From Indias largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the
Times of India podcast. Gandhi film Bani curiosity.
It was part of a larger answer about the opposition parties
failing to take pride in Indian heritage.
But Prime Minister Narendra Modi statement on Mahatma Gandhi has
sparked a whole lot of outrage. In an interview to a television
channel, the Prime Minister claimed that during prior non
BJP governments, the contributions of Mohandas
Karamchand Gandhi were not adequately publicized and it was
the release of the 1982 film Gandhi that took his
inspirational life story to the world.
In today's episode, Make Tali Galka Dukar is in conversation
with Tushar Gandhi about the continuing legacy of the man who
we refer to as the Mahatma. Tushar Gandhi, who is the great
grandson of the Mahatma, explains how the world still
views the man credited with leading India to freedom from
colonial rule. Alka started by asking him how
he views the Prime Minister statement.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi has said that the world got to know
about Mahatma Gandhi after watching Richard Attenberg's
film, which was made in 1982. What is your response to the
Prime Minister who has linked Gandhi's legacy to a film?
It's reprehensible. But Alka, you know my first
response when this was brought to my notice and I saw the
excerpts of his interview, I burst out laughing because
unless one treated it with humour, it was too disturbing.
I said, what else do you do when you realise that for 10 years we
have such an ignorant person as our Prime Minister?
What else can you do? You know, it's such a tragedy
otherwise, and to think of it that, you know, even he made
that allegation, but he doesn't even bother to realize that in
his own statement, he has given all the clues to point out or
catch out his lies. He named Martin Luther King and
Mandela as being more, more popular than Bapu.
And both of them have always, in their writings and in their
speeches, have credited Bapu as being their iconic leader, their
inspiration and having worked according to the ideology and
practices of Gandhi. Prime Minister Modi has also
said, and I quote that in the last 75 years, was it not our
responsibility to let the whole world know of Mahatma Gandhi?
I'm sorry, but nobody knew of him.
What is your response or opinion about Modi's comment that in the
75 years India failed to take Gandhi's legacy forward?
And he gave an example that it was only Richard Attenborough's
film Gandhi that brought him to the World Centre stage.
And the world suddenly realized, Oh my God, there's Gandhi.
You know, I was, it's very ironical.
One of my friends sent me a cartoon by RK Laxman which had
appeared in Times of India. Must have been around the time
when the movie was released because it shows a theatre and
it shows two Neta types walking out.
And the poster above says, you know Gandhi, the film is being
screened and one of them says what a fantastic film.
And he says, I believe it's based on a true character kind
of thing. And so when I got that, I
tweeted that and I said Modi coming out of the theatre after
seeing Gandhi the film, because it was appropriate that he would
say that. Now, having said that, you know,
he blames the Congress for not doing enough for popularising
Bapu. But the film got made because
finally Indira Gandhi and her government invested money into
the making of the film when nobody was willing to produce
it. Even that allegation that the
Congress didn't do anything and it was just the film, well, the
film was produced by the government headed by the
Congress. These kind of things are very
easily found out. Forget about everything else.
Forget about the fact that from 1930 onwards, Bapu was featured
on the cover of Time magazine multiple times.
In 1930, Time magazine voted him as the person of the year.
He was featured in Life magazine after 1930.
Most of the documentary news producing companies of the West
used to have a crew following him wherever he went.
And there's so much footage of his, even when you see the film
Gandhi at certain places, Richard Attenborough has used
what was at that time the Royal News Bulletin, where they used
to make these documentaries and show them.
He was constantly in the public limelight.
I don't know where what prompted him to make such a stupid
statement on TV. But I, you know, I marvel at the
anchors, the three of them. They sat through that whole
program listening to this man and not a emotion flickered on
their face. If I was in that room, I would
have been rolling with laughter on the ground.
Tushar Ji, could you tell us about records of correspondence
between Gandhiji and world leaders?
Just one instance when he was murdered in 1948.
If you Google world tributes to Gandhi, you'll get a list of so
many documents and you'll realise that tributes poured in
from all across the globe to Bapu.
Not just politicians and political leadership, but social
leaders, iconic people, writers, poets, wrote poetry expressing
their grief from all over the world.
Common people sent messages and things.
They're all there in the collected works, a lot of them
that is on Google, available on Google.
And you realize that people really from all walks of life
were admiring this man and were grieving his loss and justice.
That shows it couldn't have been just that.
You know, one day news came and everybody thought, no, no, this
news I have to link with it was a heartfelt outpouring of grief.
And in his lifetime, he was corresponding with world
leaders. He was corresponding with
government heads. He was correspondent with
eminent philosophers. Parliamentarians would meet him.
Heads of states would meet him. Royalty would meet him.
So it wasn't as if nobody knew about him, and it wasn't as if
the Government of India had to, you know, do a publicity
campaign for the world to notice him.
He was noticed in his lifetime itself, early enough in his
lifetime to become a world iconic leader.
I keep repeating myself, but I think we must all pity our Prime
Minister for his pettiness. This is an example or an
exhibition of his pettiness. You know, he can't fathom the
greatness of people before it, and he's continuously taking
potshots at them. Could you talk about what you
meant by this pettiness? And also, why would you think
that exists presently? See, The thing is that the
pettiness arises from the fact that he feels that Gandhi needs
a prop to be popular. He's almost making an allegation
that his work meant nothing. That is the pettiness where you
don't realise that the man had earned his iconic status by his
actions in his lifetime. He did not need a PR department.
He did not need a government sponsorship.
He did not need a fund allocation to be made into an
iconic person worldwide. He had earned that through the
sheer dint of his work in his lifetime.
So the pettiness is that that statement of Narendra Modi
attempts to negate a whole lifetime of revolutionary work.
So Tusharja, as we know Gandhiji had stayed in Gujarat, Pune,
Delhi, Vardha, then Mumbai. So could you give us some
information or some say examples or anecdotes that how many
people are visiting these places now, even after so many years of
Gandhi's assassination, so that can tell us something about his
legacy and how many followers he has?
When I go to Ahmedabad, I used to go and sit.
Now, I won't be doing it unfortunately, but I would go
and sit in Sabarmati Ashram at Radheikunj, just quietly sit in
a corner and watch people. And I would see the amount of
people voluntarily coming over there every day, whether it was
a weekday, whether it was vacation time, whether it was
holiday, it didn't matter. There was a constant stream of
people walking in, paying their respects, looking at the house
and things. I've gone to Wardha, then every
time I go there, I've seen people, groups of people coming
there and spending, you know, half a day or a full day over
there, picnicking over there and things going into Bakutir, going
into Bapukutir. And you know, it was almost like
a pilgrimage. And as soon as they would find
out that I was on the campus, they would start looking for me
and come to line up everywhere. Porbandar, the same thing.
Manibhavan. Whenever I go to Manibhavan, now
that tourist guides know of me, if they spot me and if they've
brought a group of tourists with them, they'll tell the tourists
that he's the great grandson. And then everybody comes and
mobs me. So there is this innate
curiosity that I have seen, and I've seen a lot of people
getting very emotional also by just being in those places.
Even after so many years when these places are mostly sterile
monuments. There is nothing of the life of
Bai and Bapu in anyone of them and yet you see them getting
very touched by the whole experience kind of thing.
And talking about Gandhian philosophy, do you have any idea
like how many countries are following the philosophy or how
many languages the Gandhi's books have been translated so
far and since when? His biography has been
translated into most, almost all major languages spoken by by
mankind. Between the time that he was
murdered to the centenary in 1969, all this thing was
happening very well. It's very difficult for
countries and governments to function with honesty, the
Gandhi's ideology in total, because if they were to, then
they would have to completely scrap their defence budget
completely, get rid of their armed forces and things.
And practically that's not possible today.
Business schools teach Gandhi as a managerial example.
There are Gandhi study centres in many universities all over
the world. There are Gandhi reference
sections in universities all over the world, and so in the
academic world the study of Gandhian ideology is worldwide.
You have been invited at many places to speak about Gandhi's
legacy and Gandhian philosophy. Your recent book also basically
chronicles what happened in his last days.
Let's kill Gandhi. So could you tell us about where
all you have been to speak about Gandhiji?
Oh, I've forgotten. You know, people look at my
passport and they they say, why do you travel so much?
I've got stamps from all over the world.
You know, I'll give you an example.
We had gone to Jordan and we had a free day from the conference,
so we decided to go to the market.
So we walked into a dry fruit store and there was this old man
who was the owner and we were looking at the drive routes and
we were fascinated because of the range of drive routes.
And once again amongst each other we were talking in Hindi
and the old man looked at us and he said India, Yes, India.
He came out from behind the counter and he says, Gandhi's
children. And he hugged us.
And I quickly signalled to the others.
I said, don't tell him who I am. So after we bought everything
and we left, you know, one of my companions couldn't resist it.
So he sneaked back into the shop.
And he said, you know, the guy who bought the dry fruits just
now from you is Gandhi's great grandson.
And that man ran out of his shop.
He hugged me and he cried. He said I'd never imagined that
I would meet a descendant of Gandhi.
He would come to my shop. I've had these experiences many
places, and not one of them said that they discovered Gandhi
because of the film made by Richard Attenborough.
What lesson of Mahatma Gandhi's is the most relevant for you in
this present time in India and for the world?
Post Modi's time, I think the only lesson that we have to
relearn is being honest and truthful because we have
institutionalized lying. So I think that's the most
important lesson that we need to reteach India to be truthful.
Today's episode was produced by Jayaraj Singh and Sahil Gupta.
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