1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,080 From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:19,850 Times of India podcast. See, there are two possibilities 3 00:00:19,850 --> 00:00:23,010 here. One, that he knew it and it did 4 00:00:23,010 --> 00:00:26,810 not have his sanction, but he allowed it to happen because he 5 00:00:26,810 --> 00:00:29,890 was simply getting tired of being badgered and bullied by 6 00:00:29,890 --> 00:00:32,369 all these people. And the second thing is that he 7 00:00:32,369 --> 00:00:36,010 probably set it up and he set it up in such a fashion he probably 8 00:00:36,650 --> 00:00:40,650 took only his close acolytes into confidence, which I would 9 00:00:40,650 --> 00:00:43,490 say would be Supriya, would be Arjit and would be Praful Patel 10 00:00:43,490 --> 00:00:45,570 and at the most delay Pulse Patel. 11 00:00:45,980 --> 00:00:49,580 And and told them that you go there but nobody should have a 12 00:00:49,580 --> 00:00:52,940 whisper of whisper of what has really happened. 13 00:00:53,220 --> 00:00:56,540 And and nobody should presume that I'm supporting you. 14 00:00:56,540 --> 00:00:58,980 So you people will be saying these things against me. 15 00:00:59,220 --> 00:01:00,900 I'll be saying these things against you. 16 00:01:00,940 --> 00:01:03,940 And then we will see a 10 months down the line what to do about 17 00:01:03,940 --> 00:01:06,060 it. That possibility is also there 18 00:01:06,060 --> 00:01:08,540 which Sharad Pawar, you can never write off anything. 19 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,160 That's Sujata Anandhan explaining the two theories 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,720 about the decision taken by NCP leader Ajit Pawar to join the 21 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:19,080 Bharatiya Janta Party and Shiv Sena government in Maharashtra. 22 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:22,560 The BJP Shiv Sena government itself was formed thanks to a 23 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,720 split in the Shiv Sena, with Eknath Chindi switching sides 24 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,680 with the majority of the party's Mla's. 25 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:31,280 Ajit Pawar and eight other senior Nationalist Congress 26 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:35,240 Party or NCP leaders was sworn in as ministers on Sunday, the 27 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,720 2nd of July, after they announced their decision to 28 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:40,740 switch sides. Ajit Pawar was reinstated as 29 00:01:40,740 --> 00:01:44,500 deputy chief minister, a post he held in the NCP Congress Shiv 30 00:01:44,500 --> 00:01:48,820 Sena alliance that existed in the state from 2019 to 2022. 31 00:01:49,460 --> 00:01:52,460 Sujata Anandhan, who's a journalist, columnist and 32 00:01:52,460 --> 00:01:55,220 political analyst, has been writing on Sharad Pawar and 33 00:01:55,220 --> 00:01:58,300 Maharashtra politics for years. She says there's one common 34 00:01:58,300 --> 00:02:01,860 thing among the NCP leaders who switched sides on Sunday. 35 00:02:03,230 --> 00:02:06,350 All these people who have joined UP, they have joined UP with the 36 00:02:06,350 --> 00:02:09,389 BJP essentially because they have cases pending against them. 37 00:02:09,389 --> 00:02:12,430 And there are reports which say that they went to Sharad Pawar 38 00:02:12,430 --> 00:02:15,710 and they told him that in our old age, we don't want to go and 39 00:02:15,710 --> 00:02:17,590 sit in jail. So you have to join up with the 40 00:02:17,590 --> 00:02:20,430 BJP. Two days after Ajit Pawar 41 00:02:20,430 --> 00:02:23,590 announced his decision to switch sides, it remained unclear how 42 00:02:23,590 --> 00:02:26,390 many NCP lawmakers from the state are actually supporting 43 00:02:26,390 --> 00:02:28,230 him. The initial number was said to 44 00:02:28,230 --> 00:02:32,460 be 40 out of 53 party MLAs. A day later, 2 MLAs who were 45 00:02:32,460 --> 00:02:35,060 said to be supporting Ajit Pawar, switched sides to the 46 00:02:35,060 --> 00:02:38,660 Sharad Pawar faction. Sharad Pawar, who Co founded the 47 00:02:38,660 --> 00:02:42,220 party in 1999 after breaking away from the Congress, said he 48 00:02:42,220 --> 00:02:45,300 wouldn't go to court against his nephew to fight for the party's 49 00:02:45,300 --> 00:02:48,460 symbol or name. However, since then both 50 00:02:48,460 --> 00:02:50,700 factions have declared different people as heads of the 51 00:02:50,700 --> 00:02:54,180 legislative party unit and state unit, showing that the fight may 52 00:02:54,180 --> 00:02:57,310 have just begun. Introduce episode Sujata Anandan 53 00:02:57,310 --> 00:03:00,070 is in conversation with my colleague Alka Dupkar and me 54 00:03:00,230 --> 00:03:01,950 about the ramifications of the split. 55 00:03:02,390 --> 00:03:05,270 She explains why Pawar may have allowed the split to take place 56 00:03:05,510 --> 00:03:07,990 and what it could mean for state and national politics. 57 00:03:08,510 --> 00:03:10,950 The split comes after a prolonged drama in May, which 58 00:03:10,950 --> 00:03:13,790 began with Sharad Pawar offering to resign as the party's 59 00:03:13,790 --> 00:03:16,390 president. In the end, he appointed his 60 00:03:16,390 --> 00:03:19,230 daughter and parliamentarian, Supriya Sulay as one of the 61 00:03:19,230 --> 00:03:23,110 party's working presidents. Pointedly, Nevi Ajit Pawar, who 62 00:03:23,110 --> 00:03:26,030 was rumoured to be attempting a split at the time, was offered 63 00:03:26,030 --> 00:03:29,550 no senior post in the party. Alka started by asking Sujata 64 00:03:29,550 --> 00:03:32,630 about Sharad Pawar's succession plan and whether the split can 65 00:03:32,630 --> 00:03:34,870 be seen as a decision against his proposals. 66 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:41,600 First, his whole show is run by Praful Patel, who is known as 67 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:42,760 Sharad. Pawar's man. 68 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,240 So do you think that it was Sharad Pawar's mistake to make 69 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,240 him working president, or was it intentional that he shared power 70 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,200 between his daughter and Praful Patel? 71 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,000 See which Sharad Pawar you can never say. 72 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,680 So you could look at it two ways that Praful Patel has been 73 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,200 standing by his side for all these years, so he probably 74 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:05,740 trusted. Praful Patel and he's aware of 75 00:04:05,740 --> 00:04:08,820 the fact that many of his supporters do not want to 76 00:04:08,820 --> 00:04:11,500 blindly accept Supriya Sudhey as their leader. 77 00:04:11,740 --> 00:04:16,100 And so he probably was depending upon Praful Patel to ease the 78 00:04:16,100 --> 00:04:19,380 path, ease Supriya's path, and ease the path for other people 79 00:04:19,380 --> 00:04:22,180 to accept Supriya's leadership. That could be one thing. 80 00:04:22,340 --> 00:04:25,020 And the second thing was that yes, he put his daughter in the 81 00:04:25,060 --> 00:04:28,220 case because he knew if there is one person you can trust, you 82 00:04:28,220 --> 00:04:32,980 can trust your your own child. I think the latter is true 83 00:04:32,980 --> 00:04:35,780 because he would not have. Been unaware of how even Praful 84 00:04:35,780 --> 00:04:37,580 Patel was. Trying to persuade the people 85 00:04:37,580 --> 00:04:41,300 that Sharad Pawar is tired, is in need of retirement, allow him 86 00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:44,980 to go, let him rest, etc. And you know, if you know Sharad 87 00:04:44,980 --> 00:04:48,780 Pawar, this is one man. This is one man who will never, 88 00:04:48,780 --> 00:04:51,580 never retire. He will never retire unless 89 00:04:51,580 --> 00:04:54,020 circumstances compel him. So he must have got a little 90 00:04:54,060 --> 00:04:56,180 upset. But knowing it, he probably 91 00:04:56,180 --> 00:04:59,500 divided the positions, knowing that he could ultimately keep a 92 00:04:59,580 --> 00:05:02,660 control over the party by making his daughter also the working 93 00:05:02,660 --> 00:05:07,290 president. Ajit Pawar and senior leader of 94 00:05:07,290 --> 00:05:11,290 NCP, splitting up from the main group. 95 00:05:11,770 --> 00:05:15,130 Does it indicate that they're saying big No to Supriyas 96 00:05:15,130 --> 00:05:18,890 leadership? I think so many of these people 97 00:05:18,890 --> 00:05:21,530 who have now gone with Ajit Pawar are known to be Sharad 98 00:05:21,530 --> 00:05:24,710 Pawar loyalists. And they do not really like Ajit 99 00:05:24,710 --> 00:05:26,990 Pawar, including, I'll tell you, Praful Patel. 100 00:05:26,990 --> 00:05:30,430 Even Praful Patel and Ajit Pawar have been in conflict with each 101 00:05:30,430 --> 00:05:33,470 other for years and years. Bhujbal also Dilipansi Patel is 102 00:05:33,470 --> 00:05:36,670 another quite a few of them. They don't like Ajit Pawar, but 103 00:05:36,670 --> 00:05:39,910 now they are with Ajit. Because even if they don't like 104 00:05:39,910 --> 00:05:42,950 Ajit, they do not want the leadership of Supriya Sule. 105 00:05:43,030 --> 00:05:45,670 They think that, you know, Supriya Sule has been imposed on 106 00:05:45,670 --> 00:05:48,230 them. At least Ajit has had 30 years 107 00:05:48,230 --> 00:05:50,670 at the grassroots. He has built himself up and 108 00:05:50,670 --> 00:05:54,920 Supriya has just come Kal. Kalki, aai Hui, hey And then 109 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:56,920 shes being imposed, imposed on them. 110 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,240 So that feeling definitely is there because all these guys are 111 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,880 also have been around for 3035 years, you know, So why should 112 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,320 they accept the leadership of somebody whos been there around 113 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:12,880 only for 10 or 15 years. But Ajit Power, he was former 114 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:14,880 deputy chief minister of Maharashtra. 115 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,200 So what has Ajit Power gained by revolting against Sharad Powers 116 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,360 leadership And where do you see Ajit Powers political career 117 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:29,370 going forward from here? This is the 7th time that Ajit 118 00:06:29,370 --> 00:06:32,570 Pawar has been sworn in as Deputy Chief Minister. 119 00:06:32,690 --> 00:06:36,610 If you take in the fact of his resignation during the 120 00:06:36,930 --> 00:06:40,090 Prithviraj Chauhan government when the irrigation scam had 121 00:06:40,410 --> 00:06:43,850 burst into the open, when he had to resign pending an inquiry, 122 00:06:44,050 --> 00:06:46,610 but then he couldn't live without being in the government. 123 00:06:46,610 --> 00:06:48,450 He came back. He got sworn in again. 124 00:06:48,610 --> 00:06:50,330 If you add that, that is the 8th. 125 00:06:51,030 --> 00:06:53,550 Time. So I always say that hes always 126 00:06:53,550 --> 00:06:55,270 the bridesmaid and never the bride. 127 00:06:55,390 --> 00:06:58,270 But he is very, very power, power hungry. 128 00:06:58,270 --> 00:07:01,710 He wants to be chief minister. His uncle managed to become 129 00:07:01,710 --> 00:07:05,070 Chief minister within 10 or 15 years of getting into politics. 130 00:07:05,510 --> 00:07:08,390 Ajit Pawar thought that he will follow the same trajectory. 131 00:07:08,670 --> 00:07:12,030 But Sharad Pawar is a different, different quantity. 132 00:07:12,990 --> 00:07:15,230 There are bound to be comparisons made between Ajit 133 00:07:15,230 --> 00:07:18,550 Pawar and Maharashtra Chief Minister Eknath Chandi, given 134 00:07:18,550 --> 00:07:20,590 how they exited their respective parties. 135 00:07:21,060 --> 00:07:24,340 But Sujata Anandan says there's one fundamental difference 136 00:07:24,340 --> 00:07:27,260 between the high profile rebels in the Shiv Sena and those in 137 00:07:27,260 --> 00:07:31,300 the NCP. See, if Shinde rebelled against 138 00:07:31,700 --> 00:07:35,460 Uddhav Thackeray, I won't blame him as much as I would blame 139 00:07:35,540 --> 00:07:37,340 Ajit Pawar and all these other people. 140 00:07:37,340 --> 00:07:40,940 Because Shinde was something on his own, independent of Bal 141 00:07:40,940 --> 00:07:42,940 Thackeray, independent of Uddhav Thackeray. 142 00:07:43,060 --> 00:07:46,140 He had built up his base. In fact, Balasaheb and Uddha 143 00:07:46,140 --> 00:07:49,300 probably needed him a little bit more than he needed them at that 144 00:07:49,300 --> 00:07:52,260 point of time, but that is. It's not the case with Ajit and 145 00:07:52,260 --> 00:07:56,380 Bujwal and Dilip Bal, say and and other people. 146 00:07:56,620 --> 00:08:00,300 They are what they are today entirely because Sharad Pawar 147 00:08:00,300 --> 00:08:03,020 built them up. Sujatha says that given the 148 00:08:03,020 --> 00:08:05,660 drama that played out after Sharad Pawar offered to resign 149 00:08:05,660 --> 00:08:08,620 as party chief in ME, he may have been happy to see Ajit 150 00:08:08,620 --> 00:08:13,580 Pawar and his supporters depart. If you notice in May when Sharad 151 00:08:13,580 --> 00:08:17,020 Pawat went through that resignation drama, that is the 152 00:08:17,020 --> 00:08:19,220 time when there was a first attempt at the coup. 153 00:08:19,220 --> 00:08:23,860 Now if you noticed Ajit, Praful Patel, all these people were, 154 00:08:23,860 --> 00:08:26,780 you know, begging with the with the NCP workers that Saib is 155 00:08:26,780 --> 00:08:29,780 very tired, Saib wants to retire, let him retire. 156 00:08:29,980 --> 00:08:33,220 So they were trying to forcibly retire him. 157 00:08:33,220 --> 00:08:36,220 And two or three days before that Ajit had made a statement 158 00:08:36,220 --> 00:08:39,620 saying that sometimes it is time for, you know, the elders to 159 00:08:39,620 --> 00:08:41,580 step aside and give way to the younger. 160 00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:43,740 People so they have been trying to do this. 161 00:08:43,740 --> 00:08:46,700 They have been trying to take over take over the party from 162 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:48,940 within. Now with Praful Patel made the 163 00:08:48,940 --> 00:08:53,420 working president and Ajit Pawar was wanting to resign as leader 164 00:08:53,420 --> 00:08:55,980 of opposition. Bujwal was saying that make an 165 00:08:55,980 --> 00:08:59,180 OBC either the party president or the leader of opposition. 166 00:08:59,420 --> 00:09:02,860 So Mujbal or Dhananjay Mundi would have been a leader of 167 00:09:02,860 --> 00:09:05,420 opposition. Ajit would have been party 168 00:09:05,420 --> 00:09:08,380 president and then it would have been very easy for for them to 169 00:09:08,420 --> 00:09:11,460 take over the party at the center Praful. 170 00:09:11,780 --> 00:09:14,220 Would have endorsed it, but I think Sharad Pawar was 171 00:09:14,220 --> 00:09:17,460 suspicious and had a clue, which is why he never acted on that. 172 00:09:17,460 --> 00:09:20,100 He just kept quiet, he said. I'm considering it and just kept 173 00:09:20,100 --> 00:09:22,220 quiet. He never handed that entire 174 00:09:22,220 --> 00:09:26,420 power, so I think he had a clue that this is eventually going to 175 00:09:26,420 --> 00:09:29,740 happen. He didn't act on it, and in some 176 00:09:29,740 --> 00:09:32,260 ways I think it's a relief to him that they're out of the 177 00:09:32,260 --> 00:09:37,110 party. The whole fight is portrayed as 178 00:09:37,110 --> 00:09:40,270 a fight between Jayantha Patil and Ajit Power. 179 00:09:40,470 --> 00:09:45,990 As you must have seen, they have already initiated Ajit Power 180 00:09:45,990 --> 00:09:49,470 Group has initiated action against Jayant Patil and 181 00:09:49,470 --> 00:09:52,510 Jitendra award. So they are trying to portray 182 00:09:52,510 --> 00:09:56,070 this fight between Ajit Power and Jayantha Patil instead of 183 00:09:56,110 --> 00:10:00,990 Ajit Power versus Sharad Power. Is this a smart move in your 184 00:10:00,990 --> 00:10:04,750 opinion? This battle in the NCP is not 185 00:10:04,750 --> 00:10:07,190 new. It is at least about 7:00 or 8 186 00:10:07,190 --> 00:10:11,990 years old, if you remember in 2014 when the election results 187 00:10:11,990 --> 00:10:14,710 came and the BJP did not get an absolute majority. 188 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:17,560 And they had broken their alliance with the Shiv Sena. 189 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:22,160 They got only about 1:20 or 122 seat and they needed about 2020 190 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:27,880 or 2025 seats more. If you recall, it was Praful 191 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,080 Patel who instantly went on television and he said that we 192 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,240 have decided to support the Devendra Fadnavis government 193 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:38,040 without the BJP asking. So it has always been Praful 194 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,480 Patel's endeavor to go with the BJP. 195 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,740 Now he's a businessman. He he has connections with 196 00:10:43,740 --> 00:10:45,900 Adani. Adani has many projects in 197 00:10:45,900 --> 00:10:48,100 Gondia and Bandara which is his constituency. 198 00:10:48,100 --> 00:10:50,220 He cannot afford to alienate the BJP. 199 00:10:50,460 --> 00:10:52,220 He cannot afford to alienate Adani. 200 00:10:52,220 --> 00:10:55,340 And that Sharad Pawar's famous interview where he said that 201 00:10:55,340 --> 00:10:58,420 parliamentary committee is not going to solve anything, Adani 202 00:10:58,420 --> 00:11:01,260 has done nothing wrong etc. It was all at the behest of 203 00:11:01,260 --> 00:11:02,140 Praful Patel. You. 204 00:11:02,540 --> 00:11:06,060 I don't think Sharad Pawar actually believed in that but he 205 00:11:06,060 --> 00:11:10,180 has to help out his supporters. So this battle has been for a 206 00:11:10,180 --> 00:11:15,340 very long time and Arna. Now 20/16/2017, I think it was 207 00:11:15,340 --> 00:11:19,180 more like 2017. There was a NCP executive 208 00:11:19,180 --> 00:11:22,140 meeting and at that they came to blows. 209 00:11:22,140 --> 00:11:25,060 Praful Patel on one side and Jain Patel and and Jitendra 210 00:11:25,060 --> 00:11:28,420 Award on the other side. Now Awad and Jain Patel have 211 00:11:28,420 --> 00:11:31,380 always been for alliance with the Congress or at least to stay 212 00:11:31,380 --> 00:11:34,380 secular because they are in constituencies like that. 213 00:11:34,580 --> 00:11:38,300 Awad comes from a Muslim majority constituency and even 214 00:11:38,300 --> 00:11:40,580 Jain Patel is from Western Maharashtra where people are 215 00:11:40,580 --> 00:11:42,180 voting more for the Congress than they are. 216 00:11:42,260 --> 00:11:44,860 Voting for either the Shiv Sena or the BJP. 217 00:11:44,860 --> 00:11:46,860 So he did not want to lose that alliance. 218 00:11:46,860 --> 00:11:50,700 They are on marginal seats so they need this alliance with the 219 00:11:50,700 --> 00:11:53,100 Congress. Whereas Praful Patel always knew 220 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:55,420 that he's going to get into trouble because Air India got 221 00:11:55,420 --> 00:11:59,220 trouble with her and and and predictably a few years his kind 222 00:11:59,220 --> 00:12:01,460 of association with Iqbal Mirchi came to light. 223 00:12:01,660 --> 00:12:05,260 He knew long before the Congress began calling the BJP a washing 224 00:12:05,260 --> 00:12:07,420 machine. He knew that joining the BJP 225 00:12:07,420 --> 00:12:09,580 means his. He will be washed clean of his 226 00:12:09,740 --> 00:12:12,180 sins or whatever like that. So he was forced. 227 00:12:12,340 --> 00:12:15,460 Sharad Pawar. You know, a lot of Congress 228 00:12:15,460 --> 00:12:18,380 people have complained that he should have done more to nip it 229 00:12:18,380 --> 00:12:20,940 in the bud. Do you think he could have 230 00:12:20,940 --> 00:12:24,220 nipped it in the bud or was he constrained in that respect? 231 00:12:25,300 --> 00:12:28,020 No, he could have nipped it in the bud if he wanted to. 232 00:12:28,260 --> 00:12:31,260 You know the people in the NCP feared Sharad Pawar more than 233 00:12:31,260 --> 00:12:33,660 the people in the Shiv Sena used to feel about it, Thakre, 234 00:12:33,780 --> 00:12:36,020 because Sharad Pawar has different ways of dealing. 235 00:12:36,420 --> 00:12:41,140 If you cross Sharad Pawar, he will socially and politically 236 00:12:41,140 --> 00:12:44,180 completely destroy you. And he has various ways of doing 237 00:12:44,180 --> 00:12:46,100 it. So everybody is afraid of Sharad 238 00:12:46,140 --> 00:12:48,780 Pawar in that sense. In the NCP as well as in the 239 00:12:48,780 --> 00:12:51,460 Congress, if you talk to many congressmen, they have sugar 240 00:12:51,460 --> 00:12:53,900 factories, they have educational institutions. 241 00:12:53,900 --> 00:12:56,460 They do not make a statement against Sharad Pawar, a single 242 00:12:56,460 --> 00:12:59,220 one, because they know that if they cross him, they are liable 243 00:12:59,220 --> 00:13:03,510 to be destroyed by by Pawar. But I think he was at a 244 00:13:03,510 --> 00:13:07,270 particular stage when he was very, very tired of being being 245 00:13:07,270 --> 00:13:10,190 bullied by all these people who wanted to join the BJP. 246 00:13:10,190 --> 00:13:12,190 It was working against his ideology. 247 00:13:12,390 --> 00:13:14,950 Years ago when he formed the first ever coalition government 248 00:13:15,270 --> 00:13:19,870 in 1978, he had taken all members of the Jansang on board. 249 00:13:19,870 --> 00:13:23,590 Jansang was a precursor to the BJP, but it was not the kind of 250 00:13:23,590 --> 00:13:27,510 BJP that we see today. Then, after that, he has had no 251 00:13:27,750 --> 00:13:31,750 truck and no alliance with the BJP except at Praful Patel's 252 00:13:31,750 --> 00:13:34,550 urging. In 2014 when there was a voice 253 00:13:34,630 --> 00:13:37,790 vote in the in the assembly for a confidence motion that 254 00:13:37,790 --> 00:13:39,430 Devendra Fadnavis was undergoing. 255 00:13:39,430 --> 00:13:42,070 At that point of time, probably because the voices were very 256 00:13:42,070 --> 00:13:45,070 loud, probably even the MCP, said I. 257 00:13:45,350 --> 00:13:49,270 But beyond that there has been no no official association with 258 00:13:49,270 --> 00:13:51,630 the BJP. Frankly speaking, he was being 259 00:13:51,750 --> 00:13:55,070 tired of being bullied and badgered and everything and he 260 00:13:55,070 --> 00:13:57,710 felt it is much better if they get out of the party on their 261 00:13:57,710 --> 00:13:59,990 own rather than him having to kick them out. 262 00:14:01,780 --> 00:14:04,780 What does a diminished Sharad power mean for this opposition 263 00:14:04,780 --> 00:14:07,460 unity and this alliance that is said to be in the works? 264 00:14:07,660 --> 00:14:10,900 What does it mean for that alliance itself if Sharad Pawar 265 00:14:10,900 --> 00:14:15,980 himself is a diminished force? Actually, my conviction is that 266 00:14:16,020 --> 00:14:18,980 a weakened Sharad Pawar is good news for the Congress and 267 00:14:18,980 --> 00:14:20,860 opposition unity. He will work. 268 00:14:21,300 --> 00:14:24,420 For opposition unity and he will work for Congress victory with 269 00:14:24,780 --> 00:14:28,220 with more strength, with more vigor, because he will need to 270 00:14:28,220 --> 00:14:31,780 prove himself that it is because of me that this has happened. 271 00:14:31,940 --> 00:14:34,820 So I think it is really very good news for opposition unity 272 00:14:34,820 --> 00:14:38,740 and very good news for for the Congress that Sharad Pawar has 273 00:14:38,740 --> 00:14:43,670 been diminished a little bit. The NCP, while projected as this 274 00:14:43,670 --> 00:14:47,270 Maratha party, also enjoys massive support from the Muslim 275 00:14:47,270 --> 00:14:51,070 community as Ajit Pomar overplayed his hand by believing 276 00:14:51,070 --> 00:14:54,350 that he will just sort of inherit the whole NCP vote bank 277 00:14:54,750 --> 00:14:58,310 in Mars, so to say. Yeah, he has. 278 00:14:58,710 --> 00:15:01,870 He has. If Sharat Pawar is one thing. 279 00:15:02,070 --> 00:15:05,630 He's fiercely secular and he comes from Maharashtra where 280 00:15:05,630 --> 00:15:08,510 there is the fully Shahu Ambedkar ethos. 281 00:15:08,980 --> 00:15:12,020 He's a socialist. He is never going to give up 282 00:15:12,020 --> 00:15:13,820 that he thought. And if you notice when he went 283 00:15:13,820 --> 00:15:17,940 to Karad and Satara, he once again evoked at Yashwant Raj 284 00:15:17,940 --> 00:15:20,660 Chavan Samadhi. He once again evoked Sulesh Rahu 285 00:15:20,660 --> 00:15:23,180 Ambedkar and he said I will never give up this ideology. 286 00:15:23,420 --> 00:15:27,980 I would say that see, we are what, more than a year from the 287 00:15:27,980 --> 00:15:30,900 assembly elections, in about 10 months from the Lok Sabha 288 00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:33,620 elections. As we approach these elections, 289 00:15:33,620 --> 00:15:37,180 know the the shape of this government, the Maharashtra 290 00:15:37,180 --> 00:15:40,540 government, the shape of. The Shindi alliance and the 291 00:15:40,540 --> 00:15:44,380 shape of the NCP alliance is not going to remain the same as it 292 00:15:44,380 --> 00:15:47,740 is today. As the elections approached, I 293 00:15:47,740 --> 00:15:49,900 wouldn't be surprised if there would be a homecoming. 294 00:15:50,900 --> 00:15:54,700 I won't be surprised if they cry, They burst into tears and 295 00:15:54,700 --> 00:15:58,340 then he comes and he falls at his uncle St. and say forgive 296 00:15:58,340 --> 00:16:01,460 me, I was misled and blood is thicker than water. 297 00:16:01,700 --> 00:16:03,220 Should it provide me take him back. 298 00:16:04,430 --> 00:16:07,790 Sujata says that the BJP has been feeling for a while that 299 00:16:07,790 --> 00:16:10,710 they haven't reaped the benefits of splitting the Shiv Sena. 300 00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:14,150 That might be why they ensured A splitting the NCP as well. 301 00:16:14,670 --> 00:16:17,950 But because Sharad Pawan has cultivated A voter base that is 302 00:16:17,950 --> 00:16:22,150 very different from the BJP and Shiv Sena, Sujata says it won't 303 00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:25,430 be easy for the BJP Eknath Shinde, Ajit Pawar alliance. 304 00:16:25,750 --> 00:16:27,870 In any of the upcoming elections in the state. 305 00:16:28,590 --> 00:16:31,790 Why did they need to split up the NCP and take the NCP on 306 00:16:31,790 --> 00:16:33,750 board? Because Shinde was not giving 307 00:16:33,750 --> 00:16:35,590 them the returns that they had expected. 308 00:16:35,830 --> 00:16:39,070 They had expected Uddhav Thakri to collapse, Aditya Thakri to 309 00:16:39,070 --> 00:16:40,870 collapse, That nothing will happen. 310 00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:43,550 They will just walk away and they will just go and sit at 311 00:16:43,550 --> 00:16:45,430 Matoshree. But that didn't happen. 312 00:16:45,430 --> 00:16:48,670 Both father and son fought back in the kind of groundswell of 313 00:16:48,670 --> 00:16:51,590 support that they got it, and then all the rallies that they 314 00:16:51,590 --> 00:16:53,710 held. Shinde has been countering those 315 00:16:53,710 --> 00:16:55,670 rallies, but Shinde has been spent. 316 00:16:55,750 --> 00:16:58,310 Building government money and other things to get the people 317 00:16:58,310 --> 00:17:00,870 to his events, whereas Uddha has been getting spontaneous 318 00:17:01,270 --> 00:17:04,069 responses. So that has created a bit of a 319 00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:07,630 problem for the BJP that Shinde is not getting the kind of vote. 320 00:17:08,030 --> 00:17:10,470 And the kind of support that they were expecting and Udha 321 00:17:10,990 --> 00:17:14,270 Udha has not collapsed. The BJP, I'm told, had internal 322 00:17:14,270 --> 00:17:17,829 surveys which told them that Shinde was actually pulling them 323 00:17:17,829 --> 00:17:19,990 down. If you remember, Chandrakant 324 00:17:19,990 --> 00:17:23,910 Bhawan Kuli, who's the state BJP president, made a statement 325 00:17:23,910 --> 00:17:26,150 saying that, you know, at the next elections, you know, Shinde 326 00:17:26,150 --> 00:17:31,030 will contest 20 seats and we will contest 200 and 200 and 327 00:17:31,030 --> 00:17:33,230 whatever, 40 seats or something like that. 328 00:17:33,230 --> 00:17:37,150 You know, Shinde had got really mad and off late last week or 10 329 00:17:37,150 --> 00:17:39,270 days back, you saw. Those advertisements that Shinde 330 00:17:39,270 --> 00:17:42,070 took out Devendra Patna Fadnavis was nowhere. 331 00:17:42,070 --> 00:17:43,910 There was Narendra Modi and there was Shinde. 332 00:17:44,030 --> 00:17:46,870 So there has been trouble in their paradise for a very long 333 00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:49,870 time and that is why they needed to get NCP on board. 334 00:17:49,870 --> 00:17:53,670 And if you see Aditya Thakre's statement, he issued a statement 335 00:17:53,710 --> 00:17:56,990 wherein he says that one of the Shinde men said that they had to 336 00:17:56,990 --> 00:18:01,550 accept this entry of the NCP into the government because BJP 337 00:18:01,550 --> 00:18:05,790 told them that they won't be able to win 145 seats if they do 338 00:18:05,790 --> 00:18:09,160 not take the NCP on board. So what does that mean? 339 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,400 That means the BJP was certainly not winning without some kind of 340 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,240 a boost from somewhere else. So they are hoping that the NCP 341 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,320 will add to it. But you know, as the elections 342 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:22,120 come closer, as they're going for more surveys, they will 343 00:18:22,120 --> 00:18:24,520 notice. Why has Sharad Pawa not been 344 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,560 swinging towards the BJP? Because like I said that the 345 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,320 their vote is a secular socialist vote. 346 00:18:30,730 --> 00:18:35,010 It is not a saffron vote. So these guys who have who have 347 00:18:35,050 --> 00:18:38,690 allied with the BJP, I think more than half of them will lose 348 00:18:38,690 --> 00:18:41,290 their seats. Even Ajit will not find it easy. 349 00:18:41,290 --> 00:18:44,050 He'll find it an uphill task. It will depend upon Pawar 350 00:18:44,410 --> 00:18:47,410 whether Pawar still considers him his nephew and allows him to 351 00:18:47,450 --> 00:18:50,410 win or whether or whether he brings him down. 352 00:18:50,650 --> 00:18:54,130 It's not a cake walk for these guys in the NCP also. 353 00:18:54,130 --> 00:18:59,210 So this entire thing is going to frequently change shape. 354 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:02,700 Two months before the Lok Sabha elections. 2 months before the 355 00:19:03,220 --> 00:19:06,140 Vdansa by elections, you'll find a completely different picture 356 00:19:06,140 --> 00:19:15,100 in Maharashtra. Today's episode was produced by 357 00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:19,020 Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. For a daily spotlight on people, 358 00:19:19,060 --> 00:19:21,860 ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us. 359 00:19:22,180 --> 00:19:26,620 We're available on Ty Plus, Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts, 360 00:19:26,820 --> 00:19:28,620 and all other platforms of your choice. 361 00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:34,140 For any news tips, e-mail us at TUI Podcast at Timesinternet in.