is a kind 80 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,360 of an academic issue. Also that we as academics have 81 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,200 direct relations with corporate India. 82 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:59,480 So we are addressing this issue to them and we just felt that we 83 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,600 don't need to involve students in this. 84 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:07,120 The letter also points out that the risk of genocide in India is 85 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,720 no longer close to 0 and urges corporate India to use its voice 86 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,800 to rise up against hate and stand up for fraternity. 87 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,840 You're a professor of strategy and clearly you can see what is 88 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:24,120 happening in India politically. How fast are we moving towards 89 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:29,000 disastrous situation? I'm an economic historian also. 90 00:05:29,570 --> 00:05:33,850 Alka So I've studied marketplace for ideas for a long time. 91 00:05:33,850 --> 00:05:41,370 So my PhD thesis was on studying the nature of content just 92 00:05:41,370 --> 00:05:45,770 immediately after the printing press was invented in the 15th 93 00:05:45,770 --> 00:05:49,690 century. And I've studied how lithography 94 00:05:49,690 --> 00:05:53,170 impacted the nature of conversations in India and Asian 95 00:05:53,170 --> 00:05:56,690 societies. I studied quite a bit on the 96 00:05:56,690 --> 00:05:58,930 nature of propaganda in Nazi Germany. 97 00:05:59,490 --> 00:06:02,890 So I've been looking at this kind of content for a while now. 98 00:06:02,970 --> 00:06:06,250 It's not easy to tell how fast or slow we are moving in the 99 00:06:06,250 --> 00:06:10,810 direction of disaster. The way this works is that in 100 00:06:10,810 --> 00:06:14,530 all likelihood, this kind of hate speech will eventually die 101 00:06:14,530 --> 00:06:20,850 down and will be kind of superseded by a more healthier 102 00:06:20,850 --> 00:06:25,000 conversation over time. There are phases of really 103 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,120 negative conversation that happen in all societies. 104 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,400 If you remember just a few years ago US was having very toxic 105 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:38,000 conversation with Donald Trump as president against minorities 106 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,080 promoting racism, spreading misinformation about COVID, but 107 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:47,320 then it eventually died down. However, although on an average 108 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,000 these issues will eventually die down. 109 00:06:50,630 --> 00:06:55,430 But really bad situations can also emerge, not because of some 110 00:06:55,430 --> 00:07:00,150 linear process, but because some sort of a disaster or mishap 111 00:07:00,150 --> 00:07:04,150 happens which triggers a certain kind of sensationalism, or a 112 00:07:04,150 --> 00:07:06,670 rumor, or a certain kind of hate. 113 00:07:07,030 --> 00:07:10,750 And that can snowball into a much more dangerous situation, 114 00:07:11,070 --> 00:07:13,270 although the probability of such a kind of. 115 00:07:14,180 --> 00:07:18,260 Violent kind of a conflict is very small, and it is always 116 00:07:18,260 --> 00:07:20,620 small. But the nature of hate speech is 117 00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:24,260 it creates a kind of fertile ground that even those kinds of 118 00:07:24,260 --> 00:07:26,460 rare events can eventually happen. 119 00:07:26,620 --> 00:07:30,620 They are not easy to predict, but some random occurrence of 120 00:07:30,620 --> 00:07:37,780 something can give rise to it. So the World War 2 eventually 121 00:07:37,780 --> 00:07:42,420 triggered A Holocaust. Similarly, plague in. 122 00:07:43,050 --> 00:07:47,730 Europe in the 14th century created environment for murder 123 00:07:47,730 --> 00:07:52,730 of Jews in Europe. So how does hate speech 124 00:07:53,050 --> 00:07:56,770 translate to violence is not a linear process. 125 00:07:58,290 --> 00:08:01,210 So the letter not only highlights the problem, but 126 00:08:01,290 --> 00:08:05,570 gives a four prong approach to the corporate defund hate 127 00:08:05,570 --> 00:08:09,730 speech, then asking them to stop funding hate and support 128 00:08:09,730 --> 00:08:13,600 responsible stakeholders. Curate A welcoming work culture 129 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,520 and use their voice for fraternity. 130 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:21,280 My question is, is it possible with the majoritarian political 131 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,040 environment? I think that a lot of times we 132 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,600 think of hate speech and the situation in a very India 133 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:33,240 specific lens when we should realize that the problem of hate 134 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:38,679 speech and misinformation is also common in many parts of the 135 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,179 world. Many Asian countries are having 136 00:08:41,179 --> 00:08:44,540 populist movements and we need to understand that this is a 137 00:08:44,540 --> 00:08:47,060 global problem. This is not India specific 138 00:08:47,060 --> 00:08:50,580 political economy problem and partly what has happened over 139 00:08:50,580 --> 00:08:55,220 the last few one decade or so with the rise of social media is 140 00:08:55,220 --> 00:08:59,060 that bundled newspapers, a bundle of information is no 141 00:08:59,060 --> 00:09:02,820 longer being received by people. So all that we consume is 142 00:09:02,940 --> 00:09:05,850 individual articles. And because we consume 143 00:09:05,850 --> 00:09:08,490 individual articles, we are mostly consuming sensational 144 00:09:08,490 --> 00:09:11,730 articles. And as a consequence, people are 145 00:09:12,050 --> 00:09:17,570 receiving more polarized, more sensational, more visceral, more 146 00:09:17,570 --> 00:09:21,090 emotive kind of news in place of what I would call more 147 00:09:21,090 --> 00:09:26,290 responsible journalism. So it's not really about whether 148 00:09:26,290 --> 00:09:30,610 it's possible in this environment for responsible 149 00:09:30,610 --> 00:09:34,330 journalism to be funded. What is more important is that. 150 00:09:34,850 --> 00:09:38,970 We understand the crisis and the roots of the crisis and as 151 00:09:38,970 --> 00:09:43,410 corporate India, which is the primary funder of the Fourth 152 00:09:43,450 --> 00:09:47,050 estate, which is true everywhere, to think through of 153 00:09:47,050 --> 00:09:48,890 how it can go about doing things. 154 00:09:50,730 --> 00:09:54,130 My next question is about media organization. 155 00:09:54,410 --> 00:09:59,010 So in this question I really want you to talk about the 156 00:09:59,010 --> 00:10:02,290 solutions you are offering to the corporate in. 157 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:08,440 So we want, just like for example today every 158 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,840 organization, any corporate organization thinks about 159 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,320 whether they are funding pollution or environmental 160 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,680 sustainability. It's a kind of a standard 161 00:10:18,680 --> 00:10:21,800 question that we all have in our minds when we are thinking about 162 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,720 where our money is going. The same way we have to ask a 163 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,960 similar question that when we are funding information, is that 164 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,320 information good and responsible journalism? 165 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:40,440 Or is it hateful or uninformed sensationalism and punditry? 166 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:46,680 And if it's latter, somebody should be responsible for saying 167 00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:49,480 that we will or we will not support that kind of content. 168 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,360 But people need to be asked that question. 169 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,880 That check and balance within corporate India is going to go a 170 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,920 long way in fixing the problem in my view. 171 00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:04,430 You have also spoke about your rate of welcoming work culture. 172 00:11:04,670 --> 00:11:08,270 So what do you mean when you offer that solution to corporate 173 00:11:08,270 --> 00:11:11,790 India? Organizations can be very siloed 174 00:11:12,190 --> 00:11:15,310 and they can become echo chambers where people are 175 00:11:15,310 --> 00:11:19,590 talking about work and then they are making jokes of some kind 176 00:11:20,190 --> 00:11:22,670 which can be insensitive to some set of people. 177 00:11:22,670 --> 00:11:25,110 This can be sexist jokes. This can be racist jokes. 178 00:11:25,110 --> 00:11:27,200 This can be. Dastest jokes. 179 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,040 These can be homophobic jokes, and not just jokes, but 180 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,560 conversations. What I've noticed is that it's 181 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:36,760 not out of malice that people make these kinds of statements 182 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:39,800 and create a sort of a toxic work environment for people. 183 00:11:40,640 --> 00:11:44,240 Often it's just a lack of awareness that people do not 184 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:49,160 know better and merely informing people that you have to be 185 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:53,080 sensitive of who all is there in your organization and what kind 186 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:54,520 of conversations you should have. 187 00:11:55,260 --> 00:11:59,580 Can really go a long way in improving the environment 188 00:11:59,780 --> 00:12:03,340 because people spend so much time in a workplace environment 189 00:12:03,660 --> 00:12:07,300 and talking to their colleagues. Merely this kind of an awareness 190 00:12:07,620 --> 00:12:11,580 can really make people sensitized to the kind of 191 00:12:11,580 --> 00:12:15,620 content they might be consuming and sharing and create a much 192 00:12:15,620 --> 00:12:19,940 better environment for people. So I don't think that people are 193 00:12:20,220 --> 00:12:22,780 inherently malicious or hateful. It's just. 194 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,960 People are not thinking about what's going on, and just like 195 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:30,800 people are not wondering about what kind of pollutants might be 196 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,760 there in the food dates, they're also not thinking about the 197 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,400 consequences of the kind of content they're consuming and 198 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,520 sharing with people. And so we need to create 199 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:44,120 awareness about it. In this letter, you have cited 200 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,600 around 15 news reports and also held the media organizations 201 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,040 responsible for spreading misinformation. 202 00:12:51,730 --> 00:12:56,330 How is hate being amplified? So, you know, I think what 203 00:12:56,330 --> 00:13:00,370 happens is that Once Upon a time I would talk about just myself. 204 00:13:00,610 --> 00:13:07,130 Many types of content which were directly hateful towards a 205 00:13:07,130 --> 00:13:11,090 particular group of people would have been in a complete no, no 206 00:13:11,090 --> 00:13:16,570 or a taboo to share, right. But as it becomes more and more 207 00:13:16,570 --> 00:13:20,850 common to talk in a way that demonizes groups of people. 208 00:13:21,220 --> 00:13:24,620 That kind of conversation becomes normalized, and people 209 00:13:24,620 --> 00:13:26,620 start to think this is normal, to have that kind of 210 00:13:26,620 --> 00:13:30,540 conversation. Slowly, the situation shifts to 211 00:13:30,540 --> 00:13:35,860 a more hateful normal than what it used to be. 212 00:13:36,220 --> 00:13:39,900 What's gonna happen is I saw the news, I found it to be very 213 00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:42,860 wrong and appalling that things are being discussed in this way. 214 00:13:43,100 --> 00:13:47,180 But because I'm being exposed to it for so long, over time I 215 00:13:47,180 --> 00:13:51,720 become normalized to it. And I find it to be OK. 216 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,840 I think of it as just another opinion, and everybody is free 217 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,040 to have an opinion of their own. But the question is not whether 218 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,080 you can hold or not hold an opinion. 219 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,520 The question is, should that kind of an opinion be discussed 220 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:08,240 in mainstream prime time news? You have been also emphasizing 221 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,680 the difference between political activism and academic 222 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:14,560 independence. What would you like to say to 223 00:14:14,560 --> 00:14:17,640 those who see your letter such political activism? 224 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:24,160 When I joined IMD, I signed an oath to the Constitution of 225 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,800 India and I think liberty, equality and solidarity are 226 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,960 three things which are essential to the Indian Constitution. 227 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,800 Some oath bound to raise my voice if in case I feel 228 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:42,440 genuinely that the solidarity in this country is under threat, if 229 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,280 I genuinely believe that solidarity in this country is 230 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,700 threatened. It is my both bound duty to 231 00:14:47,700 --> 00:14:52,340 speak up and I'm not having any allegiance to anything else 232 00:14:52,340 --> 00:14:53,620 other than the Constitution of India. 233 00:14:53,940 --> 00:14:57,700 I believe that this is not at all political activism or 234 00:14:57,700 --> 00:15:01,540 anything. It's my fundamental duty as a 235 00:15:01,540 --> 00:15:06,700 government employee of India, where I am both bound to serve 236 00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:11,140 the constitution of the country. It's been almost a week since 237 00:15:11,140 --> 00:15:14,630 you released the letter. Are you satisfied with the reach 238 00:15:14,630 --> 00:15:17,950 and attention of it? Any objection or support from 239 00:15:17,950 --> 00:15:20,870 the institute? No, not at all. 240 00:15:20,870 --> 00:15:24,270 I think the media has covered it quite elaborately. 241 00:15:24,830 --> 00:15:28,950 What I would have really liked is if in case people from 242 00:15:28,950 --> 00:15:32,020 corporate India had. Probably. 243 00:15:32,660 --> 00:15:35,460 I mean, I don't know how many people in corporate India have 244 00:15:35,460 --> 00:15:37,780 read it. I did receive some messages from 245 00:15:37,780 --> 00:15:40,700 people from corporate India. It is mostly mainstream 246 00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:42,660 newspapers which have carried this news, which is great. 247 00:15:42,660 --> 00:15:46,780 But I have not seen coverage in more business kind of news 248 00:15:47,580 --> 00:15:51,260 outlets, which is where I feel that the conversation should be. 249 00:15:51,580 --> 00:15:55,270 I do wonder whether. Such letter can make an impact 250 00:15:55,270 --> 00:15:57,630 with corporate India. Can it shape conversation and 251 00:15:57,630 --> 00:16:00,150 which is where? What matters is that we have 252 00:16:00,150 --> 00:16:02,750 follow up conversations like this that I'm having with you 253 00:16:03,030 --> 00:16:05,390 that is not a one time instance that. 254 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,000 We send that letter, it was in news for a day and then we 255 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,480 forgot about it. We need to have a regular 256 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,720 conversation about this question because the tough question, 257 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,000 people see that this is an issue, but for various sets of 258 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,720 reasons, because everybody thinks, well, I have my job to 259 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,960 do and this is not my job, it is somebody else's job. 260 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,360 We kind of give up on this conversation and then things 261 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,790 remain business as usual. I think it's also important that 262 00:16:30,950 --> 00:16:32,790 this is about media organizations. 263 00:16:32,990 --> 00:16:34,710 This is about the health of the country. 264 00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:38,230 And if tomorrow some sort of a negative mishap happens, 265 00:16:38,590 --> 00:16:44,310 journalists who sensationalized news will be asked what were you 266 00:16:44,310 --> 00:16:46,790 doing at this time? We would be asked what were you 267 00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:48,710 doing in this time. Corporate India will be asked 268 00:16:48,710 --> 00:16:50,350 whatever you do doing in this time. 269 00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:54,870 And this is not a game. So corporate India, media 270 00:16:54,870 --> 00:16:56,550 organizations need to think about it. 271 00:16:56,710 --> 00:16:58,390 That's the real impact that will happen. 272 00:16:58,850 --> 00:17:01,890 If a few media organizations just think that, OK, let's be a 273 00:17:01,890 --> 00:17:03,730 little bit more responsible than before. 274 00:17:05,490 --> 00:17:09,609 So don't you and your colleagues fear professional setbacks for 275 00:17:09,609 --> 00:17:14,970 indulging in such activities? At least I don't because this is 276 00:17:14,970 --> 00:17:19,530 my area of work that I study marketplace for ideas. 277 00:17:20,010 --> 00:17:23,490 So I would say that, at least in an international setting, I 278 00:17:23,490 --> 00:17:26,770 would be damned if I don't do this, because it's kind of my 279 00:17:26,770 --> 00:17:30,890 job to say things. When things seem to not be 280 00:17:30,890 --> 00:17:35,290 appearing to be healthy, it's like saying that an 281 00:17:35,290 --> 00:17:38,930 epidemiologist should not raise an alarm if in case they see 282 00:17:38,930 --> 00:17:41,010 that there is a pandemic on the brink. 283 00:17:41,730 --> 00:17:44,090 So it's depending on my professional responsibility to 284 00:17:44,090 --> 00:17:50,290 do this, and I don't really care about people who are too scared, 285 00:17:50,330 --> 00:17:52,730 so I don't work on egg shells. I have not thought about this 286 00:17:52,730 --> 00:17:54,770 question. The honest answer is this. 287 00:17:56,260 --> 00:17:59,620 Can you explain one thing that how can hate speech and 288 00:17:59,860 --> 00:18:04,140 resultant disturbance disrupt India's run to become of 289 00:18:04,140 --> 00:18:09,060 hydrillian economy tree? So I talk about this in a 290 00:18:09,060 --> 00:18:12,660 different place that I feel that the political economy of South 291 00:18:12,660 --> 00:18:16,780 India is very different from North India and personally my 292 00:18:16,780 --> 00:18:21,540 view is that the threat of hate speech and it destabilizing. 293 00:18:22,100 --> 00:18:25,700 An economic environment of India is a bigger issue in North India 294 00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:31,060 than in South India. So in my view, political economy 295 00:18:31,060 --> 00:18:34,900 of South India is quite healthy. It will go around doing its 296 00:18:34,900 --> 00:18:36,540 thing. If you understand that a lot of 297 00:18:36,540 --> 00:18:40,260 times this kind of hate speech resolve ends up in violence 298 00:18:40,260 --> 00:18:43,260 because there are a lot of unemployed people who are having 299 00:18:43,260 --> 00:18:48,020 the time to think about issues that are trivial in a broader 300 00:18:48,020 --> 00:18:51,180 context and my perspective is that. 301 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,960 Young S Indians are not like this, and I'm a North Indian 302 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,200 myself. They are busy working and busy 303 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,840 building an economy, serving the service and manufacturing sector 304 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:06,280 and they are going to be fine and they're not going to be 305 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,120 affected by this problem. This problem is going to be be a 306 00:19:10,120 --> 00:19:14,960 bigger issue in North India, in my opinion, where economic 307 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:19,560 growth has not taken off at the same scale that it has in South 308 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,670 and West India. And the problem is that if it 309 00:19:22,670 --> 00:19:25,390 doesn't take off, and instead this kind of a culture of 310 00:19:25,670 --> 00:19:28,470 violence and lynching and people sitting and hating on each 311 00:19:28,470 --> 00:19:31,510 other's communities, that's the kind of culture it emerges. 312 00:19:31,710 --> 00:19:34,310 Then that region will completely stunt. 313 00:19:34,550 --> 00:19:37,790 So $5 trillion economy? Sure, India will still have a $5 314 00:19:37,790 --> 00:19:39,950 trillion economy or even $10 trillion economy. 315 00:19:39,950 --> 00:19:42,390 The only thing is all that growth and development will 316 00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:45,630 happen in South and West India and North India will completely 317 00:19:45,630 --> 00:19:49,920 be out of that growth journey. And as a North Indian, as a 318 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:55,480 Bihari, that worries me or not. After looking at the Manipur 319 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:59,440 violence, how the government responded, then the shooting in 320 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,280 a moving train and many such incidents, many feel that we 321 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:08,840 have reached a point of polarization and hatred where 322 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,280 there is no return, but you still have hopes. 323 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:16,060 Where does that hope comes from? No. 324 00:20:16,060 --> 00:20:18,460 Well, this hope comes from the fact that India is the only 325 00:20:18,460 --> 00:20:21,380 multicultural liberal democracy in the world. 326 00:20:21,660 --> 00:20:27,020 Hate speech is not an India only phenomena, it's a phenomena. 327 00:20:27,020 --> 00:20:30,380 In the US it's a phenomena. In Europe, it's a phenomena in 328 00:20:30,380 --> 00:20:33,340 most countries of the world today because of, as we 329 00:20:33,340 --> 00:20:38,060 discussed, the breakdown in the business model of journalism and 330 00:20:38,060 --> 00:20:40,580 news. Given the diversity of this 331 00:20:40,580 --> 00:20:45,240 country and the kind of hate environment that exists 332 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,360 globally, things could have been much worse actually, if this was 333 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,920 any other country. But because India is an 334 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:56,000 intrinsically diverse and intrinsically tolerant nation, 335 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:02,040 we have been able to resist just merely because of not like some 336 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,560 active resistance, but merely because who we are. 337 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:10,980 We have been able to not slide that back far as any other 338 00:21:10,980 --> 00:21:14,100 country, including the United States would have had it been in 339 00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:18,140 a similar kind of situation where it was a country of 340 00:21:18,420 --> 00:21:21,260 multitude of languages and multitude of religions and 341 00:21:21,260 --> 00:21:26,660 ethnicities etc etc. So my faith is that India has 342 00:21:26,740 --> 00:21:31,740 always been a tolerant, multicultural society where 343 00:21:32,140 --> 00:21:34,980 tolerance is intrinsic to our culture. 344 00:21:35,420 --> 00:21:40,380 So I would love if in case all these stories, 20 years down the 345 00:21:40,380 --> 00:21:43,300 line, people will come and say, oh, you guys were alarmists 346 00:21:43,300 --> 00:21:46,980 about this and nothing happened. I'll be very, very happy if that 347 00:21:46,980 --> 00:21:48,580 happens. And that goes back to the 348 00:21:48,580 --> 00:21:52,380 question of how soon or do you think things will go bad. 349 00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:55,180 It's all probabilistic. There is a slight probability 350 00:21:55,180 --> 00:22:00,060 that things will go really bad, but I still believe that a large 351 00:22:00,060 --> 00:22:02,540 probability is that we'll be able to overcome this. 352 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,800 And why do I also believe it more now is Because if this was 353 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,920 not the case, you know, 30 odd media channels would not have 354 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:13,080 covered this issue. And so much of positive response 355 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:16,760 to our letter would not have come by had it not been the case 356 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:20,920 that the DNA of this country is tolerant and multicultural, 357 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:25,880 which is not the case for say, Germany in the 1930s and 40s. 358 00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:30,150 So I think that is something that gives me hope that we are a 359 00:22:30,150 --> 00:22:33,270 fundamentally different nation and that's something that we 360 00:22:33,270 --> 00:22:36,270 should always remember and be proud of as a country. 361 00:22:37,630 --> 00:22:41,350 Including social media influencers, there is a wave of 362 00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:45,870 young entrepreneurship in India. Majority of them either prefer 363 00:22:45,870 --> 00:22:49,110 silence or support those who are in power. 364 00:22:49,550 --> 00:22:53,350 So the intimidation is working perfectly. 365 00:22:53,470 --> 00:22:56,630 By all means. What is the one advice you will 366 00:22:56,670 --> 00:23:02,050 give to this? Young entrepreneurs, Well, first 367 00:23:02,050 --> 00:23:08,490 of all, I think as a historian, there's always a large majority 368 00:23:08,490 --> 00:23:10,730 which stays silent when things go wrong. 369 00:23:11,050 --> 00:23:16,450 But what I also noticed is that this silent majority isn't 370 00:23:16,490 --> 00:23:21,930 always promoting those people who are spreading hate. 371 00:23:22,290 --> 00:23:28,350 I think we underestimate the kind of passive resistance or 372 00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:32,030 annoyance that a lot of young people have towards hate speech 373 00:23:32,030 --> 00:23:33,550 that's happening in this country. 374 00:23:34,310 --> 00:23:40,670 And it's not a surprise that most young people don't watch TV 375 00:23:40,670 --> 00:23:43,550 news anymore to know how the world is running. 376 00:23:44,070 --> 00:23:49,870 They have their own new sources. So I think that the only advice 377 00:23:49,870 --> 00:23:53,470 I can give to people is that go out, make friends who are 378 00:23:53,470 --> 00:23:59,130 different from you, and if you are from one community, make 379 00:23:59,130 --> 00:24:03,370 friends from people with another community and learn from them 380 00:24:03,370 --> 00:24:07,090 and understand them and have empathy towards each other. 381 00:24:07,450 --> 00:24:12,250 If we can have that kind of a simple attitude, much of these 382 00:24:12,250 --> 00:24:14,250 problems will go away in an instant. 383 00:24:14,370 --> 00:24:17,450 They don't have to raise their voice or you know, stand with a 384 00:24:17,450 --> 00:24:20,770 placard or anything. Just make friends of from people 385 00:24:20,810 --> 00:24:25,130 who are different from you. People who you might fear, for 386 00:24:25,130 --> 00:24:28,250 example, and see how do they see the world? 387 00:24:28,250 --> 00:24:30,690 And you'll realize that they're not very different from you. 388 00:24:30,930 --> 00:24:34,210 And their concerns as young people is exactly the same. 389 00:24:34,210 --> 00:24:38,610 They want to travel, they want to make reels on Instagram, they 390 00:24:38,610 --> 00:24:41,530 want to have a good life, have fun. 391 00:24:41,850 --> 00:24:44,130 That's the main goal of everyone and justice. 392 00:24:44,130 --> 00:24:48,570 Realizing this commonality can be the best anecdote to hate in 393 00:24:48,570 --> 00:24:58,550 this country, if it's spreading. Today's episode was produced by 394 00:24:58,550 --> 00:25:02,470 Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. For a daily spotlight on people, 395 00:25:02,510 --> 00:25:05,270 ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us. 396 00:25:05,590 --> 00:25:10,630 We're available on TOI, Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts, and all 397 00:25:10,630 --> 00:25:14,830 other platforms of your choice. For any news tips, e-mail us at 398 00:25:14,870 --> 00:25:17,550 TOI Podcast at Timesinternet in.