1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,640 From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George, and this is the 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:15,920 Times of India podcast. Environmentalism is often 3 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,880 believed to have its roots in the last 50 years or so and is 4 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,760 often portrayed as originating in the Western nations. 5 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:24,920 In India, the first prominent environmental movement was the 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:28,080 Chipco movement in the 1970s. The movement against 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,280 deforestation was the subject of Professor Ram Guha's first book, 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,800 published in 1989, titled The Unquiet Woods. 9 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,400 He then went on to write multiple books on history, 10 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,360 cricket and environmentalism, many of which have been 11 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:43,760 bestsellers, including India After Gandhi and Gandhi Before 12 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,080 India. Professor Guha's latest book 13 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,640 argues that environmentalism took root in colonial India well 14 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,600 before environmentalism became a subject of debate in the West. 15 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,400 His book, titled Speaking with Nature, is the story of nine 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,080 personalities who are arguing against environmental 17 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,920 destruction well before India became independent in 1947. 18 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,440 In the book are stories of personalities like Rabindranath 19 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:11,240 Tagore, Patrick Geddis, JC Kumarappa, Varrier Elvin and M 20 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,560 Krishnan, among others. Not all of them were Indian, and 21 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,880 each of their stories is unique in terms of the larger message 22 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,640 they attempted to spread. The book deals with how these 23 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,280 personalities attempted to show the world the effects of 24 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,160 industrialization and humankind well before terms like climate 25 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:30,200 change and pollution became everyday topics of discussion. 26 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,320 In today's episode, when conversation with Ram Guha about 27 00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:37,000 the book and environmentalism, we talk about why lessons from 28 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,120 nearly 100 years ago still have relevance and why most of these 29 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,160 personalities are inspiring and also noble failures. 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,240 We also discussed the lessons that are to be taken from these 31 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:49,280 lives at a time when the environmental problems we 32 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,160 encounter are far bigger than anything they ever did. 33 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:58,120 We're in a time where, at least as a policy sort of thing, we 34 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,440 claim to have these lessons dating back to our ancient myths 35 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,120 and ancient books in terms of how we should preserve our 36 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,120 ecology. And we even now want to export 37 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,520 it to the world. But in your book, you say that 38 00:02:08,759 --> 00:02:10,919 that's not as far back as we want to go. 39 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,280 We shouldn't be going back to our ancient texts and myths. 40 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,520 Could you talk about why you would argue that? 41 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:21,480 Let's assume for a minute that our ancient myths, particularly 42 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,440 Hindu myths, because that's what our government is most 43 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,120 interested in and our epics preach a concern for nature. 44 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:30,800 Then why is the Ganganya Banaras so polluted? 45 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,440 Why is the Himalaya, our most sacred mountain chain, so 46 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,800 ravaged? So the idea that ancient 47 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,240 religious scriptures from 2000 years ago can guide behaviour 48 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,600 today, this is true not just of Hinduism, but of Islam or 49 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,760 Christianity. I mean, you know, you can't 50 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:53,200 tackle the problems of 21st century America with the with by 51 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,280 taking recourse to the Bible later on, the problems of the 52 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,920 21st century Middle East by blindly following the Quran, 53 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:02,400 right? So I think that's there's a 54 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,800 conceptual problem there. But more substantively, the 55 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:10,360 argument to my book is that while an aesthetic love for 56 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:16,800 nature goes back to the dawn of humanity, while some local 57 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:20,680 village communities present and tribal cultures, you know, 58 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,920 manage their water and their forests and their pasture lands 59 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:27,560 with care, environmentalism is a modern phenomenon. 60 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,360 It's a post industrial revolution phenomenon because 61 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:34,200 it's only with the Industrial Revolution and the technologies 62 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,440 and forms of consumption it unleashed that human beings 63 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,400 first realized that the scale of environmental degradation that 64 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:46,160 unchecked industrialization could cause would imperil the 65 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,160 prospects of our life on earth, the survival on Earth. 66 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:55,120 So if environmentalism is a philosophy trying to find ways 67 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,680 in which human beings can live sustainably and only alongside 68 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,000 the earth for the long term, it only becomes possible with the 69 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,640 industrial revolution because before then you didn't have this 70 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:06,040 extraordinary scale of devastation. 71 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,840 So the awareness that this was the global crisis, an 72 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,280 existential crisis, only comes with large scale 73 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,320 industrialization, urbanization, the use of fossil fuels, the use 74 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,440 of new forms of transportation, Modern Warfare, which is much 75 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,400 more destructive of the environment and of human lives 76 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,960 than older forms of warfare. So that's really the largest 77 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:31,480 sociological argument I make to suggest that environmentalism 78 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,960 per SE is only possible after the industrial. 79 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,440 Even the Chipco movement you you argue, is the sort of starting 80 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,760 point where we see that environmental damage is being 81 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,040 caused by these large projects that we are taking up. 82 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,920 Could you talk about why these personalities ideas appeal to 83 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,800 you? And you know, why did you go 84 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,480 back to it so many years after actually starting on it? 85 00:04:53,840 --> 00:04:59,000 As a organized social movement with people acting collectively, 86 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:04,400 either starting organisations and groups of many individuals 87 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,760 or using a ship coded nonviolent forms of protest dharnas in 88 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,600 which hundreds of thousands of people come out as a movement as 89 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:14,680 an organised collective activity. 90 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:20,400 Environmentalism is a phenomenon of the 1970s, not just in India 91 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:25,520 but in Europe and America too. But before environmentalism as a 92 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:32,080 popular social movement began, you had individual thinkers from 93 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:37,440 the 19th century who were in a sense anticipating what was to 94 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,200 become a social and collective concern. 95 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,920 Who through their own personal experience, through their 96 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,640 writings, through their scholarship, through their 97 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:49,680 travels, were warning Indians that if you go down the path of 98 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,040 blindly and imitating Western models of industrialisation, 99 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,960 which are any intensive, capital intensive, resource intensive, 100 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:57,600 you will face all these problems. 101 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,400 So as a movement, as a collective activity, as a 102 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,840 collective social activity, environmentalism is born with in 103 00:06:04,840 --> 00:06:07,640 India, is born with Chipco in the 1970s, that you have other 104 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,880 movements afterwards. But as a way of thinking, as a 105 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:15,200 way of anticipating the damage that these new technologies 106 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,760 cause, as a philosophy, I argue that there is a prehistory of 107 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:23,400 environmentalism not as a movement, but of ideas and 108 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,680 thought and reflection. Its also that all these people 109 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:32,560 are writing more in terms of ideas and in letters. 110 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:35,360 There's no science to it like we do these days. 111 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,480 Does that also make those arguments harder to accept in 112 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,400 some ways? That they seem very in the air 113 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,320 and not very direct in some ways. 114 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:46,200 I mean, you're right, and most of them are acting as 115 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:47,440 individuals. Some of them are doing 116 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,640 collective work somewhere like JC Kumarapa is trying to 117 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,280 organize villages to use their resources more sustainably to, 118 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:58,640 you know, recycle their manure to be more to practice from the 119 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:02,480 water conservation and, you know, to be more prudent in the 120 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,120 use of forest resources and grazing resources. 121 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,400 But by and large, they are operating as individuals. 122 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,240 They are also, more importantly, going against the grain of the 123 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,240 times. So there you could think of them 124 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,280 as intellectual dissidents because they tried a different 125 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:21,600 lesson from our colonization by the British. 126 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,520 So the lesson drawn by most intellectuals and almost even 127 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,840 political thinkers, say by Jawaharlal Nehru or by Subhash 128 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,680 Chandra Bose, so by scientists like CV Ramen or the great 129 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,120 engineer M Vishesh Arya, the lesson they draw is that the 130 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,160 British colonized us because they were more powerful, they 131 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,520 were more industrialized. And once they go, we have to 132 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,800 meet them, not just equal, but excel them at their own term. 133 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:52,360 We have to be larger factories, more gigantic cities, more use, 134 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,000 more fossil fuel energy to power our economic growth. 135 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,000 So these people are intellectual dissidents because they're going 136 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,880 against the grain, they say, no, actually we have to be. 137 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,040 We have to follow a slightly different path of development. 138 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,840 Yes, poverty is a problem. Yes, unemployment is a problem. 139 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,720 Yes, we have to meet the basic needs of people for food, 140 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:17,440 housing, education, help, but because unlike the British and 141 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,640 unlike the Americans, we don't have colonies to conquer. 142 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,560 I mean American industrialization and economic 143 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,040 growth was made possible because they went and conquered this 144 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:30,520 vast and scarcely populated continent and extinguished and 145 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,840 exterminated the indigenous population and built their 146 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,960 economy. British and and French 147 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:38,039 industrialization was possible because they had colonies in 148 00:08:38,039 --> 00:08:42,120 Asia and Africa which provided them resources and and money. 149 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,160 Now India had none of that. These people are arguing against 150 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:49,240 the grain, and I think that's what makes make their ideas less 151 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,920 influential in their own time. But today, when we are 152 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,400 confronted by these multiple forms of environmental crises, 153 00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,880 maybe their ideas need a fresh herring and a closer and careful 154 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,320 and critical look, which is what I have tried to do in my book. 155 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,720 I want to start with the Rabindranath Tagore chapter, 156 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:09,360 which is also the 1st chapter of the book. 157 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,920 You know you talk about him and you given him one more title 158 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:14,960 like he didn't have enough already. 159 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,880 You add to him the title of being the Indian heading the 160 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:20,840 first environmental movement in India. 161 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,440 Given you know, he didn't really like you said have a 162 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,120 environmental movement in the sense where he went to the 163 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,040 villages and told people to do things. 164 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,800 But then why would you argue that he is this? 165 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:35,960 Actually, I don't say he started an environmental movement. 166 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:39,760 I say he was the first important environmentalist. 167 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,200 So the distinction I made in my answer to your first question 168 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:49,040 between environmentalism as thought and environmentalism as 169 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,920 action, you know, which only really starts with the typical 170 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:53,840 movement. Tagore is really an 171 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:58,200 environmental thinker, though of course he integrates it in his 172 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,240 educational philosophy. So today, you know, every school 173 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,240 and college is taught the importance of environmental 174 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,960 education. But in Shantiniketan, and also 175 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,600 in the school, the Tagore and the high school part of Bhavan 176 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,640 that people like Amarthasan studied, you know, interactions 177 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,800 in nature very much part of it. First of all, you know, if a 178 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:18,880 person like Tagore is neglected because it's in this field, 179 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,960 because people haven't very clearly seen him as an early or 180 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,320 precocious environmentalist, it's because there were so many 181 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,640 other things to celebrate. I mean, there was his poetry, 182 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,560 there were his plays, there were his novels, there was art, there 183 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:34,400 was a building of Shantiniketan, there were his travels, there 184 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:38,320 was his influence on Nehru and Subash Bose and Mahatma Gandhi 185 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,120 and his rewriting, his reshaping of the Bengali language. 186 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,040 So this elevated his work. People missed. 187 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:48,120 And if at all they saw Tagore as an environmentalist, they saw 188 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,720 him only as a nature lover. Who are His poems talks about 189 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,760 the beauty of forests, the beauty of mountains. 190 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,480 But what I've argued, and I think I've shown, I hope 191 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:59,400 reasonably convincingly, that there are many different 192 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,440 dimensions to Tagore's environmentalism. 193 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,200 First is the pure aesthetic dimension. 194 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,680 He glories in the beauty and diversity of nature in his 195 00:11:07,680 --> 00:11:09,840 poetry. Then there is the educational 196 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,560 dimension, because he integrates it in how he conceives of school 197 00:11:13,560 --> 00:11:16,520 and college education. Then there is the political 198 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,480 dimension, because he is the first person or one of the first 199 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,400 people to recognize that colonialism, Western 200 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:27,120 colonialism, was a system not just of economic exploitation 201 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:31,240 and political domination, but of ecological devastation. 202 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,120 I mean, there are quotes in my books that, you know, the West 203 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,640 is cannibalistic. Europe, Europe is cannibalistic, 204 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,920 it feels on the people and resources of the rest of the 205 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,240 world psychically shows that imperialism has an ecological 206 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,040 dimension. You know, it ravages the 207 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,640 ecologies and landscapes, not just of of other countries, not 208 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,360 just dominates and subjugates their people. 209 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:52,760 And finally, it is a prophetic dimension. 210 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:55,960 You know, he talks about how the whole earth will be goused up 211 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:57,960 and they will only be craters and no water. 212 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,120 I mean, in 1922, a hundred years ago, maybe you should not be 213 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,240 saying this, but it could be that someone like me was able to 214 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,800 document Tagos, environmentalism in all these different 215 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,800 dimensions because I'm not myself a Bengali, you know, I 216 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,600 come from a slightly adjacent perspective. 217 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,200 So maybe I saw things that others had not seen so clear. 218 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:21,480 You also write about JC Kumar Appam, who is, at least for me, 219 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,360 the most interesting character in this book in terms of his 220 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:26,600 whole story. What explains this sort of 221 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,760 staunch holding on to his beliefs? 222 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,840 You know, and at every turn that he's offered an opportunity to 223 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,480 do something. There is a man who says, no, I 224 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,760 will not do this, and instead I will stick to my beliefs. 225 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,440 And why wouldn't he sort of choose instead to be with the 226 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,440 government and infect the change from within? 227 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,560 Well, he, it could be better of personality, was a difficult man 228 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:51,600 and angular man, but he was, I mean, he again, I think his, his 229 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,920 work is really important because he's taken up much later. 230 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,880 I mean, people today see him as someone who integrated ecology 231 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,960 with economics. I talk about how EF Schumacher, 232 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:02,320 for example, was influenced by him. 233 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,200 By the way, I, you know, its, its nice to see that you thought 234 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:08,720 him the most interesting because other readers have found others. 235 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,600 Someone I talked to recently thought that the the couple who 236 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,720 did agricultural science, Howard Albert and Gabriel Howard was 237 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,800 the most interesting. A wildlife scholar I who 238 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,320 interviewed me found M Krishnan the most interesting. 239 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,160 And urban planner might find Patrick Eddies. 240 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:27,040 I think delighted when different readers find, you know, because 241 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:30,560 I think each of them is interesting and timely and 242 00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:33,080 relevant in their own way. But Kumar, the answer to your 243 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,600 question was Kumar Appa was a difficult man. 244 00:13:35,680 --> 00:13:37,880 You know, some people are not team players. 245 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,520 Some people are not compromising. 246 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,160 You know, it may. The question you posed is quite 247 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,360 interesting. Would he, if he had worked 248 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,480 within the government, if he had not abandoned of the Planning 249 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,520 Commission committee he was asked to join, would he have 250 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,760 moderated economic development in a way that would have been 251 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,200 more sensitive to village concerns and environmental 252 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:01,320 concerns? Yeah. 253 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:06,080 But you know, I think it was it he was a stubbornly independent 254 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:11,360 minded man and I think that was both his strength and his 255 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,560 weakness because it made it gave his work a certain integrity and 256 00:14:15,560 --> 00:14:18,560 wholeness. If you had been compromising or 257 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:21,160 cut corners wouldn't happen. The other hand, possibly what 258 00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,680 you suggest may have been the case that in terms of concrete 259 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:30,120 policy implementation and he couldn't have any kind of 260 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:40,760 tangible influence. We're back in conversation with 261 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,240 author and historian Ramachandra Guha about his latest book 262 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:47,400 titled Speaking with Nature, which is about 9 personalities 263 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,880 who attempted to raise awareness about environmental degradation 264 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,560 well before it was a topic of debate in homes. 265 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,400 In this segment, we're in conversation about cities, 266 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,600 forest rights for tribals, and whether it is the curse of an 267 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,080 environmentalist to always be portrayed as an enemy of 268 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,960 progress. With a Patrick Geddes, we get an 269 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,400 insight into the sort of town planning that is almost against 270 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,840 the grain of what we consider town planning. 271 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,640 Now. You add more greenery, you kind 272 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,880 of make touch ups to things rather than making these massive 273 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:21,320 changes. But then for you, why does 274 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,920 someone like a Geddes fail? And is it that we always wanted 275 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:29,280 our cities to be these big grand places which now we are again 276 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:34,160 suffering for? Actually, I must say that I have 277 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,160 often been attracted by failure, by heroic and noble failure in a 278 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,200 lot of my work. I've written about people who 279 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,760 are extraordinary individuals who didn't really reach the 280 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,800 pinnacle, the Dalit cricketer Palwankar Balu, who was never 281 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,480 appointed captain of the Hindu team, you know, very rarely it 282 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,760 was done support margin. So maybe there's something 283 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:55,400 heroic and noble failure, you know, attracts me because this 284 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,960 again, I assist the integrity of their work and their vision, 285 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,520 which appeals to me. Now again, Geddies, the colonial 286 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:05,920 urban town planners, didn't find him easy to work with Noddy, the 287 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,600 Princess, but he left. Again, like Kumarapa, he left 288 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,520 behind his legacy. And in some ways he's the odd 289 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,080 man out in that in my book, because all the other nine are 290 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,840 dealing with rural landscapes, dealing with farms, with 291 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,760 forests, with water, with agriculture, with the 292 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,360 wilderness. And Geddes, he's saying, look, 293 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,320 hey, India is also an urban civilization. 294 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,320 He's telling the Gandhians, he's telling indirectly telling 295 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,480 people like Kumarapa that and Gandhi himself, that you don't 296 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:38,520 like city life, but other people do. 297 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:44,840 And you know, the whole logic of urbanization will shift a larger 298 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,800 number of Indians to the city. And that the question is not I 299 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,280 want to dispense to city life, but how do I make it more 300 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,560 inclusive, more habitable, more environmentally friendly, where 301 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,520 there's democratic accountability, which the, you 302 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:00,840 know, the mayors and the politicians have, the citizens 303 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,200 have some say. And how do we build cities that 304 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,480 reduce that? What the term that is now used 305 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,520 ecological footprint on the countryside that try and use 306 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,040 their own resources for their water, for their energy, for 307 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:14,560 their housing, for their consultation. 308 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,359 Indian cities and cities everywhere have this ecological 309 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,880 footprint where it's the countryside that provides them 310 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:22,200 all the resources for their growth. 311 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:24,480 And of course, they create jobs, they create money. 312 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,400 So all that's also true. But are they sustainable? 313 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:28,920 I mean, I'm speaking to you from Bangalore, right? 314 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,800 Later this week, I'll be in conversation at the Bangalore 315 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,200 International Center with a very fine ecologist, Harini Nagendra, 316 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:36,720 who's written a very good book on Bangalore. 317 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,040 You know, on how we destroyed our lakes and our parks and our 318 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,960 water sources. Now, Bangalore is in many ways 319 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,200 the most economically dynamic city in India. 320 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,880 It's a city that is replaced Bombay as a city of dreams or 321 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,120 young people. You young people, all of India. 322 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,400 But how sustainable is this? Our lakes are gone. 323 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:59,280 We used to get our water from a reservoir close by. 324 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,920 Then we went to the Kaveri. Then we have Kaveri, second 325 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:06,360 stage, fourth stage, fifth stage with water pumped up 1000 feet 326 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,920 to the plateau where Bangalore is, you know using cross whole 327 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,480 amount of energy. Now we are saying Bangalore 328 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,640 needs to go to the Saravati which is in the Western guards 329 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,760 now. I mean, the idea of ecological 330 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:20,480 town planning to reduce the dependence of the city on the 331 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,440 resources of the countryside, town planning that is more 332 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:27,000 egalitarian, more democratic, more participative town planning 333 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,240 that finds a way of conserving great ancient buildings too. 334 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:32,040 You know, I mean, Bangalore had some beautiful buildings that 335 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,040 are all gone, right? I mean, I think some other 336 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,720 place, cities like maybe Mumbai and Delhi have done a slightly 337 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:42,360 better job of conserving their architectural and aesthetic 338 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:45,160 heritage. So I think guide is as an 339 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,840 ecological town planner, as a democratic town planner. 340 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,160 I think again, he speaks to us today. 341 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,240 I'll again say one thing, that my book is a work of historical 342 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,600 scholarship. Its not a work of policy and 343 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,800 advocacy. I mean, that's there. 344 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,160 That's obviously there indirectly, indirectly, and 345 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,440 readers will draw their own lessons about the present from 346 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:09,480 what I say about the past. They will draw their own 347 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:13,520 conclusions about what ideas among all these 10 individuals, 348 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,160 which of their ideas may have some resonance or relevance with 349 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,240 our situation today. But I think Gary's is one of the 350 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:20,440 most interesting figures in the book. 351 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:22,040 I mean, he's a very interesting man. 352 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,200 I mean, if you look at his story, I mean, for a biographer, 353 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,840 he was a celebrated urban town planner in Europe. 354 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:31,960 He was invited to show his exhibition on town planning in 355 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,280 Europe. Here the exhibition is sunk by a 356 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:36,720 German destroyer and he had nothing to show. 357 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,120 So he says, I'll study Indian, Indian cities and talk about 358 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:42,520 them, talk about their past, their present and their future. 359 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,720 So I think each of these individuals has a very 360 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,480 interesting and to be a poignant individual trajectory. 361 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:51,840 You know, the ideas are of course, the main emphasis of the 362 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:52,920 book. I mean, the main emphasis of the 363 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,600 book is not in the lives and not the biography, but on their 364 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:57,600 ideas. But I think they're already very 365 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,800 unusual people. You also write about Vernier 366 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,280 Elvin, who is actively working towards letting tribals. 367 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,560 Stay the way they would like to stay, rather than the central 368 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:12,920 government telling them how to live, imposing lots of rules on 369 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,360 them. You also write about how that 370 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:19,720 sort of imposition of rules and a sort of lack of freedom for 371 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,400 tribals is what resulted in something like the Maoist 372 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,400 movement. We are now at a stage where we 373 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,520 are talking of ending the Maoist movement. 374 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:31,160 What then does that mean for Indias future forest planning 375 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,280 and even the present forest planning in that sense? 376 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,920 That's a very good question. I should say straight away that 377 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,720 I've never been a fan of the Maoists. 378 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,760 And I think they were a savage and nihilistic group of radicals 379 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:48,320 who actually worsened the tribal predicament because they, the 380 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,640 tribals, became caught in a crossfire between the Indian 381 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,960 states, paramilitary and the Maoists. 382 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,000 But you know, how do you envisage the future for the 383 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,760 Adivasis who live close to or within the forest now in right, 384 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,760 in the end of the book in the Epidogue, I talk about what is 385 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,520 happening in the Gachiroli district of Maharashtra, which 386 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,280 was a Maoist infested area, but which is also an area in which 387 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:16,200 the Forest Rights Act was properly and honestly 388 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,320 implemented and where community forest rights were given to 389 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,280 dozens of villages once they got back control the forest. 390 00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:26,480 I mean, instead to extraordinary resurgence of the ecology, 391 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,040 particularly species like bamboo and those associated with 392 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,040 bamboo, which is led to a thriving artisanal economy, 393 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:36,160 which is replenished the springs, that is enhanced 394 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,120 biodiversity. So it is renewed the ecology and 395 00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:42,280 also provided opportunities for economic livelihood so that 396 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,720 tribals who are migrating cities have come back. 397 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:49,040 And now this is only a Model 1 can follow that you use tribal 398 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,680 culture, which is based on a deep understanding of nature, 399 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,040 which is egalitarian, which is participative to generate 400 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,960 economic growth in livelihoods. Now there was talk recently, I 401 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:03,240 don't know what will happen to it, about taking a steel mill to 402 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:05,280 Gadchiroli. Now what is that going to do, 403 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,880 you know? So you know, a wild steel mill 404 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,160 with a kind of massive fortification, you know, a few 405 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,760 100 people employed, most of the engineers will come from 406 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,160 outside. And we know tribals are going to 407 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:19,000 get skilled work, community forest rights in Adivasi areas 408 00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:23,440 that you can think of new models of economic development that 409 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,880 enhance the livelihood security of the Adivasi communities that 410 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,040 provide them dignified employment and at the same time 411 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:33,920 don't ravish the environment. So its not free. 412 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,320 You know, sometimes there's a there's a caricature. 413 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,080 You want to keep the tribals in a zoo, you want to keep them as 414 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,000 a museum piece. So people who argue in that way, 415 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,520 I would ask them to go to Gachiroli and look at what is 416 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,320 happening there. And what is happening in 417 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,160 Gachiroli can also should be emulated in, you know, 418 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,880 Chhattisgarh and in Orissa and in, you know, other places where 419 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,440 you can actually revive, I mean use and often using science. 420 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:01,040 So the Gadchiroli experiment, I used modern ecologist. 421 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:03,120 So it's not as if it's only tribal knowledge. 422 00:23:03,360 --> 00:23:05,720 You know, modern ecologist like Madhav Gadgil and his colleagues 423 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,280 have gone there and said these are the species you can grow, 424 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,160 these are the methods you can follow and and so on and so 425 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,720 forth. So I think there is a, you know, 426 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,560 this caricature that environmentalists are against 427 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,320 development, that tribal rights activists want to keep tribals 428 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,160 in a kind of museum. This is utterly fallacious. 429 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,320 One thing that kind of runs through the book is also this 430 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,560 sort of opposition to the centralization of management of 431 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,840 natural resources. Was it just colonialism and like 432 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,920 you said, the British and French colonialism we having spread? 433 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,720 Was it that which made all these personalities so clear eyed 434 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:45,000 about the centralization of resources? 435 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:50,120 Yeah, because the British, you know, took over 20% of Indias 436 00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:53,280 land area and said this is state forest and this is owned by the 437 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,560 government and local communities have very marginal rights. 438 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,920 And we will police the forest from the local community with 439 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:03,520 guns and the Indian Forest Service because it is called 440 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,600 heritage where khaki like policeman. 441 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:11,200 So centralization is anti democratic and it also goes 442 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,080 against the grain of sustainable management. 443 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,120 You know, I mean, I think so, you know, so for example, in 444 00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:18,600 many parts of India you had local communities managing the 445 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,440 water resources but the state irrigation department took it 446 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:22,760 over. So there was number 447 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,560 responsibility, no incentive for the local community. 448 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:27,880 Likewise with other forms of planning. 449 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,320 I have talked about town planning and how one needs a 450 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,400 much more participatory, you know, involvement of citizens in 451 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,040 how to use a city's financial and other resources. 452 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,360 So yes, absolutely. I think a responsible 453 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,360 environmental management requires political 454 00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:47,760 decentralization now. It requires a reactivation of 455 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,640 the 73rd and 74th amendment. Right now the 73rd and 74th 456 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,520 amendments which allow for panchayats and municipalities to 457 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,560 have the elected bodies, you know they have those bodies have 458 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,760 no teeth, they have no policy making powers. 459 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,920 They have no money generating powers, they have no finances. 460 00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,800 All they have is you have an election and but is the MLA and 461 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,800 the minister in the state secretariat or in in Delhi who 462 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,720 decides everything? Other people who understand 463 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,680 these things better than I may use some of the arguments of 464 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,560 these thinkers to make a more substantive case of political 465 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,200 decentralization as being good not just for democracy but for 466 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,440 environmental sustainability. But I think all these thinkers 467 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,720 saw that the damage that sent the colonial system of resource 468 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,000 management, which was based on excessive centralization, which 469 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,520 was based on according enormous powers to the state bureaucracy, 470 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,040 which was based on arrogance that ordinary people don't know, 471 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,080 that peasants and tribals know nothing about how to manage 472 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,280 forests or water or anything else. 473 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,840 I think that is in a in a democracy like ours, to still 474 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,920 have this coronary system of resource management, I think is 475 00:25:55,360 --> 00:25:58,720 is a huge problem. But, you know, in the current 476 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,120 age, with the problems that we're facing, especially with 477 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:05,880 climate change and things, a lot of that sort of pressure is now 478 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,400 again, back on that sort of centralization because we feel 479 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,760 that, you know, without a sort of large effort that's concerted 480 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,640 from the top, you can't manage something as big as climate 481 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,360 change. So how do you view that 482 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:20,640 argument? It's true that you need some 483 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:24,080 amount of centralization, you need some amount of macro 484 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,160 thinking, but it is more a balance. 485 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,600 And I think, again, this is something I only allude to 486 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,080 towards the end of the book, because the bulk of the problem 487 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,760 that India faces are not connected to climate change. 488 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:36,160 I mean, air pollution in Delhi is not connected to climate 489 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:37,800 change. The depletion of groundwater 490 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,800 aquifers is not connected to climate change. 491 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,960 The chemical contamination of the soil is not connected to 492 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,680 climate change. The invasion of our forests by 493 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,800 exotic weeds like Lantana is not connected to climate change. 494 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:53,040 So I think in some ways the obsession with climate change 495 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,320 now climate change is real, it is visible, it is affecting the 496 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,760 whole world. I mean, look at the floods in 497 00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:00,000 the cyclones in Florida very recently. 498 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,880 Of course, what happened in Kerala a few months ago is real, 499 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,280 it is visible, it is it can be extremely damaging. 500 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:13,920 But the environmental crisis that India faces today, much of 501 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,080 it has nothing to or little to do with climate change. 502 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:20,960 And unfortunately our whole way of thinking, regardless of which 503 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,520 political parties in power. I mean, I would, this is 504 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,360 something I don't take up in my book, but I would take it up in 505 00:27:26,360 --> 00:27:29,680 a, in a conversation like this, I would hold economists 506 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,040 accountable because economists have become a priesthood. 507 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,360 And this is regardless of left wing or right wing. 508 00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:38,080 You know, India has produced great left wing economies and 509 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,720 great right wing economies or celebrated left wing economists 510 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,920 who have got the Nobel Prize. Right wing economists have got 511 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,680 many great awards. What is common to them? 512 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,320 Ecological illiteracy. They believe that either the 513 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,800 state or the market can solve everything and there is no 514 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:53,720 environmental problems are ephemeral. 515 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,600 That is actually they affect the bulk of the Indian society. 516 00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,720 You know, environmental degradation has enormous 517 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:03,680 negative impacts in the livelihood and health of 518 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,520 ordinary Indians. So I think economics has become 519 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,200 a kind of priesthood, esoteric priesthood priesthood. 520 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,200 And they are the people who, you know, advise governments. 521 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,960 You know, it is not urban planners or community ecologists 522 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,040 or, you know, people working on democratic decentralization 523 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,160 advise government. So I mean, this is this is in my 524 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:25,320 book. It is a work of scholarship. 525 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,600 I kept out this polemic. But my personal belief is that 526 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,240 economists, regardless of whether they are left wing or 527 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,600 right wing, free market or welfarist, Indian economists, 528 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:40,040 are a esoteric peace stood that has blinded us to the the the 529 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,600 massive scale of the environmental crisis that India 530 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,320 faces. Another theme that again runs 531 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,960 through the book is this sort of opposition to a sort of top down 532 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,600 model of governance and also an acceptance of slow growth rather 533 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:59,520 than, you know, 15% GDP growth. Does such views also make, say, 534 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,160 even these personalities and even the modern day 535 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,240 environmentalists much less acceptable to the general 536 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,760 public? That may be so, but that will be 537 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,600 to our cost. I would say, notwithstanding 538 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,920 what I've said about the economic profession, that the 539 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,080 younger Indian economists are much more alert to this. 540 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,680 You know, there's a network of environmental economists, mostly 541 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,880 composed of people in their 30s and 40s who do much more field 542 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,680 work, who are aware of the condition of the soil, the 543 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,920 water, the air, and what economic costs it exacts and why 544 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,520 they need to, you know, be much more ecologically responsible. 545 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,960 But yes, it is at the moment. It's kind of going against the 546 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,920 grain. But as the problems deepen 547 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,360 10/15/20 years from now, I mean, I talked about who knows if 548 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,880 Bangalore will be habitable, you know, in the next 15 or 20 549 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,080 years, who knows? I mean, look at the Punjab, once 550 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,760 a grain, the bread basket of India. 551 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,120 Look at, you know, the condition of the soils in the groundwater 552 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,280 aquifers. So these are real issues that 553 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,800 are coming up and this is where it may be. 554 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,560 You know, some of the thinkers in my book, they can't tell you 555 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,000 exactly what to do because they were working a long time ago. 556 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,440 But they can provide you clues, they can provide you a 557 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,600 framework, they can provide you a, you could say, a moral and 558 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,360 ecological philosophy which will help us get a clearer 559 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,600 understanding of where India is today. 560 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,080 Is it the curse of an environmentalist to always be 561 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,520 seen as the enemy of the people? As in you will always be branded 562 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,600 one not. Enemy the people, because I 563 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,320 would argue that environmentalists are the real 564 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,040 people are speaking on behalf of the majority of the people. 565 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:33,800 They see this enemies of a very conventional, narrow minded, 566 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,120 outdated version of what is progress and development. 10% 567 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,800 growth is not long term progress. 568 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,880 I mean, of course you need growth, you need innovation, you 569 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,360 need entrepreneurship, you need the product, you know, greater 570 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,360 efficiency. But I think they are really 571 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,960 they're posing very large fundamental questions about what 572 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,080 kind of growth we need, how to make it environmentally 573 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,240 sustainable, how to make it more participative. 574 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,880 Early in the book, I quote Anil Agarwal, who is one of our 575 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,880 pioneering environmentalists, who said environmentalism in 576 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,920 India is not about pretty trees and tigers. 577 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,080 It's about the livelihoods of the majority of Indians, of slum 578 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,640 dwellers or workers or artisans or peasants or tribals or 579 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,640 pestilists. It's about, I think that's what 580 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,480 many other thinkers in this book really also argue. 581 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,000 It's a livelihood concern more than much more than it's a 582 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:31,600 merely aesthetic concern. Today's episode was produced by. 583 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,760 Jayaraj Singh and Sahil. Gupta for a daily. 584 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,080 Spotlight on people, ideas, and stories that matter. 585 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,880 Subscribe to us. We're available on the Times of 586 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,640 India website, Spotify, Apple, Amazon, or wherever else you get 587 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,520 your podcast. For any new. 588 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:52,320 Steps of feedback Mail me at arun.george@timesgroup.com.