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From Indias largest newsroom, 
I'm Arun George and this is the 

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Times of India podcast. 
It was nearly a month after the 

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Supreme Courts landmark verdict 
that data on electoral bonds was

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made public. 
As of Saturday the 16th of 

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March, when we recorded this 
episode, we know who donated, 

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how much, who received and how 
much. 

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However, we don't know many of 
the donors. 

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Like we don't know which Yashoda
superspeciality hospital chain 

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donated over 100 crore rupees 
because three prominent hospital

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chains named Yashoda deny that 
they bought electoral bonds. 

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But there is greater detail 
coming. 

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The Supreme Court has insisted 
that the State Bank of India 

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share further details to allow 
correlation of who donated and 

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to which party. 
We also don't know how some of 

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the biggest donors to the 
electoral bond system managed to

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do it given the amount they 
donated was more than what they 

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officially said they made as 
profit. 

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Since the data came out. 
There are many who claim this 

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revelation undoes their donors 
privacy. 

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Some say it will spark a return 
of unaccounted cash and 

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political funding. 
Despite the government resisting

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every attempt at transparency on
electoral bonds, Home Minister 

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Amit Shah refuted criticism and 
claimed credit for a system 

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where donor names are being 
revealed. 

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Finance Minister Nirmala 
Sitaraman also struck back at 

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analysis which showed many 
companies bought electoral bonds

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soon after raids by the Income 
Tax or Enforcement Directorate. 

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Linking it with Ed, I think, is 
absolutely sitting and having a 

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cup of tea in the lounge and 
having a little merry chat. 

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However, the opposition says the
data only shows the 

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institutional rot within India. 
Congress leader Rahul Gandhi 

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claimed the government is using 
all its institutions to run an 

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extortion racket. 
Political. 

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A petition in the case which 
resulted in the electoral bond 

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system being struck down is the 
Association for Democratic 

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Reforms, or ADR. 
Retired Major General Anil Verma

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had featured in an earlier 
episode before the verdict to 

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layout what was at stake with 
electoral bonds. 

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We spoke with him again on 
Saturday, the 16th of March, to 

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understand how to decode the 
data that has been released so 

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far. 
We asked him what was the 

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biggest revelation for him so 
far, whether there is any 

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obvious illegality in the data 
that's out so far, and he also 

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suggested a potential 
alternative to OPEC political 

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funding systems. 
With regard to the electoral 

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bond data being released, is 
this the most data we've ever 

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had with regard to political 
funding? 

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No, I won't say so because you 
see political funding data we've

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been analysing for the last so 
many years, Electoral bonds 

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scheme was a new thing which was
introduced, but the earlier 

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systems of political funding 
were carrying on, you know, 

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direct donations through 
electoral trusts and all the 

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other systems which were there, 
cash or whatever. 

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But yes, the type of disclosure 
which has happened now, you 

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know, pertaining to of course 
the entire amount is still not 

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this thing. 
But still, out of the 16,500 

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crores worth donations through 
electoral bonds, 12,000 Some 

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crores details are at least 
available in the public domain, 

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thanks to the Supreme Court 
judgment. 

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So then, OK, with regards to the
data itself that is out there, A

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major question is, on the face 
of it, does the data reveal that

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there have been illegalities 
that have taken place? 

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See for that Arun, it will 
require detailed investigation 

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by, you know, experts because 
the scheme was designed in such 

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a way that it's very difficult 
to. 

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And the way the data has come 
out, you know, SBI was literally

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being kicked and pushed by the 
Supreme Court. 

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They were screaming and kicking 
also while giving it, but they 

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have given it. 
But there's a lot of confusion 

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still. 
You see, nobody from the State 

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Bank is there in the media or 
anywhere to give their except in

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the court, whatever they have 
said. 

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The other part is the political 
party say we don't know who the 

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donors are. 
They've got the money in their 

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current account from the bonds, 
but they say we don't know who 

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the donors are. 
Now that the Supreme Court has 

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directed that the State Bank 
should also give out the unique 

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numbers, the hidden numbers, 
which are there. 

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Now The thing is, let's see, 
once that comes out, will we be 

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able to do the matching or the 
corresponding of the, you know, 

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who the donor was and who the 
party was to which it went? 

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We'll have to wait and watch as 
to how that thing develops, but 

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it'll be interesting to see how 
it goes. 

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Even with your question about 
the current data, you must have 

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seen so many people have got on 
the job and they had prepared 

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for it. 
The moment the data comes out, 

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we'll start doing the matching. 
So the matching which is being 

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done currently is in the forms 
of raids which were carried out 

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on these companies. 
They are checking the balance 

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sheets of these companies, those
that are listed. 

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And by the way, there are not 
very many which are listed out 

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of the 300 odd, I believe just 
2025 are listed companies where 

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you can find the detail. 
I mean I'm not saying that this 

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is true or false, but this is 
what is coming out in the media.

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There is a company which has 
assets of 50 crores and it has 

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donated 90 crores electoral 
bond. 

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So these type of instances are 
coming out now to establish the 

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veracity and the correctness of 
this will require detailed 

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investigation. 
But it does point to some 

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serious misgivings in the way 
the funding has happened via the

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electoral bonds. 
This then brings the question 

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also that if there is like not 
on the face of it, there's no 

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obvious corruption. 
But why should we know then who 

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donated and how much to a 
political party? 

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Because there is this argument 
that there should be privacy 

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about it. 
For this, Arun, I'll take you 

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back to the ADR landmark 
judgment of 2002, 2003. 

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That is how ADR started. 
Incidentally, we are in the 25th

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year now, and this is the second
landmark judgment which has come

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about South. 
In the first one also, it was 

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the same issue about 
transparency and the voter's 

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right to know, because at that 
time there used to be no 

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affidavits. 
Our whole thing was that the 

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common man, the citizen, should 
know the antecedents and the 

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background of the candidates 
which the political parties are 

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fielding. 
Not that it has made much of a 

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difference. 
The criminality and muscle and 

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money power is on the rise after
every election. 

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That's a different thing. 
But that says something about 

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our society and our voters and 
our political parties. 

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It's not a compliment to them. 
So what I'm saying is the court 

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had upheld that and all the 
political parties at that time, 

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22 of them, had got together to 
oppose it. 

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The government, again, it was an
NDA government. 

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They passed an ordinance. 
President was Sushi Abdul Kalam.

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First time he returned it, 
second time he had to sign it 

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and then again ADR went to the 
Supreme Court and finally the 

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Supreme Court struck it down as 
unconstitutional. 

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That ordinance and that is how 
this thing came in the public 

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domain. 
So there also and that judgment 

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still holds good. 
There also the Supreme Court 

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Constitution bench had said that
the right to know is fundamental

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to this thing. 
So your question relating to the

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secrecy of the donors is not 
valid and this whole electoral 

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bond scheme was designed around 
this, that the donor's identity 

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should not be disclosed because 
of years of reprisals By 70 

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years system. 
How many reprisals have taken 

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place? 
Or even if they have, is it such

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a thing that you introduce a 
scheme which is more opaque? 

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Or you call it transparent but 
it is more opaque than the 

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previous system? 
With the data that has been 

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released so far, and we are 
still waiting for that 

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alphanumeric code which will 
allow the matching. 

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But what for you is the most 
significant finding so far? 

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Our whole thrust of the 
application which we had given 

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was that the common man, the 
citizen, the voter has a right 

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to know under that article of 
the Constitution, you know, and 

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that is what has been upheld. 
See first is the background 

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details of the candidate, the 
common man. 

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The voter should know. 
Similarly, where is the funding 

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coming from? 
The voter should know now with 

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such a interest which has been 
created around this, at least 

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people will know what type of 
funding is going on. 

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I mean if lottery kings are 
donating 1100 or 1200 or 1300 

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crores out of 16500 crores and 
they are loss making companies 

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which are so. 
So it puts a big question mark 

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on the political funding system 
of our political parties, right.

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So do we want to continue in 
this? 

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On one hand we say we are 
against corruption, we want to 

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root out black money, we want to
reduce the use of cash and all 

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that. 
But on the other side, under the

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table you are doing all these. 
So I mean, isn't there a need 

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for improvement in the whole 
system, more transparency, more 

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checks and balances, more 
disclosures, more regulation by 

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some, you know, I would say 
independent bodies? 

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One thing you pointed out is the
corporate governance issues that

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this data already raises. 
What is it that you're hoping to

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see in the coming days with the 
data getting more granular in 

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terms of what we can tell from 
it? 

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We are hoping that as the 
Supreme Court said also that 

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this scheme is scrapped. 
Now it is for you people to come

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up with a better scheme, which 
is less so. 

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System has to be evolved in a 
like I mentioned various things,

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accountability, transparency, 
checks and balances, disclosure.

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You know all these things have 
to be monitored by somebody. 

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You can't pay lip service to 
this. 

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OK, we are the 4th, 5th largest 
economy in the world, but we are

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spending more than the US 
elections of 2019. 

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When we spend in our general 
elections, look at the size of 

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their economy and our economy. 
We say we are 140 crores people.

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We have huge number of voters. 
So that is why we need more 

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money. 
Agreed. 

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No political party can function 
without funding. 

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No elections can be conducted 
without funding, without 

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expenditure. 
Agreed. 

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But there has to be some sort of
a limit. 

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Now there is no limit on the 
political party's expenditure. 

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They can spend any amount. 
There is a limit on the 

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candidate expenditure, but we 
all know that it is more often 

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breached than followed because 
in the expenditure reports which

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they submit after the elections,
nobody spends more than 60 to 

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65% of the limit laid down, 
whereas on ground we all know it

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is 10/20/50 times more than what
is shown in the report. 

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So there is this type of 
duplicity, hypocrisy and double 

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standards which are being 
followed and everybody's wink, 

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wink, OK, then you take the 
question of freebies, OK, cash 

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is given, kind they are giving 
or everything is giving. 

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Supreme Court judgments are 
there which declares it illegal.

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So I mean there is a mismatch 
between, you know, on one hand 

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you say the law will take its 
course, we follow the law, but 

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who's following the law? 
And then you come to the 

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question of seizures. 
The Election Commission staff, 

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if you see the last assembly 
elections of 2023, the seizures 

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went up by four to seven times 
in certain states. 

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And this is the tip of the 
iceberg. 

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We all know that, isn't it? 
I mean the actual amount which 

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goes around drugs, cash, liquor 
and what have you, it is 

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horrendous. 
I would say, you know, one is 

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election Commission has to be 
more proactive and the, you 

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know, the law enforcement 
authorities, unfortunately, they

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also get swayed by the political
party which is in power. 

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They do not do their job as 
they're supposed to do. 

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If everybody was to do their 
job, as they are supposed to do,

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a lot of things could be sorted 
out on their own. 

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One thing that ever since the 
Supreme Court judgment has come 

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out that political parties and 
many others would argue is that,

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oh, the death of the electoral 
bonds would mean that. 

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Political parties will. 
Fall back to black money, they 

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will. 
Just. 

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Take unaccounted for cash, which
will then flow into the system 

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anyway. 
What is your view on that? 

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See, my thing is it never 
stopped. 

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There were still raids being 
done on various people and you 

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saw mountains of cash still 
being found, counting machines 

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being deployed for days to 
count. 

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This logic, which the Solicitor 
General gave in the hearings in 

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the Supreme Court in October, 
November, have been demolished 

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by the Supreme Court, they said.
Where is the proof that the cash

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and the black money has reduced?
You are saying it has reduced 

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because of the electoral bonds. 
It hasn't. 

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That is why I've said there has 
to be a limit on the 

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expenditure. 
There have to be control on the 

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expenditure. 
Why do we need so much money and

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cash and this thing, and we say 
kid naying, this is the done 

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thing, black money, hoga badega.
Cash will increase. 

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Why should it? 
It requires A concerted efforts 

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on the part of the political 
parties and various other 

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organizations, the 
constitutional organizations and

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the civil society and the voters
to ensure that this thing is 

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sorted out. 
So then people say OK then what 

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is the solution? 
Do you stop corporate funding 

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like even in this data which has
come out 93% of the funding is 

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from corporates. 
Do you want your democracy to be

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run in such a fashion that the 
money is applied to the this 

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thing crony capitalism goes on 
and good for Pro is there and 

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whoever gives money, their 
projects are signed and deal is 

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done. 
Is that the way democracy should

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function or should it be a, you 
know, participatory direct 

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interaction with the voters and 
with people? 

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And then what do they want? 
Do those things improve the 

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governance? 
So the ultimate thing comes as 

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to how should the funding be 
done. 

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Now one of the suggestions which
is quite popular but which 

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unfortunately nobody does, I 
think even in the Law Commission

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report, 155th Law Commission 
report, it was recommended that 

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a fund could be set up. 
Now this fund could be either 

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managed by the Election 
Commission of India or they 

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could have a member in it and 
there could be an independent 

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body which could, you know this 
thing and let people donate into

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that fund. 
People meaning individuals, 

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corporates, firms, whoever, 
Indians, not foreigners. 

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Those are details which can be 
worked out. 

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You know which party get. 
Because one of the main 

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allegations in this was also the
unequal playing field. 

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We said it doesn't matter 
whether center Oregon states it 

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is whichever party was in power 
they were benefiting from the 

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electoral bond scheme. 
It is evident you have seen now 

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TMC and BJD and so on and so 
forth. 

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So why do the corporates give to
them? 

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For the simple reason that they 
expect something in return. 

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I mean, there's no, there's not 
rocket science. 

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So if you have a system where 
there is a particular fund and 

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then you workout a way, OK, 
depending on the vote share of 

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that party or whatever way, and 
then you distribute that money 

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to the political parties. 
But then the direct funding 

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system has to stop. 
If you introduce a fund, you 

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can't have, you know, like my 
cake, I'll eat. 

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And you know, this thing also. 
Yeah, both ways. 

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This is also one thing that many
donors have questioned and again

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this is on social media, so we 
don't know if the actual donors,

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but then why their identity 
should be revealed if they have 

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made political donations and 
then per SE making a political 

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donation isn't an illegal act, 
what would you say to that? 

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It is not an illegal act. 
But then why do they want to 

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hide their identity? 
It is because the pathetic state

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of our political system where a 
donor feels afraid of reprisals 

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by the other people. 
But like I said 70 years earlier

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also this system had been 
carrying on. 

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So why should a person, you 
know, feel afraid of any 

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00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:23,920
reprisals? 
It is more to do with the quid 

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pro quo and this thing, you 
know, wherein they want to hide 

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that. 
And by the way, I mean my 

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experience last 10 years, I have
seen all the major donors. 

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They donate to the major 
parties. 

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They may give a little extra to 
somebody, but by and large they 

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keep everybody happy because you
never know tomorrow who will 

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come into power. 
Today's episode was produced by 

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00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:56,920
Jayaraj Singh and Sahil Gupta. 
For a daily spotlight on people,

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00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,720
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00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:04,560
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