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From Indias largest newsroom, 
I'm Arun George and this is the 

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Times of India podcast. 
In this election, a major issue 

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in some states has been that of 
delimitation. 

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Essentially, it's the process 
which decides how many 

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representatives each state sends
to parliament and how 

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parliamentary constituencies are
drawn. 

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By bringing back this episode 
we'd released earlier in which 

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we'd spoken with Doctor Jay 
Prakash Narayan about the need 

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for delimitation. 
Doctor Jay Prakash Narayan is a 

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former civil servant who founded
the Lok SATA party in an attempt

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to make politics more accessible
in the country. 

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The process of delimitation is 
seeing a lot of political 

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debate, despite the fact that 
it's not going to be done before

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2026. 
A lot of the southern states in 

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India are worried that the 
process of delimitation would 

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reduce the number of MPs the 
states sent to Parliament. 

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It's also feared it will reduce 
the funds received by states in 

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the South from the central 
government. 

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In today's episode, Doctor 
Jayaprakash Narayan is in 

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conversation with my colleague 
Alka Dukar and me about the 

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process of delimitation and the 
need to conduct it. 

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He also explains why it hasn't 
been conducted since 1976 and 

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how it can be done without 
increasing the political 

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temperature. 
What is the delimitation 

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exercise and why it is needed? 
Every democratic country has the

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constituencies for the election 
to legislature based on 

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population. 
After all, the basic principle 

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is one person, one vote, so 
equitable vote, whether I'm rich

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or poor, one human being must 
have roughly the same political 

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power in terms of voice and 
voting as another human being. 

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And our Constitution also 
clearly provided for 

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redistribution or delimitation 
as we call it, of constituencies

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based on population. 
Every 10 years, the Constitution

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said a the number of Lok Sabha 
seats allocated to a state shall

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be as closely as possible in 
proportion to the population of 

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the state based on the latest 
census. 

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And after every census, you must
conduct this exercise so that 

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the number of seats are 
allocated to a state 1st and as 

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far as practicable. 
The second thing the 

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Constitution said is that once 
the number is allocated, the sea

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service redistributed every 10 
years. 

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Because not only do you require 
redistribution because 

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allocation changes from state to
state for the Lok Sabha every 10

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years, but within a state the 
population changes within the 

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ten years. 
We know in large pockets of the 

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country increasingly now the 
rural population is declining at

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least where the birth rates are 
coming down. 

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Urban population is increasing, 
therefore delimitation within 

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the state also. 
And that happened after 1951 

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census. 
It happened after 61 census. 

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After 71 census, 3 delimitation 
commissioners worked on this and

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everything went off very well. 
Then came the constitutional 

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amendment in 1976. 
It was in 1976 that it was 

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decided to freeze the Lok Sabha 
constituencies as they stood at 

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the time. 
In 2001, the Atal Bihari 

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Vajpayee government also decided
to keep the constituencies as 

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they were. 
Doctor Jayaprakash Narayan 

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explains the role he played in 
that and why the government 

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decided to keep the decision on 
hold for another 20-5 years. 

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He admits it's difficult to 
judge whether the decision to 

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put it on hold in 1976 was a 
good one or a bad one, But he 

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says as far as he knows, there 
was no Malified intent. 

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Then Prime Minister Mrs. Indira 
Gandhi seemed to have genuinely 

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believed that you must not 
create perverse incentives for 

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population increase to punish 
states which have been able to 

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contain the population Growth 
will be reopened. 

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Only in 2001, they said they 
thought 20 fives was a long 

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time. 
Then 2001 came. 

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Vajpayee government was in 
office. 

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Then some of us particularly 
later KC Siva Ramakrishnam, the 

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former Secretary Government of 
India in Urban Development and 

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I, we took the initiative 
because we sensed it that this 

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is coming and unless we handle 
it well there will be political 

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challenges. 
So we appeal to the government 

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to allow status quo to continue.
Whether it was a good judgement 

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or not, I cannot say. 
Well at that point in time we 

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felt the country was politically
somewhat unstable. 

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If you remember the Watchpay 
government did not have very 

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great majority multi party 
coalition and the economy was 

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just then they were trying to 
recover from the difficulties 

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faced Pocuran explosion, led to 
sanctions etcetera, therefore 

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the economy. 
We are just not then trying to 

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get back on our feet. 
And if we reopen this Pandora's 

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box, the fear was that it will 
consume all our energy, it will 

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hurt the economy and the country
and the political stability. 

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And that argument, they bought 
it and therefore they said the 

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numbers will be frozen for 
another 25 years. 

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We kicked the can down the road.
Honestly, I thought 25 years is 

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a long time. 
We will see what will happen 

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then, little knowing that 25 
years passes by very fast. 

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And now we are saddled with that
again in 2026. 

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The normal process is that each 
person in a democracy will have 

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roughly equal weightage in terms
of the vote or in terms of 

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representation. 
Therefore, you cannot really 

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have any strong argument against
going back to the redistribution

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based on the census data, so in.
Nutshell, are you suggesting 

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that the North-south divide, 
which will happen based on 

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population, is unavoidable? 
One day or other, we have to 

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face it when demographic 
differences are there and they 

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also accompany economic 
disparities. 

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May take Bihar. 
Bihar has roughly 1/4 of the per

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capita income of the better off 
states like Maharashtra or Tamil

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Nadu or Karnataka. 
Just to clarify, the per capita 

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income is the income earned by 
each person in the state. 

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This is calculated by dividing 
the state's income by the number

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of people living in it. 
And Bihar is not a tiny state 

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with a million population. 
It's a state with the, I don't 

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know, the current population, 
but probably about 10,00,00,000.

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And normally what happens in 
countries where migration is 

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very common within the country, 
like United States, many more 

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people tend to migrate within 
the country than other 

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countries. 
There's far greater migration 

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than India. 
So migration addresses the 

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challenges. 
And also after a certain level 

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of development, population 
actually is an asset. 

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Therefore, more people migrating
into the area actually 

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stimulates economic growth. 
We're not there yet and 

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migration does take place in 
India. 

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But migration still is 
relatively not very large in 

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India from state to state, while
it is taking place more than an 

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hour before. 
Therefore, that does not 

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automatically address the 
demographic problem. 

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And without addressing the 
demographic problem and the 

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political representation, I 
don't think we can go far. 

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Southern states like Tamil Nadu 
haven't quite welcomed the 

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delimitation exercise. 
They have called it the 

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political conspiracy to lower 
the political representation of 

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South India. 
The fear that they have 

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controlled the population and 
that's why they will be 

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punished. 
How the fear should be handled? 

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Every state the birth rates are 
coming down. 

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Some states are ahead of other 
states. 

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Even Bihar which has the highest
birth rate. 

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In India, there's a an 
expression called fertility 

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rate. 
That means the number of 

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children a woman based during 
her reproductive life. 

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Bihar used to be 4 some 1520 
years ago. 

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Now I think Bihar is close to 
three every state. 

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The birth rates are declining 
and fertility rates are 

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declining. 
First, I want us to all 

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understand this panic that my 
God population is growing out of

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control. 
What will happen is not true. 

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It's just that some states, 
because of historical, political

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and economic reasons, there have
been a little ahead of the call.

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But every state is following 
certain every segment of 

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population. 
The rich and the poor, the urban

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and the rural, the Hindu and the
Muslim and the Christian and 

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upper caste and the poorer 
caste. 

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Every segment of the population,
the birth rates and fertility 

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rates are declining. 
The 2nd is it's unfair to say 

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that representation in 
proportion to population is 

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political conspiracy. 
Every country worth mentioning 

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that the democracy has the same 
principle. 

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We adopted the same principal as
part of the Constitution. 

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I don't think that Ambedkar and 
the Constitution makers indulged

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in a deliberate conspiracy to 
hurt all of us. 

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Freedom fighters were very 
learned people. 

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They were fully aware and yet 
they had the delimitation based 

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on census every 10 years. 
We cannot call it a conspiracy. 

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Unity of India is paramount in 
my view. 

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Unity is critical for order and 
peace and harmony in society. 

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We don't have a record of 
peacefully coexisting as 

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separate political entities, 
even a state division, Andhra 

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Pradesh and Telangana. 
There was so much of A strife, 

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only now people are, you know, 
trying to forget the what 

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happened. 
Even now some people feel very 

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strongly. 
So we are very volatile. 

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Therefore, unity to me is the 
most paramount consideration 

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because without unity and order 
in society, there cannot be 

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economic growth and there cannot
be freedom. 

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And I think all of us must pause
a little bit and stop using the 

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rhetoric. 
That is a conspiracy. 

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It's not a conspiracy. 
Yes, a negotiation is necessary.

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Yes, some kind of adjustment is 
necessary. 

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In the 1960s, when there were 
attempts to impose Hindi and the

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whole country Tamil Nadu 
heroically resistant And I think

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India's unity was safeguarded 
because of the wisdom of the 

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political leadership of the 
country by ensuring that while 

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Hindi with the national 
language, English will continue 

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to the link language of India 
and the national language as 

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long as people of India want 
that peace forever. 

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So we require that kind of a 
negotiation and compromise, 

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keeping in mind the unity of 
India, rather than use a very 

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explosive rhetoric. 
So, in your opinion, what are 

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the ways or what are the 
negotiations that should take 

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place to avoid the North-south 
divide? 

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Population control and 
population representation in 

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today's political culture has 
become the centre stage of the 

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controversy. 
Some states, if you take the 

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current number of Lok Sabha and 
if you redistribute that in 

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proportion to the population 
currently, some states will lose

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a significant number of 
representatives. 

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Tamil Nadu and Kerala. 
Most of all, my ballpark number 

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is Kerala out of 20, may lose 
about 6:00 or so. 

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Tamil Nadu out of 39 may lose 8 
or 9 other states. 

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There will be relatively minor 
adjustments. 

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States like Maharashtra where 
they are prosperous and they 

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contain population because of in
migration that may not make much

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of a difference and states like 
UP and Bihar they will get a few

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more representatives then they 
have currently. 

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So one easy way is can we 
maintain the minimum number 

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whatever the current number and 
therefore to the descent 

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increase the size of Lok Sabha. 
So first, there is no sense of 

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actual loss of constituencies 
and representation. 

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I think that's an easy one. 
I have a feeling that's already 

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being considered. 
That's why the new Parliament 

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premises actually provide for 
larger capacity, keeping in mind

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a growing population and 
therefore the increasing members

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of the Lok Sabha. 
The second thing is finances. 

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Everybody is worried about 
finances. 

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Now we have to begin practical. 
Bihar, as I said already, is has

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1/4 of the per capita income of 
the better off states. 

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Now you cannot have one part of 
the country, a large part of the

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country, suffering from extreme 
poverty and have prosperity and 

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peace in the rest of the 
country. 

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Unless we create conditions 
through federal transfer 

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resources to improve the 
infrastructure and provide basic

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communities and services to 
every part of the country, all 

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of us will suffer. 
So can we look at the Finance 

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Commission redistribution in a 
manner that the genuine concerns

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of the four states had addressed
without the better off states 

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feeling that you're rewarding 
incompetence or profligacy? 

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That means can we have a better 
management of resources in in 

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every state in terms of the 
transferred money from Union 

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government, which actually goes 
only for the capital investment,

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education, healthcare, 
infrastructure and service 

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delivery improvement? 
The third is migration. 

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India still is not seeing enough
migration for a country of 1.4 

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billion people. 
I'm talking of internal 

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migration and migrants. 
Even when they exist, we must 

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now give them rights after there
is some talk about you having 

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racial card everywhere. 
But I believe if you migrate for

233
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:48,480
work or anything, you are a 
citizen of India anywhere. 

234
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,360
Therefore you must have the 
rights of citizenship, including

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00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,640
voting rights including public 
distribution, including all 

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00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,120
welfare programs of the 
government. 

237
00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,040
If that is done, as more and 
more migration happens because 

238
00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,160
of economic compulsions, the 
demographic problems will not 

239
00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,480
appear to be big and southern 
states already are realising. 

240
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,120
Without these migrant labourers 
from some of the more populous 

241
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,520
states, many things in Bengaluru
or Mumbai cannot get done today.

242
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:16,640
So instead of getting worked up 
about the interest rate 

243
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,920
differences, we will recognise 
that we actually need the 

244
00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,520
migrant workers. 
Typically migrant workers. 

245
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,120
Once they are dislocated and 
uprooted, they work harder, they

246
00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,960
have dignity of labour, they 
don't suffer from prejudices 

247
00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,560
which are very typical in the 
local community and they are a 

248
00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:34,880
tremendous asset in the economy.
So I think encouraging economic 

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00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,040
migration within the country to 
all the development of the whole

250
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,560
country. 
And finally we can probably have

251
00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:42,760
some kind of an adjustment in 
the upper house. 

252
00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,400
If lower house is strictly 
according to population, can we 

253
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,160
have some kind of a satisfactory
formula? 

254
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,440
It's not going to be easy 
because we are extremely tiny 

255
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,320
states like Sikkim and Mizoram 
and we have very large states 

256
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,160
like UPUP is bigger than every 
country in the world save 3. 

257
00:13:58,680 --> 00:14:01,480
So we have to think very 
innovatively and figure out some

258
00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,480
way of doing something, maybe in
the upper house or at the very 

259
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,360
least finally. 
We can give it ironclad 

260
00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,560
guarantee if necessary by a 
constitutional amendment so that

261
00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:14,400
no states rights or state 
subjects or anything will be 

262
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,080
affected on account of this 
division. 

263
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,160
Therefore, if right now 2/3 is 
what is required to amend the 

264
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:22,880
constitution in respect to those
subjects, we can say we will go 

265
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,200
for 4/5 or even more. 
That should not be a difficult 

266
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,120
thing. 
So there are I think, ways that 

267
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,080
there is goodwill all around. 
We can address these challenges.

268
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:37,200
But the most important question 
of getting the power, and you 

269
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,080
have not touched it, but today 
who is in power is also 

270
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,880
important and the whole fight is
about that. 

271
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:48,320
Also, if the MPs in northern 
part of India are going to 

272
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:50,720
increase, that will change the 
balance. 

273
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:56,440
Alka, the truth is in India. 
Northern India always dominated 

274
00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:58,240
the power structure in terms and
numbers. 

275
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,800
You take the prime ministers. 
There are a few prime ministers 

276
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,480
in the South, like for instance 
Mr. PV Nasimha Rao and Mr. Deva 

277
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,480
Gowda. 
But both were prime ministers by

278
00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,960
accident, not by political 
strength. 

279
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:15,280
In terms of real politic, the 
northern India will always have 

280
00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:18,120
dominance. 
In terms of the power structure 

281
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:19,360
of the Union, there's nothing 
new. 

282
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:23,360
Let's first accept it. 
If anything, the government 

283
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,480
successively and all parties 
have been extraordinarily wise. 

284
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,960
I know we blame them for many 
things that are wrong in giving 

285
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,920
reasonable representation to the
whole country in terms of the 

286
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:37,520
cabinet formation, etcetera. 
And 3rd, the real government for

287
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,680
the people is the state. 
If you look at the elections, 

288
00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,160
for instance on the political 
behaviour, the electorate, most 

289
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,320
people vote according to their 
perception of the state 

290
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,760
government. 
That means power already has 

291
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,960
shifted to the states. 
The ordinary people understand 

292
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:54,880
the centre of gravity is now in 
states. 

293
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,440
The national government is 
largely notional. 

294
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,360
It's important, it's critical. 
But in terms of political 

295
00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,840
discourse, if you really don't 
have the English speaking 

296
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,320
national media talking all the 
time about the power struggle in

297
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,680
Delhi, people actually are not 
bothered. 

298
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:15,120
The Assembly constituency is the
unit of politics in India and 

299
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,400
the state government is the 
government that people judge 

300
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,360
most of the time. 
And therefore strengthening 

301
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,680
federalism and further 
localising government 

302
00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,360
decentralisation of government 
to the third tier, effectively 

303
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,080
with accountability, will take 
away the opposition of national 

304
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,240
power. 
Will actually make us focus on 

305
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,080
what matters to our lives in 
terms of service, delivery, 

306
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,640
education, healthcare, the park 
in front of your house, the road

307
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,920
or the OR the traffic jams and 
so on. 

308
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,640
OK, fair enough. 
I don't completely agree with 

309
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,960
you, but should we bifurcate 
States? 

310
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,520
And could it help to keep away 
the north-south divide? 

311
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,560
There is no way you can have 
states the size of 20 crores and

312
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,200
15 crores. 
Call them provinces. 

313
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,320
They're too big. 
I remember making a presentation

314
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,440
to the Prime Minister, Rajiv 
Gandhi as a district magistrate,

315
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,680
I told him then, Mr. Prime 
Minister, district in India is 

316
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:09,960
larger than half the nations of 
the world. 

317
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,319
At the time, there were about 
160 a 170 countries, about 80 

318
00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:16,800
countries were smaller than an 
average district of India. 

319
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,200
I don't think the UP chief 
minister or chief secretary can 

320
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,640
even suddenly name all the 
districts or name all the 

321
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,800
members of parliament in their 
state or name all the district 

322
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,440
magistrates in the in the state.
So I think there is a case to to

323
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,480
have a moderate size. 
You know, I think we must have a

324
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,720
rule that five, five to seven 
crores. 

325
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,880
But we must also make it very 
clear to our people. 

326
00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:46,760
The state identity must not be 
so incredibly polarizing that no

327
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,320
many people feel it's a matter 
of life or death, Particularly 

328
00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,040
because of linguistic 
reorganisation. 

329
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,480
And given that, we must come to 
some agreement by which there 

330
00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:00,920
will be 0 difference in terms of
our lives and there will be fair

331
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,240
redistribution of resources. 
As we have seen in 

332
00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,560
entrepreneurship, big city now 
goes to one part of the country,

333
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,480
one new state, the other states 
will feel often. 

334
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:13,040
Therefore, we have to figure out
a way in which those city 

335
00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:17,640
revenues for a final period can 
be actually shared by all, or 

336
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:21,760
you can even have a completely 
different pattern of governance 

337
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:23,360
for the big cities in the 
country. 

338
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,240
So a lot of political 
negotiations required. 

339
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,240
But I think the short answer is 
yes, we have many of our states 

340
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,040
are too big and therefore 
smaller states, by common 

341
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,080
consent, without upsetting the 
constitutional balance in terms 

342
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:39,600
of English city organisations, 
etcetera, is both necessary and 

343
00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,840
welcome. 
And it will help the 

344
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,760
delimitation exercise also in 
some way. 

345
00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,600
If the problem is beyond 
language you don't feel 

346
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,040
culturally otherwise subjugated,
then it's easier to have a more 

347
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,640
rational public discourse and 
more peaceful resolution of 

348
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,640
issues. 
What would you say in this 

349
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:02,640
current scenario where you have,
as you said, little room for 

350
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,280
conciliation between the 
political parties and there is 

351
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,920
also a very clear political 
divide in terms of which parties

352
00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:10,960
in power and which isn't at the 
centre? 

353
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,120
So how does that even go forward
then? 

354
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:16,600
Should maybe it again be kicked 
down the road for 25 years? 

355
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:23,840
From purely from don't touch the
applecart point of view, down 

356
00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:25,760
the right to man. 
Actually by that time I will not

357
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,360
be there. 
I'm sure 25 years later I will 

358
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,920
not be answering these 
questions, So it's a very 

359
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:34,480
tempting option. 
But two things. 

360
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,640
One, whether you like it or not,
when there is a majority stable 

361
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,680
government at the national level
whose political interest 

362
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,320
probably will be better served 
by getting political weightage 

363
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,560
in proportion to the population,
because the regions where they 

364
00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:53,480
seem to have certain political 
strength, they are the ones 

365
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,120
which probably will gain the 
political clout in terms of 

366
00:19:56,120 --> 00:19:59,880
numbers in the parliament. 
It's somewhat unrealistic to 

367
00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,440
expect. 
That the party in power will act

368
00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,160
against self-interest. 
It is one thing I learnt in 

369
00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,000
life. 
It is that a reformer must never

370
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:11,600
argue with a political leader to
hurt his own interests. 

371
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,920
We must craft the agenda in such
a manner that their own sense of

372
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,160
their political interest and our
sense of the national interest, 

373
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,080
they both coincide. 
That is when real results 

374
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,040
happen. 
The second thing is one day 

375
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:29,080
rather we have to grapple with 
this and luckily, particularly 

376
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,080
in the last 25 years, for 30 
years in India in particular, 

377
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:36,720
but for broadly all over the 
world, we've learned that while 

378
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,240
population is a huge challenge, 
human society, we are coming to 

379
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,960
terms with that. 
In such a changing world, I 

380
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,880
think we must address this 
intelligently and calmly, in an 

381
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,000
unheary deliberation, rather 
than both sides between 

382
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,600
apocalyptic, you know, one side 
we'll talk about democratic 

383
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,120
rights and defy them. 
Another side we'll talk about 

384
00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,880
subjugation in term because of 
the minority, and punishment 

385
00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,680
because of population control. 
You can argue either way, but 

386
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,440
that's not the issue. 
We have to find an answer we can

387
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,000
live with. 
That's the way I would like to 

388
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,680
approach it. 
Given the timeline between now 

389
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,640
and the proposed delimitation 
period is a very short one, what

390
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,960
do you expect to see happen? 
See, a lot depends on the wisdom

391
00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:20,000
of the political leaders. 
It is not the people. 

392
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,040
People of India are extremely 
sensible. 

393
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,120
In my judgement, people of India
are extremely conciliatory. 

394
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,040
Accommodation, adjustment, 
coexistence, survival, 

395
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,160
compromise. 
It's part of our blood. 

396
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,600
It is politics that polarize us 
for their own gains. 

397
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,200
Tribalize us and that creates, 
you know, yes or no, black or 

398
00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,360
white situation. 
So a lot depends on the wisdom 

399
00:21:41,360 --> 00:21:44,760
of the political leaders, 
particularly those in doubt at 

400
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,280
the state or national level. 
If they recognise the interests 

401
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,840
of their respective states is 
perfectly legitimate or 

402
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,920
nationally, they have some point
of perfectly legitimate. 

403
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,280
But if they do it in a calm 
manner, based on evidence and 

404
00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,080
logic, and with an intention to 
resolve the issue rather than to

405
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,240
polarise the people, I think we 
can find a solution. 

406
00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:08,040
But if they deliberately provoke
animosities and make it a very 

407
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,400
loud and contentious issue, then
all bets are off. 

408
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,600
Doctor Jayaprakash Narayan says 
there is a validity to the 

409
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,960
regional party's fears that they
will not be consulted during the

410
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,200
delimitation process, especially
the Modi government returns to 

411
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,640
power after the 2024 polls. 
However, he does have some 

412
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,000
advice for a BJP government if 
it does come to power again in 

413
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,440
2024. 
My advice to the government 

414
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,000
would be if anybody cares to 
listen, look, it's not in your 

415
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,480
interest to polarize the country
in this manner, particularly in 

416
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,440
issues like this. 
Any issue polarisation is not in

417
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:43,760
your interest. 
But issues like this ultimately 

418
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,000
will be difficult to your own 
political future. 

419
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,320
If BJP has stakes in Karnataka, 
if BJP wants to grow in 

420
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:56,200
Telangana, if BJP is now making 
some efforts, let's say in Tamil

421
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,160
Nadu, these are not states where
you can write off, right? 

422
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,160
So it's not in your interest to 
permanently marginalise 

423
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,240
yourself. 
And two, you believe and I 

424
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,360
believe you believe in the unity
of India, your sense of 

425
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,680
nationalism. 
While we may disagree on some 

426
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,640
specifics, but we all want one 
thing and if BJP is genuinely 

427
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,720
patriotic, then BJP must want 
unity of India. 

428
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,600
So my advice to them would be 
plea in their interest not to 

429
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,680
make it a polarising issue and 
to meet the the concerns of the 

430
00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:32,080
people who are worried about 
what might happen halfway and 

431
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:41,520
reduce the temperature. 
Today's episode was produced by 

432
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,440
Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. 
For a daily spotlight on people,

433
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,240
ideas and stories that matter, 
subscribe to us. 

434
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:53,640
We're available on TOI, Spotify,
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435
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,800
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For any news tips, e-mail us at 

436
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,600
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