1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,680 From Indias largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:16,040 Times of India podcast. Just a warning. 3 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,840 Today's episode deals with themes of online sexual abuse 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:20,880 and abuse. If you know a child who has 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,760 faced online sexual abuse, you can call the Merry Trust Line on 6 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:30,400 636-317-6363. I'll repeat that it's 7 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:38,400 636-317-6363. Two cases have recently brought 8 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,360 the spotlight on those under the age of 18 when they're accused 9 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,120 in criminal cases. The 1st and the one that's made 10 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,120 more headlines is the Pune case where the son of a builder 11 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,040 resulted in the death of two people while driving a sports 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:51,840 car. The 2nd is the case of an 13 00:00:51,840 --> 00:00:55,240 Uttarakhand teen who was put in an observation home after a girl 14 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,560 he knew committed suicide because he had shared explicit 15 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,960 videos of her. In today's episode, we're 16 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,880 looking at both cases in terms of what is the way forward in 17 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,840 dealing with children who find themselves facing the criminal 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:09,400 justice system. My colleague Ambika Pandit at 19 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,280 The Times of India spoke with experts to examine the issues 20 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,240 with having children accused of crimes being treated as adult 21 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:16,960 criminals and punished accordingly. 22 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,840 She also examines online abuse involving teenagers and what the 23 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,360 problems are with how we, the adults, deal with such cases. 24 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,800 She also looked at whether teenagers accused in such cases 25 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:30,520 are beyond redemption. That is, they're destined for a 26 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,320 life of crime. But first, the Uttarakhand case. 27 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,240 The Uttarakhand case made headlines after the Supreme 28 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:39,400 Court went against the norm of granting bail to juveniles in 29 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,480 retention. The boy in this case had 30 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,760 allegedly circulated obscene videos of his classmate, a 14 31 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,400 year old girl, which her father said drove her to die by 32 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,720 suicide. The boys plea for bail was 33 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,760 rejected by a juvenile justice board and the Uttarakhand High 34 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,760 Court. The Supreme Court also rejected 35 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,840 his plea, seeking that he be released from a reform home and 36 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,920 into his mother's custody. The High Court had rejected his 37 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,400 release on the ground that he was an undisciplined child 38 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,360 keeping bad company and that he required disciplining. 39 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,160 One of our guests on today's episode doesn't agree with this 40 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,600 order. What worries me is the reasoning 41 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,560 behind the bail sort of not being given to the juvenile in 42 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,280 the Uttarakhand case. In the Uttarakhand case, I read 43 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,960 the judgment and I think the court takes an extremely 44 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,880 parental stance. And I think it's sort of like 45 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,320 the same reason, like, why a lot of parents who corporally sort 46 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,760 of punish a child give, you know, this sort of punishment 47 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,480 will improve the child's behaviour. 48 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,720 And I think the reasons given are not extremely viable. 49 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,160 And I think the court is sort of taking a very parental stance 50 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,720 and not looking at it in terms of how is this materially going 51 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:55,400 to affect the case, right. The court cites such sort of 52 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,760 things as the boy will fall into bad behaviour. 53 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,960 He has behaved previously like, you know, badly in school. 54 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,080 I'm not here to issue like a character certificate on like 55 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:06,560 the child in conflict with the law. 56 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,200 But I don't think these are sufficient grounds to deny bail 57 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,400 to like a 15 year old. There can be cases where bail 58 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,560 can be denied, but I don't think those conditions are being met. 59 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,120 That's Siddharth Pillai who's the Co founder and director at 60 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,000 the Rights Action Technology Inclusion or Rathi Foundation. 61 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,000 The Mumbai based organization works to address the issue of 62 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,280 violence against children and women online and its effects 63 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,800 offline. The RATI Foundation also runs a 64 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,160 helpline called the Merry Trust Line that helps children facing 65 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,520 online harm. That's the number we dread out. 66 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,040 At the start of today's episode, Sinak Pillai tells Ambika Pandit 67 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,560 that one big problem in such cases is that most victims of 68 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:50,240 online sexual abuse struggle to talk about the incidents even on 69 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,040 an anonymous helpline. Because of the shame associated, 70 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,240 they find it very difficult to share, right? 71 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:02,040 So our helpline, basically we take cases of cyberbullying, 72 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:05,880 which may not involve sexual content and cases of intimate 73 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,480 content that has been released or threatened to be released 74 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:10,760 without consent, which is in this case. 75 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,000 So even when a victim who's reaching out for intimate 76 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,680 content, they introduce as themselves as oh, I'm suffering 77 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:22,280 from cyberbullying, unless you sort of like build a rappo, the 78 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:25,200 victim will not be able to disclose or, you know, Wiz be 79 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,600 hesitant to disclose that Oh, my content has been leaked. 80 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,360 And I do think that, like, you know, other systems that the 81 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,800 victim could reach out, they do have a trust deficit. 82 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,120 Siddharth says that in such cases, the child who may have 83 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,560 shared explicit material first has to reveal to an adult that 84 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:42,480 they have shared such photos or videos. 85 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,360 Then they have to face the blame or may be shamed by various 86 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,480 adults they seek help from, including possibly their parents 87 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,280 or the police. And all this happens while they 88 00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:54,840 are dealing with the threat that the photos or videos are being 89 00:04:54,840 --> 00:04:58,400 widely shared on the Internet. When the victim calls her 90 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,360 counselor, she constantly tells her counselor, I am sorry, I am 91 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:04,880 sorry. So a large part of what a 92 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,320 counselor does is convince the victim that see, what you did is 93 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,880 perhaps like, you know, like normal for your age, right? 94 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,120 You sent across an intimate photograph and not all of them 95 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,040 will be completely nudes as well, right? 96 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,800 So we will tell them you sent across an intimate photograph 97 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,400 and it's not your fault. So I think from the victim's 98 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,120 perspective, one of the things that really drives their 99 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,120 emotional upheaval and why they feel stressed is because they 100 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,160 feel it is their fault. I would like you to also tell us 101 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,920 about what happens in this case, you know, with the accused, 102 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:41,640 because he's also turning into this bully now who's not just 103 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,200 indulging in the crime but is also now trying to remove the 104 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:49,240 victim away from being a complainant and whatnot. 105 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:55,280 Most cases, victims are girls and the perpetrators are boys. 106 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,080 And in many of our cases they have maybe a previous 107 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,320 relationship or they have got into a relationship online, 108 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,760 right? So I think girls are aware that 109 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:09,360 if you send content, it may be stored on his phone, it may be 110 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,640 used to leak. So that guard is extremely up 111 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,520 even in like high profile cases, like you know, like you can see 112 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,640 the Prajwal Revana case, right? It's mostly a screen recording. 113 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,120 So what victims will consent to is like, I won't send you 114 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,920 anything permanent on your phone because they are aware that this 115 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:26,880 is an issue, but I'm still in love with you. 116 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:28,400 I may have a relationship with you. 117 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,280 So let's get on a video call or I will send you a one time 118 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:33,160 message. Or like, you know, they take a 119 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:34,920 promise that the content will be deleted. 120 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,720 But what the perpetrator does is that they don't keep this 121 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,240 promise and they break this promise. 122 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,600 It's also a power dynamic that once I have someone's 123 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,040 photograph, if I need them to do anything, I can give them the 124 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,000 dum key of, you know, I will leak your photograph, Meet me 125 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:50,760 today in the evening. Girl refuses. 126 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,440 I'll say, OK, I'm gonna release your photograph, right? 127 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:57,200 And then that power dynamic is established and then it slides 128 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:01,840 progressively into abuse. So in most cases, one of the 129 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,840 threats is that if you tell anyone, I'll leak, and then 130 00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:09,080 there is a demand that if you don't want me to leak, send me 131 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,560 more content. And then again, it goes back to 132 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,200 if you tell anyone you leak. So then you entrap the victim in 133 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,360 the cycle of isolation and cycle of abuse. 134 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,600 And then it becomes extremely difficult for the victim to 135 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,080 break it, you know, because now there is much more content than 136 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:26,200 before. So in this manner, it's very 137 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,440 similar to how financial fraud is, right? 138 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:30,880 Like you get blackmailed, you send something, then they 139 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,680 blackmail you again. How many minors do you get on 140 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:40,280 both sides? Or is it mostly a grown up adult 141 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,560 abusing a young victim? What is the age profile? 142 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,240 Do we see a lot of minors involved in this? 143 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,400 In the developmental sense, right, You get into a risk 144 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,600 taking age like, you know, you know, I'm going to get into 145 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,320 trouble, but I'll still do this, right? 146 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:01,200 It can be like smoking or like doing a stunt on bikes, but you 147 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,280 will still do it. So that is your risk taking age 148 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:05,840 where your brain is still developing very clearly. 149 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:10,040 Our data shows that children between the age of 13 and up to 150 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,560 like, you know, young people till the age of 25 are the 151 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,120 majority of our cases, you know, 85%. 152 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,480 And I know like legally this becomes a bit weird because 153 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,000 those under 18 are regarded as children and 19 to 25 will be 154 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,560 regarded as young adults or perhaps adults. 155 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:29,600 Now, if you look at only 18, under 1830% of our cases have 156 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,280 minor victims. And if you look at like 157 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,559 perpetrators once again, like you know, around 25 to 30% are 158 00:08:36,799 --> 00:08:40,480 minor perpetrators, right? Most of the perpetrators are 159 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,760 known to the victims. Like I think also in the 160 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,160 Uttarakhand case, right, they are in their immediate 161 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:47,720 neighbourhood. So in terms of like the profile 162 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:53,040 of perpetrators, like let's say about only 48% are strangers. 163 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:57,680 So people they've met online and 52% are known individuals. 164 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,560 Mostly they are ex partners. See that Pillai says that in 165 00:09:02,560 --> 00:09:06,240 most cases involving teenage boys, it's mostly entrapment in 166 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,360 sexual extortion cases. Those are the sort of cases 167 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,400 widely prevalent right now and involve morph videos, messages 168 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,280 and calls on chat apps like WhatsApp and others. 169 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,320 There's an international research that young boys get 170 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,600 groomed within 20 seconds. And we thought it was like, you 171 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,440 know, a slightly exaggerated research, but then we started 172 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,800 getting screenshots, right? Like, so it's just like, are you 173 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:30,800 sex interested? Are you sex interested three 174 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,640 times and the boy has already got on a call. 175 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,920 But for like to groom a girl or to fasao a girl, you first get 176 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,160 into a relationship, then you demand the photographs. 177 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,440 So the process is longer. So I think in most of these 178 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,760 relationship abuse cases, the victims are largely women and 179 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,920 the perpetrators are boys. But in sextortion cases, which 180 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,920 also involves child sexual abuse material, the victims are more 181 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,640 boys, but the perpetrators are like organized criminals. 182 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,960 Siddharth Pillai says that there are things we can do to make 183 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,600 things easier for the victims of online sexual abuse. 184 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,560 He says the starting point is how police and online platforms 185 00:10:05,560 --> 00:10:08,200 hosting such videos react to complaints. 186 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,560 We've had cases where the police is looking at the content in 187 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:14,880 front of the girl, then the girl is expected to give a statement 188 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,680 in front of that same police. The police has looked through 189 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:20,200 her entire phone. So I think it's not very easy 190 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:22,200 for the victim to even register a case. 191 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:24,480 The police must be more friendly. 192 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,760 I think like, you know, the police, like in a lot of our 193 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,880 cases, even when the victims approach the police stations, 194 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,280 the cases are not taken on board, you know, because 195 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,760 sometimes, like, you know, in online, it's like, oh, we don't 196 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,120 know where the perpetrator is, so we will not register the 197 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,560 case. Second, the biggest pain point 198 00:10:39,560 --> 00:10:42,840 is the content must come down, right? 199 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,880 So who does it? So currently, it's vague. 200 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,560 A lot of people believe the police will issue content 201 00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:49,600 takedown orders, but the police does not do it. 202 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,840 So there is a lack of communication from the police to 203 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,480 the platforms as to like, you know, remove this content. 204 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:57,640 Even the platforms need to do more, right? 205 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:01,320 Like we've had a case of cyber bullying where the perpetrator 206 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,720 kept making new accounts on the same platform for over a year. 207 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,800 So can the platform take like a bigger cognizance of the issue 208 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,680 and ensure that this guy never makes it really challenging for 209 00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:14,640 him to make another account because just udawing our account 210 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,040 means that guy makes another account and continues troubling 211 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,720 the girl. But given that many of the cases 212 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,080 targeting teenage girls involve boys of their own age, Sinaat 213 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,000 Pillai says that we also need to be talking more with boys about 214 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,520 how to handle relationships. I think we need to 1st 215 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,480 acknowledge that largely many of them are boys and I think there 216 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,960 is a real failure. I think, and I don't want to 217 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,920 sound like an older person, but there's a real failure in 218 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,640 handling breakups. You know, if somebody likes a 219 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,680 girl or if somebody they just don't know how to approach and 220 00:11:46,680 --> 00:11:49,240 you know, they, they feel like, you know, coercing the girl or 221 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,560 like, you know, using the girl to, you know, like entrapping 222 00:11:52,560 --> 00:11:55,720 the girl in abuse is a good way of like, you know, building 223 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,360 intimacy with the girl. And I think these two points 224 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:00,640 have been conflated. So it's a very toxic sort of 225 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,960 scenario. So I think that whole that men 226 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:04,920 connect and talking to the men and boys. 227 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,640 And I think even like, you know, the educational department has 228 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,760 mentioned it needs to be done. And I think, you know, because 229 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,680 sometimes when we get cases where the perpetrator are boys 230 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,960 and we go to the police station, I think we do feel like, you 231 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,120 know, bad that like, you know, like he's just 15, but he's done 232 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,480 this horrible thing, you know, and can it be avoided? 233 00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:28,040 So I think that the boy should do better is also a feeling that 234 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:31,360 we experience right? Siddharth Pillai tells Ambika 235 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,000 Pandit that while victims are very traumatized by such cases, 236 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,600 even the teenage perpetrators who are caught in such cases see 237 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,520 a massive upheaval in their lives. 238 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,880 What happens when such an incident occurs is that it 239 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:45,520 disrupts your entire life, right? 240 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:48,120 It disrupts your education, it disrupts your family life. 241 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:51,240 It disrupts your emotional life. It disrupts many aspects. 242 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:54,400 It's not just this one issue. The effect spreads to all 243 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,120 corners of your life. And I'm sure when a perpetrator 244 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,920 is caught and he's 14 year old, his education is disrupted, his 245 00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,720 emotional life is disrupted. Is there a way in which we can 246 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,080 look at this comprehensive solution, rehabilitation or 247 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,320 like, you know, reformation doesn't mean he will never do 248 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,200 this again. It has to be like, you know, can 249 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,440 he come out of this as a better individual? 250 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,440 And whatever disruption and has occurred in his life, can we 251 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:20,760 solve for it? Because otherwise he has no 252 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,320 chance of reforming If you only focus on one aspect. 253 00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:27,200 If you only take this minor and tell that like, you know, kalse 254 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,600 tirko mobile nahi milega, you're never going to have access to 255 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,320 mobile ever, right? I don't think that solves the 256 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,320 issue. I really believe it's like a 257 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:39,440 symptom of something as large as patriarchy and something as 258 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,760 large as like, you know, not being able to handle his own 259 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:47,080 emotional sort of issues. And because we deal with a lot 260 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,880 of cases and lot of cases involving exchange of content is 261 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,240 the abuse and romantic relationships, right? 262 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,680 So the boy has been kind to the girl before and now, like, you 263 00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:58,520 know, he's descended into this toxic type. 264 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:00,800 So could he have made a better choice? 265 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,960 So I think those things need to be examined. 266 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,040 And I feel like sweeping judgments on like 14 year olds 267 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,520 that affect other 14 year olds based on one case should be 268 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:21,360 avoided. You know Agana thuri B News 269 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:25,000 follow karte hai to Pune Porsche murder case ke baare me abhi Tak 270 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:30,480 to janhi guy honge. Is there any reason why this 17 271 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,880 year old eight-month boy should not be tried as an adult? 272 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:36,200 He knew exactly what he was doing. 273 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:39,400 The. Accused was initially booked. 274 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,520 For only death. By negligence. 275 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,720 Why was the police so? Negligent in filing that FIR. 276 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,200 Builder Vishal Agarwal son had allegedly gone out to party with 277 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:55,080 his friends to two bars on the night of the 19th of May, where 278 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:57,960 he was allegedly served alcohol despite being under the age of 279 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,200 18. After leaving one of the bars, 280 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,800 he drove a sports car into a motorcycle and ended up killing 281 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,960 the two riders, both of whom were adults and workers in the 282 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,560 tech industry. He was initially charged under 283 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,960 various sections of the law, including negligence and 284 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,640 culpable homicide. The miner was then taken for a 285 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:17,320 blood test and produced before a juvenile justice board. 286 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,560 He was granted bail within 15 hours of his arrest. 287 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,360 He was told to work with Punes Yerwada traffic police for 15 288 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,720 days composer 300 word essay to undergo treatment for alcohol 289 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,760 dependency and to submit a report after the treatment. 290 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,480 But since his detention on the 20th of May, the role of adults 291 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,960 in the case has been as problematic as the incident 292 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,920 itself. An NCP MLA from the Ajit Pawar 293 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,160 faction is said to have delayed the teenagers blood test to 294 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:45,920 ascertain the blood alcohol levels. 295 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,840 The teenager's father and grandfather are accused of 296 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,080 trying to get the family's driver to take the blame. 297 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,240 His father was on the run and has since been arrested. 298 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,360 Two doctors who collected the teenager's first blood sample 299 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,880 have been arrested for disposing of the sample and preventing an 300 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:03,960 accurate assessment of whether he was intoxicated at the time 301 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:06,920 of the accident. Criminal cases involving 302 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,000 underage accused like in the Pune case often spark public 303 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:12,160 outrage. Whether it is the recent Pune 304 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,160 case or the Delhi gang rape case of 2012, there is public outrage 305 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,280 over an UN aged accused dealing with juvenile justice boards 306 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,800 instead of courts and jails. After the Delhi case, India 307 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,440 modified the law to allow juveniles to face trial as 308 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,400 adults in cases where crimes are deemed heinous. 309 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,280 In the Pune case, despite the police first sending the 310 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,560 teenager to the Juvenile Justice Board, they have now said that 311 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,840 they will attempt to ensure he faces trial as an adult. 312 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,840 Geetanjali Prasad at the Azim Premji Foundation and has worked 313 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,680 in the realm of juvenile justice, tells Ambika Pandit 314 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,800 that the Pune police's actions aren't really a surprise. 315 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,800 In the context of this case, the first sort of relevant narrative 316 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:57,360 that rears its head is this idea that the law is designed for 317 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,440 young criminals to evade punishment and evade the 318 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,040 rightful consequences of the law. 319 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,480 Geetanjali Prasad says that since the change in the law, 320 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,880 there's been a change in the intent of the law. 321 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,880 In the Pune accident case, many adults acted to try and subvert 322 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,520 the full extent of the law. However, in the case of poorer 323 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,119 children who have little family or institutional support, this 324 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,240 change in the law works against them. 325 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:25,880 The law was changed in 2015 after the Nirbhaya rape case, 326 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,640 where there was a complete reversal, as it were, of 327 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:34,560 juvenile justice law, where the law now says that children 328 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,800 between 16 and 18 can be tried as adults after completing what 329 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,880 is known as a preliminary assessment under Section 15 of 330 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:46,120 the ACT. And what becomes relevant here 331 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,080 in the experience of anyone who has engaged with the JJ system 332 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:55,280 as a lawyer, as a social worker, as a child who goes through the 333 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,040 system, as their family, they will see that despite 334 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:03,960 constitutional safeguards and despite procedural safeguards, 335 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,880 the law does not treat children equally. 336 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,040 There's a very beautiful section of the the JJ Act that contains 337 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:15,000 the principles of the ACT. And there is a principle that 338 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,840 covers this idea of equality and non discrimination based on 339 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,040 caste, class, background, disability. 340 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:27,960 And it calls for equal access to opportunity and treatment under 341 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,080 the JJ law. But you know, like with any 342 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,840 other laws pertaining to the criminal justice system, whether 343 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,320 we're speaking about adults that go through it or children, there 344 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,160 is an inequality in how people are treated. 345 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,600 And so, you know, this is coming out in different ways. 346 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,600 You are understanding the you're getting a glimpse of the the 347 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,480 social economic power that this family has because then our 348 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:54,960 reports of alleged coercion of the family's driver to take 349 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,040 responsibility for this accident. 350 00:18:57,560 --> 00:18:59,760 And that has come out in the media and the police is 351 00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:03,800 investigating it. So I think just as far as 352 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,200 context goes, it's really important to remember that 353 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,880 different children are treated differently under this law. 354 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,320 Geetanjali Prasad said that in the Pune case, the Juvenile 355 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,040 Justice Board, while roundly criticized in the public domain 356 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,320 for its seemingly lenient punishment, was actually acting 357 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,040 as per the law. The case filed by the police was 358 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,880 not under a section of law that could be classified as a heinous 359 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,200 offense. But while the Pune teenager was 360 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,960 set free by the board. Geeta Anjali tells the case of 361 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,160 another teenager she worked on who was charged with the same 362 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,640 sections of law as the Pune teenager but faced a fast 363 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,880 Richter punishment. This was a case of a boy who we 364 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:44,680 met in Dasna district jail in Ghaziabad in 2015 and at that 365 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,680 point the boy had already spent four years in prison. 366 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,280 He was charged under exactly the same section. 367 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:56,200 He was apprehended by the railway police for the death of 368 00:19:56,200 --> 00:20:00,360 a person who had fallen out of a train when a crowd was gathered 369 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:04,840 at the door of the train. This boy worked as a vendor on 370 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:06,760 the train and he had grown up on trains. 371 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:11,480 You can ask him about any train that passes through any of the 372 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,560 stations across the state of Uttar Pradesh. 373 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:15,680 He'll be able to tell you the timings. 374 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,960 He'll be able to tell you where they run to and from. 375 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,600 He remembers all of this like the back of his hand. 376 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,120 And. He was brought to our attention 377 00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:26,960 not because there was some great concern around this idea of 378 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,520 minors possibly being in jail, but because he had mental 379 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:36,000 illness and he had been diagnosed by the mental hospital 380 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:37,480 in Banaras. He had been sent there for 381 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:42,840 treatment, had real extremes of emotion and so was clearly, you 382 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:45,400 know, a nuisance in the prison. And that's why his case was 383 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,280 brought to our attention. The police official had said to 384 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,160 him, I know you're a child, but if you go through the DJ system, 385 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:52,600 you'll be stuck there for many years. 386 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:55,840 Just go to jail, and you will get out on bail as quickly as 387 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:57,640 possible. You know, just tell them you're 388 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:58,920 a child and you'll get out of jail. 389 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,640 But he had been there for four years, and he had no family that 390 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,080 was concerned about him. We made a family visit to his 391 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,640 home in Pratapgarh and we learned that his brothers were 392 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:13,520 trying to take over his part of the land that had been left to 393 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,800 him by their father. And so they had no interest in 394 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,240 getting him out and he had left home because of the 395 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,520 discrimination he faced from his older brothers. 396 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,720 In looking at this case, he finally gets out. 397 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,640 He's finally free. We asked for a bone ossification 398 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,080 test to be done. The sessions judge is still not 399 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,600 willing to transfer the case to the JJB. 400 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:37,400 So this is an example of differential treatment. 401 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,600 There isn't the security net of a family and certainly the state 402 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,520 has no concern for a child like this other than if he or she 403 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,520 creates a nuisance in whatever institution he is in and then 404 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,920 there's some movement around it. There are certain safeguards 405 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,840 created, including how the preliminary assessment should 406 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,920 take place under the new law. But there have to be enough 407 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,360 procedural safeguards and rules built in that ensure that 408 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:05,880 children from poor families or children who are marginalized by 409 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,080 by way of their caste or class or religion are treated equally 410 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,520 by the law. Monica Kumar is the Co founder 411 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,920 and a clinical psychologist with the Manas Foundation, which 412 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,040 works with teenagers and children who are accused in 413 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:21,760 criminal cases. She tells Ambika Pandit that a 414 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,120 big problem with the system as it stands is that there's too 415 00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:28,600 little focus on preventive programs that speak to teenagers 416 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:32,560 and young adults. The whole system is geared for 417 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,600 redressal the moment something happens. 418 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,600 If a police comes to us late in the night and says OK, there has 419 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,800 been a rape victim and you do the counseling or this is the 420 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,760 juveniles who has committed a hideous crime, what do you do at 421 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,800 that time the person is close. Disclosure is very difficult. 422 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,040 We are a system of silence, but the effort towards preventive 423 00:22:57,040 --> 00:23:00,480 work, which is, you know, the conversations about gender, the 424 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:05,440 conversations about what we need to do as young people, what as 425 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,240 parents we need to do, what is society we need to do, so that 426 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,200 preventive work is, I think completely missing. 427 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,360 And we are again every time addressing this. 428 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:20,280 Monika Kumar says another issue with juveniles facing cases is 429 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,680 that regular counseling just isn't enough. 430 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,240 Within the reform homes we are of course looking at long term 431 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,880 engagement, we are looking at workshops, we are looking at 432 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,960 working with them. In reform homes simple 433 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,480 counselling doesn't work. So you need other kinds of, you 434 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,440 know, whether it is a career counselling, whether it is them 435 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,840 doing any kind of work which gives them some kind of a piece 436 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,800 or some kind of engagement. So well we are suggesting all 437 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,640 this. The question is that has your 438 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,560 counselling yielded any result? The person's behaviour is the 439 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:57,240 same, so I have no answers for that because it requires 440 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,200 patience. It requires a change not only in 441 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:05,000 the person, but in the system. So what I've understood, Monica, 442 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,360 is the fact that what you're saying is that consistency as of 443 00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:12,720 now is lacking prevention. When we talk, instead of 444 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,000 qualitative, we are looking at quantitative results, which you 445 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,960 feel should not be the way to look at it, but it should be an 446 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:25,240 ongoing process where the counseling should be made a 447 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,880 primary factor in the entire healing process. 448 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:30,520 Is that right? Is that what you're trying to 449 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,320 say? That's what I'm trying to say. 450 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,600 So don't start on a knee jerk reaction every time there is a 451 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,960 case and when it gets over we forget and we go back to because 452 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,200 we have so many files to deal with, so many things to answer 453 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:48,160 to so many other things. And mental health is just a 454 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:53,280 priority on a paper which is not really how it should be. 455 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,840 I mean it should be made as a holistic intervention which is a 456 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,880 plug in intervention to all other critical interventions 457 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,440 which are happening and not just whenever there is a crisis. 458 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,960 Another popular perception with juveniles in conflict with the 459 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,200 law is the belief that they are destined for a life of crime and 460 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:12,640 there's no scope for reformation. 461 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,600 Monica Kumar, who has worked with many teenagers in 462 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,120 observation homes, says that's not the case. 463 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,880 As a mental health professional, you know, we know that anybody 464 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,400 who comes with conduct or personality issues or where 465 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,360 there has been a serious crime, it's a long term work and 466 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:34,400 everybody has a right to reform. It's not just with one person. 467 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,520 And you know, you don't see the change just in one person. 468 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:42,160 But let's say that you reach out to 102 will change and who are 469 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,200 we to label this as somebody who's not ready? 470 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,960 And sometimes, you know, you keep working and the day comes. 471 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,920 It's like with the autistic child now you start teaching 472 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:52,440 that child and there is no language. 473 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,920 And one day you want to give up. And suddenly they're speaking 474 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,600 the line. So do we wait for that line or 475 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,000 do we just give up? It's something that I won't give 476 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,320 up on. And I feel that, you know, you 477 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,280 have to hit the cord and you have to figure that person out. 478 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:09,840 There is a human part of it that nobody has actually had the 479 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,960 conversation with them. That person also is rejecting 480 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,760 the system and we are rejecting him. 481 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,840 So we need to come and understand and adapt to each 482 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,440 other and figure a way out. Geetanjali Prasad was part of a 483 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,200 research project that found that close to 10,000 underage 484 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,040 prisoners were moved from jails to juvenile homes between 2015 485 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,520 and 2021. This was because they were 486 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,240 wrongly sent to jails and kept in custody with adults. 487 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,440 Geetanjali says poorer children who face the criminal justice 488 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,600 system are often clueless about what to do and don't even get 489 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,640 good lawyers appearing for them. She says that many lawyers don't 490 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,200 want to represent these children because they are poor and are 491 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,240 seen as having no future. She says we need a system that's 492 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,240 accountable to the children and to society at large. 493 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,320 It is this idea of, you know, why should we fight for these 494 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,240 kids? Which is not to say that legal 495 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,080 aid doesn't exist. Legal aid exists. 496 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,640 There are, you know, many legal aid lawyers in, especially in 497 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,200 metros that are now working on some of these matters. 498 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,800 But is it a system that has, you know, where people are willing 499 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,840 to fight with principles of legal aid and justice that are 500 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,640 confrontational, you know, that will demand of the system that 501 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,600 it is equally accountable to all children? 502 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,520 That is what remains to be seen. That is the larger vision of 503 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,600 what legal aid should be, not a meek system that just does 504 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,680 what's easy, but a system that pushes the law to, you know, 505 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,720 work in its best possible way for the rehabilitation and 506 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:39,040 reform of all children. But how does all of this connect 507 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,440 to the Pune case? What connects the case of an 508 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,360 economically backward teen accused of pushing someone off a 509 00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:48,000 train and wrongly sent to a jail to build a son whose family did 510 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,000 everything possible to get him off the hook? 511 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,600 Geetanjali Prasad says one needs to look at the idea behind the 512 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,280 juvenile justice law. She says the Pune case should 513 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,560 open our eyes to the problems that lie within the juvenile 514 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,760 justice system. It was put forth with this idea 515 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:08,960 that juveniles committing crime happens because of harsh socio 516 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,560 economic realities. And that therefore, you know, 517 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,240 based on the fact that these children don't have an 518 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:19,160 environment that is supporting them to be responsible, take 519 00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,240 decisions maturely, you have to have a situation that gives them 520 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:26,480 a law that gives them the chance for rehabilitation. 521 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:31,320 And my point on this is just here you see inequality acting 522 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:35,600 out in the system to use the best parts of this act in an 523 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,960 exceptional case, in a preferential manner, right? 524 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,640 And that's what I find very, very egregious about it. 525 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,960 I think the fact that the juvenile was given bail 526 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,000 immediately is again, another question. 527 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,240 The mother of of the person killed is saying it's taken over 528 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,440 50 hours for me to cremate my son, but it's taken, you know, 529 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,560 under 15 hours for this juvenile to get out on, on bail. 530 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,760 So yes, certainly it it raises questions, I think not about 531 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,280 whether the ACT in itself is good or not and and whether it 532 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,200 should have harsher provisions. Certainly, I don't think it 533 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,880 should have harsher provisions if this incredibly high number 534 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,040 of children, just as as one data point, are ending up in prisons 535 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,960 when they shouldn't be, most of whom would not have committed 536 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,960 heinous offences, right? They're just in for petty 537 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,320 offences. But but I think the more 538 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,840 critical question it raises is about the inequality in 539 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,840 accessing the criminal justice system, including the JJ system, 540 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,320 and how people are allowed to use muscle power, money power 541 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,240 for preferential ends. And if it hadn't been reported, 542 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,840 then, you know, this kid could probably be out Scott free. 543 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,680 So this is where the role of society citizens comes into 544 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:49,200 play, that we all have to be concerned about these questions. 545 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,360 We all have to engage. It cannot be a momentary outrage 546 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,480 when there's an exceptional case in the JJ system where a rich 547 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:59,080 child is getting off easy. There has to be a constant 548 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,040 engagement by civil society, by concerned citizens. 549 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,440 It cannot be a knee jerk one time response in asking for 550 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,640 accountability. That accountability should be 551 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,160 asked for in every case that goes before JJ BS in this 552 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,880 country. And I know that's it's quite a 553 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,040 leap to ask demand something like that, but that is what that 554 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:19,600 is what a just system would look like. 555 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,000 This outcome would never be allowed to happen if the same 556 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,480 degree of care goes into every case that comes before JJ BS. 557 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:30,440 And if every child has equal opportunity before the JJB, it 558 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,280 would never happen. Today's episode was produced by 559 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,840 Jayaraj Singh and Sahil Gupta. For a daily spotlight on people, 560 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,880 ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us where available 561 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:48,000 on the Times of India website, Spotify, Apple, Amazon or 562 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,080 wherever else you get your podcasts. 563 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,000 For any news, tips or feedback, mail me at 564 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,000 arungeorge@timesgroup.com.