1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,680 From Indias largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:16,480 Times of India podcast. At least nine people were killed 3 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,080 when a bus they were travelling in was attacked by terrorists in 4 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:21,920 the Ryasi district of Jammu on the 9th of June. 5 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,880 The nine people were part of a larger group who were travelling 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,960 in the bus when it was attacked. At least thirty of those people 7 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:29,400 travelling on the bus were injured. 8 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,680 Shakir Mir, who writes on Jammu and Kashmir for TOI Plus, 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:36,200 explains what happened. So basically when we talk about 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,000 Riasi, we're talking about the the mountainous parts of Jammu, 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,440 which are collectively called the peer Punjal region. 12 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,240 They formed the the greater Himalayas that divide Kashmir 13 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:50,000 valley from Jammu and at the same time these mountain jet out 14 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:53,240 into the Pakistani side. So Ryasis is a place that is 15 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:57,080 tucked away in these mountains. So when we talk about on the 16 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,760 road on which it happened, it was a link road which led to 17 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:01,520 that highway, National Highway 144. 18 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,120 It connected two places with each other. 19 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,200 One was the Shivkhori shrine, which is the Shiva shrine in the 20 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,640 Jammu where a lot of Hindu pilgrims come to pay homage to 21 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,320 the the Katra region of the Jammu region where we know the 22 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:17,520 famous Mata Vaishno Devi shrine is located. 23 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,360 The pilgrims like close to 40 or over 40 in numbers. 24 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:24,480 But travelling in the bus which was coming down all its way down 25 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,480 to Katra region, midway through his journey, it passed through a 26 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:32,160 place which is really desolate. The roads are good, but one side 27 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:35,240 there's a deep George, there's a deep defile and on the other 28 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,680 side we see mountainous outcrops, forests and 29 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,400 everything. But this isn't entirely petrol 30 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:44,240 because Jammu is a vast region. You know, it's not possible for 31 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,640 it to be petrol throughout. Pervasive petroling is not 32 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:48,480 possible. Nobody lives there. 33 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,120 There are just towns here and scattered over here and there. 34 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,400 And it's so dense. I mean, I spoke to the officials 35 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,000 who have been serving in the Jammu region. 36 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,080 They told me that it's, the region is such a dense, the 37 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,560 vegetation is so dense that you can't even see, even in Kashmir, 38 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,520 it's possible to see through the vegetation. 39 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,480 You know, it's very sparse, but in those regions that the 40 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,600 vegetation is so thick that you can't even see after like 3 41 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,040 meters or two meters. So that topography is itself 42 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,560 conducive for militancy. You know, militants, militants 43 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:18,000 have off late realized that we can leverage this kind of 44 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,600 topography to stage attacks. Just as when the bus was driving 45 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,240 through this area, the militants have like they were waiting and 46 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,280 they were prowling and when the vehicle was approaching, they 47 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,920 have come down, They have sprayed bullets all over the 48 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:34,000 vehicle. The police officers were there 49 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,160 on the ground told me the first bullet hit the forehead of the 50 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,320 driver. So he was he was the first to be 51 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:41,640 shot and then he lost control of the bus. 52 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:45,320 The bus wheeled away from the road and directly fell into the 53 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:48,040 defile. Then the militants came again 54 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:51,000 from behind and they continue to spray bullets on the bus because 55 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,600 eyewitnesses have described how bullets continue to rain over 56 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,600 them. 11 particular eyewitness said that it was it was like a 57 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,960 relentless hail bullets that was pelting down upon the bus 58 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,640 endlessly. So it it wasn't just Milton's 59 00:03:04,640 --> 00:03:06,640 attack the bus and lost control and people died. 60 00:03:06,640 --> 00:03:10,400 They they made sure that even after the bus plunges into the 61 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,520 George, they kept firing at the bus with an intention to kill 62 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:14,920 the pilgrims, which is very clear. 63 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:18,160 The attack is one of the most dramatic attacks in Jammu, a 64 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,160 region that Shakir says has seen a spike in terror attacks over 65 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,400 the past few years. In today's episode when 66 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,880 conversation with Shakir Mir about the implications of the 67 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,480 Riasi attack and other terror attacks in the region. 68 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,560 In the past week, there have been 4 terror attacks in three 69 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,480 days in Jammu. One CRPF jawan was killed and 70 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,640 six security personnel were injured in two gun battles with 71 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,120 terrorists in the Kathua and Doda districts. 72 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,240 Shakur explains how the epicenter of these more dramatic 73 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,000 terror attacks may have shifted from Kashmir to Jammu. 74 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,720 He also explains how the terrorists involved and the 75 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:50,360 weaponry they're using has changed. 76 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,200 We started by talking about the Ryasi attack, in which the 77 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,480 militants attacked a bus. Filled with pilgrims. 78 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,440 Remember, Shakira had pointed out how it's difficult to patrol 79 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,440 the region given the terrain, but have pilgrims ever been 80 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:06,960 targeted in this manner before? So when you say that this road 81 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,600 is also not highly protected in the sense of relentless 82 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:15,000 patrolling, but is this an area that has seen a lot of attacks 83 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,040 before? Have we seen such attacks on 84 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:22,360 pilgrims of this scale before? Probably in the 90s, we have a 85 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,120 reference of massacre of the Hindu civilians ahead and there 86 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:29,320 in the Jammu region but not in the recent times except except 87 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:34,360 in April 2022 when when militants planted a sticky bomb 88 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,560 on a bus ferrying pilgrims from Qatra to Jammu region. 89 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,640 The bus went up in flames and that which resulted in the in 90 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:44,080 the death of old pilgrims because they were en route to 91 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:45,840 the Mata Vaishudhvi Shine Base camp. 92 00:04:46,280 --> 00:04:49,120 For a few days police thought that this is an accident but 93 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,360 later the investigation showed that no, that sticky bomb had 94 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,240 had been stuck to the bus and it was as a result of that bomb. 95 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,360 It was a result of that incident that people died eventually. 96 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,520 So that was the last time we have had such an incident in 97 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,520 which pilgrims were specifically targeted. 98 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,440 You spoke about the sort of link that the mountains have to 99 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,600 Pakistan and though therefore it's used as a sort of route for 100 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,360 militancy. Could you talk about terrorism 101 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:20,600 in Jammu and does the region typically see these sort of 102 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:23,400 attacks? You know when we talk about 103 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,560 overall militancy, terrorism situation in Kashmir, we talk, 104 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:28,760 we have always been talking about in reference to Kashmir 105 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,000 valley and not in Jammu. Even though in 90s we saw that 106 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,640 militancy had flared up in Jammu region. 107 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,440 But that was a brief interlude. We can say given the larger 108 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:42,400 trajectory of turmoil in Kashmir post 2019, we saw a very 109 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,480 calibrated attempt by the militant groups to escalate the 110 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,360 militant activities in the Jammu region. 111 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,480 It looks like a very calibrated, very calculated strategy on part 112 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,160 of their handlers. It started with October 2021 113 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,880 when there was a 19 day encounter. 114 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,480 It was the longest ever encounter that we have seen in 115 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:04,800 the recent times. It's a lot of surprise. 116 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,760 The security agencies, you know how how the encounter could 117 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:09,120 stretch for this long in Kashmir. 118 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:13,000 Then the most an encounter can last is like one day or 1 1/2 119 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,400 day. But 19 days it stretched 120 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,000 together 9 to 11 casualties were there from the security forces 121 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,480 side. And a lot of analysts were 122 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,160 saying that you know, this is not a good sign because because 123 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,640 this means that something is in the offing. 124 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:28,480 This is never seen before. And exactly that happened. 125 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,880 I made a, you know, I, I was because I was, I was closely 126 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,560 tracking these incidents. So I made a list of like 127 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,880 fourteen such big events that have happened since that that 128 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,440 October 2021 attack. The first was the the same case 129 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,000 sticky bomb in which the Hindu pilgrims died. 130 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:48,080 The second was the April 2022 encounter in which there was a 131 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,360 fidane attack on on Prime Minister because he was visiting 132 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,080 the region at that time. So two suspected militants were 133 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,480 killed at associated with the Jesh Muhammad were killed at 134 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,120 that time. In the same year, we saw 135 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,520 detonators were found in the Sidra region of the Punch 136 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,920 district. In March 2022, there was an IED 137 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,360 blast in Salatya choke in Udampur in which one person died 138 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,840 and 14 were injured. You know, after that we saw the 139 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,200 carnage in Dangri. Dangri is a place in in Rajouri 140 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:17,840 region. It happened on the Navy year's 141 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,240 eve in 2022 in which 7 Hindu civilians were killed by the 142 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,040 militants. And then recently there was an 143 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,560 attack on a VDG village Defence Guard member. 144 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,000 And and last year has been particularly very brutal because 145 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,640 we saw four different attacks. In each of these attacks, we saw 146 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,960 five CRPF jawans or Army jawans losing their lives, totaling 20. 147 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,680 So overall we see that there has been close to 40 security 148 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,400 related casualties since October 2021, of which 20 alone, 20 plus 149 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,160 alone have taken place in this this area, accounting for more 150 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:53,040 than 50% of total killings in 2023, which again means that the 151 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,040 violence, the theatre of violence has decisively shifted 152 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:57,680 from Kashmir to the Jammu region. 153 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,960 And in the past, I think almost a year or two bank, we've spoken 154 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,120 about, you know, how you explained to us how terrorism in 155 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,920 Kashmir had changed into these smaller, less dramatic attacks, 156 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,720 which are very focused with very focused targets. 157 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:17,000 The ones that we're seeing in Jammu, in like Syria Sea and 158 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,720 even in Kathua, they're not minor in using small weapons 159 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,320 like the ones we spoke about with regard to Kashmir, right? 160 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,240 Yeah, exactly. In fact, Indian Express did a 161 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,160 report last year in which they said that now Jammu is the site 162 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,000 of high high impact, high intensity violent targets. 163 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,640 Even though even though Kashmir may witness more militancy 164 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:38,840 related incidents in number, but the high impact, high intensity 165 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,640 targets which involve more planning, which are all more 166 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,120 ammunition, which all involve more casualties. 167 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,320 They are taking place in Jammu region rather than in Kashmir. 168 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,160 By evaluating the kind of nature of attacks that are taking 169 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,400 place, it's clear that the bulk of them are taking place in the 170 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:54,840 Jammu region rather than in Kashmir. 171 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,840 In Kashmir, we'll occasionally see 11 militant with a pistol 172 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,600 shooting at a cop or a member of minority member members or 173 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,440 somebody who's accused of being an informer or alleged informer. 174 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,080 The high intensity attacks are in the Jammu region, which 175 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,800 actually tells us a lot about the changing dynamics of 176 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:13,680 militancy in Kashmir. Shaki says that unlike in 177 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:16,440 Kashmir, the recent attacks in Jammu seem to have been carried 178 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,480 out in areas with militants, knowing that it's more difficult 179 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:21,600 to have perpetual monitoring in these regions. 180 00:09:22,560 --> 00:09:25,640 Unlike Kashmir where you see security forces on a perpetual 181 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,360 hunt for militants and eventually finding them out and 182 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,520 and encounter taking place, in Jammu it's reverse. 183 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,560 The initiative is resting with the militants. 184 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:35,840 We always see that it's the militants who initiate the 185 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:37,800 strike. When you kill a security force 186 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,720 member or when you kill a villager, when you kill a 187 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,360 Pilgrim, it will take at least given the vastness of the area 188 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:46,080 and given the roads and everything, it will take at 189 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,240 least an hour for the reinforcements to arrive. 190 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,240 Militant groups know this very well. 191 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:53,200 So they know that this is very conducive for them to wait these 192 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,280 low cost operations in the Jammu side. 193 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,560 Indriya see, at least the militants who involved escaped 194 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,560 after the attacks, but do we know anything about who was 195 00:10:04,560 --> 00:10:08,360 involved as of now? Police and security forces are 196 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:13,800 saying that it's the PAFF and TRF, these two organizations are 197 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,560 taking responsibility, but they're both the fronts for 198 00:10:16,560 --> 00:10:20,000 already established militant groups like Lashkar E Taiba and 199 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,120 Jaish E Muhammad. So Jaish is particularly the the 200 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,400 organization which is involved in these in these killings. 201 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:30,520 So, so my sources told me that it's particularly the man named 202 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:35,000 Sajid Jatt which is responsible. He's a Pakistani, he's what 203 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:37,240 security forces called FT foreign terrorist. 204 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:40,400 He has a Kashmiri wife. She's based in the Kulgam region 205 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,200 of South Kashmir. He is the one who is who is 206 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,640 remote controlling all these operations, who is sending more 207 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:48,840 and more men into into Kashmir. They're mostly Pakistani 208 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:50,680 nationals. You know, there's not a single 209 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,760 Kashmiri national who we have seen participating in these kind 210 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,800 of attacks. Last month when we saw the 211 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:01,000 attack on the IF convoy in, in, in, in Jammu, we there were 212 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,640 videos of circulating about men, random men who who who fully 213 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,520 suspected where the militants. They were clearly looking that 214 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,000 they were outsiders. It is clearly those groups 215 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,040 associated with what they call PF people's anti fascist front. 216 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,320 That is the new nomenclature that they adopted. 217 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,240 But security forces say that they are the proxies are the 218 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,480 fronts for the already established militant groups like 219 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,520 Jaish E Muhammad. So these are the ones who are 220 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:28,800 responsible for these attacks. And in Kathua in for the two men 221 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,000 who carried out the attacks, the two gunmen were also killed. 222 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,320 Is there anything that we know about them so far? 223 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:38,240 Again, we they're Pakistani nationals, it's clear from their 224 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:43,000 get up and lot of weaponry and lot of items have been seized 225 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,280 from them. The food items which have the 226 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,840 labels made in Pakistan labels, those have been recovered. 227 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,120 The bullets and ammunitions have been recovered. 228 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,040 Interestingly, M4 rifles which the US made weapon which many 229 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,200 security analysts suspect were are the same weapons that were 230 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,680 left in Afghanistan after the US withdrawal and now are being 231 00:12:01,680 --> 00:12:04,280 used by the militant groups operating in Kashmir. 232 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,000 Never before have these weapons been used against civilians or 233 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,560 against security forces. You know, police officers told 234 00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:13,360 me this is the first occasion when this US made weapon has 235 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,800 been used against security forces and against the Indian 236 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,200 nationals in in Kashmir region. In fact, there's a recent press 237 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,080 conference in which the DGP, the Director General of Police of 238 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:27,600 J&K, said that our focus is now more on the Pakistani foreign 239 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,800 militants than on the Kashmiri based militant groups because 240 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,200 because the former has outnumbered the the latter 241 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,880 because we now have more foreign militants here rather than the 242 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,280 local ones whose recruitment has come down significantly in the 243 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,480 last five years. But with the sudden speed of 244 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:51,840 attacks in Jammu specifically, there was a lull in at least the 245 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,760 reporting of such incidents during and prior to the 246 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,080 elections. Has something changed on the 247 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,840 ground? Like is this normally when we 248 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,680 see a sort of spike in attacks? What is there any explanation 249 00:13:05,680 --> 00:13:07,400 for why we're seeing the sudden surge? 250 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,800 So this has been a very in the discussion among the security 251 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,480 circles before that whether or not the militants or the 252 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,920 handlers have the wherewithal to carry out attack time with big 253 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:21,560 events in India. I have been covering insurgency 254 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:25,160 for like 5 years now. In 2022, I remember Home 255 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,200 minister, Union Home Minister Amit Shah visited Kashmir and 256 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,520 suddenly Kashmir was that. That visit happened in October 257 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,480 and throughout August, July, it was a peaceful but once the home 258 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,560 minister's visit, he was drawing close. 259 00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:40,640 There was a certain escalation of the militancy related 260 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:42,880 attacks. So somehow there's this 261 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,040 speculation that militants are able to sort of tap into their 262 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,120 networks and sort of escalate the attack to time them with the 263 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,840 big events taking place just to send a message across. 264 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,880 What the new modus operandi of militants, especially those who 265 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,400 are coming from Pakistan is that one, not to use any kind of 266 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,680 digital communications. Second, not to rely on any of 267 00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:07,320 the Overground workers. Ogws were also, which is the 268 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,920 security parlance for the militant associates, the non 269 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:13,200 combatant participants in the militant tax who do the other 270 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,640 kind of work, but don't take actual part in the militancy, 271 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,680 just help militants with food and shelter and everything. 272 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,480 So they say that don't use don't rely on the Ogws who are indexed 273 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,600 by the security forces already and don't use the digital 274 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,080 communication. So when your strategy is this is 275 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:34,280 pivoted on these two things, you can't coordinate it better. 276 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:38,440 You you will have to sort of prolong your operations and it 277 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,760 does not guarantee that you have selected this date for a 278 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,880 particular attack and the attack will take place On this date 279 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,560 only. It's not every time that the 280 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,800 militants can succeed in attacking it, just in one of the 281 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,880 10 attempts that they make that that will succeed. 282 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,760 So this is what has happened in, in Katwa, in in Ryazi. 283 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,240 And Shankar, finally, could you talk about the worries with this 284 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:03,160 sudden jump in attacks and has there been any visible change in 285 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,400 policy in the region because of these attacks? 286 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,640 So I don't think there isn't going to be any change in 287 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,720 policy. In fact, it it suits the 288 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,880 political messaging of the of the Prime Minister that that he 289 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,960 will sort of give it back to the to the militant groups and their 290 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:19,840 handlers. So I don't know what will happen 291 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,080 what how the Indian security forces are going to respond to 292 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,360 this. Typically what we expect is that 293 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,240 they will ramp up the operations, the search 294 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,040 operations and upon being found, they will they will execute the 295 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,360 militants who are responsible for this, which has happened 296 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,760 previously. So what we have seen in the last 297 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,200 five years is that sustained clampdown in Kashmir on what, 298 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,680 what the security forces described as the terror 299 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:45,320 ecosystem in which we have arrests, raids, banning of the 300 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,520 outlawing of the large number of groups continuously people 301 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,640 associated whoever some kind of past are being dismissed from 302 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,760 the garment service, their passports are being denied. 303 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:58,000 So this sustained clampdown as such remilitarization of Kashmir 304 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,080 at a lot of places. So this sustained clampdown has 305 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,640 sort of put pressure on the militant groups in Kashmir to 306 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:05,640 operate. So what they are doing is that 307 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,760 they are they are making a strategy. 308 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,840 You know, they are ratcheting up the attacks in Jammu region, 309 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,800 they're escalating the, the violence in the Jammu region so 310 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,600 that they can pin down the Indian forces in those areas so 311 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,680 they can drive away all the attention from Kashmir into 312 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:21,800 those areas. And then what happens that will 313 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,560 that will slacken the security grip on Kashmir. 314 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,840 You know, this is the vision in mind to slacken the security 315 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,240 grip in Kashmir so that things could be escalated in Kashmir as 316 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,080 and when it appears conducive to the militant handle list. 317 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,960 So this is the larger what security analyst here suspect 318 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,640 could be the larger game plan in in trying to make Jammu the new 319 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:47,920 hotbed of insurgency. Today's episode was produced by 320 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:52,440 Jayaraj Singh and Sahil Gupta. For a daily spotlight on people, 321 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,520 ideas and stories that matter, subscribe to us. 322 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,680 We're available on the Times of India website, Spotify, Apple, 323 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,760 Amazon, or wherever else you get your podcast. 324 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,640 For any new steps of feedback, mail me at 325 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:08,640 arungeorge@timesgroup.com.