1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,080 From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:20,920 Times of India podcast. Our embassy is actively pursuing 3 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,440 this. Case That was the statement made 4 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,120 by India's Foreign Ministry spokesperson back in December 5 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:29,800 2022 about the arrest and detention of eight Navy veterans 6 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,800 who were working in Qatar. Not much change in the case 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:34,400 between then and earlier this month. 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,000 On the 27th of October, the ministry expressed shock when 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,320 all eight of the Navy veterans were sentenced to death. 10 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:44,360 Captain Navdeed Singhil, Captain Birendra Kumar Verma, Captain 11 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,200 Saurabh Bashesh, Commander Amit Nagpal, Commander Purnendu 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,600 Tiwari, Commander Sugunakar Pakala, Commander Sanjeev Gupta 13 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,960 and Sailor Ragesh were taken into custody by the Qatari 14 00:00:55,960 --> 00:01:00,160 intelligence service in Doha on the 30th of August 2022. 15 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,640 All eight men were detained and kept in solitary confinement. 16 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:06,960 Initially, multiple pleas for bail were rejected by the Qatari 17 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:09,200 court. The Indian government says it 18 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,000 still doesn't have a detailed version of the judgment to 19 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,680 appeal against it. However, multiple authorities 20 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,920 including Foreign Minister SJ Shankar have said that all 21 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,840 efforts would be made to ensure the Navy veterans release. 22 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:24,000 So what is known? All eight former Navy officials 23 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,640 were working with a company called Dhara Global in Qatar and 24 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:29,480 have been arrested on charges of espionage. 25 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,840 However, the charges against the Indian nationals have not been 26 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:34,800 made public by Qatari authorities. 27 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,120 Dara Global CEO Khamisa Lajmi, a retired Squadron Leader of the 28 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:42,240 Royal Oman Air Force, was briefly detained last day but 29 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,520 later released. The Indian national was said to 30 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,480 have been working on Qatar submarine project and also in 31 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,000 training Qatari defense forces. Some reports have hinted that 32 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,960 the eight Indians are accused of passing details of the Qatar 33 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,080 defense project to Israel. However, both India and Qatar 34 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:00,920 have not confirmed this claim In today's episode, My colleague 35 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,440 Harinder Bhaveja is in conversation with retired Major 36 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,680 General Satveer Singh, who is chairman of the Indian Ex 37 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,400 Servicemen Movement and United Front of Ex Servicemen. 38 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,720 He's been meeting with the family members of the DT and 39 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,600 Navy veterans and has also been writing to the government 40 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:17,640 seeking their help in resolving the issue. 41 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,840 He talks to Harinder Bhaveja about the handling of the case 42 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,080 so far and what he thinks can be done now. 43 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,720 Indias Foreign Minister Mr. Jay Shankar met the families only 44 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,520 after the death sentence was announced. 45 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,440 Isn't that shocking? Earlier also they have been 46 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,880 meeting. In fact the families were 47 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,640 allowed to go to Doha and meet the people. 48 00:02:43,640 --> 00:02:46,600 That was also with the help of the our government. 49 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,280 So I believe that action has been taken but the outcome has 50 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:55,800 been nil. Isn't it surprising, Sir, that 51 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,280 despite the friendly relationship that you mentioned, 52 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,880 in fact Qatar and India celebrated 50 years of 53 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,440 friendship. Only recently there has been an 54 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,680 information void. We don't know what the charges 55 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:11,920 are, what they've been tried for, Everything is so hush hush 56 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,000 and even the Government of India is not taking its people into 57 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,480 confidence, not even taking the families into confidence. 58 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,960 But unfortunately it is shocking to the government too and they 59 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,720 said that we will do our best to ensure that our veterans come 60 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,240 back their safety. Even yesterday I've written a 61 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,560 letter to the honourable Prime Minister requesting him to do 62 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:38,440 his best to get our people back. There is no way we can get any 63 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,520 harm to our veterans, our defence personnel who have so 64 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,640 much of to give to the people they were training on the 65 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,280 request of the guitar. And training the Navy of the 66 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,960 guitar. I failed to understand that how 67 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,480 guitar has taken this step to put them, award them to go to 68 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,400 the gallows. The families have been in touch 69 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:03,360 with you for 14 months, ever since the officers were taken 70 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:09,200 into custody in August 2022. They must really be devastated. 71 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:14,200 How are the families doing, Sir? They were held into captivity on 72 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:18,120 the 30th of August. On 28th November, I believe that 73 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,200 they were trying at their own meeting everyone or meeting the 74 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,600 ambassador doing their best. But the families came to me on 75 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:30,480 the 28th of November morning Immediately on same day I wrote 76 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:35,400 a letter to the honorable our foreign minister with a copy to 77 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,000 the honorable Prime Minister and also to the defense Minister and 78 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,200 the three chiefs, the best brother who himself is in 79 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:43,840 Merchant Navy as a captain of the ship. 80 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,200 He has been ringing up also almost once a week or two or 81 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,520 twice a week. And the mother of Tej and the 82 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:56,240 wife of Tej. Then there was a Sagolka 83 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,160 commander, his wife and sister. They also came. 84 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,720 Then there is another from Gwalia Bhargwas. 85 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,360 They also have been in contact. So they have been coming off and 86 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,800 on to us for almost a year past. We've been also similarly trying 87 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,520 our level best. So families are concerned. 88 00:05:15,840 --> 00:05:19,320 In fact very concerned. Day before when they were here 89 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,920 or three, four of them, I I could see the Maoist eyes giving 90 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,800 a life like this with no chances and somebody hanging us or 91 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,680 shooting us. It's just not acceptable. 92 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:36,080 Not to the defense forces, anyone serving or retired or to 93 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,840 the people of India. Let not that happen. 94 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:42,680 Therefore, all our pressures, not only of India but our 95 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,280 government must solicit the pressures from the whole world 96 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:51,120 to ensure that Qatar does not do anything wrong to harm our 97 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,240 patrons. Do you believe that the day the 98 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,840 death sentence was announced, we were all shocked? 99 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,200 Even the statement put out by the Government of India used the 100 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:05,600 word shock. Shocking. 101 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,920 Yes, so that day. Don't you think some senior 102 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:14,200 diplomat or minister should have gone to Qatar? 103 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,800 Well, it's the government's, you know, what they wish to do is 104 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,520 there. But as an individual, yes I I 105 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,200 feel the senior from the government, maybe a mobile call 106 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:29,840 or a telephone from honourable Prime Minister as well as 107 00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:33,120 sending either the foreign minister or somebody higher up 108 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,680 go to Qatar and speak to the government who can get these 109 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:40,120 people back. So you expected that, but that 110 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,400 hasn't happened yet? There's nothing reported on the 111 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,200 news anywhere. That must be that the some 112 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,480 communication, diplomatic channels or something must be 113 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,280 going on, but we've not heard the honourable Prime Minister to 114 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:56,720 speak or the foreign minister to go. 115 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:01,360 So the government is a has expressed shock at the death 116 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:05,480 sentence and it also says that it's not fully aware of the 117 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:09,280 charges and which. The naval officers were 118 00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:13,520 sentenced. Now isn't that a fair of sorts? 119 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:18,600 India said at one of the press conferences that it is providing 120 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:23,360 legal aid to the families. How can we not know the charges? 121 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:29,960 What is known to me through various media that there was 122 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,920 legal aid given and probably there were no arguments on this 123 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,160 in the court. And without arguments or 124 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:40,800 something we not heard, when there are no concrete charges, I 125 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,040 think there is a case to go to International Court of Justice 126 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:49,120 also if there is a need required after the diplomatic channels 127 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:52,440 have gone through. So there have been several 128 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:59,640 reports in the media saying that the naval officers were charged 129 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:05,520 for spying with for Israel. My question to you is that. 130 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,880 These reports were not denied by the Government of India. 131 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,360 That is something that is, you know, very discomforting. 132 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:19,440 I would not like to go on this question, the reason being that 133 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:25,560 this is something which led to the security and therefore best 134 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,240 left to the government. I was only wondering as to why 135 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:30,840 there's been no denial, that's all. 136 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:33,960 That is the government to answer. 137 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,559 I really, as an individual or a soldier, may not be able to do 138 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,039 so and I wish. I would not like to say anything 139 00:08:41,039 --> 00:08:43,480 or make a comment on what the government is doing. 140 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,960 For one month we did not even know that the naval officers had 141 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,040 been taken into custody. The information became public 142 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:58,360 only when the sister of one of the commanders, she put out a 143 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,040 tweet tagging the Prime Minister. 144 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,880 That is how we got to know. Yes, I suppose so. 145 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:07,880 But when you're asking this question, I'm sure we have our 146 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,920 intelligence, we have all that and yet we did not know. 147 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:17,040 And where 30% of diaspora in in in Qatar is Indian, why we did 148 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,840 not know is also something my my mind doesn't accept. 149 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:25,240 What do you think are India's options? 150 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,120 As a soldier, as a defence analyst, I would say there are 151 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,680 few options which are available. First is to use our own 152 00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:38,440 government to Qatar government direct talk. 153 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:43,440 The second, which I feel is to go to various organizations of 154 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,360 the world, G20 or whatever we have. 155 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:51,000 I'm sure all these people can create pressure to then ask the 156 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:55,160 Qataris government to send back our people and don't harm them. 157 00:09:55,680 --> 00:09:58,320 Then we have International Court of Justice. 158 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:01,600 We should go to the International Court of Justice 159 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,000 and fight with the best of advocates we have in the 160 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,240 country. Such cases from various 161 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,280 countries have happened where the International Court of 162 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,840 Justice has ordered reversal of whatever punishments have been 163 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:16,640 given across the world for various countries. 164 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:23,600 So there is a treaty which was signed between India and Qatar 165 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,720 in 2015. For transfer of prisoners, 166 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,320 wherein the prisoners come back to their own country and serve 167 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,320 the sentence. But the complication in this 168 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,360 case is that it is not a life sentence, it is a death 169 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:43,200 sentence. So actually this is now a very, 170 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,640 very complicated case. They can even find out a way in 171 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,640 the judiciary to reverse the thing, and mercy petition is one 172 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,400 of them. And that also can be given 173 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,600 straight away. Or if the pressure is enough and 174 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,520 the Qatar government armir agrees to it, there are 175 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:05,120 challenges, both legal as well as diplomatic. 176 00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:09,440 So our own diaspora is there, our trade is there, and why not 177 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,400 we stop that or do something to ensure that enough pressure 178 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,000 comes on here is that some people are there working for 179 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:21,160 them, working to help them. They are requested and we help 180 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:22,800 them. And then they're doing it. 181 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,800 I think there is something very serious which has given this 182 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,040 handle to the Qatari government to order death sentence. 183 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:37,080 Well, India must not accept it. Take all possible actions to see 184 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:41,200 that our people come back. The government definitely now 185 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:46,920 needs to go beyond just paying legal fees and hiring the best 186 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:52,200 lawyers. Are the families feeling even 1% 187 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,880 more reassured after their recent meeting with the foreign 188 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,360 minister? Just before the meeting, 5 189 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,760 minutes before I spoke to Navdeep Gill, who's brother of 190 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,920 Navdeep. They're saying, well, we are on 191 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:14,240 a fingers crossed. Though the honorable Foreign 192 00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:18,840 Minister did say about four or five action plans to them, they 193 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,240 are still depressed. Commander Tiwari's mother as 194 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,800 well as sister and wife of Sagodkar, they are also here 195 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,240 only and they have been attempting to meet. 196 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:35,320 They also felt that they were probably not given enough space 197 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,160 to speak about for last one year. 198 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:43,160 Or that they are heard and various action they might have 199 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:47,680 been taken, but the families were not informed that with that 200 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:51,120 assurance. So let me ask you a straight 201 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,000 question because you're heading the Indian Ex servicemen 202 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,520 movement. The interest of all veterans 203 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,560 lies in your heart and you are battling that every day. 204 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,200 You must be quite broken. Now that there is this death 205 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:13,240 sentence staring us in the face. As been given this 206 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:19,200 responsibility, I do feel concerned and I do feel shocked 207 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:24,440 and I feel that this will not be done, this will not be allowed, 208 00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:28,640 this must not be allowed. And you want your veterans back? 209 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,560 Veterans across the country from all three services. 210 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,440 They are writing, they are speaking, they are asking and 211 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,840 they stand with our veterans and they are demanding that they 212 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,520 must come back. They have also asked me that 213 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,960 take all measures possible to ensure the government does all 214 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:54,480 that and our people come back. Put out an appeal through Times 215 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,760 of India to the Prime Minister. What would you like to tell him 216 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,040 as far as the Qatar case goes, Sir? 217 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:06,160 Such a petition has been also floated by someone which over 218 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:08,720 2,00,000 people have already signed. 219 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,480 I would appeal to the all the people of India. 220 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,640 We should put out that petition to the honourable Prime Minister 221 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,720 to ensure that our people come back and through you, put across 222 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,000 whole country or world, wherever our diaspora is, that we should 223 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:28,280 all join together and do our best by any means what we can. 224 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,800 And put out this petition or request or appeal to the Prime 225 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:36,520 Minister that people he must now as a government take action as 226 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,640 he deems with as the government deems with. 227 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:44,960 Our bottom line is my weapons must come back as safe as they 228 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,880 were sent from here. Would you like to see him doing 229 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:54,480 more like sending senior ministers, officials to Qatar, 230 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,920 sitting there putting pressure, saying. 231 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,520 Tell us the charges. What have you done? 232 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,000 Why have you done this? I would like to appeal that I 233 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,480 have appealed to the honourable Prime Minister that take all 234 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,360 measures as the government feels fit. 235 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,600 But I requested him. It's safe and sound. 236 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:20,760 Our veterans return as soon as possible and they are taken away 237 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,520 from the custody and repatriated soonest as it can. 238 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,480 Today's episode was produced by Jayraj Singh and Anuja Singh. 239 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,160 For a daily spotlight on people, ideas and stories that matter, 240 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,040 subscribe to us. We're available on TOI, Spotify, 241 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,040 Apple, Google Podcasts and all other platforms of your choice. 242 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:52,320 For any news tips, e-mail us at TOI podcast at Timesinternet dot 243 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:52,640 in.