1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,080 From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:20,920 Times of India podcast. Occasionally, we'll be reaching 3 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,000 back into our archives to pull out an episode that we think is 4 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,960 still particularly relevant. Today's episode is one of them. 5 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,400 Happy listening. Actor and mental health activist 6 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,760 Siddhartha Mallya has just written a remarkably candid book 7 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,200 about his battle with depression and Obsessive Compulsive 8 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,720 Disorder. The 34 year old also talks about 9 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,800 the toll that his parents divorce and his father's 10 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,600 remarriage took on him as a child and his complex and at 11 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,160 times rather difficult relationship with his father 12 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:57,320 Vijay Mallya, OCD is still not a widely understood affliction. 13 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,080 Siddhartha, who also does an Instagram series on mental 14 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:05,000 health called Consider This and where he first announced that he 15 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,320 was quitting booze, writes how OCD has affected his life. 16 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,240 Here's a brief passage. When I got to India in 2010, my 17 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,680 fears and compulsions were taken to another level. 18 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,040 At home, I believed I had to go to the prayer room and pray 19 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,320 every day. If I didn't, I would be 20 00:01:22,320 --> 00:01:24,280 punished. But this wasn't all. 21 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,320 I believed I had to be 100% clean to enter the prayer room, 22 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,440 so I would literally wash my hands and feet 20 times. 23 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,680 If on the way to the prayer room, my hand touched something 24 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,920 or if my sleeve brushed against something, I would have to wash 25 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:39,840 my hands again and change my shirt. 26 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,600 If I touched the fresh piece of clothing with that same dirty 27 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:47,240 hand, that piece of clothing would now also be dirty and I 28 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:48,880 would have to find a new piece to wear. 29 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:52,640 Things were just as bad once I finally went into the pooja 30 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:54,720 room. I was scared of touching 31 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,280 anything. I was scared of doing anything 32 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,640 because I believed that if I didn't behave perfectly, I would 33 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,960 anger God and be punished. The prayer room experience 34 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:07,800 caused me massive stress. Then my prayers themselves 35 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,160 became problematic. I believed that if I didn't say 36 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,960 thank you for everything that had happened that day. 37 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,680 I would anger God and I would be punished for not being grateful. 38 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,000 I believed that if I didn't say my prayers with grammatical 39 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,520 perfection, I would be disrespecting God and I would be 40 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,680 punished. I believed that if I didn't feel 41 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:30,840 the gratitude enough during my prayers, I wasn't grateful 42 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:34,360 enough and would be punished. This would drive me to say my 43 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,400 prayers again and again to ensure that I had said every 44 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,840 word perfectly. I would go through the entire 45 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,720 day again. To ensure I said thank you for 46 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:48,200 absolutely everything that had happened, I would say things 47 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,080 over and over again just to make sure I was feeling enough 48 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,200 gratitude because of this. A prayer that should have taken 49 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,320 me a few minutes would end up taking me an hour. 50 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,800 It's. Early morning in Los Angeles 51 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,120 when we record this interview and Siddhartha is still wiping 52 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,160 off the sleep from his eyes as he speaks about his gilded yet 53 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,320 difficult life. In the book, for people who 54 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:16,720 haven't read the book, you you talk about your battle with 55 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:23,080 depression. You write very poignantly about 56 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,800 your battle with OCD. You talk about giving up at one 57 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,800 point, and this is of course already public knowledge where 58 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:35,400 you just gave up alcohol. How did you? 59 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,840 Arrive with this. How the book came about was. 60 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,760 On the one year anniversary of when I stopped drinking, and 61 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,120 that would have been, it's been three years now, so that would 62 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,840 have been 2019, I put up a, you know, a very brief Instagram 63 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,720 story saying, hey everyone, it's been one year since I stopped 64 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,040 drinking. I was never an alcoholic, but 65 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,000 whether I had one drink or I had 10 drinks, I'd get crazy anxiety 66 00:03:57,000 --> 00:03:59,200 the next day. So I decided to stop just 67 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,280 sharing this in case it can inspire anyone else. 68 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,720 And I got thousands of messages from people, people who were 69 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,480 like, Oh my God, especially from India saying. 70 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,520 We feel the same way. We can resonate with you if you 71 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:17,160 who obviously because of my background coming from from from 72 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,480 an alcohol producing family if you can stop drinking then why 73 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,079 is there no reason why we can't stop? 74 00:04:22,079 --> 00:04:23,760 Like you know, thank you for encouraging us. 75 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,560 And then I was like, I was like, wow, I mean, I know these sorts 76 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,840 of issues aren't really talked about in India. 77 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,400 And I was kind of blown away by just how much people were able 78 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,560 to resonate with just a very open, simple message and. 79 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:40,880 I thought, well, OK, if I was able to have such an impact by 80 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,240 just being that honest about this, maybe I can continue to 81 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,640 help people by being honest about some of the other things 82 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:48,800 I've gone through. And that's how they consider 83 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,560 this series was born well. And that's where I thought, 84 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:56,120 well, maybe the book was the next kind of natural progression 85 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:01,560 in in in the line. So people who don't know the 86 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,680 side of you, obviously you are Vijay Mallya's son. 87 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,680 You've got a great life. You have, you traveled to the 88 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,960 best places, you're wealthy, you have girlfriends. 89 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:18,120 And you've in the book, you say that when you came to India is 90 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,280 when you were deeply unhappy. And one point you write in the 91 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:25,200 book that you're you immediately became a celebrity, even though 92 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,920 there was nothing to celebrate. And you say I was not at peace 93 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,040 in India. Can you talk a little bit about 94 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,800 that period because the image that came was built around you 95 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,640 was of this, you know, the Prince of good time. 96 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:40,720 I think that was one of the, yeah. 97 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,040 Yeah, I mean, I was. I was definitely miserable. 98 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:49,400 I wasn't aware or in touch with myself enough to really know how 99 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,040 unhappy I was, if that makes sense. 100 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,280 It sounds like a real cliche to say, but most of the time, most 101 00:05:54,280 --> 00:05:56,680 people. Are unaware of what they're 102 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:00,320 actually going through because they aren't in touch with 103 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:01,920 themselves and haven't done the self work. 104 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,480 So on paper it looked like I had everything. 105 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:10,720 I mean I was it was a party's GQ magazine covers this that 106 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:15,120 newspaper La La La La la. And honestly at the time I 107 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,920 probably thought wow this is this is cool, right? 108 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:19,760 I mean you're young whatever. But. 109 00:06:20,840 --> 00:06:24,520 Looking back, I can see that a lot of it was just superficially 110 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,120 filling what was going on underneath, which was, which was 111 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,000 a deep pain. But then again, I I I don't 112 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,480 blame myself because you know, how many people at the age of 22 113 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,040 have that self-awareness anyway? So I don't think I was doing 114 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,080 anything out of the ordinary. Can you talk about what you were 115 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,720 going through? It was a big cultural change for 116 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:47,240 me. Obviously I I'd obviously I 117 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:50,240 wasn't unfamiliar with India. I'd spent so much time there in 118 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,400 holidays as a kid. But I think it's very different 119 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:54,760 you know visiting a place and then actually settling down to 120 00:06:54,760 --> 00:07:00,000 live there. And I I I really guess I felt 121 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,880 like I had a lot of and I and again I I do have to say for 122 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,240 your listeners, I know that what I'm saying. 123 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,240 A lot of it might pertain specifically to my situation, 124 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,280 but of course, that's the only situation I have I can talk 125 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:15,160 about. So maybe the listeners might not 126 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,200 resonate with the situation, but they might resonate with the 127 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,960 actual feelings. But I felt very kind of 128 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:27,040 claustrophobic and very sort of like controlled, you know, like 129 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:29,240 everything I was doing there was a microscope. 130 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,320 Everywhere I went there was someone there, Like there was. 131 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,880 I'd gone from living on my own in the UK to living now in a 132 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:42,200 house that had a lot of domestic help right, which is a prevalent 133 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,960 thing in India anyway. And I felt like I was kind of 134 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:51,160 maybe put in a cage and rebelled against that cage without even 135 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:52,960 realizing what I was rebelling against. 136 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,600 Some might say it was a gilded cage and and they would swap 137 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,080 places with you happily. In fact, you mentioned one of 138 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:02,000 your friends was Would have been very happy to do that. 139 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,920 Look, I think he says that on paper. 140 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,600 I mean, let's see the reality of it, because it's all about what 141 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,600 you what you value. And I think a lot of the time 142 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,680 though, we can have an idea of what something is for the way 143 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,120 that it's portrayed until you have it. 144 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,520 And then it's like, oh, wow. Like, you know, like I'm not 145 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,040 making this comparison to me, but I say it, But I'm going to 146 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,320 say is that you see it with like, you see a lot of like 147 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:28,720 musicians, a lot of singing. I think. 148 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,080 I feel like this is more prevalent with. 149 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,880 Young singers that it is with, with actors and all. 150 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,320 But you see it like out in the West, right where where a young 151 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:40,960 singer will be now that now that she's blown up and she's got her 152 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,280 number one hits and she's got 50 million followers and 153 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:46,200 everything, everything, everything. 154 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:50,040 And they say in their interviews they're like growing up, all we 155 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,760 wanted was stardom, and now that we have it. 156 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:57,640 All we want is just to do the music and we don't want any of 157 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,320 the other stuff to come with it. So I think everything is because 158 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,040 you have an idea, don't you? You're like, wow, big celebrity, 159 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,960 big star being this, being money, this, that cars. 160 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,840 Again. The concept of it on paper 161 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,000 sounds amazing, and it's not bad. 162 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,080 Of course it's not, you know, material conflicts. 163 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:17,320 I think everyone would want that. 164 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,400 But then there are, you've got to take that. 165 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,400 There are also other sides of things that come with all of 166 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,520 this that I don't know if it's. Appreciate it. 167 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,840 And I and I know that I'll probably be a lot of people 168 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:32,000 listening to this being like I just don't see it and and I can 169 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:34,280 understand why people might say that as well. 170 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,160 So you were living in this gilded cage. 171 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,400 You were deeply unhappy. You also. 172 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:44,120 It was also a very clarifying time perhaps for you because it 173 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,640 eventually let you're going to to sort of towards acting. 174 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,680 But also around that time is when you decided to train for 175 00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:57,240 the marathon and and I I remember photos a few from that 176 00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:01,960 time and and you were this slightly chubby person and then 177 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,960 you just decided to it's not easy to just do the marathon and 178 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,600 you did and So what was going on in your head at that time? 179 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:13,840 First of all, the chubbiness was because I was always a very thin 180 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:15,680 kid. And then I went to university at 181 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:18,560 18 and just, you know, went off the rails in terms of, you know, 182 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:21,080 you eat junk, you drink junk, la, la, la. 183 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:24,280 And I was like, yeah, I was young, so I bloomed up. 184 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,320 And then for the marathon, I was like, well, I'm going to do it. 185 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,400 I'm. I'm quite impulsive like that. 186 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:32,360 Like, I like doing things like random things. 187 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,720 Like if you like it, it's kind of like a bucket list without 188 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,400 having a bucket list. And I was like, I'm going to run 189 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,760 a marathon, why not? And I decided to do the. 190 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:45,080 Mumbai One. And everyone was like, even my 191 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,960 dad was like just run the half marathon, just take it easy, run 192 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,400 the half one and when someone tells me I can't do something, 193 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,880 it's like that. Maybe it's the tourist's blood 194 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,120 in me where I'm like, no, I'm going to do the whole thing, 195 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:56,880 like don't tell me what I can and can't do. 196 00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:01,920 And you know, most people, I think train for a good like six 197 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:03,960 months, seven months to run a marathon. 198 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,040 I did it for 9 weeks and I ran it. 199 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,880 And then and then I ran another 1-2 months later in the UK and 200 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,200 then I ran the Mumbai one next year and I did the daily one. 201 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,120 So I actually ran 3 1/2 marathons in the space of 12 202 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:23,280 months because I think for me it was like I'm just going to do 203 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:24,520 it. And then I liked doing it and 204 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,280 then I enjoyed it. But today I'm suffering. 205 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:32,560 My knees are not thanking me for for putting it through that. 206 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,840 The sense that I get is that you know while while you were 207 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:39,000 unhappy. There was a kind of an 208 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:42,240 expectation that you would you would kind of join your dad's 209 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,760 business and there were people who were just waiting for you. 210 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:51,160 Your dad is who caused this larger than life personality and 211 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,640 people expected you perhaps to follow suit and and was this 212 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:57,640 your way at that time even before you came to terms with 213 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,480 the fact that you're not going to join the business to sort of 214 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,880 break away? It's funny you mentioned this. 215 00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,000 You've just got me to think about something which I probably 216 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,120 didn't think of before. It might not have been 217 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,960 necessarily my way to break away, but it was certainly a way 218 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,880 for me to have achieved something on my own that I could 219 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:20,760 take the credit for myself, right. 220 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,560 You don't have no one else kind of take it away or say, oh, you 221 00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:25,680 only ran the marathon because you're so and so sun. 222 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,520 Well-being. So and so Sun isn't going to 223 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,520 help me run 26 months. So I think that was probably 224 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,600 definitely a part of it. As well as that I wanted 225 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:39,320 something of my own. So yes, I mean, I guess it it it 226 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:45,040 might have, yeah, I guess played into the fact of maybe not 227 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,600 breaking away, but definitely of trying to individualize myself 228 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:52,280 and make myself into my own kind of person. 229 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,840 You have of course a very, and you refer to you have a 230 00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:03,840 complicated relationship with your father and and in the book 231 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:07,720 you say at one point that you had some some time ago you had a 232 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,280 a kind of a long heart to heart discussion with him where you 233 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:17,960 kind of told him about what you had felt growing up his his kind 234 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:22,960 of marrying somebody else, you know having children. 235 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,160 And and you say that you realize that while of course it was very 236 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,360 respectful, it was great, but you realize that your your 237 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,680 father sort of at that time, you realize that he lacked empathy 238 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:36,720 to understand what you were going through. 239 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,200 Can you talk a little bit about the kind of about your 240 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:47,000 relationship with your dad? Yeah, I think it's it's one that 241 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,160 you know. First of all, I think when a 242 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:56,400 parent doesn't live with you right full time, the 243 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,840 relationship probably isn't going to have. 244 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,560 And again I'm generalizing here, I this is what I'm assuming that 245 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:07,120 if someone's not there full time, that strong rock 246 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:11,720 foundation that's you know, formed in the early years, the 247 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,040 childhood years isn't there. So I don't know if that's just 248 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:16,960 me off. That's for a lot of people 249 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:18,680 who've had absent, you know, parents. 250 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:24,160 Have been away for various reasons but he was always in and 251 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,080 out if you know what I mean. There was no constant from him 252 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,960 ever and and again I I agree like business was in India, we 253 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:36,320 were in the UK he was travelling for work and everything else so 254 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,440 I think that was that was that was missed out on and. 255 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,440 Of course, you know, he was providing, he was working to 256 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,720 provide for his family. I'm not taking that away from 257 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:45,800 him. But I think that, you know, 258 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,120 there's always a balance, as I said, on both sides. 259 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:51,120 Is that then the drawback to that is that he's not there and 260 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,240 maybe maybe then that that that you know? 261 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,360 But emotionally there for you. Emotionally there or even 262 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,680 physically. So that bond that's formed in 263 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:06,320 these early years, it wasn't there and then? 264 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,640 You know, I think personalities, we, we, we were very different. 265 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,720 When I was in India, I was, as I said, like kind of rebelling 266 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,400 because I was. So I wanted to show my own 267 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,120 person. And then I just think today, 268 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,680 where I am with my life, who I am, what I value, what I think's 269 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:26,640 important, you know, writing books on mental health 270 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:31,160 artistically and where he is and what what his view of the world 271 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:33,520 is and stuff like that. There's nothing wrong with that. 272 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,680 It's just sometimes you don't have. 273 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,280 I don't want to say too much in common, but you don't you know 274 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:45,160 you you're just very different to people. 275 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,720 And I just think that we're, I just think that we're very 276 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,480 different people and I don't think there's anything wrong in 277 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,800 that. I think that I think in fact as 278 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,360 I said in the book, coming to that realization that we are 279 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,880 just very different people actually helps to have a 280 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:02,320 relationship because then you can have it based on respect of 281 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,400 knowing your differences. One point in the book you say 282 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:10,960 and it's it's part of your your OCD that you talk about that you 283 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:19,000 have this great fear of jails and and and and and it would be 284 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,960 given the fact that your your your father is having has been 285 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:26,440 having legal troubles for some time is that something that that 286 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:32,120 adds to your anxiety and and and how him his legal troubles and 287 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:34,720 his moving to England. Have you changed your 288 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:39,600 relationship with him? I don't know if that has changed 289 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,760 the relationship or if it's just the fact that I've gotten older, 290 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,760 he's gotten older, I'm a different person. 291 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,600 That's kind of, if you know what I mean, that. 292 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,760 So whether that situation itself has changed the relationship, 293 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:55,960 I'm not entirely sure. The other thing you bear in mind 294 00:16:55,960 --> 00:17:00,160 is I haven't seen him or my mother or actually anyone in 21 295 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,160 months, so I haven't been back to the UK since before. 296 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,560 Coronavirus. But it's. 297 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,640 I think the hard thing with the legal trouble, right, is that 298 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,000 it's like, and again, this is not about the case per SE, it's 299 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:15,680 about you. I don't think anyone wants to 300 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,319 see anyone going. You're close to suffering, 301 00:17:18,319 --> 00:17:20,599 right? Whatever it is going, whatever 302 00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:23,119 it is they're going through, whether they're right, wrong, 303 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,800 I'll. Well, I don't know. 304 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,760 Whatever it is, you don't want to see someone going through 305 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,440 anguish. And I think that's, that's the 306 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,240 hardest thing to take, right. And I think. 307 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:37,360 I think it kind of frustrates me at times, of course, because 308 00:17:37,360 --> 00:17:40,280 again, as I said in the book, it's it's a public situation, 309 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:41,920 right? It's a public situation. 310 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,080 And when something is public, everyone feels they have the 311 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,720 right for an opinion, which they do. 312 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,720 Everyone does have a right to an opinion, like, you know, but, 313 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:55,360 and I feel that whether you're a punter on the street, on 314 00:17:55,360 --> 00:17:59,160 Instagram or you're a journalist in the Times Group or any 315 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,560 national newspaper. You have a duty I feel, to do 316 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,720 certain levels of due diligence before coming to an opinion, 317 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,880 right? You've got to do your research 318 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,040 and then come to an opinion and then be open to discuss it. 319 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,440 But I think the thing that's frustrated me the most with this 320 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,800 case is that, you know, you just get messages from people online, 321 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,600 which it's not an opinion, it's just an all out attack. 322 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,760 And then when you try and reason with them and try and explain, 323 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,320 it's like no, no no. I'm right. 324 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,640 There's no other way. There's can't be anything else. 325 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,680 This is how it is, and that's kind of what the frustrating 326 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,280 thing is in there. The nature of social media, such 327 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,400 that you've also been for no fault of yours, been also 328 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,840 trolled quite a bit. What what? 329 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,120 What? What does that do to you and and 330 00:18:50,120 --> 00:18:54,640 especially as someone who who has mental health issues. 331 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,960 And that's something that you know a lot of listeners might 332 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:00,680 might want to understand that that what happens when you get 333 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,280 trolled so viciously. Oh, it hurts. 334 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:10,000 Of course it hurts. It's it's very hurtful to read 335 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,960 anything about you, you know, about stuff like that, what 336 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:14,880 people say. But I think if your listeners 337 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:21,160 are listening to take something away from this is be mindful. 338 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,320 When you're commenting on social media, because to the outside, 339 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,200 to you, you might think that you're only commenting on a 340 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,200 photograph, right? But you've got to remember that 341 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,360 there's a real person behind that picture. 342 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,560 If you're commenting on Instagram or whatever, it's not 343 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:37,280 just a photo you're leaving a comment on. 344 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,120 You're actually leaving a comment to a real human being 345 00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:43,520 that has real feelings. So I was talking about this the 346 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,800 other day with someone and you know, like. 347 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:48,320 Bullying is something that's always been a problem at 348 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,720 schools, right? Bullying has existed since time 349 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,760 began and it will continue to exist. 350 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,560 But at least I'm 34, which is not old. 351 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:01,240 But when I was growing up, if you wanted to, if someone was to 352 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,240 be bullied, it had to really be a face to face interaction. 353 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,280 Well now, with all this social media and all of this stuff, how 354 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:13,440 do you protect kids from this? That's where I think the real 355 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,800 problem is, is that, you know what I mean is that how do you 356 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,680 protect a young child from getting taken apart on a public 357 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:26,720 platform by people? It's it's it's something that I 358 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:28,480 think needs to be given a lot more attention to. 359 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,360 How do you deal with it given the fact that you're a 360 00:20:31,360 --> 00:20:35,880 certificate? A a pretty popular person on 361 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,920 social media with lots of followers? 362 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,400 I am. I used to give it back to them. 363 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,240 I used to be like, OK fine, you want to abuse me, I'll give it 364 00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,320 back to you. But now I actually just learn to 365 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,080 deal with things like empathy and love. 366 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,400 Like, honestly, it sounds really strange, but it's like if 367 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,160 someone sends you a message, like whatever, whatever, 368 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,400 whatever, I hope you die and you reply back being like, dear Sir, 369 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:00,600 thank you for your opinion. Much love to you with a heart 370 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:01,320 ebogy. What? 371 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,280 They can't really say anything to that, right? 372 00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,160 And is. That what you do. 373 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,240 Is that what you do? I've had people who've direct 374 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,240 messaged me some horrible stuff and I've written back being like 375 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,560 this. Oh Madam, thank you for your 376 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,680 opinion but do you think this is really the most appropriate way 377 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,240 to think And they've either written back being like I'm so 378 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:22,640 sorry it was a lapse in judgement. 379 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:23,840 I shouldn't have said what I did. 380 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,760 Some people have gone and deleted their accounts off the 381 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:36,200 back of me responding like that. And and yeah, I mean one person, 382 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,320 this is what I'll say to your people out there like this is to 383 00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:42,760 your listeners is that don't go and troll someone. 384 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:47,800 And then also have your place of work in your bio where you work. 385 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,720 Like you don't go and be stupid. Like, you know, one guy, I said 386 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,040 to him, I was like, I was like, you know, he abused me. 387 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,000 And I saw his profile and I was like, oh, I didn't know the 388 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,120 employees of X&X Corporation were trained to speak in such a 389 00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:04,600 way. He deleted his account because I 390 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:09,000 think he was like, oh God, like so I think people don't realize 391 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:13,360 that, you know, just there's no need for it. 392 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,640 I'm going to ask one question about your dad before I move on 393 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:25,480 to talk about OCD. Is it you've You have obviously. 394 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,520 Coming to your own, You're a very different person, your dad. 395 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,280 What has been his response to your journey? 396 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,360 Has he read the book? He's not ready. 397 00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:39,640 Yeah, I believe he got it. He sent me a picture of him 398 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:44,280 holding it yesterday. I don't think he's. 399 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,720 I think he knows I'm on the journey and he leaves. 400 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,120 He kind of like leaves me to do my own thing. 401 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,280 It's not really a journey that I've discussed with him in 402 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,320 depth. These journeys are individual. 403 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,440 I feel like as long as it's working for me then that's 404 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,040 that's what I've really got to focus on. 405 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,240 At the beginning in the book you talk about that you thought that 406 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:07,320 you had depression and you but eventually you got diagnosed by 407 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:13,480 OCD and then you go on to talk about you go on to talk about it 408 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,880 at some length. Can you, can you talk a little 409 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,080 bit about your battle with OCD? Well, I did have the depression 410 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,360 I was then the OCD diagnosis was off the back of it. 411 00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:33,000 But I think my OCD has been one of those things which has 412 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,680 really, really, really caused me a lot of trouble in my life. 413 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,360 And I think for the most time I didn't even know it right. 414 00:23:38,360 --> 00:23:47,760 I didn't know it was OCD. It's something which, and that's 415 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,520 why in that chapter, if you see like I actually dedicate the 416 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,800 beginning of the chapter to really talking about what it is 417 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,520 because I think it's so misunderstood as a mental 418 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:01,080 condition that it's not really given the time of day or the 419 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:08,400 respect that it requires. So for me it was about just 420 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,280 wanting to shine a light on it because it's been very painful 421 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,480 at times. Talk about that, because that's 422 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:19,640 what a lot of people will not understand or know about. 423 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:25,640 It leads you to do things. And sometimes it's really 424 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,200 irrational behavior just because you somehow feel like you have 425 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:36,960 to do it in order for for something not to go wrong or for 426 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,960 something to work out. And as I said in the book, like, 427 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,520 I'm a lot better at this now. But when I was young and I was 428 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,080 in school, I had to do things a certain number of times. 429 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,120 Like I'd open and shut my door like 25 times, except it 430 00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:54,200 wouldn't be 25, it would have to be like 24 because that's an 431 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,680 even number. And yeah, it's just, it's stuff 432 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,080 like that where you just kind of get in this loop and you can go 433 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,760 down this rabbit hole and you just keep going and going and 434 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:07,080 going and going. And on a certain level, you 435 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,320 might know that what you're doing is irrational. 436 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,600 But the OCD is so strong that it makes you feel like, no, I've 437 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,080 got to do this. And how did you sort of get a 438 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,200 handle on it? You know, it's an ongoing 439 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,480 process. It's it's a condition that they 440 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,960 call chronic, which means it can never be cured, but it can be 441 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,680 managed. And again, with the therapist, 442 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:34,640 that's where it really I started working on it actively. 443 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,960 I started working on this workbook that I talk about and 444 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,840 what was great about the workbook is that it actually 445 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:46,120 gave me an insight into how the mechanics of this illness worked 446 00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:50,960 and what I could do and exercises and stuff like that. 447 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,480 So that the workbook was very helpful. 448 00:25:53,480 --> 00:26:03,360 And then, you know, honestly, I started taking some medication 449 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:07,360 again, SSRIs, which I didn't realize. 450 00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:10,040 The SSRIs can treat a number of different things and one of the 451 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:11,920 things that actually treats his OCD as well. 452 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,640 And that's just because, you know, stress and things like 453 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,560 that can trigger it. And obviously the last six 454 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,800 months writing this book and everything has brought up a lot. 455 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:23,920 And I think I felt like at this time, I just need something to 456 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,640 kind of help me with it a little bit. 457 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:31,800 And so that's when I started taking these meds about probably 458 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,360 about a month ago. And I'm actually happy I'm doing 459 00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:37,720 it because I feel like, you know, and this is a thing for 460 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,400 all your listeners out there, is that don't feel afraid to put 461 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,800 your hands up and be like, do you know what, I need more help 462 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,160 than what I already have or that I need help in the 1st place. 463 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,040 And I get it, like medication therapy is not an option for 464 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:55,280 everyone, but and there are so many other things one can do to 465 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,000 look after their own mental well-being. 466 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,880 You know, simple things even like going for a walk, doing 467 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:04,720 yoga, meditating workbooks. And these things are available 468 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,960 to everyone at very little or 0 cost. 469 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,960 So there are always ways to to help yourself. 470 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,920 So I'd say don't don't feel afraid to to look at all 471 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:21,920 different types of options. And you know, if you do take 472 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,640 medication, if you do go to a therapist, it's certainly not 473 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,560 weakness saying that you know what. 474 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,960 At this point I need a kind of extra helping hand. 475 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,400 Today's episode was produced by Jayaraj Singh, Sunay Marathi, 476 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,400 and Anuja Singh. For a daily spotlight on people, 477 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,200 ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us. 478 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:48,000 We're available on Ty Plus, Spotify, Apple, Google Podcasts, 479 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:49,960 and all other platforms of your choice. 480 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,240 For any new steps, e-mail us at toipodcast at timesinternet dot 481 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:55,480 in.