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From India's largest Newsroom. 
I'm Warren Gorge. 

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And this is the times of India 
podcast. 

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The Pomp and pageantry of a 
state visit is quite different 

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from an official visit, which is
what all the others have been 

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for Narendra. 
Modi the last state visit was 

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with Manmohan Singh. 
He was the first state visit for

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a Barack Obama. 
Now, Modi is a very flamboyant 

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person card from being a 
political leader is also show 

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man. 
And I think the Americans 

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Realize that as well. 
So, you know, the show was out 

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there. 
Welcome, mr. 

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Prime minister. 
Welcome back to the White House.

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Across the board, the literally,
A fitting of India fitting of 

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modeling, which is very unique, 
was different from the previous 

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visits and this reflects more 
these personality very much. 

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So, so, that is the difference 
between this visit and the 

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previous ones. 
That's indrani, Bunchy who is 

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the CEO of Think Tank and a 
center. 

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And is a columnist for the times
of India. 

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As she said, Narendra modi's 
first date, widget to the US was

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full of pageantry. 
It also came with a lot of major

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agreements. 
Just a year ahead of national 

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elections in India, the 
agreements in the areas of 

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Defense, technology, and space 
technology. 

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Among others, effectively pull, 
the two Nations even closer 

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together in today's episode, 
indrani. 

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Spoke to us about what this 
visit means for ties. 

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Between the two Nations we 
discuss. 

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How much China is a factor in 
the design, by India, what it 

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means for India, in a multipolar
world and what to read into 

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Barack Obama's comments on the 
state of India's democracy in 

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runny started by explaining how 
the ties between India and the 

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u.s. have been built over 
decades and the significance of 

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the Narendra Modi visit. 
India, u.s. guys have been 

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moving on this one trajectory, 
which is upwards very steadily 

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for the last two decades. 
Modi spoke about the hesitations

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of history in his 2016 Congress 
speech. 

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And that was correct because we 
in the last two and a half 

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decades India and the US, which 
have been on opposite sides of a

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cold war, divide have literally 
will put in building blocks of 

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Very deep relationship and they 
were beginning from scratch. 

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They were also beginning from a 
place of immense distrust of 

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each other. 
It is also work in progress. 

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I mean, see if you see the 
nuclear deal, that was a 

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tremendous, tremendous 
achievement. 

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Remember, we were just literally
dismantling Decades of 

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Technology Denial on India. 
This, you are doing something 

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similar, but in the And sector 
and the same. 

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It's the trust, it's the 
technology denials the way of 

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changing the relationship from a
buyer seller relationship to 

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let's do it together. 
Kind of a relationship. 

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It is bringing America First 
with our together with abundant 

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hair parted how do the two 
coincide? 

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It's these big principles, these
big sort of sentiments that are 

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coming together in these deals. 
This is one, More of those 

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watershed moments. 
So India's Defence dealers have 

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been like sort of focus of this 
visit you know and like you said

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the nuclear cooperation deal was
the big one of Manmohan Singh's 

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visit, you know is there a sign 
or is there a chance? 

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This could go the same way as 
the nuclear deal which is you 

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know, it gets signed but doesn't
really happen on the ground. 

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Okay, so I think we should just 
go back a little bit to the 

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nuclear deal and why what 
happened at Indian God. 

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A waiver from the nuclear 
suppliers group for nuclear 

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powers. 
Please understand that the 

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nuclear deal wasn't only about 
nuclear reactor. 

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It is about technology denial of
which the nuclear element, was 

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the centerpiece. 
Now why did these paltry? 

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They didn't fall through because
they didn't want to. 

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To do it. 
They fell through a lot of it 

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was India's fault because we 
then went ahead and built this 

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new liability regime that made 
it impossible for anybody to be 

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a participant who's going to 
take on that kind of liability. 

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And so that was a self goal that
India imposed on itself to take 

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a deal like the nuclear deal. 
And not be able to capitalize on

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it or something. 
Then India did to itself if this

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doesn't Go through that means 
that a you've already signed the

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mou between HL + GE. 
What is left is the US Congress 

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clearing the restrictions or 
lifting the restrictions on the 

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arms export authorization act. 
And on the itar regulations, 

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these are the two that the US 
Congress has to do. 

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If this doesn't become reality, 
it will be on the The u.s. not 

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on India, but I don't see that 
happening to be honest because 

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it's a big deal for the u.s. 
look at what it means. 

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India is the largest Defence 
importer in the world, given the

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size of the economy. 
Given our threat perceptions 

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given the fact that we have been
dependent on the Russians for 

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over 50%. 
It's a win-win in turn explains 

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how the jet engine deal could 
result in India, significantly 

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improving, its fighter jet 
Fleet. 

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So the distance for Indian 
fighter, aircraft, what are we 

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going to use the GE for one 
force? 

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For? 
We're going to use them to power

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the they just Mark to fighter 
aircraft. 

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Remember, GE 404 engines have 
already been boost in the pages 

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mark one that they just Um 
system is already attuned to a 

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GE engine. 
The difference with this is GE 

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will be manufacturing this in 
India and that's a big deal 

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because, you know, gent engine 
technology, jet engine 

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manufacturing, our crown jewels 
and there are just four 

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countries in the world that does
this. 

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And if this goes through and as 
if you look at the mou, you will

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find that. 
This is not only for the pages. 

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Smart 2X Craft. 
It is also for the aircraft that

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the that is being built, which 
is called the Amika and if you 

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do that, you are literally your 
entire Workhorse, fighter, 

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aircraft feet, something like 
75% of yours will be us. 

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Power, India has been signing 
multiple agreements with the us 

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over the years, to allow the 
Defense Forces to work, better 

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with each other indrani, 
explain. 

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Ends. 
How a new development, only 

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indicates the growing trust 
between the two Defense Forces. 

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We will be now posting a liaison
officer in three commands of the

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American defense system. 
That's a big deal. 

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That's actually very important 
matter of trust. 

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These are some things that 
Indians are gold has asked for 

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and that's that's an important 
piece of confidence building. 

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In terms of the defense industry
itself, what does it mean to be 

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closer to the us now compared to
Russia? 

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Because this also means 
fundamentally a shift away from 

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Russia, which like you said is 
Dina because term supplier. 

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So what it means also is the 
growth of a private sector 

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defense industry in India. 
I think, in the last few years, 

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the Indian government has been 
encouraging Indian defense 

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manufacturers Indian Defence 
suppliers to manufacture more. 

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I think there is a whole slew of
products now that I'm no longer 

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allowed to be important because 
there are Indian manufacturers 

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who. 
So this this way they are 

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incentivizing Indian 
manufacturers. 

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This way This deal will allow 
more Indian manufacturing more 

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Indian, RND more, Innovation 
defense, Innovation, different 

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startups to be working together 
which American companies. 

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We must remember that the u.s. 
defense industry is completely 

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in the private sector. 
Unlike what it used to be in the

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Indian seconds and definitely 
unlike the Russians, because the

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Russian India relationship is a 
very state-to-state 

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relationship. 
The Wait, that's good. 

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The difference that you will 
find in the in the in the 

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industrial base. 
I think Baba kalyani, I love her

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thoughts. 
We also will be doing some of 

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the work with the general 
atomics for the predator drones.

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So I think those you'll see 
these deals these agreements 

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between companies slowly coming 
out. 

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More than one commentators 
pointed out, that sort of 

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India's getting this sort of 
preferred partner status because

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of China. 
And we seen as a sort of 

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counterbalance to China what 
does India's growing proximity 

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to the US? 
Especially after this visit mean

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for both India's ties with China
and how u.s. itself approaches 

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China. 
Look, we have been on this one. 

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We've been on this trajectory 
with the u.s. even when India's 

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child dies, a China work, better
much better. 

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That has not had not changed. 
After Galvan, I would say that 

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our ties with China. 
Are Almost irreparable. 

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Even if China dies killings. 
Takes its troops back. 

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And we resume normal 
conversation, the ties will not 

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go back to what they were. 
Because India is very clear. 

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China, is its biggest strategic 
challenge that challenge has 

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very different dimensions for 
India and for America because we

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are next door. 
So, yes, China is a definite 

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Factor but China is not the only
thing a large part of this is 

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also about the transformation of
India. 

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From State a to State B. 
Here. 

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And this is again, when work in 
progress by successive 

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governments, it's not just the 
last few couple of years, the 

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building blocks for a defense 
deal of this variety. 

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You know, I would say started 
with a 2005 defense agreement 

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that pranab Mukherjee, then sign
it started even further back 

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when the nuclear tests happened 
in 1988, with 99, The kargil war

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broke out and vajpayee and 
Clinton set up that first 

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conversation which basically 
started that confidence-building

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measures between India and the 
u.s. 

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So this has been work in 
progress, these things don't 

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happen in a hurry, they take a 
long long time. 

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In your column for the times of 
India. 

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Something you wrote was that? 
India? 

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Shouldn't take its ties for us 
for granted because of China. 

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What did you mean exactly? 
The need been through two. 

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I two relations of America. 
Using expediency and doing a 

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kind of a G2. 
Thing with child first in 98, 

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when Bill Clinton went to China 
in June and basically said, you 

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know, these Indians are crazy. 
They bring nuclear test you and 

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I we will have to be the 
monitors of this place. 

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Ten Years Later, Barack Obama, 
goes to China and 2009 says, 

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more or less. 
You know, was flirting with the 

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idea of G to myself. 
Is G2 may not happen. 

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Given the competition between us
and China, but Indians have an 

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innate. 
On the strength because u.s. is 

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a superpower China, as a 
superpower. 

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If tomorrow suddenly China 
decided, you know, what I 

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believe you? 
You I subscribe to your 

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worldview. 
I will do what you say. 

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We will be just a noisy 
democracy. so, You always have 

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to keep that in mind. 
And we should not take that for 

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granted, which basically means 
that India needs to work, much 

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faster to seal the deals. 
That you announced the dings but

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you have to seal those days. 
You have to put them on the 

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ground so we should not take 
this current geopolitical state 

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for granted. 
That's what I meant. 

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A lot of India's sort of stand 
in the current days have been 

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need. 
A lot of like basically about 

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buying oil from Russia while 
getting jet engines from the US.

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What is being termed as a 
transactional worldview with, we

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do what's best for us in a 
multipolar world where, you 

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know, there are various sort of 
groupings and then he risks that

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come with this sort of stand. 
There are always risks 

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negotiating this world for a 
power, like, India is never 

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whiskey you basically try and 
make the best decision with the 

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information that you have at 
that time, hindsight is always 

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20/20. 
But look at, you know, last 

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year, this time we were taking 
brick bats across the world for 

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buying Russian eventual. 
Launch condemned in Russia. 

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So this week, I read a piece in 
the Nikkei, which said that, 

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India did the world a favor by 
buying Russian oil. 

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And in fact, it said India saved
the west by buying Russian oil 

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by taking the poison pill of 
buying Russian oil and taking on

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global criticism. 
I mean, this is one year. 

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So everything is fickle, we took
that decision and yes, people, 

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it was transaction. 
Yes, it was based on Indian 

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interest, but that is actually 
the essence of statecraft there 

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are times when you will have to 
look out for your own interests.

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And that's what this government 
did. 

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You had one point four billion 
people who have a two thousand 

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dollar per capita GDP, if I am 
getting Russian oil for cheap 

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and I'm not buying it, that I 
need a bullet in my head. 

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What did you do? 
You control the inflation? 

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You looked after your people, 
economic growth remains steady, 

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It's not great, but it's Eddie. 
You know, many Western 

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Publications and even former 
President, Barack Obama have 

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kind of reached these points 
about the kinds of deals. 

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The u.s. is striking with India.
When there is a worry over the 

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state of India's democracy, in 
the meeting itself, you had both

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President Biden and Prime 
Minister. 

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Modi kind of affirming that that
really wasn't an issue that the 

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whole world. 
In our success, both of us and 

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maintaining our democracies 
makes us appealing partners and 

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enables us to expand democratic 
institutions across around the 

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world. 
But going down the road does the

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state of India's democracy 
really matter for these times. 

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They will hold this as a stick 
over your head forever. 

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And especially when Narendra 
Modi is the prime minister, 

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there is no getting away from 
that this government's Optics 

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are also not great. 
Both the government and its 

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adherence, really have to find 
the best way of countering this,

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because this is what will 
change. 

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So, they use Barack Obama to 
deliver that message mean by 

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didn't didn't say, but his 
former boss tips. 

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And it will set exactly the time
that they wanted it to be said 

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it was the timing was selected. 
Everything was, you know, it 

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was, it went to script but 
you're saying that it doesn't 

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have this sort of larger 
allocation for now, they will 

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continue to keep us on edge 
table. 

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Continue to keep this government
on the defensive. 

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And honestly, this government 
really needs to craft a better 

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00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,400
message for the west, but that's
not going to happen. 

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Open. 
So you just have to live with 

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this. 
This is going to stay. 

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Today's episode was produced by 
Jay Raj Singh soon, I moratti 

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00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:18,000
analogous thing for a daily 
Spotlight on, people ideas and 

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00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,200
stories that matter, subscribe 
to us. 

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00:18:20,500 --> 00:18:25,000
We are available on T. 
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00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:27,000
and all other platforms of your 
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For any new steps email us at 
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