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From Indias largest newsroom, 
I'm Arun George and this is the 

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Times of India podcast. 
Gandhi film Bani curiosity. 

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It was part of a larger answer 
about the opposition parties 

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failing to take pride in Indian 
heritage. 

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But Prime Minister Narendra Modi
statement on Mahatma Gandhi has 

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sparked a whole lot of outrage. 
In an interview to a television 

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channel, the Prime Minister 
claimed that during prior non 

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BJP governments, the 
contributions of Mohandas 

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Karamchand Gandhi were not 
adequately publicized and it was

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the release of the 1982 film 
Gandhi that took his 

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inspirational life story to the 
world. 

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In today's episode, Make Tali 
Galka Dukar is in conversation 

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with Tushar Gandhi about the 
continuing legacy of the man who

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we refer to as the Mahatma. 
Tushar Gandhi, who is the great 

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grandson of the Mahatma, 
explains how the world still 

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views the man credited with 
leading India to freedom from 

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colonial rule. 
Alka started by asking him how 

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he views the Prime Minister 
statement. 

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Prime Minister Narendra Modi has
said that the world got to know 

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about Mahatma Gandhi after 
watching Richard Attenberg's 

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film, which was made in 1982. 
What is your response to the 

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Prime Minister who has linked 
Gandhi's legacy to a film? 

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It's reprehensible. 
But Alka, you know my first 

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response when this was brought 
to my notice and I saw the 

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excerpts of his interview, I 
burst out laughing because 

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unless one treated it with 
humour, it was too disturbing. 

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I said, what else do you do when
you realise that for 10 years we

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have such an ignorant person as 
our Prime Minister? 

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What else can you do? 
You know, it's such a tragedy 

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otherwise, and to think of it 
that, you know, even he made 

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that allegation, but he doesn't 
even bother to realize that in 

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his own statement, he has given 
all the clues to point out or 

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catch out his lies. 
He named Martin Luther King and 

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Mandela as being more, more 
popular than Bapu. 

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And both of them have always, in
their writings and in their 

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speeches, have credited Bapu as 
being their iconic leader, their

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inspiration and having worked 
according to the ideology and 

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practices of Gandhi. 
Prime Minister Modi has also 

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said, and I quote that in the 
last 75 years, was it not our 

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responsibility to let the whole 
world know of Mahatma Gandhi? 

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I'm sorry, but nobody knew of 
him. 

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What is your response or opinion
about Modi's comment that in the

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75 years India failed to take 
Gandhi's legacy forward? 

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And he gave an example that it 
was only Richard Attenborough's 

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film Gandhi that brought him to 
the World Centre stage. 

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And the world suddenly realized,
Oh my God, there's Gandhi. 

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You know, I was, it's very 
ironical. 

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One of my friends sent me a 
cartoon by RK Laxman which had 

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appeared in Times of India. 
Must have been around the time 

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when the movie was released 
because it shows a theatre and 

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it shows two Neta types walking 
out. 

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And the poster above says, you 
know Gandhi, the film is being 

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screened and one of them says 
what a fantastic film. 

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And he says, I believe it's 
based on a true character kind 

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of thing. 
And so when I got that, I 

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tweeted that and I said Modi 
coming out of the theatre after 

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seeing Gandhi the film, because 
it was appropriate that he would

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say that. 
Now, having said that, you know,

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he blames the Congress for not 
doing enough for popularising 

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Bapu. 
But the film got made because 

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finally Indira Gandhi and her 
government invested money into 

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the making of the film when 
nobody was willing to produce 

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it. 
Even that allegation that the 

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Congress didn't do anything and 
it was just the film, well, the 

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film was produced by the 
government headed by the 

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Congress. 
These kind of things are very 

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easily found out. 
Forget about everything else. 

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Forget about the fact that from 
1930 onwards, Bapu was featured 

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on the cover of Time magazine 
multiple times. 

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In 1930, Time magazine voted him
as the person of the year. 

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He was featured in Life magazine
after 1930. 

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Most of the documentary news 
producing companies of the West 

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used to have a crew following 
him wherever he went. 

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And there's so much footage of 
his, even when you see the film 

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Gandhi at certain places, 
Richard Attenborough has used 

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what was at that time the Royal 
News Bulletin, where they used 

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to make these documentaries and 
show them. 

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He was constantly in the public 
limelight. 

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I don't know where what prompted
him to make such a stupid 

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statement on TV. 
But I, you know, I marvel at the

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anchors, the three of them. 
They sat through that whole 

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program listening to this man 
and not a emotion flickered on 

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their face. 
If I was in that room, I would 

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have been rolling with laughter 
on the ground. 

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Tushar Ji, could you tell us 
about records of correspondence 

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between Gandhiji and world 
leaders? 

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Just one instance when he was 
murdered in 1948. 

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If you Google world tributes to 
Gandhi, you'll get a list of so 

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many documents and you'll 
realise that tributes poured in 

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from all across the globe to 
Bapu. 

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Not just politicians and 
political leadership, but social

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leaders, iconic people, writers,
poets, wrote poetry expressing 

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their grief from all over the 
world. 

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Common people sent messages and 
things. 

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They're all there in the 
collected works, a lot of them 

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that is on Google, available on 
Google. 

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And you realize that people 
really from all walks of life 

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were admiring this man and were 
grieving his loss and justice. 

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That shows it couldn't have been
just that. 

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You know, one day news came and 
everybody thought, no, no, this 

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news I have to link with it was 
a heartfelt outpouring of grief.

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And in his lifetime, he was 
corresponding with world 

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leaders. 
He was corresponding with 

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government heads. 
He was correspondent with 

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eminent philosophers. 
Parliamentarians would meet him.

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Heads of states would meet him. 
Royalty would meet him. 

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So it wasn't as if nobody knew 
about him, and it wasn't as if 

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the Government of India had to, 
you know, do a publicity 

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campaign for the world to notice
him. 

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He was noticed in his lifetime 
itself, early enough in his 

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lifetime to become a world 
iconic leader. 

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I keep repeating myself, but I 
think we must all pity our Prime

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Minister for his pettiness. 
This is an example or an 

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exhibition of his pettiness. 
You know, he can't fathom the 

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greatness of people before it, 
and he's continuously taking 

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potshots at them. 
Could you talk about what you 

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meant by this pettiness? 
And also, why would you think 

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that exists presently? 
See, The thing is that the 

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pettiness arises from the fact 
that he feels that Gandhi needs 

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a prop to be popular. 
He's almost making an allegation

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that his work meant nothing. 
That is the pettiness where you 

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don't realise that the man had 
earned his iconic status by his 

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actions in his lifetime. 
He did not need a PR department.

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He did not need a government 
sponsorship. 

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He did not need a fund 
allocation to be made into an 

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iconic person worldwide. 
He had earned that through the 

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sheer dint of his work in his 
lifetime. 

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So the pettiness is that that 
statement of Narendra Modi 

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attempts to negate a whole 
lifetime of revolutionary work. 

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So Tusharja, as we know Gandhiji
had stayed in Gujarat, Pune, 

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Delhi, Vardha, then Mumbai. 
So could you give us some 

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information or some say examples
or anecdotes that how many 

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people are visiting these places
now, even after so many years of

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Gandhi's assassination, so that 
can tell us something about his 

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legacy and how many followers he
has? 

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When I go to Ahmedabad, I used 
to go and sit. 

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Now, I won't be doing it 
unfortunately, but I would go 

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and sit in Sabarmati Ashram at 
Radheikunj, just quietly sit in 

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a corner and watch people. 
And I would see the amount of 

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people voluntarily coming over 
there every day, whether it was 

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a weekday, whether it was 
vacation time, whether it was 

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holiday, it didn't matter. 
There was a constant stream of 

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people walking in, paying their 
respects, looking at the house 

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and things. 
I've gone to Wardha, then every 

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time I go there, I've seen 
people, groups of people coming 

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there and spending, you know, 
half a day or a full day over 

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there, picnicking over there and
things going into Bakutir, going

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into Bapukutir. 
And you know, it was almost like

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a pilgrimage. 
And as soon as they would find 

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out that I was on the campus, 
they would start looking for me 

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and come to line up everywhere. 
Porbandar, the same thing. 

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Manibhavan. 
Whenever I go to Manibhavan, now

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that tourist guides know of me, 
if they spot me and if they've 

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brought a group of tourists with
them, they'll tell the tourists 

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that he's the great grandson. 
And then everybody comes and 

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mobs me. 
So there is this innate 

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curiosity that I have seen, and 
I've seen a lot of people 

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getting very emotional also by 
just being in those places. 

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Even after so many years when 
these places are mostly sterile 

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monuments. 
There is nothing of the life of 

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Bai and Bapu in anyone of them 
and yet you see them getting 

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very touched by the whole 
experience kind of thing. 

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And talking about Gandhian 
philosophy, do you have any idea

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like how many countries are 
following the philosophy or how 

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many languages the Gandhi's 
books have been translated so 

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far and since when? 
His biography has been 

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translated into most, almost all
major languages spoken by by 

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mankind. 
Between the time that he was 

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murdered to the centenary in 
1969, all this thing was 

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happening very well. 
It's very difficult for 

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countries and governments to 
function with honesty, the 

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Gandhi's ideology in total, 
because if they were to, then 

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they would have to completely 
scrap their defence budget 

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completely, get rid of their 
armed forces and things. 

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And practically that's not 
possible today. 

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Business schools teach Gandhi as
a managerial example. 

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There are Gandhi study centres 
in many universities all over 

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the world. 
There are Gandhi reference 

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sections in universities all 
over the world, and so in the 

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academic world the study of 
Gandhian ideology is worldwide. 

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You have been invited at many 
places to speak about Gandhi's 

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legacy and Gandhian philosophy. 
Your recent book also basically 

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chronicles what happened in his 
last days. 

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Let's kill Gandhi. 
So could you tell us about where

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all you have been to speak about
Gandhiji? 

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Oh, I've forgotten. 
You know, people look at my 

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passport and they they say, why 
do you travel so much? 

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I've got stamps from all over 
the world. 

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You know, I'll give you an 
example. 

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We had gone to Jordan and we had
a free day from the conference, 

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so we decided to go to the 
market. 

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So we walked into a dry fruit 
store and there was this old man

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who was the owner and we were 
looking at the drive routes and 

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we were fascinated because of 
the range of drive routes. 

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And once again amongst each 
other we were talking in Hindi 

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and the old man looked at us and
he said India, Yes, India. 

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He came out from behind the 
counter and he says, Gandhi's 

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children. 
And he hugged us. 

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And I quickly signalled to the 
others. 

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I said, don't tell him who I am.
So after we bought everything 

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and we left, you know, one of my
companions couldn't resist it. 

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So he sneaked back into the 
shop. 

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And he said, you know, the guy 
who bought the dry fruits just 

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now from you is Gandhi's great 
grandson. 

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And that man ran out of his 
shop. 

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He hugged me and he cried. 
He said I'd never imagined that 

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I would meet a descendant of 
Gandhi. 

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He would come to my shop. 
I've had these experiences many 

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places, and not one of them said
that they discovered Gandhi 

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because of the film made by 
Richard Attenborough. 

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What lesson of Mahatma Gandhi's 
is the most relevant for you in 

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this present time in India and 
for the world? 

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Post Modi's time, I think the 
only lesson that we have to 

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relearn is being honest and 
truthful because we have 

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institutionalized lying. 
So I think that's the most 

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important lesson that we need to
reteach India to be truthful. 

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Today's episode was produced by 
Jayaraj Singh and Sahil Gupta. 

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For a daily spotlight on people,
ideas and stories that matter, 

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00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,600
subscribe to us. 
We're available on the Times of 

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India website, Spotify, Apple, 
Amazon, or wherever else you get

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00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,240
your podcast. 
For any new steps of feedback, 

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00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:33,240
mail me at Arun George at 
Timesgroup. 

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Dot com.