1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,080 From Indias largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:20,190 Times of India podcast. God is infallible. 3 00:00:20,710 --> 00:00:23,950 There is no error. That's the definition of God 4 00:00:23,950 --> 00:00:27,680 with a capital G. But gods don't always have a 5 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:31,840 capital G While some faiths have this one big God who governs it, 6 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,400 all others have multiple gods who interact with each other and 7 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,240 the world of humans. But while some gods make errors 8 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,760 that sometimes their human followers have to deal with and 9 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,320 take lessons from, some gods are said to never make any errors. 10 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,600 What may seem like an error is often a way of teaching their 11 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,360 followers something. In today's episode, my colleague 12 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,360 Jayarat Singh and I are in conversation with author and 13 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:56,800 mythologist Devdutt Patnaik about why some gods are seen as 14 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,320 making mistakes and why others don't. 15 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:02,760 Devdutt explains why gods in different religions and myths 16 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,520 behave very differently, and why we like our gods to be blameless 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,440 and error free. He explains how the idea of an 18 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,840 all powerful God emerged, how the idea's influence stretched 19 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,240 into other faiths, and why it's been an attractive premise for 20 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,960 leaders all through time. So I would imagine that, you 21 00:01:19,960 --> 00:01:24,520 know, we would like to describe God as being the all powerful. 22 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:29,200 Even in faiths that have many gods, you would want to still 23 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,240 embolize that one powerful God. Can you tell us a little bit 24 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:37,600 about this whole allure of having Boeing down to that one 25 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:39,840 person, which is obviously predominantly a male? 26 00:01:40,960 --> 00:01:44,120 So this is because of the colonial discourse, because most 27 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,560 of our stories were written by colonial authors. 28 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:49,240 How do you and I know the Norse mythology? 29 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,960 How do you and I know Greek mythology? 30 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,560 They are written by colonial people, scholars who are red red 31 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,160 but essentially Christian in their training and subjects like 32 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,480 anthropology and sociology had not evolved. 33 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,880 And I think the human mind if you look at it, we like a simple 34 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,960 solution like there should be 1 formula to solve all problems. 35 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,440 We love this one thing. Gram barn as they say in Hindi. 36 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,280 We want this one thing which will strike the target and solve 37 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,080 everything. And we are always looking for 38 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,440 it, Never goes away. Humans are always looking for 39 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,280 it. If you look at in the old 40 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,720 smaller groups, perhaps there was a more democratic way of 41 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:27,760 living, with different people having different power at 42 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:29,880 different times. Then there were collaborative 43 00:02:29,920 --> 00:02:32,840 ecosystems, and gradually you have this autocratic ecosystem 44 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,160 emerging where there is only one king who decides everything. 45 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,760 I think the way the political structure grows as you become 46 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,680 larger and larger, very weirdly, you start getting irritated with 47 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:46,600 collaboration, you start getting irritated with democracy and you 48 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,200 want kind of a dictatorship which seems to be simpler and 49 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:52,840 more efficient. And therefore 1 God who solves 50 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,720 all problems becomes the answer. And let's understand it's one of 51 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,920 the reasons why the Roman Empire chose to become Christian. 52 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,520 Christianity spread as an imperial exercise. 53 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,800 It became popular with the slaves because he offered 54 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:08,280 salvation. The stories of martyrdom emerged 55 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,720 and spread amongst the aristocrats. 56 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,640 There were other cults like this, but it's Christianity 57 00:03:13,640 --> 00:03:18,200 which won over which it gave this idea one God and his 58 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,560 archangels. And this idea was very familiar 59 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,880 to Rome, because one thing we don't realize is that they were 60 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,600 fighting the Parthians, who were Zoroastrians and who also had 61 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,560 this idea of one God and with and even that one enemy. 62 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,760 Not even multiple enemies. One enemy. 63 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,120 So there was one God, one enemy. Ahura Mazda and Angra Manu. 64 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,160 And that was the fight. It was a very simple line. 65 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,200 Good things come from Ahura Mazda. 66 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,720 Bad thing comes from Angra Manu, God devil. 67 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:50,680 This idea of the devil came in many ways from Persia percolates 68 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,520 into the Roman Empire, Roman Empire, which at that time is 69 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,240 polytheistic. It's also democratic system. 70 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,160 It was the Republic at one time. Then the Caesars come and then 71 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,480 it becomes a monarchy. And as it becomes a monarchy, it 72 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,240 becomes monotheistic. So there's clearly a correlation 73 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:10,680 between monotheism, the history of imperial Roman Empire. 74 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,600 That's when for the first time it's an imperial decree that 75 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,880 everybody should follow this religion, those who don't, so 76 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,680 that all the temples are broken. This never happened before 300 77 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,760 CE. So roughly the time Gupta Empire 78 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,200 was happening in India, we know the Roman trade collapses. 79 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:26,920 Something major has happened in Europe. 80 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,440 Now what has happened major? The Roman Empire has become 81 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,040 Christian. It is going inwards. 82 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:37,000 It is talking about against hedonism and they're talking 83 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,560 about salvation. And the church will give you 84 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,760 salvation. And the church is becoming very, 85 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,840 very, very powerful, the Roman Church. 86 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,520 And even then you see the split, the Byzantium split, the emperor 87 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,880 moves to Byzantium. There are different churches 88 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,200 seeking absolute control, which gives rise to the Orthodox 89 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,920 Church, which gives rise to what is called the Catholic Church. 90 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,360 There were churches in ancient Egypt. 91 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,560 You see monotheism as being part of an imperial exercise and 92 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:05,400 something that has to be remembered. 93 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:11,520 And in these monotheistic order of belief, is there any room for 94 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,040 the God to make any mistake? Are there any Gray areas? 95 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,320 God is infallible. There is no error. 96 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,360 That's the definition of God with a capital G In the Jewish 97 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:24,720 faith you don't even take his name. 98 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,440 There is no name. His name shall not be spoken. 99 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,840 It's this forbidding deity who has created the world and made 100 00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:33,280 humans on top of the plant and animal Kingdom. 101 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,720 There's not a two way traffic. It's a one way traffic. 102 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:40,280 There's God and you shall obey the angels obey him, the demons 103 00:05:40,280 --> 00:05:43,240 disobey him. The structure is very linear. 104 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,280 It's there is no feedback loop and improvement. 105 00:05:46,280 --> 00:05:49,560 The God will can be improved upon, or you can complain to 106 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:51,680 him. You can appeal to him. 107 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,280 So you have this idea of the appeal and the petition. 108 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,360 Even in the Sufi's traditions where they say he's my lover, 109 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,520 he's my beloved, the is masculine and you are the 110 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,200 feminine. The power gradient is very 111 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,200 clean. It may be a loving relationship, 112 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,800 but you're not an equal. Is that also where the the 113 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,640 concept of blasphemy comes from? Where you cannot speak against 114 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,800 you're gods because they're incapable of errors. 115 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,920 So you have to see it from even the human point of view now that 116 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,200 when the child talks back to the parent, the parent doesn't like 117 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,120 it. This kind of authority which 118 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,160 exists even within family, we would like the younger 119 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,720 generation to listen to the older generation. 120 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,760 So I think this is projected in the idea of God who's so perfect 121 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,880 that he cannot be challenged, his ideas cannot be challenged. 122 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:41,680 And again, it becomes a very political idea. 123 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:43,760 You can't hear God. You have to hear God through an 124 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,360 institution and the institution will tell you this is the way 125 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,000 you're supposed to be. The institution can decide what 126 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:50,800 is blasphemy. This is right. 127 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,040 That is wrong. And that's really a very 128 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,120 powerful political control. God wants you to do this. 129 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,960 God wants you to be homophobic. The God wants you to kill all 130 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:01,320 the people who don't believe in him. 131 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,120 These ideas are human ideas. They could easily be military 132 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:09,200 ideas, but the moment you sort of outsource it to God, you get 133 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,880 unbelievable level of authority, which you don't have to prove 134 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,520 because how do you prove that God said so? 135 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,600 You just say, well, it's written in the holiest book and you 136 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:22,320 cannot challenge it. So there is no argument there. 137 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,320 So it's finished. And that happens, right? 138 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,720 You see this in a lot of religious people. 139 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:28,280 They just said, well, it's written the text, it's written 140 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,520 the Bible, it's written in the Quran, it's written in the 141 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,120 Vedas, and now that becomes difficult to negotiate. 142 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,760 Now there's no human factor, so I think it's a very powerful 143 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:41,120 political tool, which sort of is also very seductive to 144 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,760 politicians. You have things like, say, Norse 145 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:48,440 and Roman gods who keep making mistakes upon mistakes. 146 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,160 They dig themselves into these sort of deep holes. 147 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,520 They emerge from them only because they are gods. 148 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:56,480 The mortals are kind of left to fend for themselves. 149 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:01,800 Why do some myths go this way and have gods that are like that 150 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,800 and others that don't? Let's look at take an example of 151 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,960 Greek mythologies. So Greek mythologies have a 152 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,680 whole bunch of gods, and all the gods have different powers, but 153 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,840 there's no one all powerful God. There is a leader amongst the 154 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,320 gods called Zeus, but he is also sharing his power with his 155 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:25,560 brothers who control the sea, control the afterlife and so 156 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,640 there is not complete power. And he himself has achieved the 157 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,000 status by defeating the Titans. And the Titans had achieved 158 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,120 their status by defeating the giants. 159 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,480 And you're afraid that the current power system can be 160 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,400 replaced and he can be replaced by humans, and therefore he, the 161 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:46,840 the gods of Olympus, distract human beings through wars, keep 162 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,240 them busy with adventures, So they're so busy with the mundane 163 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,400 stuff of life that they don't have time to come together and 164 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,080 plot against the gods and take over and become gods themselves. 165 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,720 This is a very different idea of God, right? 166 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,000 It's very different from the Middle Eastern pattern. 167 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,720 The Norse people did not have a word called God. 168 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,920 They had the vaneer. And the ale who lived in 169 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,000 different parts of the world is like a tree. 170 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,080 And every branch of the tree has a different universe. 171 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:15,880 And in these different worlds there are different kinds of 172 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,320 people. And then what we call the Norse 173 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,320 gods, all the gods have their halls on different branch or a 174 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,880 sub branch. So humans live in one of those 175 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,240 branches. So we are one of many creatures. 176 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:29,200 There are elves, there are demons. 177 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,840 And the closest we get to understanding them is by films 178 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,320 like Lord of the Rings. Of course, a lot of the Rings 179 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,680 goes judeo-christian because he tries to make them good and bad 180 00:09:37,680 --> 00:09:40,200 and all that. But the Norse did not have it. 181 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,520 They were trouble making gods. It was Loki the trickster. 182 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,560 And the gods knew that one day they're going to die, the tree 183 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:49,920 is going to be broken, and there's an assumption that maybe 184 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,080 the tree will come back again and the new world will emerge. 185 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,400 So it's a very different world where the gods are going to die. 186 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,600 So you see, these are not all powerful gods. 187 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,360 They are negotiating with human beings. 188 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,640 They they like human beings to come to them. 189 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,600 They want soldiers around them. Why would people worship a 190 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,040 particular God if you didn't give them something in return? 191 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,400 So there's a lot of negotiation going to happen. 192 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,880 Exchange is going to happen. I'm going to give you a gift. 193 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:18,400 What will you give me an exchange or I will make your 194 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:19,880 life miserable unless you worship me. 195 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:21,640 And you find these in many tribal deities. 196 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,080 If you go to Bengal for example, you have Mansa, Mangal, Maha, 197 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,840 Kavya and where the goddess it basically says that I'm the 198 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,760 goddess of snakes and I'm going to make life miserable if you 199 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:35,560 don't worship me or you have Mamangara in Orissa, you know a 200 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:39,800 woman is waiting for her brother and her husbands to come back 201 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:44,200 from their trip across the sea. These are the Sadabas. 202 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,760 These are the people who are ship sailing aristocrats. 203 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,840 They travel in one part of the year when the winds are blowing 204 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:54,880 towards the Southeast Asia and the return in the second part of 205 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,480 the year when you pray to this goddess and you remember her and 206 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,920 you give her the food you want. In exchange she ensures that 207 00:10:59,920 --> 00:11:04,040 your brother or your husband or your son comes back safely. 208 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,160 So Chet Puja and all is really coming from those traditions, 209 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,680 but you give the gods, you acknowledge the gods and in 210 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:12,040 exchange that gods give you back something else. 211 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,160 And these are the old practices. So you have these two schools of 212 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,840 thought broadly, which exists, the polytheistic thought and the 213 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,720 monotheistic. Therefore, when we talk of gods, 214 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,800 we have to clarify and India is mixed of both. 215 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:26,960 It's a mix of both the monotheistic and the 216 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,760 polytheistic for its various historical reasons. 217 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:35,360 In Hindu mythology, how do we see mistakes that which is not 218 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,560 criminally wrong? What is the grey area as far as 219 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:43,160 gods themselves exhibiting this? The Shades of Grey and gods 220 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,360 dealing with humans showing them a benevolence. 221 00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:49,520 There's no concept of a code of conduct. 222 00:11:49,680 --> 00:11:53,440 The monotheistic faiths have a very clear code of conduct. 223 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:55,000 God says you should live like this. 224 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,960 That's very clean. It comes from Haburabi's code, 225 00:11:57,960 --> 00:11:59,440 so there is a clear code of conduct. 226 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:01,680 Hinduism never had that code of conduct. 227 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:05,600 The closest you have is a phrase called sanatan, the timeless way 228 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,240 of assignment. And nobody really knows what it 229 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:09,000 means. There was this correct way of 230 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,200 being and you and depending on who you ask, it could mean doing 231 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,440 your cast, responsibilities, gender, responsibilities and 232 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,880 really this word Sanatan that really starts becoming popular 233 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:24,200 in the Mahabharat when the feudal systems are emerging in 234 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,240 India. So you can actually see this 235 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,600 yearning for a code of conduct to control people. 236 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,960 And this idea of there is a proper way of being called 237 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,080 Sanatan Dharami emerging. And the variations from it is 238 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:38,960 always decided by a Brahmin lobby. 239 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:41,640 And the Brahman lobby says, OK, we have the Dharma shastras and 240 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:46,400 we will tell you what is Anatan Dharma and it somehow happens. 241 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,400 The Brahmins are always in a privileged position. 242 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,640 The land owners are always in a privileged position. 243 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:56,000 So you see that people use the voice of God to determine 244 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:59,440 different, different things depending on the realities of 245 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,160 society. At no point do we say that being 246 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,520 nasty is blasphemous. You're always talking about 247 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,200 don't be nasty to God, but I can be nasty to everyone else. 248 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,640 So long as I go to the temple and I behave like a pious being. 249 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,200 It's fine, but I can be an obnoxious human being outside. 250 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,240 So you create this kind of an artificial structure because in 251 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,560 your mind there is a God out there in front of whom you're 252 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:24,640 like the schoolboy who comes on times and sits in front of the 253 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,960 front bench. But you are the bully outside in 254 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,920 the playground, and somehow the teacher does not know that part 255 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,400 of you, because the teacher only sees you in the classroom coming 256 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,000 on time, doing your homework. And you can see this kind of 257 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:42,520 approach, this almost childish approach across religions. 258 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:46,640 I'm also wondering that like while you have like say a Vishnu 259 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,800 avatar like say Krishna who interacts with humans, you have 260 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,720 a who again interacts with humans. 261 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,880 But there are some gods even above that. 262 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,760 Like like I was discussing with Jayarajan clearly only. 263 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,680 What is a Brahma? I I don't quite know what he 264 00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:05,040 does in the barring the creation aspect, has he made any 265 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:06,880 mistakes? Has he ever interacted with 266 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,400 humans and had any? Well, not so great experiences. 267 00:14:11,680 --> 00:14:14,360 So in India you have the monotheistic and the 268 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,560 polytheistic merged with each other. 269 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:21,520 And the idea is that every human being is potentially capable of 270 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:24,040 being divine. And if that is so, that means 271 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:25,360 you all have the code of being divine. 272 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,680 That's why there's a common phrase that God is inside you, 273 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,680 which means you all have a potential to be like the divine. 274 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,880 And how do you explain this? Hey, let me tell you the story 275 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,600 of a king who manifested the divine and his name was Ram. 276 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,680 Or let me tell you the story of a cowherd who manifested the 277 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:45,840 divine and his name was Krishna. So now I have these stories to 278 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:47,800 tell. What happens when divinity 279 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,960 manifests on earth because everybody else is struggling 280 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:55,760 with hunger and fear. Now that brings us to the big 281 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,240 gods. So there's Brahma, who creates 282 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,520 all the living beings, and all living beings are hungry and 283 00:15:01,520 --> 00:15:04,320 frightened, and they're fighting over property and territory. 284 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,120 And that's Brahma now, because he's created this world which is 285 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,200 full of violence and conflict and contradictions. 286 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,560 His job is done over there. We are the children of Brahma, 287 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,320 not worthy of worship because he's not made a life better. 288 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,880 Who do you worship? You worship a Shiva or a Vishnu 289 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,000 who tells you how to manifest the divine inside you? 290 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,240 And what is the divine inside you is your ability to be a nice 291 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,040 person. And how can you be a nice person 292 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:34,600 no matter what job you're doing? And what is the definition of a 293 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,200 nice person? So just as every tree lives for 294 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,840 itself and its ecosystem and doesn't behave like a parasite, 295 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,960 humans have the capability of living for themselves and their 296 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,280 ecosystem. So you worship a Shiva and a 297 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,480 Vishnu because Shiva is more saying hunger and fear. 298 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,120 I will destroy hunger and fear. So you worship him. 299 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:55,640 Oh wonderful. But Vishnu says, hey, it's not 300 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:56,880 enough to destroy hunger and fear. 301 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,080 It's also important to pay attention to other people's 302 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,240 hunger and fear. And so the other becomes 303 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:02,920 important. Now see these ideas? 304 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,080 It's very different from the monotheistic structures. 305 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,240 The operating system I'm giving you now is not about this is the 306 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,120 code of conduct the way you're supposed to behave. 307 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,760 It is not this linear imperial model. 308 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:19,120 This is a model which is talking about human life and how to 309 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:20,800 engage. It almost sounds like a self 310 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,400 help book where you're trying to tell how to live as a member of 311 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,560 society because the concern in Indian society was never an 312 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,040 imperial power. These imperial ideas come to 313 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,680 India only after the Mughal Empire. 314 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,640 We have this Chakravarthy idea as a theory but he's never 315 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,920 imperial as in controlling every aspect of your life. 316 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:43,600 This idea of the monotheistic monarchy emerges in India really 317 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,360 at the time of the Mughal Empire. 318 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,000 The Vijayanagar Empire, which is such a big empire is not a 319 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,840 centrally controlled empire. Indian were Raja Mandalas, which 320 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:54,480 means no king who had absolute power. 321 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:58,320 He would negotiate with his. In fact, there were five major 322 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,560 confederacies within the Vijayanagar Empire and you see 323 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,119 this replicating itself in the Maratha Empire. 324 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:09,319 We talk about Shatrapati Shivaji Maharaja's single, but really in 325 00:17:09,319 --> 00:17:12,560 its height of its power it was the Bhoslas and the Shindes and 326 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,760 the Bholkars and the Peshwas and they were a confederacy. 327 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,079 It's never a central control in India. 328 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:21,640 Central control is a very new idea. 329 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,960 You see this fierce resistance in India which is very 330 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,200 uncomfortable with this idea of this one hegemonic way of being. 331 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,040 Although you keep having this idea that there's only one God, 332 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,520 Paramatma Ishwara. But he keeps manifesting in 333 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,280 different ways in different ecosystems. 334 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,280 So it's like a compromise between the monotheistic way and 335 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,520 the polytheistic way. There is a constant negotiation 336 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:46,120 between one God is many, many God is 1. 337 00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:48,520 These ideas are not Islamic. These ideas are not Christian. 338 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,640 These are uniquely Hindu gods In China, where you have many gods 339 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:58,840 and every and every God follows a very clear hierarchical model. 340 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,480 Whoever is the most senior or the most powerful, everybody 341 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,720 bows to him. The alpha is all powerful in a 342 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,280 species, so the Chinese follow that model. 343 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,080 Very clear alpha pecking order model. 344 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:12,960 Very, very clean. India doesn't like the pecking 345 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,640 order model because it's command, it's Mada, it's pride, 346 00:18:16,640 --> 00:18:21,560 it's the egos that is rejected. The idea of one rule fits all is 347 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,480 rejected because there is a talking of diversity dynamisms. 348 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,280 So the diversity and dynamism of India does not allow 349 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,520 monotheistic practices. And because polytheistic 350 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,640 practices do not bind people together, you have this kind of 351 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,880 a new mix of the monotheism and polytheism. 352 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:41,840 And it's not well understood because the British tried to 353 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,240 understand India using their monotheistic framework and 354 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,680 privileged monotheism. Even today, when you hear some 355 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,240 of these Babajis talking, you can see they are really talking 356 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,080 a very imperial language of power. 357 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,800 And it's triumphalist, it's imperial and it's marketed as 358 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,120 religion. But imperialism is not religion. 359 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,880 So imperialism is a kind of religion? 360 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:07,880 In India we have a rich tradition of humans who have 361 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:13,520 either attained God like a divine personifications or who 362 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,400 we we describe as avatars of gods. 363 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,920 Do we get a sense of whether they are infallible or not? 364 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,840 When I read the Buddhist and Jain scriptures, you see people 365 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,640 who live ordinary lives, so they are finite beings who over time 366 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:31,880 through spiritual practices becoming larger than life and 367 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:36,000 they become infinite beings. So the Buddha becomes infinite, 368 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,400 he becomes larger than Adi Buddha. 369 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,160 He becomes this part of the cosmos he sees as being human. 370 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:45,040 And in the Mahayana Buddhist traditions, there are many 371 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:46,520 Buddhists. He's like sort of part of the 372 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,160 larger realm and it's visualized with these massive statues in 373 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,600 China. So from the finite you become 374 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:54,680 infinite, from the small you become the big. 375 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:57,080 Hinduism brings a different idea. 376 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,160 There is an infinite being out there called Vishnu or 377 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:05,960 Paramatma, and he manifests compassion, kindness on earth as 378 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,040 a finite being. You have to live in a finite 379 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,000 being. You have to deal with other 380 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,080 finite beings. The difference being you are a 381 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,320 finite being with wisdom, but you're surrounded by finite 382 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,520 beings who are ignorant. And these kind of engagements 383 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,280 will always create complications because the the people you're 384 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,720 dealing with are hungry and stupid and ignorant and that 385 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,280 you're here for them. And you have to realize that in 386 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,920 the finite world your God like powers won't work. 387 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,360 So Vishnu can do many magical things as Vishnu, but the moment 388 00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:43,080 he becomes Ram, he's controlled by the rules of his body and his 389 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,040 birth. He's a Roy, eldest son of the 390 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,000 royal family. He can't just fly through the 391 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:51,000 air and rescue his wife, which he can't because he's divine. 392 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,160 He has magical powers. But no, you haven't been given a 393 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,000 human body and therefore you're limited by your human abilities 394 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,000 and you will behave with the dignity that a eldest son of the 395 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,000 royal family. So they are trying to explain 396 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,840 what it means to be supremely wise but be limited by a body. 397 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,040 Now these are complex ideas. These are ideas which are very 398 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,280 subcontinental. They really emerged in India. 399 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,920 And you know, even today you see people talking nonsense when 400 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,400 they talk about Rama and Mahabharat purans and you 401 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:24,320 realize they are so in in all of the imperial discourse because 402 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:27,680 your body loves it, right? You love the Ravana, we love the 403 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:29,480 Ravana. But since it's not politically 404 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,680 correct to say I love the Ravana, I will sort of frame it 405 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:37,080 differently and frame it to rationalize it and say actually 406 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:39,240 I am this. And then Indians are very good 407 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,480 with rationalizations and we figure out these things. 408 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,880 But in India, if you look at folk stories, there are 409 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,880 quarreling stories. Shivas wife Parvati is 410 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:51,480 quarreling with Lakshmi who complaining about Vishnu and 411 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,160 saying, oh, your husband is a cowherd. 412 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:54,880 He just wanders around with the cows. 413 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:57,160 And then Lakshmi says, but what about your husband? 414 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,120 He doesn't do any work. He doesn't even know that snakes 415 00:22:00,360 --> 00:22:03,240 are not to be kept in your body. But he decorates himself with 416 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:04,680 snake. Now these are these kind of a 417 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,560 folk banter and therefore that brings you intimate with the 418 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,400 gods. So if you go to Odisha 419 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,400 Jagannathpuri, you will talk about God is your friend, You go 420 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,640 to Pandharpur, God is a friend. You go to Srinathji, The God is 421 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,720 a friend. The Sakha Bhava das Abhava. 422 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,800 You want to look at him as your master. 423 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,480 He is your Madhuri Abhava. He's your lover. 424 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,600 Vatsali Abhava, he's your child. So you have different emotional 425 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,800 approaches to deal with the divine and you talk to them the 426 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,560 way you would talk to a friend, a parent. 427 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:35,760 And these are not ideas that are found in other parts of the 428 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,760 world. Since we are living in a global 429 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,000 discourse. And we are in a way fascinated 430 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,280 by the kind of power that a sort of a Catholic Church has. 431 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,560 You know, you want that power. That's what the religious 432 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,200 establishments in India is trying to be. 433 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,320 The Matas are trying to suddenly say that we are the spokesperson 434 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,280 of Hinduism. They never were. 435 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:57,880 It was always a collaborative activity. 436 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,400 The Qurans were written in courts in collaboration with 437 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,160 otherwise people. Every Quran was designed like a 438 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,240 vision statement of the Kingdom and every king. 439 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,040 And therefore you see the Quran's look a little 440 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,960 complicated because scholars have now realized that these 441 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,200 were documents that guided the king on how to conduct and 442 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,360 therefore it was always organic. But it was never that. 443 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,840 All power is with this mud. You outsource religion to one 444 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,280 group of people. No. 445 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,880 Religion is a outcome of every human beings, aspirations and 446 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,440 needs in India. It is not something 447 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,800 transcendental and outside and perfect, known only to a group 448 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,840 of people. That's a very western model 449 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,680 which the British introduced to India, which the Islam 450 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:43,480 introduced to India. And we're trying to create these 451 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,440 matters and some Pradas, but they work only small pockets, 452 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,280 not Pan India. And that that's the thing, India 453 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,080 is too diverse. What applies in Himachal will 454 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,760 not apply in Uttarakhand. What applies in Uttarakhand will 455 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,560 not apply to Bihar. Jharkhand will be so different. 456 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,160 Odissa will be different. And that's the thing. 457 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,480 Once you recognize this and you allow these local polities to 458 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,200 emerge, then things work out quite comfortably in our 459 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,480 country. This whole imperial model is 460 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,360 where you are standing in the presence of God, know how to 461 00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:18,720 behave. When Krishna shows his infinite 462 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,520 form to Arjun, he's not trying to intimidate him. 463 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:23,040 He's saying, you know, I want to show you reality. 464 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,840 And when you see reality, you are in awe of it. 465 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,440 It's not done to intimidate, but truth is intimidating. 466 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,840 But truth has no consciousness to intimidate you. 467 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,800 It's very unlike a God showing his power. 468 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,000 It's a very different. It's this idea that if I show 469 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,440 you Infinity, you suddenly realize how small you are and 470 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,400 then you realize, Oh my God, I think I'm so important. 471 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,400 I'm not to. Shock in all you not to destroy 472 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,280 you. Even when we use these words 473 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,640 like I'm trying to shock in all you, there's a personal agenda 474 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:51,280 over there. It's like if I take you and 475 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,880 throw you in space. Space is not trying to 476 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,280 intimidate us, but when we experience space and the 477 00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,880 hollowness and silence of space, I think it can be quite 478 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:00,680 overwhelming. When we are talking about 479 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:04,280 monotheism, there is an assumption of a mind out there 480 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,240 and that is theological conversation. 481 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,000 But definitely politicians like that idea of this one powerful 482 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,240 God who sort of says don't look into my eyes because I'm 483 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,880 special, I'm superior and more powerful than you are. 484 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,760 Today's episode was produced by Jayraj Singh and Anuja Singh. 485 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,440 For a daily spotlight on people, ideas and stories that matter, 486 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,920 subscribe to us. We are available on TOI, 487 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,840 Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts and all other platforms of your 488 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,120 choice. For any news tips, e-mail us at 489 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,920 TOI Podcast at Timesinternet dot in.