1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:04,680 From India's largest newsroom, I'm Arun George and this is the 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:19,960 Times of India podcast. The United Nations Climate 3 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:23,440 Change Conference of COP 28 in Dubai ended with delegates 4 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,640 applauding the deal that they had achieved after days of 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,000 uncertainty. Nations participating at the 6 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,880 event agreed that global greenhouse gas emissions need to 7 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:36,280 be cut 43% by 2030 compared to 2019 levels, and admitted that 8 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,080 nations were off track from earlier promises that had been 9 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,560 made. As per the agreement, nations 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,120 will take actions towards a tripling of renewable energy 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,520 capacity and a doubling of energy efficiency improvements 12 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,920 by 2030. Nations will also increase 13 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:52,120 efforts to phase down the use of coal power. 14 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,600 Nation said they will try phasing out inefficient fossil 15 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,200 fuel subsidies and other measures to move away from using 16 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,280 fossil fuels. That bit about fossil fuels was 17 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,720 at the center of controversy even before the start of COP 28. 18 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:09,400 A BBC report had said Abu Dhabi was working to sign oil deals 19 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,880 with nations while they attended COP 28 in Dubai. 20 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,360 A leaked letter showed that a group of oil producing nations 21 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,880 were urged to vote against moving away from the use of 22 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,000 fossil fuels like oil and natural gas. 23 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,640 Before the applause at the end of the summit, a negotiator for 24 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,920 Samoa, one of the worst hit nations in the world, pointed 25 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,680 out that not enough progress had been made in Dubai. 26 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:34,120 We have come to the conclusion that the cost correction that is 27 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,560 needed has not been secured. We have made an incremental 28 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:43,400 advancement over business as usual when what we really needed 29 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,680 is an exponential step change in our actions and support. 30 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:51,520 In today's episode, we look at what has been achieved in Dubai 31 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,560 and whether it's enough given the very real threat of climate 32 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,640 change in our lifetimes. Our guest is Aditya Bahadur, 33 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,280 who's been on the show before. Aditya is chair of the Research 34 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,520 and strategy team and principal researcher at the International 35 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,440 Institute for Environment and Development, or IIED. 36 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,520 We started by asking him how he viewed the summer and delegate 37 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,800 statement that not enough had been achieved. 38 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,040 Aditya, who's seen plenty of cop meetings, says despite all the 39 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,760 cynicism, there is some reason for cheer. 40 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,120 People like me who've been at it for a long time feel like 41 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:26,560 there's some reason to be cheerful. 42 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,480 Of course we haven't gone the entire distance in terms of 43 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,160 putting science front and center, but we've travelled 44 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,320 quite a lot to get here. And I say that for a couple of 45 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:41,480 reasons. One is the emphasis on the 46 00:02:41,640 --> 00:02:43,240 transitioning out of fossil fuels. 47 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:45,840 I think acknowledged that there's a science base for what 48 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,400 we're trying to do. So I we can't say that science 49 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,320 was being ignored entirely. However, what one needs to 50 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:55,520 recognize is that a cop process is a political process, not a 51 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,760 scientific process. So there's always give and take 52 00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:00,080 and there's always room to do more. 53 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,240 So I think science was acknowledged. 54 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,640 Maybe not to the optimal degree, but there's reason to be 55 00:03:04,640 --> 00:03:07,560 careful. But Aditya Bahadur also admits 56 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,480 that there was a massive shortcoming in the final 57 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:14,120 agreement. Where I feel very disappointed, 58 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,360 where I feel like scientific insights are being ignored, is 59 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,520 on adaptation, which is the field of work to help the 60 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,320 vulnerable people deal with the impacts of climate change that 61 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,720 we are facing here and now. And overall, there is consensus 62 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,520 amongst all of us who work on climate adaptation. 63 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:37,280 But not enough was done to recognize the immense amount of 64 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,040 damage that people are suffering at the moment. 65 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,160 And not enough money and political will was mobilized to 66 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:43,720 help people adapt to climate change. 67 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:49,160 One thing that a lot was made of with COP 28, and it's it came 68 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,600 before COP 28 began. It was happening during COP 28. 69 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,320 COP 28 was being in a held in a state where the chief revenue 70 00:03:56,320 --> 00:04:00,120 source is fossil fuels. That's the case with COP 29 as 71 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:02,920 well, where people are pointing out that Azerbaijan is not 72 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,200 exactly going to support tuning our fossil fuels. 73 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,760 So how do you view then this final declaration on fossil 74 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,200 fuels? I think it's a very substantial 75 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,560 game and I feel like we need to acknowledge that. 76 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,279 And the transitioning away is a very positive development. 77 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,960 Ideally it should have been phasing out, there's no doubt 78 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,040 about that. But this is a messy political 79 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:30,920 process that's give and take, and the fact that we've settled 80 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:33,120 on transitioning away I think is great. 81 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,960 The thing with fossil fuels is, especially in the West, you are 82 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,480 now seeing more and more intense protests even in during Corp, 83 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,080 that you need to end the use of fossil fuel. 84 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:49,560 Why is it so difficult for us to accept that we need to phase out 85 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,000 fossil fuels? Is there no way it can be 86 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,280 accepted quickly enough? Foundation of the modern global 87 00:04:56,280 --> 00:04:59,760 economy is fossil fuel. Even I sometimes when I think 88 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,320 about fossil fuel, I think about fuel that we put in our cars. 89 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:06,600 But it's so much more than that. It's the plastic that we 90 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,160 consume. You know, there's every part of 91 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:13,240 our own system is linked very closely to fossil fuels. 92 00:05:13,280 --> 00:05:15,960 Our modern way of life is closely in blind with 93 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,960 prostitute. All our infrastructure is built 94 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,400 around the use of fossil fuels. So it is about recalibrating the 95 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,120 very fiber of how we live our daily life moment to moment. 96 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,680 And I think that kind of a shift takes time and takes a lot of 97 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:35,000 political wins. The other dimension of it is 98 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,440 lots of very strong economic interests linked to the use of 99 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,920 fossil fuels and linked to those economic interests of political 100 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,760 interests. And unless we can figure out how 101 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,080 to change incentives, we're never going to make the progress 102 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,000 that, you know, this is what makes it too hard. 103 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:55,440 And while scientific clarity on the fact that we are all driving 104 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,160 towards literally driving towards a Cliff edge where we're 105 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,680 going to reach environmental tipping points is 1 very strong 106 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:06,040 incentive to move away from it. I think we need to develop 107 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,680 alternative approaches to supporting the modern economic 108 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,600 way of life that is happening slowly and until that gathers 109 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,640 momentum, I think this is going to continue being a problem so. 110 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,360 Why is a consensus on? What seems? 111 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,880 To be a problem that's here and now, so difficult to achieve, 112 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,480 there seems to be a huge problem. 113 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,840 Like, it's almost like the pandemic that you sort of hit 114 00:06:29,840 --> 00:06:33,280 emergency stations. And yet over here we seem to 115 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:36,840 move at a sort of glacial pace. Is this how we've always been? 116 00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:41,160 And this is perhaps how we'll see it go even in the future. 117 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,600 Yeah, I wish I had a satisfactory answer to that 118 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:46,760 question. The only thing that I can say 119 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,280 one is that I really think progress has been made. 120 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,840 If one looks at, you know, where we are on some of these very 121 00:06:54,840 --> 00:06:58,560 critical agendas and basically acknowledging that we have to 122 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:00,680 transition away from fossil fuels permanently, that was 123 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,120 unthinkable earlier. The second thing that I can only 124 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,320 think about is why it's so difficult is because there's so 125 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,480 many political and economic complexities that are tied into 126 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:12,880 what we need to do to deal with the impacts of climate change. 127 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,440 You know, changing the modern way of life that is 128 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,920 intrinsically bound to the use of fossil fuels includes ships 129 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:22,960 on so many fronts simultaneously. 130 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,080 That just cannot happen as fast as we need it to happen. 131 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,120 So I think frustration is justified because we have a 132 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,760 limited time and a limited carbon budget that we are 133 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,560 blowing with alacrity at the moment. 134 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:40,400 And I certainly don't agree that we don't have any examples of 135 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:43,920 progress being made on other similar fronts with the scale 136 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,800 and urgency needed. Beginning with the ozone crisis 137 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:51,800 is a positive case study that we need to learn that was dealt 138 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,720 with and has largely been solved. 139 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,440 And it was, well, nothing is as complex as dealing with climate 140 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,360 change on a global scale, but it was comparable in terms of the 141 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:03,960 cooperation needed by the kind of economic and political 142 00:08:03,960 --> 00:08:07,000 interests that needed to align to agree on the monetary 143 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,920 protocol that has played a massive role in plugging the 144 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:12,920 ozone hole over the last few decades. 145 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,200 So yeah, I mean, sorry for that wishy washy answer, but that's 146 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,920 the best that I can give you. Another major part of the COP 28 147 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,720 agreement is the mention of energy transition away from 148 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,800 coal, as well as introducing greater energy efficiency. 149 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:30,000 While there have been criticisms of these provisions as being too 150 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,960 vague, we asked Aditya Badur what he thought of this part of 151 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,960 the agreement. I think that clear 152 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,120 acknowledgement that we need to triple renewable energy capacity 153 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:44,120 and double energy efficiency improvements over the next seven 154 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,320 years, I think it's a pretty categorical and a pretty 155 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,560 important step forward. I'm sure others in an ideal 156 00:08:51,560 --> 00:08:53,920 world would like much more, but we have to acknowledge where we 157 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,520 are and where they're going to. So I would not concede that it's 158 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,400 been big in terms of renewable energy. 159 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,920 Yes, it's an expansion of the use of solar, wind, certain 160 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,640 kinds of hydroelectric power as well. 161 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:11,880 And in terms of energy efficiency, it's about 162 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,160 increasing it from 2% to 4% annually by 20-30 energy 163 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,520 efficiency simply, I'm sure there's a technical definition 164 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,880 out there, but it's simply about trying to do the same thing by 165 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,960 using less energy. So light up a room to the tune 166 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,160 of 100 Watt bulb and in canvassing bulb but do it with 167 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,120 whatever 8 watts or something that an LED bulb does. 168 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,720 The one part of the final agreement that Aditya Bhadur is 169 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,160 critical about is the funding to adapt to climate change and to 170 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,320 deal with its effects. India, like many other nations, 171 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,320 is estimated to be losing lives and economic growth due to 172 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,720 climate linked events like heat waves, droughts, floods and 173 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,240 cyclones. We asked Aditya Bhadur about his 174 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,200 views on climate change linked finance, given that a fund for 175 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,480 loss and damage due to climate change has been created at COP 176 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:04,400 28. So where my it's optimism falls 177 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:09,360 away in on the climate finance story where I think the COP has 178 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,240 given me no reason to see the glass as half full or very 179 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:15,120 little reason, at least less than the other things. 180 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,760 With all agreed that rich countries need to provide $100 181 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,640 billion a year, when nowhere near that. 182 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,480 An extremely dodgy, highly spurious calculation puts the 183 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,000 2021 figure at 89 billion, but which has been by and large 184 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,280 criticized by all serious players. 185 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:38,080 A more accurate figure I think is around the 25 billion mark 186 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,240 which is 1/4 or what has been agreed. 187 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:45,840 Now, The funny thing is that even as this promise has not 188 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,080 been met, what we need to deal with the kind of climate change 189 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,880 that we're facing has massively increased. 190 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:57,600 And by some estimates, it stands with something like $800 billion 191 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,520 a year. And this is for reducing 192 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,600 greenhouse gases and helping people adapt. 193 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:07,200 For adaptation alone, the figure is something within the range of 194 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,160 200 to $400 billion a year. And just to put that in 195 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:16,880 perspective, only 200 million also have been pledged to the 196 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,520 adaptation fund, which is one of a one very important fund. 197 00:11:20,680 --> 00:11:24,200 So we are kind of nowhere near the kind of money that's needed. 198 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:29,400 And even if you include the $700 million that has been notionally 199 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,760 pledged for the loss and damage fund, that's nowhere near what 200 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,200 we need. And one must remember that the 201 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,400 $700 million isn't fresh and additional money. 202 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:42,400 It is redistributed largely from within the same envelope of 203 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,080 money that countries were making available to deal with climate 204 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,680 change. Despite science indicating that 205 00:11:47,680 --> 00:11:50,600 human activity is contributing to global weather changes, 206 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,520 there's still no shortage of scepticism given the changes 207 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,320 needed in our lifestyles to deal with climate change. 208 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,400 Aditya Bhador admits that he's encountered the skepticism 209 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,160 himself, but says there's now no escaping the potential impacts 210 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,000 of climate change. You know, oftentimes people come 211 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,520 up to me and say the world has existed for billions of years 212 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,840 when there was much more carbon. It'll exist, I said. 213 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,360 Yes, of course the world will continue to exist, but it just 214 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,600 won't have human beings in it. So what will Aditya Bhadur be 215 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,840 watching for in COP 29, which will be held in Azerbaijan next 216 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,800 year? Unsatisfactory progress was made 217 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,560 on agreeing on a global goal for climate adaptation, Just as we 218 00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:33,800 have the critical thresholds of two degree rise and 1.5° rise. 219 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,960 On the mitigation part, we don't really have any comparable 220 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,720 target that the global community is working towards an 221 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,120 adaptation. Not much progress on this was 222 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:45,680 made at this call, so we'd like to see some kind of a 223 00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:47,800 substantial agreement happening around that. 224 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,000 The second thing is we would like to see more detail on how 225 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,760 this loss and damage fund the $700 million that can agree how 226 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,720 that's going to operate when money is going to be 227 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,800 distributed, who is going to be eligible for it. 228 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:05,320 I'd like to see that number go up overall in the next cup. 229 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,160 I think climate finance needs to be front and center and this not 230 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:11,280 only includes enhancing the quantity of climate finance, 231 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,320 which is ruefully inadequate at the moment, but also much more 232 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,800 agreement and progress on the quality and nature of this 233 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,560 finance. For instance, at the moment it's 234 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:25,600 widely acknowledged that a lot of the finance goes to national 235 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,000 level, actors, institutions, ministries, etcetera, whereas 236 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,600 the people who are suffering most from climate change are at 237 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,800 the local level, at the village level for instance. 238 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:36,520 And money really doesn't reach these people. 239 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:39,840 So we would like to see progress on new mechanisms through which 240 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,600 local actors and institutions can receive the financing and 241 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,840 the decision making ability to withstand climate change. 242 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:50,280 Like you said, you've seen it over 2 decades. 243 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,560 How is it to be looking at the science of it and be looking at 244 00:13:55,560 --> 00:14:00,280 the political progress of it when you know it is proceeding 245 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,160 this incrementally? Given you look at things as 1/2 246 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:07,280 glass full, when you view 20 years of it, do you still view 247 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,320 it as half glass full? I still do, of course. 248 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,320 I'm not trying to paper over the fact that we're not taking 249 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,640 action as urgently as we need to, but it was inconceivable 250 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,120 even a few years ago that the countries of the world would 251 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:24,640 come together to jointly agree on transitioning away from 252 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,400 fossil fuels, the kind of entrenched positions that 253 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,960 existed in these deliberations. Only a few years ago, it was 254 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,240 inconceivable. In this COP we have seen a clear 255 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,520 commitment to transition away from the use of fossil fuels 256 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,200 over the next few decades, which I think is a massive achievement 257 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,280 anywhere you look at it. Of course we can acknowledge 258 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:47,320 that the language around transitioning away isn't as hard 259 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,720 or as scientific as we would like, but it is a massive step 260 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,400 change. So I still maintain my position 261 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:58,960 as a glass half full person and want to reinstate my faith in 262 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:03,880 the very complex multilateral process and this form of messy 263 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,880 cooperation that's needed between nations to arrive at the 264 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:12,880 path forward. Today's episode was produced by 265 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:17,440 Jayaraj Singh and Sahil Gupta. For a daily spotlight on people, 266 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,240 ideas, and stories that matter, subscribe to us. 267 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,400 We are available. On TOI, Spotify, Apple, Google 268 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,080 Podcast and all other platforms of your choice For any new 269 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:32,480 steps, e-mail us at TOI Podcast at timesinternet dot in.