1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:03,480 From Indias largest newsroom, I'm Arun. 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:05,640 George and this is the Times of India. 3 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:19,510 Podcast. So as you can tell from the 4 00:00:19,510 --> 00:00:22,670 title of this episode, this one isn't really connected with the 5 00:00:22,670 --> 00:00:24,200 news. But that's something that 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,320 happens often when we're speaking with author and 7 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,000 mythologist Devdut Patnaik. In today's episode, my colleague 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,200 Jared Singh and I are in conversation with Devdut Patnaik 9 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,440 about why faiths and myths deal with money and business. 10 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,320 So we discuss topics like why do religions that are believed to 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,560 deal with higher topics like life and death also dictate how 12 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,200 people should use their money? Why do some religions caution 13 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,200 against the accumulation of wealth while others have gods 14 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,080 associated with wealth or worship? 15 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,520 And finally, how do we view the massive riches that popular 16 00:00:55,520 --> 00:01:01,200 temples and places of worship? Have gods are believed to be 17 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,879 from a realm which is far removed from ours, where money 18 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:06,920 has no value for us when we meet a God. 19 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,520 But yet why do all religions seem to tell us about how to 20 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,240 handle money? Because shouldn't it not concern 21 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:18,000 a religion or the gods at all? You know, these are very modern 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:23,160 ideas which sort of separate the world of commerce from the world 23 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,040 of spirituality and religion. This is a very maybe 19th 24 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,640 century idea really, where God and divine is something 25 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,880 transcendental. So nothing to do with the body, 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,920 nothing to do with the society. It's something out there in a 27 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:39,920 rarefied space. When we talk of Upanishads, 28 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,880 Atma, Atma and other, but that's really not the origin of 29 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,640 religions. Religion really comes from a 30 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:50,480 very primal instinct. Human beings are animals. 31 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,960 Animals, like any Organism, is looking for food. 32 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,680 Plants and animals, every day, they get hungry, they run out 33 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,040 of, they run after food, they're seeking food. 34 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:05,520 Humans now start paying about food because we have the human 35 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,440 faculty of intelligence, imagination, all these new 36 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:13,440 things which animals don't have. We start imagining that out 37 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,800 there, there is someone who can help us, or magically I can 38 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:21,560 control the ecosystem and get animals to come towards us. 39 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:24,160 In modern language, we don't use the word food. 40 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:28,280 We are sort of removed away from food and we use words like 41 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:35,440 money, wealth, prosperity. We use these clever words, but 42 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,920 it comes down to food and religion is food. 43 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,600 It's foundational. Unfortunately, as I said, it's a 44 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:44,880 very new phenomenon. You know, you have images of 45 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:49,000 Buddha sitting there meditating. Somehow we don't connect it with 46 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,560 food and we sort of somewhere we sort of separated the two 47 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,080 realms. You know, I always hear people 48 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:58,200 think commercial ho. It is in a way it is the 49 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:00,200 opposite of spiritual. Spiritual people are not 50 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:05,480 commercial, and that's not true. All religions are highly closely 51 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:07,680 connected with the commercial world. 52 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,400 So are you saying that we should expand our understanding of 53 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,680 wealth or fortune? That it should include taste or 54 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,280 opulence, a luxury or a privilege. 55 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,480 The Srinathji Parampara which is there in Gujarat is very famous 56 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,360 amongst the Gujarati Vishnov communities and they came up 57 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,560 with the idea of Vallabhacharya and his son Vital Narji. 58 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,640 They came up with the idea of Pushti Marg, which is the path 59 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,600 of Greece. And the whole idea is that all 60 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,200 the wonderful things about life, the affluence, the music, 61 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:47,000 clothes, good food is the gift of the divine and we have to 62 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,200 celebrate it. Life is not something which is 63 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,440 to be. You have to withdraw from it. 64 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,560 So it's a very anti monastic approach to religion. 65 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,400 If you go to Srinarji temple, it's always about what is the 66 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,240 Lord dressed up as today? What is he eating today? 67 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,520 What is the music being offered to him today? 68 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,800 Srinarji is in Rajasthan, Udaipur region popular amongst 69 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:12,040 the mercantile community and in many ways it was kind of an 70 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,520 opposite of the Jain community which was also a competitive 71 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:20,120 rival merchant class and they were more austere while they 72 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,840 were also doing business. Their religion was an austere 73 00:04:22,840 --> 00:04:26,560 religion about restraint. And there is push T market 74 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:30,680 coming around the 17th century saying that, you know, life is 75 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,280 about the wonderful things and we should celebrate prosperity. 76 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,520 So if you see the Vishnu temples will talks about ocean of milk. 77 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:43,160 So Vaikunt is the ocean of milk or Goluk Krishna's Goluk is 78 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,200 where there is milk. So milk is a metaphor for 79 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,320 wealth. And I think these visualizations 80 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,600 of affluence and abundance are very much part of religion. 81 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:59,120 It's just that nobody sort of connects the two. 82 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:03,440 I think this monastic ideal has taken over the world, especially 83 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,080 because most of the religious leaders, they look like these 84 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,680 celibate monks who are austere. But if you look carefully, they 85 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:15,600 travel in private jets in their own wonderful Mercedes. 86 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:17,960 And then of course they'll say that none of it belongs to me. 87 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,000 It is my devotees who are offering it to me in their 88 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,080 kindness, but the fact is you live in the lap of luxury and of 89 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:27,680 course you tell the idea that I'm not attached to it in the 90 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,520 Buddhist monasteries, one of the Chinese archaeologists said. 91 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:33,760 When you do archaeological studies of the Buddhist 92 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:38,080 monasteries, you realize it is filled with gold and silver and 93 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,080 jewelry and rare objects and rare artifacts which are being 94 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,000 given to it by the Buddhist lady. 95 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,160 So here you have the Buddhist monastery of the man who walked 96 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:49,640 away from the world. So you have these images of the 97 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,960 Buddha dressed in very saffron robes and he's given up the 98 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,280 world. But what is happening in that 99 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:58,280 monastery where the monks are living? 100 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,080 We don't connect. The fact that there is 101 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,720 withdrawal from wealth and commerce is also function of the 102 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,080 fact that they live in a world of commerce and they're 103 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,600 negotiating their relationship with wealth and money. 104 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:16,000 And maybe religion is a way of sort of regulating your greed, 105 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:20,080 regulating your needs. So it's not that you give up 106 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:21,960 wealth, but it is how do you manage wealth. 107 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,320 Religions view money very differently, right? 108 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,600 It depends on where you go, but religions often tell you that 109 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,120 you need to look at money as something that just you take but 110 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,240 you pass on. Like I am talking about things 111 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,840 like say Islam, where you say don't earn interest on earnings 112 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,760 or you know you're not supposed to keep more than you need. 113 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,200 Is money just something then that we we should only have as 114 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:49,560 much as we need? Sort of like food where you only 115 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,040 keep as much as you need and then don't take more. 116 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,680 One of the problems we face in society is that wealth is 117 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,720 generated but it is sort of hoarded by one group of people 118 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,280 and the other group sort of is denied that. 119 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,320 So naturally religion comes up with narratives which tries to 120 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,800 regulate the movement of wealth. A classic example is Islam where 121 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,720 Islam is anti usury that is not considered good, equity is 122 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,360 considered better and therefore you see a very direct 123 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:20,480 correlation because the Prophet Muhammad was a merchant and he 124 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,480 obviously did not like money lenders. 125 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,960 He loved partners, business partners who would profit from 126 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,240 his profit. And when he loses money he they 127 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,440 don't expect the money back. So he it's a kind of thing that 128 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:35,760 you know, be a partner, be part of the brotherhood, help me 129 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:40,920 succeed, don't sort of succeed at my cost that even if I lose 130 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,760 money, I have to repay my debt, which is what money lenders 131 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,880 would do. So you have Islam coming in and 132 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,400 therefore the concept of Haram and halal. 133 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,440 So halal being that you enable people to make wealth 134 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,920 participate in their prosperity while Haram being where you make 135 00:07:57,920 --> 00:07:59,600 money from other people's misery. 136 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:03,160 In many ways this was one of the reasons that Islam has a very 137 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:07,080 strong anti Jewish sentiment, because Jewish communities came 138 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,920 up with money lending and money lending was a very powerful 139 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,160 means of generating wealth because the Jewish community was 140 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,040 not allowed to own property, so the only way they could make 141 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,200 money is out of money. And therefore these ideas of 142 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,760 money lending emerged and money lending around the world is not 143 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,840 liked, right. I think religion, one of the 144 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:27,200 roles it played is regulating the commercial ecosystem so that 145 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,960 people don't go overboard. I mean in Jainism for example, 146 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:31,480 what is their religion all about? 147 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,960 Religion is all about this. The Gambara, the person who sort 148 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,799 of gives up all wealth, basically telling you that you 149 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:39,320 know wealth, not the source of happiness. 150 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:42,039 While it's important, it should keep rotating. 151 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,840 So one of the Jain practices which was there is something 152 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,000 that many people forget is that the Jains were told to build 153 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,520 temples, remember document unlettered societies so they 154 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,840 didn't know to write. They would say build temples so 155 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,840 that people know about Jainism and keep the temples going, that 156 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:00,560 the sound of the workmen should be non-stop. 157 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:02,400 Which means you have to earn enough money to pay the 158 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,800 Craftsman. So the temples keep building, it 159 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,240 should never stop. And in a way it is about rolling 160 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,040 the money, right? Because otherwise the artisan 161 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,960 doesn't get employment And to ensure the quality control that 162 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,520 he they didn't just build some rubbish is that they would be 163 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,680 told to give the dust of their carvings from stone and that 164 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:22,680 would be put through a sieve to see what the fine quality of 165 00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:25,040 dust. So you don't just get money from 166 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,120 the businessman easily, he also ensures there's a quality and 167 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,440 therefore the Jain temples, especially the older ones, are 168 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,680 very detailed and fine. So you see this kind of a 169 00:09:32,680 --> 00:09:36,240 rotation of money happening. You have the Muslims talking 170 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,160 about don't go for debt, go for equity. 171 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,280 You have the Jain saying invest in the artist community. 172 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,520 So you suddenly see the wealth distributing to different 173 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:47,720 communities not remaining within. 174 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,400 It's not locked within one community. 175 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,160 So I think religion plays this very powerful role of ensuring 176 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,360 money moves. It's interesting that you bring 177 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,080 up temples. Give that in light of money, 178 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:04,280 because our understanding is that the temples were at one 179 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,280 time places where wealth was kept, right? 180 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,680 And so now when we hear about invaders coming and breaking 181 00:10:11,680 --> 00:10:15,680 down temples, it wasn't so much to say that they were wanting to 182 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:19,520 do so to spread the religion, but in order to attack the 183 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,000 financial hub of a blaze. Can you elaborate on this 184 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,480 history? How do you run a temple right? 185 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,440 What is the source of income for a temple? 186 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,240 Let's say there is a temple that are priests, that are musicians, 187 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,160 that are dancers, that are weavers. 188 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:38,400 You need key for lighting the lamps, you need metal Smiths, 189 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,000 you need carpenters. So there's a whole ecosystem 190 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,760 that keeps the temple running. They all have to be fed, you 191 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:46,640 need resources. Where do you get it from? 192 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,240 The king would give the land, it's called Devabhoga land. 193 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,320 Earlier when in the Vedic period when there were no temples, they 194 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:55,000 would just give it to the Brahmin saying you perform the 195 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,760 rituals. But then that sort of lost 196 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,160 favour around 1500 years ago and the gods said no, no, we won't 197 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,640 give it to the Brahmins, we'll give it to the gods and through 198 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:05,720 them all these people will get fed. 199 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,840 So the temples across India are really very big landlords, Even 200 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,360 the Nalanda University. In the older days, the sustupas 201 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,040 and the viharas were major landlords. 202 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,480 They had lots of land, so the temple had a lot of money. 203 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,360 Now the what happens with all the money, the extra cash 204 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,640 generates a lot of wealth. So there's a lot of gold and 205 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,720 people also start giving gold even today you'll see 206 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,480 Siddhivinayak temple if you go to Shirdi Sai Baba. 207 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,120 When people are successful things have gone well for them. 208 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,320 They'll give a percentage of their profit to the temple. 209 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,640 So the temple starts accumulating a lot of cash and a 210 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,600 lot of gold and metal and that sticks to the form of the the 211 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:45,040 deities gold crown and the gold masks. 212 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:47,280 Then there are these lamps made of gold. 213 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,080 Now that starts accumulating, right. 214 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:51,880 So you have Ratna Bandar, you have a treasury now that's 215 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:53,760 across India. There were these treasuries, and 216 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,560 obviously these were forces of great metal, great wealth, and 217 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,200 the kings would attack them. When the Islamic invasion took 218 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,360 place, this was the wealth they wanted. 219 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,840 But how do you motivate people living far away to come to read 220 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,240 them? You use like even politicians 221 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:09,560 today. If I tell them that there's 222 00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:11,080 money, come let's steal the money. 223 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,600 But that doesn't sound good. That's not great to motivate and 224 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,160 mobilize the people, because nobody wants to be greedy. 225 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:18,720 So what? You'll say that, hey, we have to 226 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:22,240 establish the true faith. We have to destroy paganism, we 227 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,920 have to destroy idolatry. And that's a great PR. 228 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:30,400 So the PR machinery is very clearly faith, religion and all 229 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:31,520 that. And then of course there's 230 00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,160 underlying everybody knows it's about the plunder and the money 231 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,640 to be made. So the two cannot be separated. 232 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,360 So yes, the religion is spreading and we must not take 233 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,840 away the fact that it was a read and they were reading and they 234 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:45,240 were plundering at the same time. 235 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,200 And religion helps. Now what happens later when the 236 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,480 Sufis start to come to India, they start establishing the 237 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,320 Kanika. Now Kanikas are also like big 238 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,920 establishments, people are working, they need land to 239 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:57,640 support. So the land which was meant for 240 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,800 temples was now being transferred to them by the 241 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,920 sultans. So the wealth which was first 242 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:03,880 with the Buddhist monasteries moved to the temples. 243 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,640 From the temples they moved to the Sufi establishments. 244 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:11,360 So you know, religious spaces, it's like giving to God is so 245 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,960 much easier than giving to a brother you hate or a child you 246 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:15,880 fought with. So all this land, it's something 247 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:18,280 that we don't realize that they were being given to these 248 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,800 religious establishment to earn spiritual merit because, you 249 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:27,000 know, I'm supporting the monk. In fact, some people argue that 250 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,400 Buddhism was a prosperity theology. 251 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,640 Wherever the monks would go, they would take with them 252 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,280 technology of agriculture, water harvesting, and they would 253 00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:40,440 introduce wet rice farming and sugar cane and they would take 254 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:42,600 it around the world. These Buddhist monks would go 255 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,040 and establish these farms and they would say that you know 256 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:47,360 what? When you are prosperous, you 257 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,600 have extra money to feed the monk and therefore you support 258 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,360 Dhamma. So your prosperity supports 259 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,120 Dhamma. Now when you are more 260 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,880 prosperous, you will build a bigger stupa, a bigger pagoda, a 261 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,600 bigger vihara. You will feed more monks and 262 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,960 therefore it is a symbiotic relationship. 263 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,400 I help you make money, you help me spread the Dhamma. 264 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,080 And if you think about it, it becomes a kind of a virtue cycle 265 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,840 of prosperity enabled by the Buddhist monks. 266 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,560 So it sounds ironical, but that's exactly what happens with 267 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:21,320 the churches. That's what happens with the 268 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,520 Sufi Kanakas. That's exactly what happens with 269 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,920 the temples, where one temple is built, a grand temple is built, 270 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:29,120 and then there's so much money coming. 271 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,200 You build a baby temple and more temples and then there is a 272 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,120 circle of temples and you have more money. 273 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,040 So the temple becomes bigger and bigger and bigger. 274 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,960 Religion motivates you to give money away. 275 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,240 Greed, which hoard makes you hoard. 276 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,720 Religion is this powerful tool to take it out of your system, 277 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,280 what the giants called a pari graha, you know, letting go of 278 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,760 wealth, letting, allowing wealth to flow out. 279 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:55,440 And I think of course that also leads to corruption. 280 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,280 So therefore the temples and religious institutions which 281 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,160 originally may have begun as a very clever way of taking 282 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:07,320 resources from rich, powerful people to ensure it reaches 283 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,080 hungry, then over time the temples become corrupt. 284 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:14,760 You see this constant conflict between the Matas of South India 285 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,800 is really based on land issues. Who is going to head the 286 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,280 establishment like the Sri Vaishnavas split into different 287 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:25,000 groups because it it's as much ideological as its commercial. 288 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,920 And usually I feel, I mean, this is of course sounds cynical, but 289 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:34,280 the ideological split is really the marketing department of the 290 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,640 operations department, which really wants to control the 291 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,480 land. If that's the case, then why do 292 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:44,480 we have specific say gods for wealth in some religions like 293 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:50,360 you have Lakshmi or Kuber in Hinduism but in say the Bible it 294 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,600 is Mammon who is this sort of devilish creature who is not 295 00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,080 somebody worship for sure. Why does that exist? 296 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,680 When you say the rule of the regional oligarchy is the rule 297 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:02,960 of a small group of people, theocracy is the rule of the 298 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:05,160 priestly class. So the rule of the rich is 299 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:10,680 called plutocracy and Pluto is the God of the land of the dead 300 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,440 Hades. In the Greek world it was 301 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:17,440 basically the land of the dead. When you die, all your wealth is 302 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,440 buried with you, carry the coin with you and he has coin of all 303 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,400 the dead people so he becomes super rich. 304 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:26,640 But in the Christian world, this Pluto Hades character becomes 305 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,640 the devil. Pluto becomes money and wealth 306 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,920 and all the negative things. So even when Disney starts 307 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:39,240 making the film based on Greek mythology, it tries to show 308 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,800 death as the enemy and as an evil thing, which it was not. 309 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,440 It was just death. And Pluto was just the God of 310 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:47,280 death. And he just sort of eventually 311 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,160 he'll come to my realm kind of thing. 312 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,200 At best. He was a very miserable man 313 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,960 because he lived in a land without sunlight and wind. 314 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,040 Remember, the rise of Christianity was a counter to 315 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,000 the hedonism of the Roman Empire. 316 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,760 And really, the Roman Empire was, you know, rich and vulgar 317 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,160 and corrupt, and it ruled the world for 1000 years. 318 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,119 Even the Roman orgy was where you will eat food and then you 319 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,520 vomit and then you eat again. And human beings were purchased 320 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,760 and it was a very vulgar display of wealth. 321 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:23,359 The whole world existed to provide Rome with objects of 322 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,319 pleasure. The older religions, like the 323 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:28,280 Sumerian religions, the Mesopotamian religions, they 324 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,760 believed that gods created humans so that humans will 325 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,880 labour for their pleasure. That's the purpose of human 326 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,960 existence. And the Romans believe that we 327 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,560 are like the gods, we are privileged, we live like the 328 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,360 Olympians and humans exist and our slaves exist for our 329 00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:45,120 pleasure. Now that's the world in which 330 00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:48,320 Christianity comes. It's a counter movement in a way 331 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,240 and it comes up with the idea that blessed are the meek for 332 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:53,600 they shall inherit the earth. So it's an opposite idea. 333 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:59,040 So hedonism, pleasure, wealth. Bunny was seen as dark mammon. 334 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,160 It's the world of the bad people. 335 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,320 And then the church sort of manifests itself and church 336 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,720 really creates ideas, institutions like marriage. 337 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,320 This whole idea of the nuclear family emerges as the church 338 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,360 progresses. Because in the old days land was 339 00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:18,280 owned by the family, you know, the tribes, clans, old land. 340 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,640 But the moment you start creating individualism and 341 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:25,520 nuclear families, lots of single people have access to property 342 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,360 now that can easily go to the church. 343 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,960 The church could inherit individual property, which is 344 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,400 difficult from tribal property. I can't take away tribal 345 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,560 property because 100 people own the property. 346 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,080 But if one man owns the property and when he rises he says I give 347 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,240 it to the church this sort of inner way. 348 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:45,520 Over 1000 years the church became the largest landlord of 349 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:50,680 the world, but it sort of began its movement in a anti rich, 350 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,680 very socialist, very communist language. 351 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,840 But as time passes, which is exactly what happens in 352 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,920 Buddhism, what happens with other spaces, You begin as a 353 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,760 socialist that we want to we serve the poor. 354 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,040 But then over time you yourself become the plutocrat because 355 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:11,440 you're so much money and money corrupts maybe a monk but luxury 356 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,200 material things are very seductive in Hinduism. 357 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:19,760 They would say Lakshmi Ki Bahane A Lakshmi and if you don't know 358 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:24,480 the value of Narayan that is Vishnu and ensure that she comes 359 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,720 to him, she will bring her sister Lakshmi with her and he 360 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:31,080 she will create trouble and all negative energies will come into 361 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,280 your house and brothers will fight. 362 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,200 Gluttony will happen. Greed, laziness. 363 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:39,680 As I said, if we go back to the basic premise of food, your 364 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:44,320 relationship with food, it's what can sort of make you noble, 365 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,720 but you can also pull you down and make you like plutocracy. 366 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,960 It take you to the land of Plutus, so it can take you up to 367 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,280 Vicunta or it can pull you down to Patal. 368 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,360 So that is the, I think the power of money and religion sort 369 00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:00,600 of draws attention to it, but it also falls prey to itself. 370 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,240 You know, you come up with these noble ideas. 371 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,320 It's very nice to come up with these ideas, but to live by 372 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,040 those ideals. But then how then how do you 373 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,960 look at, say, something like a Lakshmi or a Kuber, right? 374 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:17,320 Because here you're saying you worship well or you worship 375 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:21,120 treasure. Wouldn't that say, sort of run 376 00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:25,160 contrary to so many other faiths which tell you sort of give it 377 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,640 up? One of the things I always tell 378 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:31,120 people that the earliest images of Hindu gods appear on coins. 379 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:36,440 So the earliest images of Krishna, Balaram, Shiva, Lakshmi 380 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,040 are all on coins, Indo Greek coins, Kushan coins, all the 381 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,440 gods around the world, if you see the Roman gods, the Greek 382 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,720 gods, they all appear on coins and coins is where you first 383 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:51,400 find the images of gods. I think somehow it sort of made 384 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:53,520 it auspicious because money is auspicious. 385 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,520 So you at one level you recognize the fact that money is 386 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,880 that which sustains the world and therefore it makes it 387 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,800 auspicious. So what is called Shubham 388 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,160 Mangalam Kalyanam. It's good because you're hungry. 389 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,760 Imagine you're starving and money comes, flows into your 390 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:08,200 life. Things are good. 391 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,800 Your house is clean. You, you have food to eat, your 392 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:13,000 children are feeding. You know. 393 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,440 Sudama ke kharma Krishna Aye or pasadie. 394 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,880 Now that's level one. But then what do you do with the 395 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,520 wealth as the well? Because she'll keep coming in. 396 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,720 And when does what was a beautiful rain in a parched 397 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:26,960 land? When does it become a marshy 398 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,600 land? When does it become a flood? 399 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,960 And I think that regulation is what religion is talking about. 400 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,000 How do you say that? OK, enough, enough, enough 401 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,640 contentment. How do I ensure its 402 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,160 distribution? And that's where the flip side 403 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,040 happens. So it begins with I'm poor and I 404 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:43,960 want to be rich. What happens when you really 405 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,560 become rich? Now you want to become the Kobe. 406 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,200 So if you look at the Buddhist monasteries, old Buddhist, if 407 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,800 you go to Sachi for example, Buddhist monastery surrounded by 408 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,960 these pillars. And on these pillars they have 409 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:59,920 these fat yakshas deformed but bejeweled. 410 00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:02,640 They're all bejeweled. So they are all this Kuberas and 411 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:04,760 they're all bejeweled. And on top of them, this 412 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,800 beautiful woman standing in jewelry. 413 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,240 You know, this Buddhist establishment is funded by these 414 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,560 guys and it's constantly reminding you of what Buddha is 415 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,000 trying to say that you should know when to pull back. 416 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:18,800 When do you say pause? This is enough for me, but not 417 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,200 enough for you. So I'll keep earning money, what 418 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,880 is called karma yoga. I generate money, but I don't 419 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,200 use it for myself, but I use it for the larger society, invest 420 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,040 in the larger world, which is very difficult to do. 421 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,000 It's a very difficult challenge and I think that's the idea 422 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,280 which Kuber and all these gods are meant about, just laughing 423 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,000 at you because they are like, OK, we'll come to your house, 424 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:40,720 but we'll also mess your life up. 425 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,920 We will completely mess with your mind because money is 426 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,440 seductive. It's like, it's like food, 427 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,280 right? Religion is a tool which helps 428 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,160 us regulate it if you use it correctly. 429 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:53,840 But we can always fool ourselves. 430 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,560 I always notice the religious rich people are very, very 431 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,840 religious, but they're religious. 432 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:04,760 Not to saying that I must not let wealth corrupt me, but we 433 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,520 they're religious because they want more wealth. 434 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:08,400 They want more and more and more. 435 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,360 They want to get buried under the gold. 436 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,960 They want to get buried in the ocean of milk rather than 437 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,520 enabling them to distribute the wealth. 438 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,080 And I think that's the challenge. 439 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:19,760 How do you distribute your wealth? 440 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:26,080 You know the Hindu word for God is bhagavan, which really comes 441 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:29,800 from BHAG, which is proportion or apportioning. 442 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,800 And the whole idea is about life is about how do you apportion 443 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,640 your wealth to others, How much do you keep for yourself, how 444 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,280 much do you give to others? And that's the challenge. 445 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,680 Ultimately, you just find it very difficult to give away 446 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,320 wealth even when you have an unending supply of wealth. 447 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,360 The church came up with tithe, the Muslims came up with zakat. 448 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,480 Now the secular world has corporate social responsibility. 449 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,880 Why is it so difficult for super rich of the world to? 450 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,320 They will keep saying, but we're investing so much in the market, 451 00:23:58,320 --> 00:23:59,640 we're investing so much in the market. 452 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,040 But you're not investing for the market, you're not investing for 453 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,680 society, you're investing for yourself and you're fooling 454 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,440 nobody. And I think that's the 455 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,640 conversation that religion wants you to have. 456 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,040 That's why the Jains, who are they worshipping? 457 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,200 The person who owns nothing, who has nothing, and I think it's 458 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:22,200 sort of amazing how people will worship someone who has nothing 459 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,600 while craving to be the masters of everything. 460 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,520 I just want to finally get into this fact that, you know, you've 461 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,720 written about how all our myths deal with kings and rarely with 462 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:37,720 merchants, who are perhaps a more integral part of society. 463 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:41,200 Is it because they are also the funders of religions? 464 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,280 Invariably, and we don't want to make parables about them and 465 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:48,280 offend them. So Hinduism emerged in more 466 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:53,320 agricultural ecosystem while Buddhism and Jainism emerged in 467 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:55,520 the mercantile ecosystem so broadly. 468 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:57,320 That's the reason. So when you read the Ramayana 469 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,960 and Mahabharata, land plays a very important role, not trade 470 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,160 routes. But when you read the Jatakas or 471 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,560 when you read the Jain stories, they talk about ships and 472 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,880 merchants and promissory notes and caravans. 473 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,560 Traditionally, Hinduism was a agricultural religion and it was 474 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,960 all about agriculture. So when you read the Vedas, that 475 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:20,520 Ashramadeiya games about land, when you talk about the later 476 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,560 temple traditions, Devabhoga, they talk about land, land, land 477 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,720 all the time. They do not talk about 478 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,920 mercantile. Even the Harappan civilization 479 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:29,920 was mercantile. I mean it's completely 480 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,840 mercantile. The agriculture was supporting 481 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,800 the mercantile system other than the Srinathji temple which 482 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,760 became famous amongst the Gujarati Vaishnavis and to a 483 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,480 degree to a degree, the Meenakshi Madurai temple was 484 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,800 controlled by the Chettyar communities of South India. 485 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,880 These are rare Hindu temples which are linked to mercantile 486 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,600 communities. But generally a temple in India 487 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,080 is is like Puri temple in Jagannath Puri's. 488 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,600 All the Kerala temples are land owning, huge land owning things. 489 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,920 And it's in the 17th century that you see as the Mughal 490 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,920 empire was waning. As you know the the the 491 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,960 mercantile community of Northwest India, the Marwar, 492 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:15,040 Marwar, Rajputana area, Gujarat area sort of reasserting itself 493 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,000 using a Hindu language. So the Jains were really 494 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,040 controlling it, but there was a Hindu emergence in so and it 495 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,160 takes Vaishnavism becomes the form taken. 496 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,440 So you have Jaipur becoming the center of vaginalism, Vrindavan 497 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,800 becoming a center of vaginalism, all supported by mercantile 498 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,920 community and the Rajput communities. 499 00:26:34,120 --> 00:26:37,800 So you find this kind of a mercantilism connecting with 500 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,520 Hinduism in a very big way from the 16th and 17th century, 501 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,280 especially in North India. They sort of become the funders 502 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:45,400 of the religion. Today. 503 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,760 Of course, you know, you see the political movement, they're 504 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,560 funded by the mercantile lobby. So the agricultural side, I 505 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,960 think they lost control because of agriculture was taken over by 506 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,200 the Mansabadis and the kings and the royalty took over, then the 507 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,840 British took over the lands. So that kind of an agricultural 508 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,880 connection with the religion sort of suffered a big, big blow 509 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,680 in the Mughal period and the British period and then the 510 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,040 mercantiles sort of sort of in came to its rescue. 511 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,280 And does the mercantile community, I mean like in a 512 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,400 general community, sort of sense you have someone like a Lakshmi 513 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,160 or Kuber who get associated with commerce and wealth. 514 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,040 But does the mercantile community then, say, have their 515 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,360 own favored gods? Are they different in any way? 516 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,240 Not really, not really. It's it's sort of, you know, 517 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,720 it's very difficult in Hinduism because the gods take so many 518 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,560 different forms, like for example, Ram becomes the God of 519 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,920 royalty. Ram would typically not to be 520 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,600 seen as a mercantile God, but Vaishnavism in the larger sense 521 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,160 of the word, and especially Krishna, the baby Krishna and 522 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,840 with his pastoral roots is somehow connected to 523 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,280 mercantilism in a very big way. Now there's nothing mercantile 524 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,440 about Krishna at all, but yet he has become a major deity in the 525 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,000 mercantile community. Shaivism, not so much. 526 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,200 Shaivism is more linked to the royalty. 527 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,600 Ram as a person becomes a very royal image. 528 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:10,360 Again in the 17th, 18th century, all the kings of India 529 00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:13,520 identifying themselves around Shiva becomes the ascetic form. 530 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,840 So it sort of doesn't connect unlike say about 1000 years ago 531 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,200 when the Pashu Patas were there and all the kings were 532 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,400 connecting themselves with Shiva and the great Shiva. 533 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,280 So you see these gods changing. Like the Buddhist God Avalo 534 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,400 Kiteshwara becomes a very big God in the mercantile community 535 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,200 in the 8th century AD and he's very popular. 536 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,880 And Avalo Kiteshwara becomes connected with Shiva in the old 537 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,000 in the old form. So merchants did like Shiva at 538 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,320 one time. But I think in the current form 539 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,920 it is Vaishnavism which is more mercantile, relatively more 540 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:47,960 mercantile. As I said, exceptions exist. 541 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,040 Madhuram in action temple has a very strong chettyar which is a 542 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:53,720 mercantile. So the goddess plays a very 543 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,800 important role. If I were to make a broad 544 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,280 sentence, then I'll say Ram becomes more a King's God. 545 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,360 Krishna becomes more a merchant's God. 546 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,880 Shiva is for the ascetic communities. 547 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,080 These are broad rule of thumb things. 548 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,600 Odissa for example doesn't have a very large mercantile 549 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,400 community. Jagannath is not linked to the 550 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,320 mercantile idea. Tirupati Devastanam is linked. 551 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:18,200 Now a lot of merchants love Tirupati because there's a Hundi 552 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,960 system and some say that has a very strong link with Jain 553 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,680 traditions. So this you do find in Tirupati 554 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,040 a very strong mercantile link. There's not much of an 555 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:36,240 agricultural link. Today's episode was produced by 556 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,160 Jayraj Singh and Anuja Singh. For a daily spotlight on people, 557 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,960 ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us. 558 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:48,320 We're available on TOI, Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts, and all 559 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,520 other platforms of your choice. For any news tips, e-mail us at 560 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,320 TOI Podcast at Timesinternet dot in.