1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,680 From Indias largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:16,200 Times of India podcast. So we start this episode with 3 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:18,800 some basic economics. When we talk about the Indian 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,440 economy, the number that's always touted is the gross 5 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,600 domestic product, or GDP. But a very integral part of GDP 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,040 is consumption. We asked our guest on today's 7 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:29,600 episode. Why is that? 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:35,040 One of the ways of looking at GDP is a combination of how much 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,040 we spend as householders, the total people of India, how much 10 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,320 we spend, how much the government spends and how much 11 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,520 money is invested by companies and people who invest in in in 12 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,000 India. So the how much we spend drives 13 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,720 our economy because when we spend then people invest behind 14 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:57,840 what we spend. So how much we spend is 1. 15 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,440 Component of the total economy to give you a number is between 16 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,080 50 and 60%. So between 50 and 60% of Indias 17 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,960 total economy is contributed to by household consumption or how 18 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:13,360 much all of us consume. So it is a huge chunk. 19 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,040 It is much smaller for a country like China. 20 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,080 So we always say that we are a consumption driven economy, 21 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,400 which basically means that if we start spending less and less and 22 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,040 less as people then our GDP doesn't grow as handsomely. 23 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,920 That's Rama Bijapurkar, who is one of India's most respected 24 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:37,120 voices on consumer behavior. She's a researcher, an 25 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,920 independent director on companies boards and an author 26 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,600 of multiple books that seek to decode consumer behavior in 27 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:44,640 India. Her latest book is titled 28 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,680 Lilliputland, How Small is Driving India's Mega Consumption 29 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,360 Story that has been published by Penguin Random House. 30 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,920 The book is an insight into the Indian consumer and seeks to 31 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,160 explain what many businesses continue to get wrong about the 32 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,840 Indian consumer. In today's episode, Rama 33 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,640 Bijapurkar is in conversation with my colleague Jayarat Singh 34 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,160 and me about the book and her own insights into the people 35 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,320 that power India's economy. She explains what companies have 36 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,000 been doing wrong since the pandemic and what worries her 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,520 about the state of India's economy. 38 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,360 We also discussed the brands that have most impressed her for 39 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:18,920 their understanding of the Indian consumer and how our 40 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:21,760 cities need to change if we are to see sustainable growth. 41 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,280 We started by asking her why, She says the Indian consumer 42 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:27,240 market is one of the least understood. 43 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,720 In your book Lilliput Land, you say that India is one of the 44 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:34,760 least understood consumer markets. 45 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,440 Why would you say that? Firstly, we're just this hydra 46 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,680 headed monster. We are just so many parts to us 47 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,080 and we're so many Indias, so everything you say, the opposite 48 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:46,720 is true. There is rich India. 49 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:50,640 There is poor India. There is IT India which catches 50 00:02:50,640 --> 00:02:55,000 a cold when America sneezes. There is agricultural India that 51 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,440 starts feeling unwell when there are no rains. 52 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,080 So they're just different forces at work. 53 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,120 We all know about the number of languages, the number of 54 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,720 customs. We don't even have a single New 55 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,280 Year's Day. Then again, I think we're not so 56 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,680 understood because we're full of contradictions. 57 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,880 I mean, people say that oh, as you get richer, foreigners have 58 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:18,240 often asked me, Surely you will start having choosing your own 59 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,800 spouses and not having arranged marriages. 60 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,000 But now I find that parents are still looking, except they're 61 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,200 looking online. Arranged marriages have now 62 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:31,800 become engineered marriages. And as is often said, the dating 63 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,400 market may have been decontrolled, but the meeting 64 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:39,800 market is still very controlled. Another example is that the 65 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,520 lower income you are, the more you love technology. 66 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,240 Why? Because people tell us that the 67 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,120 ATM doesn't care whether you withdraw ₹2 or ₹200, wear 68 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,120 pajamas or wear jeans. Lower income people love talking 69 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,960 to IVR machines because it is status blind in terms of the 70 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,520 service it offers. In America, the roads came 71 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,520 first, The roads became the central nervous system. 72 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,880 In India, the mobile phones came first. 73 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,840 That became our central nervous system. 74 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,960 And hopefully the roads are coming very, very quickly after 75 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,320 we process value differently. When we look at something and 76 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,079 say pesa vasool, kinnei vasool, it's not necessarily the best 77 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:21,399 branded handbag. So there are many ways in which 78 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:24,880 we don't follow the norms that have been set elsewhere in the 79 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:26,920 world that tends to confuse people. 80 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,480 What for you are the biggest misconceptions about India's 81 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:34,080 rural consumer? Because there is a certain idea 82 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,120 we have about the rural consumer, right? 83 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,960 I think we tend to look at rural India sometimes the same way we 84 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,720 complain that MNCS of foreigners think about us. 85 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,760 And that means that we think it's stuck in the dark ages. 86 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:54,520 It's poor, you know, It doesn't know what's happening in the 87 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,080 world. But in actual fact there are a 88 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,200 few things that are happening with rural I1 is that half of 89 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,680 Indias rich live in rural India and most of Indias poor live in 90 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,360 rural India. So when we say, oh, rural 91 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:10,600 markets are growing, it could just be that the rich people in 92 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,760 the rural markets are actually consuming more and they are 93 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:18,280 there out of choice. So we also assume that they're 94 00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:21,920 unevolved and unexposed. But actually aspiration is the 95 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,160 same for both. They listen to the same TV 96 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,400 programs you have. They're also on OTT as much as 97 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,760 the rest of us are, maybe a different language, OTT. 98 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,480 There is exposure, there is. So the gap between urban and 99 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,280 rural in terms of mindset is actually melting. 100 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,880 So when you have Rd. connectivity, YouTube 101 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:43,960 connectivity, it blurs differences. 102 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:47,800 People often tell me that when they go out looking for offering 103 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:52,120 skills in rural areas, beauty parlour skills are actually in 104 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,520 demand because that's where the demand actually lies. 105 00:05:54,920 --> 00:06:00,960 So the the big misconception is that the new quote UN quote 106 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,440 villager is the old villager. What do you propose for 107 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,160 companies to do with this understanding that you know the 108 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,520 rich are not concentrated in urban spaces? 109 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,440 I expect them to stop saying that once I finish the top 100 110 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:18,480 cities in India distribution, then maybe three years later I 111 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,320 will go to smaller towns and another five years later I will 112 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:25,080 go to rural. The point I make in my book also 113 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,200 is that the rich are everywhere in every little pocket. 114 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:32,680 And now with connectivity and airports and hopefully another 5 115 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,160 Indigos, we actually will find that people are opting to stay 116 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,240 for better quality of life in smaller towns. 117 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,840 And if Internet connectivity improves everywhere more 118 00:06:42,840 --> 00:06:45,200 dramatically, then I think we will see more rich people 119 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,720 everywhere. So companies should look at all 120 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,000 of India as their oyster instead of having some caste system of 121 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:55,280 where they will go. In terms of the sort of rural 122 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,880 matching, urban in terms of consumption, would you, I mean 123 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,720 and I ask this because there is a lot of statements about the 124 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,080 North and South of India being very different. 125 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,760 Would you say that that's the case, that the South is far 126 00:07:08,280 --> 00:07:11,120 above the north in that sense? And what does that then mean? 127 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,880 So OK, let's make the proposition that says that 128 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,720 desires are similar, exposure levels are similar, we watch the 129 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:21,000 same things, want the same things. 130 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,920 To the extent that what I want in a high rise apartment may not 131 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:28,320 be what you want in a small cottage in a village, but by and 132 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,960 large we really want we're at the same level of desire. 133 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,480 What's separating us is the income levels. 134 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,680 Some of us make far more money in the rich. 135 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,120 In fact, even the recent government data released has 136 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:43,120 shown that the top 5% of urban India and the bottom 10% of 137 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,080 rural India are exceptionally high income earners and 138 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,280 exceptionally low income earners or expenditure as it tracks. 139 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,960 So everybody else in the middle is sort of you. 140 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,680 You'll find the same levels of expenditure everywhere. 141 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,240 So if you take income as the only differentiator, it is a 142 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:06,680 fact that southern states have higher incomes per capita as 143 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,040 compared to a state like UP. So I think it's what's happening 144 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,000 in India actually is that after liberalization, we thought we'd 145 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,560 homogenize and become one nice happy, similar thing. 146 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,120 But actually if you notice, our politics has gone regional, our 147 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,040 language has gone even more regional. 148 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,040 The Internet has also gone more regional. 149 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,200 So we're actually celebrating our differences much, much more 150 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,200 and I think different states are at different levels. 151 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,360 So it just so happens that the larger states which are in the 152 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,600 north are actually poorer states but catching up. 153 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,640 So yes, the South is the most sophisticated group of 154 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,880 consumers. The North is less money and 155 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,800 still growing. The West and the South are 156 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:51,560 supposed to be the good market. The East has much fewer places. 157 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,360 If we open up the Northeast completely, a lot of people are 158 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,080 beginning to tend to the Northeast because the 159 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:00,000 Westernization levels are higher, the aspirations are 160 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,080 higher. So yes, India is completely 161 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,400 fragmented, fragmenting even further or as markets go. 162 00:09:08,560 --> 00:09:11,520 In your book you write about, you know the several successful 163 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,960 begin small businesses that have defied the norms of developed 164 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,600 markets and come up with these products that are affordable and 165 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,160 allowed consumption to take off. I know you've listed multiple of 166 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,040 them, but for you, which are the best case examples of these? 167 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:31,640 So for me what is interesting more than success or failure is 168 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:35,600 who has demonstrated what can be done which makes other people 169 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:36,880 pick it up, who creates the wave. 170 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,560 So for me the Holy Trinity is what I call the three NS Nirma, 171 00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:45,320 Nokia Nano. So Nirma many, many years ago 172 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:52,160 actually showed one what a low cost model can actually be. 173 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,440 And I remember spending a year and a half as a consultant in 174 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,280 Hindustan Lever just studying that model because it was new 175 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,880 and we didn't understand it and it went on to show us what is 176 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,520 appropriate quality and appropriate price that works for 177 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,000 large masses of the Indian market. 178 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:14,560 What I loved about Nokia is that it actually showed us that a low 179 00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:18,560 price model is not clunky. Low in fashion, Sasta, Sundar, 180 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:21,920 Tikau as compared to a high price model where you get the 181 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:23,880 goodies. She gave us the goodies on the 182 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,760 low price model, they gave you a camera, they gave you a sleek 183 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:31,000 looking instrument. And after that I remember even 184 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:36,320 doing a study on 2 Wheelers and I saw the Nokia effect where 185 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,360 people did not understand why just because you're a low price 186 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,280 2 Wheeler you will end up having a clunky design. 187 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:43,960 I mean design elements shouldn't vary. 188 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,520 And then there was Nano. And while Nano was not a 189 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,280 commercial success, afterwards came the terms frugal 190 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,000 engineering, Gandhian engineering. 191 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,160 So all these I think were terms that actually showed you what 192 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,760 kind of innovation went into making a small car. 193 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,600 So cheaper telecom is definitely NGO. 194 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:05,080 Definitely that led the way is a Made for India solution. 195 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:11,160 UPI, which essentially says that we are agnostic to which 196 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,320 instrument you use, which platform you use. 197 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,080 We're not a closed loop, I think is again Made for India Minute. 198 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,080 You simplify it in the minute, you take away all costs from it. 199 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,600 Of course no one's making money on it at the moment, but I think 200 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:27,560 it's still an example. Share chat where the founder I 201 00:11:27,560 --> 00:11:30,400 was reading somewhere said there are lots of people who don't 202 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,880 feel comfortable doing Facebook and don't feel comfortable doing 203 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,160 those. And we actually teach people 204 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,360 what is tag, what is post, how do you do it and do it in your 205 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,560 regional languages? Or for example the original Made 206 00:11:42,560 --> 00:11:45,920 for India was the Shampoo Sachet and now Uber is the 207 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,440 sachetization of a car and if you're renting dresses and high, 208 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,600 high-priced dresses and so on is the sachetization of the dress. 209 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,880 And I think China has also showed us what Make for India 210 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,520 is, you know those little dears that come the very, very low 211 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,480 priced synthetic sarees that everybody's using. 212 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,560 So that's that's quite a quite a lot. 213 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,080 You also present the I mean, I'm bringing this also because you 214 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,720 talked about the motorcycles, but you know how richer our 215 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,880 rural households buy low cost motorcycles and poorer 216 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:22,720 households buy more expensive motorcycles And you cite that to 217 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,960 show that we need to understand our consumers better. 218 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,960 What for you? Have firms got wrong about this 219 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,320 sort of cheap but utilitarian preference that the Indian 220 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,400 consumer is said to have? I think I was telling the story 221 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,200 of how there is an overlap between 2 Wheelers and cars in 222 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:42,360 the same household, right. So we believe there is a car 223 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,560 owning household and there is a motorcycle owning household. 224 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,640 But all Indian households balance things. 225 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,600 You know, if it's as simple as detergent, then it is that which 226 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,760 you will use for very expensive garments and that which you will 227 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,920 use for cheap stuff, right. So you basically are balancing 228 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,640 things. So when a household balances out 229 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:07,240 a car and a two Wheeler and it essentially says that my status 230 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,760 needs are taken care of by the car when I'm taking the family 231 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,080 out, but when I'm going to office I will take a two 232 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:13,920 Wheeler. Now on the other hand, if you 233 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,640 take someone who is middle to lower income, that person is 234 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,880 essentially saying that I have only one vehicle. 235 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:25,000 I want a vehicle that gives me the maximum possible status 236 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,840 given the budget that I actually have. 237 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,440 And so I remember asking one of them, why are you paying for a 238 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,760 newer model in black? And he said so that I don't have 239 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,840 to change it for another four years and I want to be somewhere 240 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:40,200 top of the line. So people are balancing all the 241 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:43,280 time. And it is how consumers think 242 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:44,600 that. I think companies don't think 243 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,040 about often. So for example, we're used to 244 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,320 saying, oh, this segment is growing, that segment is not, 245 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,720 but that segment is actually a product segment. 246 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:55,360 It's not a consumer segment. So I use that to make a case for 247 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,440 saying can we look at who's buying and not just what is 248 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,040 being sold? And you delve into this whole 249 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:06,040 aspect of aspiration, right? That while there is confidence 250 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,440 in what you have, in how much to make of it, each rung is trying 251 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,680 to aspire for a better, better life. 252 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,800 Yeah, I call it the stretch for more rather than settle for 253 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,480 less, which is also a little bit of an answer to previous 254 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,280 question. So you stretch for more. 255 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,960 So if you look at how many people of the lower income 256 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,160 actually take their children out of government schools and spend 257 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,000 all the money and put their children in a private school 258 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:39,040 because they say Bhabhi government school, English Padna 259 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,200 hai, computers Padna hai. So they're willing to stretch 260 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,160 that much more. And then if you look at people 261 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,400 of the higher social class, they want their children to go to an 262 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,400 Ivy League fully paid Harvard MBA which cost the earth. 263 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,440 So we're all stretching similarly in homes. 264 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,640 I mean, I've been reading how after COVID at the higher end 265 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:00,000 with work from home, people are actually moving to better and 266 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,960 better homes. So we're all the time striving 267 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,200 for a + 1 + 1 + 1. So it's a plus one mentality, 268 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,000 which is a good thing if you can afford it. 269 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,880 One of the things you point out about rural and urban India is 270 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,240 the fact that the quality of jobs and income indicate that 271 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,800 there's no evidence that urbanization is boosting indias 272 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,000 consumption growth story. Wouldn't that be a bad sign, 273 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:26,720 given urbanization is seen as the sort of path to India's 274 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:28,480 growth story itself in many ways? 275 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,280 OK, the theory of urbanization is that you move people into 276 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,800 better homes, with better quality of life, with better 277 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:37,760 amenities and better quality of jobs. 278 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,880 Now, in a lot of our cities, even if you look at the previous 279 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:46,120 census, it classified 25% of urban dwellings as slums. 280 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:50,080 Other than the some definitional problems of what is urban and 281 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:54,560 what is rural, which need to be sorted out, our urbanization 282 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,440 like the genuine middle class. It's not like genuinely, 283 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,000 genuinely urban, right? You don't have better 284 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,560 facilities, you don't live better. 285 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:03,840 You don't necessarily have better quality jobs, but you 286 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,840 have higher paying jobs. The security guards that you see 287 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,320 outside, you know, they wear their uniform perch apps and the 288 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,360 heat, but they have absolutely no security, no formality, their 289 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,960 temp workers. So if this is what a lot of 290 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,960 urban India is, then urbanization may be enabling you 291 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,440 to earn more for that unit of effort, but it's not enabling 292 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,080 you to live better and want all the things that living better 293 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,560 actually qualifies you to do. And so that is my point. 294 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,200 Now, I think slowly, slowly, there should be better public 295 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:35,840 goods because right now urban does not mean better public 296 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,080 goods. It means worse, but slowly, 297 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,720 slowly. I hope that by the time our 298 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,480 metros get together, which widens people's footprint 299 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,640 cheaper if we can actually get affordable housing to take off 300 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:50,680 where people can actually live better, if you can get water and 301 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:54,400 toilets to people's houses. And you know, now we're already 302 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,600 beginning to experiment with smart cities. 303 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,920 So by the time the whole pieces come together, maybe by that 304 00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:01,800 time we would in theory, be urban. 305 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,480 We'll move from urban to genuinely urban. 306 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,400 But everything in India happens. Halal. 307 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:07,480 It doesn't happen. Jhatka. 308 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,960 It's a large mass moving with a small acceleration, which is 309 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:22,760 fine, That's us. We're back in conversation with 310 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,720 Rama Bijapurkar about the Indian consumer and economy. 311 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,040 Like Rama explained earlier, the Indian consumer market is 312 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:32,080 misunderstood due to its diversity and the fact that 313 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,840 Indian society doesn't fit many traditional definitions. 314 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,920 We ask Rama about why she feels income levels are so 315 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,800 misunderstood in India and why we really need to create a 316 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,440 genuine middle class. This is the thing that you've 317 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:47,840 devoted a whole chapter to in your book, which is about income 318 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,440 levels this year, given it's an election year, there are a lot 319 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:54,440 of numbers being thrown around about India's income levels. 320 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,920 Could you explain where you put Indians when it comes to this 321 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:03,680 income level? Income really bugs me because I 322 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,760 think we have. In fact, I also have a joke in 323 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,120 the book that nobody understood and I'm sure your generation 324 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:10,800 will absolutely not understand it. 325 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:15,240 But it's about a man who is asked in how old he is and he 326 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,240 says do you want an answer in age or in yen? 327 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:23,240 And so the the interviewer says how can you measure age in yen? 328 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:27,160 And he says I'm actually 65 years old, but I yen to be 25. 329 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,160 And somebody asked me, is that a currency conversion joke? 330 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,880 And I said no, actually yen means it's old English for what 331 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,800 do you desire? So I think we like to believe 332 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,400 that we're richer than we are. So the famous saying amongst 333 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:45,120 income measurement geeks like me is that India is not as rich as 334 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:47,480 we think it is and it's not as poor as we think it is. 335 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:53,000 So if you say that I am the 4th or the 5th largest economy in 336 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,720 the world, on track to becoming the third largest economy in the 337 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,280 world, in the same breath, we don't add that in terms of per 338 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,320 capita income, which is how rich is every single Indian. 339 00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:06,720 We are below the rank of 100. So frankly we are and I keep 340 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,280 saying let's embrace it. We are a large economy of lots 341 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:17,080 and lots of very modest income people number 1234 are actually 342 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,160 large economies of a few people who actually earn a lot and and 343 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,680 and that is really why I'm trying very hard to get people 344 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:29,240 to engage with income. So by my estimations and also 345 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,160 the new government data saying pretty much the same, the 346 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:37,400 richest 10% of India will probably earn about 2,00,000 a 347 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,200 month and the poorest 20% actually earn less than they 348 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:46,280 spend, which is about 1 to 2,00,000 in a month. 349 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:50,360 And everybody in the middle can be 4710 lakhs a month. 350 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:53,000 But you know, 4,00,000, three lakhs 4,00,000 is about the 351 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,880 average of where you'll get 2. So yes, we have a few people who 352 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,920 will make it to the world's richest list. 353 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,920 We also have a lot of people who will make it to below 100 in the 354 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,680 overall ranking. And so to say, let's wait for 355 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,040 India to get richer, I make the point repeatedly that the 356 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,600 customer is ready. Even if you're poor, you have 357 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,600 needs, even if you have modest income. 358 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,480 You want your houses painted, you want your gadgets. 359 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,240 You know, even if you're a poor farmer, you want to sweat your 360 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,800 mind and not your bodies. So we have to make things at the 361 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,360 appropriate price and the appropriate performance rather 362 00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:32,160 than keep waiting for income to go up so we're not as rich as we 363 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,400 would like to believe we are. And that's the core truth. 364 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,520 You also argue for the creation of a genuine middle class, which 365 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,120 you say is still not there to the extent that we need it to 366 00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:47,320 be. Can you explain how you believe 367 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,640 that can happen? And also what happens if we fail 368 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:52,840 to create this sort of genuine middle class? 369 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,160 This is something else that I've been going to war with a lot 370 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:01,120 that we, a lot of pundits describe middle classes between 371 00:21:01,120 --> 00:21:05,480 income X and income Y. But but actually a middle class 372 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,160 is important. That's why sociologists say we 373 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:12,240 should study it, because it drives the economy, primarily 374 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:16,120 because they have surplus income to invest back in their own 375 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:18,480 well-being and their children's well-being and making the next 376 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,000 generation better. They have predictable, stable 377 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,440 income. So it's not like something 378 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,680 happened and I've lost all my income, or I have a four 5% 379 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,120 surplus income and the price of vegetables went up and now 380 00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:31,600 suddenly I've fallen off the ladder. 381 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,520 So a genuine middle class is important because it gives 382 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,880 stability, because it has resilience, because it invests 383 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:43,280 in itself, and because it makes the next generation better than 384 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,600 where the present generation is. And that then powers the 385 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,880 country, powers society and powers the economy. 386 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:50,720 That's the theory of the middle class. 387 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,640 Now there are many views on this. 388 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,240 There are books written on whether this can only happen 389 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,720 through services or through manufacturing. 390 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,800 Essentially, I think Indias Achilles heel is that we have to 391 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:06,520 give enough people predictable and higher skilled jobs for them 392 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,640 to have higher skilled jobs you have to skill them. 393 00:22:09,120 --> 00:22:13,000 The reason we talk about formal jobs being the way to create a 394 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,400 genuine middle class. What is a formal job? 395 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,360 A formal job. And I have a colleague, You are 396 00:22:18,360 --> 00:22:20,480 Henrik Wong, who works a lot on this. 397 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,760 A formal job is not a company with the GST number. 398 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:28,800 The reason we want formal jobs is because a this predictability 399 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,600 B employers will invest in improving you. 400 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,560 Your tools will be better and you will have enough of a 401 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,640 network of people so that you can work together as a team and 402 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,400 start getting more productive. One set of theories is saying 403 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,120 that you have to have manufacturing. 404 00:22:45,360 --> 00:22:48,880 We don't have that much manufacturing, if I understand 405 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:50,920 it right. The new book by Raghuram Rajan, 406 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,040 He talks about how we shouldn't be emulating anybody else, but 407 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,960 we should use services. Right now. 408 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,920 To me, a Swiggy boy is not that kind of creating a middle class, 409 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,560 right? Because it has all the problems 410 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,200 of agricultural labour as well, you know. 411 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,600 It's uncertain. You're an own account worker. 412 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,640 Nobody's investing in even giving you a motorcycle or in 413 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,320 helping you do your job better. And out of Swiggy boys, we will 414 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,600 not see another five Swiggy's coming out. 415 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,960 But what happens if we don't get that? 416 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,920 As in because like you're saying that since our focus and our 417 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:26,280 sort of celebration seems to be the creation of more temporary 418 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,760 jobs, more gig jobs and things, that is informalization of 419 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,160 labour, What happens if we don't do what you're saying then? 420 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,760 If we don't do it, then we have volatility. 421 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,200 We have volatility and uncertainty. 422 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,080 We only hope that by the law of large numbers, if something is 423 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,560 burning in one part of the country and it is doing badly, 424 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:49,920 agriculture does well. But the trouble is you can't 425 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,560 predict it and you can't plan for it. 426 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,520 So then I think we should be willing for volatility. 427 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,720 Ramen just to check. Also then, how much of A worry 428 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,080 is this sort of continuation of this K shaped recovery and 429 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,840 greater inequality that we're seeing, especially since the 430 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,800 pandemic strap? Yes, after COVID. 431 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,520 And I think if we are honest about the reasons why, the 432 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,400 reasons are fairly clear. Everybody who had a skill, who 433 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,120 could work from home and still earn a living did very well. 434 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,680 In fact, we never spent as much money and you know, things were 435 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,040 good. If you are someone who has to go 436 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,840 outdoors, if you're casual labor, which is a shocking lot 437 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,600 of people, or if you're a petty trader or if you're a shopkeeper 438 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,240 and you were not allowed to do that. 439 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,360 So therefore that the K shape is. 440 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,680 You're right that some people have done very well. 441 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,320 Some people have not many companies as going back to our 442 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,480 earlier conversation, that prefer to serve the top end of 443 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,200 the market and not serve people with less money. 444 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,000 I think it's delightful for them. 445 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,840 New is actually doing very well. You don't have to go through the 446 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,240 land rank and file trying to comb for the extra business. 447 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,040 You know the creamilia is getting creamier. 448 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,200 So as long as I target that, I'm getting the cream. 449 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:11,120 A lot of them are then saying I will have this flight to safety. 450 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,920 I will only serve those except that when the market turns, I 451 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,760 think you're gonna miss a huge, big opportunity. 452 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:21,200 The reason from a policy or even a society standpoint, that a key 453 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:27,160 bothers me personally is not so much with the inequality, 454 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,960 because we've always been unequal, and more unequal as 455 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,880 compared to less unequal as long as the lower end continues to 456 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,520 grow. And that's where our modern 457 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,280 welfare state has actually saved us. 458 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,920 The amount of money we've put out on food has actually saved 459 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,800 us. But the tragedy then is that you 460 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,240 are not using the full potential of the country also. 461 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:50,360 The tragedy is that while you are talking about 3.8 tending to 462 00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:54,240 5 trillion economy, you're only using 50% of it and targeting 463 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:55,640 that. And so the rest is not 464 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,600 happening. Actually, I think that it's now 465 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,720 time to stop looking at where we are in world rankings, because 466 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,760 we will always be 123 on everything, but to look at how 467 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,160 far we are from our own potential of our people and how 468 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,280 we can unleash everybody's potential, and to that extent, 469 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,800 the K shape per SE doesn't worry me, but people's flights to the 470 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,680 top end of the K worries me even more. 471 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,320 You also talk about the importance of investment to 472 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,520 boost consumption, and that seems to be something that the 473 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,040 private sector's presently holding back on their multiple 474 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,360 reports which say that the government is spending but 475 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:33,200 private sector is not. How does that change? 476 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,720 What is it that the private sector may be waiting for at 477 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,640 this point? No, I have to be careful here 478 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,240 otherwise I will lose all my friends. 479 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:44,160 But the the I think the private sector. 480 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,680 I have often written and said the Government of India is not 481 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,640 your marketing director. If you're investing beyond 482 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:56,000 consumption and you are saying that oh, if the the GDP is like 483 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,000 the tide, when the tide comes up it has to buoy me up and when it 484 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,480 goes down, I have to sit and wait for the tide to turn. 485 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,760 I think that is really lazy business. 486 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:07,840 For example, how often do you hear the word market share and 487 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,720 all the equity market reports that we hear. 488 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,000 You know, even if the overall market hasn't grown so much for 489 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:14,760 whatever reason, you can grow your market share. 490 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:20,560 So I also think that companies, if you're sitting in the world's 491 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,960 most exciting market with the largest number of people who are 492 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,120 dying to consume consumption is our new God and we've added it 493 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:30,440 to the pantheon, right. And it's morally purified and we 494 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,480 all want to consume. So if you're not able to serve 495 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,920 and the youngest market in the world, so we like these 496 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,920 buzzwords, but we don't want to put faith behind it. 497 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,880 And then we say we'll go somewhere else and earn in 498 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,840 dollars. We've already done that and come 499 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,160 back as well. So right now, I think India Inc 500 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,480 is happy to invest behind the the rich parts of the market, 501 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,080 but is not happy to invest in the entire market. 502 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,080 And multinationals also don't want the entire market. 503 00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,320 So we'll have to wait and see whether that will change. 504 00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:03,440 Otherwise, I am saying that it's not that nobody's serving the 505 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:04,840 core. There are lots of the modest 506 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,840 income. There are lots and lots of small 507 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,400 businesses that are doing quite well. 508 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,720 They're agile, they're nimble, they're small brands. 509 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,920 There are 10 times the number of FMCG small brands and there are 510 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,000 big company brands. So then it's game, set and match 511 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,760 to the small companies and the world divides even further. 512 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:23,160 The title of your book comes from this sort of small 513 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,120 suppliers who manufacture and sell to the regional markets. 514 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,080 You point this out as well, but why don't we have many of them 515 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:31,600 who become national players? Why? 516 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,520 Why do they stay restricted to these very niche markets and 517 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,440 regions? Partly it's the battle for 518 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,080 dreams, because you're making, if you're making good money, 519 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,280 where you are for you and your family. 520 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,480 But on the other hand, you know scaling is not so easy, right? 521 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,880 You need access to capital, You need access to skills. 522 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,840 You need access. You need staying power because 523 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,360 there is a period of time when you go into the ditch, when you 524 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,680 start scaling, when you have to start putting out money. 525 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,520 Imagine you're a retailer who has to do, who has to go to 526 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,120 another 10 regions and those regions are completely unknown 527 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:09,560 to you. There is a certain learning 528 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,080 curve. So it's hard. 529 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,840 Now if you have to do this when you're small and then banks will 530 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,840 not lend to you, you don't have patient capital and you don't 531 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,280 know how to do these things, then I think it is daunting. 532 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,120 So right now there is it's very hard for them to actually scale 533 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,360 but we hope overtime that out of if you can improve the flow of 534 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,640 funds to them and if there is a larger pool of skilled people 535 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,920 available that more of them will break out and start becoming 536 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,960 bigger. But on the other hand India has 537 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,720 always been a market where scale is not a big edifice but it's a 538 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,400 million fireflies. So the trucking market people 539 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,040 said, oh, these huge, big humongous trucks are going to 540 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,640 come in and wipe out everybody else. 541 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,320 But actually we saw the aggregation of the one trucker, 542 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,480 2 trucker, 4 trucker hub and scope behind a big trucker. 543 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:03,240 So that is maybe our natural rhythm. 544 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,200 And so maybe we will scale from the coming together of these 545 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,600 people onto platforms and so on. And that is also what I say in 546 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:12,400 our book. So it's not so easy. 547 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,760 And also I think it's the battle for dreams. 548 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,240 I think we want them to go value added, maybe not larger and low 549 00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,360 value. You know, growth is a very 550 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:27,160 disaster on male Funda. You know, growth I think is much 551 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:33,120 more holistic. Today's episode was produced by 552 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,040 Jayaraj Singh and Sahil. Gupta for a daily spotlight. 553 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,240 On people, ideas and. Stories That Matter subscribe to 554 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:41,800 us. We are available on TOI, 555 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,720 Spotify, Apple. Google podcasts and. 556 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,760 All other platforms of your choice for any news tips. 557 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,720 E-mail us at TOI. Podcast at Timesinternet in.