1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,080 From Indias largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:24,370 Times of India podcast. Mana Ki abhi tere mere armano Ki 3 00:00:24,490 --> 00:00:29,210 Ki mat kuch bhi nahi mitti ka bhi hai. 4 00:00:29,730 --> 00:00:38,450 Kuch mol Magar in Sano Ki Ki mat Kuch bhi nahi in Sano Ki E Jate. 5 00:00:38,850 --> 00:00:48,050 Jab Jisdin Jute si ko ma toli na Jaye Ki Bo suba kabhi tohi. 6 00:00:55,410 --> 00:00:58,410 That's trade unionist and human rights lawyer Sudha Bhardwaj 7 00:00:58,730 --> 00:01:01,610 singing her favorite song pinned by Sahir Ludhianvi. 8 00:01:01,930 --> 00:01:05,330 Sudha Bhardwaj has been out of the headlines for a while, so 9 00:01:05,330 --> 00:01:08,690 let's refresh your memory. Sudha Bhardwaj is one of the 17 10 00:01:08,690 --> 00:01:11,530 people arrested in what is called the Elgar Parishad case. 11 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,680 One of those accused and arrested in the case was Jesuit 12 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:18,360 priest Tan Swami, who died in custody in 2021. 13 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,840 The 17 people arrested in the case are accused of delivering 14 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,200 inflammatory speeches at the Elgar Parishad conclave in Pune 15 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,640 on the 31st of December in 2017. The Maharashtra police claimed 16 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,200 that the speeches triggered violence at the Bhima Koregaon 17 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,160 War Memorial, which is a significant place for the Dalit 18 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,160 community. The police claimed that the 19 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,630 Elgar Parishad event was backed by Maoist and the probe was 20 00:01:40,630 --> 00:01:44,310 later taken up by the National Investigation Agency. 2 Hindutva 21 00:01:44,310 --> 00:01:47,390 group leaders accused of making hate speeches before the Elgar 22 00:01:47,390 --> 00:01:50,110 Parishad event never faced any serious charges. 23 00:01:50,590 --> 00:01:53,470 Sudha Bharadwaj was granted bail in 2021. 24 00:01:53,870 --> 00:01:57,230 She can't talk about the specifics of the case yet, but 25 00:01:57,230 --> 00:02:01,390 she can talk about her new book titled From Fasi Yad, My Year 26 00:02:01,470 --> 00:02:04,510 with the Women of Yerwada, which has just been released. 27 00:02:05,070 --> 00:02:07,590 The book is an account of the world of women prisoners in 28 00:02:07,590 --> 00:02:10,990 Yerwada jail in Pune, where Bhardwaj was launched for two 29 00:02:10,990 --> 00:02:14,470 years in the high security wing that is called Fasi Yard. 30 00:02:14,990 --> 00:02:17,430 My colleague Alka Dukar caught up with her at the house in 31 00:02:17,430 --> 00:02:20,110 Mumbai that she's required to stay in as part of the 32 00:02:20,110 --> 00:02:22,070 conditions for her being granted bail. 33 00:02:22,470 --> 00:02:24,670 Among other things. Alka spoke with Sudha Bhardwaj 34 00:02:24,790 --> 00:02:27,990 about her time in prison, what her book documents, why she's 35 00:02:27,990 --> 00:02:31,390 still an optimist and the importance of dissidents in a 36 00:02:31,390 --> 00:02:34,650 democracy. I don't know if we should 37 00:02:34,650 --> 00:02:38,130 congratulate you on this book because, as you have named it, 38 00:02:38,130 --> 00:02:42,890 Pasi Yard dedicated this book to all who are unjusticely 39 00:02:43,250 --> 00:02:47,570 incarcerated. Do you count yourself in one of 40 00:02:47,570 --> 00:02:50,050 those? Yes, I think I do. 41 00:02:50,290 --> 00:02:54,290 But I think I'm one of many. Many people have been in Justly 42 00:02:54,290 --> 00:02:57,370 Incarcerated. And yeah, that is why the book 43 00:02:57,370 --> 00:03:01,580 is dedicated to them. One of your bail conditions says 44 00:03:01,580 --> 00:03:05,900 that you must not leave Mumbai. You have described this 45 00:03:05,900 --> 00:03:09,500 situation previously as you're in exile. 46 00:03:09,820 --> 00:03:12,620 So would you like to elaborate on this? 47 00:03:12,620 --> 00:03:14,780 How badly do you miss Chhattisgarh? 48 00:03:15,980 --> 00:03:20,380 Actually at a very young age, at the age of 25 itself, I got 49 00:03:20,380 --> 00:03:24,660 involved with the trade union. Of late, Comrade Shankar 50 00:03:24,660 --> 00:03:28,300 Guhaniyogi and ever since then I have been in Chhattisgarh 51 00:03:28,300 --> 00:03:32,340 working with the 1st in Delhi Rajara, then in Bhilai. 52 00:03:32,860 --> 00:03:35,380 Then it was the trade union movement itself which made me a 53 00:03:35,380 --> 00:03:39,460 lawyer. And then I shifted to Bilaspur 54 00:03:39,460 --> 00:03:41,660 where we had a group of lawyers called Janhit. 55 00:03:42,220 --> 00:03:48,700 So my entire life has been there and my friends, my colleagues, 56 00:03:48,740 --> 00:03:51,620 my comrades, my young associates. 57 00:03:52,020 --> 00:03:54,900 Everybody out there. So it is really exiled for me. 58 00:03:55,300 --> 00:03:57,060 I miss everything about Chhattisgarh. 59 00:03:58,100 --> 00:04:01,060 Are you a true Mumbaikar now? To be fried. 60 00:04:01,180 --> 00:04:07,300 Oh yes, I find Mumbai still a very much working class city 61 00:04:07,300 --> 00:04:09,180 even though all the mills have closed down. 62 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,760 It still has a very working class flavor about it, and now 63 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,800 that I've got used to travelling in the local trains and all that 64 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,000 one thing, I find that it's a very it's a very alive city. 65 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:25,640 It's a very, you know, all the time bustling, moving, and of 66 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,000 course, rents are prohibitively expensive. 67 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,480 I'm just very lucky that I have friends who were willing to 68 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,760 allow me to live in their houses, otherwise I couldn't 69 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:35,880 have afforded it. But yes, food. 70 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,600 Maybe you can purchase for ₹5 a meal and ₹5000 a meal. 71 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:44,240 Also, all kinds of people are here, and the city, in a sense, 72 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,360 embraces all of them. So I am also one in the crowd. 73 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:51,720 I feel embraced by this city. One of the things Sudha Bhardwaj 74 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,360 documents in her book is being forced to trade in her sarees 75 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,560 for the Salwar kurta in jail. When Alka spoke with her, she 76 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,400 was dressed in a blue kurta in Salwar. 77 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,000 She explains to Alka how the sari became a part of her life 78 00:05:03,280 --> 00:05:05,880 and why she had to change what she wore in jail. 79 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,960 I used to wear Salwar Kutta in my early union days during the 80 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,680 Bhilai movement, which was the major movement of the contract 81 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,200 workers of Bhilai. So that time, during that 82 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,720 railroad Co agitation, there was a police firing, 17 people had 83 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:25,200 died, many people were in jail, some people were wounded, they 84 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,880 were in the hospital. And at that time I used to be 85 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,120 rushing around from place to place, sometimes to the 86 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,520 hospital, sometimes to the court, sometimes to the union 87 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:38,160 office. And I became very conspicuous 88 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,280 because of my Salwar Kurta, which is not a very normal race 89 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:44,560 in Chhattisgarh. Mostly grown up women wear 90 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,360 Saudi. I think just to, you know, be 91 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,400 normal like everybody else. In 1992, I just took a decision. 92 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,330 I'll only wear Saudi. And that continued till I was 93 00:05:55,330 --> 00:05:58,610 arrested. I was surprised by the the jail 94 00:05:58,610 --> 00:06:01,770 not permitting T-shirts and pants and so on. 95 00:06:02,090 --> 00:06:05,170 And later on I realized that that is because the jail has a 96 00:06:05,170 --> 00:06:10,110 concept of being feminine. And it is very concerned about 97 00:06:10,310 --> 00:06:15,190 women who dress like men, because I think it also has that 98 00:06:15,950 --> 00:06:20,350 typical stigma about lesbianism. So that is the real reason. 99 00:06:20,670 --> 00:06:23,550 And that is why they insist that either you wear Salwar Kutta or 100 00:06:23,550 --> 00:06:26,750 you wear Saadi. And because we have to wash all 101 00:06:26,750 --> 00:06:30,990 our clothes and Saadi is too difficult to do so much of 102 00:06:30,990 --> 00:06:32,750 washing, there's no space to dry it. 103 00:06:33,380 --> 00:06:36,860 So yeah, so I shifted to Salwar Kurta, and I've continued with 104 00:06:36,860 --> 00:06:38,660 that. Otherwise, for many, many years, 105 00:06:38,660 --> 00:06:43,780 I had been wearing Saudi. Why would you name the book the 106 00:06:44,020 --> 00:06:48,500 the name you have? Given from fancy yard, This was 107 00:06:48,500 --> 00:06:51,220 me looking out from fancy yard it one. 108 00:06:51,220 --> 00:06:53,620 When we went to Baikala we were in the barracks and it was 109 00:06:53,860 --> 00:06:58,020 probably we had much more opportunity to talk and discuss 110 00:06:58,020 --> 00:07:00,990 with other prisoners. But because there I'm more or 111 00:07:00,990 --> 00:07:04,390 less became a lawyer. I was writing applications and 112 00:07:04,390 --> 00:07:06,430 all that. So there's a certain ethics of 113 00:07:06,430 --> 00:07:08,750 being a lawyer. You don't talk about your cases 114 00:07:08,750 --> 00:07:12,630 to people. So that that's when my writing, 115 00:07:12,630 --> 00:07:15,710 the stories about the women stopped and my notebooks were 116 00:07:15,710 --> 00:07:19,630 only filled with you know, CR number, police station sections 117 00:07:19,630 --> 00:07:22,870 and what is to be written in the application and all that because 118 00:07:22,870 --> 00:07:24,990 we were in the in the in that single cell. 119 00:07:24,990 --> 00:07:27,510 It would be surprising. How did I get to know these 120 00:07:27,510 --> 00:07:30,290 stories at all? And that is what I've tried to 121 00:07:30,290 --> 00:07:33,570 explain in in the section about how this book came to be 122 00:07:33,570 --> 00:07:36,050 written. Which when we went for Mulaka, 123 00:07:36,050 --> 00:07:39,810 or when we went to the courts, or when we went for canteen or 124 00:07:39,930 --> 00:07:44,210 to the hospital or when we were queuing up to get the water or, 125 00:07:44,210 --> 00:07:46,650 you know, these were the occasions on which we would bump 126 00:07:46,650 --> 00:07:48,530 into these women and talk to them. 127 00:07:48,970 --> 00:07:54,370 So actually the sketches were written when I felt that I knew 128 00:07:54,370 --> 00:07:57,610 enough about a person, but it would happen over. 129 00:07:58,470 --> 00:08:02,430 Many encounters with that person and that's where there's no date 130 00:08:02,430 --> 00:08:05,750 or it's not really a diary, its gathering that and then when I 131 00:08:05,750 --> 00:08:08,830 felt I knew a woman well enough then I would write about her. 132 00:08:10,310 --> 00:08:13,710 How did you keep your connection with the outside world when you 133 00:08:13,710 --> 00:08:17,470 were in? Prison As a prisoner under the 134 00:08:17,470 --> 00:08:21,030 UAPA, we have restrictions on who can come and meet us, so it 135 00:08:21,030 --> 00:08:24,150 is only either our lawyers or blood relatives. 136 00:08:24,230 --> 00:08:26,400 They are very. Strict about that. 137 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,800 For example, people from my union could not come, so it 138 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,400 would be just lawyers and my daughter, basically, because I 139 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,280 don't have nobody else in my family really. 140 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,000 But yeah, when we went to the court. 141 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,440 Many people would come to the court to meet us, but they would 142 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:42,640 be restricted. They would not be allowed to 143 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,400 talk to us. They were kept at a distance. 144 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,440 We actually got a remarkable number of letters and postcards 145 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,640 in solidarity from all over the world. 146 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:56,120 But we were not given most of them because all letters which 147 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,440 go to the jail are censored. So actually it takes about a 148 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,400 week within the jail for those letters to be read and then 149 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,200 passed on to us. And most of these because they'd 150 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,200 say, who are these people? Unknown people are writing to 151 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,080 them. In Yedvada, I hear that many 152 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,200 people wrote to me on my birthday, but I never got those 153 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,720 letters. But in Baikala we were given 154 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,800 those letters and that was a beautiful thing. 155 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:21,800 And otherwise of course newspapers. 156 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:26,640 When we were in Yedvada, between Professor Sen and myself, we 157 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,880 would take The Indian Express and The Hindu and in Baikala we 158 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,800 would also take Mumbai Mirror. We really missed it when it 159 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,160 went. That was one of our favorite 160 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,200 newspapers of course in Baikala when we were in the barrack Then 161 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,320 there was the television also but you know how it is the 162 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,200 remote of the of the TV is with the Kambali. 163 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:51,440 So she is the one who decides which nagin serial we have to 164 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:53,840 see and which SAS bow serial we have to see. 165 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,120 Sometimes you know when there will be tea time. 166 00:09:56,120 --> 00:10:00,760 Please, please, please 500 CDTV Dekhna dhna and then put on for 167 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,120 the to see what is the. The use of the farmer's 168 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:07,320 agitation or whatever it is. So that's how we we kept 169 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:09,000 ourselves in touch with the world. 170 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,280 True stories. You have portrayed life inside 171 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,120 the prison and the harsh realities which we are aware of. 172 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,600 But more details. But tell me about yourself. 173 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:25,360 How was your journey and how were your days inside prison? 174 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,080 Did you ever lose hope? How did you manage your stress 175 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,550 when bail was rejected? I think that is just, that is me 176 00:10:34,550 --> 00:10:38,710 as a personality, that right from my young days and from the 177 00:10:38,710 --> 00:10:42,470 age of 25 or so, I've always worked in collectives. 178 00:10:42,550 --> 00:10:46,750 So I I worked with the trade union and in a collective of 179 00:10:46,750 --> 00:10:51,470 lawyers in the UCL, always with groups and always with with a 180 00:10:51,470 --> 00:10:54,790 lot of people. So it was very it was a very 181 00:10:54,790 --> 00:11:01,350 isolating experience to be in the cell and I think. 182 00:11:02,090 --> 00:11:04,650 Actually, my way of getting over what you're saying that, you 183 00:11:04,650 --> 00:11:07,570 know, how did you feel my way of getting over was writing these 184 00:11:07,570 --> 00:11:09,330 stories. I mean, this was really 185 00:11:09,330 --> 00:11:12,010 cathartic for me that I was trying to make sense. 186 00:11:12,010 --> 00:11:15,010 I was trying to reach out to these women without being able 187 00:11:15,010 --> 00:11:17,930 to really reach out to them. It is not that it was an 188 00:11:17,930 --> 00:11:20,650 unthinkable thing that happened to me, but of course when it 189 00:11:20,650 --> 00:11:22,210 happens, it is shocking initially. 190 00:11:23,130 --> 00:11:28,850 But I think the positive thing about me is that I am. 191 00:11:29,490 --> 00:11:34,490 Very conscious that even in that situation we were still much 192 00:11:34,490 --> 00:11:36,690 more privileged than most of the women around us. 193 00:11:37,690 --> 00:11:41,170 Many of them were very poor, a lot of them were uneducated, 194 00:11:41,170 --> 00:11:42,970 some of them were completely illiterate. 195 00:11:43,650 --> 00:11:46,250 Many of them had been abandoned by their families. 196 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:49,800 They didn't have proper lawyers. They didn't know what was the 197 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,760 condition of their case. And in Baikala, I had no time. 198 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:58,440 Once they got to know that, you know, Aunty is a lawyer and 199 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,560 Aunty is ready to help and ready to write the applications in 200 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:04,560 triplicate in Hindi. I didn't know that much. 201 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,400 I didn't know Marathi, so I'd write it in Hindi for them. 202 00:12:08,110 --> 00:12:10,550 And also that Auntie doesn't tell stories. 203 00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:13,430 But Ted doesn't tell tales. She doesn't gossip about the 204 00:12:13,430 --> 00:12:15,150 case. She doesn't talk about 1 205 00:12:15,150 --> 00:12:18,950 prisoner to another prisoner. So when they got this idea about 206 00:12:18,950 --> 00:12:21,590 me, they started lining up Auntie Mello. 207 00:12:21,590 --> 00:12:23,790 Please charge sheet Pardo you know please write this 208 00:12:23,790 --> 00:12:27,070 application for me. I would be busy sometime till 209 00:12:27,310 --> 00:12:30,830 12:00 at night. I was writing the applications, 210 00:12:31,150 --> 00:12:37,240 of course. The disappointment about bail 211 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,360 and all that in a way. When I came into jail, I told 212 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:46,600 myself, look, one has to just trust on friends outside that 213 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:51,520 they will get get me the best possible legal defense and one 214 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,720 just has to wait. So in that sense, I sort of 215 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,520 steeled myself for a long stay and that is why I didn't have to 216 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,720 suffer so much when bail was rejected so many times. 217 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,800 And that was deliberate. But yes, I really missed my 218 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:08,640 daughter. And I think my daughter really 219 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,560 missed me. I had come to Delhi thinking I 220 00:13:11,560 --> 00:13:14,560 need to give time and place to my daughter. 221 00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:17,120 It's a critical time in her career. 222 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,320 She needs some support. I need to earn something also to 223 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,640 put her through college. So it's ironical that that was 224 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,360 the time I was picked up. So at a time when I was acutely 225 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,160 aware that I need to give her time. 226 00:13:30,670 --> 00:13:33,830 That is exactly the time when I was taken away from her, so this 227 00:13:33,830 --> 00:13:37,710 is a bad time for her. When Sudha Bhardwad was released 228 00:13:37,710 --> 00:13:40,510 on bail, one of the photos released by a friend on social 229 00:13:40,510 --> 00:13:43,750 media showed her inside a car, smiling broadly at the camera. 230 00:13:44,070 --> 00:13:47,270 It's a smile that pops up often during the interview as well. 231 00:13:47,630 --> 00:13:50,990 Alka asked her about why even photos taken of her while she 232 00:13:50,990 --> 00:13:53,430 was being arrested captured her smiling. 233 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,880 When the situation is very bizarre, when you don't even 234 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,040 understand, you know, why are you being picked up? 235 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,520 What is happening with you? Why is this happening with you? 236 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,200 As in, my reaction is to laugh. What else can you do? 237 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:14,720 So even just as to smile and bear it, and that is what I did. 238 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:20,120 There were very rare occasions when I would feel very bad most 239 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,470 of the time when I got. Letters from my daughter. 240 00:14:23,470 --> 00:14:26,510 I would feel very bad because the letters were full of her 241 00:14:26,550 --> 00:14:30,110 sadness or loneliness, difficulties that she was 242 00:14:30,110 --> 00:14:33,790 having, and I knew that by the time I write the reply to her, 243 00:14:33,790 --> 00:14:35,430 that moment will have come and gone. 244 00:14:35,430 --> 00:14:38,750 I'm not able to comfort her. It was only on very few 245 00:14:38,750 --> 00:14:43,070 occasions that that would happen, and otherwise I would 246 00:14:43,070 --> 00:14:53,910 keep myself busy. We're back in conversation with 247 00:14:53,910 --> 00:14:57,230 trade unionist and human rights lawyer Sudha Bhardwaj, who has 248 00:14:57,230 --> 00:14:59,990 just released a book called From FASI Yard. 249 00:15:00,470 --> 00:15:03,990 In this segment, Alka speaks to Sudha Bhardwaj about her entry 250 00:15:03,990 --> 00:15:07,990 into trade unionism, what drives her activism, and what fuels her 251 00:15:07,990 --> 00:15:10,190 hope that she will get justice one day. 252 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,520 So you were born in USA, you spent your primary school days 253 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,680 in England, grown up in JNU campus and then studied at IIT 254 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,360 Kanpur before pursuing law degree. 255 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,000 How did your educational journey impacted your? 256 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,920 Apart from mathematics, I also loved history. 257 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,720 I loved literature, particularly History of the Freedom struggle 258 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:37,220 I'm extremely interested in. And that passion remains with 259 00:15:37,220 --> 00:15:40,300 me. The rigorous science background, 260 00:15:40,620 --> 00:15:44,140 which I the study, which I did in IIT Kanpur for the 261 00:15:44,140 --> 00:15:47,740 mathematics degree, I think helped me in a way logic and law 262 00:15:47,740 --> 00:15:50,660 go well together. I became a lawyer only much 263 00:15:50,660 --> 00:15:54,940 later, at the age of 40 or so, and that was because my union 264 00:15:54,940 --> 00:15:58,760 needed a lawyer and. It's difficult for workers to 265 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,640 afford a lawyer, but what helped me the most was being with 266 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:07,560 people. What you learn from being there, 267 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,160 from living with people, from struggling with people. 268 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,040 It is when you try to change something that you understand 269 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,960 most about it, that's when you you really understand how things 270 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,200 work. The theory was important, but 271 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,240 the practice was far more important. 272 00:16:23,790 --> 00:16:27,070 Highly educated person like you could have got into any foreign 273 00:16:27,070 --> 00:16:30,230 university and focused on personal financial growth. 274 00:16:30,630 --> 00:16:34,110 Why did you become a human rights activist or trade 275 00:16:34,110 --> 00:16:36,230 unionist? You are mentioned in the book 276 00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:39,990 that your parents return to India in response to the appeals 277 00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:41,910 made for nation building efforts. 278 00:16:42,270 --> 00:16:45,550 Do you have the satisfaction of continuing their legacy? 279 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:50,200 How did I come to those choices? I mean, it happened so gradually 280 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,440 and naturally that I it's difficult for me to really point 281 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,120 out exactly how and when. My parents also took choices of 282 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,120 this guy and my mother chose to return from Cambridge. 283 00:17:00,510 --> 00:17:03,830 Chose to come and set up a centre for Economic Studies and 284 00:17:03,830 --> 00:17:05,710 Planning. It was a centre of excellence 285 00:17:05,710 --> 00:17:08,510 within the the JNU. It became one of the most 286 00:17:08,510 --> 00:17:13,030 celebrated departments of economics in history in in in 287 00:17:13,270 --> 00:17:18,829 political science and economics. They were really very original 288 00:17:19,349 --> 00:17:22,910 minds working there in in that university. 289 00:17:23,310 --> 00:17:27,190 So I think all that definitely had an impact when I started 290 00:17:27,190 --> 00:17:28,630 interacting with the working class. 291 00:17:28,630 --> 00:17:30,430 That is where I think what the whole shift. 292 00:17:31,030 --> 00:17:36,390 From an academic or intellectual profession to deciding to go 293 00:17:36,390 --> 00:17:39,990 with the Peoples movement, go with the union, that I think 294 00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:41,830 that decision came to me pretty early. 295 00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:48,290 It came to me during my my period in of study in IIT Kanpur 296 00:17:48,650 --> 00:17:52,890 around the end of that. 8384 was the time when the Asiad was 297 00:17:52,890 --> 00:17:55,610 happening and all those construction work was happening 298 00:17:55,610 --> 00:17:58,730 in Delhi. And all these labourers were 299 00:17:58,730 --> 00:18:01,930 being brought from Rajasthan, from Chhattisgarh, from the poor 300 00:18:01,930 --> 00:18:06,210 rural areas, from the hinterland and being brought to construct 301 00:18:06,210 --> 00:18:10,450 all these stadia and flyovers and all that. 302 00:18:10,610 --> 00:18:14,290 There's a transformation in in. Delhi because of the virtually 303 00:18:14,290 --> 00:18:17,050 bonded labor conditions of those workers. 304 00:18:17,410 --> 00:18:20,490 And I think that was when I decided that, you know, I have 305 00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:24,090 to pick my lot in win them and and it has to be a whole time 306 00:18:24,090 --> 00:18:25,970 thing. It can't be a part time thing. 307 00:18:25,970 --> 00:18:29,450 It has to be whole time. And then I was lucky enough that 308 00:18:29,650 --> 00:18:32,610 we got introduced to Shankar Guhan Yogi. 309 00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:36,880 And then when I went to Delhi Rajaratu, I was completely 310 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:43,120 floored by it and that that Union, it was such a experience 311 00:18:43,120 --> 00:18:45,910 being part of it. It was like sitting in the lap 312 00:18:45,910 --> 00:18:49,110 of the people. It was a bustling place and so 313 00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:51,750 many experiments were being carried out and people were so 314 00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:55,350 enthusiastic about it. And there there was a hospital, 315 00:18:55,350 --> 00:18:58,710 there was schools being run by the union, there was the anti 316 00:18:58,710 --> 00:19:03,550 alcohol movement and all that. And then gradually, when it came 317 00:19:03,550 --> 00:19:07,630 to the Bhilai movement, then Neogi suggested that we should 318 00:19:07,630 --> 00:19:09,710 get involved in the trade union itself. 319 00:19:10,590 --> 00:19:13,310 Initially I thought that I will go and teach in the school there 320 00:19:13,310 --> 00:19:16,230 and so on. But then I became part of the 321 00:19:16,230 --> 00:19:19,590 union and then later the union workers told me to become a 322 00:19:19,590 --> 00:19:20,790 lawyer. So I became a lawyer. 323 00:19:21,630 --> 00:19:23,910 Did. You ever regret renouncing 324 00:19:24,430 --> 00:19:27,310 American citizenship? Never. 325 00:19:27,710 --> 00:19:29,990 Not for a moment. Never. 326 00:19:30,270 --> 00:19:33,070 See, I am very much, very much an Indian. 327 00:19:33,070 --> 00:19:35,820 My parents were Indian. Very much an Indian. 328 00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:39,660 And from becoming an urban Indian, I wouldn't say I've 329 00:19:39,660 --> 00:19:42,740 become a rural Indian. I've become very much a part of 330 00:19:42,940 --> 00:19:48,460 Chhattisgarh and of that community of workers, and I've 331 00:19:48,540 --> 00:19:52,140 interacted with workers and farmers and Adivasis from that 332 00:19:52,140 --> 00:19:54,300 area. I consider myself completely 333 00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:57,300 Chhattisgarhi. So what is the need to go to 334 00:19:57,380 --> 00:20:01,460 America or anywhere else? Do you hold any passport now? 335 00:20:01,540 --> 00:20:03,420 No. Ever since I renounced my 336 00:20:03,460 --> 00:20:05,220 citizenship, I never got a passport made. 337 00:20:05,220 --> 00:20:06,740 I didn't bother to get a passport made? 338 00:20:07,860 --> 00:20:12,180 I asked this question because we know that the numbers of people 339 00:20:12,180 --> 00:20:16,780 renouncing Indian citizenship is only growing every year today. 340 00:20:17,180 --> 00:20:20,180 Be part of nation building efforts or not? 341 00:20:21,380 --> 00:20:22,820 I don't know. It's difficult for me. 342 00:20:22,820 --> 00:20:26,100 I mean, these are personal choices, but. 343 00:20:27,330 --> 00:20:32,770 I believe that building the nation is not just the growth 344 00:20:32,770 --> 00:20:35,850 concept, which is given that you know, the corporates are making 345 00:20:35,850 --> 00:20:38,810 a lot of money, but the actual living conditions of people is 346 00:20:38,810 --> 00:20:42,090 getting more and more miserable. That is not my idea of 347 00:20:42,090 --> 00:20:44,090 development or my idea of growth. 348 00:20:44,690 --> 00:20:47,130 My idea of growth and development is when peoples 349 00:20:47,130 --> 00:20:49,650 lives become better. When they have a secure 350 00:20:49,650 --> 00:20:52,690 livelihood, when they have a decent house to live in, when 351 00:20:52,690 --> 00:20:55,490 the children can go to school, they have decent medical 352 00:20:55,490 --> 00:20:58,170 facilities. When we are able to protect the 353 00:20:58,170 --> 00:21:01,770 environment, we we at least have clean water and clean air. 354 00:21:02,250 --> 00:21:07,570 So I think those things are worth fighting for and working 355 00:21:07,570 --> 00:21:09,930 for. And and this is my country, I I 356 00:21:09,930 --> 00:21:14,700 have to work and fight here. So you started your first formal 357 00:21:14,700 --> 00:21:18,340 job at the age of 58. It went on for a couple of years 358 00:21:18,860 --> 00:21:23,420 and then three years in prison. Did you try to get employment 359 00:21:23,420 --> 00:21:29,820 after you released on bail? Well, it was at the age of 58 360 00:21:29,820 --> 00:21:32,460 and I was only lucky enough to teach for a year. 361 00:21:32,460 --> 00:21:35,140 I love teaching in the National Law University. 362 00:21:35,140 --> 00:21:37,540 I was fortunate enough to teach there. 363 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,680 And I had some marvellous students and I thoroughly 364 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,160 enjoyed teaching there. In fact, I had been given an 365 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,720 extension, so I would have probably taught for another year 366 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,840 at least, had I not been arrested after coming out. 367 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,480 I have really not tried for a formal employment because I am 368 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,400 quite aware that it will be very difficult for any university, 369 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:02,600 Oregon, any institution to take me up as an employee because of 370 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,050 this case and so on. I'm very lucky that I'm a lawyer 371 00:22:06,450 --> 00:22:09,770 and Lloyd is an independent intellectual in that sense, and 372 00:22:09,770 --> 00:22:12,930 they're sort of self-employed at the moment. 373 00:22:12,930 --> 00:22:15,570 Basically it is unions which are supporting me. 374 00:22:15,770 --> 00:22:21,170 I do legal cases for them and I'm lucky enough to be 375 00:22:21,170 --> 00:22:24,290 associated with the senior advocate for whom I'm able to 376 00:22:24,290 --> 00:22:29,570 draft cases and so on. So basically it is my legal work 377 00:22:29,570 --> 00:22:33,530 which sustains me. A person like you has social 378 00:22:33,530 --> 00:22:37,890 capital, but general assumptions or biases are that human 379 00:22:37,890 --> 00:22:40,130 activists like. You get a lot of foreign 380 00:22:40,130 --> 00:22:42,970 funding. Well, I think somebody just 381 00:22:42,970 --> 00:22:47,010 needs to look at my bank account and they'll get to know that the 382 00:22:47,010 --> 00:22:49,850 only regular money which came in was when I taught for that one 383 00:22:49,850 --> 00:22:53,850 year. And no, I have never been funded 384 00:22:53,850 --> 00:22:56,970 by anybody before. It was my union which supported 385 00:22:56,970 --> 00:22:59,490 me throughout my years in Chhattisgarh. 386 00:23:00,060 --> 00:23:04,820 Later on, to some extent, yes. My legal work, I never earned 387 00:23:04,820 --> 00:23:06,620 money. I earned a lot of friends. 388 00:23:06,780 --> 00:23:10,300 I think that is what I really earned, and that is what has 389 00:23:10,300 --> 00:23:12,340 helped me instead. I mean, that is why I'm 390 00:23:12,340 --> 00:23:14,860 surviving today. I think again, not because of 391 00:23:14,860 --> 00:23:19,300 money, but because of friends. You were saying that when you 392 00:23:19,740 --> 00:23:23,740 walked out of jail you had nothing in your bank account. 393 00:23:24,580 --> 00:23:27,860 I had nothing. That's absolutely correct. 394 00:23:28,970 --> 00:23:33,290 You have called yourself a constitution abiding person, but 395 00:23:33,530 --> 00:23:38,410 do you feel that people like you were looked up as dissidents in 396 00:23:38,410 --> 00:23:44,410 current time? See, being a dissident is not 397 00:23:44,770 --> 00:23:50,930 being anti democratic. A democracy demands dissidents 398 00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:53,770 of certain kind. For example, a democracy 399 00:23:53,770 --> 00:23:56,850 requires a Free Press, and the Free Press is a critical press. 400 00:23:57,620 --> 00:24:02,540 Democracy demands that there should be a an opposition. 401 00:24:03,380 --> 00:24:05,460 Without an opposition, you can't have a democracy. 402 00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:09,500 So certain kinds of dissidents are built into democracy. 403 00:24:09,860 --> 00:24:15,340 And I think as a lawyer, as a trade unionist, as a human 404 00:24:15,340 --> 00:24:20,420 rights activist, it's perfectly constitutional to be a dissident 405 00:24:20,420 --> 00:24:24,680 in that form. In fact, it's required in order 406 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:29,920 that you actually have a, you know, living, growing democracy. 407 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,800 So for you, what is the true meaning of freedom? 408 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,200 I think the true meaning of freedom is to be able to what 409 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:48,320 one thinks is right, to be able to be with people and what I've 410 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:54,250 done all my life. Which is be with people, be 411 00:24:54,250 --> 00:24:57,610 along with them in their fight to have a better society. 412 00:24:57,850 --> 00:25:01,290 That is my greatest freedom within whatever limitations. 413 00:25:01,290 --> 00:25:05,890 I mean, I have to be here in Mumbai and I can't go back to 414 00:25:05,970 --> 00:25:09,770 the place of my work. That's why I call it an exile. 415 00:25:10,090 --> 00:25:14,410 But Despite that, I would say within my restrictions, I'm 416 00:25:14,410 --> 00:25:16,450 still continuing with my life. In the same way. 417 00:25:17,790 --> 00:25:21,030 How do you and your daughter prepare for the future? 418 00:25:21,190 --> 00:25:26,030 Being lodged inside the jail one more time cannot be ruled out, 419 00:25:26,030 --> 00:25:29,150 right? I think this is the reality that 420 00:25:29,150 --> 00:25:32,030 we have to face. I mean I am still only out on 421 00:25:32,030 --> 00:25:34,670 bail. The trial is extending ahead of 422 00:25:34,670 --> 00:25:38,270 us, though I believe that I will be acquitted. 423 00:25:38,270 --> 00:25:42,590 But trial is yet to happen and the the judgment is yet to be 424 00:25:42,590 --> 00:25:45,790 passed. Do you ever discuss this 425 00:25:45,790 --> 00:25:48,890 possibility? My daughter doesn't like 426 00:25:48,890 --> 00:25:53,090 discussing it and I quite see why. 427 00:25:53,970 --> 00:25:59,810 I just hope that I get the time at least to help her stand on 428 00:25:59,810 --> 00:26:03,170 her own feet before such an eventuality comes. 429 00:26:04,210 --> 00:26:08,890 And I also hope that we will all be acquitted of this case. 430 00:26:09,970 --> 00:26:13,250 Do you believe that you will get justice from the system? 431 00:26:15,100 --> 00:26:19,380 I think justice and equality are two things which are very innate 432 00:26:19,380 --> 00:26:22,860 to the human being. Even if they're two very small 433 00:26:22,860 --> 00:26:26,460 children and you give one child one roti, give another child 2 434 00:26:26,460 --> 00:26:29,860 rotis, the child with one roti will throw away that one roti 435 00:26:29,860 --> 00:26:31,540 and say you give me just like that person. 436 00:26:31,980 --> 00:26:35,540 So the sense of equality and justice is very deep inside us, 437 00:26:35,740 --> 00:26:38,900 and I believe that that cannot be suppressed for long. 438 00:26:39,410 --> 00:26:43,210 Even if for some time in a system it appears that these 439 00:26:43,210 --> 00:26:47,930 these very basic fundamental emotions are being suppressed, 440 00:26:48,330 --> 00:26:53,130 it cannot go on forever. No kind of suppression, no kind 441 00:26:53,130 --> 00:26:56,530 of tyranny can last forever. It's not possible. 442 00:26:57,370 --> 00:27:02,690 So you are an optimist and. Very much I believe in, in 443 00:27:02,690 --> 00:27:05,610 humanity, I believe in people, and I think they're powerful 444 00:27:05,610 --> 00:27:08,570 enough sometime or the other to make those changes. 445 00:27:15,250 --> 00:27:18,690 Today's episode was produced by Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. 446 00:27:19,010 --> 00:27:22,330 For a daily spotlight on people, ideas and stories that matter, 447 00:27:22,570 --> 00:27:26,210 subscribe to us. We're available on TOI, Spotify, 448 00:27:26,490 --> 00:27:30,250 Apple, Google Podcasts, and all other platforms of your choice. 449 00:27:30,770 --> 00:27:35,490 For any new steps, e-mail us at TOI podcast at timesinternet dot 450 00:27:35,490 --> 00:27:35,810 in.