1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,680 From Indias largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:17,960 Times of India podcast. How Congress as a party and as a 3 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:23,400 government have ceded a piece of India piece of Bharat 4 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:29,680 relinquished sovereignty, more importantly, shrunk over India's 5 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,360 borders, thereby creating all the problems our Tamil 6 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,360 fishermen, brothers and sisters are facing today. 7 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:42,280 We felt, considering today, that the situation of the fishermen 8 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:48,160 is so much a concern, then it is right for the fishermen 9 00:00:48,160 --> 00:00:52,280 themselves and the people of Tamil Nadu to know the truth and 10 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:58,040 the whole truth of this matter. Prime Minister Narendra Modi may 11 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,000 have mentioned the tiny uninhabited island of Kachitivu 12 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,519 in a parliamentary speech in August 2023, but it never quite 13 00:01:04,519 --> 00:01:06,520 made the headlines it has in the last week. 14 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,760 The furor over the island comes after a Right to Information 15 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,720 reply received by the BJP's Tamil Nadu unit chief. 16 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,320 The BJP has alleged that the territory was ceded to Sri Lanka 17 00:01:16,320 --> 00:01:19,800 by the Indira Gandhi government. This, according to the BJP, 18 00:01:19,800 --> 00:01:23,760 reflects poorly on the Congress nearly 50 years later and on the 19 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,440 ruling DMK in Tamil Nadu. The tiny island has been 20 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,320 uninhabited and is largely visited by Indian fishermen 21 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:32,640 during a festival that is celebrated with their 22 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,800 counterparts from Sri Lanka. So what then are the long term 23 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:38,640 impacts of making it sound like Sri Lanka shouldn't have got the 24 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,160 island? Sri Lanka for now has said that 25 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,240 the issue is an internal Indian issue. 26 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,640 The country's foreign Minister Ali Sabri brushed aside 27 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:49,200 questions and said that there was number question of anyone 28 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,480 else claiming the island. In today's episode, we're in 29 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,920 conversation with N Satyamurthy, who is a policy analyst and 30 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:57,680 political commentator based in Chennai. 31 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,640 He was the director of the Chennai chapter of the Observer 32 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,880 Research Foundation and has been a close watcher of ties between 33 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,600 India and Sri Lanka as well as India and Maldives. 34 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,560 In today's episode, he explains why the Kachitivo issue won't 35 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:14,440 yield electoral gains for the BJP in Tamil Nadu and won't help 36 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,800 India in the long run. We started by asking him about 37 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,400 the significance of the island for both India and Sri Lanka. 38 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,680 He explains why India didn't complain about giving control of 39 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,640 the island to Sri Lanka. And he also explains how the two 40 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:29,440 nations in a way pioneered a unique agreement before the 41 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,920 creation of Unclose or the United Nations Convention on the 42 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:36,960 Law of the Sea, which defines boundaries in the sea, a subject 43 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,360 of confrontation in regions like the South China Sea presently, 44 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:46,640 What is the significance of Kachativu 2, even Tamil Nadu, 45 00:02:46,640 --> 00:02:49,360 and what is its significance between the two nations at all, 46 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,240 if any? Basically Kachatibo as you all 47 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:59,040 of us would know by now is a small islet between India and 48 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:03,640 Sri Lanka. At one point both countries they 49 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:11,040 claim to get citing by old records and documents that 1974 50 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:15,560 agreement and 76 agreement do not contain the word seed as it 51 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:19,320 is being made out. That was about six or seven 52 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:27,400 years before the Unclass 1982 was came into force and at that 53 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:31,520 time India and Sri Lanka drew their IMBL. 54 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,800 That is International Maritime borderline in a way that 55 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,760 Kachatibi fell on the Sri Lankan side. 56 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:40,680 There were very many technical reasons and justification for 57 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:42,600 that. One. 58 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:49,320 Kachatibu is 11 nautical miles from Depth Island, the last 59 00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:56,200 inhabited island in Sri Lanka, and 14 nautical miles from 60 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,760 Rameswara. So even if the Median line is 61 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:05,640 drawn between the two countries in a way unclose defined it 62 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:10,200 later Kachatibu would still fall within the Sri Lankan territory. 63 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,040 As already former foreign secretaries have said there was 64 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:21,200 a gentleman's agreement So to say to swap Kachativa was Watch 65 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:25,160 Bank. WADGE Watch Bank is a 10,000 66 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:31,560 square kilometer water area beyond the Kanyakumari where 67 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:34,720 ceiling and fishermen were allow were fishing. 68 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,320 There was an arrangement for India to take over Watch Bank, 69 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,880 possibly in return for Kachati. There is nothing written there. 70 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,920 If you go into the 74 agreements, it does not say 71 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,320 seed, it does not say swap or anything closer to that. 72 00:04:50,840 --> 00:04:56,240 All that it says is to give latitudes and longitudes of the 73 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:58,920 IFBL. If you want to talk about the 74 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,960 diplomats, they were very careful not to get into a kind 75 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,080 of controversy that is being whipped up today. 76 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:14,440 Incidentally, Bach bank has hydrocarbon reserves and maybe 77 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:19,680 last year the Government of India has notified the proposal 78 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:26,480 to allocate 3 blocks for gas and oil exploration. 79 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,120 Now anyone with some sense will understand what was the 80 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,440 importance what bank had for Indian negotiators at that time. 81 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:41,360 I am given to understand that Indian experts knew there was 82 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,600 likelihood of hydrocarbon fines in the watch bat. 83 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:49,160 So you'd basically, I mean you'd basically say that it wasn't 84 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,120 like a bad deal or anything. It was basically two countries 85 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,560 just agreeing to sort of set differences aside over issues 86 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,480 that stood between them. Precisely. 87 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:03,000 See, let us look at the world at that time and India at that 88 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:04,000 time. One. 89 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:10,000 We have lost the China for three years earlier, right since 1956 90 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,800 when Egypt nationalized the Suez Canal. 91 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,400 There was the uproar in the international community on the 92 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:23,240 simple question that waterways like that should they be allowed 93 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,080 to be the sovereign property of individual nations or not. 94 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:32,960 This Pak strikes that connects or divides India and Sri Lanka. 95 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,560 Through this agreement we have kept it two of us. 96 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,480 It never became an international waterway. 97 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,560 At that time we had concerns about the US in the Cold War 98 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:45,920 era. Today we have concerns about 99 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,280 China. That will not happen. 100 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:53,000 Yes, you can always say US had was friends of Sri Lanka at that 101 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:54,800 time. China is a friend of Sri Lanka. 102 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,640 These things we have to workout with our diapers. 103 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,520 With regard to Kachitivu, you have a situation where the 104 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,920 central government at one point said it wasn't going to go to 105 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,480 Sri Lanka with the matter. It has told the Supreme Court 106 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,240 that it cannot get back the island. 107 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,080 And you've also written that this issue itself is a dead one 108 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,240 in the state of Tamil Nadu. Why do you say that it won't be 109 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,880 an issue in Tamil Nadu, despite the fact that there's so much 110 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:25,200 sound and fury about it? Sound and food is mostly in the 111 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:30,800 North Indian media and it is reflected here for 30 years now. 112 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,960 Since the age of again Chief Minister in 1991, she has been 113 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,520 hurling this charges particularly against the DMK 114 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,640 rival the late M Karnanidhi as Chief minister. 115 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,440 Even now Edappadi Palanisami, former Chief Minister, he is 116 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,400 doing the same to Karnadi son and President, Chief Minister, 117 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,280 Stalin. Still, they also included the 118 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,800 Congress whenever Congress and DMK were allies. 119 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,920 But the problem here is because it has been beaten about so 120 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,520 much, it is not an election issue. 121 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,120 And Satyamurthy says that even at the height of the civil war 122 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,800 in Sri Lanka, the island was not an issue that reaped political 123 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:16,160 dividends in the state. At the height of the NTTA war in 124 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:22,480 Sri Lanka, Mr. Baiko, who was seen as a spokesman and public 125 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:29,760 face of LTTA or the Tamil issues in Tamil Nadu, contested the Det 126 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:34,320 Vidhinagar Lok Sabha seat in southern Tamil Nadu with the 127 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:39,000 support of ADMK. Under Jayalalitha, he lost his 128 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:44,120 seat by 50,000 plus votes. So it was not an election issue 129 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,320 here. Even then, at the height of the 130 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,000 ethnic issue tended down the line, Pramagaran was killed 131 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:52,600 then. You can imagine the tension that 132 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:58,360 prevailed here in 2014. The late Sushma Swaraj, before 133 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:02,800 she got elected, was in Tamil Nadu lodging a similar campaign 134 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,240 on the larger Tamil Fisher's issue. 135 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:10,320 She even entered the seats in Rameshuram, lodging what she 136 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,440 called Kadal Tamari or Sea Lotus campaign. 137 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,680 The BJP did not win any seats here. 138 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,000 I mean BJP allies because of this issue. 139 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,680 Of course Mr. Pundrada Krishanmunda Kanyakumari seat 140 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,760 because of the parties inherent strength and hits own candidacy. 141 00:09:30,560 --> 00:09:32,800 So even now, it is not an election issue. 142 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,640 N Satyamurthy says there is a genuine issue of fishermen in 143 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,160 Tamil Nadu being caught for trespassing into Sri Lankan 144 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,640 waters. Fishermen in India say Sri Lanka 145 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:44,640 has over 150 boats that it's seized over the past eight 146 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,040 years. Fishermen also face arrest if 147 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:48,680 they strain to Sri Lankan waters. 148 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,560 N Satyamurthy says these are not the issues the BJP is attempting 149 00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:55,000 to talk about when it talks about kachitivu. 150 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:02,200 But the larger Fisher's issue is of considerable interest and 151 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,760 concern in Tamil Nadu, the whole of Tamil Nadu and particularly 152 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:11,600 to Rameshwaram and Ramanathapuram Lok Sabha seat 153 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,680 where Rameshwaram forms. These are two different issue. 154 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,800 Let us not try to bring in Kachatibi into the fishermen 155 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,520 issue for the simple reason. The fishermen locally know there 156 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:27,400 is no fish in Kachatiwi to be fished anymore. 157 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:34,120 It may look different from Delhi political Delhi in particular, 158 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,640 right? That is not the case there, the 159 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,040 Prime Minister or Mushar Namalaya or other central 160 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,640 leaders. They are not talking about the 161 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:46,440 fishing right of fishermen. They are only repeatedly 162 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,680 targeting the Congress political rival and DMK in Tamil Nadu AS 163 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,960 who gave away Kachatiwa. That is not an issue here. 164 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,320 In this case, like you said, it's more of a campaign issue, 165 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,720 but and India hasn't really said anything to Sri Lanka about it, 166 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,920 but how do you view something like this even being said on the 167 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,480 campaign trail? Does it put a strain on a 168 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,520 country that we don't really have any problem with at 169 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,080 present? It has strained our 170 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:20,800 relationship, full stop. We seem to think there is 171 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,360 election only in India. Presidential elections are due 172 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,160 in Sri Lanka by October and the presence is authorized to 173 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,400 dissolve Parliament anytime now. And anyway, Parliament elections 174 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,760 are due before August next year. I'm talking about two major 175 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,840 elections, Presidential and the Parliament. 176 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,840 So we can't say there is a it is a cabin issue only here even 177 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,160 without it despite what we have that we have helped Sri Lanka in 178 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,400 a very big way during economic crisis. 179 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,600 There are those who have been campaigning already even then 180 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,360 even now may be because of the economic crisis they were 181 00:11:58,680 --> 00:12:01,200 keeping their mouths shut because they also did not. 182 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,160 They were shocked for words. But today the situation 183 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,240 different. Even in the last six months, 184 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:13,360 three months or so, there has been a huge anti India campaign 185 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,840 coming up. Some of the big Indian 186 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,040 industries associated or identified with the government 187 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,480 leadership are investing big time there. 188 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,200 And there is a campaign going on on specific issues like the 189 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,480 ecological issue there, political issue there. 190 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,600 Last year when the President Ranil Vikram Singha visited 191 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:39,280 Delhi and signed a series of agreement in the presence of 192 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,440 Prime Minister Modi, One of them was energy cooperation. 193 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:50,320 All of those things were there. But last month I think official 194 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,960 delegation, not even a ministerial delegation, a middle 195 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,600 level official delegation visited Kilombo for furthering 196 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:02,160 their discussions in the matter that across southern Sri Lanka 197 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,400 that is singular area which is a majority area. 198 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,160 Ball posters and India ball posters appeared overnight. 199 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,760 It is one question who is began date, who was funding it and all 200 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,440 those questions doesn't matter. But that sentiment was there. 201 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,240 North Satyamurthy points to the fact that there are former Sri 202 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,440 Lankan ministers who have support in Sinhala areas and 203 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,120 have been accusing India of making investments only to 204 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,440 dominate the industry there. He says even when it comes to 205 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,680 fishermen, the two nations are at loggerheads and a recent 206 00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:37,040 document moved by a minister indicates the sentiment in the 207 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,200 country against India. There are political leaders, 208 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:45,000 former ministers who are even now present with some kind of a 209 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:50,520 limited electoral presence in the CIGLA areas who have openly 210 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:57,360 said India interested money only to subdivas sector by sector, 211 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,200 industry by industry. So these are our political 212 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,880 issues. And remember in the Tamil areas 213 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:07,760 also fishing is a huge problem. They are not saying that they 214 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:12,160 want to share for livelihood issue is common to both them and 215 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,440 Indians. They don't want us. 216 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,440 Last month again. Their Fisheries Minister Douglas 217 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:22,800 Devananda at Tamil has moved what is called the position 218 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:28,720 paper in the cabinet for creating a simple defense force 219 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:35,000 of Tamil fishers to protect themselves against the Tamil 220 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,840 fishermen from India. You can understand what it is 221 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:43,000 intent to do or it will mean. In the mid seas they are 222 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,840 possibly replacing the Sri Lanka Navy with this Civil Defence 223 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,120 Force which will have legitimacy. 224 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,560 Of course, it has not been taken up by the Cabinet, nor has it 225 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,760 been converted into an organization or outfit or 226 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,600 whatever, but that is the mood in Sri Lanka. 227 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,880 The big worry for India, at least earlier before the 228 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,280 economic crisis, was that China was too close to Sri Lanka. 229 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,760 Does this sort of sentiment then push Sri Lanka back towards 230 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,880 China because they just see it as a more convenient 231 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,200 relationship? So I wouldn't say that for 232 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,480 simple reason. There are India friendly 233 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,960 leaders, India friendly people, China friendly leaders, China 234 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,160 friendly people. The balance of convenience, I 235 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:33,760 mean logistics and other things. The majority of them are India 236 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,440 friendly. We have to work overtime to 237 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,680 ensure that they don't suspect India. 238 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:45,120 They don't convert to being neutral first and through China 239 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,480 later because they suspect India. 240 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,200 This is an extreme necessity for India for us to maintain that 241 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,320 relationship. India Today is not what India 242 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,000 was 70 years back when Kachetriba agreement was signed. 243 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:06,440 Today India is strong and says it is strong and the world 244 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,080 believes it is strong. We have to need with with our 245 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:16,080 neighbours through bilateral prism and not through hyphenate 246 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,400 a relationship. China Maldev, China, Sri Lanka, 247 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:24,040 China, Nepal and other thing just don't work In the post Cold 248 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:29,000 War era, sovereignty of individual nations count more 249 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,600 than earlier. That is one of the reasons why 250 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,880 we are in a multipolar world and there is no bipolar world as 251 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,360 during the Cold War. In this circumstances, this 252 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,800 government started with the neighbourhood first policy 253 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:43,960 announcement, which was always there. 254 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:49,480 No one gave it a name and title. So it is incumbent upon this 255 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:54,520 government even more and even future governments to raise 256 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:59,840 about all these things and behave like a elder brother and 257 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,120 not a Big Brother in the eyes of our neighbors. 258 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:07,520 We have to remember only one thing that just as we are 259 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:13,240 watching China or US or China and US earlier, US and Soviet 260 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:18,599 Union, all our neighbors are small and their preoccupation is 261 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:21,560 watching India for good, bad and ugly. 262 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:27,760 So not many people in this country aware of that, and those 263 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,600 who are aware of it don't understand the dynamics of it. 264 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,480 Then how do you view India then making these statements about 265 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,040 its neighbours? And it's not even India making 266 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,720 these statements. It's more a sort of a social 267 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,280 media campaign or something like that, which are internal 268 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,240 campaigns that seem to drum up political support here in some 269 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,440 way. How do you view that, given that 270 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:54,040 its target, in a sense, is a country in the neighbourhood? 271 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,520 See if you are referring to Boycott Maldives campaign in the 272 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,720 recent past to say take only an example, it was a disastrous 273 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,160 campaign. He has three deputy ministers in 274 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,240 that government which was already perceived by as anti 275 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:16,240 India by the Indian media from as far as I can see from in the 276 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:22,280 Maldivian newspapers and even Indian official frustratements. 277 00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:27,000 Yes there is a strain, visible strain but they are trying to 278 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:32,160 working over it or around it. But the Indian media bent all 279 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,840 out social media even worse just because three ministers had a 280 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,680 comment to make against India or even the Indian Prime Minister 281 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,320 which was defamatory. Of course there are official 282 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:49,200 channels to take it up with the government there. 283 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,040 If you look at the even Maldives or Srinagar, other than 284 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,120 editorial news and all that, social media is the the 285 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:00,560 Maldivian said. For instance, only the president 286 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,200 speaks, no minister speaks out in India. 287 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,400 That kind of a situation should arise here. 288 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,400 Yes, there are differences, may be some of it need to be aired 289 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:16,240 but not in the social media. The minute someone in Delhi 290 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,920 understood that this has not gone down well or the way it 291 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,560 might have been perceived, the social media campaign against 292 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,280 boycott Maldives, it stopped all of a sudden. 293 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:32,160 Who was holding the key? That question arose in Maldives, 294 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,640 the sheets of Maldives. They haven't stopped asking that 295 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:40,960 questions of themselves. Do we do this or we habituated 296 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,600 to do this sort of election campaigns where we say anything 297 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,800 we want against anything and anyone and we just expect them 298 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,120 to forgive us? Have we done this before or is 299 00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:51,800 this a new dynamic that we are also? 300 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:58,000 For instance, if we take only this has been a political drama 301 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,920 in Tamil Nadu. I won't say even drama, 302 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,680 something more campaign point or factual or whatever you want to 303 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,000 believe. Government of India leaders, if 304 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:11,320 they are. That the Congress that was being 305 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,720 attacked, they would rebut it or if even if it is a BJP. 306 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:20,000 For instance, 199899 Vajpayee was the Prime Minister for six 307 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:23,040 years. Even in 2004 the central 308 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:28,360 government was very clear not to commit itself or comment on any 309 00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:31,240 of these things. That will be seen as affecting 310 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,920 good neighbourly relations and they should not become anti 311 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,600 India. That was an extra care they took 312 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,920 at that time. I think that is slipping up or 313 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,240 that has slipped up here on this recent months. 314 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:53,680 Today's episode was produced by Jayaraj Singh and Sahil Gupta. 315 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,560 For a daily spotlight on people, ideas and stories that matter, 316 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,600 subscribe to us. We're available on Ty Plus, 317 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,040 Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts, and all other platforms of your 318 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,040 choice. For any new steps, e-mail us at 319 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,000 toipodcast at timesinternet dot in.