From India's largest Newsroom. I'm Warren Gorge.
And this is the times of India podcast.
The Pomp and pageantry of a state visit is quite different
from an official visit, which is what all the others have been
for Narendra. Modi the last state visit was
with Manmohan Singh. He was the first state visit for
a Barack Obama. Now, Modi is a very flamboyant
person card from being a political leader is also show
man. And I think the Americans
Realize that as well. So, you know, the show was out
there. Welcome, mr.
Prime minister. Welcome back to the White House.
Across the board, the literally, A fitting of India fitting of
modeling, which is very unique, was different from the previous
visits and this reflects more these personality very much.
So, so, that is the difference between this visit and the
previous ones. That's indrani, Bunchy who is
the CEO of Think Tank and a center.
And is a columnist for the times of India.
As she said, Narendra modi's first date, widget to the US was
full of pageantry. It also came with a lot of major
agreements. Just a year ahead of national
elections in India, the agreements in the areas of
Defense, technology, and space technology.
Among others, effectively pull, the two Nations even closer
together in today's episode, indrani.
Spoke to us about what this visit means for ties.
Between the two Nations we discuss.
How much China is a factor in the design, by India, what it
means for India, in a multipolar world and what to read into
Barack Obama's comments on the state of India's democracy in
runny started by explaining how the ties between India and the
u.s. have been built over decades and the significance of
the Narendra Modi visit. India, u.s. guys have been
moving on this one trajectory, which is upwards very steadily
for the last two decades. Modi spoke about the hesitations
of history in his 2016 Congress speech.
And that was correct because we in the last two and a half
decades India and the US, which have been on opposite sides of a
cold war, divide have literally will put in building blocks of
Very deep relationship and they were beginning from scratch.
They were also beginning from a place of immense distrust of
each other. It is also work in progress.
I mean, see if you see the nuclear deal, that was a
tremendous, tremendous achievement.
Remember, we were just literally dismantling Decades of
Technology Denial on India. This, you are doing something
similar, but in the And sector and the same.
It's the trust, it's the technology denials the way of
changing the relationship from a buyer seller relationship to
let's do it together. Kind of a relationship.
It is bringing America First with our together with abundant
hair parted how do the two coincide?
It's these big principles, these big sort of sentiments that are
coming together in these deals. This is one, More of those
watershed moments. So India's Defence dealers have
been like sort of focus of this visit you know and like you said
the nuclear cooperation deal was the big one of Manmohan Singh's
visit, you know is there a sign or is there a chance?
This could go the same way as the nuclear deal which is you
know, it gets signed but doesn't really happen on the ground.
Okay, so I think we should just go back a little bit to the
nuclear deal and why what happened at Indian God.
A waiver from the nuclear suppliers group for nuclear
powers. Please understand that the
nuclear deal wasn't only about nuclear reactor.
It is about technology denial of which the nuclear element, was
the centerpiece. Now why did these paltry?
They didn't fall through because they didn't want to.
To do it. They fell through a lot of it
was India's fault because we then went ahead and built this
new liability regime that made it impossible for anybody to be
a participant who's going to take on that kind of liability.
And so that was a self goal that India imposed on itself to take
a deal like the nuclear deal. And not be able to capitalize on
it or something. Then India did to itself if this
doesn't Go through that means that a you've already signed the
mou between HL + GE. What is left is the US Congress
clearing the restrictions or lifting the restrictions on the
arms export authorization act. And on the itar regulations,
these are the two that the US Congress has to do.
If this doesn't become reality, it will be on the The u.s. not
on India, but I don't see that happening to be honest because
it's a big deal for the u.s. look at what it means.
India is the largest Defence importer in the world, given the
size of the economy. Given our threat perceptions
given the fact that we have been dependent on the Russians for
over 50%. It's a win-win in turn explains
how the jet engine deal could result in India, significantly
improving, its fighter jet Fleet.
So the distance for Indian fighter, aircraft, what are we
going to use the GE for one force?
For? We're going to use them to power
the they just Mark to fighter aircraft.
Remember, GE 404 engines have already been boost in the pages
mark one that they just Um system is already attuned to a
GE engine. The difference with this is GE
will be manufacturing this in India and that's a big deal
because, you know, gent engine technology, jet engine
manufacturing, our crown jewels and there are just four
countries in the world that does this.
And if this goes through and as if you look at the mou, you will
find that. This is not only for the pages.
Smart 2X Craft. It is also for the aircraft that
the that is being built, which is called the Amika and if you
do that, you are literally your entire Workhorse, fighter,
aircraft feet, something like 75% of yours will be us.
Power, India has been signing multiple agreements with the us
over the years, to allow the Defense Forces to work, better
with each other indrani, explain.
Ends. How a new development, only
indicates the growing trust between the two Defense Forces.
We will be now posting a liaison officer in three commands of the
American defense system. That's a big deal.
That's actually very important matter of trust.
These are some things that Indians are gold has asked for
and that's that's an important piece of confidence building.
In terms of the defense industry itself, what does it mean to be
closer to the us now compared to Russia?
Because this also means fundamentally a shift away from
Russia, which like you said is Dina because term supplier.
So what it means also is the growth of a private sector
defense industry in India. I think, in the last few years,
the Indian government has been encouraging Indian defense
manufacturers Indian Defence suppliers to manufacture more.
I think there is a whole slew of products now that I'm no longer
allowed to be important because there are Indian manufacturers
who. So this this way they are
incentivizing Indian manufacturers.
This way This deal will allow more Indian manufacturing more
Indian, RND more, Innovation defense, Innovation, different
startups to be working together which American companies.
We must remember that the u.s. defense industry is completely
in the private sector. Unlike what it used to be in the
Indian seconds and definitely unlike the Russians, because the
Russian India relationship is a very state-to-state
relationship. The Wait, that's good.
The difference that you will find in the in the in the
industrial base. I think Baba kalyani, I love her
thoughts. We also will be doing some of
the work with the general atomics for the predator drones.
So I think those you'll see these deals these agreements
between companies slowly coming out.
More than one commentators pointed out, that sort of
India's getting this sort of preferred partner status because
of China. And we seen as a sort of
counterbalance to China what does India's growing proximity
to the US? Especially after this visit mean
for both India's ties with China and how u.s. itself approaches
China. Look, we have been on this one.
We've been on this trajectory with the u.s. even when India's
child dies, a China work, better much better.
That has not had not changed. After Galvan, I would say that
our ties with China. Are Almost irreparable.
Even if China dies killings. Takes its troops back.
And we resume normal conversation, the ties will not
go back to what they were. Because India is very clear.
China, is its biggest strategic challenge that challenge has
very different dimensions for India and for America because we
are next door. So, yes, China is a definite
Factor but China is not the only thing a large part of this is
also about the transformation of India.
From State a to State B. Here.
And this is again, when work in progress by successive
governments, it's not just the last few couple of years, the
building blocks for a defense deal of this variety.
You know, I would say started with a 2005 defense agreement
that pranab Mukherjee, then sign it started even further back
when the nuclear tests happened in 1988, with 99, The kargil war
broke out and vajpayee and Clinton set up that first
conversation which basically started that confidence-building
measures between India and the u.s.
So this has been work in progress, these things don't
happen in a hurry, they take a long long time.
In your column for the times of India.
Something you wrote was that? India?
Shouldn't take its ties for us for granted because of China.
What did you mean exactly? The need been through two.
I two relations of America. Using expediency and doing a
kind of a G2. Thing with child first in 98,
when Bill Clinton went to China in June and basically said, you
know, these Indians are crazy. They bring nuclear test you and
I we will have to be the monitors of this place.
Ten Years Later, Barack Obama, goes to China and 2009 says,
more or less. You know, was flirting with the
idea of G to myself. Is G2 may not happen.
Given the competition between us and China, but Indians have an
innate. On the strength because u.s. is
a superpower China, as a superpower.
If tomorrow suddenly China decided, you know, what I
believe you? You I subscribe to your
worldview. I will do what you say.
We will be just a noisy democracy. so, You always have
to keep that in mind. And we should not take that for
granted, which basically means that India needs to work, much
faster to seal the deals. That you announced the dings but
you have to seal those days. You have to put them on the
ground so we should not take this current geopolitical state
for granted. That's what I meant.
A lot of India's sort of stand in the current days have been
need. A lot of like basically about
buying oil from Russia while getting jet engines from the US.
What is being termed as a transactional worldview with, we
do what's best for us in a multipolar world where, you
know, there are various sort of groupings and then he risks that
come with this sort of stand. There are always risks
negotiating this world for a power, like, India is never
whiskey you basically try and make the best decision with the
information that you have at that time, hindsight is always
20/20. But look at, you know, last
year, this time we were taking brick bats across the world for
buying Russian eventual. Launch condemned in Russia.
So this week, I read a piece in the Nikkei, which said that,
India did the world a favor by buying Russian oil.
And in fact, it said India saved the west by buying Russian oil
by taking the poison pill of buying Russian oil and taking on
global criticism. I mean, this is one year.
So everything is fickle, we took that decision and yes, people,
it was transaction. Yes, it was based on Indian
interest, but that is actually the essence of statecraft there
are times when you will have to look out for your own interests.
And that's what this government did.
You had one point four billion people who have a two thousand
dollar per capita GDP, if I am getting Russian oil for cheap
and I'm not buying it, that I need a bullet in my head.
What did you do? You control the inflation?
You looked after your people, economic growth remains steady,
It's not great, but it's Eddie. You know, many Western
Publications and even former President, Barack Obama have
kind of reached these points about the kinds of deals.
The u.s. is striking with India. When there is a worry over the
state of India's democracy, in the meeting itself, you had both
President Biden and Prime Minister.
Modi kind of affirming that that really wasn't an issue that the
whole world. In our success, both of us and
maintaining our democracies makes us appealing partners and
enables us to expand democratic institutions across around the
world. But going down the road does the
state of India's democracy really matter for these times.
They will hold this as a stick over your head forever.
And especially when Narendra Modi is the prime minister,
there is no getting away from that this government's Optics
are also not great. Both the government and its
adherence, really have to find the best way of countering this,
because this is what will change.
So, they use Barack Obama to deliver that message mean by
didn't didn't say, but his former boss tips.
And it will set exactly the time that they wanted it to be said
it was the timing was selected. Everything was, you know, it
was, it went to script but you're saying that it doesn't
have this sort of larger allocation for now, they will
continue to keep us on edge table.
Continue to keep this government on the defensive.
And honestly, this government really needs to craft a better
message for the west, but that's not going to happen.
Open. So you just have to live with
this. This is going to stay.
Today's episode was produced by Jay Raj Singh soon, I moratti
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