1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,080 From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:19,560 Times of India podcast. In response to vegetarian 3 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,480 students claiming that they were uncomfortable sharing eating 4 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:25,920 space with non vegetarian batch mates, IIT Bombay came up with a 5 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:29,200 simple solution the prestigious National Institute which has 6 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,400 students from across States and communities. 7 00:00:31,780 --> 00:00:35,420 Created separate eating desks that could be occupied only by 8 00:00:35,420 --> 00:00:38,380 vegetarian students. There's no record of this having 9 00:00:38,380 --> 00:00:41,180 been done before. The latest decision didn't go 10 00:00:41,180 --> 00:00:44,220 down well with many students, some of whom staged a silent 11 00:00:44,220 --> 00:00:46,980 protest against this. And from last so many days it 12 00:00:47,020 --> 00:00:49,260 has been noticed that the students who was eating non 13 00:00:49,260 --> 00:00:53,420 vegetarian food was purposely eating the non vegetarian food 14 00:00:53,420 --> 00:00:57,460 on the reserved seat which is there for the for the vegetarian 15 00:00:57,460 --> 00:00:59,580 student. The institute responded by 16 00:00:59,580 --> 00:01:03,190 finding one of the students. 100000 rupees for intentionally 17 00:01:03,190 --> 00:01:05,910 sitting at the table reserved for vegetarians to eat his non 18 00:01:05,910 --> 00:01:08,270 vegetarian meal. A committee that investigated 19 00:01:08,270 --> 00:01:11,630 the matter claimed that some students were forcibly trying to 20 00:01:11,630 --> 00:01:13,230 spoil the atmosphere at the institute. 21 00:01:13,990 --> 00:01:16,950 The decision to find the student attracted a lot of outrage. 22 00:01:17,110 --> 00:01:20,310 It prompted some of the teachers at the institute to speak up and 23 00:01:20,310 --> 00:01:23,750 protest against the fine and the decision to reserve tables for 24 00:01:23,750 --> 00:01:26,630 vegetarians. Doctor Suryakant Vagmore is a 25 00:01:26,630 --> 00:01:28,350 sociologist teaching at the Institute. 26 00:01:28,620 --> 00:01:31,060 And was one of those who publicly voiced his opposition 27 00:01:31,220 --> 00:01:33,900 to the grounds over which tables were reserved for vegetarian 28 00:01:33,900 --> 00:01:36,180 students. In today's episode, he's in 29 00:01:36,180 --> 00:01:39,140 conversation with my colleague Bhavika Jain about the push by 30 00:01:39,140 --> 00:01:41,580 vegetarians to have their own separate spaces. 31 00:01:41,780 --> 00:01:44,340 He talks about why vegetarians are pushing back for separate 32 00:01:44,340 --> 00:01:47,700 spaces and why the link between caste and vegetarianism should 33 00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:50,740 never be missed. He also talks about the politics 34 00:01:50,740 --> 00:01:54,020 of vegetarianism. Sudham Murthy and Rahul Gandhi 35 00:01:54,020 --> 00:01:55,860 cooking mutton with Lalu Prasad Yadav. 36 00:01:56,380 --> 00:01:58,700 Given this, push for vegetarianism comes at a time 37 00:01:58,700 --> 00:02:01,660 when carrying or eating the wrong kind of meat can get you 38 00:02:01,660 --> 00:02:04,620 arrested or make you the target of vigilante violence. 39 00:02:05,020 --> 00:02:08,180 Bhavika started by asking Professor Suryakant about how we 40 00:02:08,180 --> 00:02:10,979 have traditionally segregated spaces based on food. 41 00:02:11,340 --> 00:02:14,780 Professor Suryakant says this push for segregation comes at a 42 00:02:14,780 --> 00:02:17,820 time when vegetarianism is actually declining. 43 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:23,080 Segregation may seem as something wrong in contemporary 44 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:28,840 form of urban life or modern life, but our society has been 45 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,280 one way lived peacefully based on segregation. 46 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,880 So segregation has been the order. 47 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:38,880 So unless and until we keep the other, that doesn't constitute 48 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:42,320 us away from us. We cannot associate. 49 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,930 We cannot socialize. So that's the nature of 50 00:02:44,930 --> 00:02:49,370 segregation in rural India. Even now much of the living is 51 00:02:49,370 --> 00:02:53,090 very segregated, right, based on cast largely. 52 00:02:53,610 --> 00:02:58,490 And if this is altered in any way, the ideas of segregation in 53 00:02:58,490 --> 00:03:03,690 terms of living, in terms of space, in terms of hierarchy? 54 00:03:04,340 --> 00:03:08,420 There is also violence because rural spaces are supposed to be 55 00:03:08,980 --> 00:03:12,180 organized in a certain form. A lot is changing of course, and 56 00:03:12,180 --> 00:03:15,700 that is why now we are at the place where we are rethinking 57 00:03:15,700 --> 00:03:19,180 segregation. The ideology of caste definitely 58 00:03:19,180 --> 00:03:23,380 in various ways structures segregation and food is a major 59 00:03:23,380 --> 00:03:26,580 constituent of this mode of organizing society. 60 00:03:26,820 --> 00:03:29,940 Food based segregation, especially in cities, becomes an 61 00:03:29,940 --> 00:03:33,580 obsession of sorts, and this also varies based on cities. 62 00:03:34,090 --> 00:03:38,770 For instance, Mumbai doesn't have so much of the sentiment of 63 00:03:39,170 --> 00:03:41,370 extreme segregation. There's a lot of mixed leaving. 64 00:03:41,690 --> 00:03:45,370 What we see is increasingly there is exclusion of Muslims 65 00:03:45,410 --> 00:03:48,850 from housing societies and all, but we see a lot of mixing 66 00:03:48,850 --> 00:03:51,450 amongst the Hindus. It's not made a matter of caste. 67 00:03:51,450 --> 00:03:54,410 You know, if you have resources, you know your class could help 68 00:03:54,410 --> 00:03:58,850 you get housing in mixed places. Also unless you're Muslim. 69 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,120 The incident at IIT Bombay came around the same time another 70 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,200 incident took place in Mumbai. A Maharashtrian woman was told 71 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,040 she couldn't rent a suburban office space because the 72 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:11,840 building had a policy of not renting to Maharashtrians. 73 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:28,800 One of the implied things was that she was denied the office 74 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:30,800 space because many Maharashtrians are non 75 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,200 vegetarian and the residents of the colony who were mostly 76 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:37,080 Gujarati were not. Bhavika asked Professor 77 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:40,360 Suryakant about segregation in cities like Mumbai, which 78 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:44,160 claimed to be more cosmopolitan. We were two incidences of 79 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,200 segregation based on food preference. 80 00:04:46,860 --> 00:04:50,580 In the last few days that weve seen, worryingly, a city like 81 00:04:50,580 --> 00:04:54,500 Mumbai which is so-called cosmopolitan in nature, we are 82 00:04:54,500 --> 00:04:57,700 seeing this issue being raised again and again. 83 00:04:57,740 --> 00:05:01,100 Can a city like Mumbai really afford to be such a conservative 84 00:05:01,100 --> 00:05:04,580 side? I think city in itself means a 85 00:05:04,580 --> 00:05:07,500 cosmopolitan space. City is supposed to be 86 00:05:07,500 --> 00:05:11,060 inclusive, equal, right. The space of freedom, right. 87 00:05:11,220 --> 00:05:15,900 We draw the idea of citizens from city, so no city can afford 88 00:05:15,900 --> 00:05:19,380 to be exclusive. Mumbai is a city which is very 89 00:05:19,380 --> 00:05:21,700 mixed. It's history, the way it's 90 00:05:21,700 --> 00:05:24,660 organized and structured. It's genuinely diverse. 91 00:05:25,050 --> 00:05:28,850 As opposed to say, a city like Ahmedabad, Ahmedabad is like a 92 00:05:28,850 --> 00:05:33,290 big city with a lot of Gujarati ethics that governs that city. 93 00:05:33,410 --> 00:05:37,210 Even the history of capital there organizes the city in such 94 00:05:37,210 --> 00:05:42,490 a way that all these factors of caste, food, religion are deeply 95 00:05:42,490 --> 00:05:44,010 into play, which are not in Mumbai. 96 00:05:44,810 --> 00:05:48,210 So what we see is there are pockets like Ahmedabad in 97 00:05:48,210 --> 00:05:50,130 Mumbai. So these two incidents that 98 00:05:50,130 --> 00:05:53,410 you're talking about, they also reflect in what I say the 99 00:05:53,490 --> 00:05:55,670 anxiety of. Vegetarians. 100 00:05:55,910 --> 00:05:59,270 So because vegetarianism in India you like it or not, it's 101 00:05:59,270 --> 00:06:03,350 linked to the idea of hierarchy and this hierarchy of food. 102 00:06:03,430 --> 00:06:06,990 It's very graded. So if you are eating non beef 103 00:06:06,990 --> 00:06:11,830 meats, you are not untouchable, but if you're eating beef, you 104 00:06:11,830 --> 00:06:14,510 become an untouchable. We have managed to bring in 105 00:06:14,510 --> 00:06:18,430 several forms of hierarchies there, while vegetarians over a 106 00:06:18,430 --> 00:06:22,790 period of time have learned in this urban spaces to live with. 107 00:06:23,350 --> 00:06:26,710 Meat eaters, for instance, even in Ahmedabad, you see that a lot 108 00:06:26,710 --> 00:06:31,670 of McDonald's have come in where they see they serve both chicken 109 00:06:31,670 --> 00:06:34,870 and vegetarian food. So in one sense people are 110 00:06:34,870 --> 00:06:37,430 learning to live with each other. 111 00:06:37,910 --> 00:06:42,750 What does the story does not tell us is that vegetarianism in 112 00:06:42,750 --> 00:06:46,710 India is a forced sentiment. You know, we force our children 113 00:06:46,710 --> 00:06:49,070 to be vegetarian. There are multiple forms. 114 00:06:49,110 --> 00:06:52,110 What you see is. That amongst the cars that are 115 00:06:52,110 --> 00:06:57,270 impure just to mimic the pure casts and kind of gain upward 116 00:06:57,270 --> 00:06:59,390 mobility, they tend to become vegetarians. 117 00:06:59,390 --> 00:07:01,950 That's another form. But there is also this idea of 118 00:07:01,950 --> 00:07:04,550 being born as a vegetarian in various forms. 119 00:07:04,550 --> 00:07:08,190 It's also a violent process because then you have to ensure 120 00:07:08,190 --> 00:07:11,350 that your child is not exposed to someone who eats meat to 121 00:07:11,350 --> 00:07:13,710 senses to smells which may be attractive. 122 00:07:14,050 --> 00:07:19,610 And not that this is majority of vegetarians, it it is definitely 123 00:07:19,810 --> 00:07:21,810 a minority. But this minority tends to 124 00:07:21,810 --> 00:07:24,930 govern the ideas of how to be a vegetarian, right? 125 00:07:25,090 --> 00:07:27,170 This is this and it's a double game. 126 00:07:27,370 --> 00:07:31,210 They could play the game of their vegetarianism being very 127 00:07:31,210 --> 00:07:34,090 good for environment. They could use it also in terms 128 00:07:34,090 --> 00:07:37,090 of Hindu nationalist sentiments and they could also use it as 129 00:07:37,090 --> 00:07:40,800 victims or we are a minority. But I think it's not such a 130 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:42,840 simple thing. So it's very important, 131 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:46,640 especially from, you know, looking at a city as a space of 132 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:51,000 future which is inclusive and equal, to look at the ideas of 133 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:54,240 vegetarian, which are militant, which are about absolute 134 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:59,120 closure, which we need to talk about and which should not in 135 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,560 any form be encouraged because it's largely linked to 136 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:07,500 sentiments of caste punity. So another side of this entire 137 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:10,820 debate is that people who support food segregation often 138 00:08:10,820 --> 00:08:14,900 argue for the freedom of choice and the right to practice one's 139 00:08:14,900 --> 00:08:17,940 faith. So they definitely have freedom 140 00:08:17,940 --> 00:08:19,900 of choice, right? No one is stopping them from 141 00:08:19,940 --> 00:08:22,860 eating. But to say that you don't use 142 00:08:22,860 --> 00:08:27,180 the same utensil to cook vegetarian food, I mean, these 143 00:08:27,180 --> 00:08:29,860 days people have dishwashers. I mean, these are washed through 144 00:08:30,300 --> 00:08:33,740 hot water, hot steam, right? Chemicals. 145 00:08:34,580 --> 00:08:37,419 Now, it won't make sense to say that you don't use the same 146 00:08:37,419 --> 00:08:39,539 dishwasher. So see, this is these are the 147 00:08:39,539 --> 00:08:42,220 elements of caste. Don't sit with me and eat. 148 00:08:42,539 --> 00:08:44,260 We are not organizing an intercaste marriage. 149 00:08:44,260 --> 00:08:46,020 You eat your food, I eat mine, right? 150 00:08:46,620 --> 00:08:51,260 So these are in various sense primordial ideas of caste and 151 00:08:52,060 --> 00:08:56,380 which we need to debate. We should not just 152 00:08:56,380 --> 00:09:00,660 institutionalize these things. Can you speak about anxieties 153 00:09:00,660 --> 00:09:04,950 that you know vegetarians? Have around themselves and which 154 00:09:04,950 --> 00:09:07,590 is why this manifesting the entire segregation. 155 00:09:07,750 --> 00:09:11,190 Do you think it leads to, you know, creation of more ghettos 156 00:09:11,190 --> 00:09:14,870 where there will be limited social, cultural limit, even 157 00:09:14,910 --> 00:09:19,230 economic interactions between people from one part of the city 158 00:09:19,630 --> 00:09:21,950 in another? And how does this go with the 159 00:09:21,950 --> 00:09:26,070 development of the city? Actually it's very interesting 160 00:09:26,070 --> 00:09:27,990 question. So Bombay and Ahmedabad are like 161 00:09:27,990 --> 00:09:32,740 2 contrasting examples. Ahmedabad is a beautiful city 162 00:09:32,740 --> 00:09:37,300 with all its you know, inherent biases, exclusions and people 163 00:09:37,300 --> 00:09:39,700 are living with you know. So vegetarians will not give 164 00:09:39,700 --> 00:09:42,140 housing to non vegetarians. There is a lot of gas based 165 00:09:42,460 --> 00:09:45,300 discrimination. This you will not see in Mumbai. 166 00:09:45,700 --> 00:09:49,700 See India has had these phases generally with modernity and 167 00:09:49,700 --> 00:09:53,380 economic development. What we see in Western countries 168 00:09:53,380 --> 00:09:57,020 or other countries too, that the meat consumption increases 169 00:09:57,140 --> 00:09:58,740 because when you have money, you buy more meat. 170 00:10:00,150 --> 00:10:04,550 In India, modernization was also playing with Sanskritization. 171 00:10:05,150 --> 00:10:09,030 So as the masters that were not pure got money, they also 172 00:10:09,030 --> 00:10:13,310 mimicked these pure castes because that helped them fit in 173 00:10:13,310 --> 00:10:16,310 with with the pure castes by claiming when you did in the 174 00:10:16,350 --> 00:10:17,750 man. What we also see is, you know 175 00:10:17,750 --> 00:10:20,590 beef consumption has got drastically gone down amongst 176 00:10:20,590 --> 00:10:24,390 caste that were used to having with modernization because 177 00:10:24,390 --> 00:10:25,830 stigma attached to beef and so on. 178 00:10:27,630 --> 00:10:31,710 I think now are we. Now we are at a phase where you, 179 00:10:31,790 --> 00:10:35,550 because of a lot of travel and general ideas also moving 180 00:10:35,550 --> 00:10:40,030 around, people are questioning this whole sense of purity 181 00:10:40,030 --> 00:10:46,670 attached to which things. And I'm thinking that in say 182 00:10:47,070 --> 00:10:50,950 next 2-3 decades, meat consumption is going to increase 183 00:10:51,310 --> 00:10:55,030 not only amongst pure cast, but also cast that word to seek 184 00:10:55,030 --> 00:10:59,300 purity becoming. Below vegetarians now this is 185 00:10:59,300 --> 00:11:03,540 going to cause a lot of anxiety amongst the vegetarians who have 186 00:11:03,540 --> 00:11:07,780 had this hegemony power and within this law trajectory. 187 00:11:08,660 --> 00:11:13,580 I think whether we become more divided or not, the city's 188 00:11:13,580 --> 00:11:16,060 become divided or not. There is definitely going to be 189 00:11:16,060 --> 00:11:18,140 a lot of discourse and debate around this. 190 00:11:19,500 --> 00:11:23,140 Because it's not so easy for youngsters to be said, oh, you 191 00:11:23,140 --> 00:11:25,980 know, vegetarianism is bad and vegetarianism is very different 192 00:11:25,980 --> 00:11:29,700 from veganism, right? Because that is like the genuine 193 00:11:29,700 --> 00:11:32,700 form of concern where you don't want pushed milk out of animals, 194 00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:36,180 you don't want to have a lot of cattle just for the sake of your 195 00:11:36,180 --> 00:11:38,060 own good. I think these debates are 196 00:11:38,060 --> 00:11:41,260 already coming in. It's not that you'll be going 197 00:11:41,260 --> 00:11:44,940 backwards, but we are definitely in a phase of thinking more and 198 00:11:44,940 --> 00:11:48,850 that has to be encouraged. For instance, in a city like 199 00:11:48,850 --> 00:11:52,490 Bombay, you have housing societies which come up with a 200 00:11:52,490 --> 00:11:57,010 temple and then of course only a certain people from a certain 201 00:11:57,010 --> 00:12:00,210 community are sort of given space in those housing. 202 00:12:00,610 --> 00:12:04,450 Also, largely this is also linked to real estate prices, 203 00:12:04,450 --> 00:12:06,210 right? The houses in those societies 204 00:12:06,210 --> 00:12:09,010 maybe 4,00,00,000, five crores worth and obviously no other 205 00:12:09,010 --> 00:12:12,010 community may be able to afford that kind of housing. 206 00:12:12,330 --> 00:12:15,330 So how does this sort of play out in economics? 207 00:12:15,790 --> 00:12:18,990 You are pushing out people without saying that they don't 208 00:12:18,990 --> 00:12:22,030 belong there because the prices are only so, so very high. 209 00:12:23,310 --> 00:12:31,710 These are like enclaves people choose right to kind of organize 210 00:12:31,710 --> 00:12:34,430 their communities around. This is also a matter of you can 211 00:12:34,430 --> 00:12:41,230 say choice and when you are from a class or a group with capital 212 00:12:41,630 --> 00:12:44,640 you can do it well. Because if your houses are so 213 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,640 expensive, 3-4 crores, right? And if you organize it in such a 214 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,080 way that only a certain community wants to get in, it 215 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,400 definitely works to segregate right? 216 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:59,040 To kind of reproduce this whole idea of purity and kind of give 217 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:00,720 a sense of protection to these communities. 218 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,200 In a city like Mumbai, the prices will go very high if you 219 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:09,920 really want to have this very close kind of societies and it 220 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,080 will be very expensive. It's not really affordable. 221 00:13:13,060 --> 00:13:16,300 And even if you have your own kind of space, the surroundings 222 00:13:16,300 --> 00:13:19,540 around you would give you those side, the smells, the senses 223 00:13:19,540 --> 00:13:22,140 which you don't want. You may have to engage with 224 00:13:22,140 --> 00:13:24,540 this. And that's the nature of city, 225 00:13:25,420 --> 00:13:28,500 especially Mumbai, you see that. So that's what I say. 226 00:13:28,500 --> 00:13:30,180 You know Mumbai has pockets of Ahmedabad. 227 00:13:30,860 --> 00:13:33,380 When you see this, I live in a place like this. 228 00:13:33,620 --> 00:13:36,500 There's a Jain temple and around this, this idea has worked out 229 00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:40,380 that within the space. You don't sell meat, so all of 230 00:13:40,380 --> 00:13:43,620 us have to go get our meat. You know, black Polythenes and 231 00:13:43,620 --> 00:13:45,100 all that stuff. We work around that. 232 00:13:47,060 --> 00:13:48,500 But there is definitely coexistence. 233 00:13:48,500 --> 00:13:52,740 Also, you know that Gujarati is in the society that Bengalis and 234 00:13:52,740 --> 00:13:55,340 so on. Yes, capital could play a role, 235 00:13:56,460 --> 00:13:59,100 but at least in a city like Mumbai, it's not decisive. 236 00:13:59,340 --> 00:14:02,420 If you have money, have money you can really have your way 237 00:14:03,380 --> 00:14:06,960 around. What does these enclaves sort of 238 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,320 do to the younger generation really? 239 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,520 Does that keep them away from, you know, having a social 240 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:15,400 interaction? What does that do to maybe kids 241 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:19,880 belonging to minority families in a in a society which which 242 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:24,400 eat meat and majority don't? There are more meat eaters than 243 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,280 vegetatives, but that's why this whole rush, you know. 244 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,000 Now to. Have this space kind of 245 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,800 continuously say that I want my space in the train, I want my 246 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:37,360 space in housing societies or want a certain sense of smell, 247 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,120 smell, how it should look and so on. 248 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,640 So there is more anxiety on the part of this militant 249 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:50,120 vegetarians actually. Now, what it means for non 250 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,240 vegetarians If they are a minority, of course they have 251 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,170 to, really. We do their modes of living. 252 00:14:55,290 --> 00:14:58,090 So for instance, you would not cook fish that is smelly. 253 00:14:58,490 --> 00:15:04,130 You would, you know, eat out. But if such freedoms are really 254 00:15:04,130 --> 00:15:06,610 affected, you know, one would also then think of moving to a 255 00:15:06,610 --> 00:15:11,370 place which is more open for the younger generation that cannot 256 00:15:11,650 --> 00:15:15,490 come out with its meat eating. It's a kind of psychological 257 00:15:15,490 --> 00:15:18,290 violence when you're dealing with this kind, when you cannot 258 00:15:18,370 --> 00:15:21,210 be what you are. But it may also lead to 259 00:15:21,210 --> 00:15:22,850 conversation. You know, people may not. 260 00:15:23,210 --> 00:15:26,810 Take this kind of you know, misplaced, unscientific kind of 261 00:15:26,810 --> 00:15:28,770 reasoning as a good way to live, right? 262 00:15:29,370 --> 00:15:34,210 I think the violence of such form of living is worse on the 263 00:15:34,210 --> 00:15:37,530 vegetarian ghettos. See, because what you are 264 00:15:37,530 --> 00:15:40,450 cultivating is you are cultivating a sense of caste 265 00:15:40,450 --> 00:15:43,170 pride. You are cultivating a sense of 266 00:15:44,010 --> 00:15:49,610 false ideology into something that is good for environment. 267 00:15:49,690 --> 00:15:52,010 The basis of it is wrong. And it is. 268 00:15:52,010 --> 00:15:55,450 All of this is linked to our notions of purity and punishing. 269 00:15:55,890 --> 00:15:59,410 We cannot just, you know, say, oh, I'm not eating meat and and 270 00:15:59,410 --> 00:16:01,050 we cannot not look at the violence of it. 271 00:16:01,530 --> 00:16:03,730 And there are so many children who hide from their parents and 272 00:16:03,730 --> 00:16:06,250 eat meat. Parents know this, but they want 273 00:16:06,250 --> 00:16:12,130 to do this whole spectacle of them even now sticking on to it. 274 00:16:12,130 --> 00:16:15,330 We did a study of this Descious Tamrahman Car Association. 275 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,080 So every caste decision has some people who are like this cutter 276 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,000 caste feeling people we interviewed some and if you eat 277 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:28,040 meat you become violent, If you eat meat you are bound to be 278 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,640 sexually transgressive or something of that kind, you're 279 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,560 not going to follow the culture and so on. 280 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,240 Interestingly in this association they also moved on 281 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:41,440 to say you know even if you are a non vegetarian, a meat eating 282 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:43,880 person, but if you are a decious star. 283 00:16:44,330 --> 00:16:46,450 People are welcome to the organization because they are 284 00:16:46,450 --> 00:16:48,930 realizing that people are not coming to these organizations. 285 00:16:48,930 --> 00:16:52,010 So if you're going to be very strict about all those things in 286 00:16:52,010 --> 00:16:53,770 Mumbai, it does not work like that. 287 00:16:53,810 --> 00:16:55,330 Maybe there they can try and socialize. 288 00:16:55,330 --> 00:16:58,370 You try to teach you. So there is always this back and 289 00:16:58,370 --> 00:17:01,050 forth. People are increasingly also 290 00:17:01,130 --> 00:17:04,410 attracted going towards me. So there is this cutter kind of 291 00:17:04,410 --> 00:17:10,339 cast feeling. The Who own the sentiment of 292 00:17:10,339 --> 00:17:12,020 CAST want to protect the CAST right? 293 00:17:12,339 --> 00:17:14,460 Who will pressurize push this ideas right? 294 00:17:14,460 --> 00:17:19,020 So there is this kind of process of exchange between these 295 00:17:19,380 --> 00:17:30,730 moments. We're back in conversation with 296 00:17:30,730 --> 00:17:34,250 Professor Surayakanth about the push and pull behind spaces for 297 00:17:34,250 --> 00:17:36,530 vegetarians. Bhavika asked him about his 298 00:17:36,530 --> 00:17:39,810 tweet in response to the controversy at IIT Bombay over 299 00:17:39,810 --> 00:17:43,010 the tables in the eating halls being reserved for vegetarians. 300 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,240 In your own words, you said that the Bharatiya vegetarianism of 301 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,720 purity and segregation is a social illness. 302 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,840 It needs to be cured and not institutionalized. 303 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:56,400 Can you please elaborate on where this comes from and what 304 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,440 what is essentially are you trying to say? 305 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:03,360 Food cannot be used in in a hierarchical form. 306 00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:06,640 You know to govern distances with others. 307 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,160 You know, to kind of segregate to. 308 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:13,080 To continually reproduce hierarchies. 309 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,160 That's the broad point I was making because, and what I was 310 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:21,440 suggesting is we really need to sit back and distinguish our 311 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,520 vegetarianism, which stems out of cast. 312 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,800 I don't and have a conversation on it. 313 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:29,960 If there are meat eaters who give up meat and become 314 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:34,160 vegetarians, that's a sentiment which is genuine where? 315 00:18:34,930 --> 00:18:38,330 You have thought of giving up meat because its not good for 316 00:18:38,330 --> 00:18:40,570 you, not good for environment and so on. 317 00:18:40,610 --> 00:18:45,810 If you have worked out an idea now, but if youre forced to be a 318 00:18:45,810 --> 00:18:49,930 vegetarian from your birth and then youre also taught to get 319 00:18:49,930 --> 00:18:53,010 this false pride and notions about your vegetarianism in 320 00:18:53,010 --> 00:18:57,050 grade because caste because that gives you intellect on and 321 00:18:57,050 --> 00:18:59,480 several other things. And you choose this in daily 322 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,120 life, you know, also in terms of hierarchies within your house, 323 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:04,920 gender hierarchies, and so on and so forth. 324 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,560 This is something I'm referring to. 325 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,800 It's not merely a social illness, but I think it's not 326 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,920 good for our mental health also. The case of attempting to 327 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:17,600 enforce restrictions over eating spaces in IIT Bombay is 328 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,880 particularly interesting given the stature of the Institute in 329 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,800 the World of Indian education. Professor Suryakant couldn't 330 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,040 comment directly on the issue given his teaching at the 331 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:29,110 institute. However, he did point out that 332 00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:32,270 in most public academic institutions, there is a middle 333 00:19:32,270 --> 00:19:35,870 path that has already been worked out by students and has 334 00:19:35,870 --> 00:19:39,590 been in place for years. If the leadership turns 335 00:19:39,590 --> 00:19:44,550 regressive and is trying to put in place ideas and and norms, 336 00:19:45,030 --> 00:19:47,990 which is about segregation, which is about hierarchy, it's 337 00:19:47,990 --> 00:19:51,510 not good. The younger folks need to need 338 00:19:51,510 --> 00:19:54,230 to experience equality and practice equality. 339 00:19:54,630 --> 00:19:56,190 That's the genuine idea of public. 340 00:19:57,170 --> 00:20:00,170 It should not be around saying that I don't want to see meat, I 341 00:20:00,170 --> 00:20:01,850 don't sit with meat eaters, right? 342 00:20:02,210 --> 00:20:05,010 And so on. See, food is important because 343 00:20:06,610 --> 00:20:10,290 around food there should be solidarity and it should 344 00:20:10,290 --> 00:20:15,210 construct an inclusive nationalism, not an hierarchical 345 00:20:15,570 --> 00:20:19,290 social form. Academic spaces need to be that 346 00:20:19,450 --> 00:20:22,770 space of cosmopolitan values, of scientific temper. 347 00:20:23,350 --> 00:20:26,390 And we see this in South India. We there is no conversation 348 00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:31,110 around of course beef in and pork kind of not part of the 349 00:20:31,110 --> 00:20:35,030 menu, but I think that is being sensitive to the sentiments of 350 00:20:35,030 --> 00:20:37,350 caste, Hindus and Muslims, which is a good practice. 351 00:20:37,670 --> 00:20:39,710 There is a middle part that we have already worked out. 352 00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:43,750 Let us not go backwards. Among those who inadvertently we 353 00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:47,390 did into the debate of food and caste is author Sudha Murthy. 354 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:51,000 In an interview, she spoke of her fears and why she always 355 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,880 carries extra food like poha and chapatis when she travels 356 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:55,840 abroad. My pure vegetarian. 357 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:56,680 Not unique. OK? 358 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:03,480 Not even lesson. Hmm. 359 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,880 I don't eat lesson. Not even lesson. 360 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:14,410 Hmm. She spoke of how one of her 361 00:21:14,410 --> 00:21:17,610 biggest worries was that a spoon in vegetarian food might have 362 00:21:17,610 --> 00:21:20,530 been in non vegetarian food. Bhavika asked Professor 363 00:21:20,530 --> 00:21:23,810 Suriyakan about the statement and how he viewed it. 364 00:21:24,690 --> 00:21:28,250 Sir, recently we were all outraging over a statement that 365 00:21:28,250 --> 00:21:31,730 Sudha Murthy made about, you know, how she manages her 366 00:21:31,730 --> 00:21:33,850 vegetarianism when she travels abroad. 367 00:21:34,090 --> 00:21:37,770 Does what she said really fall in her quote UN quote, private 368 00:21:37,770 --> 00:21:40,130 space? Because then we all have our 369 00:21:40,130 --> 00:21:43,550 food preferences, right? Yeah, it does for Sudha Murthy. 370 00:21:43,710 --> 00:21:45,790 It does for a lot of people like Sudha Murthy. 371 00:21:46,270 --> 00:21:51,670 Because, see, this is what their way of coping with the rice of 372 00:21:51,670 --> 00:21:54,150 meat around them. A Sudha Murthy 100 years ago 373 00:21:54,150 --> 00:21:56,570 would not have this problem because she would be meeting 374 00:21:56,570 --> 00:21:58,890 with her own kind. She would not be traveling much. 375 00:21:59,010 --> 00:22:01,570 Even traveling across 7 seas, you become untouchable, you 376 00:22:01,570 --> 00:22:02,770 know. So you could not have done that 377 00:22:03,170 --> 00:22:06,610 as part of our caste idea. So Sudha Murthy and several 378 00:22:06,610 --> 00:22:09,490 others like Sudha Murthy are coping with, in their terms the 379 00:22:09,490 --> 00:22:12,090 rage of modernity. It's very violent for them. 380 00:22:12,730 --> 00:22:16,890 So she and several others would carry that cutlery, right? 381 00:22:16,970 --> 00:22:20,320 Would not want to see me being served to others, but they also 382 00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:22,040 have to moderate their sentiments. 383 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,120 I think this is also a generation that is withering 384 00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:26,320 away. I don't think the Amurthy's 385 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:31,640 daughter married to the Prime Minister of UK would waste her 386 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,520 energies doing this in United Kingdom. 387 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,360 So I guess you know cosmopolitan values. 388 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:43,400 That way, I hope, overwhelm us instead of this regressive ideas 389 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,360 of Taj pollution and, you know, purity. 390 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,470 Also, what does this say? About us as a society, is this 391 00:22:51,470 --> 00:22:54,710 also a form of intolerance? Because having somebody just 392 00:22:54,710 --> 00:22:56,670 sitting next to you eating their own food? 393 00:22:56,750 --> 00:22:59,110 I mean, you don't need to share that food, but you can at least 394 00:22:59,110 --> 00:23:03,990 let them eat their own food now. Intolerance is an underestimated 395 00:23:04,510 --> 00:23:07,870 term. You know, in a society where sex 396 00:23:07,870 --> 00:23:10,030 issue is bad because of our religious values. 397 00:23:10,030 --> 00:23:13,750 In a society where we are moved from sati to now, we are even 398 00:23:13,750 --> 00:23:16,770 now trying to ban child marriages, right. 399 00:23:16,810 --> 00:23:19,490 In a society where honor killing just two days back there was a 400 00:23:19,490 --> 00:23:24,250 case of a ready father be adding her daughter for you know, being 401 00:23:24,250 --> 00:23:26,770 in love with someone even after marriage, the collective 402 00:23:26,770 --> 00:23:29,650 conscience moves through the spaces of you know, being 403 00:23:29,650 --> 00:23:32,730 progressive and regressive and and we are in that churn even 404 00:23:32,730 --> 00:23:35,690 now. So what we need is definitely a 405 00:23:35,690 --> 00:23:38,650 debate. We need to talk even now. 406 00:23:39,970 --> 00:23:42,170 We are almost a developed country, you know, if you are to 407 00:23:42,210 --> 00:23:45,350 follow the popular narrative, but we run schemes like Beti 408 00:23:45,350 --> 00:23:47,630 Bachao. So that's the paradox, right? 409 00:23:47,750 --> 00:23:52,670 So I think see a tolerance is underestimating the problem, and 410 00:23:53,350 --> 00:23:57,870 a collective zeal to look at most of these problems through 411 00:23:57,870 --> 00:24:02,350 the lens of reason and collective good, something that 412 00:24:03,030 --> 00:24:06,750 we need to think of together, would be productive. 413 00:24:07,950 --> 00:24:12,190 We've spoken about anxieties that possibly vegetarians have 414 00:24:12,190 --> 00:24:14,840 to sort of. Protect their culture or 415 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:20,000 so-called idea of culture. So are these anxieties around 416 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:25,000 non vegetarianism in India a fallout of the dominant 417 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,880 political narrative with BJP coming to power since 2014? 418 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,880 What we also see is there's a conversation within BJP and RSS 419 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,440 also. So what has happened is socially 420 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:43,160 the militant vegetarians have got a kind of assertive take on 421 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,640 these things. So, so you see it on social 422 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:47,600 media, you see it on social life. 423 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,920 In Mumbai, no one would have ever said don't serve meat or 424 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,320 don't it. It doesn't go with the Marathi 425 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,880 selfhood. Meat is very much part and and 426 00:24:57,520 --> 00:24:59,600 even vegetarianism is very much part of the culture. 427 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:03,440 But they don't clash. Now look at for instance, RSS 428 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:09,490 has slowly that kind of almost out of this radical 429 00:25:09,490 --> 00:25:12,650 vegetarianism narrative. So this has been kind of 430 00:25:13,010 --> 00:25:15,410 delegated to independent individuals. 431 00:25:15,410 --> 00:25:18,090 So it is not a collective narrative, if you will get 432 00:25:19,170 --> 00:25:23,530 recent moan about some of the comments, right? 433 00:25:23,570 --> 00:25:26,930 For instance, he said cast is bad made by the priest and we 434 00:25:26,930 --> 00:25:31,290 have to kind of undo it. One recently he said some of our 435 00:25:32,330 --> 00:25:37,910 workers, RSS workers, went to eat at one of the impure cast 436 00:25:37,910 --> 00:25:40,750 homes. And what happened there was they 437 00:25:40,750 --> 00:25:44,350 told them that you know, this school is cooking meat and 438 00:25:44,350 --> 00:25:47,710 you're going to go to hell for next 1516 generations now. 439 00:25:49,030 --> 00:25:52,030 So it seems the workers said, you know, it's OK if that 440 00:25:52,110 --> 00:25:55,070 happens to us because we have discriminated against you a lot. 441 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:57,080 See, now there is some reason working. 442 00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:01,280 You cannot get away with all of falsities and notions that have 443 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,000 no scientific backup. So there is this tension even 444 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:05,800 within BJP, of course. What do you say? 445 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,920 I understand and I agree that the sentiment is voiced more. 446 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:15,040 I'm sure the government also in its layered form encourages it, 447 00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,560 right. And we see so much of passionate 448 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,840 funding to gaushalas. You cannot have a full scale 449 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,950 pure vegetarian assault on non vegetarians. 450 00:26:27,150 --> 00:26:29,390 This whole sentiment of vegetarianism is a very pure 451 00:26:29,390 --> 00:26:32,670 caste sentiment. It's not no something that is 452 00:26:32,670 --> 00:26:35,230 part of the masses. Therefore you see this back end 453 00:26:35,230 --> 00:26:38,190 board even within RSS they don't have an absolute position, 454 00:26:38,750 --> 00:26:40,230 right. Which is going to say that you 455 00:26:40,230 --> 00:26:42,230 know all the RSS workers do not eat meat. 456 00:26:42,990 --> 00:26:44,230 They have to close down Rs there. 457 00:26:45,590 --> 00:26:48,190 Was this recent video with Rahul Gandhi cooking? 458 00:26:48,710 --> 00:27:04,830 Champar and mutton? Is that sort of a messaging 459 00:27:05,350 --> 00:27:09,750 required to have political leaders normalize meat eating? 460 00:27:10,860 --> 00:27:14,100 See Rahul Gandhi is a very astute, you know politician. 461 00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:18,380 I think hes really sat back and looked at the trajectory of the 462 00:27:18,380 --> 00:27:23,020 rise of Hindutva and now hes at a place where he realizes it is 463 00:27:23,020 --> 00:27:27,420 only the subaltern anti caste politics that can serve as a 464 00:27:27,460 --> 00:27:30,900 powerful antidote to Hindu consistently caste senses. 465 00:27:30,900 --> 00:27:33,940 This whole discourse of this is very Bahujan is discourse, this 466 00:27:34,220 --> 00:27:36,700 is Gandhi discourse, this is BSPS discourse right. 467 00:27:38,250 --> 00:27:40,690 It becomes fashionable with Rahul Gandhi which is OK right 468 00:27:40,690 --> 00:27:43,650 So so he's eating meat. He's talking of past senses now 469 00:27:43,650 --> 00:27:46,450 he's almost seems like yesterday he gave this thing, you know is 470 00:27:46,450 --> 00:27:49,130 there any OBC here is there any that this was almost like an 471 00:27:49,130 --> 00:27:51,850 amid right activist speaking which is good see this is the 472 00:27:51,850 --> 00:27:56,210 exchange we need now because our society, the problem is there is 473 00:27:56,490 --> 00:27:59,330 no sympathy for the other and we need more of this. 474 00:27:59,650 --> 00:28:03,890 The spectacle of Rahul Gandhi eating meat, it's also a way of 475 00:28:04,430 --> 00:28:07,270 especially performing for the Obcs, you know, who are so 476 00:28:07,270 --> 00:28:11,310 attracted to this whole vegetarian Hindu party scores 477 00:28:11,350 --> 00:28:14,990 right to saying that, oh, look here, here's the mandal leader 478 00:28:15,550 --> 00:28:18,470 who loves meat. And I, as you know, some Brahman 479 00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:20,750 lineage, also love meat. So there's nothing to be 480 00:28:20,750 --> 00:28:24,790 disgusted about, right? It's also a way of, you know, 481 00:28:24,910 --> 00:28:30,990 democratizing sensory ideas, kind of living with what you see 482 00:28:30,990 --> 00:28:34,080 and not producing disgust towards me. 483 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,960 Today's episode was produced by Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. 484 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,600 For a daily spotlight on people, ideas and stories that matter, 485 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,200 subscribe to us. We are available on TOI, 486 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:55,040 Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts and all other platforms of your 487 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,320 choice. For any news tips, e-mail us at 488 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,080 TOI Podcast at Timesinternet in.