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From India's largest newsroom, 
I'm Arun George and this is the 

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Times of India podcast. 
Whether it was a cholesterol or 

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whether it was a fatty liver, 
whether it was a diabetes, 

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pressure, arthritis, he said. 
That there is a cure for all 

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these things in the Ayurvedic 
medicine and allopathy doesn't 

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have anything wherein we found 
that many patients have left the

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proper allopathic medicines and 
gone and switched over. 

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That's Doctor Jayesh Leli, who 
is the honorary secretary 

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general of the Indian Medical 
Association. 

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He's also the man who started a 
legal battle against yoga guru 

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and Patanjali Co founder Ramdev,
due to which the yoga guru has 

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had to apologize before the 
Supreme Court. 

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Doctor Lilly achieved widespread
fame in 2021 during the height 

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of the 2nd wave of the COVID-19 
pandemic, when he tore into 

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Ramdev during a live television 
debate. 

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At the time Doctor Lilly was 
questioning the launch of 

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Patanjalis product called 
Coronel, which the company 

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claimed cured COVID-19. 
The move earned Dr. Lily 

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widespread support on social 
media, but it didn't stop the 

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companies promotion of the 
so-called drug in any way. 

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The product had been launched by
Ramdev in the presence of Union 

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ministers Harsh Vardhan and 
Nitin Gutkari just days earlier.

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There's no evidence of how many 
people consumed this product 

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thinking it would protect them. 
But then we also don't know how 

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many people died during the 
height of the 2nd wave of the 

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COVID-19 pandemic in 2021. 
Doctor Lilly says it was the 

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launch of this product which 
prompted the Indian Medical 

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Association to go to the Supreme
Court. 

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But between the filing of this 
case in the Supreme Court and 

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today, Patanjali and its 
subsidiaries have issued 

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multiple ads claiming a range of
products could cure anything 

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from cold to diabetes. 
The Supreme Court has now pulled

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up Ramdevan Patanjali Co founder
Bal Krishna for issuing such 

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ads, despite telling the Supreme
Court that they would stop doing

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so. 
The court has also said it would

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consider strong action against 
the company and its founders 

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during the next hearing. 
It has also criticized the 

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Uttarakhand government for not 
taking action against the firm 

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for its advertisements. 
In today's episode, Doctor Lili 

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is in conversation with my 
colleague Alka Dukar about the 

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case and the changes he hopes to
see. 

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He talks about why more people 
need to complain about such 

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products like those falsely 
marketed by Patanjali. 

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And he also talks about why the 
law to target wrongly sold 

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medication needs to be 
implemented far more seriously. 

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So to start with, the Supreme 
Court has pulled up Ramdev and 

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his deputy Bal Krishna for 
violating its order to stop 

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issuing misleading 
advertisements that raise 

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questions on modern medicine. 
How big is the victory for the 

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Indian Medical Association, upon
whose petition the Supreme Court

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order was issued? 
1st we had objected the Coronel 

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tablet in the Corona episode 
when he publicly and a press 

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conference said that this is the
tablet being used and this is 

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the best and he criticized all 
the allopathic doctors not only 

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criticize allopathic doctors but
vaccines he criticized, oxygen 

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therapy criticized and all the 
medicines he criticized. 

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Subsequently we had objected and
we had filed RTI in various 

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authorities. 
We had filed FIR, We had filed a

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case in the Delhi High Court. 
But even then nothing occurred 

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and subsequently the height of 
it came somewhere in the month 

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of April, May, June 22, wherein 
he published a big 

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advertisement. 
How the, you know, allopathic 

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medicines are causing a lot of 
misconceptions and all those 

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things. 
So appearing in all the 

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newspapers across India, we 
filed immediately a very big 

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case in the Supreme Court 
directly. 

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Doctor Lily says his objection 
was to the constant targeting of

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medical science. 
He says despite the filing of 

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the petition, neither the 
central government nor state 

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governments have undertaken any 
serious action to check these 

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ads by Patanjali, which make 
unproven claims and are not even

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backed by any tests. 
See every system of medicines we

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respect, whether it's allopathy,
Ayurvedic, Kudani, Oopathy, 

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whatever it is. 
But one system person cannot 

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criticize on the other and say 
that this system is wrong. 

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But in such a lockdown and a 
serious business, somebody was 

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saying that this person died 
because oxygen was given to him 

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such a rash statement. 
And then once he said that 

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doctor, you know all those if 
you go and see the videos, that 

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was a very blad. 
Comments passed by this person 

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and that is how we thought that 
now is a high time. 

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Along with me there was a doctor
KV Babu from Kerala also who was

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filing various RTI, various 
complaints and then subsequently

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we filed a case in the Supreme 
Court in the month of June 22 

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wherein all these proceedings 
are now last for two years. 

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We are following it but 
unfortunately government of the 

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health ministry, government, 
Indian National government, 

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whatever they said they even 
though the government from the 

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Uttaranchal were not in a 
position and there was no action

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initiated. 
Prima facie on this 

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advertisement, neither any 
arrangements of checking or 

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cross checking the authenticity 
of the drugs were taken by the 

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respective governments. 
I could read from one of the 

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advertisements which say 
misconceptions spread by 

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Allopathy. 
Save yourself and the country 

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from the misconceptions spread 
by pharma and medical industry. 

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Let's make India disease free. 
This was the advertisement done 

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by Patanjali Wellness. 
Now, could you talk about the 

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unscientific claims such as this
that were made by Baba Ramdev 

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and why they were dangerous? 
I will give you a simple example

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of a diabetes because diabetes 
is a disease. 

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Rather I would say that this is 
a not only disease but it is 

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also a deformity in the body 
because of the aging process, 

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because of the insulin 
deficiency. 

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The second very important matter
is that the persons family tree,

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if you find that there will be 
some congenital hereditary of 

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the diabetes in the family. 
So when you cannot prevent the 

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diabetes which is there in your 
genes, how can you cure? 

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And we have never made any 
claims that we will cure 

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diabetes. 
We will cure blood pressure 

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because we know very well that 
this disease or a deformity 

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needs to be controlled. 
You take the medicine and keep 

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your diabetes under check, keep 
checking it periodically, maybe 

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one month to two months, and 
then you avoid the 

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complications. 
You avoid the complications of 

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the kidneys, vests, blood 
vessels and heart. 

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But here is a person who was 
saying that see we respect the 

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ancient charak Sushruta and 
those you know olden our 

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scientific methods. 
But that time whatever the 

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charak saita was there 
subsequently lot of follow up 

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action, lot of research and 
today we are in the evidence 

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based medicine. 
There is a evidence, there is 

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way to show that this is how the
cure has taken place or a 

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control has taken place. 
But here is a person who was who

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is not even a graduate. 
Forget the doctor. 

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He was a yoga guru and by the 
method of his teaching yoga he 

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has graduated into advising and 
medicine and blaming the other 

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paths. 
Other system of medicine which 

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is totally reckless kind of a 
behavior. 

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And that is how we thought that 
this needs to be stopped once 

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and for all and we need to do 
something on the because enough 

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bashing by the allopathic 
doctors had taken where all over

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the world all our allopathic 
doctors were placed in control 

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and then how can we just keep 
lying. 

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And so everything was tracked 
properly advertisements and when

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we submitted the in the Supreme 
Court what we did was all these 

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cases we documented and we have 
got a lot of patients. 

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We have seen that those who have
left this our own diabetic 

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medicines, they were under 
control but they have gone into 

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the failure. 
They have gone into the heart 

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attack or they have gone into 
the diabetic uncontrolled and 

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complications of diabetes by 
switching to this Patanjali 

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medicines or Ayurvedic medicines
so-called. 

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So definitely this need to be 
stopped because even during 

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corona time what we saw at the 
end if you recollect the 2nd 

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wave and the third wave, we had 
lot of patient and the death 

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rate was increased and that time
he was the person who was 

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against vaccine, he was the 
person against the normal you 

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know allopathic medicines and 
they said that we don't know 

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anything why should the oxygen 
be given and all those stuff. 

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So doctor, the court is now 
questioning the Centre and the 

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state governments over inaction 
against these advertisements. 

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But two ministers, Harshavardhan
and Nitin Gadkari, had endorsed 

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Patanjali's coronial. 
You had filed RTI application 

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back then in 2020, as you 
mentioned just now. 

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Could you tell us what it 
revealed? 

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We had asked two or three 
pertinent questions that whether

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this AYUSH mantra Laya and WHO 
has authorized the sale of 

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coronal tablet, whether it was 
for the cure of coronal and what

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documentations and we had asked 
for what evidence and what 

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trials has been done. 
Whenever somebody says that this

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is a cure for any, for example 
any antibiotic or any fever 

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medicine, then we need to have 
the proper trials on the 

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patients and we are asked for 
the details. 

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So they said that there is no 
trial submitted on such kind of,

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you know, cure of the corona by 
coronal tablet. 

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That time the Ayush Mantralaya 
told us that coronal tablet is 

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not for the Corona cure. 
In fact that is what it was said

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that The Who has also certified.
And then when we wrote to The 

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Who, then within two days they 
changed their stand. 

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They said that this is a 
supportive medicine. 

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So, drug and magic remedies 
Objectionable Advertisement Act 

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of 1954 prohibits advertisements
for 54 diseases. 

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Did Divya Pharmacy, Patanjali's 
manufacturing unit, promote 

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products under such act? 
See, basically they took the 

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advantage and whenever possible 
they tried to say that these are

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supportive medicines and they 
changed this to supportive 

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medicine when they realized that
the cure is not possible and it 

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was only timely gimmick of 
selling the medicines by calling

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the others that they are you're 
not working and we are going to 

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give cure. 
And at the same time when we 

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they are saying that we are 
going to give cure but the cure 

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was not seen nobody, we saw that
the patient has leaving hell and

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heartily after the cure of the 
disease and he has left all the 

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medicines. 
There is nothing like that. 

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So this was all false promises. 
They were doing it to the 

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patients. 
Do you think that the damage has

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already been done where 
misleading claims are normalized

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in the minds of Indians? 
Do you also think all of this is

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coming too late? 
It is coming, not very late, but

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it is coming definitely late. 
We should have had this much 

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earlier today. 
The Supreme Court has taken a 

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very strong action and we need 
to understand that for that 

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matter anybody who is giving 
false claims, false gimmicks and

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playing the around the health of
the person which is a definitely

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a very important issue here. 
I must say that the health is 

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divided into state and the 
center authorities and then what

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happens is the something is left
to the state to take action. 

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Sometimes it is left to the 
center to take action And by 

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this division many times the 
person finds a loopholes and 

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that is what these loopholes 
have come up and under the 

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disguise of you know supporting 
and that nobody reads those fine

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prints. 
They say that you have to take 

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this medicine, but nobody says 
that this is you have to take 

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medicine for lifetime. 
Whereas allopathic say yes, this

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medicines diabetic medicine, you
need to take it for lifetime. 

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They say that no, within 3-4 
months your diabetes will be 

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cured, your blood pressure will 
be cured, which is again a false

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claim. 
And that need to be causing a 

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very cautious to every patient 
who is switching over from this.

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And we have seen the side 
effects of switching over today 

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when we are talking about the 
medicines. 

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All the medicines need to be an 
evidence based format. 

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We need to have a proper 
guidelines, We need to have a 

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proper trials and all those 
things. 

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Every medicine has to follow it.
There is nothing wrong. 

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But then here they have not 
followed it, they have not 

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certified it. 
Their machinery or the 

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government should be set up 
properly to investigate this, so

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at least future damage will be 
stopped. 

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Do you think that side effects 
of these medicines which they 

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are promoting through such 
misleading advertisements are 

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not mentioned in these 
advertisements? 

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Or what is that they don't 
mention about their products in 

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these advertisements? 
They don't mention that there 

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are side effects of these 
products at all. 

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If you find the Pharmacopia of 
our allopathic Pharmacopia which

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is based on the similar to what 
we have got British Pharmacopia 

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or American Pharmacopia and 
there where every medicine 

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whether it's a paracetamol or 
whether it's a painkiller or a 

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blood pressure, some side 
effects you will find at the 

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mention. 
But here you don't find it and 

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unfortunately what happens is 
this is this aortic medicines, 

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they have lot of asthmas they 
call it. 

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And then ultimately what at the 
end of the day what you're going

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is going to get it in a tablet 
is a need to be very well 

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properly certified, proper 
research has to be done and we 

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have seen that over dosage of 
certain tablets also is causing 

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problem and we need to have the 
heavy metal poisoning. 

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We have got certain cases but 
patients are not coming forward 

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to report or you know make a 
complaint. 

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The patient doesn't go to the 
Supreme Court, they just stop 

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the medicine and switch over to 
the allopathic again. 

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But till that time some damage 
is done and some adverse effects

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have occurred which we come to 
know. 

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But even if we tell the 
patients, patients are not 

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interested to go and fight 
because this is see fighting in 

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a legal battle is a very 
lengthy, you know, very time 

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consuming. 
And ultimately patients are not 

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that well can say oriented and 
they don't have the 

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infrastructure or they don't 
have a unity or a consumer of 

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that particular nature to fight 
in such a big case in the 

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Supreme Court. 
Many may accuse you of just 

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targeting Ayurveda. 
What is your response to that? 

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So my response to is very clear.
We are not targeting anyone 

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particular pharmacy or anything 
like that, but we are targeting.

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First of all, stop criticizing 
the allopathic doctors. 

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Suppose you have a allopathic 
Ayurvedic. 

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You do research, you show the 
evidence and you convince the 

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patient that it is getting 
cured. 

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At the same time you must know 
that what is the side effects 

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and what how, what stage? 
By diverting the patients from 

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allopathy to Ayurvedic, which is
a very big concern and which is 

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what is our strong first 
objection and by using the 

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modern media, advertisement, 
newspaper or TV's and all those 

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things under the guise of yoga. 
Yoga is a different therapy, 

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nothing to do with that. 
So why the person from the yoga 

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background go into the Ayurvedic
and promote the Ayurvedic 

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medicine and telling that the IT
should they are the replacement 

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for the allopathic misconception
which is totally wrong, which is

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not acceptable to us. 
Till February 2024 this year, 

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357 brands got notices for 
violating the law. 

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The 1954 Act on Making Claims in
Advertisements. 

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But beyond issuing notices, what
should happen and what isn't 

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happening? 
So the Parliament should take 

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care of this. 
They should have a parliamentary

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committee like normally wherever
whenever the any new act is 

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amended or new act is proposed, 
they have a parliamentary 

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commentary to study that all the
researchers from various fields 

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should come together, that such 
a committee should be formed and

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then they should really do the 
work. 

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Second thing what Supreme Court 
can do at the moment is that any

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false advertising claims are 
there then they should withdraw 

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that drug unless proved 
otherwise that it is a favorable

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medicine and other unless the 
evidence is created and shown. 

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Till that time the dress or 
marketing of that particular 

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drug need to be stopped. 
Otherwise there is no point 

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because already the people have 
known to that and person may not

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00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,720
advertise but he will keep 
selling the drugs to the 

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patient. 
So the person need to be 

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punished. 
At the same time the drug need 

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00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:55,080
to be withdrawn from the market 
till the time the proper 

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evidence is received from the 
company or the OR the committee 

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for that matter. 
We have the various drug 

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controller committee. 
So it's similarly in Ayurveda 

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and Humayapathi also they should
establish the evidence and 

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medicines to that effect to be 
used. 

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Then only we can be sure that 
proper justice will be done. 

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So doctor, how do you view the 
fact that many who debunk 

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medical science and tell others 
to stay away from it are happy 

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00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,960
to take hospital treatment when 
they need it? 

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00:18:28,120 --> 00:18:32,400
Like more recently we have seen 
Jaggi Vasudev, who too makes fun

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00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,680
of modern medicine, was admitted
to a hospital and underwent a 

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00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,440
surgery. 
Today's is the fashion that, you

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know, people criticize. 
But today I can assure you that 

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we are not only treating the end
disease is far better than what 

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we were treating 50 years back, 
number one. 

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Number two, we are in the 
position of not only prevention 

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but early diagnosis. 
Today we have an artificial 

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intelligence. 
We can diagnose any cancer to 

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00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:06,640
the minor level much earlier. 
At the same time, we can detect 

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00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,760
early diabetes. 
We can detect and we can prevent

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00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,480
the cardiac stenting. 
We can prevent the stenting into

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00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,880
the peripheral arteries much, 
much earlier than anybody. 

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00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:22,080
And we are in a far better 
knowledge and much placed for 

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00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,800
this effect. 
So it is just a fashion that we 

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00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,360
are saying it, but modern 
medicine and the intelligence 

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00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:34,600
and I would say the research 
going on is to the great extent.

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So definitely at the end you 
will have to use the modern 

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medicine or you know, patient 
because we have seen the results

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00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:47,880
of it. 
Today's episode was produced by 

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00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,200
Jayaraj. 
Singh and. 

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00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,040
Sahil Gupta for a daily 
spotlight on people, ideas and 

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00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,240
stories that matter, subscribe 
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00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:00,040
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00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:07,200
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