1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,080 From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:19,550 Times of India podcast. Every Independence Day, we not 3 00:00:19,550 --> 00:00:23,070 only celebrate the day, but also try to remember what it means to 4 00:00:23,070 --> 00:00:26,230 be an independent nation. With every passing year, we also 5 00:00:26,230 --> 00:00:29,190 have fewer people who've seen India from the time it became 6 00:00:29,190 --> 00:00:32,759 independent to the present day. There are things that all of us 7 00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:35,760 know as a sort of collective memory, like that video of 8 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,320 crowds gathered in Delhi for the flag hoisting, or that iconic 9 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:43,760 speech. Long years ago, we made A twist 10 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,280 with destiny. And now? 11 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:54,480 The time comes when we shall redeem our pledge, not only or 12 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,800 in full measure, but very substantially. 13 00:01:00,650 --> 00:01:03,250 But there are a lot of things that we don't know of as well. 14 00:01:03,690 --> 00:01:06,570 This Independence Day, my colleagues in Mumbai, Bhavika 15 00:01:06,570 --> 00:01:09,730 Jain and Lata Mishra, decided to speak with three people who've 16 00:01:09,730 --> 00:01:11,770 been around since India became independent. 17 00:01:12,370 --> 00:01:14,890 They spoke with them about their memories of India on the date 18 00:01:14,890 --> 00:01:17,490 gained independence and what that time was like. 19 00:01:18,250 --> 00:01:21,530 They spoke about how they view India at 76, which is younger 20 00:01:21,530 --> 00:01:24,410 than they are presently. They also evaluated how the 21 00:01:24,410 --> 00:01:27,890 country has aged so far and what they hope for it in the coming 22 00:01:27,890 --> 00:01:30,600 years. Julia Ribeiro, who spoke with 23 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,760 Bhavika Jain, is best known as the tough police officer who 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,960 helped end terrorism in Punjab and was the Commissioner of 25 00:01:36,960 --> 00:01:39,560 Police in Mumbai. But on the 15th of August in 26 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,720 1947, he was a teenager in a Mumbai college. 27 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,280 He describes what the day was like for him. 28 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:51,840 I was 18 years old. I was studying in the final year 29 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:57,840 of my graduate of my bachelor's course. 30 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,800 In commerce, I was in the Sydenham College and my younger 31 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,240 brother, he was in the JJ School of Art. 32 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:13,000 So we both went in a bus, you know, BST bus all over S Bombay 33 00:02:13,640 --> 00:02:18,720 and there was a lot of, you know, people, lots of people on 34 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:23,040 the roads and we were very impressed, especially around BT 35 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,360 Station. It was extremely interesting. 36 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,610 People were very. In a joyous mood. 37 00:02:29,490 --> 00:02:36,010 So I remember that Rahul Singh is an author and former editor 38 00:02:36,130 --> 00:02:39,010 who has edited publications like The Reader's Digest and The 39 00:02:39,010 --> 00:02:41,770 Indian Express. He's also the son of author and 40 00:02:41,770 --> 00:02:45,850 editor Khushwan Singh. Born in 1940, Rahul Singh was a 41 00:02:45,850 --> 00:02:48,530 resident of Lahore when it became clear that India was 42 00:02:48,530 --> 00:02:51,970 going to get independence. He tells Bhavika Jain why he 43 00:02:51,970 --> 00:02:55,130 better remembers his experience of the days in the run up to 44 00:02:55,130 --> 00:03:00,950 August 15. In 1947, I was only seven years 45 00:03:00,950 --> 00:03:07,910 old and I think the day that India got it, Independence 46 00:03:10,190 --> 00:03:16,550 Partition was taking place at that time and I think my father 47 00:03:16,550 --> 00:03:25,700 by then had become a diplomat. And had moved to London, so I 48 00:03:25,700 --> 00:03:30,100 cant quite remember that particular day, but I can tell 49 00:03:30,100 --> 00:03:36,380 you a little bit when we moved from Lahore, the whole family 50 00:03:36,380 --> 00:03:43,700 was based in Lahore in 1947, beginning of 1947 and that is 51 00:03:43,700 --> 00:03:50,380 when the riots broke out my grandfather. 52 00:03:51,150 --> 00:03:55,710 Whose name was SAR Shobha Singh? He was. 53 00:03:55,710 --> 00:04:00,150 He had moved to Delhi. By then he had been a 54 00:04:00,150 --> 00:04:05,590 contractor, a builder in what became Pakistan. 55 00:04:05,990 --> 00:04:11,670 But what was undivided India then in a place called How Dali, 56 00:04:11,910 --> 00:04:17,510 which was a village in what is now Pakistan And in 1947 when 57 00:04:17,510 --> 00:04:25,100 the riots broke out? I still vividly remember that we 58 00:04:25,100 --> 00:04:29,500 used to go out on the roof of the building where we were 59 00:04:29,500 --> 00:04:32,260 living. We were living in a in a road 60 00:04:32,260 --> 00:04:36,140 called Lawrence Rd. In Lahore. 61 00:04:36,380 --> 00:04:41,260 I remember we used to see from the roof that there was trouble 62 00:04:41,260 --> 00:04:44,740 there and my father even said there were some people being 63 00:04:44,740 --> 00:04:49,090 killed during those riots. So because there was trouble in 64 00:04:49,090 --> 00:04:55,010 law, my father said we better. He he sent us all off the 65 00:04:55,010 --> 00:04:57,130 family. I had a small sister who was 66 00:04:57,530 --> 00:04:59,530 just two years old and there was my mother. 67 00:05:00,090 --> 00:05:05,850 And so he bundled us up in a car and said go to Delhi and stay 68 00:05:05,850 --> 00:05:11,570 with your grandfather in Delhi. These riots will subside in a 69 00:05:11,570 --> 00:05:13,490 short while and then you can come back again. 70 00:05:13,930 --> 00:05:19,590 Of course, we never came back. Because the riots get worse and 71 00:05:19,590 --> 00:05:23,390 worse and then Partition took place. 72 00:05:24,590 --> 00:05:27,390 Doctor Rustam Sunawala is perhaps Mumbai's oldest 73 00:05:27,390 --> 00:05:31,030 gynecologist and obstetrician and has worked on population 74 00:05:31,030 --> 00:05:33,910 control for a lot of his life. He helped in the creation of 75 00:05:33,910 --> 00:05:36,990 India's abortion law and pushed for the use of contraception 76 00:05:36,990 --> 00:05:40,590 devices for women so that they could control how many children 77 00:05:40,590 --> 00:05:43,070 they had. Given the nature of his work for 78 00:05:43,070 --> 00:05:46,700 over 50 years of his life, it's only a surprise how he described 79 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:49,140 the event of independence to Lata Mishra. 80 00:05:50,460 --> 00:05:52,820 The Independence Day celebration. 81 00:05:54,220 --> 00:05:58,420 Being an obstetrician, I would compare it like a birth of a 82 00:05:58,420 --> 00:06:02,740 baby. When a baby is born, the whole 83 00:06:02,740 --> 00:06:07,020 family rejoices. All visitors come with gifts and 84 00:06:07,020 --> 00:06:11,380 all. So it was like the birth of our 85 00:06:11,380 --> 00:06:15,140 country. And everybody was happy. 86 00:06:15,140 --> 00:06:20,020 Everybody was rejoicing, but as Rahul Singh described it, it was 87 00:06:20,020 --> 00:06:23,700 also a time of violence. Doctor Suna Wala, who was almost 88 00:06:23,700 --> 00:06:27,740 a teen, remembers vividly how he and his parents escaped the mob 89 00:06:27,940 --> 00:06:32,900 thanks to a stroke of luck. My father used to just drive the 90 00:06:32,900 --> 00:06:37,580 car on Sundays. Our driver was off and my mom, 91 00:06:38,100 --> 00:06:42,620 myself, him went for a movie show to paradise. 92 00:06:43,140 --> 00:06:49,460 Cinema at mine, after the film got over on the screen, a notice 93 00:06:49,460 --> 00:06:53,140 came that there are strikes near Shivaji Park. 94 00:06:53,900 --> 00:07:00,580 So our clients or whatever, I want to be careful when you 95 00:07:01,300 --> 00:07:04,180 those who have to go through Shivaji Park. 96 00:07:04,260 --> 00:07:08,220 At that time God Save the King was always played. 97 00:07:08,500 --> 00:07:12,840 We stood up. And then as we got out of the 98 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:18,200 theatre, we saw three other Parsi ladies from the same 99 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:23,000 colony, The other Parsi colony. So naturally we offered them 100 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,920 lift. So my dad was driving, my mother 101 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,720 and me were sitting tightly. It was an old open car, and the 102 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,320 three other ladies were accommodated at the back. 103 00:07:35,350 --> 00:07:37,910 It was all quiet. There were a lot of policemen at 104 00:07:37,910 --> 00:07:42,470 Shirley Park, Not a soul to be seen, completely deserted. 105 00:07:43,270 --> 00:07:46,550 So we were quite happy. We took a left turn to come to 106 00:07:46,630 --> 00:07:51,950 the till the bridge. As you took the left turn, a mob 107 00:07:51,950 --> 00:07:58,150 of maybe hundred 200 people from the side lanes suddenly 108 00:07:58,150 --> 00:08:00,110 appeared. It was really a frightening 109 00:08:00,150 --> 00:08:04,990 shock to see people with sticks and stones in the hand coming. 110 00:08:05,300 --> 00:08:07,340 Sunday out and they stopped the car. 111 00:08:07,740 --> 00:08:12,140 At that time the old cars they were radiated and the cap on 112 00:08:12,140 --> 00:08:14,700 top. So they opened the front cap 113 00:08:14,740 --> 00:08:19,540 which was metallic and started hitting the front glass to break 114 00:08:19,540 --> 00:08:23,460 it and the side glasses were up and we had locked ourselves in. 115 00:08:24,340 --> 00:08:28,420 They knocked on those glasses, but thank God that old German 116 00:08:28,980 --> 00:08:33,880 Opel car could take it. Sunday we could hear somebody 117 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:39,559 who had opened the patrol cap and said machislau machislau and 118 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,200 that would have been disaster because if they had thrown the 119 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:50,040 matches in the patrol tank it would be like a bomb to our good 120 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:52,240 luck. A sick gentleman. 121 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:57,600 I can vividly see him now, quite tall to have teeth lean across 122 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,680 the car window and saw my dad. He just put his hands up. 123 00:09:02,340 --> 00:09:06,460 Chondo Chondo Kuchen Karo. Dr. Saave, Dr. Saave. 124 00:09:06,780 --> 00:09:12,500 My father was a physician at 9 hospital and he happened to be 125 00:09:13,020 --> 00:09:16,100 one of his patients. How luck works? 126 00:09:16,700 --> 00:09:20,980 And the car, then we were trying to start the engine and the 127 00:09:20,980 --> 00:09:23,300 engine wouldn't start. So it was. 128 00:09:23,780 --> 00:09:27,860 Great to watch the crowd wishing the car to give us a start. 129 00:09:28,730 --> 00:09:33,610 And as soon as the pusher given the engine started and it got 130 00:09:33,610 --> 00:09:39,810 onto the Tilak Bridge and came back to Parsi Colony safely home 131 00:09:40,210 --> 00:09:42,970 with the car a little bit damaged by the sticks that they 132 00:09:42,970 --> 00:09:46,930 were banging and all. And it was that, an experience I 133 00:09:46,930 --> 00:09:50,450 will never forget. At the time of India becoming a 134 00:09:50,450 --> 00:09:52,970 Republic, it already had its biggest hero. 135 00:09:53,450 --> 00:09:56,650 Doctor Sunawala talks about how Mahatma Gandhi's methods were 136 00:09:56,650 --> 00:09:59,340 questioned right until India became independent. 137 00:09:59,580 --> 00:10:02,620 But on hindsight, it's even more remarkable, he says. 138 00:10:03,780 --> 00:10:09,740 I think he was the right person who was responsible for the 139 00:10:11,020 --> 00:10:15,300 independence that we finally got without violence. 140 00:10:17,380 --> 00:10:22,340 That time it seemed that it was stupid to be nonviolent to get 141 00:10:22,340 --> 00:10:28,020 the independence, but after? So many years, one realizes that 142 00:10:28,020 --> 00:10:33,420 what he did and achieved was something unimaginable. 143 00:10:33,580 --> 00:10:37,660 Without violence, without a gunfire, without a fight, 144 00:10:37,660 --> 00:10:40,620 without anything. He managed to get the country 145 00:10:40,620 --> 00:10:43,860 full independence. Julia Ribero, on the other hand, 146 00:10:43,860 --> 00:10:47,260 remembers Singh Jawarlal Nehru and talks of the aura that 147 00:10:47,260 --> 00:10:49,420 surrounded India's first Prime Minister. 148 00:10:50,420 --> 00:10:54,500 Panditji I saw very often in the course of my duties. 149 00:10:54,990 --> 00:10:58,950 My wife and my baby, which she had just been, she was about a 150 00:10:58,950 --> 00:11:05,110 year old and she is a baby, was brought by my wife to to be 151 00:11:05,310 --> 00:11:11,270 petted by Baddiji in Nanded where I was there speak and I 152 00:11:11,270 --> 00:11:14,870 remember that very well. I remember people running after 153 00:11:14,870 --> 00:11:19,630 his his Jeep usually like to stand in a Jeep and wave out to 154 00:11:19,630 --> 00:11:22,870 everyone and we were very worried, but there was not. 155 00:11:23,350 --> 00:11:27,710 That great danger in those days, people were just happy with him. 156 00:11:29,110 --> 00:11:31,590 Rahul Singh, on the other hand, remembers the effects of 157 00:11:31,590 --> 00:11:35,070 Partition on his family's life. He remembers how Partition 158 00:11:35,070 --> 00:11:38,070 changed people and the effect it had on his father. 159 00:11:39,030 --> 00:11:45,470 What I do remember about Lord at the school I went to and a girl 160 00:11:45,470 --> 00:11:50,830 became my very close friend called Shireen Kadar, Shireen's 161 00:11:50,830 --> 00:11:54,340 parents. Father was a very well known 162 00:11:54,340 --> 00:11:59,260 lawyer in Pakistan called Manzoor Kadar who then later on 163 00:11:59,620 --> 00:12:04,340 became head of the Supreme Court in Pakistan and foreign minister 164 00:12:04,420 --> 00:12:08,340 under UK. When the rights took place and 165 00:12:09,620 --> 00:12:15,820 partition took place, Manzoor Kadar and his family moved into 166 00:12:15,820 --> 00:12:21,100 what you see my fathers house that so that it would not get. 167 00:12:21,370 --> 00:12:26,690 Looted and my father, he left everything to Manzoor Kadhar and 168 00:12:26,690 --> 00:12:29,490 Manzoor Kadhar became the owner of that house. 169 00:12:30,250 --> 00:12:34,930 What partition did was, I think it created two kinds of people, 170 00:12:35,530 --> 00:12:42,770 one who suffered a lot and who became very embittered and sort 171 00:12:42,770 --> 00:12:46,970 of, I would say, almost communal because that suffered at the 172 00:12:46,970 --> 00:12:49,330 hands of Muslims. That became rather communal. 173 00:12:50,100 --> 00:12:55,340 But my father was in the other categories of those who were not 174 00:12:55,340 --> 00:12:58,780 emitted, who who was sad that the country had been divided up 175 00:12:59,460 --> 00:13:04,740 and who made it their ambition to try and bring the two people 176 00:13:04,740 --> 00:13:07,420 together. Not that it will ever be 177 00:13:07,420 --> 00:13:10,820 possible to bring the two countries together, but at least 178 00:13:10,820 --> 00:13:15,660 try and have better relations between Indians and Pakistani. 179 00:13:15,660 --> 00:13:20,310 Thats what was his great dream. And as a result of that, 180 00:13:21,390 --> 00:13:25,190 whenever any Pakistani came to visit India and wanted to see my 181 00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:27,510 father, father was quite busy at that time. 182 00:13:28,070 --> 00:13:32,830 He always opened his doors. They made joke and the family 183 00:13:33,310 --> 00:13:37,430 because he was little particular whom came to see him when we 184 00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:40,830 picked up the phone. If it if it sounded like a 185 00:13:40,830 --> 00:13:44,750 Muslim from Pakistan, immediately they were welcome 186 00:13:45,310 --> 00:13:52,630 to, you know, come there. No, that whatever we were being 187 00:13:53,830 --> 00:14:03,270 ruled by is now our own responsibility to find the means 188 00:14:03,270 --> 00:14:07,870 of ruling the country and deciding on rules, laws, 189 00:14:08,070 --> 00:14:11,550 whatever we want according to what we needed. 190 00:14:12,710 --> 00:14:16,910 And independence was a sort of a freedom. 191 00:14:18,220 --> 00:14:21,260 Freedom in life, which is very, very important. 192 00:14:21,940 --> 00:14:28,980 Freedom of thinking, freedom of speaking, freedom of action and 193 00:14:29,620 --> 00:14:40,300 it is a necessity of life and we got that on 13th August 1947 so 194 00:14:40,300 --> 00:14:45,340 that we had to work hard to develop our country and. 195 00:14:46,610 --> 00:14:54,690 Although we might not be as fast as people would like or we would 196 00:14:54,690 --> 00:15:02,650 like, but throughout these years India has progressed and in the 197 00:15:02,650 --> 00:15:07,050 right direction. There is a lot to cheer about 198 00:15:07,050 --> 00:15:10,330 India as it turns 76. Bhavika and Lata spoke with our 199 00:15:10,330 --> 00:15:13,010 three interviewees about what they thought was the biggest 200 00:15:13,010 --> 00:15:15,530 improvement that they've seen in their lifetimes. 201 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:18,840 Rahul Singh points out how, while the biggest change he's 202 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,200 seen in recent times is the growth of the information 203 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,600 technology sector, there are other things like the green 204 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,000 revolution that ensured an end to famines. 205 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:38,680 In the last few years, I can say the revolution in information 206 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,630 technology. Thats number of smartphones. 207 00:15:42,710 --> 00:15:45,350 People are using all that. I think that. 208 00:15:45,590 --> 00:15:50,150 But before that, frankly we really had, we did have a green 209 00:15:50,150 --> 00:15:53,070 revolution. As a result, the green 210 00:15:53,070 --> 00:15:55,390 revolution, we were able to feed our people. 211 00:15:55,390 --> 00:15:59,630 There were no mass famines. The other achievement, if you 212 00:15:59,630 --> 00:16:03,790 can call it that, was that our foreign policy was we were 213 00:16:03,790 --> 00:16:08,930 admired, you know, in the world. Non alignment policy was 214 00:16:08,930 --> 00:16:14,490 something which Nehru himself, you know, pioneered really, and 215 00:16:15,370 --> 00:16:19,090 it gave us a certain stature in the world. 216 00:16:20,450 --> 00:16:23,970 While it might not be an Indian invention, Dr. Sunawala points 217 00:16:23,970 --> 00:16:27,770 out that it was medical imaging that completely changed his line 218 00:16:27,770 --> 00:16:31,930 of work. In the medical field, mainly 219 00:16:31,930 --> 00:16:34,050 obsessive guy inside plus in other. 220 00:16:35,350 --> 00:16:41,470 Especially it is to imaging. The ultrasound has really 221 00:16:41,470 --> 00:16:46,790 changed the approach. Do medical treatment because we 222 00:16:46,790 --> 00:16:51,350 could better diagnose. You can see you can diagnose 223 00:16:51,350 --> 00:16:56,270 properly and if your diagnosis is good, your treatment is good. 224 00:16:57,750 --> 00:17:01,150 But Doctor Sunawala is just as happy about the rise of women in 225 00:17:01,150 --> 00:17:05,400 India, something he says is a far cry from the situation when 226 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,680 he took up medicine. I used to. 227 00:17:08,839 --> 00:17:12,119 I'm an obstetrician, gynecologist looking after the 228 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:16,440 welfare of the women, Not only the health thing, but the 229 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:23,000 welfare of the women. And what was striking was the 230 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,400 complete empathy towards the health of the women. 231 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,160 Nobody bothered. They were always considered as a 232 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,600 second class citizen, no facilities given. 233 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,200 Everywhere it was male dominant society. 234 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:46,280 Now I am so glad to say that especially in our offsetting 235 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:51,560 Ionic field, the women have become the leaders as they 236 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:57,360 should be because it is after all their own fellow sex people 237 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,640 who they have to look after the amount of women power that is 238 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,670 building up. The women heading major 239 00:18:04,670 --> 00:18:13,030 institutions, which at that time was not even thought of Julia 240 00:18:13,030 --> 00:18:15,910 Ribeiro says the use of technology in policing today is 241 00:18:15,910 --> 00:18:19,110 impressive, though he admits he can't really keep up with it. 242 00:18:20,230 --> 00:18:24,630 For example, I don't know this technology like I like now. 243 00:18:24,630 --> 00:18:30,430 Today even Mr. Rani, he knows technology very well and I keep 244 00:18:30,430 --> 00:18:34,070 him present to help me. Because I I can't get used to 245 00:18:34,070 --> 00:18:37,270 it, because I'm no. But now technology is most 246 00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:40,910 important. Every policeman knows it and all 247 00:18:40,910 --> 00:18:44,470 my grandchildren, they laugh at me because I can't do it. 248 00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:47,630 So they come and help me to get it all done. 249 00:18:48,870 --> 00:18:52,470 However, what upsets the former director general of police is 250 00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:55,910 that police forces have become more compromised to political 251 00:18:55,910 --> 00:18:59,630 powers. That is unfortunate because of 252 00:19:00,230 --> 00:19:04,480 the influence of politics. Because a lot of people want to 253 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:11,320 now advance not by their own work, but by becoming friendly 254 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:14,960 with the politicians, and that is causing a lot of problem. 255 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:20,200 It never happened in our time, and we we were, I think, 256 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,920 fortunately not involved in all this. 257 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,600 Julia Ribeiro says that unless the law is implemented 258 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,960 impartially, the respect for the rule of law will only keep 259 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,790 declining. Unless the rule of law that 260 00:19:34,790 --> 00:19:39,390 means whoever commits an offence should be prosecuted, you don't 261 00:19:39,390 --> 00:19:41,350 have to go and put him in the lock up. 262 00:19:41,350 --> 00:19:46,110 Now they are putting people five years, those those leftists I 263 00:19:46,110 --> 00:19:49,910 kept there for five years and God knows what that evidence is. 264 00:19:50,510 --> 00:19:53,230 It is. It's very unfortunate. 265 00:19:53,470 --> 00:19:58,070 I think the whole system has changed and that is not to our 266 00:19:58,070 --> 00:20:00,710 advantage. Because if people get used to 267 00:20:00,710 --> 00:20:04,030 this kind, they will stop learning how to investigate 268 00:20:04,030 --> 00:20:06,110 that. Nowadays you will find that 269 00:20:06,110 --> 00:20:10,510 officers at that level of Mr. Raniya, they dont take interest 270 00:20:10,510 --> 00:20:14,510 in investigation because they know it doesnt matter the sound 271 00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:17,630 if he is this party or that party, he gets off. 272 00:20:17,630 --> 00:20:19,990 If he is that party he will put inside. 273 00:20:20,590 --> 00:20:24,230 We were not brought up like that, that whoever it is, from 274 00:20:24,230 --> 00:20:27,110 whichever party, that is not our concern. 275 00:20:28,430 --> 00:20:34,190 Is there anybody willing to talk, say to Modi Ji or to or to 276 00:20:34,630 --> 00:20:38,310 our Amit Shah? They're afraid. 277 00:20:39,790 --> 00:20:43,350 They're so afraid. No, this is not the way of of 278 00:20:43,350 --> 00:20:45,070 people. So it's quite different. 279 00:20:46,110 --> 00:20:49,870 Yeah, I would not be able to work in the Circum, I can tell 280 00:20:49,910 --> 00:20:52,790 you that. But what do they see as India's 281 00:20:52,790 --> 00:20:57,150 biggest failures in 76 years? Rahul Singh says that for him. 282 00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:00,500 It's the failure to reduce poverty in the country, as well 283 00:21:00,500 --> 00:21:04,100 as the failure to provide better healthcare and education to its 284 00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:09,820 citizens. I think our biggest failure, I 285 00:21:09,820 --> 00:21:13,300 would say there are two areas and they're all connected. 286 00:21:14,020 --> 00:21:18,980 I think our biggest failure has been to not reduce the number of 287 00:21:19,020 --> 00:21:23,980 poor people in the country. We still have about 250 million 288 00:21:24,860 --> 00:21:26,700 Indians who are below the poverty line. 289 00:21:27,210 --> 00:21:30,970 I think our second biggest failure has been in the area of 290 00:21:31,410 --> 00:21:36,850 health and education. Nehru was a great man, had a 291 00:21:36,850 --> 00:21:40,890 great vision, but the two areas where he I think failed and 292 00:21:41,250 --> 00:21:45,890 where a country like China did much better, even a country like 293 00:21:45,890 --> 00:21:50,010 Indonesia, big country did better, was in the areas of 294 00:21:50,010 --> 00:21:52,810 education and health. And by education I dont mean 295 00:21:52,810 --> 00:21:57,200 higher education. We set up I, I TS and I, I Ms. 296 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,320 and, you know, good universities. 297 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:05,200 But where we failed was in providing good basic primary 298 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:10,160 schools all over the country. We didn't do pay enough emphasis 299 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,800 on Primary Health care and primary schools. 300 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,880 And connected with that was our failure to control the 301 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,490 population growth rate. Julia Ribeiro also believes that 302 00:22:22,490 --> 00:22:24,770 it's illiteracy that the Indian state should have done more to 303 00:22:24,770 --> 00:22:27,170 tackle. Dr. Suna Wala, who has 304 00:22:27,170 --> 00:22:29,370 campaigned for population control for many years of his 305 00:22:29,370 --> 00:22:32,410 life, says the Indian state should have done more to curb 306 00:22:32,410 --> 00:22:34,610 the growth of the nation's population. 307 00:22:35,970 --> 00:22:39,850 We make a proud to show. India is the most populated 308 00:22:39,850 --> 00:22:42,970 country. I really feel sorry for them. 309 00:22:43,370 --> 00:22:50,900 They don't realize what is the. Benefit of a big, uneducated, 310 00:22:51,260 --> 00:22:57,220 poorly fed, unhealthy and unprovided for a shelter 311 00:22:57,540 --> 00:23:03,580 population in the country where I would say it's a human right 312 00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:10,780 to be looked after for education, for health, for food 313 00:23:11,060 --> 00:23:15,340 and accommodation. It is the human right which our 314 00:23:15,340 --> 00:23:20,910 country should look into. For every individual Indian that 315 00:23:20,910 --> 00:23:30,030 is born, education and health are very necessary for the 316 00:23:30,030 --> 00:23:34,390 progress of a country. It is not whether we can make 317 00:23:34,390 --> 00:23:38,950 planes or whether we can make tanks or whether we can make 318 00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:41,150 guns. That is important for the 319 00:23:41,150 --> 00:23:46,390 country, a country's progress as a doctor and a citizen. 320 00:23:47,050 --> 00:23:55,010 I would say is to be measured by a yardstick of how much good 321 00:23:55,010 --> 00:23:59,170 health you can provide them, good education we can provide 322 00:23:59,170 --> 00:24:03,770 them, and a good happy life you can provide them. 323 00:24:04,370 --> 00:24:09,450 Happiness in life is a very important thing and I would say 324 00:24:09,490 --> 00:24:13,810 hardly any people are that happy as they should be. 325 00:24:15,130 --> 00:24:18,590 But what of the future? India, at 76, is in a moment 326 00:24:18,590 --> 00:24:21,590 where its influence as an economic and political power is 327 00:24:21,590 --> 00:24:23,830 growing. What to our interviewees worry 328 00:24:23,830 --> 00:24:27,190 about in India's future? Rahul Singh says that India 329 00:24:27,190 --> 00:24:30,630 shouldn't take its freedom for granted, especially at a time it 330 00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:34,070 has a majoritarian government. But he has no doubt that the 331 00:24:34,070 --> 00:24:37,190 future is bright for India. He would, however, like to see 332 00:24:37,190 --> 00:24:40,270 India be able to retain its brightest in the country. 333 00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:42,870 I think we've got a great future. 334 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,440 Look at how Indians have done all over the world. 335 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,560 But the sad part is Indians have done very well when they go 336 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,880 abroad. They should be doing better in 337 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,920 India itself. We should remove some of the 338 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,240 shackles that there are on Indian business here. 339 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:04,680 You know, almost every second friend Ive got have got their 340 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,560 children studying and living abroad. 341 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,640 Why They should be coming here and they should be conditions 342 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,930 here where? They are able to really thrive 343 00:25:15,930 --> 00:25:22,050 and improve the Indian economy. I wish there were more and more 344 00:25:22,090 --> 00:25:27,370 Indians educated Indians who would work for this country. 345 00:25:27,570 --> 00:25:32,890 When I was finished my studies amongst all of my 346 00:25:32,890 --> 00:25:37,450 contemporaries, there was no question about staying abroad. 347 00:25:37,970 --> 00:25:41,290 We all took it for granted that we were coming back to India 348 00:25:41,890 --> 00:25:46,430 nowadays. They want to live abroad and not 349 00:25:46,430 --> 00:25:49,750 come back to this country. At my time, they all wanted to 350 00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:51,990 come back to them. And there was a feeling of 351 00:25:51,990 --> 00:25:56,350 nationalism, feeling to serve the country that somehow is 352 00:25:56,350 --> 00:25:58,110 gone. You've got a certain kind of 353 00:25:58,110 --> 00:26:01,350 nationalism here, but it's not the same kind of nationalism 354 00:26:01,350 --> 00:26:06,710 that was there at my time. Doctor Suna Wala worries about a 355 00:26:06,710 --> 00:26:10,270 future where justice is openly denied and the rights of women 356 00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:17,050 are not protected. Arrogance and greed are two 357 00:26:17,050 --> 00:26:21,130 things which is ruining the human life. 358 00:26:24,130 --> 00:26:27,450 Greed for more and more and more. 359 00:26:28,530 --> 00:26:35,050 If you have enough to look after your day-to-day food, home, 360 00:26:35,690 --> 00:26:40,930 happiness, good sleep at night is what is more important. 361 00:26:41,570 --> 00:26:46,730 Then a bank balance or a black money balance going into crores 362 00:26:46,730 --> 00:26:51,730 and crores of rupees. The women who brought credit to 363 00:26:51,730 --> 00:26:57,970 the country by getting gold medals, How shabbily they are 364 00:26:58,290 --> 00:27:04,050 being treated by the boss who was. 365 00:27:06,170 --> 00:27:08,930 Very uncomfortably touching their body. 366 00:27:09,550 --> 00:27:14,030 He is behaving as if he has done something right when there are 367 00:27:14,030 --> 00:27:19,710 so many girls who have been molested by that individual, yet 368 00:27:20,150 --> 00:27:23,550 he is going free. It is something which is 369 00:27:23,790 --> 00:27:29,510 unacceptable. The women and children are not 370 00:27:29,510 --> 00:27:36,990 protected in any society. That society is not worth living 371 00:27:36,990 --> 00:27:41,250 for. And that is what is happening in 372 00:27:41,250 --> 00:27:48,850 the country, the politics and justice being denied, openly 373 00:27:48,850 --> 00:27:52,290 denied. Julia Ribeiro worries that 374 00:27:52,290 --> 00:27:55,650 movements to maintain communal harmony are no longer working. 375 00:27:55,930 --> 00:27:58,970 He cautions that while there is a lot to cheer about India's 376 00:27:58,970 --> 00:28:02,050 growth, there is a lot to be cautious about as well. 377 00:28:03,250 --> 00:28:08,330 After I returned from Romania, I used to get involved in communal 378 00:28:08,330 --> 00:28:10,760 harmony. We had the mohalla committee 379 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:15,920 movement and we had succeeded. But now the same workers tell me 380 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,880 that there is so much fear and all the work they have done is 381 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,560 now of no use. They have to start off again. 382 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,400 But I say dont give up, dont give up because its not fair to 383 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:32,640 the people. I would say that the the present 384 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,960 government in power has done a lot of good work. 385 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:41,990 Let us not diminish their work. For example, the money goes 386 00:28:41,990 --> 00:28:46,910 directly into the bank. That's a great, great this of 387 00:28:46,910 --> 00:28:50,190 them. And there are many other things 388 00:28:50,190 --> 00:28:54,110 that what shall I say, that they have succeeded it. 389 00:28:54,430 --> 00:29:01,470 But this kind of what is the word for it? 390 00:29:02,310 --> 00:29:06,400 Prejudice against one particular community is not going to help 391 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,880 this country at all. It might give them votes first. 392 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:15,000 I thought it is for the purpose of getting power that if you go 393 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,360 after this community, the Hindu vote will be will will come 394 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:25,840 together 80% of the people. But it has not happened like 395 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,360 that. But quite a number of people who 396 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,320 would not have voted have have been have voting for them. 397 00:29:34,870 --> 00:29:37,230 I have no doubt about that truck. 398 00:29:37,470 --> 00:29:39,830 What is politics? Its a quest for power. 399 00:29:40,310 --> 00:29:44,910 So if they get power that way I suppose I how can I fight with 400 00:29:44,910 --> 00:29:48,590 them. But the down the downside is 401 00:29:48,590 --> 00:29:52,670 what I have. But it that if you divide people 402 00:29:52,670 --> 00:29:55,870 in this manner like they are doing, it is going to be bad in 403 00:29:55,870 --> 00:30:00,350 the long run. We have a very dangerous 404 00:30:01,230 --> 00:30:06,480 neighbor on our east. The one on the West we can 405 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:13,640 manage easily, but the one on the east is very dangerous and 406 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:18,720 is much stronger than us. So I think the whole approach 407 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:24,520 should be like that that please keep in mind the future of this 408 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:29,640 country and if you just go around with wanting only to win 409 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,050 the election it might Causeway lot of problems in in the 410 00:30:34,090 --> 00:30:35,770 future. This is my view. 411 00:30:42,370 --> 00:30:45,770 Today's episode was produced by Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. 412 00:30:46,130 --> 00:30:49,450 For a daily spotlight on people, ideas and stories that matter, 413 00:30:49,690 --> 00:30:53,370 subscribe to us. We're available on Ty, Spotify, 414 00:30:53,650 --> 00:30:57,370 Apple, Google Podcasts, and all other platforms of your choice. 415 00:30:58,020 --> 00:31:02,900 For any news tips, e-mail us at TUI Podcast at Timesinternet in.