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From India's largest newsroom, 
I'm Arun George and this is the 

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Times of India podcast. 
Ji meye gali metho do tin salsa 

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ratti pariyo Lok meghar P/E nai 
bulati thi gali me baat Ji 

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tacheshho. 
Is talking to Ty Plus's Alka 

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Dukkar about recently having 
invited her neighbors over for a

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meal and a chat. 
That might not sound like much, 

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but the campaign that Rinku 
Singh is part of is a unique 

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one. 
Alka spoke with multiple people 

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in Mumbai who are participating 
in the campaign that's called 

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Merigar Aketo Dekho, which aims 
to get people to meet people 

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from other communities. 
Shabnam Hashmi, who heads the 

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organization that came up with 
the campaign. 

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Explains the idea behind Merigar
Aketo Dekho to Alka. 

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You see the kind of hatred that 
we have been seeing all around 

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us and we have been toying with 
various ideas. 

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One is that this is not a new 
idea. 

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We had experimented it earlier 
at a very small level, but the 

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basic idea was to somehow fight 
the prejudices and the 

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preconceived notions which 
exist. 

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And it was very clear that when 
people do not meet each other, 

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then it is very easy to spread 
hatred or spread stereotypes 

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about them. 
So we were thinking of how to 

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bring people together. 
The usual method is that you do 

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this interfaith prayers, which 
usually do not end up in 

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anything. 
The idea of entering a house and

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looking at how people live, I 
mean, I found it very 

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interesting and I thought if we 
are able to send families to 

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meet each other. 
Then all those things that we 

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get on our WhatsApp, for 
example, all Muslims having four

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wives and 25 children, that 
would vanish the moment somebody

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enters a house. 
There was a lot of debate once I

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discussed it with other people 
because they wanted a much 

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shorter name and not Meregar 
Aketo Dekho. 

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I thought that Aketo Dekho was 
very important because it says 

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that you know, you have 
preconceived. 

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Notions about me, who I am, but 
at least come and see. 

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In today's episode, Shabnam 
Hashmi is in conversation with 

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Alka Dupkar and me about the 
campaign that has seen people 

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across the country sign up for 
it. 

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She explains how the campaign 
works and why they aren't 

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targeting hardline elements of 
religions. 

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She also explains why food is at
the heart of the campaign, then 

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hopes to sway the opinions of 
those participating in it. 

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Alka started by asking about how
the campaign works. 

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Once guest family and post 
family are decided that we are 

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going to meet, what happens 
there? 

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Exactly? 
How many people are signed up 

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for this camp? 
We had formed committees in 28 

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states, speaking to people and 
friends and organizations over 

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phones and zoom and to some 
states. 

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I also travelled everywhere. 
It is not happening as we would 

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want this to happen. 
What happens is very simple once

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two families meet. 
There is maybe initial few 

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moments when you feel awkward, 
but after that there is a 

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chemistry which kicks in and 
they could be talking about 

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anything. 
They could be discussing food or

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culture or clothes or childrens 
education or domestic violence 

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or even politics. 
One doesnt know. 

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And the responses have been 
fantastic of people who have 

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gone and and met a family for 
the first time of another caste 

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or another religion or another 
region. 

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A lot of people have told us 
that it was very important 

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experience for them and it 
helped them overcome their 

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preconceived notions and a lot 
of anxieties also like a couple 

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had come both doctors, senior 
people. 

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The wife was very hesitant to 
come to Jamia because the way 

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Jamia has been projected all 
over, so she was not sure 

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whether something might happen, 
not with the family but with the

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area itself. 
So after coming there, she was 

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very happy that it helped her 
overcome all those fears. 

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What is the target proof for 
this camp? 

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The target group it is, frankly.
Everyone except the hardcore 

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because we have limited time. 
Nobody can change the way I 

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think because I am a hardcore 
secular person. 

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So if the RSS or the Jamaat 
Islami or any other Muslim 

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fundamentalist organization 
wants to change the way I think.

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They won't succeed. 
Similarly, we had decided that 

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we are not going to waste our 
time on either the Qatar Muslims

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or the hardcore Hindutva people.
So our target group was 

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fanciters, ordinary people who 
are swayed away by the kind of 

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propaganda that comes on 
television and on WhatsApp 

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messages. 
But otherwise they have nothing 

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against each other. 
They have always lived together.

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And after listening to this 
podcast, 1 needs to participate 

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in this campaign. 
Then what should they do? 

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We have a website for this 
campaign called 

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meregaraketodeko.com. 
People are directly registering 

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their and anybody who wants to 
participate can register their 

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name. 
Every 2-3 days we check the list

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and then depending on which 
state they belong to, we connect

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them to the state coordinators 
to help them find a family where

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they can go and meet. 
Visiting areas where never ever 

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they've been like in Dalit 
dominated area or Muslim 

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dominated area. 
Why it is important? 

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For example, in Kach in Gujarat,
there is this Rabari community. 

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They mainly work with cows. 
They are. 

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People who are also called 
Malhari's, they look after 

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livestock. 
Malhari's are both Hindus and 

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Muslims. 
They do business together but 

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they had never been to each 
other's homes. 

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So it's part of this campaign. 
The team in Gujarat worked with 

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them and convinced them to visit
each other's home. 

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Similarly in Surendranagar in 
Gujarat. 

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Number of upper caste people 
went to Dalit families and had 

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tea together. 
In Delhi, we had there is a 

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place called Jaitpur Extension. 
So we had over 20 women from an 

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organization who came there and 
went to Muslim families for the 

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first time. 
Probably they had never been to 

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a Muslim area. 
They had never been to Muslim 

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households. 
Stories are coming from from 

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Maharashtra, from Karnataka, 
from Telangana, from all across 

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India. 
We have not touched Manipur 

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because of the present situation
there. 

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But even in Northeast, in Assam,
in Nagaland, in Mizoram, not 

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many but some interactions have 
happened. 

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The response of people who have 
been to each others homes or 

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organized it in other ways, it 
has been very good. 

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But I feel that it needs to 
expand a lot more to make any 

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substantial difference in the 
overall situation. 

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Because on 15th August we have 
approximately 50,000 people 

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participated. 
That might look a big number, 

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but if we compare it to India, 
it's a very small number. 

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So there is a need to expand and
find the possibilities of 

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reaching out to more people, 
more groups. 

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Is this a? 
Political campaign. 

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Everything that you do is 
politics. 

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Everything that you do, there is
a politics of keeping quiet and 

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let things happen. 
And there is a politics of 

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intervening to stop. 
When you talk about fighting 

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hatred, there is a politics to 
it because organizations and 

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political parties who are 
spreading hatred, they are doing

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politics. 
So it's not political in the 

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sense of that you are doing it 
for a political party. 

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No, but for safeguarding the 
diversity, the cabinet harmony 

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of this country and safeguarding
as a result of that the 

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constitution of this country. 
There is politics to it. 

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There's politics of peace and 
harmony and love. 

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We have done some very 
interesting campaigns earlier 

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also, but this has been one of 
the few campaigns which has 

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resonated so much with ordinary 
people because this has direct 

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connection with the ground. 
This is not abusing anyone or 

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calling names. 
This is just trying to bring 

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communities together. 
And once people come together, 

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then it's not only one meeting, 
then they become friends 

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forever. 
And sometimes those 

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relationships continue for 
years. 

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So it's a very innovative way I 
think of fighting hatred and 

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fighting prejudices, not only 
communal hatred but also biases 

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based on caste. 
We have also said that, you 

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know, visit a family which is 
not of your religion, caste or 

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sexual orientation, so even. 
The kind of discrimination that 

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the LGBTQI communities feel, if 
we are able to expand it further

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then there would be a difference
in peoples perception about each

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other. 
So how long do you plan to 

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continue this campaign? 
You see we have right now said 

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till 30th of January, which is 
Gandhis martyrdom day, but we 

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hope that. 
If it lasts till 30th January, 

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then organically it will grow. 
People will see the use of such 

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a campaign. 
Nobody wants to live in tension 

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and with hatred, so I think it 
will grow on its own. 

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Shanti Iyer's husband is a 
temple priest and they 

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participated in the campaign. 
She explained to Alka why food 

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is a crucial ingredient for 
stronger ties. 

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Sabse Jada kahani sei pyaar 
padta ye sabko pyaar pyaar se 

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kana banao tabhi achala gegao 
kana bhi ghar kao kaambi kisi 

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ko. 
B de NAO PR. 

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See across society. 
And yet this campaign challenges

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that by asking you to visit 
another person's home. 

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And most of the people that Alka
spoke to talk of consuming food 

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at the other person's house and 
justice, finding out that it is 

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exactly what I eat or things 
like that. 

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Could you talk about why you're 
focused on this aspect? 

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One is that what is projected in
the media and what is used to 

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polarize is really not the 
situation on the ground. 

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If you talk to the bucks, they 
will say all Hindus are 

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vegetarians, which is nonsense. 
You know large number of Hindus 

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are not Dalits are not, tribals 
are not, despite all the efforts

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done by the Sangh Parivar. 
But as part of this, we are 

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telling every family that if you
know, if you are a Muslim and a 

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Hindu family is coming to your 
house, just ask them in advance 

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if they're vegetarians, if you 
are offering dinner or lunch, if

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you're offering tea, it's fine, 
then it doesn't matter. 

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Lot of Hindu families are going 
and they are relishing non 

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vegetarian food in in Jamia and 
in Shahid Bagh and and in many 

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other areas across India. 
So food is definitely a uniting 

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factor. 
However hard they try to use it 

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as something which polarizes, it
doesn't because ultimately the 

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tastes are same and then people 
end up. 

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Sharing recipes and talking to 
each other as they say that if 

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you want to keep somebody happy,
keep their stomach filled. 

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How optimistic are you about a 
campaign like this? 

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A big challenge in this is that 
we are mainly working through 

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civil society networks and not 
everyone is able to understand 

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the depth of this campaign. 
They are so used to organizing 

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programs in public spaces. 
The name is that mere gharaki to

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Dekho, But programs are still 
happening in public places. 

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Or they are sending their own 
teams. 

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Like one organization sends six 
people, they go and visit the 

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homes. 
That is not the idea. 

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This requires a lot of hard work
because you need to go to an 

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area, convince people to open 
their homes, then find families 

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to visit their homes. 
This requires a lot of 

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coordination. 
This doesn't require any money. 

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But this kind of hard work, not 
everyone is used to doing this. 

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It is taking a lot of time to 
explain it to people, how to do 

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it and why it is important. 
You also spoke of how with this 

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campaign you don't want to reach
out to the hardline elements 

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because you don't believe you 
can change their minds. 

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But then how does one get 
through to the hardline 

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elements, given they are as 
influential as they are? 

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How do we change their minds 
about these things then? 

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See, that's a very long process 
Right now, if we look at the 

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challenge that is in front of us
is to ensure that the kind of 

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attacks which are coming on 
democracy and democratic 

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structures and they're using the
tool of polarizing people, there

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is a large section of fence 
sitters. 

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Who gets swayed away by all 
kinds of things which are told 

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to them if we are able to reach 
out to them as first step? 

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I think that is very important 
because if there is a 

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possibility of change it is it 
will happen because of the fence

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it does Realizing that you know 
they are being used to spread 

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this hatred and not think about 
what's happening in the country.

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Hardliners are very difficult to
change because it is 

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intoxication for. 
Maybe 20-30 forty years. 

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It's not easy to do that, so 
maybe later stage one can think 

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of how to do it, but I I really 
don't have any answers for that 

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right now. 
How easy is it to change a 

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person's mind on a subject like 
this where there is an inherent 

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bias? 
Your bias is fed almost daily. 

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How do you change that? 
You see, it's not very difficult

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00:15:09,730 --> 00:15:12,980
also frankly. 
We started another started in 

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2003 and we started with doing 
residential camps on democracy, 

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secularism and in every camp we 
had about 150 young people. 

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We were able to convince at 
least 80% of them over seven 

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00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:35,660
days using lectures, getting 
very good academicians, showing 

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films. 
We used a lot of films you are 

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00:15:38,820 --> 00:15:42,100
able to make. 
People do understand after the 

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second day you will see their 
faces change and their eyes 

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00:15:45,540 --> 00:15:49,060
start sparkling because they 
have heard certain things for 

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00:15:49,060 --> 00:15:52,220
the first time. 
But the problem is that our 

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00:15:52,220 --> 00:15:57,940
reach is very limited because we
can reach 100 people over seven 

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00:15:57,940 --> 00:16:01,180
days. 
They can reach probably 70,000 

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00:16:01,180 --> 00:16:05,460
people through their machinery. 
So it is not difficult to change

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00:16:05,460 --> 00:16:09,480
the. 
Problem is having resources, 

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both financial and physical 
resources to be able to do that.

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You spoke about the youth just 
now and with this campaign the 

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focus is on the sort of family 
unit. 

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How does one reach them with 
this message? 

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We are trying to reach out to 
schools and colleges also. 

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In fact, that's also very 
interesting. 

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I was invited to a school to 
speak about this campaign and 

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00:16:38,070 --> 00:16:42,150
the students were so lively and 
they asked all kinds of 

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00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:45,630
questions. 
But later on the school got back

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00:16:45,630 --> 00:16:49,790
to me and they said if you had 
said students, they would have 

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00:16:49,790 --> 00:16:52,550
come. 
But since you said families to 

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00:16:52,550 --> 00:16:55,190
visit families, there's a lot of
resistance. 

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00:16:55,470 --> 00:16:58,870
There's a lot more resistance in
the middle classes than. 

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00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,040
In among the poor or the lower 
middle classes. 

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00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,599
So again, not a very easy task, 
but we are trying whatever we 

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00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:08,280
can. 
You see the other thing is that 

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this whole campaign is working 
on zero resources because Anhat 

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00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,839
doesn't have any resources. 
Never had because in 2014 RFCRA 

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00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:21,160
was cancelled even. 
I don't know if you have seen 

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00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,960
our campaign song. 
That campaign song is 

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00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,440
professionally recorded, 
professionally sung. 

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00:17:27,970 --> 00:17:34,010
But it has been done all pro 
bono mere khar aketo dekho 

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00:17:35,930 --> 00:17:43,010
mohabbat he mohabbat hai, Aman 
hai tusti. 

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00:17:45,970 --> 00:17:48,170
So everything is being done pro 
bono. 

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00:17:48,170 --> 00:17:51,970
And there are a lot of things. 
If one had money, you could push

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00:17:51,970 --> 00:17:55,090
it on social media here. 
It'll reach out to a lot more 

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00:17:55,090 --> 00:17:56,970
people than it is reaching out 
right now. 

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00:17:57,910 --> 00:18:00,870
We recently had a guest on the 
show who said that something 

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00:18:00,870 --> 00:18:05,190
like communal hate may not stop 
economic growth or progress, but

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00:18:05,190 --> 00:18:08,430
what it will do is make it very 
lopsided. 

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00:18:08,790 --> 00:18:11,750
How do you see it playing out? 
What for you is the worst case 

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00:18:11,750 --> 00:18:12,390
scenario? 
It. 

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00:18:13,470 --> 00:18:15,910
Will very deeply affect the 
economic growth. 

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00:18:16,110 --> 00:18:18,510
If somebody thinks that it 
won't, it's a mistake. 

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00:18:18,830 --> 00:18:25,950
Just 2-3 days of unrest in new 
in Haryana, all the Gurgaon had 

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00:18:25,990 --> 00:18:31,180
come to a stop. 
So if this kind of constant 

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00:18:31,780 --> 00:18:34,820
communal clashes are happening 
or communal hatred is spreading,

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00:18:35,540 --> 00:18:38,820
it is not possible for any 
economic growth. 

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00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:42,940
People do not invest, businesses
do not grow, countries do not 

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00:18:42,980 --> 00:18:46,100
grow. 
If there is unrest only in 

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00:18:46,100 --> 00:18:50,220
peaceful conditions, when there 
is everything calm and people 

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00:18:50,220 --> 00:18:52,780
are close to each other, only 
then economy will grow. 

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00:18:59,410 --> 00:19:02,810
Today's episode was produced by 
Jayaraj Singh and Anuja Singh. 

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00:19:03,170 --> 00:19:06,490
For a daily spotlight on people,
ideas and stories that matter, 

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00:19:06,730 --> 00:19:10,410
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